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vnzla81
02-25-2011, 10:24 PM
Yep we need an starting Power Forward and a guy that can create his own shot, our bigs D sucked a$$ tonight.

Go Pacers :mad:

McKeyFan
02-25-2011, 10:28 PM
Al Jefferson destroyed us down the stretch.

Trophy
02-25-2011, 10:29 PM
This team has to come out and play better than this.

These are the teams we need to beat if we want to make the playoffs and position ourselves without being on the border of getting in.

There's no time to slack off and come out and play differently every game.

Slow down the offense and take good shots and don't let big men like Al Jefferson have a shooting fest.

DC was taking really bad shots tonight and only had 3 assists.

He finished with 16 points after scoring more towards the end, but we need him playing better than this.

Embarrassing performance in front of a good home crowd.

ballism
02-25-2011, 10:30 PM
Ewing effect in full force.

gummy
02-25-2011, 10:31 PM
The offense was bad in large part because our point guards were bad (did they get more than an assist or two a piece tonight? Both of them seemed to have tunnel vision) but we hung close for much of the game - our perimeter defense was pretty good. Interior defense was terri-bad.

I'm upset but not livid. I'm interested to see how we react in the next game.

Kid Minneapolis
02-25-2011, 10:31 PM
We couldn't hit the broad side of a barn tonight, which makes jefferson look that much better. He had a great game, but we coulda won it had we hit some f'n shots. 34%...

Mr_Smith
02-25-2011, 10:31 PM
Such a frustrating game to watch...that's the growing pains of this team.

diamonddave00
02-25-2011, 10:33 PM
Having only 10 assists as a team showed the lack of movement on this team. Knock Dunleavy all you want but we are missing his movement on offense . Rush and George both pretty much stood out by the 3 point line and the offense was stand around and take a contested jumper.

croz24
02-25-2011, 10:34 PM
man look at all these negative comments! where's the positive attitude guys!?

Kid Minneapolis
02-25-2011, 10:34 PM
Having only 10 assists as a team showed the lack of movement on this team...

... it's also reflective of not hitting shots.

diamonddave00
02-25-2011, 10:35 PM
One thing I liked about the 4th quarter Collison's shooting touch came back a little hitting all 4 of his field goal attemps.

brewpopps
02-25-2011, 10:36 PM
One would think that when the hometown crowd gives a standing o to the hometown boy wonder (Gordon) the hometeam would want to just give it their all to show that hometown crowd they aren't missing Heyward.
Very disappointing that there was no killer instinct here once Heyward made his appearance.

LG33
02-25-2011, 10:37 PM
If you look at the rebounding numbers, they really weren't that bad. Yeah, we got out-boarded by 10, but on the offensive glass we actually got one more than the Jazz did. Utah had 37 defensive rebounds to our 26 - because our offense was not setting guys up for good shots. We were 35% from the field and we only scored 84 points - more than 16 less than ANY other game during the Vogel era. I missed a large part of the first quarter, so I can't explain our early troubles, but from what I saw we never really controlled the tempo of this game, and that's something the point guard and coach are responsible for.

Sookie
02-25-2011, 10:39 PM
I'm gonna repeat what I said in the game thread.

Chill the **** out.

Really, it's not the end of the world, the guys didn't play well. They're young, it's going to happen.

But enough of "DC's garbage" ...really, because I think he's a good little point guard that's struggling right now. Like all young point guards do. I also think that he'll get him self together.

OMG we need a starting PF. Josh works well with Hibbert. He needs to box out and defend better, WHICH HE's capable of.

Roy was on and off, he needs to pass out of a double (tripple..) team though. Once again, something he can improve on.

Hans will have games where he shoots poorly. It happens. It happens to all players. Chris Bosh went 1-18 the other night. He does need to actually run PnPs, that was part of the problem tonight. He can't keep leaving it early so he gets his midrange shot.

OMG Price didn't have an assist..you all realize he made as many shots as the rest of the goons. 3. That's right, the rest of the goon squad made 3 shots. How exactly does anyone expect him to get an assist out of that? However, it would be nice if he could make his shots..(And same thing with DC. We shot about 30% tonight, you can't get assists if no one makes any shots.)

Speaking of those two, I've seen a couple of "we need a guy who can get their own shot and provide offense." What exactly do you think our two point guards were trying to do? Until the fourth quarter for Collison, it wasn't working. But if anyone on the team is going to go get their own shots and score, particularly with George struggling, it's gonna have to be DC and AJ. Remember, they are capable of dribbling the ball into the paint without turning it over....*stares at Danny*

But essentially, the team was struggling to score, and our young PGs took it in their hands to try and score. I don't like the way the offense looks when they do that. But they were trying to step up. Both of them. If they had made their shots, we'd be praising them right now.

And speaking of the goon squad, they played with a lot of intensity, they just couldn't make a shot. It happens. OMG, PG looked like a rookie. We should shoot him for it.

They need to work on a few things. Primarily rebounding and interior defense. The offense of the starting unit also needs to pick up. My guess is it's probably a reaction to learning to play with Brandon. But the team will be okay. They can beat Phoenix. They just need to get themselves together.

And Danny, he struggled. I suspect he was trying to do too much because the young guys were struggling.

Essentially..Chill the **** out. (Again) They are young. Games like this are guaranteed to happen. They'll regroup.

D-BONE
02-25-2011, 10:41 PM
When is DC ever going to stabilize from mid to long range? If he could just hit 40-some % from 15-18 it would be dangerous.

Granger has a bad game, too. And Al Jefferson' dominance was painfully obvious.

I want to see how handle this much tougher stretch. We're going to find out what Vogel and co. are made of for better or worse.

Mr_Smith
02-25-2011, 10:44 PM
Charlotte won tonight....pacers are only a 1/2 game up now. This game tonight was one of those games that has to be won.

Shade
02-25-2011, 10:46 PM
We need quality starters at the 4 and 2. That's been the case for a while now, but it was really exposed tonight.

PacersPride
02-25-2011, 10:48 PM
listen guys mike dunleavy is not walking through that door onto the court.. other players are going to have to step up!

Gamble1
02-25-2011, 10:48 PM
we need a starting pf.

Unclebuck
02-25-2011, 10:49 PM
OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG.

We lost.


LOL


Frank was not happy in the post game press conference.


Really though the Jazz just manhandled us in the paint.

Unclebuck
02-25-2011, 10:49 PM
We need quality starters at the 4 and 2. That's been the case for a while now, but it was really exposed tonight.

what about Josh?

Our offense is not as good without Mike. His IQ just helps the other players play better

diamonddave00
02-25-2011, 10:52 PM
I was very disappointed the Mayo trade failed and nothing I saw tonight changed that view .

TheDon
02-25-2011, 10:54 PM
Man sometimes reading these threads after a loss is getting annoying to be nice about it. It really seems like some people get a bigger kick out of seeing us lose just so they can further their own ignorant agenda. Think I'm done reading for the night gonna try to cheer myself up a bit :)

beast23
02-25-2011, 10:55 PM
Roy was on and off, he needs to pass out of a double (tripple..) team though. Once again, something he can improve on.

