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View Full Version : Um, Artest fans may not wanna read this.



Peck
09-22-2004, 05:06 AM
http://www.indystar.com/articles/6/180617-4686-179.html

I've always said that when the org. wants something put out there publicly they put it out through the star. To me this is just a signal that says that Artest fans may not want to be to comfortable.

As I said when it happened, the Sac. trade did not occur because of the Pacers. The Maloofs put a stop to the trade talk because they were going to convince Peja to stick it out. That trade may never go down, who knows.

But the star Never, & I mean NEVER, makes a dispariging comment about a player like they just did without knowing something is up. Heck, Kravits just admitted that they were involved in the lie about Migranes from the playoffs because they knew the truth but didn't publish it.

Let the gnashing of teeth & wringing of hands begin on the Artest front, but I have a gut feeling that the end is near.

BTW, it wouldn't suprise me if J.O. isn't a little more involved in this right now.

sweabs
09-22-2004, 06:49 AM
That is a very disappointing article.

Looks like I have to update the signature again...I thought Ron was safe...:cry:

fwpacerfan
09-22-2004, 08:12 AM
This is very strange. Peck if the Pacers want to unload a player why would they put an article out like this? That is a sure fire way to scare the entire league away.

It seems to me something else is going on, maybe Kravitz is having a falling out with the team or something. Printing this now makes no sense to me on the Pacers end of things.:confused:

DisplacedKnick
09-22-2004, 08:12 AM
I haven't considered Kravitz quite the Pacers mouthpiece some of the others are - if this was Monteith then Rennie might as well have 'em packed right now.

But if everything in there's true, I'd say Ron-Ron's going to get his walking papers. Bird MAY let him start the season on double secret probation but if he pulls anything, my guess is he gets a team suspension and sits until a trade is made.

Too bad.

efx
09-22-2004, 08:15 AM
They talked about this on cold pizza a few minutes ago.
I don't live in Indiana so I'd appreciate some input from the people who are "closer" to these players.

Now my question is, does Artest have these serious mental problems or is he rather an easy target for the type of sensationalist journalism that ESPN likes to produce?

I the new york media I've mostly heard just good things about him, like his charity involvment for example.

Anyways, just wanted some input :)

Unclebuck
09-22-2004, 08:49 AM
There is nothing new to me in that article. I thought most of that was common knowledge.

I would like to know what Artest's explanation is. Not his public explanation, but what he tells his employer.

One other thing that concerns me is I now last summer, Artest was at Conseco everyday working out. I don't think he has been around this summer (I don't know that for sure, but in all the summer articles I have not read opne word about Artest working out in town) I am not suggesting he is getting fat and lazy, rather that perhaps he has not been in contact with DW, Bird, carlisle.

I'll say it again, Artest is simply too good to trade unles you get a great player in return

Ragnar
09-22-2004, 08:53 AM
Sounds to me like he will be traded this week or very soon (possibly with a deal already in place) so they are letting the star make him out to be the bad guy. That way the casual fans wont be upset about him being traded.

Worst of all it sounds like they are preparing us for him eventually being traded for a basket of muffins. Notice they talked about not being able to get equal value for him.

ABADays
09-22-2004, 08:57 AM
I'm not sure getting a great player in return is going to happen. If this is common knowledge throughout the league, we may not be looking at a player at all but a draft pick.

I'm really disappointed because I was one of the ones who thought he had turned the corner last year (well, until the playoffs). You want to say no sane player would jeapordize his career like this - but then we know that isn't the truth.

Unclebuck
09-22-2004, 08:58 AM
Ragnar and Peck, I just don't see this as the pacers feeding the Star this story. I see this as Kravitz stating what is rather common knowledge in what feels to me a warmed over story.

I would rather move to the present day and found out what is going on right now.

fwpacerfan
09-22-2004, 09:01 AM
If they trade him for 'a bag of muffins' you can go ahead and write this season off. W/O Artest this team will struggle to make the playoffs. Artest is as valuable, and arguably more valuable, than JO is to the success of this team. If the Pacers are starting to 'Spin' this story they have a lot more 'spinning' to do to satisfy me. The fact that Artest lost his cool the last week of the season is no reason to waste an entire season by giving him away.

sweabs
09-22-2004, 09:07 AM
If they trade him for 'a bag of muffins' you can go ahead and write this season off. W/O Artest this team will struggle to make the playoffs. Artest is as valuable, and arguably more valuable, than JO is to the success of this team. If the Pacers are starting to 'Spin' this story they have a lot more 'spinning' to do to satisfy me. The fact that Artest lost his cool the last week of the season is no reason to waste an entire season by giving him away.


Couldn't agree with you more.

Unclebuck was right...you don't trade Artest unless you would get a REAL good player in return.

If this article is true, and we are going to trade Artest - all I have to say is watch out for Ronnie next year...especially in games against us.

Not only are we going to lose a main threat on offense...but an even greater part of our defense...this is all just very upsetting.

Suaveness
09-22-2004, 09:22 AM
Plain and simple: Kravitz is an idiot. One day he'll write about how the Pacers are the greatest in the NBA, the next day he blasts them for being immature. He does the same things with the Colts. He's just an idiot.

Unclebuck
09-22-2004, 09:27 AM
From reading the posts in this thread, I guess this is new info to a lot of you. The new info being Artest's behavior

sweabs
09-22-2004, 09:45 AM
From reading the posts in this thread, I guess this is new info to a lot of you. The new info being Artest's behavior

Well, I was given the impression that the Pacers were done with offseason moves...I heard that there were billboards with Artest going up, etc. I thought his behavioural issues did not extend past missing a meeting...

fwpacerfan
09-22-2004, 09:46 AM
From reading the posts in this thread, I guess this is new info to a lot of you. The new info being Artest's behavior

I've heard/read most of it before. What has me befuddled is the timing. Why now?

indygeezer
09-22-2004, 10:08 AM
Old news re-hashed in a new way. THe fact is training camp is close, BK is stirring the pot to get readership to notice him, and RA still can't handle pressure.

indygeezer
09-22-2004, 10:09 AM
Kravitz isn't the mouthpiece some of you would like to believe. Montieth, on the other hand.......



The truth be spoken.

McKeyFan
09-22-2004, 10:34 AM
The new information is that the migraines were a lie. That makes all news reports about Artest suspect.

The other new information is that the Pacers org has been shopping Ron all summer, despite comments from Carlisle and others.

I don't think Kravitz is a mouthpiece. My guess is he pushed to print some truth that Monteith wouldn't touch and finally got his way. But his editors wouldn't have allowed it unless they could vet Kravitz's assessment of management wanting to trade Ron. Sadly, for us Artest fans, this article is probably all true.

The silver lining may be that higher-ups approved the article only because the trade possibilities are over. In other words, they can afford to tell a little truth now because they don't need good appearances for a trade.

Let's hope so anyway. (That is, if Ron can get his act together.)

Ragnar
09-22-2004, 10:34 AM
Not new UB just suprised that the paper would be airing the dirty laundry. This has all been speculated on here before so its not a total shock. I seem to remember Peck (I think it was Peck) speculating that the migraines were not in fact migraines.

The thing that worries me is that in the past if an article like this were to apear it would be to lessen the impact on the fans that a crappy trade was about to go down. Remember Walsh saying we might lose Brad because thje price was getting to high. It worked on a lot of people in here. Brads money became the issue.

At the time several people on here made a big deal about the extensions that were given to Foster Artest and Bender. I was oposed to the extension Bender got but was ok with Ronnie and Jeff's extension. Now it looks like only Jeff's extention was a good idea. We have already traded one good player for a a bag of expired lunch meat now we are about to trade Ron for (shudders to imagine) Vince Carter or some equally disturbing trade.

Vicious Tyrant
09-22-2004, 11:10 AM
First off, there's nothing to worry about - if Ron is traded, Jon Bender will revolutionize the small forward position.

Lastly, I was unaware the migraine story was an outright lie, was I just slow there or did others realize this?

Secondly, about the timing: my guess is Krazitz is in a slow news time for the NBA so he pushed for the go-ahead to publish the story just to stir up the pot - hopefully to increase some sales (although with the Colts season just starting, my theory might not make much sense).

To conclude, they are lying knaves.

Arcadian
09-22-2004, 11:28 AM
Ron was well known for sitting out because of "injuries" in Chicago. I don't think that he did the same here should come as a surprise.

The info I believe is recycled. I don't believe that this article helps us trade Ron. All it tells me is that Kravitz reads the forum for story ideas.

Harddrive7
09-22-2004, 11:31 AM
Let's just keep Ron, get the ring next season, and then see where were at.

Is it me or does next season seem to be a make or break for this team? Assuming the entire team is intact.

Granville
09-22-2004, 11:47 AM
I think it is pretty clear the Pacers want to move him. Whether that is a good move (I think it is) is open to debate. I'd rather trade a player one year too early than one year too late. I'm afraid we may be getting to the point of diminishing returns already.

Carlisle said at his end of season press conference that he expected significant changes to the roster. Coaches don't generally say those things without feeling pretty sure it will happen. In my opinion, the Al/SJax trade, while big, does not "significantly" change the roster.

Vicious Tyrant
09-22-2004, 11:48 AM
All it tells me is that Kravitz reads the forum for story ideas.

:laugh:

blanket
09-22-2004, 11:50 AM
At the time, the Pacers chose to cover up for Artest -- or tell a baldfaced lie, if you want to be technical. They said he was suffering from migraines. Maybe they just got used to covering for Artest, or, perhaps, they were hoping to maintain his trade value, which will never be higher than it is now.

Of course, he didn't have migraines, a story nobody believed in the first place. A teammate shared the truth that day with The Star, saying, "He had some problems at home."


So, in one paragraph he calls the Pacers organization out on a "baldface lie" and then in the next paragraph implicates his own organization as knowing accomplices in that lie (they didn't report the falsity of the migraine story at the time)... Classy. :rolleyes:

blanket
09-22-2004, 12:00 PM
Like some others have said, this article seems to me like old news that would've seemed more relevant earlier in the season when this news was relatively fresh and the possibility of Artest being traded was much higher.

Kravitz has shown numerous times that he doesn't have much interest in the Pacers, or the NBA for that matter. Now he's letting us know he doesn't think much of Artest. So be it. But writing this story is like trying to stir up a three month old pot -- it's gone cold.

Bball
09-22-2004, 12:15 PM
This is the first 'in media' confirmation I've seen that the migraines were a smokescreen but anyone who has paid attention to what I and some others have said should not be surprised. There have been conflicting statements and actions in the media that should've called the migraines into question as well curious timings. Anyone who didn't stick their head in the sand and not want to see/hear any evil couldn't have avoided it.

