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vnzla81
02-27-2011, 02:46 PM
Ok, this is going to be the 1st time I question Vogel, 3 seconds left and you call a play with Josh and Foster in? why? I like the fact that he stay with AJ Price when he got hot but why no replace Josh with Hans if you are struggling to score? hard loss to swallow,good D by Rush better shot by Frye.

Go Pacers :mad:

huber14
02-27-2011, 02:48 PM
exactly

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 02:53 PM
Well I have had about enough. No reason for both Foster and Josh to be in there in the fourth/overtime. Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough should have closed. We could have used, you know, an OJ Mayo too. No reason to have Rush, Josh, or Jeff in who crap their pants every time they touch the ball in late games. Paul was creating shots for others and was helping the flow of the game. Terribly coached fourth/overtime.

Getting sick of our bigs setting weak picks and not boxing out. That's pitiful and embarassing. They need to man up.

Danny, get off the team if you're going to let King Ramses III drop 34 points on you. You're defense is pathetic and you show no pride. I want to see you traded if we get OJ Mayo, you're defense is that bad and it rubs off on the other guys. Oh yeah, and make a wide open shot every once in a while too.

I wanted to see more Lance. He did 2x better than Darren Collison did and that says more about how bad DC was.

It's time to mix up the starting lineup. Rush and Josh shouldn't be on the court at the same time; Especially with Danny routinely having crappy first quarters. Start either Tyler or George, I don't care.

Three things that I am optimistic about going forward:

1.) Paul George, Roy Hibbert, and Lance Stephenson
2.) Hopefully getting OJ Mayo
3.) Getting a good power forward.
4.) Trading a package of DC/a future first/one of our bigs/Granger for a point guard. :pray:

I know this is overreacting and knee jerk so don't quote me and just ignore me if you don't agree. I'll feel different after I get done taking a nap or play basketball w/ my bros.

InYaFace
02-27-2011, 02:54 PM
Some forget what they said a few month ago...
You wanted the young guys, you got the young guys...heck we were witnesses of AJ Price killing the Suns in the fourth...we saw this young team hanging on till the last second of OT!

Young teams lose those games, but it sure gives you a lot of experience to be in such a close one when you are a rookie or sophmore.

I think this was a great game and it was nice to watch this! Sure a W would have been better, but we really got it going in the fourth!

I love Price, George, Hansbrough...I love a lot of the Pacers^^ I actually don't like Rush from time to time...he lost his shot today.

Mr_Smith
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Channing Frye just keeps getting us. Lets hope Charlotte loses to Orlando which they should....key word: should

MrHale
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
hibbert was a *****

LoneGranger33
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Did you leave out the D in the thread title to reflect the Pacers' first three quarters of play?

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
I never just or only "Wanted the young guys". I wanted the Playoffs too. And it's reachable if a certain number of them play like they care.

Eddie Gill
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
I need time to process this one. Stings more than most. Here's to a good road trip.

Merz
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
One thing that is clearly evident: The Pacers need to stop getting the ball in DJ's hands every possession when he is in, while Paul George is just stationed in the corner. That needs to switch. Paul can make things happen, DJ takes things away with his black hole-edness.

smj887
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
It was very limited action, but I liked what we saw from Lance and want to see more. Unfortunately for his minutes, though, we seem to have a logjam at the point for the first time since the mid-1800's.

AesopRockOn
02-27-2011, 02:57 PM
I tuned in at the end of the 3rd so I don't know the whole story. We came back valiantly on AJ's back. However, the 24-second violations in the clutch KILLED us. Plus, Channing "Kicked in the Nuts" Frye made a big two. It was lame, but I didn't expect to win anyway.

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 02:58 PM
Well I have had about enough. No reason for both Foster and Josh to be in there in the fourth/overtime. Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough should have closed. We could have used, you know, an OJ Mayo too. No reason to have Rush, Josh, or Jeff in who crap their pants every time they touch the ball in late games. Paul was creating shots for others and was helping the flow of the game. Terribly coached fourth/overtime.

Getting sick of our bigs setting weak picks and not boxing out. That's pitiful and embarassing. They need to man up.

Danny, get off the team if you're going to let King Ramses III drop 34 points on you. You're defense is pathetic and you show no pride. I want to see you traded if we get OJ Mayo, you're defense is that bad and it rubs off on the other guys. Oh yeah, and make a wide open shot every once in a while too.

I wanted to see more Lance. He did 2x better than Darren Collison did and that says more about how bad DC was.

It's time to mix up the starting lineup. Rush and Josh shouldn't be on the court at the same time; Especially with Danny routinely having crappy first quarters. Start either Tyler or George, I don't care.

Three things that I am optimistic about going forward:

1.) Paul George, Roy Hibbert, and Lance Stephenson
2.) Hopefully getting OJ Mayo
3.) Getting a good power forward.
4.) Trading a package of DC/a future first/one of our bigs/Granger for a point guard. :pray:

I know this is overreacting and knee jerk so don't quote me and just ignore me if you don't agree. I'll feel different after I get done taking a nap or play basketball w/ my bros.

Darren didn't have a bad game the reason he wasn't in at the end of the 4th/OT was because Price was hitting everything he took. Wanting to trade DC right now is just dumb.

DemonHunter1105
02-27-2011, 02:59 PM
I liked what AJ, Brandon, and Danny(offensively at least) did today. It kind of scares me that I was happy AJ kept playing and DC didn't come back, but oh well.

I just wanted more Paul and Hibbert. That's my main complaint.

Jared Sullinger
02-27-2011, 02:59 PM
Four losses in five games. The honeymoon is not only over, thoughts of a divorce are already running through my mind (i.e., finding a new coach in the offseason).

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 03:00 PM
By the way, I think is safe to say that Danny would never be a good defender he is who he is.

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 03:01 PM
Four losses in five games. The honeymoon is not only over, thoughts of a divorce are already running through my mind (i.e., finding a new coach in the offseason).

Where did this 4 losses in 5 games myth come from? we're 2-2 in our last 4.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 03:01 PM
Darren didn't have a bad game the reason he wasn't in at the end of the 4th/OT was because Price was hitting everything he took. Wanting to trade DC right now is just dumb.

I know, but if the opportunity arises and we have a chance to get a top flight PG we got to do it.

We are still routinely getting outplayed at the point guard spot. Yes, DC is a huge upgrade over Earl Watson and TJ Ford, but he's still playing worse than his opponents.

pathil275
02-27-2011, 03:01 PM
Why didn't they foul Nash with <3,5 sec on the clock? They had one to give, right?

croz24
02-27-2011, 03:02 PM
Some forget what they said a few month ago...
You wanted the young guys, you got the young guys...heck we were witnesses of AJ Price killing the Suns in the fourth...we saw this young team hanging on till the last second of OT!

when i say i want the young guys, i mean i don't want dahntay jones acting like he's kobe out there. i don't want foster touching the ball twice with less than a minute left in the game, let alone taking jumpers. i want george to have plays actually ran for him. i want collison and hibbert to learn how to fight through bad games.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 03:02 PM
Where did this 4 losses in 5 games myth come from? we're 2-2 in our last 4.

THANK YOU!! :highfive:

PaceBalls
02-27-2011, 03:02 PM
You could see just how explosive Lance is with a few jukes he made, but he also gave up his dribble and made a bad pass that Dudley stole and got a dunk on. That's all I noticed from him.

Hibbert had alot blocks but he is just so terrible at rebounding, I feel he is a detriment out there. Add Josh to the mix and it's just total fail on the glass. Hibbert might do better with Tyler or Foster next to him. Something needs to change. I think having Dun out has changed the dynamic for the starters and there is less reason for Josh to be out there with Hibbert than before.

AJ is our best PG, he plays with the most energy, he makes better decisions, I don't care if DC gets pouty, step up your game or take a seat.

Trophy
02-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Darren didn't have a bad game the reason he wasn't in at the end of the 4th/OT was because Price was hitting everything he took. Wanting to trade DC right now is just dumb.

DC played pretty well today and like himself, but AJ was just a scoring machine and he really pulled us back into the game giving him the OT minutes.

DC is one of the last guys that will be going anywhere. He's our PG and will be our PG.

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 03:03 PM
I know, but if the opportunity arises and we have a chance to get a top flight PG we got to do it.

We are still routinely getting outplayed at the point guard spot. Yes, DC is a huge upgrade over Earl Watson and TJ Ford, but he's still playing worse than his opponents.

Well yeah if we can get a top PG then we're going to do it thats a given but there aren't top 10 pg's on the trading block.

Psyren
02-27-2011, 03:05 PM
Geez.

Thoughts of a divorce already? You've got to be kidding. I'm not saying Frank is the answer, but let's take a step back.

Most of us here at PD (I'm sure not all) asked for the young players before "he who shall not be named" got fired. Tonight, we got the young players. They will make mistakes. We will lose games.

I want the playoffs as much as the next guy, but let's take a step back. We need these guys to develop. It seems to me that they are. I'd like to develop them and make the playoffs, but this was just a tough game to swallow. Remember, somebody has to lose. It's never easy to lose an OT game, but it's really ok.

On to the next one.

AesopRockOn
02-27-2011, 03:05 PM
By the way, I think is safe to say that Danny would never be a good defender he is who he is.

He is a good defender, just not a top flight two-way player where he can dominate on both ends in any given game. I'm not excusing his bad recoveries or whatever cause Hill to get seven threes, but crapping on Danny after this loss doesn't seem like the way to go. Especially against Nash, solid point guard and PnR defense is the key.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 03:05 PM
Well yeah if we can get a top PG then we're going to do it thats a given but there aren't top 10 pg's on the trading block.

Yep. We just got to get to the point though that we're not getting routinely outplayed at that spot though.

imawhat
02-27-2011, 03:06 PM
Lance had more assists in four minutes than AJ has had in his past two games combined. I'm ready to see some more Lance (and a lot more AJ too).

Hoop
02-27-2011, 03:06 PM
We've lost the last 2 games to teams with better records than us, disappointing cause we could have won today, but not the end of the world. We looked much worse against Utah & Suns the last time we played them.

Hill hitting Danny with 34 was disapointing, but Danny had 25Pts 4Rebs 6Ast on 8-17 with 3 steals, 1 blk and only 1TO. Not the disaster some of you are saying he was.

AB1077
02-27-2011, 03:06 PM
Why didn't they foul Nash with <3,5 sec on the clock? They had one to give, right?

Yes, I want to hear the explanation for that as well.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 03:07 PM
For you guys calling for Hans and Hibbert, Vogel made the right decision today.

He stayed with the defense. That was the best PnR defense we've played in the last two years (probably a lot longer than that.) And it was against Steve Nash. That's been a problem, but if we can stop Steve Nash, we can stop any PG from doing that.

