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View Full Version : Our starters are getting bailed out by the Goons a lot.. If this keeps up, what do we do?



BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 03:09 PM
Our starters have been putting craptastic efforts in the beginning of games and sucking the life out of us in the beginning of games. Josh and Brandon/Mike aren't scorers, Danny has terribad first quarters, and DC has been too careless, and Roy is the only one who consistently both hard and smart at the beginning of games. We have a bad starting lineup.

Our defense is bad in the starting lineup too. Josh goes on bad streaks with his variables and he has huge rebounding and interior defense issues at times and he should be best utilized as a help defender.. That would mean that he's probably a good bench player. Problem is that Tyler isn't any better of an interior defender.

DC and Danny are very bad perimeter defenders and Rush has bad help defense problems in my opinion. Neither of them ever do any good double teams and it hurts us (I don't know if that is in the gameplan or not, but last night it should have been).

Our bench has been bringing us back into all of these games and it's getting frustrating expecting our starters to get us down early out of the gate. They are a very, very good bench. Tyler, Dahntay, and Paul are very good for us and Price and Foster pour in their contributions too. I repeat, they are a very, very good bench.

So my question is that if things keep going this way, what do we do? Do we split up the bench and put Paul or Tyler into the starting lineup or do we keep our bench extremely superior hoping that DC or Danny have a good start to not get killed in the beginning of games?

Do we split up the Goon Squad to improve the starting lineup or do we just tough it out?

Kid Minneapolis
02-26-2011, 03:23 PM
It's a decent tactic... very few teams have a bench that can keep up with ours, so if our starters can go in and keep it a game, our bench comes in and just makes the other teams' bench look silly. That has to be a problem for opposing teams who know that they have to get huge leads on us before our bench comes in... and hope it's enough.

That said... I don't quite understand why our starters aren't getting the job done, either.... if they would, our team would be very very tough to beat.

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 03:26 PM
tough it out. if for no other reason than some of the starters would get upset and play worse because they had been demoted. the team is young and young players lack the mental toughness of vets.

right now the goon squad has an identity and style that makes up for them not being starters.

PacersPride
02-26-2011, 03:28 PM
I think it would be wise to give the starting linuep a chance to adjust to Rush in the rotation.

the offense will suffer with mike out some, but defensively we should pick it up. lets give it at least 5-10 more games before we start making any significant changes like starting a rookie.

Sookie
02-26-2011, 03:29 PM
keep the goon squad in tact. They've developed their chemistry, you split them up and you could screw up both units.

The starters need to adjust to having Brandon with them, and DC's in a little slump. Let them work out of it.

OakMoses
02-26-2011, 03:35 PM
The team has the same problem we've had for years: we have really good depth but poor top-end talent. Our 6-10 guys are nearly as good as any team's in the league. A good portion of the reason they look so good, however, is that they're playing against 2nd tier competition. If you move them into the starting lineup, they're not necessarily going to look any better than the guys they're replacing.

Cherokee
02-26-2011, 03:40 PM
It didn't keep up -- the Goons hit 6 of 32 last game.

smj887
02-26-2011, 03:43 PM
Start the bench! Bench the starters! Let the starting bench wear out the other team's starters, while our starters come off the bench to beat up on the other team's bench! HIRE O'BRIEN!

BillS
02-26-2011, 03:50 PM
I suspect that in future, for teams without the Big Kahunas, having a great bench is going to be the only way to stay in games. Unless there is a bench player who would fit the role of the starter he is switching out for as well as improving it, there's no reason to move anyone up.

Yet.

troyc11a
02-26-2011, 04:03 PM
The team has the same problem we've had for years: we have really good depth but poor top-end talent. Our 6-10 guys are nearly as good as any team's in the league. A good portion of the reason they look so good, however, is that they're playing against 2nd tier competition. If you move them into the starting lineup, they're not necessarily going to look any better than the guys they're replacing.

If they were truly better than the guys they were replacing, they wouldnt be on the bench to begin with. Starting five talent needs to improve. A couple moves this summer can remedy that.

How many teams have talent like George and Hans coming off the bench. Not to mention that Foster plays hard and brings it every night.

Our point guard and power forward are both young and need to improve. Roy is not ready to be the "man" yet and may never be. Danny is a good no#2 option. Now, where can we find an elite scorer?

Kid Minneapolis
02-26-2011, 05:12 PM
I'm actually curious to see Stephenson now. I know this sounds crazy, but his offensive prowess was *impressive*. I've heard comments from insiders say he's the most talented guy on the team. Seems like the main reason he's not seen the floor was his legal actions and O'Brien threw him in the doghouse (which both situations have been... "cleared up")... and his defense wasn't up to snuff.

Let's throw him out there and see what he can do. Maybe he's the offensive straw to stir the starters. Dude is huge and strong and relentless, with stupidly good court vision.

dlewyus
02-26-2011, 06:19 PM
I'm pretty sure the goons would beat the starters if they played each other. At least until Foster gets tired or hurt. That being said, I'd still keep the goons together. At least something is working, no need to destroy that.