Let's not forget his back pain during the West coast trip... or his "actions detrimental to basketball" during the Nets game. Those things put up red flags for some.

And I still don't think we're getting 'everything' though we are getting more than ever before.

One thing mentioned in the article that I found curious yet no one seems to have picked up on is this 'perpetually stormy home life'. We've heard about the one incident in the past but I don't remember reading anything like: 'perpetually stormy home life'. I've not heard that on the forums.

I don't know that we've heard that he was goofing off in practice either. I've not heard this on the forums either.

And Kravitz is claiming to have lockerroom sources for these things so it isn't him reading these forums... unless you want to say he is lying about his sources.

I don't think Kravitz is the official mouthpiece for the Pacers as some at the paper are, tho the whole paper does seem to be 'Pacer controlled' and scoops only happen when the Pacers 'OK' them.

That said, I see a few possibilities here. Obviously, Kravitz has sat on this info for a while. For him to say something 'now' tells me either some other sports entity was about to put it out there and so the Pacers (or Star) didn't want it coming from out of the blue. Possibly there is something bigger in the closet and this was a preemptive strike to lessen that blow or to send the dogs elsewhere (maybe Vecsey snooped something up beside what Walsh tells him on his own).

Or maybe the Pacers have exhausted the possibility of make a good trade with Artest and they now know the league knows Artest is a loose canon and that the Pacers want him moved. So now they want the blow softened because Artest is about to be moved for the best deal out there even if it is a coke and pizza.

-Bball

Kstat
09-22-2004, 12:24 PM
I don't get it. I thought it was pretty common knowledge by now that Artest's "migranes" were fake.....

he blew off Larry Bird.....is Larry supposed to be important or something? I thought his biggest job was still getting Donnie's coffee and doughnuts....

Oh yeah, if the article is dead-on about ROnnie's behaviour, you're REALLY in a tough spot. Because you're not going to win the NBA title if he pulls crap like that. You're also not going to get fair value for him now if he's dealt. So I guess you're dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

From a purely selfish perspective, I certainly fear the pacers a little less because of Ronnie's self-destructive mentality. If he had his head on straight, who knows what could happen.

ImReppinBtown
09-22-2004, 12:54 PM
I dont think we will/can trade Artest. Who could we get for him? Obviously not Peja. Not Carter. So who knows whats going to happen.

fwpacerfan
09-22-2004, 01:08 PM
The new information is that the migraines were a lie. That makes all news reports about Artest suspect.

The other new information is that the Pacers org has been shopping Ron all summer, despite comments from Carlisle and others.

I don't think Kravitz is a mouthpiece. My guess is he pushed to print some truth that Monteith wouldn't touch and finally got his way. But his editors wouldn't have allowed it unless they could vet Kravitz's assessment of management wanting to trade Ron. Sadly, for us Artest fans, this article is probably all true.

The silver lining may be that higher-ups approved the article only because the trade possibilities are over. In other words, they can afford to tell a little truth now because they don't need good appearances for a trade.

Let's hope so anyway. (That is, if Ron can get his act together.)


The more I think about this situation the more I agree with your silver lining. I believe this article was approved by the Pacers but not because the trade possibilities are over. I think this is their way of sending a message to Artest that his antics will not be tolerated. My fear is that something else has happened recently that caused them to feel the need to send this message at this point in time.

TheSauceMaster
09-22-2004, 01:12 PM
Plain and simple: Kravitz is an idiot. One day he'll write about how the Pacers are the greatest in the NBA, the next day he blasts them for being immature. He does the same things with the Colts. He's just an idiot.

:thankyou::thankyou:

Kravitz must be bored or has no good material right now , why not start a storm of controversy , you said it right Suaveness.

He's like a woman going through the change of life , one minute he loves , the next he wants to kill you ;)

dannyboy
09-22-2004, 01:18 PM
Sounds to me like he will be traded this week or very soon (possibly with a deal already in place) so they are letting the star make him out to be the bad guy. That way the casual fans wont be upset about him being traded.

Worst of all it sounds like they are preparing us for him eventually being traded for a basket of muffins. Notice they talked about not being able to get equal value for him.

If the front office wants Artest out so badly, wh wasn't he available to Orlando? Is it that they don't believe in TMac (which I could understand), or they want someone with a smaller price tag (like Peja), or what? I like SJax, but it just seems like they could get more for Artest and Harrington than SJax and a 'basket of muffins'

TMac > SJax and a 'basket of muffins'

dannyboy
09-22-2004, 01:18 PM
Sounds to me like he will be traded this week or very soon (possibly with a deal already in place) so they are letting the star make him out to be the bad guy. That way the casual fans wont be upset about him being traded.

Worst of all it sounds like they are preparing us for him eventually being traded for a basket of muffins. Notice they talked about not being able to get equal value for him.

If the front office wants Artest out so badly, why wasn't he available to Orlando? Is it that they don't believe in TMac (which I could understand), or they want someone with a smaller price tag (like Peja), or what? I like SJax, but it just seems like they could get more for Artest and Harrington than SJax and a 'basket of muffins'

TMac > SJax and a 'basket of muffins'

indygeezer
09-22-2004, 01:18 PM
BK (isn't there something magical about those initials??) accomplished his goal. He stirred the pot and got people talking about his article, the Star, and the Pacers. Now we'll be watching, and reading, to see what happens next. Trade? Comments from the brass? Comments from RA? As long as we're paying attention, it's all good to BK.

As Bill Benner once said on the radio..."It's all about the pub."

Arcadian
09-22-2004, 01:19 PM
"They said" is an awfully nebulous source. It is infered from the above paragraph that it was someone in lockerroom. But really who is "they"? It could be a ballboy for all we know.

"Goofing off in practice" and "bringing problems from home to work" are thin on specifics. What do they really mean?

That one three sentence paragraph was the only piece there that hasn't already been reported else where. Kravitz's giving them so little attention show that he knows how nebulous the sources and vague the charges really are.

I have no doubt that Ron is disruptive and that he is a candidate for being traded but Kravitz doesn't try on his Pacer's coverage. The reason Kravitz wrote this story was he was asked to write a story on the Pacers and rehashing the Ron's summer headlines was the best he could think of.

RWB
09-22-2004, 01:32 PM
I have no doubt that Ron is disruptive and that he is a candidate for being traded but Kravitz doesn't try on his Pacer's coverage. The reason Kravitz wrote this story was he was asked to write a story on the Pacers and rehashing the Ron's summer headlines was the best he could think of.

Agree completely. Unless Ron (other than the MVP quote) has done something else then Dan Kravitz, sorry Bob Rather, the article guy is just blowing in the wind. Come on Kravitz get into the locker room and get some real news. But that won't happen because the players keep their mouth shut or do the PC thing except for Ron. Before anyone thinks JO is the one saying this stuff remember his interviews last year? He did hundreds and every one was bland.:p

TheSauceMaster
09-22-2004, 01:38 PM
If anything this just really killed his trade value , you would think there is alot more floating around the league than this almost common knowledge stuff. I hope they don't trade Ron off for a bag of muffins , I hope Ron use this as motivation to improve and prove everyone wrong.

If you wanna talk about team chemistry this is something that could do alot of damage in the long run , I remember hearing that Ron never felt like he was a part of the team and the guys really had to encourage him.

I pray to God Ron does the right thing , but I fear he may not by his previous actions , I hope the team isn't going to just shut him out cause if they do , welcome back the psycho Ron.

For someone with such high trade value I sure didn't see alot of chatter this summer , maybe the rest of the league knows more ? I like Ron and think he is a great player , I just don't think he thinks with his brain sometimes.

It's so easy to point fingers after the fact , if Ron was that much of a disruption then he should have been benched in the playoffs or whatever. Ron was a Factor of why we lost , but he wasn't the whole factor and there many reasons why , but everyone will always point to the easiest target.

Doug
09-22-2004, 02:15 PM
I believe this article was approved by the Pacers but not because the trade possibilities are over. I think this is their way of sending a message to Artest that his antics will not be tolerated. My fear is that something else has happened recently that caused them to feel the need to send this message at this point in time.

I tend to agree with that viewpoint.


If people honestly believe that Bob Kravitz knew something the rest of the league and fans didn't already know, and by publishing this he is solely responsible for killing Ron's trade value............


And with that one.


I need to post in these threads earlier so I can say more than "I agree". :-)

Natston
09-22-2004, 02:17 PM
I stopped reading sports news from the the Star for several reasons...









And after reading Kravitz's article and gauging some people's responses to said article, I now remember one of the reasons. :rolleyes: Bob is jackass, simple as that. He'd probably would've been fired by now if he didn't grab so much attention with his wish-washy style that in the end agrees with everyone's opinions because he's never consistent in his own. If anyone else had written that article or if Bob was the fifth in the series, I would probably be more worried. But as of right now I am :unimpressed: ....

sweabs
09-22-2004, 02:25 PM
If people honestly believe that Bob Kravitz knew something the rest of the league and fans didn't already know, and by publishing this he is solely responsible for killing Ron's trade value............


Not only does it kill his trade value...but it must kill his self-esteem, along with his reputation among fans, and most importantly teammates.

MagicRat
09-22-2004, 02:29 PM
...but it must kill his self-esteem.....


Ron "I shoulda been the MVP" Artest????

sweabs
09-22-2004, 02:51 PM
...but it must kill his self-esteem.....


Ron "I shoulda been the MVP" Artest????




Ugh...I knew that one was coming.

You never know...Ron comes out to the media with that big man attitude...but inside he might be really upset with himself after reading this article...

Doug
09-22-2004, 02:59 PM
Perhaps the article is the Pacers' response to his "I'm the best player on this team" talk.

Roy Munson
09-22-2004, 03:01 PM
The prospect of Artest being traded makes the Sjax trade even more understandable. With SJax they have a physical player who can play the 2 or the 3. Even though he's more of a 2 than a 3, it still makes a lot of sense if the Pacers were convinced that they could move Artest to another team.

If Artest was moved, then Sjax would probably become more of a 3 than a 2, depending on who they got in return. It would also mean that Freddy was a bigger part of the rotation which is something I think they intended to happen all along.

Anthem
09-22-2004, 03:27 PM
I want an apology from several posters whose names I can't remember. Anyone who ever said that I.Thomas "coddled" or "enabled" Ron Artest obviously didn't know what they were talking about. This takes that to a new level.

In other news, this doesn't change my opinion a bit. Bobby K may not see any improvement, but I do. Two seasons ago, he was great right up until the All-Star break. This season, he was great up until the ECFs. That's a big improvement. If he improves that much again this season, we have nothing to worry about.