The offense did suffer, but I think Vogel just figured that Danny and AJ were enough offense.

The PGs, Price is my boy obviously, but I'm going to find myself sticking up for DC (again.) We're lucky to have two young good PGs. DC hasn't been playing well, and his defense needs to improve. But he's still good, and he's still very young.

AJ didn't play a perfect PG game today either. Too many turnovers (although, two of which were just fouls that weren't called) He was out of control a bit, which was unusual for him. He also didn't run the offense particularly well, in stretches. But he also took over the fourth quarter. And his defense has improved remarkably. At this point, he's one of our better defenders. It's too bad we came up short.

I maintain that we continue to stat DC, and if Price is outplaying him, Price closes.

Lance, he looked uncomfortable to me. Probably first game jitters. But he looked like a SG being told to play point. He had a pretty pass to PG on the baseline, but his handle isn't that good. He could bulldoze his way into the paint with little Aaron Brooks on him, however, I think he could have bulldozed whomever the shooting guard was too. I'd like to see him played there for a few minutes..particularly if DJones is going to continue to take too many shots and not play defense.

edit: we didn't foul because if we did, they go to the line. The commentators were wrong.

Jared Sullinger
02-27-2011, 03:08 PM
Where did this 4 losses in 5 games myth come from? we're 2-2 in our last 4.

Right. The Wizards are so irrelevant that our game against them completely slipped my mind.

Four loses in six games, struggling against bad and getting beat by mediocre teams. We're not so hot.

Eleazar
02-27-2011, 03:09 PM
Four losses in five games. The honeymoon is not only over, thoughts of a divorce are already running through my mind (i.e., finding a new coach in the offseason).

Seriously? Do you really think any other coach would be doing better right now? Unless you are expecting John Wooden to be our next coach it is highly unlikely any other coach would be doing better.

flox
02-27-2011, 03:16 PM
Seriously? Do you really think any other coach would be doing better right now? Unless you are expecting John Wooden to be our next coach it is highly unlikely any other coach would be doing better.

Yes. I can think of a few.

AB1077
02-27-2011, 03:16 PM
It is disappointing, for sure. But I'd like to think that this experience will help our younger guys learn how to close out games in the future.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 03:16 PM
For you guys calling for Hans and Hibbert, Vogel made the right decision today.

I agree with the Hibbert part but I disagree with the Hans part, the Pacers needed offense and had two players with no offense, another thing I don't understand is why Josh and Foster were in the game for that last second call.

Scot Pollard
02-27-2011, 03:17 PM
you people make me laugh

stop whining

no way in hell this was frank vogel

you just love to blame everyone and you people are never happy

it was a fun late game but a lot of the players didnt do well

i know you all refuse to blame roy hibbert but he had a ****ty game and for those who want a better pg maybe we should get a better center

i love darren collison and roy and they are young aqnd our future players

have a drink

BlueNGold
02-27-2011, 03:17 PM
Geez.

Thoughts of a divorce already? You've got to be kidding. I'm not saying Frank is the answer, but let's take a step back.

Most of us here at PD (I'm sure not all) asked for the young players before "he who shall not be named" got fired. Tonight, we got the young players. They will make mistakes. We will lose games.

I want the playoffs as much as the next guy, but let's take a step back. We need these guys to develop. It seems to me that they are. I'd like to develop them and make the playoffs, but this was just a tough game to swallow. Remember, somebody has to lose. It's never easy to lose an OT game, but it's really ok.

On to the next one.

Absolutely. The Pacers lost the last contest with Phoenix by 8 points. At least this game went to overtime. Also, Hans and George got DNP's last time yet we competed better.

Goodness, this team is filled with rookies and second year players. AJ, Tyler, Hibbert, George, Rush, McBob, Lance, etc...all very inexperienced NBA players. Patience...

Rogco
02-27-2011, 03:18 PM
We've lost the last 2 games to teams with better records than us, disappointing cause we could have won today, but not the end of the world. We looked much worse against Utah & Suns the last time we played them.

Hill hitting Danny with 34 was disapointing, but Danny had 25Pts 4Rebs 6Ast on 8-17 with 3 steals, 1 blk and only 1TO. Not the disaster some of you are saying he was.

What I found really disappointing was that at the end of fourth, Danny got sucked into the middle for no reason, leaving Hill open for a three to tie it. Bad defense, and it left the hottest player on Phoenix open at the end of the game. Still, an overtime loss to an over .500 team isn't the end of the world. I think people are expecting to much from this team. We're playing better and we've been competitive in every game under Vogel, and that's still a massive improvement from where we were.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 03:19 PM
.

I agree with the Hibbert part but I disagree with the Hans part, the Pacers needed offense and had two players with no offense, another thing I don't understand is why Josh and Foster were in the game for that last second call.

They shouldn't have been in the game then.

But Josh was in because of the PnR defense with the Sun's PF (Frye?)

Steve Nash will absolutely kill you with the PnR, you have to do your best to stop it.

Hoop
02-27-2011, 03:21 PM
Right. The Wizards are so irrelevant that our game against them completely slipped my mind.

Four loses in six games, struggling against bad and getting beat by mediocre teams. We're not so hot.
Have you happened to look at our record, we are not that great, improving but still not that great. Potential, yes, still not that good.

The only loss to a team with a worse record than us was against Detroit, in overtime.

Perspective maybe?

A month ago it looked like we might not win another game the rest of the season, things are still much much better.

Rogco
02-27-2011, 03:21 PM
.

I agree with the Hibbert part but I disagree with the Hans part, the Pacers needed offense and had two players with no offense, another thing I don't understand is why Josh and Foster were in the game for that last second call.

How many people do we need to run plays for on last second shots at the end of the game? We're really only going to have a first and second option off a set play, and those two had been playing well and hitting the glass. Maybe we were supposed to have a quick shot with chance or offensive rebound, or remember the inbound against Miami where JMac had the pass at the rim? Just to get back into the game and have a chance to win was good. Would have been great to win. I'm still disappointed with Granger's D at the end of the fourth to allow the 3.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 03:22 PM
Absolutely. The Pacers lost the last contest with Phoenix by 8 points. At least this game went to overtime. Also, Hans and George got DNP's last time yet we competed better.

Goodness, this team is filled with rookies and second year players. AJ, Tyler, Hibbert, George, Rush, McBob, Lance, etc...all very inexperienced NBA players. Patience...

I agree, I'm just kind of confuse with some of the play calls, like leaving DJ in the game too long and letting Hibbert get abuse without making an adjustment, either way I agree with you that this is a young team and they are still learning.

diamonddave00
02-27-2011, 03:25 PM
I still have a problem with a pg Price shooting 12 times in the last 21 minutes , while having only 1 assist and 4 turnovers. I know he hit 6 of 12 shots but this season he was hitting 36% from the field going in.

He has now got regular run 17+ minutes a game over the last 20 games. Counting today he is shooting 35.4% from 2 point range , 28.3% from 3's, has a total of 37 assist in 343 minutes and 26 turnovers a 1.9 to 1.3 a/to ratio.

I hope to see Lance get some real minutes , AJ when on can hit his shots ( thats been seldom over the 20 games) but is too shot happy for my liking as a back up pg.

BlueNGold
02-27-2011, 03:25 PM
I agree, I'm just kind of confuse with some of the play calls, like leaving DJ in the game too long and letting Hibbert get abuse without making an adjustment, either way I agree with you that this is a young team and they are still learning.

I didn't see the game, but of course I will still give my uninformed opinion...;)

I suspect that Vogel had guys in the game that are executing the defense. The Suns offense came to a grinding halt in the 4th quarter and I suspect Vogel "rewarded" the guys who played good D with court time to motivate the entire team to play better defense. If all that is true, it was a great decision by Vogel. One loss is nothing compared to getting the team to play better D going forward.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 03:25 PM
Also, remember Vogel is a young coach too. He is going to make mistakes. Although I think he played the right people most of the time, he probably shouldn't have had foster in with that last second shot.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2011, 03:25 PM
I listened to the game and Slick was really aggitated about not being able to stop the Suns P&R. His comment was it isn't working today and hasn't worked all season, so you have to make some changes. I can still hear Slick saying after the Suns got the ball "here it comes again!"

I'm very upset with Granger's lack of playing "D". I don't want to hear about his being able to play "D" again. He just flat out doesn't. That and the fact Granger isn't a go to guy when you need clutch play is getting very irritating. Batman he isn't, and the Pacers need a Batman. I'm beginning to wonder if he can fill the roll of Robin at times.

Speaking of Robin, alias Rush, he's like a scared puppy not knowing what to do when he gets the ball. There is a reason there has been an attempt to trade him the last 2 trade deadlines. What you see is all he's ever going to be, period. I said from the day Bird drafted George that he was drafted as Rush's replacement. Rush isn't part of the future core of this team, and the handwriting is on the wall, if Rush will just take the time to read it, that Rush won't be playing in Pacers uni next season.

croz24
02-27-2011, 03:28 PM
price hit some shots, but honestly, i do not like the way he plays the pg position at all. pgs should not be looking to score first, pass second. that sort of play can be fine for a game or two, but over the long haul it is not conducive to winning basketball.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 03:28 PM
I didn't see the game, but of course I will still give my uninformed opinion...;)

I suspect that Vogel had guys in the game that are executing the defense. The Suns offense came to a grinding halt in the 4th quarter and I suspect Vogel "rewarded" the guys who played good D with court time to motivate the entire team to play better defense. If all that is true, it was a great decision by Vogel. One loss is nothing compared to getting the team to play better D going forward.

The thing to me is that there was not a huge defensive drop between Hans and Josh, both were doing a decent job in defending the pick and roll, Roy was the one sucking at it and over helping way too much.

bellisimo
02-27-2011, 03:29 PM
these are the growing pains this young team needs to go through - we couldnt do it the last 3 years when the young players were sitting in the bench during the crucial stretch of the games - so now they're having a go and it and its a good learning period for them...

would i have been happier if they managed to WIN while learning? absolutely! but you take what you can in these situations - not only is the team learning but I think Vogel is also learning as well...

We need experience - that is the main thing we're lacking right now.

Oh and we also need some sort of a reliable play to call in these situations where we can set up a player for a proper shot to win the game for us - these things have been making me cringe ever since Uncle Reg retired...

Sookie
02-27-2011, 03:30 PM
I still have a problem with a pg Price shooting 12 times in the last 21 minutes , while having only 1 assist and 4 turnovers. I know he hit 6 of 12 shots but this season he was hitting 36% from the field going in.

He has now got regular run 17+ minutes a game over the last 20 games. Counting today he is shooting 35.4% from 2 point range , 28.3% from 3's, has a total of 37 assist in 343 minutes and 26 turnovers a 1.9 to 1.3 a/to ratio.

