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View Full Version : Are we "falling in love with talent" again?



wintermute
02-25-2011, 06:41 AM
First Lance, then Mayo. Just wondering if anyone else felt that we're going down that dark path of talent at all cost again.

Look, I understand that we need to take chances in order to get talented players. It's just that not all risks are equal. We've taken chances on guys like Paul George (raw, weak conference), Hibbert (slow, unathletic), Hans (no upside). If they have not amounted to anything, we'd just move on with little downside. Taking talented but troubled players though, has blown up in our faces several times in the past.

I can buy all the reasons for drafting Lance. Young guy, low pick, even hired a private investigator to check out his background. Despite all that, he already has one incident (But hey the case was dropped, no harm no foul right?). To his credit though, Lance seems to fit in with our locker room culture, and it may be that being surrounded by positive role models would help him mature.

One guy like that is ok I think, but now we want to add another! Mayo is talented, and we're getting him at a cheap price, but is it too fast too soon? Mayo's "rap sheet" - marijuana possession, suspended for taking DHEA (a steroid masker, though Mayo claims innocence), fighting with a teammate - not too terrible perhaps, but not something we want to add to the mix either.

It's also rumored that we tried to get Zach Randolph added to the deal to fill our PF void. Obviously this is just a rumor but it may mean that the Pacers are not as opposed to a ZBo homecoming as many of us have assumed. He may in fact be one of our free agent targets next year, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

To summarize, I'm just pointing out that Pacers have been burned badly in the past by collecting "bad apple" players, but it seems like we're ready to try this strategy again. Thoughts?

yoadknux
02-25-2011, 06:50 AM
Dude you're not inviting them to marry your daughter, you just need them to play well, and it's not like Mayo killed the president, nuked europe, and made billion of dollars by selling rifles to terrorists. He's not the perfect player on and off the court but that was still a huge (missed) opportunity for us to improve. If we could get him before the draft i'd do it for sure

ballism
02-25-2011, 07:18 AM
I think it's more of a value move. Buy low, sell high next year. Mayo has talent, and he's a very willing defender despite the lack of size for a 2. His price will not be lower than what we offered. Worst case scenario - you ship him out for a better price.

Best case scenario - he works out as our 2. Personally, I don't mind a few headcases, as long as they work hard and play defense. And don't ask for time offs to write songs. Maybe that's just me. I even forgave Artest, untill his trade demands.
I think between Danny and Tyler, they are strong and steady personalities who would balance out a couple of problem guys. Worth to try, if it's a huge talent upgrade.

McKeyFan
02-25-2011, 07:28 AM
Lance was a second rounder. Very low risk.

People are complaining on other threads that Larry can't close because he insists on winning a deal. Looks possible that he was working New Orleans for a good player or two back for Rush and that was what blew the deal. Good!

So, he wasn't willing to take too big a risk for Mayo either, so, no, he's not letting talent totally enchant him.

wintermute
02-25-2011, 07:33 AM
So, he wasn't willing to take too big a risk for Mayo either, so, no, he's not letting talent totally enchant him.

Fair point.

PR07
02-25-2011, 09:44 AM
I think you can get by with having 1-2 knuckleheads on your roster, if their talent is worth keeping them on board. It's when you have more knuckleheads than regular players, that you run into problems.

90'sNBARocked
02-25-2011, 09:49 AM
as opposed to the Murphy/Dun , Saranus, Deiner, Solo, etc signings

Kid Minneapolis
02-25-2011, 09:53 AM
Are we "falling in love with talent" again?

Ya, it's usually the young kids that come out with this stuff. :)

Kegboy
02-25-2011, 09:59 AM
This is why I'm glad the trade didn't go through. I'm not a McBob fanboy or anything. I just feel that until this team has achieved a certain level of success and have rebuilt our fanbase, we can't be gambling on guys with checkered pasts.

I know people are sick of the milk-drinker philosophy, and I can understand that. But as someone who lived through not only the brawl but a Purdue program being obliterated by chasing high-risk/high-reward players (**** you Luthor Clay), I'm still a little gun-shy.

Hicks
02-25-2011, 11:13 AM
High-risk players will always make me uneasy post-Brawl, but it's going to have to happen eventually (unless we're crazy lucky). The trick is, I think, to not let that guy be your best player. I have no worries about Paul George or Roy Hibbert being a headcase, and odds are one of those two will be our top dog for years to come (probably George). Mayo would have been a nice piece, but he wouldn't have been 'the man' here, either, which makes the risk a little more tolerable.

There's the PR side of it, but let's face it, Indiana has proven it doesn't matter who it is, the star player or the 15th man, anything, ANYTHING negative in the press about them causes the same knee-jerk responses by the ignorant.

Larry Staverman
02-25-2011, 11:28 AM
Bottom line is whether you have choir boys or convicts the casual fans are not showing up unless you are winning consistently and it takes talent to win in the NBA.

vnzla81
02-25-2011, 11:31 AM
Yes we are falling in love with some of our mediocre players and don't want to let them go.