As long as I see Ron continue to improve, I ain't gonna worry.

Kegboy
09-22-2004, 03:28 PM
I've got to agree with Doug, so much above I want to quote and agree on, but I'll try and recap:

1. Kravitz is an idiot. Plain and simple. I've been saying that since about the second week he came on at the Star. For a guy who supposedly went to IU, he has repeatedly shown he doesn't know jack about basketball (among many other things.)

That's why I wholely reject any notion that the Pacers are "using him" to put this out. If it was Monteith or Sekou, yeah, sure, I'd bite. But Kravitz has never defended PS&E. In fact, he's gone out of his way to slam them at every opportunity. He's not a plant, he's a hack.

2. If the Star had any notion of complicity in "covering up" for Artest, they wouldn't have run this story, let alone put it as a top-fold, banner headline like they did (Kravitz never has a "lead" story, and before you ask, no, I don't subscribe to the POS Star, I saw someone else's.) Monteith and Sekou simply reported what I'm sure David Benner told everyone, that Ron had migraines. It's not like they've been pulling a Rather defending that as irrefutable.

3. Okay, now that the media conspiracy is out of the way, let's look at the impact. I'm interested in seeing how the Pacers respond to this. They have become very adept at using Pacers.com as their mouthpiece on such controversies. I'll be very surprised if Donnie or Larry doesn't come out and call this balderdash in the next couple days.

Of course, that doesn't mean it is. Could just mean they're trying to mitigate the bad press, either to protect themselves from Ron taking offense, or to protect his trade value.

4. So, are we actually gonna trade him? Hell, I don't know. I seriously doubt we're gonna drop him for a basket of muffins, though (mmm, muffins.) If we were, we would of already. And we sure as hell wouldn't have traded Al. I can't comprehend possibly letting Al go if you think you'll get rid of Ron, too. That's why a lot of us said back during Peja-gate, "If we still had Al, hell yes I'd do that trade."

5. Which brings us to the most important thing, which is what happens on the court. I'm with UB on this issue. I don't care if they've got Ron locked up like Hannibal Lecter between games (subtle Magic Rat cue), as long as he still brings it on the court. I don't prescribe to the notion that Ron cost us the ECF. One play (as stupid as it was), or even one player (as looney as he may be), does not make the difference in a 7 game series.

6. So to wrap up, I'll say what I've been saying all along. Ron's "eccentricities" don't change the fact that he's a remarkable player, and his skills are even more important now that we've lost Al. As long as he's not pulling a Sprewell, I don't want to lose him.

But, it's not my decision, and as we should all know, TPTB don't give a crap what we think. But if we do trade him, I can't see a scenario where we'd be nearly as good as we are now.

Vicious Tyrant
09-22-2004, 03:38 PM
Could this be an attempt by the Pacers to have had someone talk to Kravitz, give him some sensational headline stuff, knowing an article would be written as an effort to motivate Artest? I mean, who knows how the guy thinks - maybe this is motivation for him. Sounds like a Phil Jackson kind of move, but who knows?

Natston
09-22-2004, 03:39 PM
In the words of Doug, I "agree" with Kegboy...

obnoxiousmodesty
09-22-2004, 04:52 PM
If the online edition of the Star had an ignore feature the way message boards do, Kravitz would be the first one blacklisted by me.

While the issues Kravitz brings up may have some validity, he deserves no consideration as a knowledgeable journalist in any way. His writing is always ill-timed and half-assed at best.

Unclebuck
09-22-2004, 05:07 PM
.

3. Okay, now that the media conspiracy is out of the way, let's look at the impact. I'm interested in seeing how the Pacers respond to this. They have become very adept at using Pacers.com as their mouthpiece on such controversies. I'll be very surprised if Donnie or Larry doesn't come out and call this balderdash in the next couple days.

Of course, that doesn't mean it is. Could just mean they're trying to mitigate the bad press, either to protect themselves from Ron taking offense, or to protect his trade value.

4. So, are we actually gonna trade him? Hell, I don't know. I seriously doubt we're gonna drop him for a basket of muffins, though (mmm, muffins.) If we were, we would of already. And we sure as hell wouldn't have traded Al. I can't comprehend possibly letting Al go if you think you'll get rid of Ron, too. That's why a lot of us said back during Peja-gate, "If we still had Al, hell yes I'd do that trade."

5. Which brings us to the most important thing, which is what happens on the court. I'm with UB on this issue. I don't care if they've got Ron locked up like Hannibal Lecter between games (subtle Magic Rat cue), as long as he still brings it on the court. I don't prescribe to the notion that Ron cost us the ECF. One play (as stupid as it was), or even one player (as looney as he may be), does not make the difference in a 7 game series.

6. So to wrap up, I'll say what I've been saying all along. Ron's "eccentricities" don't change the fact that he's a remarkable player, and his skills are even more important now that we've lost Al. As long as he's not pulling a Sprewell, I don't want to lose him.

But, it's not my decision, and as we should all know, TPTB don't give a crap what we think. But if we do trade him, I can't see a scenario where we'd be nearly as good as we are now.



Just want to say that I could not agree anymore than I do.

If Ron is traded "I CAN'T SEE A SCENARIO WHERE WE'D BE NEARLY AS GOOD AS WE ARE NOW"

That is so true. There are but a handful of players who would make the pacers better on the court

Lord Helmet
09-22-2004, 05:52 PM
Here let me give my :twocents: DO NOT TRADE RON.Thank you.

SoupIsGood
09-22-2004, 06:02 PM
I really wouldn't be surprised if Ronnie were traded for a Kelvin Cato-type player/draft pick.

Trading Ron for a servicable center and an average SF + Draft pick might be our best option, if they really want to dump him.

ChicagoJ
09-22-2004, 06:04 PM
I'm continuing my vow of silence on the Ron Artest topic.

No I'm not.

This is a team of people. High-achieving people with personalities and egos. This isn't some fairy-tale land where all the hard feelings and disagreements disappear when the players step on the court.

They may be "worse" on paper, and possibly on the court during the regular season. But they may be a better team, especially in the playoffs when the pressure is on, just by subtracting him.

I agree with the assessment that this was completely a team-planted a response to Ron's stupid, yet inappropriate comments in Slam. Montieth couldn't write this one, it's a column not a news story.

I'm tellin' ya, he's a dancer with a capital "C".

If we keep him, last season will prove to be the "high water mark" for the currently assembled team.

TheSauceMaster
09-22-2004, 06:13 PM
I really wouldn't be surprised if Ronnie were traded for a Kelvin Cato-type player/draft pick.

Trading Ron for a servicable center and an average SF + Draft pick might be our best option, if they really want to dump him.




Doesn't make sense to me , they coulda traded Ron for much better , why wait til now to spill the beans :confused::confused:

Does anyone know ethier way in the Tmac thing was Ron Offered , I don't think he was ..If your not happy with a player then the Pacers blew there chance already.

It's already been said Slam isn't a very crediable magazine and probably the worst Writer for the Star is Bob Kravitz. I hear alot of people bang on Mark Patrick and his Pacers hate , Well Bob Kravitz is just as Bad.

I have no doubts in my mind Ron will improve if this whole situation doesn't derail it all , If I didn't believe Ron would improve I wouldn't throw my support behind him as much as I have , Ron isn't my favorite current Pacer , Jermanie O Neal is ...so I am not some Ron homer who is playing blind.

SoupIsGood
09-22-2004, 06:20 PM
I'm continuing my vow of silence the Ron Artest topic.

No I'm not.

This is a team of people. High-achieving people with personalities and egos. This isn't some fairy-tale land where all the hard feelings and disagreements disappear when the players step on the court.

They may be "worse" on paper, and possibly on the court during the regular season. But they may be a better team, especially in the playoffs when the pressure is on, just by subtracting him.

I agree with the assessment that this was completely a team-planted a response to Ron's stupid, yet inappropriate comments in Slam. Montieth couldn't write this one, it's a column not a news story.

I'm tellin' ya, he's a dancer with a capital "C".

If we keep him, last season will prove to be the "high water mark" for the currently assembled team.

I completly agree with you. I thought about bringing up the addition by subtraction thing, but figured I would get slaughterd by the Artest supporters.

The Montieth thing too, while reading this thread I was thinking that he couldn't have written something like this anyway, but I don't read he paper often, so I figured he throws some columns in every now and again.

SoupIsGood
09-22-2004, 06:21 PM
I really wouldn't be surprised if Ronnie were traded for a Kelvin Cato-type player/draft pick.

Trading Ron for a servicable center and an average SF + Draft pick might be our best option, if they really want to dump him.




Doesn't make sense to me , they coulda traded Ron for much better , why wait til now to spill the beans :confused::confused:

Does anyone know ethier way in the Tmac thing was Ron Offered , I don't think he was ..If your not happy with a player then the Pacers blew there chance already.

It's already been said Slam isn't a very crediable magazine and probably the worst Writer for the Star is Bob Kravitz. I hear alot of people bang on Mark Patrick and his Pacers hate , Well Bob Kravitz is just as Bad.

I have no doubts in my mind Ron will improve if this whole situation doesn't derail it all , If I didn't believe Ron would improve I wouldn't throw my support behind him as much as I have , Ron isn't my favorite current Pacer , Jermanie O Neal is ...so I am not some Ron homer who is playing blind.







I'm under the impression Ron was offered for McGrady. But not Tinsley.

ChicagoJ
09-22-2004, 06:21 PM
I think we saw from several sources (ESPN, Orlando Sentinel, maybe Montieth's Q&A, I don't remember the exact ones) that the Pacers offer was Ron + Jon but since Tracy listed Houston as his #1 choice Orlando never called us to negotiate.

Remember, there was a discussion that the Pacers only offered two players for McGrady, and Ron + Jon was the only combination that worked. IIRC, Al + Ron and Al + Jon both required Freddie to make it work $$$-wise.

Unclebuck
09-22-2004, 10:17 PM
"Addition by subtraction"

That is an interesting theory. So I guess if Ron is traded, the Pacers will win 65 games this season. Great, make the trade. :rolleyes: Oh and yes a sure championship.


Just think the Pacers might actually be a decent team if they trade Ronnie.

Unclebuck
09-22-2004, 10:27 PM
This was on the Rats forum.





"Artest was in Conseco last week at least two times

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was watching him practicing the drills ad shooting the ball on practice court with assistant couches. Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird was there sitting and chatting, also Larry was saying something to coaches while they were working out with Artest. I do not think that this would happen if he is not in Pacers future plans. He is safe and our second best player. Just realize that people, we can not win Championship without Artest in the near future. That is why Jermaine will eat the words what Artest said about MVP and go forward to achieve a common goal "RING"!

