PDA

View Full Version : Pacers weaknesses are glaring



doctor-h
02-25-2011, 10:06 PM
I believe the Pacers most glaring need is at point guard. We have shoot first point guards who are more interested in getting their own than getting their teammates involved. They pound and pound the ball, Collison is very poor on defense, Price has turned into a gun. I would much rather have a point guard who plays defense and distributes. Collison is young and might improve but I got a feeling he doesn't have the basketball IQ to be a good point guard. The Pacers have had this problem for years and still cannot solve it. Its Travis Best, Jamale Tinsley, T J Ford all over again. We also don't have anyone that can take over a game and get and hit a tough shot in crunch time. Maybe Paul George down the road but not now. Danny is one of the worst ball handlers I have seen. If you notice teams are trapping him because they all know he will turn it over. He also is very lazy on defense. Only plays it when he feels like it. He is definitely not a star caliber player.

DemonHunter1105
02-25-2011, 10:27 PM
I almost feel like they are both shoot first so often because they know someone else needs to be an offensive threat besides Hibbert and Granger. So they think they are "stepping up" to help the team out. I feel that if AJ was with another team with more offensive firepower he would not shoot nearly as often. Collison I am not as sure on since I haven't seen him play as much.

Just a theory.

Sookie
02-25-2011, 10:30 PM
I almost feel like they are both shoot first so often because they know someone else needs to be an offensive threat besides Hibbert and Granger. So they think they are "stepping up" to help the team out. I feel that if AJ was with another team with more offensive firepower he would not shoot nearly as often. Collison I am not as sure on since I haven't seen him play as much.

Just a theory.

Take a loot at how many shots Price takes when the rest of the team is making shots, vs. when they aren't. Huge difference.

With Darren, he is score first. I'm not sure why that's a negative though. Particularly when Josh and Brandon are our other two starters. Personally, I think he needs to score. (And in fact, I think Price needs to score in the second unit)

Gold
02-26-2011, 12:00 AM
Am I the only one seeing Collison's improvement on defense? ......I think he's been fine lately.

imawhat
02-26-2011, 12:07 AM
I've been quiet about it all season, but I also think point guard is still our biggest weakness. I'm really not a fan of Collison's nail-driving dribbling and general lack of setting up plays. That's a bad combination with low court vision.

I think an upgrade at point would be a significant move.

BlueNGold
02-26-2011, 12:20 AM
Collison has his moments but most of those moments involve missing another shot. He should be creating for his team mates rather than looking for his own shot which is less reliable than a number of players on the team.

Anyway, these guys make Jamaal Tinsley look like a HOF'er...and no I am not exaggerating. I would take Anthony Johnson over any of them and it wouldn't be close.

kester99
02-26-2011, 12:23 AM
Collison shot .500 from the field tonight. If the rest of the team had done that, we'd have won by 20 points.

Eleazar
02-26-2011, 12:24 AM
While I do agree we need improvement from the PG position, you have to remember they are both 2nd year players. As such they are going to grow a lot, they may not be good enough right now, but two years down the line we may have the best PG duo in the league.

Eleazar
02-26-2011, 12:26 AM
Collison has his moments but most of those moments involve missing another shot. He should be creating for his team mates rather than looking for his own shot which is less reliable than a number of players on the team.

Anyway, these guys make Jamaal Tinsley look like a HOF'er...and no I am not exaggerating. I would take Anthony Johnson over any of them and it wouldn't be close.

Well to be honest if it wasn't for off the court issues, his attitude problem, and his "illnesses" and "injuries" he most likely would have been one of the best PG's in the league. He had the talent, just not the mentality.

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 12:39 AM
i disagree that the PG is in need of immediate fixing. DC and AJ are fine. not great, but fine. the front court is where the real hole is. one legit starter in roy and lots of role players after that.

plus lance could be the PG that will be the guy at the point going forward.