I hope to see Lance get some real minutes , AJ when on can hit his shots ( thats been seldom over the 20 games) but is too shot happy for my liking as a back up pg.

And if you had been watching the games instead of looking at statistics you would know that he had been significantly out playing Collison for a while.

His turnovers were too high today. And he was a bit out of control on his drives. That said, he took over the fourth quarter, on both sides of the floor.

Assists aren't the be all end all of a point guard, and they don't represent how well a guy is running the team. (Turnovers though..) That thought process is so silly. And I know it's been the mantra of the NBA because of Chris Paul, Steve Nash, and Lebron James, but playing a two man game is not the only way to run an offense.

I'm a Price fan, but this idea in general just annoys me. If the team is getting good shots, the PG is doing his job well. AJ doesn't get stat for when he passes the ball to Danny, barks at Danny to pass to Foster, Points at Josh to cut and then Foster passes it to Josh for a dunk. He doesn't get a little number in his stat box, but he sure as heck set up that play, and was the reason it happened. That's called being a good floor general, and it's just as effective as playing a two man game, AJ just doesn't get a stat for it.

BTW, this is why fans of Price tend to be fans of Josh, and vice versa. Both players do a lot of things that they don't get credit for unless you actually watch the game and take notice of it.

That said, AJ didn't run the offense that well today, he was too busy scoring. But he usually does, regardless of whether he gets a crap ton of assists or not.

bellisimo
02-27-2011, 03:30 PM
PS - Price reminds me Travis Best

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 03:32 PM
I listened to the game and Slick was really aggitated about not being able to stop the Suns P&R. His comment was it isn't working today and hasn't worked all season, so you have to make some changes. I can still hear Slick saying after the Suns got the ball "here it comes again!"

I'm very upset with Granger's lack of playing "D". I don't want to hear about his being able to play "D" again. He just flat out doesn't. That and the fact Granger isn't a go to guy when you need clutch play is getting very irritating. Batman he isn't, and the Pacers need a Batman. I'm beginning to wonder if he can fill the roll of Robin at times.

Speaking of Robin, alias Rush, he's like a scared puppy not knowing what to do when he gets the ball. There is a reason there has been an attempt to trade him the last 2 trade deadlines. What you see is all he's ever going to be, period. I said from the day Bird drafted George that he was drafted as Rush's replacement. Rush isn't part of the future core of this team, and the handwriting is on the wall, if Rush will just take the time to read it, that Rush won't be playing in Pacers uni next season.

I agree with you in the Danny part but I disagree with you about Rush, Rush was probably our best player today, he blocked shots, scored when he had to score and got some huge rebounds.

croz24
02-27-2011, 03:33 PM
PS - Price reminds me Travis Best

which can be very good, and VERY bad.

BlueNGold
02-27-2011, 03:35 PM
price hit some shots, but honestly, i do not like the way he plays the pg position at all. pgs should not be looking to score first, pass second. that sort of play can be fine for a game or two, but over the long haul it is not conducive to winning basketball.

DC has a better assist/minute ratio, but he suffers from the same thing. None of our PG's including TJ are that type of PG. Yes, it is not winning basketball and until that's fixed I doubt this group of players can contend...even once they enter their primes. The bottom line is, we need a different PG. Not the biggest issue on the team, but it's still one that will have to be dealt with eventually.

diamonddave00
02-27-2011, 03:36 PM
I watch the games I checked to stats to back up my argument AJ has on whole been very ineffective. He is a shoot 1st pg and with Tyler and George on the court with him he should look to them before hoisting his low % 3's. He hit them tonight by and large over the last 20 games -28%, points out that thats not what you want him doing.

AJ's defense is far superior to Darren , I'll give you that. But I want my back up pg looking to set others up , before looking for his own shot.

idioteque
02-27-2011, 03:36 PM
DC has a better assist/minute ratio, but he suffers from the same thing. None of our PG's including TJ are that type of PG. Yes, it is not winning basketball and until that's fixed I doubt this group of players can contend...even once they enter their primes. The bottom line is, we need a different PG. Not the biggest issue on the team, but it's still one that will have to be dealt with eventually.

I agree, looking at our PG play makes me wish I was some sort of physicist so I could go back in time and steal 19 year old Andre Miller and put him on this team.

Rogco
02-27-2011, 03:38 PM
I agree with you in the Danny part but I disagree with you about Rush, Rush was probably our best player today, he blocked shots, scored when he had to score and got some huge rebounds.

I thought he played some good ball, but Rush is playing Shooting Guard, and needs to be able to score and create. Honestly, I'm pretty sure there was a 10 minute stretch there where I didn't even realize he was playing.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 03:38 PM
AJ is a better defender than Collison, and he sees the floor much better. Only problem is that he doesn't have very much quickness, he takes tough shots, and his jumper has been struggling (Outside of this game) due to his injury, and I think he has too much trust in DJ and Danny.

If Collison would quit being scared and just play than he would be better. Lately they have been about equal.

croz24
02-27-2011, 03:40 PM
they just replayed hill's 3 at the end and i have no idea WTF granger was doing or thinking on that defensive possession. my god that was ugly.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 03:40 PM
AJ is a better defender than Collison, and he sees the floor much better. Only problem is that he doesn't have very much quickness, he takes tough shots, and his jumper has been struggling (Outside of this game) due to his injury, and I think he has too much trust in DJ and Danny.

If Collison would quit being scared and just play than he would be better. Lately they have been about equal.

I actually think he has too much trust in Foster to score.

There's no reason to be nervous about either one of them. They are second year players doing a pretty good job of learning how to play the toughest position on the floor. Expecting them to play like vets is silly.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 03:42 PM
That too. Reason probably being that Foster makes very good cuts which makes it easy for Price to pass to him, but the problem is that Foster can't convert once he gets the ball. :laugh:

BlueNGold
02-27-2011, 03:42 PM
AJ's defense is far superior to Darren

This is a huge deal. AJ is an under-rated defender IMO. Defense at the point is CRUCIAL to the entire defensive scheme.

BTW, I'm not going to say I don't think Darren will ever be a good defender, but the deck is stacked against him. He's a small PG who not only can be pushed around, but more important...the bigger PG's can easily see over him to execute the offense.

BlueNGold
02-27-2011, 03:43 PM
they just replayed hill's 3 at the end and i have no idea WTF granger was doing or thinking on that defensive possession. my god that was ugly.

I used to have Danny as my avatar, but no more. Dude is NOT interested in defense. I swear he just thinks he can let guys score and he'll just turn around and light them up. A tad bit of arrogance. JMHO...

kellogg
02-27-2011, 03:44 PM
I agree with you in the Danny part but I disagree with you about Rush, Rush was probably our best player today, he blocked shots, scored when he had to score and got some huge rebounds.

So true. But the rub on Rush is that the next game he'll be invisible.

Merz
02-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Maybe if Lance can run the offense, like TPTB think he can, Price can play with him as a 2 on offense but a 1 on D. I like somethings Price can do, but he has a little Travis Best top of the key ball pounding in him.

kellogg
02-27-2011, 03:46 PM
I used to have Danny as my avatar, but no more. Dude is NOT interested in defense. I swear he just thinks he can let guys score and he'll just turn around and light them up. A tad bit of arrogance. JMHO...

Somethings wrong when a 38 year old Grant Hill drops nearly 3x his average on your 'best' player...

diamonddave00
02-27-2011, 03:46 PM
I think the size or lack of in both Collison and Price is the reason we will see Stephenson get an opportunity to prove he can play pg for a few minutes a game. To not allow stronger pg's Billups, Stuckey, ect. to just go down low and post.

I think Bird also invisioned Mayo playing some back up pg here for the same reason at 6'4 210 , Mayo has the size to defend more physical points and is a decent enough ball handler to play limited pg minutes.

Whiskeyjim
02-27-2011, 03:47 PM
How did the Suns get 107 FG-A while the Pacers got 87? TO's is a problem w/ this team.

On another note, Hibbert's point production for minutes played is terrible. Someone feed him some potatoes.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 03:50 PM
That too. Reason probably being that Foster makes very good cuts which makes it easy for Price to pass to him, but the problem is that Foster can't convert once he gets the ball. :laugh:

Yup, AJ's got another problem with Dahntay and Hans..who are both playing him silly on the PnP.

Hans leaves the PnP early, leaving AJ double teamed, typically with one option to pass it to. Hans..for an open jumper. It's Price's fault for rewarding Hans with it. When Tyler did it with DC, DC called him back and made him run the PnR again.

Except this game and last game that was defended well..and Dahntay has figured out the proper angle, so that AJ has another person to pass it too. But once the ball goes to Dahntay..it's not coming back.

I wish PG would move a bit, to make himself an option.

BlueNGold
02-27-2011, 03:50 PM
Somethings wrong when a 38 year old Grant Hill drops nearly 3x his average on your 'best' player...

PD needs to fix the thank you button. You might have gotten 10 out of me. BTW, that was old man Hill's season high. That tells me that Danny is not getting it done on defense.

BTW, I don't give a rat's what Danny scored. It's IRRELEVANT!

Sookie
02-27-2011, 03:57 PM
This is a huge deal. AJ is an under-rated defender IMO. Defense at the point is CRUCIAL to the entire defensive scheme.

BTW, I'm not going to say I don't think Darren will ever be a good defender, but the deck is stacked against him. He's a small PG who not only can be pushed around, but more important...the bigger PG's can easily see over him to execute the offense.

DC did a good job on Stuckey though. He has a harder time with guys that can run right past him.

I think it's a lateral quickness thing, not a being tiny thing.

As I said, Price's defense on Nash today was remarkable, if you consider how bad Nash destroyed him just last season. If AJ can improve as much as he has, DC can improve too.

Basketball Fan
02-27-2011, 03:58 PM
Just got back from the game it was fun to watch well except the end of course.

I also think this team needs a clue as to what they are doing 5 shot clock violations is 5 too many.

They also need to learn how to defend the pick and roll. When Grant Hill at his advanced age can score 34 points and be the highest scorer between the two teams that's a problem in itself.

Pacerfan
02-27-2011, 03:59 PM
What really bothered me when Darren was in was his lack of court vision. It was especially noticeable today next to Nash's incredible court vision. Of course I don't expect Darren to have the same amount of court vision as him, but still a little bit would help. He misses Roy so many times in the post at the beginning of possessions when he has position in the post. We had no good fast break buckets with him in because he couldn't find anybody. It really frustrated me. A.J. definitely has better court vision then him....he might be weaker in some other areas such as shooting, quickness but his court vision is definitely better.