MagicRat
09-22-2004, 10:39 PM
I don't know how the Artest thing will play out, but you Artest fans had better pay a visit to 96th and Masters Road to see the Artest "One Goal" billboard while you have the chance.......

tora tora
09-22-2004, 10:52 PM
I don't know how the Artest thing will play out, but you Artest fans had better pay a visit to 96th and Masters Road to see the Artest "One Goal" billboard while you have the chance.......


grab a camera, post each of the billboards on the forum...

Peck
09-22-2004, 11:22 PM
Ok, now that I've had some time to digest this let me go at it.

1. For those who discount the article from the star because it is Kravits & not Montieth or Smith, let me say that I agree with you. To a point. If this had been Montieth I would have already been on the phone with the suicide hotline trying to put them in contact with U.B.;) But since it is Kravits there is always the possiblilty that he just happened to read the Slam interview & decided that this would be the time to write this. However I still want to state he has editors. Those editors are close with the Pacers & if they didn't want it out my gut opinion is that it would not be out. But as you all said it is Kravits, so there is always the possibility that he is just chucking poo at the fan hoping it flies on something.

2. There is a very very very good chance that somebody got word from J.O. about that article & he was not happy. Montieth nor Smith may have wanted to write that article because they have to deal with Artest, Kravits doesn't have to. Look J.O. has matured by leaps & bounds, but there is always going to be a part of him that is about him (that btw is not always a bad thing) so the talk of who was the best player & who was the M.V.P. of our team probably won't sit well with him.

3. The Pacers may have been ok with this because every G.M. in the league knows about this crap with Ron. It was the people in Min. who let us know that Ron had a tirade in the locker room after the game there. The Bulls people have known for years & you don't think they talk to people. I. Thomas knows all about him. People, G.M.'s don't read the sports pages or opinion boards to get their info. So Kravits isn't letting out any dirty little seceret for the league. What he is doing though is letting the casual fans know & some of the die hard Ron fans know what were saying all last season. What was going on behind the scenes wasn't matching up to what was happening on the court. It is not a love fest in the locker room.

4. To be honest with you I have no idea what is going to happen here. I don't know if he'll be here at the start of the season or not. But one thing I know for sure is this. For anybody that says that we won't win anything without Ron Artest I have to ask if there is a real possiblilty that we can win anything with Ron Artest. Ron is a great player, there is no doubt or argument about it. However Ron is a nutcase who has a dramatic effect on the teams morale.

I said at the beginning of last season that it would take a toll on the players if they had to keep making Ron feel like "one of the family". It's just to much work to do your job & make somebody else do theirs as well only to have them spit on you by saying they are the main man on the team.

Here is my other gut reaction to this. Ron is burning bridges & he is doing it on purpose. You don't say that the 4th p.g. on the bench is the best pg on the team. What is J.T. supposed to think about that? You don't say you are the best player on a team. What is the franchise player (J.O.) supposed to think about that? My guess is he has heard all of the talk about trades & he doesn't care if he is here next season or not.

Ron may or may not be here next season, but if he is all I can say is that we will have a meltdown before the playoffs once again.

It is a damn shame, the man can play basketball. But sometimes that's just not enough.

MagicRat
09-22-2004, 11:30 PM
I don't care if they've got Ron locked up like Hannibal Lecter between games (subtle Magic Rat cue), as long as he still brings it on the court.

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/ronniballector.jpg

Lord Helmet
09-22-2004, 11:35 PM
I don't care if they've got Ron locked up like Hannibal Lecter between games (subtle Magic Rat cue), as long as he still brings it on the court.

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/ronniballector.jpg


:laugh:

MagicRat
09-22-2004, 11:44 PM
"Addition by subtraction"

That is an interesting theory. So I guess if Ron is traded, the Pacers will win 65 games this season. Great, make the trade. :rolleyes: Oh and yes a sure championship.

Just think the Pacers might actually be a decent team if they trade Ronnie.



Here's UB posing with his new rose-colored Ron glasses......:p

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/roncoloredglasses.jpg

Anthem
09-23-2004, 12:13 AM
But one thing I know for sure is this. For anybody that says that we won't win anything without Ron Artest I have to ask if there is a real possiblilty that we can win anything with Ron Artest. Ron is a great player, there is no doubt or argument about it. However Ron is a nutcase who has a dramatic effect on the teams morale.

Really? What kind of effect, exactly? If he'd been a better influence, would we have won more than 61 games? Would we have beaten Detroit if Ron had been easier to be around?

No and no, as far as I'm concerned. Look, I want Ron to get his head together as much as anyone. But I don't want to watch a witch hunt.

MagicRat
09-23-2004, 12:41 AM
Worst of all it sounds like they are preparing us for him eventually being traded for a basket of muffins.

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/artestmuffins2.gif

Kegboy
09-23-2004, 12:44 AM
I don't care if they've got Ron locked up like Hannibal Lecter between games (subtle Magic Rat cue), as long as he still brings it on the court.

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/ronniballector.jpg



Not to shabby. But Rat, I just don't understand why you added yourself in with Larry and Ron. :confused:

Also, after I added the avatar, I noticed the Franken quote was still there. The combination is just too strange to pass up. :cool:

Kegboy
09-23-2004, 12:45 AM
Worst of all it sounds like they are preparing us for him eventually being traded for a basket of muffins.

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/artestmuffins2.gif




:lolchair:

You know what, this forum is so much better when we've actually got something to talk about.

Kstat
09-23-2004, 12:50 AM
Worst of all it sounds like they are preparing us for him eventually being traded for a basket of muffins.

Are you trying to say David Harrison is behind this?:o

geetee
09-23-2004, 05:35 AM
Has anyone read the entire Slam magazine article?

Not only does Ron talk about being the Pacers MVP, but he also talks about how he was the MVP of the league, he said he wanted to be on the Olympic team so bad that he would of been the water and ball boy and even would of gave the coaches and player massages. In addition, he said he may decide one year to quit playing defense altogether (so he wouldn't be so tired on offense) and average 30 to 35 points per game.

Is Ron feeding the media machine? Is he laughing his butt off now? Is he casting out his bait only to be taken hook, line and sinker by Kravitz?

Maybe... maybe not.

Personally, I believe Ron is going no where but here this year. Read further down the article; Ron states that he should at least of been considered for the Olympic team since all the "top players" decided not to go. He then proceeds to list those top players... and guess who the first name out of his mouth is... ahead of Garnett, Shaq and Kobi... it's none other than... Jermain O'neal.

Peck
09-23-2004, 07:54 AM
But one thing I know for sure is this. For anybody that says that we won't win anything without Ron Artest I have to ask if there is a real possiblilty that we can win anything with Ron Artest. Ron is a great player, there is no doubt or argument about it. However Ron is a nutcase who has a dramatic effect on the teams morale.

Really? What kind of effect, exactly? If he'd been a better influence, would we have won more than 61 games? Would we have beaten Detroit if Ron had been easier to be around?

No and no, as far as I'm concerned. Look, I want Ron to get his head together as much as anyone. But I don't want to watch a witch hunt.




Really? You don't honestly beleive that somebody who had to be begged by the entire team to get on board of the outbound plane from Miami wouldn't have any kind of detrimental effect on the team during a deep playoff run? You don't think a guy who goofed around during the E.C. finals practices & refused to go with the team on a do or die game flight wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the team?

You don't think a guy who openly criticized the offense being forced through O'neal deciding at the end of a do or die game to go on his own & start throwing up unbeleiveable shots wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the team?

That's just the playoffs. That's just what is open public knowledge. What else went on behind the scenese we don't know?

Would we have won more regular season games? Probably not. Would we have beaten the Pistons? Who knows. That is just speculation & really to talk like that takes respect away from Detroit, because at the end of the day the were just better. But to say that Ron Artest having yet another issue during the E.C. finals cannot just be written off as having no effect on the team.

fwpacerfan
09-23-2004, 08:20 AM
But one thing I know for sure is this. For anybody that says that we won't win anything without Ron Artest I have to ask if there is a real possiblilty that we can win anything with Ron Artest. Ron is a great player, there is no doubt or argument about it. However Ron is a nutcase who has a dramatic effect on the teams morale.

Really? What kind of effect, exactly? If he'd been a better influence, would we have won more than 61 games? Would we have beaten Detroit if Ron had been easier to be around?

No and no, as far as I'm concerned. Look, I want Ron to get his head together as much as anyone. But I don't want to watch a witch hunt.




Really? You don't honestly beleive that somebody who had to be begged by the entire team to get on board of the outbound plane from Miami wouldn't have any kind of detrimental effect on the team during a deep playoff run? You don't think a guy who goofed around during the E.C. finals practices & refused to go with the team on a do or die game flight wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the team?

You don't think a guy who openly criticized the offense being forced through O'neal deciding at the end of a do or die game to go on his own & start throwing up unbeleiveable shots wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the team?

That's just the playoffs. That's just what is open public knowledge. What else went on behind the scenese we don't know?

Would we have won more regular season games? Probably not. Would we have beaten the Pistons? Who knows. That is just speculation & really to talk like that takes respect away from Detroit, because at the end of the day the were just better. But to say that Ron Artest having yet another issue during the E.C. finals cannot just be written off as having no effect on the team.



Guess what Peck - without Artest we wouldn't have been playing the Pistons - we would've lost to Miami or Boston (provided we could have somehow made the playoffs)

I take that back we would've lost to the Pistons - IN THE 1ST ROUND!

I think Hicks is behind this. You have to admit this place has been dead lately. Partly because many of us like other sports, namely the NFL and partly because this is a dead time in the NBA. So Hicks somehow gets Kravitz to release this story knowing that it will drive up message board traffic!:chin:

Peck
09-23-2004, 09:32 AM
So let me get this straight.

The Pacers suck, Ron Artest rules. Is that pretty much the message I'm getting from you Artest fans?

My God, Ron Artest isn't just the M.V.P. of the team or even the league I guess we need to start talking about him in the same breath as Wilt & Jordan.

Come on guys, the Pacers are a team. Ron Artest is a very valuable memeber of that team but he is just one of 5 starters & one of 12 players on the active roster.

If Ron blew an ACL are you guys saying we are a first round exit team?

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 09:42 AM
Ok, now that I've had some time to digest this let me go at it.