Isaac
02-26-2011, 12:46 AM
While I do agree we need improvement from the PG position, you have to remember they are both 2nd year players. As such they are going to grow a lot, they may not be good enough right now, but two years down the line we may have the best PG duo in the league.

Woah. Now that's optimism if I've ever seen it. Especially considering this is the age of the point guard with Rose, Westbrook, CP, DWill, Rondo, etc.

I think we should look at acquiring Mario Chalmers to be the backup next year, I don't see the potential in AJ some do. I'm not pleased with DC the way DC has ran the offense, but he is a second year player who just went through a coaching change. I'm willing to give him 2 more years as the starter to watch his improvement.

BlueNGold
02-26-2011, 12:48 AM
Collison shot .500 from the field tonight. If the rest of the team had done that, we'd have won by 20 points.

Good for him. It's the first time he's hit 50% in 7 games. He went 27, 46, 9, 27, 45 and 36 the last 6 games. I suppose his 3 assists as a PG means he focused totally on getting his own shot...obviously putting his team mates in poor positions for their own. There's a reason he had the biggest negative plus-minus on the team tonight. His presence on the floor ain't helping.

BlueNGold
02-26-2011, 12:50 AM
Lance could be the PG that will be the guy at the point going forward.

I cannot wait until he plays so the world will see he cannot play the PG position. He cannot possibly guard 50% of all starting PG's in the league...they will simply blow right by him.

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 01:08 AM
I cannot wait until he plays so the world will see he cannot play the PG position. He cannot possibly guard 50% of all starting PG's in the league...they will simply blow right by him.

you may be right. :whoknows:

if he cannot play defense, then he cannot play defense. if he can, then he can. that will be determined when he starts playing. bird seems to think he is a PG, and he can see him practice. so i am hopefull that he can play well enough.:crossfingers: :laugh:

bulldog
02-26-2011, 01:11 AM
No no no. We fired Jim O'brien, everything is perfect now.

Sookie
02-26-2011, 01:28 AM
They are second year players.

Price is going through easily the worst shooting slump I've ever seen from him. But other than that, he hasn't been an issue from the backup spot. He's the guy that runs the show for the backup unit that gets us back into games, remember?

Did he shoot a lot tonight, yea he did. But someone needed to score in that unit. I can't fault him (Or Darren) for trying to get the team back on track. And him going to the basket and getting fouled, as well as his defense, helped tie the game for us.

Which I also want to mention defense. Price was about average when he first came to the league, but with the exception of PnR defense (which isn't all on him, and he's gotten better..he was straight terrible there last season) he's actually pretty good now. Someone on the staff is helping him out there. But I'd assume so long as Collison puts in the effort, he'll improve quite a bit too. (And I think DC will. He strikes me as a guy that tries)

Collison is a second year player too. He's been thrust into the starting spot, has played a ton of minutes, and is trying to learn how to adjust to the NBA game. The kid has had games where he's looked terrible. He's also had games where he looks fantastic.

These are just knee jerk reactions. They are young, they aren't vets. They haven't learned all of the tricks of being a point, they haven't grown up yet. And they need to. And they'll do that with time.

I agree, let them both grow up a bit, if AJ stays healthy and his athleticism and speed fully recovers (and shot..), and if they both progress in their games normally, I think we could have one of the best PG tandems in the NBA.

Now, when both of them light up Steve Nash, we'll be talking about how we're so lucky because both could be starters. (Granted, Steve Nash is going to light up both of them...) The knee jerk reactions to every single game are annoying, and quite frankly bi-polar.
I'll repeat, the whole team is young. They will have off games. Those games won't be pretty. But that's part of the fun of watching them grow.

Pacersalltheway10
02-26-2011, 01:39 AM
Sorry to beat a Dead horse but here is another spot that mayo would have helped. He can play the point also and could help against much stronger taller point guards.