Eleazar
02-26-2011, 06:25 PM
I'm actually curious to see Stephenson now. I know this sounds crazy, but his offensive prowess was *impressive*. I've heard comments from insiders say he's the most talented guy on the team. Seems like the main reason he's not seen the floor was his legal actions and O'Brien threw him in the doghouse (which both situations have been... "cleared up")... and his defense wasn't up to snuff.


If that was the only reason, and he really has the most talent he would have been playing by now. The truth is if he really is that talented there are other reasons other than legal, JOB, and defense that are keeping him on the bench. Most likely I would guess it has to do with how good of a team player he is, and how smart he is.

speakout4
02-26-2011, 06:30 PM
If that was the only reason, and he really has the most talent he would have been playing by now. The truth is if he really is that talented there are other reasons other than legal, JOB, and defense that are keeping him on the bench. Most likely I would guess it has to do with how good of a team player he is, and how smart he is.
I'm not disagreeing with you but give him some minutes to see if he is worth keeping and also help his morale. I expect that he will see some time soon and if he doesn't that will be disappointing.
Every player should get at least 15 minutes of playing time a season.

what does it say when your b/u team has an identity and your starters don't?

PaceBalls
02-26-2011, 07:06 PM
I'm pretty sure the goons would beat the starters if they played each other. At least until Foster gets tired or hurt. That being said, I'd still keep the goons together. At least something is working, no need to destroy that.

I think so too, in fact I think they would crush them and probably do whenever they have a scrimmage. Our starters would get never get a rebound and they are basically a jump shooting unit... 1 & done.

The Goon squad is all about points in the paint and drawing fouls, that is how you win in the NBA.

The goon squad might get beat once in a while just by the pure shooting skill of the starters, but that is not how the game is played now days. The game is won by using the referees to your advantage.

speakout4
02-26-2011, 07:13 PM
I think so too, in fact I think they would crush them and probably do whenever they have a scrimmage. Our starters would get never get a rebound and they are basically a jump shooting unit... 1 & done.

The Goon squad is all about points in the paint and drawing fouls, that is how you win in the NBA.

The goon squad might get beat once in a while just by the pure shooting skill of the starters, but that is not how the game is played now days. The game is won by using the referees to your advantage.
At the least they are mentally tougher, more determined, and don't take the night off.

Eleazar
02-26-2011, 07:14 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you but give him some minutes to see if he is worth keeping and also help his morale. I expect that he will see some time soon and if he doesn't that will be disappointing.
Every player should get at least 15 minutes of playing time a season.

what does it say when your b/u team has an identity and your starters don't?

I don't disagree, I was stating that if he is that good offensively there has to be other reasons for him not to be playing.


I think it says the starters don't have a leader.

IndyPacer
02-26-2011, 07:18 PM
First, having a stellar bench isn't exactly a "problem." If Vogel can get/ keep the team on board with the supposed smashmouth style, every team will dread playing us, especially the wings and whoever gets stuck being harassed and bruised up by Tyler.

I think we shoud give Vogel a chance to help Rush get integrated into the lineup and new system. He was injured until recently and missed time while JOB was ousted and everyone else started learning Vogel's new system. His shooting and defense should be welcome assets in the starting lineup when he gets back on track. I think we'll be fine.

PaceBalls
02-26-2011, 07:23 PM
I don't really want to break up the goon squad, just because I think they are the best unit we have with the best chemistry. But if I had to, I would move AJ into the starting unit.

AJ has been playing alot better than DC on both sides of the ball, he could make the starters better than any other player switch I think.

This is where it starts to get difficult for Coach Frank. How long does he stick with the rotations he has established? Will tinkering with them create friction in the locker room? Is it worth the risk? He needs to keep the guys believing in him, and in order to do that he needs to believe in his players. So I think he will stick with the rotations he has established until it goes really, really wrong.

This is a very crucial time for the club. The next few games are going to make or break the season and any hope of the playoffs for us.

Eleazar
02-26-2011, 07:30 PM
I don't really want to break up the goon squad, just because I think they are the best unit we have with the best chemistry. But if I had to, I would move AJ into the starting unit.

AJ has been playing alot better than DC on both sides of the ball, he could make the starters better than any other player switch I think.

This is where it starts to get difficult for Coach Frank. How long does he stick with the rotations he has established? Will tinkering with them create friction in the locker room? Is it worth the risk? He needs to keep the guys believing in him, and in order to do that he needs to believe in his players. So I think he will stick with the rotations he has established until it goes really, really wrong.

This is a very crucial time for the club. The next few games are going to make or break the season and any hope of the playoffs for us.

Right now everything is still working. Of our 4 loses 2 of them were against the Heat, and one against the Jazz who are a better team than we are right now. The only lose that shouldn't have happened was against the Pistons. So nothing is broken so I see no reason to make any changes. If Collision has a long bad streak, or the team just isn't playing well for 6+ games then you might make a change. We aren't even close to needing to make a change. Tweaking at this point would cause more harm than help. If any tweak should be made now it isn't a tweak in the line-up, but a tweak in playing time.

joeyd
02-27-2011, 01:27 AM
I'm pretty sure the goons would beat the starters if they played each other. At least until Foster gets tired or hurt. That being said, I'd still keep the goons together. At least something is working, no need to destroy that.