A.J. really played a great game. His defense on Nash was amazing. Him stopping Nash was the key to getting back in the game. And you can't forget about those shots he hit either. Now that he's gotten to play some with the same players, he's gotten better at reading what will work.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 03:59 PM
our PnR defense is terrible we didnt deserve to be in that game.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 03:59 PM
So true. But the rub on Rush is that the next game he'll be invisible.

He has played some really good games since coming back, we don't win the Detroit game without him, we don't go into overtime against Detroit without him, we don't stay close on this phoenix game without him.

Again just because he is not flexing his muscles doesn't mean that he is not doing a good job and doesn't care.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:01 PM
Not playing Tyler and George down the stetch puzzled me.


J-mac's defense is terrible it was really hard to watch today.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 04:02 PM
PD needs to fix the thank you button. You might have gotten 10 out of me. BTW, that was old man Hill's season high. That tells me that Danny is not getting it done on defense.

BTW, I don't give a rat's what Danny scored. It's IRRELEVANT!

His highes scoring game since 2005

jcouts
02-27-2011, 04:03 PM
PS - Price reminds me Travis Best

on offense, yes...but Price actually plays defense, which I don't recall ever seeing Travis Best do on a consistent basis

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:05 PM
Funny how people say Lances defense is terrible. He proablly did the best at defending the PnR today. I didnt think his defense was terrible at Uciny? Wonder why JOB made it out to be he was Troy Murphy?

Justin Tyme
02-27-2011, 04:06 PM
I agree with you in the Danny part but I disagree with you about Rush, Rush was probably our best player today, he blocked shots, scored when he had to score and got some huge rebounds.


Yes, Rush did some nice things like getting 8 rebs, but Rush was the 3rd scoring option down the stretch when it was Price and Granger doing it. Foster nor McBob were NOT in the game for "their scoring". This wasn't a time to play a disappearing act on the offensive end. He was needed, but didn't step up to the plate when it was necessary. He couldn't even handle the role of being the 3rd scoring option. Sorry, I expect him to step up when it is necessary, and not hide in the shadows. At this point in the game, he needed to help offensively, the Pacers needed him to show up with some offense, and he just plain failed to do it.

yoadknux
02-27-2011, 04:06 PM
Man you guys flip like crazy.

We win a few games, and you guys already think we're contenders, George will be the next Jordan, Mc turns into Kevin Love, etc. Well of course we won, we played mostly against bad teams (though don't get me wrong, getting a 9-3 record even against bad teams is a huge improvement for us)

Now we lose like, 2 games in a row, And what do I see? "ohhh trade Danny trade Darren Hibbert sucks" Well of course we lost! what, you think that switching the head coach with the assistant coach during the season changes THAT much? Our roster, especially our starting 5, is still pretty lesser compared to most squads. Both Utah and Phoenix have better players than us. Don't forget the better record.

As for Danny and his defense, I agree it needs a bit work, but it's not as bad as you think. Hill had a lot of open looks, but is Danny the reason? Our Defensive rotation is generally bad if you ask me, not Granger. He had 3 steals and 1 block tonight, and I saw at least 1 more deflection by him, so the "on ball" defense is pretty decent.

IMO we lost because:
- Our point guards would rather take a shot than get an assist... Nash got more assists (13) than DC (5) and Price (1) together. Price did handle the ball with confidence however.
- Turnovers, of course. 21 is bad.
- all this improvisation on offense. Except Granger, we have no real consistent scorers. Sometimes other guys step up (Tyler, Roy, DC, Rush, AJ) which is good, but we need more than that. Not instead of these guys, but in addition.

diamonddave00
02-27-2011, 04:07 PM
Basicly the last 10 minutes of the game was virtually 2 1/2 vs 5 on our offensive end.

McRoberts and Foster playing with Rush = 1/2 a player on offense. Rush is hessitant to shoot and you can play off of Foster and Josh. I'm amazed after falling down 7 in overtime they were able to tie it.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 04:08 PM
Funny how people say Lances defense is terrible. He proablly did the best at defending the PnR today. I didnt think his defense was terrible at Uciny? Wonder why JOB made it out to be he was Troy Murphy?

Vogel said he'll probably try and play him at the 2 next game. I think that's a good idea..

I like Dahntay, but maybe him and Lance can be situational at the 2..because when Dahntay's not making his shots, he just kills on offense.

Josh's lack of rebounding and boxing out is a killer. But at the end of the game he was playing the PnR well (not as well as Price and Foster, but still well) That's why he played though. Hans was going to get killed on the PnR with Nash.

But seriously, the boxing out is ridiculous. Him and Roy need to step that up.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Well designed play by Gentry at the end Rush couldnt defend the bigger Frye after Mcbob got picked off. Maybe the only thing we could of done is foul Frye before he shot it. We had a foul to give.



I also wish Josh and the other bigs would set harder picks. We dont get enoght separation off our picks/screens.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:12 PM
Vogel said he'll probably try and play him at the 2 next game. I think that's a good idea..

I like Dahntay, but maybe him and Lance can be situational at the 2..because when Dahntay's not making his shots, he just kills on offense.

Josh's lack of rebounding and boxing out is a killer. But at the end of the game he was playing the PnR well (not as well as Price and Foster, but still well) That's why he played though. Hans was going to get killed on the PnR with Nash.

But seriously, the boxing out is ridiculous. Him and Roy need to step that up.

I like him at the SG better. Just run PnR with him at the SG and he can play spot mintues at the pg as needed. If Price is playing bad he can play point if not let him play SG or SF.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 04:14 PM
Weird. I saw Lance as a nice PG when he played. His defense on Steve Nash was very good. Only thing he could get off is an off balance fadeaway that he didn't hit.

Lance also got some guys wide open and showed some court vision.

If he plays SG he will have problems off the ball and he will have problems with teams making him shoot the jumper. I figure if you just have the ball in his hands and put him in a PnR that is a bigger mismatch than having him stand in the corner or something.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 04:16 PM
I like him at the SG better. Just run PnR with him at the SG and he can play spot mintues at the pg as needed. If Price is playing bad he can play point if not let him play SG or SF.

I think he'd be a significantly better player with Price with him.

He can handle the ball, which he likes to do, but wouldn't have the weight of running the offense, which AJ can do off the ball. And he'd have another ball handler on the floor with him. Better for him to really get his feet wet with some help, and a guard that compliments him.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:16 PM
Vogel said he'll probably try and play him at the 2 next game. I think that's a good idea..

I like Dahntay, but maybe him and Lance can be situational at the 2..because when Dahntay's not making his shots, he just kills on offense.

Josh's lack of rebounding and boxing out is a killer. But at the end of the game he was playing the PnR well (not as well as Price and Foster, but still well) That's why he played though. Hans was going to get killed on the PnR with Nash.

But seriously, the boxing out is ridiculous. Him and Roy need to step that up.

I want a big like Z bo who just is a rebounding machine J-mac really frustrates me. It isnt that hard to find a man and put a body on him. That and defense is why we lost the last 2 games.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2011, 04:16 PM
I used to have Danny as my avatar, but no more. Dude is NOT interested in defense. I swear he just thinks he can let guys score and he'll just turn around and light them up. A tad bit of arrogance. JMHO...



It's called the Troy Murphy syndrome.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:17 PM
Weird. I saw Lance as a nice PG when he played. His defense on Steve Nash was very good. Only thing he could get off is an off balance fadeaway that he didn't hit.

Lance also got some guys wide open and showed some court vision.

If he plays SG he will have problems off the ball and he will have problems with teams making him shoot the jumper. I figure if you just have the ball in his hands and put him in a PnR that is a bigger mismatch than having him stand in the corner or something.

He will be playing PnR reguardless of postion that is his strength.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 04:18 PM
Yes, Rush did some nice things like getting 8 rebs, but Rush was the 3rd scoring option down the stretch when it was Price and Granger doing it. Foster nor McBob were NOT in the game for "their scoring". This wasn't a time to play a disappearing act on the offensive end. He was needed, but didn't step up to the plate when it was necessary. He couldn't even handle the role of being the 3rd scoring option. Sorry, I expect him to step up when it is necessary, and not hide in the shadows. At this point in the game, he needed to help offensively, the Pacers needed him to show up with some offense, and he just plain failed to do it.

You don't make Rush your 3rd scoring option if you put Hans in, this goes back to JOB having Posey closing games "because of his shooting" nobody cares to defend Foster and Josh, so you are pretty much playing 3 againts 5 in the offensive end, I don't care how good you are but is going to be hard to score like that.

By the way the only reason we had a chance to win the game was because Price got hot and was taking it to Brook and Nash, he was able to get open by creating his own shot, neither Rush or Danny were able to do that.

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 04:18 PM
I want a big like Z bo who just is a rebounding machine J-mac really frustrates me. It isnt that hard to find a man and put a body on him. That and defense is why we lost the last 2 games.

We're crazy if we don't make a run at Randolph in the off-season. I'd give him 4yrs/55mil or something like that. He'd probably want more though since he's making $17 mil this year.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:21 PM
We're crazy if we don't make a run at Randolph in the off-season. I'd give him 4yrs/55mil or something like that. He'd probably want more though since he's making $17 mil this year.

Last night he was beasting and most of it was just effort points it was fun to watch. He also has a nice soft touch. he is aveing 20 and 13 beast

Gold
02-27-2011, 04:21 PM
our PnR defense is terrible we didnt deserve to be in that game.

Towards the end of reg they did really well defending it though.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 04:21 PM
You don't make Rush your 3rd scoring option if you put Hans in, this goes back to JOB having Posey closing games "because of his shooting" nobody cares to defend Foster and Josh, so you are pretty much playing 3 againts 5 in the offensive end, I don't care how good you are but is going to be hard to score like that.

By the way the only reason we had a chance to win the game was because Price got hot and was taking it to Brook and Nash, he was able to get open by creating his own shot, neither Rush or Danny were able to do that.

That and our defense.

Problem with the way Price played D on Nash is that now we all know how well he can defend. If you can guard Nash, you can guard anyone. He's not allowed to get beat anymore. :laugh:

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 04:22 PM
We're crazy if we don't make a run at Randolph in the off-season. I'd give him 4yrs/55mil or something like that. He'd probably want more though since he's making $17 mil this year.

We complaint about Josh's defense, wait until you see Zach's :laugh:

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 04:22 PM
Last night he was beasting and most of it was just effort points it was fun to watch. He also has a nice soft touch. he is aveing 20 and 13 beast

Yeah I was watching that game to see him and OJ he'd be a really good fit next to Hibbert I think and I'm not too concerned with his off the court stuff. I don't see that Grizz wanting to pay him and Gasol also.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:24 PM
We complaint about Josh's defense, wait until you see Zach's :laugh:

His defense is overblown. he looked solid last night. He doesnt block shots but he is thick and his strong it isnt bad but it isnt good it is pretty ave. But it is better tha Blake Griffens, Amare's and a few other interior stars.