1. For those who discount the article from the star because it is Kravits & not Montieth or Smith, let me say that I agree with you. To a point. If this had been Montieth I would have already been on the phone with the suicide hotline trying to put them in contact with U.B.;) But since it is Kravits there is always the possiblilty that he just happened to read the Slam interview & decided that this would be the time to write this. However I still want to state he has editors. Those editors are close with the Pacers & if they didn't want it out my gut opinion is that it would not be out. But as you all said it is Kravits, so there is always the possibility that he is just chucking poo at the fan hoping it flies on something.

2. There is a very very very good chance that somebody got word from J.O. about that article & he was not happy. Montieth nor Smith may have wanted to write that article because they have to deal with Artest, Kravits doesn't have to. Look J.O. has matured by leaps & bounds, but there is always going to be a part of him that is about him (that btw is not always a bad thing) so the talk of who was the best player & who was the M.V.P. of our team probably won't sit well with him.

3. The Pacers may have been ok with this because every G.M. in the league knows about this crap with Ron. It was the people in Min. who let us know that Ron had a tirade in the locker room after the game there. The Bulls people have known for years & you don't think they talk to people. I. Thomas knows all about him. People, G.M.'s don't read the sports pages or opinion boards to get their info. So Kravits isn't letting out any dirty little seceret for the league. What he is doing though is letting the casual fans know & some of the die hard Ron fans know what were saying all last season. What was going on behind the scenes wasn't matching up to what was happening on the court. It is not a love fest in the locker room.

4. To be honest with you I have no idea what is going to happen here. I don't know if he'll be here at the start of the season or not. But one thing I know for sure is this. For anybody that says that we won't win anything without Ron Artest I have to ask if there is a real possiblilty that we can win anything with Ron Artest. Ron is a great player, there is no doubt or argument about it. However Ron is a nutcase who has a dramatic effect on the teams morale.

I said at the beginning of last season that it would take a toll on the players if they had to keep making Ron feel like "one of the family". It's just to much work to do your job & make somebody else do theirs as well only to have them spit on you by saying they are the main man on the team.

Here is my other gut reaction to this. Ron is burning bridges & he is doing it on purpose. You don't say that the 4th p.g. on the bench is the best pg on the team. What is J.T. supposed to think about that? You don't say you are the best player on a team. What is the franchise player (J.O.) supposed to think about that? My guess is he has heard all of the talk about trades & he doesn't care if he is here next season or not.

Ron may or may not be here next season, but if he is all I can say is that we will have a meltdown before the playoffs once again.

It is a damn shame, the man can play basketball. But sometimes that's just not enough.

:amen: :gopacers:

indygeezer
09-23-2004, 10:15 AM
Peck that is an excellent analysis. I think it is probably how 99% of us really feel about the situation.

I'll just 2nd JAy's....AMEN to that.

grace
09-23-2004, 10:33 AM
Could this be an attempt by the Pacers to have had someone talk to Kravitz, give him some sensational headline stuff, knowing an article would be written as an effort to motivate Artest? I mean, who knows how the guy thinks - maybe this is motivation for him. Sounds like a Phil Jackson kind of move, but who knows?

Ron may be a lot of things including the biggest :maniac: :disturbed: :crazy:we've ever seen, but he's not stupid enough to listen to what that putz Kravitz has to say about anything.

Anthem
09-23-2004, 10:50 AM
So let me get this straight.

The Pacers suck, Ron Artest rules. Is that pretty much the message I'm getting from you Artest fans?

My God, Ron Artest isn't just the M.V.P. of the team or even the league I guess we need to start talking about him in the same breath as Wilt & Jordan.

Yes, Peck, that's exactly what we're saying. Thanks for listening. Always nice to know you've been heard and understood.

Peck
09-23-2004, 11:08 AM
Anthem that wasn't directed at you. Other posters were saying the Pacers would be lucky to make the playoffs & even if they did we would lose in the first round to the Pistons.

I just thought that saying we would be mediocre without Ron was a little much. We were still a good team with or without him. We are just a better team with him when he has his head on right.

indygeezer
09-23-2004, 11:14 AM
I will admite Artest is important. but how did the Pacers do when Artest was out of the lineup this past season. They were better than .500

I dont know if the Pacers would have beaten the Heat, but as already stated, NOBODY is bigger than the team.



<gulp, can't believe I'm saying this>

When ROn was out of the line-up we had Al to fill in for him...oh wait...Al blew that chance didn't he?

He really stunk up the place when he had his opportunity. So WHO DID TAKE UP THE SLACK???

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 11:19 AM
JO, Tinsley, Foster, Fred Jones.

Kegboy
09-23-2004, 11:49 AM
Ron may be a lot of things including the biggest :maniac: :disturbed: :crazy:we've ever seen, but he's not stupid enough to listen to what that putz Kravitz has to say about anything.


:applaud:

indygeezer
09-23-2004, 12:05 PM
In reality, ANYBODY who sees something written about themselves is going to sit up and take notice of what is written. It's just human nature. Sure we may say WTF and WTH but inside, we notice. Even if we're thick skinned enough to let it sluff off, we've noticed and we'll remember what was said.

Unclebuck
09-23-2004, 12:09 PM
If Ron blew an ACL are you guys saying we are a first round exit team?


Peck, let me first say that you have made a very good case. Difficult to argue with what you are saying. In my case love is blind, and I love Artest as a player, so I don't really ses things as clearly as I should

But, I do want to address your statement above. Jay will love this as well.

I beleive that Artest is worth 15 wins, so if you take Artest away, the Pacers would have won 46 games last season and that would have put them what 4th or 5th, and yes they easily could have lost to the Heat or Hhornets in the first round.

So to answer your question, Pacers would lost in the first round of the playoffs without Ronnie.

Peck you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron has on a game.

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 12:22 PM
I was certainly more in favor of "addition through subtraction" when Al was still here.

I don't really advocate trading Ron for "a bag of chips" anymore for two reasons: (I) I've finally decided that he's a helluva ballplayer, and he might be the best one-on-one player on the planet; and (b) Al's gone, so there isn't a "reasonably good replacement waiting in the wings to re-claim the starting spot that was taken away while he was injured."

Clearly, if we just subtract him from the currently-assembled roster, its a 0.500 team.

Here's a question,

Would you rather (1) be 0.500 and lose in the first or second round because you just aren't good enough to go any farther or (ii) win 55+ and lose in the second or third round because the players you can depend on during the regular season can't be relied on when the pressure is on?

I think the Pacers are taking a big gamble on winning a championship for Uncle Reggie if Artest is on the roster for next season's playoffs.

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 12:34 PM
Peck you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron has on a game.

I don't think so. I think you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron's loonie-ness has on the people around him.

Vicious Tyrant
09-23-2004, 12:35 PM
Here's a "just for the halibut" question:

Given the "situation" with Ron, would you rather have Ron as is (question mark about mental health, great one-on-one defender, very nice offensive production), or Heavy D circa 1995 (great team defender, stubborn refusal to meet offensive potential, great passer and offensive initiator)?

What the hey, its September....

beast23
09-23-2004, 01:09 PM
Peck, I also think you've offered an excellent analysis.

The only area where I might take exception is your insinuation that he is intentionally burning his bridges.

I fully understand that a person is responsibile for his own actions. And that Ron is certainly taking more than his share of "low roads".

But I really think that he craves attention and love so much that he is absolutely freaking compulsive. Who knows? Maybe bipolar without appropriate meds?

In doing many of the things that he does, I just don't think he makes a conscious choice to commit the act. It's like the little demon on his shoulder is compelled to initiate the act before whatever conscience Ron has is capable of kicking in.

But being the only poster on here with "BEAST" as part of his handle, it's obvious that I'm as big an Artest fan as anyone. But I will go on record with the following:

Assuming the Kravitz article is gospel, there is no way in hell that you keep Artest on your roster. You don't retain a player that, intended or not, has basically declared himself a cancer.

I agree with Buck that losing Artest will cost us some toughness and it will cost us some wins. I can't put a number on it. Maybe Buck is right. Maybe the number is 15. Maybe even more.... or less.

But you don't keep Artest around for another 5 years wreaking havoc on the psyche of his teammates.

If it's fixable, then dammit it's time to put Artest on "zero-tolerance notice" and suspend his *** for every even minor deviation and get the problem fixed.

And on the other side of the coin, if Kravitz's story contains significant inaccuracies, then Walsh and Bird should quickly step up and set the story straight, and run Kravitz out of town.

indygeezer
09-23-2004, 01:57 PM
Peck, I also think you've offered an excellent analysis.

The only area where I might take exception is your insinuation that he is intentionally burning his bridges.

I fully understand that a person is responsibile for his own actions. And that Ron is certainly taking more than his share of "low roads".

But I really think that he craves attention and love so much that he is absolutely freaking compulsive. Who knows? Maybe bipolar without appropriate meds?

In doing many of the things that he does, I just don't think he makes a conscious choice to commit the act. It's like the little demon on his shoulder is compelled to initiate the act before whatever conscience Ron has is capable of kicking in.

But being the only poster on here with "BEAST" as part of his handle, it's obvious that I'm as big an Artest fan as anyone. But I will go on record with the following:

Assuming the Kravitz article is gospel, there is no way in hell that you keep Artest on your roster. You don't retain a player that, intended or not, has basically declared himself a cancer.

I agree with Buck that losing Artest will cost us some toughness and it will cost us some wins. I can't put a number on it. Maybe Buck is right. Maybe the number is 15. Maybe even more.... or less.

But you don't keep Artest around for another 5 years wreaking havoc on the psyche of his teammates.

If it's fixable, then dammit it's time to put Artest on "zero-tolerance notice" and suspend his *** for every even minor deviation and get the problem fixed.

And on the other side of the coin, if Kravitz's story contains significant inaccuracies, then Walsh and Bird should quickly step up and set the story straight, and run Kravitz out of town.


BONG

BONG

A winner of a post. I have got to agree with the "bipolar with out the proper meds" thought. I've thought of that for a long time. I've mentioned before what a devastating effect being around a person like that can have on you and that is why I'm fairly certain it's time to cut bait with Ron.

fwpacerfan
09-23-2004, 02:03 PM
Peck you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron has on a game.

I don't think so. I think you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron's loonie-ness has on the people around him.

I'm not convinced that Ron's behavior affected this team as much as the Piston's players did. So what you guys are saying is that the main reason the Pacers lost to the Pistons is because of Artest? If Artest is such a cancer why did it not show up until the ECF? Don't try to tell me there wasn't pressure before then because they had their backs against the wall in the Miami series. I think a number of things came together at the same time. No one will convince me that this team is better off without Artest.

Unclebuck
09-23-2004, 02:32 PM
Peck you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron has on a game.

I don't think so. I think you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron's loonie-ness has on the people around him.