Sookie
02-26-2011, 01:41 AM
Sorry to beat a Dead horse but here is another spot that mayo would have helped. He can play the point also and could help against much stronger taller point guards.

lol, Mayo at the point was an extremely failed experiment.

pacer4ever
02-26-2011, 02:01 AM
lol, Mayo at the point was an extremely failed experiment.

Not really at USC he was good at point he is good at PnR. He doesnt have to play a true point or even play a lot of mintues at PG. But playing 15mpg vs another teams backup pg wouldnt be a siuation where he would fail.

ilive4sports
02-26-2011, 02:01 AM
Here I thought this thread was going to be about post defense... I didn't see tonights game, but we gave up 54 points to Jefferson and Milsap. Not going to win games doing that...

pacer4ever
02-26-2011, 02:04 AM
Here I thought this thread was going to be about post defense... I didn't see tonights game, but we gave up 54 points to Jefferson and Milsap. Not going to win games doing that...

they out worked us on the boards mostly milsap and made a lot of jumpers tyler and josh played like ****.

doctor-h
02-26-2011, 09:03 AM
If you want to talk about post defense, it might be better if our perimeter defense could actually stay in front of someone. Post defenders are always helping out which takes them out of rebounding position. That is probably why we gave up so many offensive rebounds tonight. Good perimeter defense keeps their man in front of them and even helps in the post. Collison is too weak to get through pick and rolls just like Ford was. A J is better but has trouble as well. On offense when a point guard is pounding the ball and just looking for his own shot nobody else knows what to do so they just stand and watch. Then they try to react to what the point is doing and when your point has no court vision nothing gets done. Nash will do the same dribble penetration but he will not get in trouble and he will find people.

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 09:26 AM
Here's what I said in another thread..



Our point guard play has been abyssmal. I am starting to shy away from thinking that DC is the answer.. Even though I love his game. I get that he's a second year player, but he has no playmaking ability to speak of. Do we go out and pursue Raymond Felton, Devin Harris, Andre Miller, Rodney Stuckey, or even Chauncey in the off season? I think that if the point guard play continues to be terrible than we don't have a choice. Keep Collison as a power backup and let him mold into that player we need.. Or trade him as a chip for a very good player. Dunno but either the point guard improves his play or we improve the point guard. I do think though that he will start to play better.

yoadknux
02-26-2011, 10:52 AM
Well we do have good hustle and all that. But we still need a decent scoring option next to Granger. I think we lost because:
1) Our guards didn't play well, that must have affected the low team FG%. Our made shots tonight really came after personal moves.
2) Our inside game was bad both on offense and defense. Tyler, Mc, Roy and Foster combined 28 Pts in 11-38 shooting and 23 Rebounds, while Millsap and Jefferson had 53 pts in 23-44 shooting and 27 Rebounds.
3) While Rush, Jones and George played pretty good defense, we did not get a lot of offensive production from them as well. 3-13 for all these guys, 14 points. We probably need to swap one of them if you ask me
posted on post game thread :rolleyes:

bshall
02-26-2011, 11:04 AM
Good for him. It's the first time he's hit 50% in 7 games. He went 27, 46, 9, 27, 45 and 36 the last 6 games. I suppose his 3 assists as a PG means he focused totally on getting his own shot...obviously putting his team mates in poor positions for their own. There's a reason he had the biggest negative plus-minus on the team tonight. His presence on the floor ain't helping.

No, I think he had three assists because nobody else on the team could hit a shot tonight. He put some guys in position to score last night but they just weren't coming through for him.

Lou's WaHoosiers
02-26-2011, 11:21 AM
Not really at USC he was good at point he is good at PnR. He doesnt have to play a true point or even play a lot of mintues at PG. But playing 15mpg vs another teams backup pg wouldnt be a siuation where he would fail.

The Grizzlies tried to experiment with Mayo at point guard in the 2010 Summer League and he was completely embarrassed. In his first game, he had 3 assists to 9 turnovers and let Jeff Teague light him up.