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 04:25 PM
We complaint about Josh's defense, wait until you see Zach's :laugh:

Zach is also better in every facet of the game except athleticism. He isn't Dwight Howard defense but he's average to maybe a little bit below average.

itzryan07
02-27-2011, 04:26 PM
u guys wanna trade DC already? wow

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 04:26 PM
That and our defense.

Problem with the way Price played D on Nash is that now we all know how well he can defend. If you can guard Nash, you can guard anyone. He's not allowed to get beat anymore. :laugh:

I don't think DC's defense was that bad, the problem here was the pick and roll and Hill destroying Danny, here is another thing I don't understand from Vogel, maybe he didn't want to make Danny mad but I think that once your opponent scores like 25 points on you, your coach has the right to tell another player to guard that guy.

TheDon
02-27-2011, 04:27 PM
We're crazy if we don't make a run at Randolph in the off-season. I'd give him 4yrs/55mil or something like that. He'd probably want more though since he's making $17 mil this year.

If you guys think Josh Mcroberts' defense is bad, can't wait to see what you think of Zach Randolphs'. Plus the guy is a headcase I don't want any part of him. Morway said they do very very in-depth checks on players they think that could potentially be a problem. Maybe they've done their homework on Randolph and that's why you never hear them ever express any interest in him.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 04:29 PM
If you guys think Josh Mcroberts' defense is bad, can't wait to see what you think of Zach Randolphs'. Plus the guy is a headcase I don't want any part of him. Morway said they do very very in-depth checks on players they think that could potentially be a problem. Maybe they've done their homework on Randolph and that's why you never hear them ever express any interest in him.

All they have to do is google his name and find out how crazy he is.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:29 PM
If you guys think Josh Mcroberts' defense is bad, can't wait to see what you think of Zach Randolphs'. Plus the guy is a headcase I don't want any part of him. Morway said they do very very in-depth checks on players they think that could potentially be a problem. Maybe they've done their homework on Randolph and that's why you never hear them ever express any interest in him.

When would we of had the chance to show interest? They werent gonna trade him.

itzryan07
02-27-2011, 04:30 PM
Randolph hasn't done anything crazy since he got traded to Memphis so don't trip, he is a beast

Sookie
02-27-2011, 04:30 PM
I don't think DC's defense was that bad, the problem here was the pick and roll and Hill destroying Danny, he is another thing I don't understand from Vogel, maybe he didn't want to make Danny mad but I think that once your opponent scores like 25 points on you, your coach has the right to tell another player to guard that guy.

DC's defense was what I expected. Nash and Brooks can get around anyone, they were going to get around DC. And then there's the PnR..But the PnR..although the point guard tends to look like an idiot, is not all the PGs fault. It was defended so well in the fourth because of what Price AND Foster were doing. So that was on Hibbert as much as it was on DC.

Yea, Danny was the most disappointing. Not sure why we didn't switch Rush to him.

Trophy
02-27-2011, 04:31 PM
u guys wanna trade DC already? wow

He didn't even have a bad game.

I don't know what the issue is.

He's a good young PG with potential like Roy, Paul, Lance, etc.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 04:33 PM
He didn't even have a bad game.

I don't know what the issue is.

He's a good young PG with potential like Roy, Paul, Lance, etc.

Right, Price got us back in this game, that's why DC didn't come back in. It wasn't because DC played poorly.

TheDon
02-27-2011, 04:36 PM
When would we of had the chance to show interest? They werent gonna trade him.

I don't know he's beent traded for players like Q-Rich once and also for super stars like tim thomas and cuttino mobley. I think we could have offered something better than that if we were honestly interested in him especially since when he was playing for the clippers he was averaging 20 and 9 then. I'd think if we were interested we would have been able to throw something better than that no?

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 04:38 PM
Randolph hasn't done anything crazy since he got traded to Memphis so don't trip, he is a beast

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/27/zach-randolph-drug-invest_n_591705.html

Zach Randolph Drug Investigation: NBA All-Star Called 'Major Marijuana Supplier'

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:39 PM
I don't know he's beent traded for players like Q-Rich once and also for super stars like tim thomas and cuttino mobley. I think we could have offered something better than that if we were honestly interested in him especially since when he was playing for the clippers he was averaging 20 and 9 then. I'd think if we were interested we would have been able to throw something better than that no?

Morway wasnt here then it was Walsh and Bird with Walsh in charge.

TheDon
02-27-2011, 04:41 PM
Morway wasnt here then it was Walsh and Bird with Walsh in charge.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4301324

no it was 2009

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 04:41 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/27/zach-randolph-drug-invest_n_591705.html

Zach Randolph Drug Investigation: NBA All-Star Called 'Major Marijuana Supplier'

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/28/zach-randolph-not-likely-to-be-charged-in-drug-case/

Never charged with anything never even came close to being charged with anything. A friend was watching all of his things in Indy and dealt weed then pointed the finger at Randolph so he wouldn't go to prison.

edit: That's the way that I see it since he was never charged.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 04:41 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/27/zach-randolph-drug-invest_n_591705.html

Zach Randolph Drug Investigation: NBA All-Star Called 'Major Marijuana Supplier'

ever seen Weeds?:laugh:

I doubt he was charged or he would proablly be in jail now

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 04:43 PM
ever seen Weeds?:laugh:

I doubt he was charged or he would proablly be in jail now

who cares? this guy has always been in deep s***.

Shade
02-27-2011, 04:50 PM
I, for one, am sick of watching Foster choke on the last play of every close game. Sit his *** down in those situations already! :mad:

TheDon
02-27-2011, 04:51 PM
I remember when he was still on the blazers and Marion threw him a big party and he *****ed and moaned that he didn't think it was big enough they quoted him in the local newspaper. I was really shocked that it didn't get made out to be a bigger deal by the national media. I had always heard the guy was a douchebag but that was pretty much the clincher.

graphic-er
02-27-2011, 04:53 PM
Four losses in five games. The honeymoon is not only over, thoughts of a divorce are already running through my mind (i.e., finding a new coach in the offseason).

arent we 2-2 since the all-tar break?

Shade
02-27-2011, 05:03 PM
We're 2-4 in the last 6.

BillS
02-27-2011, 05:14 PM
Foster took the shot at 30.9 in regulation because the Pacers were working a short clock to make sure they could get the ball back. Foster also missed that shot because it was tipped up slightly by the defender, which is why it hit the front of the rim. That wasn't some sort of garbage play, it was essentially the same as taking the shot before the clock expires.

AJ was in because he was defending the living daylights out of Nash. Usually Nash gets a bunch of points off the pass back in the pick and roll, when AJ was on him I'd venture to say he got NONE from that play. The problem was the double from the wing to defend the PNR, which is how Grant was wide open something like 5 times through the game.

We lost due to a sloppy beginning of the game, the ridiculous losing track of the shot clock, and turnovers - both teams shot almost the same but the Suns ended up with 15 more attempts than the Pacers did. You can't let that happen. It also was crazy how we were almost totally kept out of the paint by the Suns - and when we could get into Roy in the post, he did his usual "wait for another defender to move toward him before making a play". When we started attacking the basket on drives was when we started to make up ground in the late 3rd and 4th quarters.

The foul to give situation is interesting. It seems to me that the players with the ball at the end for Phoenix were all strong and crafty enough to get into a shooting motion when being fouled. I think Vogel wanted just to let the defense play out and if a foul came in the course of play, fine. Not certain that is a mistake or just a huge gamble.

graphic-er
02-27-2011, 05:28 PM
So after seeing McRoberts overal performance after these 2 games since the trade deadline, I can't not believe any of you would prefer to have him on this team over OJ Mayo knowing that we need a player who can get his own shot. Just utter sillyness.

McKeyFan
02-27-2011, 05:38 PM
King Ramses III :laugh:

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 05:40 PM
So after seeing McRoberts overal performance after these 2 games since the trade deadline, I can't not believe any of you would prefer to have him on this team over OJ Mayo knowing that we need a player who can get his own shot. Just utter sillyness.

It all depends about who was coming back from NO because Mayo can't play power forward or center.

Naptown_Seth
02-27-2011, 05:44 PM
Geez.

Thoughts of a divorce already? You've got to be kidding. I'm not saying Frank is the answer, but let's take a step back.

Most of us here at PD (I'm sure not all) asked for the young players before "he who shall not be named" got fired. Tonight, we got the young players. They will make mistakes. We will lose games.

I want the playoffs as much as the next guy, but let's take a step back. We need these guys to develop. It seems to me that they are. I'd like to develop them and make the playoffs, but this was just a tough game to swallow. Remember, somebody has to lose. It's never easy to lose an OT game, but it's really ok.

On to the next one.
Sheesh, no kidding.

You had Josh make the late layup WITH FOUL for the 3pt play to tie it. You had Rush in Frye's face defending the final shot he hit.

PnR was a problem with JOB and Vogel just isn't going to be able to overhaul the actual strategy this quickly. I don't know if he's the answer, but he sure as F isn't ruining anything.

The team was dying a pathetic death without even doing any youth development. They weren't going to make the playoffs, so expecting it now is still silly.

It's certainly a realistic goal in the sense of achieving it, but it's a bit like the gravy on top of just getting the development process back on track.



Would JOB have let AJ run things late in the game, or let Josh be in there to tie the game up, or have Rush on the floor late or let Lance play at all....

Perspective people. I just don't get the attitudes, maybe it's an age thing.

Peck
02-27-2011, 05:46 PM
So after seeing McRoberts overal performance after these 2 games since the trade deadline, I can't not believe any of you would prefer to have him on this team over OJ Mayo knowing that we need a player who can get his own shot. Just utter sillyness.

Please.

Two games does not a season make and also frankly Josh hasn't looked the same since the trade was announced.

I'm not saying he is right for playing like this but he is still human.

I love how O.J. Mayo, the guy who is not even able to start for the Memphis Grizzlies is now the superstar answer that many people have dreamed of.

Nice player but some of you guys are going way over board with giddyness.

flox
02-27-2011, 05:48 PM
I'm starting to worry that Collison is the player I think he is. Which isn't good, this team can't have that.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 05:50 PM
PnR was a problem with JOB and Vogel just isn't going to be able to overhaul the actual strategy this quickly. I don't know if he's the answer, but he sure as F isn't ruining anything.




If Price and Foster can guard the PnR as well as they did against Nash, they can do it against anyone.

We've got a solution for that.

Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of Hibbert. But see, that adjustment is simple too. If Hibbert's playing well, we live with the lumps of the PnR. If he's struggling and the PnR is killing us, we've got a defensive solution.

Honestly, a huge brightspot on this game. No one plays defense against a Steve Nash PnR like that. Our defense made them stop running it.