OK, this is a point I have been trying to addess all summer long.

Pacers won 61 games for a reason, that does not happen by accident.

From reading this forum all summer long I would have to believe there are only two valid reasons why the pacers won 61 games.

1) Great coaching
2) J.O.

That is it, now is that enough to win 61 games? Because it seems many of you think that Reggie is too old, Jeff can't score, Artest is doing almost as much harm as he is god, Al was selfish, Tinsley is average defensively and can't shoot.

I guess they won 61 games with smoke and mirrors. or maybe, just maybe, Artest was a huge factor in the pacers success. Becaue great coahcing and J.O will get you to maybe .500

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 02:37 PM
I thought it was widely known that Bulls wanted Ron on medication, but he refused to take it. Let's put it this way, it was widely believed up here in the Windy City that the main reason the Bulls were shopping him around was related to his refusal to take the medication.

These aren't new problems. They may have been suppressed, publicly, last season. We don't officially know how bad it was *behind the scenes* last season? But it seems that every time there's been a story about a problem with Ron, it has turned out to be true.

I thought Ron's benching for "conduct detrimental to winning" against the Nets last winter happened very quickly - indicating to me that something else had to have happened to cause Rick to be watching him closely.

Beast, you made many excellent points, as always. I'm assuming that, if he's around, it will be under a zero-tolerance type of policy.

The team struggled to adjust to the every-other-game situation with Ron back in the Spring of 2003. It seems to me that if he's causing problems he might be heading toward a five-game suspension so that his teammates and coaches can get used to living without him.

Arcadian
09-23-2004, 02:43 PM
If JO is a true MVP caliber player I should hope good coaching and JO get you more than .500 ball.

I don't buy the this player get you x amount of games forumula either. If that were the case the US would have won in Athens, the Jazz and the Bucks would have been fighting of the first pick last season and Detriot wouldn't have won the title.

I'll take chemistry and team play over individuals every day.

That said I want Ron to work out here.

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 02:48 PM
Peck you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron has on a game.

I don't think so. I think you and others are under-estimating the effect Ron's loonie-ness has on the people around him.


OK, this is a point I have been trying to addess all summer long.

Pacers won 61 games for a reason, that does not happen by accident.

From reading this forum all summer long I would have to believe there are only two valid reasons why the pacers won 61 games.

1) Great coaching
2) J.O.

That is it, now is that enough to win 61 games? Because it seems many of you think that Reggie is too old, Jeff can't score, Artest is doing almost as much harm as he is god, Al was selfish, Tinsley is average defensively and can't shoot.

I guess they won 61 games with smoke and mirrors. or maybe, just maybe, Artest was a huge factor in the pacers success. Becaue great coahcing and J.O will get you to maybe .500


As we've discussed before, I don't quite understand your formula, but I'll play along...

JO by himself will get you to 41 wins. Even Isiah couldn't make things any worse than 0.500 when all he had to work with was Jalen and JO.

Add another ten for the coaching. Reggie provided two or three wins, Al won a game or two. I'd give Ron credit for about 8 games.

But my real point is the long-term effects on people for coddling Ron's ego. In the short-run, things could be okay. They almost made it through last season without any problems. But you've got to wonder if JO's and JT's enthusiasm for the upcoming season has taken a dent due to the stupid things Ron has said and done this summer. I think most of us would come to work with a chip on our shoulder if our co-workers said something about us like Ron has done. These guys are humans, too. Eventually, they'll get tired of spending all thier effort trying to pacify Ron instead of spending their effort trying to win a championship.

indygeezer
09-23-2004, 03:06 PM
I think Ron played a HUGE part in winning 61 games. BUT i also think that Ron CANNOT handle the pressure of the playoffs. He wants to win so badly that he "freaks" under the pressure. The tricks he's learned to help him control his impulses no longer work under the stress of playoff competition. Would the meds help? Possibly, they might help smooth out those highs and lows. But until he agrees to take them on a regular basis, we'll see the same things happening with him.

TheSauceMaster
09-23-2004, 03:56 PM
Am I reading this wrong :confused: according to some without Ron , we should and would have won more than 61 games this last year :confused::confused::confused:

I can remember atleast 1-2 games in the Heat series ..Ron was the reason we won , now take Ron out and can you honestly say we get past Round 2 this last year :confused:

I don't think so and I don't always agree with UB 100% all the time , but I would say there were atleast 10 - if not 15 games last yr Ron was a major factor in us winning the game.

After I seen us in the Heat series , I said to myself there is no way we can beat Detriot in a 7 game series . I think alot of people put too much into the season series , yes we beat Detriot 3-1 in the season , but those 3 wins were before Sheed came aboard.

Wallace made Detriot a much more dangerous team , discount his presence all you like , shake your heads ...but he was and still is a big piece that the Pistons added.

It's funny that no one want's to talk about JO's moments of imaturity , yes they aren't as bad as Ron's , but he has still had them. I am not going to fret ethier way , if Ron Stays ...Awesome , if Ron goes ..Oh Well.

Like I have said the whole time , I don't know the whole story , maybe it's worse and then maybe it's being blown outta context. I don't get paid the dollars to make the decision's who stays or go's , nor do I have to deal with any of the problem's Ron may or may not create.

Being a Pacers fan is like riding a new rollercoaster , there are more twist and turns than a novel , and you always get off disappointed at the end of the ride.

Bball
09-23-2004, 04:07 PM
I don't have time right now to catch up on the posts between this last page and the ones I last read.... BUT... do we -know- Artest has meds?

I've heard it joked about... and I'm starting to think I remember reading something about him not liking meds.

BUT... Is it a known fact Artest has be prescribed meds for some type of mental condition?

(If this was addressed earlier in the thread I apologize but I just don't have time to go back over the pages right now).

-Bball

Vicious Tyrant
09-23-2004, 04:20 PM
It seems to me that you could possibly make a little chart which would list Ron's positive qualities and negative qualities and give you a figure to measure his worth. Let's say on a scale of 1-10 you give Ron a 9 for the positives he brings. You also might give him a 7 for the negatives he brings, giving him an overall score of 2.

I don't know if that is an accurate figure or not - but maybe it indicates you could trade Ron for another player who doesn't bring such a high positive number, but provides a higher overall number.

I think thinking like this gives Ron due credit for the exceptional things he does positively, but also takes into account the negative.

I just have this thought in my mind that James Posey would be a nice match. A lower number on the positive side, to be sure, but a lower number on the negative side also.

Also, I vote that the win total in the regular season is far less significant than playoff performance - where Ron again brought some high positive numbers, but some high negative ones as well.

Arcadian
09-23-2004, 04:22 PM
I do remember him saying that he has been prescribed medication and did not take it.

In this day and age I would shocked that meds haven't been, at the very least, floated as an idea for Ron by a doctor. Doctors will proscibe them fairly readily. I would say that its an iffy prospect in most cases if prozac or other meds were really needed and really worked. In some cases they are helpful in some cases they weren't needed or effective.

It should be "a moot question" of whether or not he is on them or even whether or not he refuses to take them. We don't know his medical history well enough to draw any conclusions.

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 04:54 PM
I know of at least two sources, but they are admittedly not the most reputable sources around...

I believe Ron was quoted as saying the Bulls wanted to medicate him in the ESPN.TheMagazine article from two seasons ago.

As for a slightly more reputable source than Ron himself in TheMagazine... Sam Smith in the Tribune has mentioned it several times. Perhaps KC Johnson also mentioned it, I know it was KC Johnson and perhaps Lacy Banks of the SunTimes that called him out on skipping practices because of migraines/ his fingers hurt/ etc. when Ron would get mad at Tim Floyd because Floyd would have the *audacity* to try to coach him.

The Bulls season-ticket-holders that I know have talked about Ron's need for medication as if "everyone knew it" since I moved here four years ago.

The reality of the situation is this: DW and Bird probably would've already found a deal they liked, but every other GM around the league has known this since Ron's days with the Bulls. We were willing to absorb this problem to get rid of Jalen's max contract.

With full information, nobody else seems willing to trade for him. If we were serious about trading him, we'd probably have to consider this silly AC + Ron for Vince idea because we'd certainly have to take back somebody else's problem/ problem contract just to get rid of him.

Its funny, the RA supporters have resigned themselves to the fact that he's going to be traded, while I've resigned myself to the fact that he's going to be here for a long, long time. At least he's not BYC anymore.

:omg:

SoupIsGood
09-23-2004, 07:04 PM
I think this system of X player is worth Y wins is absolutely crazy.

Hicks
09-23-2004, 07:53 PM
I think this system of X player is worth Y wins is absolutely crazy.

Same here.

Unclebuck
09-23-2004, 08:53 PM
If Ron had such a negative effect on the team then how in the hell did they win 61 games and get to game 6 of the ECF.

Since most of you think my theory of players being worth a certain number of wins is crazy, let me say this, in the NBA 1 player can make all the difference. Look at what Sheed did for the Pistons.

I guess I always try to understand the reasons why a team wins or loses. And I believe a team is only as good as their best two players or maybe three players.

Sorry I 'm rambling. But if some of you don't see that Ron Artest is the very heart and soul of this Pacers team then I don't know what you are watching. Artest is the engine for this 61 win team.

SoupIsGood
09-23-2004, 09:27 PM
Since most of you think my theory of players being worth a certain number of wins is crazy, let me say this, in the NBA 1 player can make all the difference. Look at what Sheed did for the Pistons.




Would you have said Portland Sheed was worth the same amount of wins as the Detroit Sheed?

I wouldn't think you would, and I think that indicates a major flaw in your reasoning. It's about the team as a whole, not individuals. People always say how Sheed was perfect for the pistons, fit in with the guys, he bettered the team as a whole. I can't say that for Artest.

Unclebuck
09-23-2004, 09:39 PM
Since most of you think my theory of players being worth a certain number of wins is crazy, let me say this, in the NBA 1 player can make all the difference. Look at what Sheed did for the Pistons.




Would you have said Portland Sheed was worth the same amount of wins as the Detroit Sheed?

I wouldn't think you would, and I think that indicates a major flaw in your reasoning. It's about the team as a whole, not individuals. People always say how Sheed was perfect for the pistons, fit in with the guys, he bettered the team as a whole. I can't say that for Artest.




Absolutely it is about the team as a whole. But if you take Artest away the heart and soul of the "team" is taken away.

let me get this straight, and please correct me if I am wrong. Yes Sheed was exactly what the Pistons needed. But are you suggesting that Artest is not what the pacers team needs.

let me say this, there is nothing I hate more then a soft basketball team, I dispise soft teams. if Ron is traded let's say for Peja the Pacers become very soft. The weaknesses of J.O and Jeff will be exposed. Now I really like the combo of J.O and Jeff, I love mobile big guys, but with those two guys you need a physical force at small forward, otherwise the pacers become very soft. And then you add in the Al Harrington trade, and the pacers are very close to becoming a soft team right now even with Artest.