Admittedly, I did not watch a lot of the game tonight. I only saw 5 or 6 two or three minute stretches.

But, I will say I noticed this point... and I've seen it happening a lot with Roy. He is a good passer; he absolutely must do better at choosing his opportunities to hang on to the ball and get the shot.

He should especially know that if it's another big that is doubling him, then he can probably find Josh approaching the rim from the weakside and that Tyler will probably be somewhere on the weakside within 10 feet of the basket. He's got to quickly find them out of the double team and get the ball to them. Josh will take advantage of the opportunity by getting the dunk and/or going to the line. And Tyler will hit the short jumper. It really isn't that difficult to find them; Roy just has to be willing to give it up.

I'm not saying it is a catastrophic problem, but it is one that will take some re-programming. Once that's done and Roy makes the right decision most of the time, his field goal percentage should improve quite a bit... and the number of empty possessions for the team should decrease nicely.

Gamble1
02-25-2011, 10:55 PM
OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG.

We lost.


LOL


Frank was not happy in the post game press conference.


Really though the Jazz just manhandled us in the paint.
Its just too bad we couldn't have traded for one of those pf's/c.

Unclebuck
02-25-2011, 10:55 PM
Having only 10 assists as a team showed the lack of movement on this team. Knock Dunleavy all you want but we are missing his movement on offense . Rush and George both pretty much stood out by the 3 point line and the offense was stand around and take a contested jumper.

I predict that Mike will get better and better in the minds of most forum members.

I also predict that the new whipping boy will be Collison

Sookie
02-25-2011, 10:55 PM
what about Josh?

Our offense is not as good without Mike. His IQ just helps the other players play better

Not so fast.

The starters have played two games without Mike, they've got to adjust to Brandon, and Brandon has to get comfortable.

I think we miss Mike's player movement more than anything, but it'll work itself out.

We, however, did lose a solid vet that helps the offense go and it will take some time to adjust. However, I think it will with Brandon. And I the defense should improve.

Unclebuck
02-25-2011, 10:57 PM
Man sometimes reading these threads after a loss is getting annoying to be nice about it. It really seems like some people get a bigger kick out of seeing us lose just so they can further their own ignorant agenda. Think I'm done reading for the night gonna try to cheer myself up a bit :)

Getting annoying?

yoadknux
02-25-2011, 10:58 PM
Well we do have good hustle and all that. But we still need a decent scoring option next to Granger. I think we lost because:
1) Our guards didn't play well, that must have affected the low team FG%. Our made shots tonight really came after personal moves.
2) Our inside game was bad both on offense and defense. Tyler, Mc, Roy and Foster combined 28 Pts in 11-38 shooting and 23 Rebounds, while Millsap and Jefferson had 53 pts in 23-44 shooting and 27 Rebounds.
3) While Rush, Jones and George played pretty good defense, we did not get a lot of offensive production from them as well. 3-13 for all these guys, 14 points. We probably need to swap one of them if you ask me

Gamble1
02-25-2011, 11:01 PM
I predict that Mike will get better and better in the minds of most forum members.

I also predict that the new whipping boy will be Collison
A second year player should always be the new whipping boy. ;)

MIke is gone after this season so I could care less whether he did enough as a Pacer.

Unclebuck
02-25-2011, 11:01 PM
Not so fast.

The starters have played two games without Mike, they've got to adjust to Brandon, and Brandon has to get comfortable.

I think we miss Mike's player movement more than anything, but it'll work itself out.

We, however, did lose a solid vet that helps the offense go and it will take some time to adjust. However, I think it will with Brandon. And I the defense should improve.

Mike's impact on our offense is so much better than his scoring might indicate. Rush's impact on our offense is so much less than his scoring might indicate.

vnzla81
02-25-2011, 11:03 PM
listen guys mike dunleavy is not walking through the door onto that court.. other players are going to have to step up!

:laugh: post of the year?

PacersPride
02-25-2011, 11:03 PM
I was very disappointed the Mayo trade failed and nothing I saw tonight changed that view .

unfortunately i believe it had an effect on the team. it really sucks for a player like McBob who is well liked here and plays his guts out for this franchise.

i really believe, like many we would have tried to bring him back.. but its neither here nor there and its time to move on.

i really hope the pacers get into the postseason but expectations are very realistic, and if they do not get in its not the end of the world, we getter a better draft pick Bird can use to acquire a player or two.

no doubt the team has lost some momentum, but if Bird and Co. want Mayo, West, or Landry they will likely all be available this offseason, in addition to other players like AI.

like other posters mentioned below, were a young team and can expect debuts like the one tonight but the future is still very bright for this franchise with the significant cap room and young core too build around.

patience is a virtue.

BlueNGold
02-25-2011, 11:04 PM
I predict that Mike will get better and better in the minds of most forum members.

I also predict that the new whipping boy will be Collison

Your prediction is probably correct because his game has been awful. Probably some of the worst PG decision-making I have seen on this team. I would prefer Earl Watson over this. Ok, he's young so he gets a pass this season. But he has a very long way to go.

As for Utah, we all need to face the fact they have better players. They probably have 3 players as good as Danny Granger. They are more talented than their record and tonight they played solid. The fact we competed is a good sign.

Sookie
02-25-2011, 11:09 PM
Mike's impact on our offense is so much better than his scoring might indicate. Rush's impact on our offense is so much less than his scoring might indicate.

Disagree somewhat.

Mike was underrated by a lot of people here. I keep talking about the player movement issue.

Four players move well without the ball, DC, AJ, Josh, and Dun. Two of those four are point guards, and have the ball the majority of the time. And even then, DC doesn't understand angles as well as the other three, and AJ and Josh don't cut as well as the other two.

It is extremely important to have player movement, or the offense becomes stagnant. It's even more important for wings to do it, because that opens things up for the inside, as well as getting themselves a shot.

Dun was the only wing that did that consistently, and that's where it'll hurt the most.

Shooting? I think Rush is a better shooter. Play maker? Brandon knows how to pass the ball into the post well. And we've also got Josh on the floor whose an excellent play maker, and DC's decent himself. So we aren't going to be hurt there.

But player movement, that's a killer. And it's something Vogel will have to adjust a bit. (And I've actually noticed Rush moving without the ball more so this season than all of last season)

However, I do think we'll more than makeup on the defensive end, what we lose on the offensive end. Once the new starting unit develops some chemistry. So essentially, yes we lose something significant. But Brandon isn't as invisible as he seems on the court. He takes good shots, and he passes well into the post.

PacersPride
02-25-2011, 11:09 PM
I predict that Mike will get better and better in the minds of most forum members.