Anyway, people need to calm down about this stuff. Let the kids grow up. They'll have bad stretches and good stretches, and quite honestly, seems like Vogel's made a lot of good decisions and encouraged them. He's still learning too. And we can expect growing pains.

Our two young PGs need development, duh. But for those ready to give up on DC, think about how he was playing a month ago. He was fantastic. Obviously he's going through a rough patch and his defense needs to improve. But that's stuff he's capable of. And AJ, not sure why people are complaining about him today. (I don't care that he didn't have as many assists as some would like, he was on the floor with Brandon, Josh, and Foster for a lot of the game. ) When's the last time a Pacer took over the fourth quarter, on both sides of the ball? I'll wait for that answer..

nyballer31
02-27-2011, 05:53 PM
I can't not believe any of you would prefer to have him on this team over OJ Mayo knowing that we need a player who can get his own shot. Just utter sillyness.

If he could create his own shot then he might have made a difference.Since he has not yet shown that ability in the NBA all Bird would have done is get another jump shooter to add to a team full of guys who can't create off the dribble.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 05:58 PM
locker room reaction after the game.


http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/2011/02/27/postgame110227playersflv-1573707/index.html

croz24
02-27-2011, 05:59 PM
If he could create his own shot then he might have made a difference.Since he has not yet shown that ability in the NBA all Bird would have done is get another jump shooter to add to a team full of guys who can't create off the dribble.

mayo hasn't demonstrated that he can create off the dribble???

nyballer31
02-27-2011, 06:08 PM
mayo hasn't demonstrated that he can create off the dribble???



Not in the NBA he hasn't.He can't get around people and has trouble finishing at the basket.He doesn't have the explosiveness that some of these smaller high scoring 2 guards in the league have.That doesn't mean he can't help a team or he isn't a good player.Just that this myth that he is still some special talent who can get to the basket whenever he chooses is overblown.Like I said in another thread there is a far greater chance he ends up like Jamal Crawford or Ben Gordon then he does a 5-7 time all star.Nice player but not somebody I would sleep over not having on my team.

tflo
02-27-2011, 06:09 PM
Wait a minute you guys, why are alot of Pacers Digest members so harsh on Danny Granger? He is obviously the best player you have and I think he doesn't get the respect he deserve .Let me tell you something, as a Phoenix Suns fan we would love to have him on our team. Also, I am a big Indiana Pacers fan.I have been waiting all year to watch this game! Even though the Pacers lost,I was impressed with the Pacers comeback in the second half.

tflo
02-27-2011, 06:13 PM
Wait a minute you guys, why are alot of Pacers Digest members so harsh on Danny Granger? He is obviously the best player you have and I think he doesn't get the respect he deserve .Let me tell you something, as a Phoenix Suns fan we would love to have him on our team. Also, I am a big Indiana Pacers fan.I have been waiting all year to watch this game! Even though the Pacers lost,I was impressed with the Pacers comeback in the second half.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 06:22 PM
Wait a minute you guys, why are alot of Pacers Digest members so harsh on Danny Granger? He is obviously the best player you have and I think he doesn't get the respect he deserve .Let me tell you something, as a Phoenix Suns fan we would love to have him on our team. Also, I am a big Indiana Pacers fan.I have been waiting all year to watch this game! Even though the Pacers lost,I was impressed with the Pacers comeback in the second half.

He is a good player but some people have huge expectations for him, like I said a the PD party last night, Danny is who he is, he is the second best player in a playoffs team and the 3th best player in a champioship team.

croz24
02-27-2011, 06:24 PM
Wait a minute you guys, why are alot of Pacers Digest members so harsh on Danny Granger? He is obviously the best player you have and I think he doesn't get the respect he deserve .Let me tell you something, as a Phoenix Suns fan we would love to have him on our team. Also, I am a big Indiana Pacers fan.I have been waiting all year to watch this game! Even though the Pacers lost,I was impressed with the Pacers comeback in the second half.

he's not as good as you seem to think he is

BlueNGold
02-27-2011, 06:29 PM
I'm starting to worry that Collison is the player I think he is. Which isn't good, this team can't have that.

Welcome home. I'm glad to see you onboard. You are correct that DC is probably not the answer.

There are some good aspects to his game, particularly his potential at the PnR. He is very good in the open floor...might be his best attribute. He is quick and has a good handle. He's a good mid range shooter and decent from the perimeter. It's certainly not all bad. Definitely as good as any PG we have had since Tinsley.

Problem is, he lacks "it" when it comes to being a floor general. He does not see the floor well nor does he seem to make his team mates better. He is also a smallish PG who has problems defending and serious problems guarding bigger PG's.

That said, he may be our best option at the moment....but I'm not really sure of that either.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 06:34 PM
Not in the NBA he hasn't.He can't get around people and has trouble finishing at the basket.He doesn't have the explosiveness that some of these smaller high scoring 2 guards in the league have.That doesn't mean he can't help a team or he isn't a good player.Just that this myth that he is still some special talent who can get to the basket whenever he chooses is overblown.Like I said in another thread there is a far greater chance he ends up like Jamal Crawford or Ben Gordon then he does a 5-7 time all star.Nice player but not somebody I would sleep over not having on my team.

Thing is, a guy like Ben Gordon or Jamal Crawford probably gets us over the hump into a 43-45 win team. That's what we need right now. We BADLY need a 2 that is capable of scoring off the dribble. Mike/Rush aren't cutting it.

If Mayo becomes better than that than that's just gravy. Low risk/High reward.

nyballer31
02-27-2011, 06:42 PM
Thing is, a guy like Ben Gordon or Jamal Crawford probably gets us over the hump into a 43-45 win team. That's what we need right now. We BADLY need a 2 that is capable of scoring off the dribble. Mike/Rush aren't cutting it.

If Mayo becomes better than that than that's just gravy. Low risk/High reward.

I won't argue that he isn't a better player then those two or the low risk/high reward concept but my point being he isn't an elite talent the type of talent people are obsessing over because we didn't aquire during the trade deadline.If you subbed in D.Williams or Anthony and we were seconds away from aquiring them and we didn't get a deal done I would get it.Those are elite talents but OJ Mayo?There are tons of players like that around the league.And as far as having a 2 guard who is capable of scoring off the dribble that player isn't OJ Mayo.

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 06:48 PM
I won't argue that he isn't a better player then those two or the low risk/high reward concept but my point being he isn't an elite talent the type of talent people are obsessing over because we didn't aquire during the trade deadline.If you subbed in D.Williams or Anthony I would get it.Those are elite talents but OJ Mayo?There are tons of players like that around the league.And as far as having a 2 guard who is capable of scoring off the dribble that player isn't OJ Mayo.

I agree, but Josh McRoberts plus a first is an absolute steal for Mayo. I think the idea of fleecing or robbing a team is enticing to all of us, not a fantasy about him becoming the next big thing or whatever At least that is what it is for me. If his value is even going to drop even more after the season is over, he is a big step in improvement for our team.

He's not an elite talent at all, but he can use his handles to create space to get a shot off. Mike, Rush, or even Danny can't do that at all. That's huge for this team that lacks that kind of versatility.

croz24
02-27-2011, 06:53 PM
I won't argue that he isn't a better player then those two or the low risk/high reward concept but my point being he isn't an elite talent the type of talent people are obsessing over because we didn't aquire during the trade deadline.If you subbed in D.Williams or Anthony and we were seconds away from aquiring them and we didn't get a deal done I would get it.Those are elite talents but OJ Mayo?There are tons of players like that around the league.And as far as having a 2 guard who is capable of scoring off the dribble that player isn't OJ Mayo.

i'll admit he's having a down year due to his situation with memphis, but is it really that common that players go off and average 18.5ppg their rookie season and then 17.5ppg with an increased fg% their 2nd year? there are "tons" of players who can do that?

Doddage
02-27-2011, 06:56 PM
A Mayo and George wing combo = :drool:

nyballer31
02-27-2011, 07:03 PM
I agree, but Josh McRoberts plus a first is an absolute steal for Mayo. I think the idea of fleecing or robbing a team is enticing to all of us, not a fantasy about him becoming the next big thing or whatever At least that is what it is for me. If his value is even going to drop even more after the season is over, he is a big step in improvement for our team.


He's not an elite talent at all, but he can use his handles to create space to get a shot off. Mike, Rush, or even Danny can't do that at all. That's huge for this team that lacks that kind of versatility.



I would argue that as inconsistant Danny is getting to the basket the same can be said about OJ Mayo.If we aquired somebody like OJ Mayo we still run into the problem of who do we give the ball to with 15 seconds left in the game to create there own shot.He's just not that type of player.

I do agree with you it would have been a very good deal if it went through in terms of upgrading team talent but his talent is still not something I'm going to lose sleep over not aquiring.He's not as difference maker.

tflo
02-27-2011, 07:04 PM
he's not as good as you seem to think he is


Danny Granger.

2010-2011 17th best scorer in the NBA


2009-2010 8th best scorer in the NBA

2008-2009 5th best scorer in the NBA.

he is alot better than you think he is.

Hicks
02-27-2011, 07:04 PM
It was our execution (lack thereof) that drove me crazy when it wasn't boring me to tears.

Running a pick and roll is great... unless, of course, you don't set an actual good, solid pick, and/or the ballhandler doesn't ever actually USE THE DAMN THING. These were problems way too often. Here's a hint guys: It doesn't work if you don't actually do it right!

Getting the ball in the low post to your center is great... unless, of course, there is no weakside action, no cutters, and the defense is allowed to just focus exclusively on your center, who hesitates as if he expects one or more of you to do something you're not actually going to do, resulting in (if you're lucky) a tough/bad shot by your center, if not a turnover.

Defending the pick and roll is great... unless to do so you leave their jumpshooters with 15 miles of room to comfortably fire away again and again, with an easy passing lane for the point guard to get it to them quickly.

And to go along with that, sometimes the defense was even worse. Sometimes our bigs got stuck in no man's land, 'guarding' the ballhandler too much to defend the player rolling to the basket, but not doing a good enough of a job on said ballhandler to actually disrupt what he's doing, allowing him to pick from an open shot and at least one or two passes to players in a position to score or shoot.

croz24
02-27-2011, 07:07 PM
Danny Granger.

2010-2011 17th best scorer in the NBA


2009-2010 8th best scorer in the NBA

2008-2009 5th best scorer in the NBA.

he is alot better than you think he is.

lol you just don't get it...

MarvelousMarvin
02-27-2011, 07:11 PM
I hope we make a run at Gallo with picks/Granger.

nyballer31
02-27-2011, 07:14 PM
i'll admit he's having a down year due to his situation with memphis, but is it really that common that players go off and average 18.5ppg their rookie season and then 17.5ppg with an increased fg% their 2nd year? there are "tons" of players who can do that?