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 11:28 AM
The Grizzlies tried to experiment with Mayo at point guard in the 2010 Summer League and he was completely embarrassed. In his first game, he had 3 assists to 9 turnovers and let Jeff Teague light him up.

:iagree: this. mayo is not the answer. he was a target of opportunity to get a 3rd wing with some talent. not to be the star of the team. danny and paul were going to be the starters/stars. to use a baseball term, mayo was going to be a utility infielder. kind of like marquis daniels. a guy that could play some point in an emergency, but not a PG.

pacer4ever
02-26-2011, 11:58 AM
Here's what I said in another thread..

Rondey Stucky isnt a playmaker ethier. He isnt the answer at pg.

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 12:01 PM
Rondey Stucky isnt a playmaker ethier. He isnt the answer at pg.

:iagee: which makes him just another undersized SG with a good handle. unfortunatly for him, there are lots of those guys around.

Thoreau87
02-26-2011, 12:53 PM
Here's what I said in another thread..

Our point guard play has been abyssmal. I am starting to shy away from thinking that DC is the answer.. Even though I love his game. I get that he's a second year player, but he has no playmaking ability to speak of. Do we go out and pursue Raymond Felton, Devin Harris, Andre Miller, Rodney Stuckey, or even Chauncey in the off season? I think that if the point guard play continues to be terrible than we don't have a choice. Keep Collison as a power backup and let him mold into that player we need.. Or trade him as a chip for a very good player. Dunno but either the point guard improves his play or we improve the point guard. I do think though that he will start to play better.

IMO your jumping the gun on Collison and AJ. I'm much more concerned with Danny and Roy. Collison and AJ didn't play great but they stayed aggressive and tried to get us a win. On the other hand Roy played soft like always (relying too much on his height). I mean, get some damn rebounds Roy! Everyone says he's playing the best ball of his life under Vogel (17pts and 8rebs a game). Those numbers aren't even good for 7'2 "franchise" center.

On to Danny. If he's going to be our leader then he needs to make certain we play with a higher level of intensity. Last night was just flat out embarrassing.

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 12:56 PM
Roy Hibbert was getting double, triple, and quadruple teamed. I'm not worrying about him. In fact, he's the least of my worries.

Danny is a number 2 option. A good one. Until we get a guy better than Danny at scoring we are going to struggle to close games.

Yes, I am probably jumping the gun on DC. It's like a five game slid, but he hasn't made plays all season. That kind of worries me.

Thoreau87
02-26-2011, 01:27 PM
Roy Hibbert was getting double, triple, and quadruple teamed. I'm not worrying about him. In fact, he's the least of my worries.

Danny is a number 2 option. A good one. Until we get a guy better than Danny at scoring we are going to struggle to close games.

Yes, I am probably jumping the gun on DC. It's like a five game slid, but he hasn't made plays all season. That kind of worries me.

Roy saw so much attention b/c Tyrone understands he can't pass under pressure. Roy would waste the shot clock, get the double team, and either throw up a shot that doesn't stand a chance, turn it over, or pass the ball to a teammate who's in no position to score with no time left. Danny has the talent to be a #1 option but he lacks the intangibles to lead a team. The good news is that leadership and passing are two aquired skills that Tyrone can cultivate once he's our head coach next year :D

troyc11a
02-26-2011, 01:32 PM
Roy Hibbert was getting double, triple, and quadruple teamed. I'm not worrying about him. In fact, he's the least of my worries.

Danny is a number 2 option. A good one. Until we get a guy better than Danny at scoring we are going to struggle to close games.

Yes, I am probably jumping the gun on DC. It's like a five game slid, but he hasn't made plays all season. That kind of worries me.

I dont think you are jumping the gun at all. DC does not look like a quality starting point guard. He appears to be a solid backup at best. He cant shoot or play defense. He does one thing well and that is move in transition. Devin Harris was clearly the best pg on the floor last night and it was not even close.