SoupIsGood
09-23-2004, 10:01 PM
I'll agree Artest is great for the Pacer on the court, I don't think anyone would really argue that, but there's so much more to a team than just that. Artest doesn't fit in, and I really doubt anyone on the team feels all that comfortable around him. Generally, it isn't comfortable to be around someone with a mental disease, and that can affect the team in so many ways.

I think you may be a little paranoid about the soft thing. These players made it to the best league in the world, they can't be all that soft. Also, what's the point in being a tough team if Ron is ticking everyone off?

SoupIsGood
09-23-2004, 10:06 PM
Also, I think this was the thread the "addition by subtraction" thing was brought up.

If not, I'm going to feel pretty dumb.

Well anyhow, I've always viewed the + by - theory as removing a player with a bad attitude, or just a bad fit for that certain team, in order to help the team by ridding itself of the bad influence, even if said player was an all-star.

I've seen so many respones of "Yeah, so you're saying if we dump Artest, we will win more than 61 games" that I think I may be alone in what I think the + by - is.

Jose Slaughter
09-23-2004, 10:09 PM
I've read most of this thread but I might have missed this.

Has anyone considered that the problems Artest had during the Detroit series started up just as O'Neal & Tinsley injuries were taking their toll on the team.

I'm not making excuses for all the things Artest did this past season but he did seem to play well in the Boston & Miami series.

Maybe he felt that with JO & Tins hobbled that he needed to step up.

He had never been that far into the post season before & maybe he thought that he had to carry the team.

With everything else going on with him could he have put too much pressure on himself to "be the man" & ended up falling on his face?

SoupIsGood
09-23-2004, 10:13 PM
I've read most of this thread but I might have missed this.

Has anyone considered that the problems Artest had during the Detroit series started up just as O'Neal & Tinsley injuries were taking their toll on the team.

I'm not making excuses for all the things Artest did this past season but he did seem to play well in the Boston & Miami series.

Maybe he felt that with JO & Tins hobbled that he needed to step up.

He had never been that far into the post season before & maybe he thought that he had to carry the team.

With everything else going on with him could he have put too much pressure on himself to "be the man" & ended up falling on his face?



Whatever the reason, Artest just had an off series. That doesn't concern me, although I do think it may have something to do with what you said. The odd behavior off the court is what concerns me. You don't win championships with that kind of crap going on deep in the playoffs.

Kegboy
09-23-2004, 10:23 PM
I've read most of this thread but I might have missed this.

Has anyone considered that the problems Artest had during the Detroit series started up just as O'Neal & Tinsley injuries were taking their toll on the team.

I'm not making excuses for all the things Artest did this past season but he did seem to play well in the Boston & Miami series.

Maybe he felt that with JO & Tins hobbled that he needed to step up.

He had never been that far into the post season before & maybe he thought that he had to carry the team.

With everything else going on with him could he have put too much pressure on himself to "be the man" & ended up falling on his face?



Certainly makes sense, with what we know of him.

Anthem
09-23-2004, 11:23 PM
I'll take chemistry and team play over individuals every day.

That said I want Ron to work out here.

Absolutely. Me too. I think chemistry always wins.

Which is why I think the chemistry can't be that bad if we won 61 games last year.

Anthem
09-23-2004, 11:28 PM
I think Ron played a HUGE part in winning 61 games. BUT i also think that Ron CANNOT handle the pressure of the playoffs. He wants to win so badly that he "freaks" under the pressure.

He wanted to win badly enough to will us through the Miami series when noone else would.

Ron's biggest problem with the Pistons was that there was nobody to guard. That's what centers his game... because he didn't have to guard Prince, he spent too much time thinking about offense.

If Rip had been a small forward instead of a speedy Reggie Miller mini-me, we would have beaten the Pistons. Handily.

Peck
09-24-2004, 01:44 AM
Some mighty ugly things are rearing their heads in this thread.

Let's address some of them. For those of you that keep acting like Ron started to melt down in the E.C. finals & that his great "desire to win" :rolleyes: was what caused him to lose it. Let me remind you, according to Mark Montieth, Ron Artest had to be convinced by the entire team & coaching staff to get on the team plane in Miami after the first loss in the playoffs.

Let me say that again. He had to be convinced to get on the team plane to come home by the entire team & coaching staff. This is exactly what I want the entire team focusing on after a loss, how about you?

What some of you just won't come to grips with, I guess, is what Kravits was trying to tell you. That the playoffs is just when it became more public. This was going on all season long in the locker room.

The incident in Minnesota, the west coast back spasms, the supposed destruction of our locker room after the New Jersey game. These were talked about all season long.

The only thing, to me anyway, that Ron seems to have controlled all season long was his on court flagrant fouls.

I guess we'll all just have to agree to disagree on this. I work in an environment that you have to depend on your partner & I've had all kinds. Just from my perspective I would much rather have a lower skilled person who was low maintenance for me to deal with other than some highly skilled jackass who I couldn't trust.

Now I've never played professional basketball but my guess is that you would want a player who could hold their own but not require you to spend all of your energy making sure they don't "melt down".

Ok, that is issue one. Now moving on.

Let's all just give Uncle Buck a pass here. He's already admitted that this is personnal for him, he's tried to remain proffesional about it but when push comes to shove he is saying that Ron is the heart & soul of the team. Look, I know what it's like to have a favorite player (Dale Davis) so I completely sympathize. So when he say's player X = 15 games & player Y = 10 games etc., etc. what he is saying is that he loves Ron Artests game. Well, guess what? Contrary to what I am saying on here I love Ron Artest game as well. I mean that, I hate like hell that the guy just can't play the game & leave it at that. But I am now almost 100% convinced that guy is a (Oh God here come the Jalen comparisons) Cancer to the team.

I'll go on record now & say this. I think, as it stands, Ron Artest is the best small forward in the N.B.A. (I caveat that by saying I consider T-Mac a S.G.).

But it doesn't matter a hill of beans if he is such a detriment behind the scenes that he is weighing on the team. Team chemistry is not only important it's almost the most important thing that is needed (well that & really good players).

So I say that to just say this, I understand U.B.'s point of view & really none of this is directed towards him when it comes to Ron.

However, in his postings he accidently let out the truth. Jeff Foster is a finesse player. We all know that J.O. is (to a point) but he is now admitting that Foster is in the middle. Now I know we will disagree over this cause God knows we :swordfight: all of the time when it comes to this, but I'll say it anyway.

I want my power player to be in the middle, not my small forward. Now don't get me wrong I would love a team of physicall players, but if I have to only have one I want that person to be either my Center or Power forward.

I quote U.B. here "if Ron is traded let's say for Peja the Pacers become very soft. The weaknesses of J.O and Jeff will be exposed." BTW, I couldn't agree more with this assesment. However I think that this is a problem no matter who the small forward is.

Ok, now this last one is an old longstanding problem of mine.

Could somebody please explain to me how bad behavior equals desire to win? I will never understand this, whether it's Allen Iverson, Jalen Rose or Ron Artest I do NOT understand the philosophy at all. Does Reggie Miller not care when we lose? Does Fred Jones rejoice in our losses? I just don't get it.

Ok, bash away at me people.

Anthem
09-24-2004, 02:10 AM
Peck, you're an extremely smart guy, and I'd agree with you a lot more if something about your posts didn't always make me howling mad. And I can't even point exactly to what it is. I usually agree with 80% of your posts, but the other 20% makes me disagree on principle. This is a case in point.

I, also, think the "wants to win" card gets overplayed. My statement above was meant to be ironic, and upon rereading I see it doesn't come across that way. This is all I'll give ya.

I really don't see the world the way you do. Call me young and idealistic, whatever. But in Ron Artest, I see a young man who's got some screwed up parts to him, but he keeps improving. He keeps getting better. At the end of last season, Ron realized that his on-court blowups were hurting the team, and so he stopped doing them. The man just quit cold turkey. He had the bs flagrant against Paul Pierce on an opening tip, and then nothing else since then (I regard the Sacto as a fluke, and the Rip incident as good acting by Rip, worthy almost of Reggie Miller). If I could stop destructive habits that quickly, I'd be the Dalai Lama.

At some point, he's going to realize that his off-court problems are hurting the team just like his on-court problems did last year. It's taken longer, but on a 61-win team it's kind of hard to show the harm. He's smart, he's charismatic. He'll figure it out. The guy has consistently shown an overwhelming desire to improve, and he's succeeded. Every season, he's been substantially better than the last.

As I've been putting this post together, I've realized what drives me crazy about your posts, Peck. You consistently write people off. You wrote off Jermaine O'Neal in a very similar fashion several years ago, although I respect the fact that a lot of that came from your love for DD, which is similar in duration and intensity to UB's love for Ron. You've written off Jeff Foster. You'll have to remind me on Tinsley, I don't recall your position one way or another.

Ron's done nothing to warrant being written off. If you don't see continous improvement, then I don't know what to say. Give the kid a freaking chance.

EDIT: Embarrassing typo.

Peck
09-24-2004, 03:31 AM
Love me or hate me, you have to admit at least I get the conversation flowing.:jester:

I'm not sure what we disagree with here. We both think Ron is a great player. We both think Ron can improve both on & off the court I guess where we will part is in one small fact. I'm comfortable with the fact that the team as an org. or even his team mates might be beyond the fact that Ron will improve. They may not care anymore, sometimes you just get that way with people.

As I said early on, I don't have a clue as to what will happen.

In defense of myself I think you will see that most of what I post is usually counter-point to something somebody else wrote. ie. We wouldn't win 61 games or even the ones that said that we would be lucky to have made the playoffs. When I see things like this or other things I just find outlandish I usually make comment.

As to writing people off. Perfectly good observation on your part. I will watch myself to see if this is a problem. But let me address these one by one.

Jermaine O'Neal you hit on the head & I won't even try to pretend otherwise. He was traded for one of my favorite Pacers of all time & certainly was trade for my fav. Pacer of that team. However I tried my best to give him a fair shake, anybody who was reading back then will understand where I lost it with J.O. was in what I liked to call phony toughness. His incident with Ben Wallace was both funny & infuriating all at the same time. But I will say this, as of last season I thought J.O. turned the corner & I am one of the few people who will actually give Isiah Thomas credit for this. He told him in the off-season to not worry about jump shots or rebounds or blocked shots, etc. He wanted him to work on being a better person & J.O. took it to heart & IMO has turned into a truely M.V.P. caliber player. Unless the name is Shaq, Duncan or Garnett I would not trade J.O. & to be honest I'm not sure I would trade him for Garnett.