What i meant is there are tons of players in the league that at one point or the other have averaged 18-20 points a game at the 2 guard spot.I never said he didn't have any talent or couldn't be a good player, a matter of fact I think he has a high basketball IQ and is a skilled player.Unfortunately for him he's not 6'7, he's a undersized two guard who isn't explosive and thats a killer for a 6'4 two guard that doesn't have a long wingspan.When you add that up I put him in the good player catagory but somebody who isn't a star.

What I'm saying isn't new these are the same questions people had when he came out.The feeling was if he could play the pg spot he could become a star but he just doesn't have that second gear, change of direction speed needed to play that spot.

xIndyFan
02-27-2011, 07:19 PM
What i meant is there are tons of players in the league that at one point or the other have averaged 18-20 points a game at the 2 guard spot.I never said he didn't have any talent or couldn't be a good player, a matter of fact I think he has a high basketball IQ and is a skilled player.Unfortunately for him he's not 6'7, he's a undersized two guard who isn't explosive and that puts him in the good player catagory but somebody who isn't a star. . .

:iagree:mayo was a target of oppotunity rather than a long term plan. don't think bird say him as the key component of anything. just an upgrade at backup wing spots.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 07:22 PM
Guys I was one of the people that wanted Mayo but can we please stop talking about Mayo? I am sorry but is getting old.

nyballer31
02-27-2011, 07:25 PM
:iagree:mayo was a target of oppotunity rather than a long term plan. don't think bird say him as the key component of anything. just an upgrade at backup wing spots.


I think your right but the problem is alot of fans saw the move as more then that.Otherwise we wouldn't still be talking about it.

DaveP63
02-27-2011, 07:50 PM
Things that I noticed:

DC is not much when he has to fight through a screen. He will get rubbed off every time. Price and Stevenson see or sense the screen and go over or under, but DC will get picked almost every time.

Our starting unit rebounding was very poor. No boxing out and very little hustle.

Rush made some very good defensive plays. Give him credit.

How in the name of God can you have that many shot clock violations and a bunch more near misses? Beyond horrible.

Danny Granger got torched by a 38 year old man. Yes, he got his, but he sure as hell didn't do anything to slow down Grant Hill. Fatigue did.

Nice crowd and pretty loud. Loved the atmosphere.

tflo
02-27-2011, 07:59 PM
lol you just don't get it...

What the hell do expect him to do. Single handedly win every game by him self.

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 08:05 PM
What the hell do expect him to do. Single handedly win every game by him self.

No but I expect him to play 100% on both ends of the floor all the time he needs to lead by example.

Hoop
02-27-2011, 08:13 PM
What the hell do expect him to do. Single handedly win every game by him self.
Unfortunately, I believe a lot of folks do.

Danny's a very good player, with some limitations. He's not quick, does not have good lateral quickness, not a very good leaper. I think he does very well with what he's got.

Plus he's signed to a pretty cheap contract based on production, I don't see how we could do much better.

We're not going to trade him for someone that's obviously better without adding other players we probably don't want to give up.

We could maybe trade him for someone younger with potential, but I don't want any part of that, we have enough younguns trying to find their way as it is.

oxxo
02-27-2011, 08:13 PM
The backcourt kept getting burned by Nash etc. Granger and others constantly had to help them. Don't put all the blame on Granger.

oxxo
02-27-2011, 08:14 PM
Unfortunately, I believe a lot of folks do.

Danny's a very good player, with some limitations. He's not quick, does not have good lateral quickness, not a very good leaper. I think he does very well with what he's got.

Plus he's signed to a pretty cheap contract based on production, I don't see how we could do much better.

We're not going to trade him for someone that's obviously better without adding other players we probably don't want to give up.

We could maybe trade him for someone younger with potential, but I don't want any part of that, we have enough younguns trying to find their way as it is.

Yes, alot of people here seem to have some crazy expectations. They seem to think that we should win out the entire season and Granger should be leading the way averaging a triple double while playing lockdown D :\

joeyd
02-27-2011, 08:21 PM
I will start with a disclaimer that I am a Foster fan, and also one that has been wanted to see Lance get some action.

About Lance, I was glad to see Vogel put him in early, and I had actually given some thought before the game about the possibility that he might match him up with Nash. In today's article in the Star, it was brought up that no one can really stop Nash, so why not throw Lance at him, since Lance has really not yet been scouted. Putting him out there was not such a bad move, though I wish we could have seen more of him to this point.

Now, with Foster, even being a fan of his, I certainly wish he could hit some more of those put-backs, but it really is hard to criticize him for some that he misses, and it is simply ridiculous to criticize Vogel for leaving him in the game in the waning seconds. Hibbert is taller, takes more shots than Jeff, but my recollection is that he misses a bunch of easy shots as well. As BillS pointed out so eloquently in an earlier post, it's not like Jeff is the first option. He doesn't shoot much, and probably 25% of his looks come as the last option as the shot is running down. Don't crucify him b/c he missed that last jumper. Shoot, I'm grateful he didn't let the clock expire and at least put something up, and I'm certainly glad he was there to grab that rebound and put up the shot that finally put us ahead with 30-plus seconds remaining. Many of you seem to have forgotten about that.

yoadknux
02-27-2011, 08:27 PM
Danny Granger.

2010-2011 17th best scorer in the NBA


2009-2010 8th best scorer in the NBA

2008-2009 5th best scorer in the NBA.

he is alot better than you think he is.
Well, the reason some people here don't like Granger is that even though he puts up great numbers, the team isn't successful.
Personally, I disagree and think one guy can only do as much... he's our best player... Most people here start taking him playing good for granted, so when he screws up on defense or misses a buzzer beater, you see all sorts of "OMG TRADE HIM OMG". But if he scores 25 pts, 6 assists and 3 steals it means nothing to them.
And also there is this whole "Paul George is the Next Huge Superstar" festival...

joeyd
02-27-2011, 08:27 PM
Ok, this is going to be the 1st time I question Vogel, 3 seconds left and you call a play with Josh and Foster in? why? I like the fact that he stay with AJ Price when he got hot but why no replace Josh with Hans if you are struggling to score? hard loss to swallow,good D by Rush better shot by Frye. Go Pacers :mad:

I am questioning Vogel after this game too for the first time. Not for the same reason as Vnzla however.

We are not several games into the Vogel era at which point it was admitted that he had spent some time on offense, so he began working on defense. That's great, but there's a problem with an offense that has so many shot clock violations, and not just in the final minutes as one poster mentioned. In fact, I have never seen one team have so many such violations. I think we are also seeing a lot of traveling by Pacers players. These are coachable situations that have to be addressed.

The other issue is that I believe we had a foul to give in OT. The Suns wind the clock down to 3 seconds and call a time out. The Pacers should have fouled on the inbounds pass. To me this is a low-risk move, and forces perhaps a low percentage catch and shoot play. Not quite sure why Vogel left that foul on the table.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 08:45 PM
We had four team fouls, doesn't five put the other team on the line?

Trophy
02-27-2011, 08:49 PM
This team has changed so much from the start of the season to now.

They played more defense to win their games and now they don't know how to defend.

Time to wake up. Watch some films of November because that was the better Pacers team.

pwee31
02-27-2011, 09:08 PM
Team has to defend and rebound for us to be successful. 2nd chance points have killed this team in recent games we've lost.

Still have to figure out a way to defend the pick & roll better, Phoenix ran that to death and we couldn't stop it.

We're also really bad at recovering on defense. The Suns were very unselfish and had great ball movement which lead to open jump shots for the Suns most of the game

BringJackBack
02-27-2011, 09:09 PM
Hey, at least we have a fairly easy task Tuesday vs. Golden State.. If we lose that one though, than the sky will officially be falling.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 09:10 PM
Here is a picture that Nash posted, Peck and Diamond Dave are in shock.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/1102/gameaction0227/images/gallery-3.jpg

tflo
02-27-2011, 09:13 PM
No but I expect him to play 100% on both ends of the floor all the time he needs to lead by example.

Why does the Indiana Pacers fans only expect Danny Granger to give 100% and no one else, on both ends of the court.But does not expect much from the rest of team .I think Granger scoring is down this year because he is trying to get his teamates involved. Obviously he is a team player, and wants to win.

Trophy
02-27-2011, 09:14 PM
We better get the win Tuesday.

We can't afford to go on a 3 game losing streak and get swept by the Warriors and at home no less.

The players need to wake up, slow down the offense (which DC did do today), play like you care on the offensive end, and don't get pushed around.

Roy needs to play like a 7-2 center, not 6-0 PG when getting defensive rebounds. Box out and be aggressive.

Honestly the only player on this team that's been playing smashmouth basketball is Tyler. He's someone who fights for rebounds and is aggressive.

I like what Vogel has done for the team. He's the coach we've been looking for.

Just hope the players start living up to their words.

CableKC
02-27-2011, 09:27 PM
Here is a picture that Nash posted, Peck and Diamond Dave are in shock.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/1102/gameaction0227/images/gallery-3.jpg
Are they in the picture?

I have no oclue what they look like.

Trophy
02-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Are they in the picture?

I have no oclue what they look like.

They're the 2 to the left of the guy in the DC jersey.

tflo
02-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Well, the reason some people here don't like Granger is that even though he puts up great numbers, the team isn't successful.
Personally, I disagree and think one guy can only do as much... he's our best player... Most people here start taking him playing good for granted, so when he screws up on defense or misses a buzzer beater, you see all sorts of "OMG TRADE HIM OMG". But if he scores 25 pts, 6 assists and 3 steals it means nothing to them.
And also there is this whole "Paul George is the Next Huge Superstar" festival...

I agree with you 100%. Man, I think the PHX Suns would appreciate Danny on there team.

CableKC
02-27-2011, 09:30 PM
One more thing, how was Hansbrough guarding Frye?

The only reason I can think of having McBob in over Hansbrough is because of the height advantage that Frye has over Hansbrough.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 09:30 PM
Are they in the picture?

I have no oclue what they look like.

Right side of Steve Nash head.

Trophy
02-27-2011, 09:31 PM
I agree with you 100%. Man, I think the PHX Suns would appreciate Danny on there team.

It's weird to think about Danny on another team.

He's a great guy and does his best to lead this team.

He does a lot for us and I hope he remains a Pacer.

The Danny/Paul and even Mayo/Lance wingman rotation would be fun to see.

CableKC
02-27-2011, 09:32 PM
They're the 2 to the left of the guy in the DC jersey.
Damn....they sat 2 rows behind Bird? Nice seats.

Trophy
02-27-2011, 09:32 PM
Frye was defended pretty well, but his shot was just a lucky one.

I didn't think it was gonna go in and we were on our way to a second OT.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Danny Granger.