I also predict that the new whipping boy will be Collison

ya i dont get why there always has to be a "whipping boy" but if anyone should become that player its Rush..

its obvious this franchise is ready to go another direction. I liked Rush's D tonight but he cannot create, glad to see him knock down some shots though.

im ready to officially declare that Rush is the player we think he is. good defender who can knock down the outside shot. not a quality starting SG but a good role player off the bench at both the SG/SF position.

Pretty dissapointed with Grangers game tonight.. but will leave that topic for another day.

graphic-er
02-25-2011, 11:11 PM
Well tonight Josh McRoberts show us exactly what he is. A highlight dunker who can't defend, and can't box out. He has a real problem boxing out.

How about PG getting posterized by my boy. Made my night, even in a loss. bout to watch it on the replay.

BlueNGold
02-25-2011, 11:12 PM
Mike's impact on our offense is so much better than his scoring might indicate. Rush's impact on our offense is so much less than his scoring might indicate.

I agree Mike is a better player for the offense, but you could turn that on its head and replace offense with defense. If Mike was really that much better than Brandon, we'd have our answer at SG.

Fact is, he's just a different kind of sub .500 player. Some games (75%)you want Brandon in there. Against bad teams (25%) you want Mike because he can fill it up against a porous defense. But he's nearly useless against the likes of DWade.

Unclebuck
02-25-2011, 11:42 PM
What is the pacers record when the crowd is over 16,000. I know the won the home opener against the sixers, but have they won any other game. Lost to the heat, Bulls, Lakers, Jazz, Thunder - any others. makes sense though because the better teams will bring larger crowds, but still

xIndyFan
02-25-2011, 11:49 PM
thought the glaring hole at the 4 was painfully obvious. not jefferson so much, he just made a lot of shots. but milsap just manhandled pacer bigs tonight. physically dominated them.

utah is a team with two good offensive bigs. pacers have problems with that kind of team. usually the pacers can 'hid' tyler/josh defensively on a weaker offensive player. but utah has two guys that can score in the post and the lack of defensive ability in the pacer 4's was telling. wish i knew if this was just an off game for both, or they just lack the size and strength to compete or were just out of position all night. the former or the latter is easily fixable. the lack of size and strength is not fixable. idk, :shrug:

xIndyFan
02-25-2011, 11:52 PM
I agree Mike is a better player for the offense, but you could turn that on its head and replace offense with defense. If Mike was really that much better than Brandon, we'd have our answer at SG.

Fact is, he's just a different kind of sub .500 player. Some games (75%)you want Brandon in there. Against bad teams (25%) you want Mike because he can fill it up against a porous defense. But he's nearly useless against the likes of DWade.

think your percentages are backwards. pretty sure there are not 75% of the teams with SG like dwade. the 25% brandon start and 75% mike start seems more reasonable.

Bball
02-25-2011, 11:54 PM
I think the team just appeared flat an couldn't get over a mental hump... and I wonder how much of that was because of the leaked trade that didn't happen that suddenly has some players rethinking their position and security on the team?

I mean Vogel has done a nice job of developing some chemistry and swagger and singing the praises of the team's depth and all of a sudden word leaks out of a trade that sputtered out of the gate that would've reshuffled a lot of the identity he's built with the team.

Unclebuck
02-25-2011, 11:56 PM
I think the team just appeared flat an couldn't get over a mental hump... and I wonder how much of that was because of the leaked trade that didn't happen that suddenly has some players rethinking their position and security on the team?

I mean Vogel has done a nice job of developing some chemistry and swagger and singing the praises of the team's depth and all of a sudden word leaks out of a trade that sputtered out of the gate that would've reshuffled a lot of the identity he's built with the team.

whywould the players think that though the trade deadline has passed, the players aren't going anywhere now

pacer4ever
02-25-2011, 11:58 PM
I think the team just appeared flat an couldn't get over a mental hump... and I wonder how much of that was because of the leaked trade that didn't happen that suddenly has some players rethinking their position and security on the team?I mean Vogel has done a nice job of developing some chemistry and swagger and singing the praises of the team's depth and all of a sudden word leaks out of a trade that sputtered out of the gate that would've reshuffled a lot of the identity he's built with the team.


:bs:

they are big boys and pro basketball players it is part of the game. If they are that weak mined I dont think we should keep them around too much longer.We just got out worked in every part of the game.

10 assits is horrible and our blocking out sucked

BlueNGold
02-26-2011, 12:01 AM
thought the glaring hole at the 4 was painfully obvious. not jefferson so much, he just made a lot of shots. but milsap just manhandled pacer bigs tonight. physically dominated them.

utah is a team with two good offensive bigs. pacers have problems with that kind of team. usually the pacers can 'hid' tyler/josh defensively on a weaker offensive player. but utah has two guys that can score in the post and the lack of defensive ability in the pacer 4's was telling. wish i knew if this was just an off game for both, or they just lack the size and strength to compete or were just out of position all night. the former or the latter is easily fixable. the lack of size and strength is not fixable. idk, :shrug:

Millsap has always been a strong interior PF...one of the best in the league. The only player on the team capable of defending those two is Jeff Foster who had a positive plus-minus. Hibbert is hardly mobile enough to contend with Jefferson and if Jefferson. Millsap is a beast and McBob has no business attempting to stop him. Hans is physically capable but the question is whether he's a good enough defender. Millsap has good technique and a great nose for the ball. Better than anyone on the Pacers except Foster who is too old to compete on the glass as well. All things considered, I think we have the typical inconsistent young player performances and/or a talent deficit.

Peck
02-26-2011, 12:06 AM
I was very disappointed the Mayo trade failed and nothing I saw tonight changed that view .

I was glad the trade fell through and saw nothing tonight that changed my mind. While none of our bigs did much I would say that if Tyler were our only power forward tonight (beyond Posey) I probably would have wanted to jump off the fieldhouse roof (not that I didn't want to during the game anyway). Josh was the only 4 who did anything and even he didn't do much.

Yes, Rush made me want to vomit (why are we starting him again?) but to me that is cured by either D. Jones or Paul George starting.

Bball
02-26-2011, 12:07 AM
Sometimes some of you guys have me wondering if you think we have robots playing basketball instead of human beings.

Peck
02-26-2011, 12:09 AM
I think the team just appeared flat an couldn't get over a mental hump... and I wonder how much of that was because of the leaked trade that didn't happen that suddenly has some players rethinking their position and security on the team?

I mean Vogel has done a nice job of developing some chemistry and swagger and singing the praises of the team's depth and all of a sudden word leaks out of a trade that sputtered out of the gate that would've reshuffled a lot of the identity he's built with the team.

I definately think the very first quarter of the game the entire team appeared flat.

Mental or not who knows but they certainly were flat.

BlueNGold
02-26-2011, 12:09 AM
think your percentages are backwards. pretty sure there are not 75% of the teams with SG like dwade. the 25% brandon start and 75% mike start seems more reasonable.

I've been following this a bit and it's not just DWade players lighting up Mike. I vividly remember Corey Brewer lighting Mike on fire at the beginning of the game against the TWolves a couple weeks ago. As a result, Mike's minutes were limited and Dahntay Jones won the game.