Your first line is interesting given the fact that I remember something that was either posted here or in the Indy Start about a pre-season practice when the bench players were actually playing against the starters. I remember that it was Foster, George, AJ, Lance, and someone else against Hibbert, Granger, Rush and a couple others. The comment had something to do with the bench players walloping the starters.

However, I agree that the best thing is to let the bench be the bench. Let the starters learn. And they ARE learning. For example, I've noticed that Hibbert has been picking up the quick fouls at a much reduced frequency, and McBob is picking up on some defensive tricks from Jeff.

Trader Joe
02-27-2011, 01:41 AM
I vote that we stop calling them the goon squad/goons/insert unnecessary nickname here before I murder someone.

Sookie
02-27-2011, 01:49 AM
I vote that we stop calling them the goon squad/goons/insert unnecessary nickname here before I murder someone.

well they call themselves that..:laugh:

AesopRockOn
02-27-2011, 04:32 AM
I vote that we stop calling them the goon squad/goons/insert unnecessary nickname here before I murder someone.

Sounds like something a goon would say...

PacerHound
02-28-2011, 02:25 PM
I would not speak for all but to bring Tyler into the starting unit would take away from his game due to having to defer to Hibbert as our down low post up man and to Granger as the scorer. Yes, I think personally he is a better player than McRoberts but switching the two of them does neither of them any good in my opinion.

PacersPride
02-28-2011, 02:47 PM
I would not speak for all but to bring Tyler into the starting unit would take away from his game due to having to defer to Hibbert as our down low post up man and to Granger as the scorer. Yes, I think personally he is a better player than McRoberts but switching the two of them does neither of them any good in my opinion.

i do not want to see the coaching staff do anything hasty, but with the recent switch from Dun to Rush, we may need to start tyler to get more offense in the starting lineup.

its an idea Vogel may be considering with mcrob/foster backing up both the starters.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2011, 02:58 PM
i do not want to see the coaching staff do anything hasty, but with the recent switch from Dun to Rush, we may need to start tyler to get more offense in the starting lineup.

its an idea Vogel may be considering with mcrob/foster backing up both the starters.

The problem with that theory is that unlike Dunleavy, who got his points within the flow of the offense, Tyler does not add more offense.

He simply adds different offense.

PacersPride
02-28-2011, 06:18 PM
The problem with that theory is that unlike Dunleavy, who got his points within the flow of the offense, Tyler does not add more offense.

He simply adds different offense.

Im not saying its the solution but it is the first change i would want to see made if there is going to be one.

Tyler would add a couple more offensive rebounds than Josh, and if teams want to double down on Roy then Tyler may be able to get open for the free throw line extended jump shot. Roy is going to have to learn to pass out of double teams, and Josh is not aggressive enough offensively to take advantage.

I think Josh has more scoring ability than we give him credit for, with the first unit he is the 5th option. On the second unit he might have a few more chances to get buckets.

Im simply basing this mostly on the fact we were willing to deal Josh, and therefore Hansbro's minutes would have went up to 35 a game. The front office must feel comfortable enough with Tyler starting to make that kind of move.

Again, im not saying its the solution but is the first option i would see Vogel consider.

Whiskeyjim
02-28-2011, 09:44 PM
Im not saying its the solution but it is the first change i would want to see made if there is going to be one.

Tyler would add a couple more offensive rebounds than Josh, and if teams want to double down on Roy then Tyler may be able to get open for the free throw line extended jump shot. Roy is going to have to learn to pass out of double teams, and Josh is not aggressive enough offensively to take advantage.

I think Josh has more scoring ability than we give him credit for, with the first unit he is the 5th option. On the second unit he might have a few more chances to get buckets.

Im simply basing this mostly on the fact we were willing to deal Josh, and therefore Hansbro's minutes would have went up to 35 a game. The front office must feel comfortable enough with Tyler starting to make that kind of move.

Again, im not saying its the solution but is the first option i would see Vogel consider.The issue is that Tyler is a different player with Grainger in the game.

In fact, Grainger tends to almost act like a PG in a lot of games. The whole starting line-up is very accustomed to running the offense through Grainger's hands. Why not play him at PG?

The other option is for Vogel to say, "hey, we're coming down the stretch, and it is time to get serious. Let's start the goon squad for awhile until you starters get serious." If they only play 3-5 minutes, it will light up both the starters and the opposition to have the Goons after them. I believe it would be a good move, even if it's temporary.

joeyd
02-28-2011, 10:23 PM
Bottom line is that that starters are not getting it done in the first quarter. How many times have you said to yourself, "we should be up or we should be up by more points than we are against this crappy team?" Starting the Goon Squad is not the answer. Patching up the glaring weaknesses with the starters that we have, and which had done decent in the past, is the key.

BringJackBack
03-02-2011, 08:33 PM
:bump:

Can we please consider a change in the starting lineup now that they are officially going to get their butts handed to them over the next couple of games?