So in other words I've done a 180 on Jermaine & I will gladly stand here now & eat crow. I was wrong about him when I said he was an immature punk who would not ever improve. I was wrong & I will say it again for anybody who wants me to.

Now before we go & say that I will be the same with Ron let me just stop you. I'll get to this later but for now I just will say that it is totally differant.

As to Jamaal. I always like him, so your going to have to look elswhere if you are looking for somebody that I wrote off. Actually I have always been a big fan of his.

Foster, now were getting somewhere. With Jeff it is usually more of the same with him for me. In other words I usually feel like I am combating hyperbole with him. Whenever I used to hear people talk about him being this great rebounder because min. for min. he was one of the league leaders. I kept saying over & over that that stat was just pure bunk. Contrary to popular belief, I like Foster. But I like him as a backup. I do not consider him a starting caliber center that will be able to win a title. It's not just his lack of offense either. I think he is a good (but not great) rebounder & while I think he is good at guarding small finesse centers I find him abysmal at guarding power players. But then it comes down to something else. Many times I just have to counter U.B.:bananadance: Also I will admit that he is not the type of center I prefer.

So in closing :tongue::flirt:

Bball
09-24-2004, 07:04 AM
I think some of us were already privy to the stuff Kravitz pointed out, and a few other things as well, and that is skewing this debate.

It didn't start in the playoffs. Obviously there was some improvement as far as the flagrant fouls over the course of the season. But there was an undercurrent all season long of not being on the same page as the rest of the team.

I think some are discounting what Kravitz said because it is Kravitz. Others are discounting it because they are only thinking on Game 6 in the ECF's and not realizing there is a bigger picture being painted.

And obviously some like Artest's intensity and simply don't want to believe that Kravitz is just touching the tip of the iceberg.

-Bball

ABADays
09-24-2004, 08:22 AM
I've read most of this thread but I might have missed this.

Has anyone considered that the problems Artest had during the Detroit series started up just as O'Neal & Tinsley injuries were taking their toll on the team.

I'm not making excuses for all the things Artest did this past season but he did seem to play well in the Boston & Miami series.

Maybe he felt that with JO & Tins hobbled that he needed to step up.

He had never been that far into the post season before & maybe he thought that he had to carry the team.

With everything else going on with him could he have put too much pressure on himself to "be the man" & ended up falling on his face?



Whatever the reason, Artest just had an off series. That doesn't concern me, although I do think it may have something to do with what you said. The odd behavior off the court is what concerns me. You don't win championships with that kind of crap going on deep in the playoffs.



Ummmmm . . . Los Angeles Lakers.

beast23
09-24-2004, 08:22 AM
Bird did the appropriate thing coming out with comments in support of Artest.

But, take notice of one thing. Bird did NOT dispute anything that Kravitz had to say. He just stated how valuable Ron is to the team ant that he continues to improve, both on and off the court.

I would say that Bird and Walsh probably won't have anything to say to Kravitz in the future.

Unclebuck
09-24-2004, 10:13 AM
I want to make myself clear. I in no way doubt anything that Kravitz wrote, it is probably that bad and perhaps worse.

However I do question whether it has had a detrimental effect on the team, I question that big time. (sure at time it has, but overall I don't think it has had a huge effect) And I certainly believe Artest is a net plus.

Overall I think Artest is too valuable to trade, he is simply too good a player to give up on.

indygeezer
09-24-2004, 11:09 AM
Bird, while refusing to rule out the possibility of anyone being traded, said Thursday he is not actively seeking a deal involving (Jale...uh) Artest.


Words sound familiar? From the Star story this AM.
Kiss-o-death? Or is larry just learning really really well from DW?


Look, I supported RA during his really bad year.

I like the kid and want him to succeed as a Pacer. But I don't think it's going to happen here.

MagicRat
09-25-2004, 10:50 PM
I don't know how the Artest thing will play out, but you Artest fans had better pay a visit to 96th and Masters Road to see the Artest "One Goal" billboard while you have the chance.......


grab a camera, post each of the billboards on the forum...




http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/joonegoal.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/regonegoal.jpg

Lord Helmet
09-25-2004, 11:09 PM
Just seeing that sign is getting me hyped up!!This is our year!!!!!!!!!! ;)

MSA2CF
09-25-2004, 11:20 PM
I saw the Jermaine sign today in real life! Wow, MagicRat; we could've been like hundreds of feet away! :o

;)

Young
09-25-2004, 11:36 PM
Overall I think Artest is too valuable to trade, he is simply too good a player to give up on.

But how long will we have to wait for him to improve incidents like the ones Peck mentioned? It is about being mature and he is what? 23? I mean how freaking long does Artest need to get his *** grown up already?

I'm not trying to call you out UB, I got nothing but respect for you, it is just that alot of posters have said he has improved and will keep on doing so and etc etc but we can not play some waiting game forever. Know what I mean?

I understand that he is a top player, the best defender in the league. A valueable weapon on offense. I love his game.

He just needs to get the mental game down. I hope he does too because as of right now, he is a Pacer. So what could happen tomorrow, doesn't matter that much because he is still a Pacer and he better have his game down mentaly. Because I am sick of his crap. The flagurant fouls was just awful to watch a couple of seasons ago and now all of these stories surfacing about his issues off the court. For gosh sakes there comes a time when you just have to grow up.

Do I think he will grow up? I don't know. But I sure hope he does because it is a shame to see someone as good and talented as he is be a pain in the ***.

sweabs
09-26-2004, 01:17 AM
but we can not play some waiting game forever. Know what I mean?

*Cough* Bender *Cough*

RWB
09-26-2004, 10:17 AM
There is nothing I can say to defend anything that Artest does but I can guarantee it hasn't gotten to the point where the Ps will just cut him loose.

Those who have met me at the forum parties know what my job is. Believe me the Pacer organization knows EVERYTHING there is to know about Ron Artest. I meet with an individual every year who works for the NFL before the start of a certain football training camp. He outlines every person they are interested in watching for possible problems and wants to be called 24/7 on any incident. The same individual use to do the same job for the NBA and was assigned to a certain Blue and Gold team. Big Brother (actually ex-FBI) watch these guys so Ronnie hasn't stepped over the line or the league office would have already booted his butt.

MagicRat
09-26-2004, 10:33 AM
The final photo of the series (and the only one not taken at 70 mph)....

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/rononegoal.jpg

MSA2CF
09-26-2004, 11:17 AM
Wow, Ron looks sharp and brightly colored. :o

MSA2CF
09-26-2004, 11:17 AM
Vibrant, indeed.

Lord Helmet
09-26-2004, 11:20 AM
Thats a great picture Rat.

ChicagoJ
11-16-2004, 12:55 AM
:bump:ing. Man, it takes a while to track down old threads around here. (Especially since I thought this discussion was from July. D'oh!)

Anthem
11-16-2004, 01:32 AM
If they trade him for 'a bag of muffins' you can go ahead and write this season off. W/O Artest this team will struggle to make the playoffs. Artest is as valuable, and arguably more valuable, than JO is to the success of this team. If the Pacers are starting to 'Spin' this story they have a lot more 'spinning' to do to satisfy me. The fact that Artest lost his cool the last week of the season is no reason to waste an entire season by giving him away.

Have you been asleep????? ;)




Have you? This ain't exactly a recent thread... :flirt:

stipo
11-16-2004, 11:10 AM
1.Chicago Bulls with Rodman acting a fool constantly

2.L.A. Lakers with Shaq and Kobe hating each other

San Antonio Spurs with Tim Duncan totally out of contro..oops, scratch that one.:laugh:

Anyway, I'm sure that many other franchises in baseball and football can ALSO be mentioned as examples where the team doesn't get together after each and every game and have a big group hug. :hug::kiss::hug::shakehands: Where players and coaches don't sit around and have heart to heart talks constantly and they STILL win championships.

I'm willing to say that probably a good portion of championship teams had some members who didn't like each other at all. Let's face it, there have been a heckuva lot of great players who also happened to be a** h***es over the years:

Ty Cobb:mad:

Babe Ruth (on many occasions, including once URINATING on another player on his own team after the game):disturbed:

etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.,...

I think if a person was to do a little research, they would find that there have been whole brawls in a dressing room, and then the team goes out and WINS.

This idea of a team needing to love each other, or even LIKE each other in order to win is :bs:.

The main criticism that I keep reading about Ron ON the court is the shot he gave Rip, and even that was GREAT acting on Rips part. I hear complaints about shot selection too, but I think you can say that about half of any team on any night if you're super-critical, and that is what boards like this are built on sometimes;).


Also-
Someone said previously that he would rather have a easy going, less productive co-worker, than a High
Maintanance one who is great at what he does. (I'm paraphrasing here, but I'm sure to get the direct quote later:laugh:) But the question about this is what does that do to overall productivity for the COMPANY? I'm sure the first employee happy:cool:, but that leaves him to work extra hard to make up for the loss, and that doesn't work in the long run:sad:.
:twocents:

ChicagoJ
11-16-2004, 05:43 PM
There is nothing new to me in that article. I thought most of that was common knowledge.

I would like to know what Artest's explanation is. Not his public explanation, but what he tells his employer.

One other thing that concerns me is I now last summer, Artest was at Conseco everyday working out. I don't think he has been around this summer (I don't know that for sure, but in all the summer articles I have not read opne word about Artest working out in town) I am not suggesting he is getting fat and lazy, rather that perhaps he has not been in contact with DW, Bird, carlisle.

I'll say it again, Artest is simply too good to trade unles you get a great player in return

This thread is humerous to re-read two months later...

We now know that he did, in fact, come into camp out of shape, and nobody seriously suspected that.

But since the album was originally due in September, and he didn't get that done on time, what exactly did he do all summer?

GO!!!!!
11-16-2004, 06:19 PM
I think this calls for a Ron Vs Jalen thread

Pro's and Con's of each player and why we traded one for the other...

on that note, I hear Kobe will be up for trade soon, Ron, and Jax for Kobe works for me

Hoop
11-16-2004, 07:41 PM
Just make it stop! :scream:

:notlistening: :argue: :deadhorse:

ImCrazyB
11-16-2004, 07:49 PM
Guys, Whats the big deal?

This is about the 50th article Kravitz has written against Artest. He makes up for his not being able to play sports as a child by smashin on good plaers in his articles.

Hes a moron and has never been right about anything.