BringJackBack
02-25-2011, 11:33 AM
Are you serious? That literally makes ZERO (0) sense because we just tried to trade Josh and Rush for OJ Mayo

RWB
02-25-2011, 11:35 AM
Yes we are falling in love with some of our mediocre players and don't want to let them go.

Not trying to be a smart@$$, but if you can, throw out a little evidence why you believe this?

vnzla81
02-25-2011, 11:35 AM
Are you serious? That literally makes ZERO (0) sense because we just tried to trade Josh and Rush for OJ Mayo

I'm talking about us in PD.

BringJackBack
02-25-2011, 11:36 AM
Oh. My fault. :blush:

In that case, I somewhat agree. No way we're going to win a title with Josh or Rush getting the minutes they currently are and our young guys have a lot of improving to do.

Sookie
02-25-2011, 12:07 PM
I don't think you need to take a risk in order to have a good team. I really don't. A good majority of teams don't have problems. And in fact, the best teams don't have problems.

If you want to win, you can't have locker room idiots.

Now, I think taking a risk on Lance was fine. We got him mid-second round. We hired a PI. If it blows up in our face, so be it. The stupid bit was giving him a guaranteed contract. But even then, it's not a lot of money.

This trade...we're lucky it didn't go through. We almost gave up one good locker room guy whose young with talent at a position we need, for a poor locker room guy, who..is talented..but overrated..at a position we have a ton of players at. Will we need to upgrade the PF spot in order to get where we want to be. Yea, I think so. But we don't need any other young guy taking up Paul George's minutes.

DieHard
02-25-2011, 12:27 PM
I'm not sure if we are "falling in love with talent" but Bird's willingness to trade for Mayo despite his "baggage" makes me think we could actually make a run at Z Randolph in the offseason. Before I didn't think he was an option, but with this trade and the Lance pick I'm not so sure now.

oxxo
02-25-2011, 12:51 PM
You always want talent if you can get it. Though I'm of the opinion (minority?) that Mayo does not have the huge amounts of talents that people think he has.

presto123
02-25-2011, 01:18 PM
Some of you just want a trade for the sake of making a trade. Mayo is not going to be a name player in this league.

Diamond Dave
02-25-2011, 01:21 PM
Fair point.

:eek:

Hold the phone! Did you really just accept someone's counter point and agree, even possibly changing you mind?!!!!!

That's not allowed on the internet! Kudos to you sir for being a rational human being. :buddies:

90'sNBARocked
02-25-2011, 01:26 PM
Some of you just want a trade for the sake of making a trade. Mayo is not going to be a name player in this league.

Please tell me how you view this as a factual statement

Are you able to adequately predict the future?

Not trying to be rude but no one really knows

croz24
02-25-2011, 01:27 PM
name me an nba player who has never been late for a shootaround, had a beef with a teammate, or smoked marijuana. i guarantee you 95% of the league has done at least one of those things. i guess i just forgot how great of a teammate jordan supposedly was...

Diamond Dave
02-25-2011, 01:30 PM
Please tell me how you view this as a factual statement

Are you able to adequately predict the future?

Not trying to be rude but no one really knows


Obviously true that no one can say for sure. Therefore no one should be dismissed that says Josh WILL be a star. I happen to think neither is nor will be a star. However historically players that become stars do not get worse each season from their rookie year.

RWB
02-25-2011, 01:30 PM
name me an nba player who has never been late for a shootaround, had a beef with a teammate, or smoked marijuana. i guarantee you 95% of the league has done at least one of those things. i guess i just forgot how great of a teammate jordan supposedly was...

But it is more than that. The guy has proven to have an anger problem. You and I can have a beef, but it doesn't mean I'm going to get so ticked I want to punch you. We've seen this movie before and a reason some PDers are concerned with someone like Lance. We shouldn't have to hold our breath hoping something doesn't happen.

Diamond Dave
02-25-2011, 01:31 PM
name me an nba player who has never been late for a shootaround, had a beef with a teammate, or smoked marijuana. i guarantee you 95% of the league has done at least one of those things. i guess i just forgot how great of a teammate jordan supposedly was...

If I start naming players will you prove that they did have all of those things? I suspect you will just want me to assume that they did and that will be your proof.

croz24
02-25-2011, 03:28 PM
If I start naming players will you prove that they did have all of those things? I suspect you will just want me to assume that they did and that will be your proof.

yea it's based off assumptions by all of us. many of you are assuming he does indeed have problems. nothing he has done or been in trouble for is all that bad in the grand scheme of things. larry bird and dr. j choked each other during a game, but i don't hear people calling them thugs. kobe and jordan have both thrown punches at miller, what thugs they must be. jordan got in fights with teammates all the time, we better trade him because he's too thugish for our team right. and marijuana possession from a high school student??? please. i don't hear you guys calling for the heads those john wooden ucla bruins teams who were all paid off... why don't you guys talk about the type of student mayo was instead? talk about his 3.7 gpa. talk about his 29 on the act. talk about mayo's humility. people trashing his character are making just as many assumptions as i am defending it.