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Roy saw so much attention b/c Tyrone understands he can't pass under pressure. Roy would waste the shot clock, get the double team, and either throw up a shot that doesn't stand a chance, turn it over, or pass the ball to a teammate who's in no position to score with no time left. Danny has the talent to be a #1 option but he lacks the intangibles to lead a team. The good news is that leadership and passing are two aquired skills that Tyrone can cultivate once he's our head coach next year :D


No, Roy saw so much attention because he's really good and our wings are lazy. Not because he can't pass. They double, triple teamed him and Rush and Granger wouldn't make the appropriate cuts because they don't move without the ball.

Instead they wanted the ball at the three point line to make a useless hesitation move and then pass to the point guard to force a bad shot.

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 01:36 PM
I'm still thinking that it is a slump though. He's somewhere in the middle of what we are seeing now and the 19 and 9 stuff last year. Thing is that I don't know if that is good enough..

troyc11a
02-26-2011, 01:46 PM
I'm still thinking that it is a slump though. He's somewhere in the middle of what we are seeing now and the 19 and 9 stuff last year. Thing is that I don't know if that is good enough..

I agree with that. I think he is to small and cannot shoot well enough to lead a serious playoff contender. He is an ideal backup that brings one thing to the table - quickness. He cannot get any taller, but he can improve his shot.

SMosley21
02-26-2011, 02:02 PM
There's no way that the PG spot is more of a weakness than our PF spot, especially defensively. Not only did Jefferson and Millsap absolutely destroy us last night, but Greg Monroe did the same thing the game before.

Since the start of February, other teams who have a remotely talented PF, have been giving us fits at that position.

WIN @ Cleveland - Antawn Jamison - 21 points, 7 rebounds, 3 blocks
WIN vs Portland - Lamarcus Aldridge - 14 points, 10 rebounds, 4 blocks
WIN @ New Jersey - Derrick Favors - 2 points, 3 rebounds, 2 blocks
LOSS @ Miami - Chris Bosh - 19 points, 7 rebounds
WIN vs Charlotte - Boris Diaw - 8 points, 3 rebounds
WIN vs Minnesota - Kevin Love - 22 points, 15 rebounds
WIN @ Milwaukee - Ersan Ilyasova - 10 points, 6 rebounds
LOSS vs Miami - Chris Bosh - 22 points, 8 rebounds
LOSS @ Detroit - Greg Monroe - 13 points, 4 rebounds, 2 blocks
WIN @ Washington - Andray Blatche - 21 points, 5 rebounds
WIN vs Detroit - Greg Monroe - 27 points, 12 rebounds
LOSS vs Utah - Paul Milsap - 23 points, 18 rebounds, 2 blocks

Marlin
02-26-2011, 02:07 PM
DC has his issues, that can't be negated. They were pretty much brought up in this thread, but there's one I cannot agree with: he can't shoot.

Now this is the problem, we're basing our view on the last 2-3 weeks, basically since the game after the one in Miami: if we do that, yeah he can't shoot. Let's just focus on his last 3 weeks and not consider the year and a half before that.
Remember when we were ecstatic to have a PG who could finally shoot the ball? Remember when everybody said he couldn't miss from midrange? Remember how giddy we were for his play against the Heat in Florida, controlling the tempo for the whole game?
If we remember that, there's no saying he can't flat out shoot and his height won't let him. That's not what had been happening until February..short memory I guess.

Unclebuck
02-26-2011, 03:03 PM
No, Roy saw so much attention because he's really good and our wings are lazy. Not because he can't pass. They double, triple teamed him and Rush and Granger wouldn't make the appropriate cuts because they don't move without the ball.

Instead they wanted the ball at the three point line to make a useless hesitation move and then pass to the point guard to force a bad shot.