The point is, teams have good success when they attack Dunleavy. It's a serious weakness against many teams and one reason Dunleavy has never sniffed the playoffs in his career.

Bball
02-26-2011, 12:11 AM
whywould the players think that though the trade deadline has passed, the players aren't going anywhere now

I dunno... Maybe they thought they were building something here with the recent success and positive vibe that's been around the team.

I don't mean anyone will be in a funk over it the rest of their lives... but 24 hours later I can accept it as something they'll need to get beyond

Bball
02-26-2011, 12:15 AM
whywould the players think that though the trade deadline has passed, the players aren't going anywhere now

I'd think Josh especially is a player that was probably thinking he was going to be a Pacer for some time... and now he's probably wondering if he'll even be offered a contract for next season here.

pacer4ever
02-26-2011, 12:16 AM
Quit this:cry::cry::cry:


I think he should get over it and block out and rebound and and play defense if he wants to be a long time pacer and get tuffer
I'd think Josh especially is a player that was probably thinking he was going to be a Pacer for some time... and now he's probably wondering if he'll even be offered a contract for next season here.

MagicRat
02-26-2011, 12:16 AM
I'd think Josh especially is a player that was probably thinking he was going to be a Pacer for some time... and now he's probably wondering if he'll even be offered a contract for next season here.

In other words, you're thinking he now thinks he's irrelevant?

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 12:20 AM
Millsap has always been a strong interior PF...one of the best in the league. The only player on the team capable of defending those two is Jeff Foster who had a positive plus-minus. Hibbert is hardly mobile enough to contend with Jefferson and if Jefferson. Millsap is a beast and McBob has no business attempting to stop him. Hans is physically capable but the question is whether he's a good enough defender. Millsap has good technique and a great nose for the ball. Better than anyone on the Pacers except Foster who is too old to compete on the glass as well. All things considered, I think we have the typical inconsistent young player performances and/or a talent deficit.

like i said earlier, not as concerned about jefferson, it looked like he just made shots. he took a bunch of 20 ft jump shots. some times those go in, some times they don't. stuff happens. :shrug:

did look like vogel agreed with you about jeff. vogel made tried jeff and roy together for a short time. didn't seem to work very well, but that could have just been the flow of the game at the time.

it makes a difference [at the 4] whether the problem is typical inconsistent young player stuff or talent deficit. young player problems cure themselves as players get more experience. talent deficits don't. talent deficits have to be fixed by getting better players.

jeffg-body
02-26-2011, 12:27 AM
Two things stuck out to me in this game. Our youth and lack of experience gave the game to them pretty much with the turnovers and bad shots. The second thing was that we have difficullty when it comes to guarding a team with two legitimate big men. I know we really played some bad ball tonight but we still had our chances. I think the young guys are learning at a pretty good pace and I think we know that we need a second big with legit big man size to play a team like this with "twin towers". Write it up as a learning experience and go on to the next game.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2011, 12:49 AM
Charlotte won tonight....pacers are only a 1/2 game up now. This game tonight was one of those games that has to be won.


Yeah, Jack played SF for the departing Wallace and scored 30 while that "nothing Henderson" started at SG scoring 21 points.

luis3ep
02-26-2011, 12:51 AM
is it me, or is Danny slowly going away from being the "Man" he's not really taking command of the offense like he used to anymore, mainly because he doesn't HAVE to.. but he's our best offensive player and he's not going for it.

lavell12
02-26-2011, 12:53 AM
just a bad all around game. The truth is that Josh and Tyler are solid but both are backups not starters. I'm worried about Tyler b/c he has some big games but his field goal percentage is awful.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2011, 12:53 AM
OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG.

We lost.


LOL


Frank was not happy in the post game press conference.


Really though the Jazz just manhandled us in the paint.


Which they did.

I've been pretty cool towards talk of getting Milsap, BUT tonight he had my attention with his play! AND Al Jefferson is a player I've always liked since he was with Boston, but not his contract.

pizza guy
02-26-2011, 02:22 AM
like i said earlier, not as concerned about jefferson, it looked like he just made shots. he took a bunch of 20 ft jump shots. some times those go in, some times they don't. stuff happens. :shrug:

did look like vogel agreed with you about jeff. vogel made tried jeff and roy together for a short time. didn't seem to work very well, but that could have just been the flow of the game at the time.

it makes a difference [at the 4] whether the problem is typical inconsistent young player stuff or talent deficit. young player problems cure themselves as players get more experience. talent deficits don't. talent deficits have to be fixed by getting better players.

What game were you watching? As I was watching, I told my buddy that Utah must not have had a shot longer than 10 feet the whole game. Check the shot chart, and it's almost accurate. They scored 95 on us without hitting a single 3. AlJeff and Milsap owned the paint tonight, despite Roy getting off to a decent start. There was just no answer for the strength of those two.

I wonder, with Favors on their roster now, if one of Jefferson, Milsap, or Favors might be traded in the offseason...

PacersHomer
02-26-2011, 03:04 AM
It was awesome seeing Hayward back in Indy again. I wish we played the Jazz more than once at home so I could see him play again...

Lord Helmet
02-26-2011, 03:29 AM
The game sucked, we had a good crowd and we blew it. We have to win these games.

Roy getting blocked 6 times is pretty bad. Gordon Hayward dunking on the Pacers' All-Star Paul George? That made me want to vomit.

I came into the game thinking we would win, and that's a new feeling. I expect a win Sunday.

wintermute
02-26-2011, 04:38 AM
I really really want to get Paul Millsap.

Heisenberg
02-26-2011, 06:59 AM
I'm really starting to wonder how we're going to fix our interior defense. The only player on the team that seems capable of stopping a score when the ball gets under the FT line is Jeff and he's 58 years old.

I love Roy, but man, unless he gets a favorable matchup he's just far too easy to take out of his game. He's never going to be a graceful swan but he's in desperate need of a full time big man coach to teach him how to use his feet. McHale's blathering about nothing on TNT, bring him in Larry. You're 9 feet tall Roy, there is basically no reason for you to EVER leave your feet guarding the ball on the defensive end.

Our defense as whole under Vogel is laughably bad. He Who Shall Not Be Named apparently did a helluva job there.

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 08:58 AM
Man, you gotta get angry after this game...We could have traded a back-up for O.J. Mayo...
there is no way this was a bad trade for us....
McRoberts is at best a back-up, maybe even a 6th man( I don't even believe that)..O.J. could be a star...
I said it at the beginning of the season...McRoberts is not at all a good defender and a bad rebounder...I don't know why everyone is so high on him...

McKeyFan
02-26-2011, 09:52 AM
Mayo wouldn't have helped in this game, which was lost by terrible interior defense. Roy was terrible.

IIRC, Jeff was no in the last five minutes. That could have made a difference, although I don't fault Vogel for letting Roy try to play through it. He needs a good whipping behind doors today, however, during film session.