2010-2011 17th best scorer in the NBA


2009-2010 8th best scorer in the NBA

2008-2009 5th best scorer in the NBA.

he is alot better than you think he is.


There is alot more to the game of BB than just being a scorer. Granger is a good player, BUT

he's not a leader

he's not the go to guy

he's not a clutch player

he doesn't make his team mates better

he can't or won't play "D".

He's basically a scorer, and that's about it. There was a reason why he didn't play much in the World games this summer. He can't/won't play "D" thus he got little PT. Coach K played players who could do more than just score.

tflo
02-27-2011, 09:58 PM
There is alot more to the game of BB than just being a scorer. Granger is a good player, BUT

he's not a leader

he's not the go to guy

he's not a clutch player

he doesn't make his team mates better

he can't or won't play "D".

He's basically a scorer, and that's about it. There was a reason why he didn't play much in the World games this summer. He can't/won't play "D" thus he got little PT. Coach K played players who could do more than just score.
ok look at the stats. not to bad.
FGM
8-17

3PM
3-7

FTM
6-7

REB
4

AST
6

STL
3

BLK
1

not to bad. What do you think?

pacer4ever
02-27-2011, 10:01 PM
ok look at the stats. not to bad.
FGM
8-17

3PM
3-7

FTM
6-7

REB
4

AST
6

STL
3

BLK
1

not to bad. What do you think?
What do I think?

D FENSE CLAP* CLAP* CLAP* D FENSE

D FENSE CLAP* CLAP* CLAP* D FENSE

D FENSE CLAP* CLAP* CLAP* D FENSE

Grant Hill only scored 300 pts

Justin Tyme
02-27-2011, 10:06 PM
you see all sorts of "OMG TRADE HIM OMG".


IIRC, you have made that statement twice. I have read this thread from the beginning to the end, and posters aren't saying Granger needs to be traded. It's being pointed out what his liabilities are.

Myself, I'm upset with Granger's "D" in this game, and overall seasons "D". Posters, like yourself, point Granger's 26 points in the game, but you avoid/gloss over mentioning he gave up 8 or more points to Hill while not guarding him. The Pacers only lost by 2 points in OT. If Granger had played better "D" on a 38 yo Hill, this game won't have even gone to OT, b/c the Pacers would have one this game in regulation.

I'm not saying Granger is solely responsible for this loss, but his lack of "D" heavily contributed to the loss. I want the Granger that left his teeth on the floor against the Celtics a few years ago. That's not asking for too much. Put the effort on both sides of the court. I can live with Granger scoring less, and playing good "D". I can't live with a player who only scores and plays poor "D".

Justin Tyme
02-27-2011, 10:19 PM
Honestly the only player on this team that's been playing smashmouth basketball is Tyler. He's someone who fights for rebounds and is aggressive.



Oh, and Foster doesn't?? How did he get those rebs? He didn't get them the Troy Murphy's way!

DrFife
02-27-2011, 10:26 PM
I want the Granger that left his teeth on the floor against the Celtics a few years ago. That's not asking for too much.

I mean, sacrificing an eye ball or a left testicle might be a bit pricey, but teeth? Meh.

pwee31
02-27-2011, 10:30 PM
If Collison played defense the entire game, like he does with 2 minutes left in a close game, we would all be happy with his defense.

Didn't see it with Price being the hot hand today, but Collison steps up and pressures the ball very well late in close games, doesn't put in the effort the rest of the game it seems, too casual

Unclebuck
02-27-2011, 11:24 PM
Not playing Tyler and George down the stetch puzzled me.


J-mac's defense is terrible it was really hard to watch today.

o

joeyd
02-27-2011, 11:43 PM
We had four team fouls, doesn't five put the other team on the line?

I'm talking about OT. We had 0 fouls, and so I think you have 1 to give in the final 2 minutes, no?

skip2mylou
02-27-2011, 11:47 PM
Grant Hill is awesome. 38 years old and still so good... always guarding the other teams best wing-player...can still score....would love to have him on the Pacers.

He's still a top 5-10 SF in this league, imo.

I would still have a hard time picking guys like Granger, Wallace, Butler over him for my team.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 11:48 PM
I'm talking about OT. We had 0 fouls, and so I think you have 1 to give in the final 2 minutes, no?

oh wow..yea, not sure either. Other than it's a team full of vets, and if they tried to foul, the team would have made like they were shooting.

vnzla81
02-27-2011, 11:53 PM
Grant Hill is awesome. 38 years old and still so good... always guarding the other teams best wing...can still score....would love to have him on the Pacers.

He's still a top 5-10 SF in this league, imo.

Top 5-10? Maybe today :laugh:

joeyd
02-27-2011, 11:56 PM
Yes, but really we are just talking about a more aggressive defense of the inbounds pass. If you foul someone while going for the ball, it's not a shooting foul when you have one to give. Plus, again it wasn't a catch and shoot situation, but one where they wanted a set shot while draining the clock to zero, as they did.

skip2mylou
02-27-2011, 11:58 PM
Top 5-10? Maybe today :laugh:

yeah maybe not... I just love his game...

It's just sad to see guys like Granger give half the effort on a regular basis than a 38 year old man who's only playing because he loves the game too much.

MaHa3000
02-28-2011, 12:05 AM
locker room reaction after the game.


http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/2011/02/27/postgame110227playersflv-1573707/index.html

My comments about this video:

AJ's basketball IQ seem good for a second year player.

Foster has some grey hairs.

Lance has benifited from being around this group of guys.

pacer4ever
02-28-2011, 12:40 AM
Why does the Indiana Pacers fans only expect Danny Granger to give 100% and no one else, on both ends of the court.But does not expect much from the rest of team .I think Granger scoring is down this year because he is trying to get his teamates involved. Obviously he is a team player, and wants to win.

because thats what most good stars do. Even Melo decided to play defense today. He has the ablity but doesnt give the effort sometimes.

Hoop
02-28-2011, 02:06 AM
There is alot more to the game of BB than just being a scorer. Granger is a good player, BUT

he's not a leader

he's not the go to guy

he's not a clutch player

he doesn't make his team mates better

he can't or won't play "D".

He's basically a scorer, and that's about it. There was a reason why he didn't play much in the World games this summer. He can't/won't play "D" thus he got little PT. Coach K played players who could do more than just score.

What the :censored: is wrong with just being a scorer? He can't lead us to a title single handily so he sucks balls? Oh he was on the USA Team, but he didn't play a lot, so he must really be freaking awful, if the best he can do is backup Durant we might as well send him to the D league.

I quoted you saying we need someone better than Danny who's a leader, a go to guy, someone who's clutch, makes his teammates better, and can play lockdown defense. Maybe you should call up Larry and tell them that's what we need, I bet they never thought of that.

Now that we know what we need lets just trade for LeBron, Wade, Kobe or maybe Durant, heck and Westbrook too. What? nobody is going to trade those guys? really we can't just trade Danny for one?

Well maybe we should just draft someone like that, great all around players are easy to get, 10 or 20 in every draft right? Really? they are that hard to get?



IMO, our only hope to be a contender, for anything, in the next 10 years is for Danny to become tied for 2nd or most likely the 3rd best player on the team with in the next few years. One of those guys might be George, the other one is probably not on the team, or in a dream world it's Lance. Either way that's several years away. Trading Danny for a younger player and hopeing said young player will become better just moves the time line farther away.

ilive4sports
02-28-2011, 02:31 AM
The problem today was not Danny's one on one defense. The problem was when our defense got broken down, Danny was very eager to help and Grant Hill is a savvy veteran and exposed him for this. That's why Hill was always open. Granger was helping too early and too often.

Everyone on the team is guilty of this. I notice it with Mike a lot too. He's a good help defender, but is too eager to help. When you have Nash at the PG spot breaking everything down, Grant Hill knows how to work off Nash to make you pay. He did the same things to Brandon when Rush guarded him. Its a big flaw in our defensive system, it has been all year. I hope Vogel changes this. We need to hold guys more accountable on defensive match ups. One on one Danny was fine with Hill.

Danny could have played better defense for sure, but to say it all fell on him was wrong. The whole defense failed. This is why I think our second unit is better defensively. Price is a better defender than Collison so the defense isn't picked apart as easily.

And to say Danny is not clutch after today's game is just wrong. Did he hit the game winning shot? No, but he made his FT's at the end of the game and his some shots down the line. Him and Price were the only ones doing it really.

flox
02-28-2011, 03:05 AM
Welcome home. I'm glad to see you onboard. You are correct that DC is probably not the answer.

There are some good aspects to his game, particularly his potential at the PnR. He is very good in the open floor...might be his best attribute. He is quick and has a good handle. He's a good mid range shooter and decent from the perimeter. It's certainly not all bad. Definitely as good as any PG we have had since Tinsley.

Problem is, he lacks "it" when it comes to being a floor general. He does not see the floor well nor does he seem to make his team mates better. He is also a smallish PG who has problems defending and serious problems guarding bigger PG's.

That said, he may be our best option at the moment....but I'm not really sure of that either.

Agreed with this. While he is a 2nd year PG, I was still hoping for a leap, not this...


very late edit: Anyone else feel like McRoberts didn't fight hard enough to get over Dudley?

pacer4ever
02-28-2011, 07:09 AM
Agreed with this. While he is a 2nd year PG, I was still hoping for a leap, not this...


very late edit: Anyone else feel like McRoberts didn't fight hard enough to get over Dudley?

Typical Josh but Dundley set a decent pick but ya he didnt fight at all.

Justin Tyme
02-28-2011, 07:38 PM
[QUOTE=Hoop;1181374]

What the :censored: is wrong with just being a scorer? He can't lead us to a title single handily so he sucks balls? Oh he was on the USA Team, but he didn't play a lot, so he must really be freaking awful, QUOTE]


Sorry, you have a problem understanding there is more to JUST being scorer. I guess Bird should just look to trade for, sign, or draft players that can only score. Forbid Granger being anything, but a scorer. Forget doing the things I mentioned, b/c they are useless in winning games when you have a scorer in Granger. Sorry, for wanting a well rounded player who can make his teammates better, who can play "D", for wanting a clutch go to guy, etc.

Using a little reading comprehension and you would have notice I said Granger was a "good player". Yes, he was good enough to get on the USA team, BUT he wasn't good enough in areas such as playing "D" to beat out other players for PT. This was discussed here on PD this summer in case you have forgotten. It was also wondered if Granger would comeback this season with an attitude to show the USA team he could play "D", etc.

Unless Granger expands his game from being only a scorer, I don't ever envision seeing him an Allstar again. He has to become more than a 1 dimensional player. Again, there's more to BB than scoring. As far as I'm concerned, parts of Granger's game has regressed from what it was a few years ago. I want to see the Granger expand his game to be the player I know he can be! I don't believe that is too much to ask or expect.