Sounds like we mised the guy with the broken thumb

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 03:17 PM
TBH though, I think that says more about how bad Granger and Rush are without the ball than how good Mike is without the ball.

troyc11a
02-26-2011, 03:19 PM
There's no way that the PG spot is more of a weakness than our PF spot, especially defensively. Not only did Jefferson and Millsap absolutely destroy us last night, but Greg Monroe did the same thing the game before.

Since the start of February, other teams who have a remotely talented PF, have been giving us fits at that position.

WIN @ Cleveland - Antawn Jamison - 21 points, 7 rebounds, 3 blocks
WIN vs Portland - Lamarcus Aldridge - 14 points, 10 rebounds, 4 blocks
WIN @ New Jersey - Derrick Favors - 2 points, 3 rebounds, 2 blocks
LOSS @ Miami - Chris Bosh - 19 points, 7 rebounds
WIN vs Charlotte - Boris Diaw - 8 points, 3 rebounds
WIN vs Minnesota - Kevin Love - 22 points, 15 rebounds
WIN @ Milwaukee - Ersan Ilyasova - 10 points, 6 rebounds
LOSS vs Miami - Chris Bosh - 22 points, 8 rebounds
LOSS @ Detroit - Greg Monroe - 13 points, 4 rebounds, 2 blocks
WIN @ Washington - Andray Blatche - 21 points, 5 rebounds
WIN vs Detroit - Greg Monroe - 27 points, 12 rebounds
LOSS vs Utah - Paul Milsap - 23 points, 18 rebounds, 2 blocks

There is not a position on this team that doesnt either need the current player to play more up to their potential or to be upgraded altogether! Our PF position is ok for what is asked of them. The PF/PG positions will not be asked to carry this team. We need better defense and offense from both really.

Eleazar
02-26-2011, 06:17 PM
There's no way that the PG spot is more of a weakness than our PF spot, especially defensively. Not only did Jefferson and Millsap absolutely destroy us last night, but Greg Monroe did the same thing the game before.

Since the start of February, other teams who have a remotely talented PF, have been giving us fits at that position.

WIN @ Cleveland - Antawn Jamison - 21 points, 7 rebounds, 3 blocks
WIN vs Portland - Lamarcus Aldridge - 14 points, 10 rebounds, 4 blocks
WIN @ New Jersey - Derrick Favors - 2 points, 3 rebounds, 2 blocks
LOSS @ Miami - Chris Bosh - 19 points, 7 rebounds
WIN vs Charlotte - Boris Diaw - 8 points, 3 rebounds
WIN vs Minnesota - Kevin Love - 22 points, 15 rebounds
WIN @ Milwaukee - Ersan Ilyasova - 10 points, 6 rebounds
LOSS vs Miami - Chris Bosh - 22 points, 8 rebounds
LOSS @ Detroit - Greg Monroe - 13 points, 4 rebounds, 2 blocks
WIN @ Washington - Andray Blatche - 21 points, 5 rebounds
WIN vs Detroit - Greg Monroe - 27 points, 12 rebounds
LOSS vs Utah - Paul Milsap - 23 points, 18 rebounds, 2 blocks

While our players at PF might not be as good as our PG's, our PG's tend to have a much higher impact on the game than our PF's. Maybe that is just because our PF's are more consistent, but it is typically more noticeable when the PG's play bad than it is when Josh and Tyler play bad.

troyc11a
02-26-2011, 07:16 PM
While our players at PF might not be as good as our PG's, our PG's tend to have a much higher impact on the game than our PF's. Maybe that is just because our PF's are more consistent, but it is typically more noticeable when the PG's play bad than it is when Josh and Tyler play bad.

I think it is safe to say the the point guard's play is more noticeable much like the QB of a football team. We need better play out of both. I just do not see us getting what is needed from Collison because he is way to small. He is better than what we have had the last few years, but no way is he good enough to lead a contender. Our PF's are good enough if there is better play around them. You cant hide a point guard!