I suppose Foster could have replaced Josh the last five minutes. That may have helped.

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 10:06 AM
I didn't get to watch the past two minutes of the game because I went to go watch a movie with my friends, but they were frightened when they figured out how angry I was about this game.. I don't get mad during games like that (Guys, in post game threads I'm joking most of the time), but this game I couldn't help it. It was terrible.

It has become increasingly evident over the past five games or so that our post defense, shot creating, and point guard play are flat out bad. The point guard play can get better as it is probably just a streak thing, but the other ones won't without an upgrade.

Josh McRoberts is a very streaky player when it comes to rebounding and defense, if that makes sense. He'll have a streak of games where he gets a lot of tough rebounds and blocks shots while disturbing the flow of the opposing team's offense.. A couple of games later he will let his man get offensive boards over him repeatedly, and his post defense disappears. The most annoying thing, by far, is that he lets his man post up on him 2 feet from the basket time and time again. His post defense has been bad, but it is hard to blame that too much on him because he is not a good starter.. If he's a guy who plays 15-20 minutes a night his weaknesses will be masked and he can be a help defender instead of a post defender.

Roy Hibbert isn't an anchor anymore. He was much, much better earlier in the season but that has to do with legs. He had much more energy. His rebounding and quickness has taken a toll from the long season. I think that he is what the doctor ordered for the center position, but we need a banger in there to help him out. I won't knock his offense at all because he was getting triple and quadruple teamed and Brandon Rush and Danny Granger couldn't even move without the ball with no one guarding them.

We need a guy that can create his own shot with ease. Don't know if that guy is OJ Mayo or not, but apparently Bird and Morway think that OJ is that guy. What is obvious though, is that Brandon Rush and Mike Dunleavy are not. Our defense hasn't gotten better with Rush in the lineup because he stays glued to his man and doesn't help out on double teams and he doesn't ever gamble. On offense he stands in the corner or he even gets in guy's way. He had five points and he attempted 5 shots, a typical Brandon Rush game. I loved the Brandon Rush that was here earlier in the season, but he is back to being boring old Rush. Don't give me that "Rush isn't a scorer I don't know what you expect of him" stuff. We need another scorer in the lineup and it seems like he is a downgrade from Mike so far.

I don't think if we start Paul that it will make a huge difference either because at this point he is not a game-changer. We need a Jamal Crawford/OJ Mayo that can score in a flurry and save our offense.

Our point guard play has been abyssmal. I am starting to shy away from thinking that DC is the answer.. Even though I love his game. I get that he's a second year player, but he has no playmaking ability to speak of. Do we go out and pursue Raymond Felton, Devin Harris, Andre Miller, Rodney Stuckey, or even Chauncey in the off season? I think that if the point guard play continues to be terrible than we don't have a choice. Keep Collison as a power backup and let him mold into that player we need.. Or trade him as a chip for a very good player. Dunno but either the point guard improves his play or we improve the point guard. I do think though that he will start to play better.

Last but not least, I am getting really impatient with Vogel when it comes to Lance. There is no way at all that he could have been worse than Dahntay Jones, AJ Price, Brandon Rush, or Darren Collison last night. Get him in the game like you promised to us and Bird.

PS- We need some scoring from the PF spot.

In a nutshell here is what we need:

1.) Interior defense
2.) Shot creating
3.) Better PG play
4.) Lance Stephenson
5.) PF scoring

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 10:08 AM
Our bigs are getting pushed around every game...
It's frustrating, Roy and Josh need to put up some muscle or we will get dominated every time under the basket...
Hansbrough is to small and btw: He wasn't our worst big yesterday. He shot badly, but there were some loose balls he saved with his hustle..I can't believe people are saying he's worthless when he's not scoring..
sorry for my english...

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 10:16 AM
Also, I don't like to admit it at all...but...I'am almost at the point where i feel more comfortable with AJ at the point instead of DC..

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 10:17 AM
Yeah I agree. And that's depressing because AJ routinely goes 2/10 from the field.

owl
02-26-2011, 10:19 AM
Observations about playing Utah

Does anyone remember how Utah pummeled the Pacers in Utah?
Does anyone think Deven Harris is a better point guard than he was in New Jersey?
Does anyone think we need a stronger defender behind Roy? At least we have Jeff
Does anyone think the two guard is still a weakness?

D-BONE
02-26-2011, 10:28 AM
Josh McRoberts is a very streaky player when it comes to rebounding and defense, if that makes sense. He'll have a streak of games where he gets a lot of tough rebounds and blocks shots while disturbing the flow of the opposing team's offense.. A couple of games later he will let his man get offensive boards over him repeatedly, and his post defense disappears. The most annoying thing, by far, is that he lets his man post up on him 2 feet from the basket time and time again. His post defense has been bad, but it is hard to blame that too much on him because he is not a good starter.. If he's a guy who plays 15-20 minutes a night his weaknesses will be masked and he can be a help defender instead of a post defender.

Roy Hibbert isn't an anchor anymore. He was much, much better earlier in the season but that has to do with legs. He had much more energy. His rebounding and quickness has taken a toll from the long season. I think that he is what the doctor ordered for the center position, but we need a banger in there to help him out. I won't knock his offense at all because he was getting triple and quadruple teamed and Brandon Rush and Danny Granger couldn't even move without the ball with no one guarding them.



Mostly agree with you main points. But these two examples not so sure. McBob is capable of some off-the-ball blocks and steal, but I don't think he's yet shown any penchant for being a true flow-altering defender for his position. I like what he's done over his tenure here, but the guys is more of a finesse PF. In my eyes, his skills set is not power rebounder/post defender.

Roy is not much different. We know this. You allude to it in asserting he needs a banger to pair with. We've know that's Roy's one deficiency that his body/skills set will probably prevent him from excelling at.

Tyler, on the other hand, has the aggression and strength. He does not have the length. Although he's seemed capable of overcoming it of late, last night was a reminder that some night or against some matchups he'll have trouble sticking it in around the hoop in traffic.

So basically, despite the pleasant run of success under Vogel, we still are who we thought we were. A very finesse-oriented interior team seeking major improvements in that area. We have a Smits-like piece in a Roy in terms of power - inside potential and two PFs who play hard and you can't complain about, but who really are both suited to effective back ups. If only we could create a hybrid of both PF's strengths/body types, we might have a legitimate starter.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2011, 10:37 AM
Man, you gotta get angry after this game...We could have traded a back-up for O.J. Mayo...
there is no way this was a bad trade for us....
McRoberts is at best a back-up, maybe even a 6th man( I don't even believe that)..O.J. could be a star...
I said it at the beginning of the season...McRoberts is not at all a good defender and a bad rebounder...I don't know why everyone is so high on him...


B/c they love his passing, handles, and highlite reel dunks.

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 10:52 AM
B/c they love his passing, handles, and highlite reel dunks.

yeah...that's pretty cool and all...but do we need that from our PF?
I get that he's got a unique skill set, but what is good for?

He's good for 1 or 2 highlights a game(be it a pass or a dunk), but if you are a starting PF, and you get dominated on the boards like that....I don't care if you can pass like Steve Nash...
Forget the Jumpshot, work on the basics of beeing a PF...learn to box out and rebound and defend...then we can talk about his potential...

Those skills are a bonus for a PF, but unless he can do the basic stuff, he shouldn't be starting.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2011, 11:26 AM
I have said all season the Pacers need a good quality starting PF, and last night's game made it very evident that McBob and/or Hans are NOT the answer to the starting PF position. To me this is a bigger more important need than an upgrade at SG.

Speaking of the SG, as we all know I'm not a Stephenson fan, I was amused at the attempted trade for Mayo when I read Bird and Morway are so high on Stephenson. You would think from their comments he is what they think Mayo is, but yet they haven't played Lance in 57 games. That makes me wonder if Stephenson isn't what they thought when they drafted him.

The attempted trade also says to me that Rush isn't what Bird thought he'd be as well, and has decided he never will be. The Pacers taking their time in picking up Rush's qualifying offer wasn't a good sign for Rush. It should have send him a message that the handwriting is on the wall. I don't foresee Rush as a core member of the team going forward, especially after last year and this year trade deadline trades that fell through with Rush as part of them.

Basketball Fan
02-26-2011, 11:31 AM
It was a boring loss to watch(if that made sense) like they totally checked out. Could be one of those days I guess.

But the Suns are coming to town hopefully they'll regroup.

CableKC
02-26-2011, 12:43 PM
I have said all season the Pacers need a good quality starting PF, and last night's game made it very evident that McBob and/or Hans are NOT the answer to the starting PF position. To me this is a bigger more important need than an upgrade at SG.
I've been saying this all season long....that it's as important that we get a Starting quality SG while still pursuing a PF in the offseason.

This is one of the reasons why ( at this point in the season ) I want to play PG 28 mpg ( even if its as the backup SG/SF ) and try to get Lance as many minutes as we can feed him to simply evaluate whether they can take on a larger role next season in the SG rotation or whether we really have to pursue a Starting SG or not.

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 12:54 PM
I'am not sure we are set at any position....

btw:am I the only one who thinks DG is always offensive-fouling on his drives?
He uses his off-hand everytime to push people away, I am really surprised he never gets called for it.
It seems to me, he's too slow to get by, without it..
But if they won't call it, I'am fine with it :)

pacer4ever
02-26-2011, 12:56 PM
I'am not sure we are set at any position....

btw:am I the only one who thinks DG is always offensive-fouling on his drives?He uses his off-hand everytime to push people away, I am really surprised he never gets called for it.

No me 2, He puts his head down and is way out of control with his left arm. He fouls a lot driving sometimes they call it sometimes they dont.

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 12:59 PM
No me 2, He puts his head down and is way out of control with his left arm. He fouls a lot driving sometimes they call it sometimes they dont.

He seems to do it basically every time..His defenders always complain about it, but they get called for the foul...

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 12:59 PM
I'am not sure we are set at any position....

btw:am I the only one who thinks DG is always offensive-fouling on his drives?
He uses his off-hand everytime to push people away, I am really surprised he never gets called for it.
It seems to me, he's too slow to get by, without it..
But if they won't call it, I'am fine with it :)

lots of bigger guys do that. evidently as long as you keep the elbow bent, it is ok. just don't extend the arm.

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 01:05 PM
lots of bigger guys do that. evidently as long as you keep the elbow bent, it is ok. just don't extend the arm.


I think he does extend his arm..every time...but you're right.
It's just weird they don't call him for that, cause it always is pretty clear to see...
Maybe I just don't understand the rules :)

CableKC
02-26-2011, 01:31 PM
I'am not sure we are set at any position....

btw:am I the only one who thinks DG is always offensive-fouling on his drives?
He uses his off-hand everytime to push people away, I am really surprised he never gets called for it.
It seems to me, he's too slow to get by, without it..
But if they won't call it, I'am fine with it :)
Honestly...I would much rather him drive slowly to the basket and trying to pick up the foul and sometimes getting an offensive foul then taking a jumpshot. By doing this...he's following the "Vogel" mantra of attacking the basket ( which makes him far more effective on the offensive end ) as opposed to the "He who will not be named" mantra of jacking up a 3pt shot.

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 01:39 PM
Honestly...I would much rather him drive slowly to the basket and trying to pick up the foul and sometimes getting an offensive foul then taking a jumpshot. By doing this...he's following the "Vogel" mantra of attacking the basket ( which makes him far more effective on the offensive end ) as opposed to the "He who will not be named" mantra of jacking up a 3pt shot.

I don't think he can slowly drive to the basket. He doesn't have the handles to do that controlled..
I think it's his only option to do it the way he does. He has to go strong or he won't see the basket.

He's too slow and his handles are too bad. Sounds perfect for an ISO-player, right? :)

BillS
02-26-2011, 02:06 PM
I'm putting this down as a "young team, inconsistent" loss. For all that there were periods in the game where I wished we had those little "pour mal du basketball" bags, this was just one of those games that will happen from time to time. Wish it hadn't, but there it is. That's why they play 'em.

What were we missing? Player movement. If the team expects Roy to be able to pass out when he gets the ball in the post, someone has to get in a passing lane before the double comes rather than just waiting to see who comes free and hope it's before Roy decides to take his shot. Players need to stop standing around and try to create lanes and shots through position, not through taking defenders off the dribble or putting up static jumpers.

This thread already is in danger of turning into Yet Another Dun thread, but say what you will about ANY of his other skills, he does two things we needed last night - move without the ball and shoot in a smooth motion after he catches it. Even if we keep him on the bench and leave the current players in there, Vogel needs to create a film session where Rush and PG (and maybe even Danny) just watch Dun cut across the baseline or angled on the lane or otherwise disrupt the defensive spacing. The need to watch where he keeps his hands so he can receive that pass and go straight into the next action. That's all - no matter what everything else boils down to, he has a lot to teach about those two simple things.

I don't want this to put PG into the starting lineup. It isn't that I think he hasn't earned it, but that there aren't enough basketballs to go around for the offense we are trying to run. DC has to be an offensive option, that's what makes the ball in his hands such a weapon. Roy has to be an offensive option, he's the one and only post player. The only player who has stunk it up offensively (efficiency-wise) who could be moved behind PG in the scoring order is (dare we say it?) Danny, and he isn't going to be downgraded as an option - at least, not for the rest of this year.

I think PG gets more opportunity to shine with the Goons and is incredibly more useful there. Leave him as 6th man.

Hicks
02-26-2011, 02:06 PM
The Pacers shot themselves in the foot plenty tonight, but did anyone else feel we got fouled a whole hell of a lot with the officials swallowing their whistles?

I saw it happening to the Jazz, too.

I don't get refs like these. Everyone starts getting hacked, and they do nothing.

That frustrated me as much as anything because there were times Dahntay and Tyler were drawing legitimate fouls, but they were not getting the whistles.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2011, 02:20 PM
I'am not sure we are set at any position....

btw:am I the only one who thinks DG is always offensive-fouling on his drives?
He uses his off-hand everytime to push people away, I am really surprised he never gets called for it.
It seems to me, he's too slow to get by, without it..
But if they won't call it, I'am fine with it :)


I hasn't noticed it until last night, and it was pretty blatant at times. I kept expecting him to get called for it.

BillS
02-26-2011, 02:21 PM
The Pacers shot themselves in the foot plenty tonight, but did anyone else feel we got fouled a whole hell of a lot with the officials swallowing their whistles?

I saw it happening to the Jazz, too.

I don't get refs like these. Everyone starts getting hacked, and they do nothing.

That frustrated me as much as anything because there were times Dahntay and Tyler were drawing legitimate fouls, but they were not getting the whistles.

To me, much as I hate it personally, as long as they are allowing the same play on both ends it isn't something I get concerned about.

I didn't mention it earlier, but I think this is the first time these guys have been handled this physically in this combination and at a certain level I think they didn't know how to take it to the other team at the other end of the court.

That said, my wife is usually the one who berates me for getting upset when something is let go at one end and then called at the other. "It's a foul anyway, they should call it," she says. Last night, she uttered the words, "Why did they call that? They let it go on the other end," and I gave her back her standard reply.

Luckily, I ducked in time...

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 02:47 PM
yeah, the referees were bad, no question.
But i thought it was bad for both teams...I think Millisap got at least 3, 4 or times fouled with no call.
I also think DG's drives aren't always clean, so i won't complain about officiating.(I'am almost at the point where I think those are star-calls for him, which is funny, considering his skill-set:)

Sookie
02-26-2011, 02:57 PM
Yeah I agree. And that's depressing because AJ routinely goes 2/10 from the field.

He's too good of a shooter for this to continue throughout the entire season, I think..

Honestly, I said last night I haven't seen him go through a shooting slump like this, typically it'll last three games at the most..but to be honest, I think I've only seen one other player go through a slump like that. (And it did last the entire season..College season's are much shorter though..:laugh:)

As for the refs. I think it hurt us that they weren't calling fouls because we couldn't make a shot, so we needed to go to the line. That said, it was called fairly because it was on both sides.

skip2mylou
02-26-2011, 03:03 PM
He's too good of a shooter for this to continue throughout the entire season, I think..

Honestly, I said last night I haven't seen him go through a shooting slump like this, typically it'll last three games at the most..but to be honest, I think I've only seen one other player go through a slump like that. (And it did last the entire season..College season's are much shorter though..:laugh:)

As for the refs. I think it hurt us that they weren't calling fouls because we couldn't make a shot, so we needed to go to the line. That said, it was called fairly because it was on both sides.


I really like AJ. He's much more of a floor-general than DC.
I would like to see him start for a few games...
You simply get the feeling the team is running much better with him at the point.(i guess that makes a good floor-general)
Give him 10 games with 30 minutes...I think he would produce well.

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 03:05 PM
He's too good of a shooter for this to continue throughout the entire season, I think..

Honestly, I said last night I haven't seen him go through a shooting slump like this, typically it'll last three games at the most..but to be honest, I think I've only seen one other player go through a slump like that. (And it did last the entire season..College season's are much shorter though..:laugh:)

As for the refs. I think it hurt us that they weren't calling fouls because we couldn't make a shot, so we needed to go to the line. That said, it was called fairly because it was on both sides.

Do you think it may have to do with his ACL or something like that? That seems to be the only thing that makes sense.. He was lights out earlier in the season and pre-season.

Kind of reminds me of what happened to Mike last year.

oxxo
02-26-2011, 03:06 PM
The Pacers shot themselves in the foot plenty tonight, but did anyone else feel we got fouled a whole hell of a lot with the officials swallowing their whistles?

I saw it happening to the Jazz, too.

I don't get refs like these. Everyone starts getting hacked, and they do nothing.

That frustrated me as much as anything because there were times Dahntay and Tyler were drawing legitimate fouls, but they were not getting the whistles.

I hate it. There needs to be a balance between not calling touch fouls and not just letting them hack each other. I feel like those that do either of these extremes are just being lazy as obviously it's harder to strike a balance between the two.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2011, 03:15 PM
Having only 10 assists as a team showed the lack of movement on this team. Knock Dunleavy all you want but we are missing his movement on offense . Rush and George both pretty much stood out by the 3 point line and the offense was stand around and take a contested jumper.
They are missing movement on offense, not "Dun's movement". I mean I do agree with your point that Dun moves great without the ball and that helps things, but you shouldn't have to accept the impact of Dun in other ways in order to get that.

Rush knows better. It's one thing to be too passive when it comes to dominating the shooting or driving the ball (anti-DJones) and quite another to being passive without the ball. One is trying to be a team player, the other is not being a team player.

George is just a confused kid when it comes to this stuff and didn't develop that game in college. I don't think we can assume Paul will automatically develop that type of game, but he should.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2011, 03:21 PM
I'am not sure we are set at any position....

btw:am I the only one who thinks DG is always offensive-fouling on his drives?
He uses his off-hand everytime to push people away, I am really surprised he never gets called for it.
It seems to me, he's too slow to get by, without it..
But if they won't call it, I'am fine with it :)
Another agree from me too.

He's off a step this year in several ways. Doesn't feel like Danny of the last 2 years to be honest. I've assumed he was burned out on JOB, but maybe he's hurt or dragging because of his Team USA work last summer.

Naptown_Seth
02-26-2011, 03:31 PM
B/c they love his passing, handles, and highlite reel dunks.
And the fact that he was virtually free to the team.

People have taken "hey, the guy getting DNP'd can help you win some games if you use him" to mean "I think he's a god who is the team star".

Of course no one has ever proposed that Josh is or should be considered a star player on the team. He's just on a cheap deal, not likely to get overpaid after this year, and is way better than regular DNP's.

The reason I hated the Tyler draft is because I was saying that you already had that level of PF in Josh. Needing/wanting a star PF is not in contradiction with that.


OTOH few teams have star talent at 5 spots. Collison, Danny and Roy are all supposed to be far more critical guys than Josh. Josh in comparison to what should be expected from his cost/role is pretty close to giving you what you need. Danny, DC and Roy are the guys struggling to be the stars.

BringJackBack
02-26-2011, 03:36 PM
So you're saying bang for the buck?

speakout4
02-26-2011, 03:42 PM
Put Dahntay in the starting lineup and play Posey with the goons. Losing Dun hurts because he plays team ball. Dun has seen it all and knows what's going on. Some of the others are just too green. Dun would get some assists .

Sookie
02-26-2011, 03:42 PM
Do you think it may have to do with his ACL or something like that? That seems to be the only thing that makes sense.. He was lights out earlier in the season and pre-season.

Kind of reminds me of what happened to Mike last year.

Personally, I think it has to do with the injury last summer.

He has a pretty shot, however, he jumps REALLY high on it. Everything's short. It's not because he's tired..because we just had a break. So I wonder if quite simply, he's just not jumping as high as he typically does. I don't know though, really.

The funny thing though, is when he came back from his torn ACL, he was actually a better shooter than the season before. Maybe the fact that he simply didn't get to shoot at all during the summer is hurting him.

Who knows. I do really think though, that he's too good of a shooter for this to continue, at least the midrange shot.

edit: I'm not for moving DC out of the starting lineup this season, and putting AJ in. If Price continues to out play DC, than just give Price more minutes. I feel like taking DC out of the starting lineup would be a bit like "punishing him" Every young guy struggles, let him get himself out of it.

We gave DC the starting spot this season, and I think it should be his. Let AJ and DC work out this summer, and compete for the spot next season. If AJ beats him then, than make the switch. But until then, for DC's confidence and for team consistency (and because AJ's just not 100%) DC should start. And if AJ's not clearly outplaying him, DC should finish too.

AJ and DC simply have different mentalities. DC's mentality is that his job is to either score, or he's going to get someone else a basket. Price's mentality is that it's his job to make sure that someone on the team gets a basket. I have a preference for the second type of mentality, I grew up watching PGs that play that way. But Collison's mentality is of the Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo ect..mentality. It's not a "bad" one, it's just different. And that mentality certainly supplies better statistics. But I just, and I think the other "Pro Price" people, have a preference for the more "floor general" mentality.

Hicks
02-26-2011, 03:44 PM
I hate it. There needs to be a balance between not calling touch fouls and not just letting them hack each other. I feel like those that do either of these extremes are just being lazy as obviously it's harder to strike a balance between the two.

Right. I hate the ticky tack stuff just as much.

I like to see light fouls go if it looks like the shot wasn't affected by it (though I know that's very, very subjective), but I hate watching guys get blatantly hacked, grabbed, or pushed with no call.

vnzla81
02-26-2011, 03:51 PM
Put Dahntay in the starting lineup and play Posey with the goons. Losing Dun hurts because he plays team ball. Dun has seen it all and knows what's going on. Some of the others are just too green. Dun would get some assists .

http://cdn.thefrisky.com/images/uploads/cnn.say_.no_m_.jpg

imawhat
02-26-2011, 04:06 PM
I thought the calls were pretty uneven in the opponent's favor for the second game in a row.

AJ is still bothered by his knee. I've seen him grab, rub and flex it during down time.

We were due for a bad offensive night after having the longest streak of 100+ point games of any team in the NBA this season. My bigger concern is our offense coming to a screeching halt because of Collison's inability to pass to teammates or set them up for good opportunities. He has to step it up.

I'm thoroughly disappointed in Granger's effort on defense. He's stopped trying again and it's affecting the rest of the team.

Our interior defense wasn't poor last night because of Josh. It was poor because he was too busy covering for Granger and Collison which put him out of position. That's why we were dominated on the boards.

xIndyFan
02-26-2011, 04:14 PM
re: the officiating.

the pacers spent a lot of time in the bonus during the game. the calls were definitely in the pacers favor. utah fouls a lot. this may be a young team thing also. sometimes the other team is just as tough as you. when you smashmouth them, they just smashmouth you back. it is something you have to deal with. the officiating was fine. they let the guys play. given the style the pacers play, that is all you can ask for.

speakout4
02-26-2011, 05:05 PM
http://cdn.thefrisky.com/images/uploads/cnn.say_.no_m_.jpg
The pacers seem to be trying much harder to get rid of Rush than Dahntay and spare me that Rush is more valuable a commodity than Dahntay as trade bait..

The trade with NO was Rush and Solo for two likely expirings and a 1st rounder which would have been somewhere between 18-22. Even Rush was quoted in the Star today that they tried to trade him two years in a row and probably will again. Clearly Rush is not highly regarded by this FO. So replacing Rush with Dahntay for some energy might be worthwhile.

You really think rush will get a second contract here?

vnzla81
02-26-2011, 05:26 PM
The pacers seem to be trying much harder to get rid of Rush than Dahntay and spare me that Rush is more valuable a commodity than Dahntay as trade bait..

The trade with NO was Rush and Solo for two likely expirings and a 1st rounder which would have been somewhere between 18-22. Even Rush was quoted in the Star today that they tried to trade him two years in a row and probably will again. Clearly Rush is not highly regarded by this FO. So replacing Rush with Dahntay for some energy might be worthwhile.

You really think rush will get a second contract here?

I don't think Rush is coming back(I think they will trade him) but either way he is a better fit in the starting unit than the bench unit, the same thing goes for DJ.

Isaac
02-26-2011, 06:44 PM
The pacers seem to be trying much harder to get rid of Rush than Dahntay and spare me that Rush is more valuable a commodity than Dahntay as trade bait..

Why would we spare you that when it's the truth? Dahntay has a bad contract and no upside. Rush is still young and teams are willing to take chance on his potential.

Dahntay Jones is a good guy for us to have in the locker-room and I do like the intensity he brings, but he is a problem for us offensively when he comes in the game. He thinks he is the best player on the team at creating his own shot (which unfortunately, he just may be) and he ruins ball movement by trying to force something on his own and he isn't good enough for that.

speakout4
02-26-2011, 07:26 PM
Why would we spare you that when it's the truth? Dahntay has a bad contract and no upside. Rush is still young and teams are willing to take chance on his potential.

Dahntay Jones is a good guy for us to have in the locker-room and I do like the intensity he brings, but he is a problem for us offensively when he comes in the game. He thinks he is the best player on the team at creating his own shot (which unfortunately, he just may be) and he ruins ball movement by trying to force something on his own and he isn't good enough for that.
When the starters are not doing well Rush adds to the problem on the offensive end. I don't think that our FO feels that Rush has a future here and in today's Star Rush is quoted as feeling that is true.

I'm not a big DJ fan but prefer him over Brandon. You can tone down DJ but toning up BR appears to be much more difficult. Hell they tired to trade BR for very little after his amazing game winner. What does that say about how he is regarded? BR is like Troy who plays as hard as he wants to rather than as he needs to.

Califan
02-26-2011, 07:37 PM
Im not to down on this loss, young team, inconsistent. Mike does bring movement and creates for others to a certain extent but i dont see why someone else cant do that, george pitched a tent on the 3 pt line all game when he could've drove against this team and created something 18 ft down. I want to see george penetrate more i know he needs to work on his handle but he doesn't need to overdo it penetrating he just needs to use his good first step and draw defenders.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2011, 07:43 PM
Dahntay has a bad contract and no upside.


2.5 mil is a bad contract? If he had been able to play all season at the quality he has for Vogel, it would be considered a steal! Dahntay only makes a mil more than Solo, and there is no comparison in the contributions of each. It's not like he's being paid Cro's last contract money. Now, that was a bad contract.