Haywoode Workman
02-25-2011, 03:49 PM
First Lance, then Mayo. Just wondering if anyone else felt that we're going down that dark path of talent at all cost again.

Look, I understand that we need to take chances in order to get talented players. It's just that not all risks are equal. We've taken chances on guys like Paul George (raw, weak conference), Hibbert (slow, unathletic), Hans (no upside). If they have not amounted to anything, we'd just move on with little downside. Taking talented but troubled players though, has blown up in our faces several times in the past.

I can buy all the reasons for drafting Lance. Young guy, low pick, even hired a private investigator to check out his background. Despite all that, he already has one incident (But hey the case was dropped, no harm no foul right?). To his credit though, Lance seems to fit in with our locker room culture, and it may be that being surrounded by positive role models would help him mature.

One guy like that is ok I think, but now we want to add another! Mayo is talented, and we're getting him at a cheap price, but is it too fast too soon? Mayo's "rap sheet" - marijuana possession, suspended for taking DHEA (a steroid masker, though Mayo claims innocence), fighting with a teammate - not too terrible perhaps, but not something we want to add to the mix either.

It's also rumored that we tried to get Zach Randolph added to the deal to fill our PF void. Obviously this is just a rumor but it may mean that the Pacers are not as opposed to a ZBo homecoming as many of us have assumed. He may in fact be one of our free agent targets next year, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

To summarize, I'm just pointing out that Pacers have been burned badly in the past by collecting "bad apple" players, but it seems like we're ready to try this strategy again. Thoughts?

i just took my daily dose os DHEA. Not really sure why that would be banned in the first place, or steroids really for that matter.

Justin Tyme
02-25-2011, 04:00 PM
Dude you're not inviting them to marry your daughter, you just need them to play well, and it's not like Mayo killed the president, nuked europe, and made billion of dollars by selling rifles to terrorists. He's not the perfect player on and off the court but that was still a huge (missed) opportunity for us to improve. If we could get him before the draft i'd do it for sure


Unless you are Herb Simon posting under your moniker YOU didn't lose millions upon millions by players who weren't invited to marry your daughter. You didn't watch the team YOU owned be destroyed by players you weren't inviting to marry your daughter. You didn't have one of the best sports franchises ruined by players you weren't inviting to marry your daughter. HERB SIMON DID!!!!!

Why get rid of those players who caused the fall of this franchise into he11and have the culture of the franchise changed only to bring in players who can be PR nightmares again to a franchise that hasn't re-couped it's lost fans and lost attendance from the last group of PR nightmare makers?? I get tired of "win at any cost posters" who are willing to put the Pacers back in the 6 year HE11 we are now just getting out of! Those that learn from past history have a better opportunity to succeed.

Missed opportunity? Sometimes a missed opportunity is a blessing in disguise.

Eleazar
02-25-2011, 04:02 PM
I don't think the Pacers have fallen in love with talent, but that they are having trouble evaluating talent. Mayo is a dime a dozen type of player. If given a chance the vast majority of SG's will shoot enough to average 20ppg. We already have a players like that on this team. So unless we are trying to replace one of them with a better player than it is absolutely ridiculous to try and bring in another. Unless we aren't willing to wait for our future "stars" to become "stars" then we shouldn't be trading away the glue to bring in new "stars", but trading the "stars" to bring in better "stars". You need the glue guys to be a good team.

RWB
02-25-2011, 04:03 PM
Absolutely Justin Tyme, and throw in how many businesses who had to be convinced, begged even to continue their support. As fans we were not happy, but the big money was livid.

BillS
02-25-2011, 04:08 PM
One player is not a culture, otherwise those problem players would not have been an issue because we still had Jeff "Mr. Clean" Foster on the team.

Seriously, there's a big difference between public problems in the nightlife of the city and problems between players or when a player was in High School.

I think there's a level of risk you can take for a player whose problems aren't at the level of public disapproval. This FO (and the members of this team) have shown willing to step on someone who gets out of line. I think the fans can accept a risky player if they know the problem will be dealt with.

It wasn't one problem, it was the problems coming over and over even after the franchise said they had taken care of them.

Pacersalltheway10
02-25-2011, 04:10 PM
Please tell me how you view this as a factual statement

Are you able to adequately predict the future?

Not trying to be rude but no one really knows
Yeah only that poster who is named " The Future" can predict the future.

NapTonius Monk
02-25-2011, 04:16 PM
The dark path isn't talent. Our problem has been that some of our talent has come from dark, dark paths.

Justin Tyme
02-25-2011, 04:19 PM
don't hear you guys calling for the heads those john wooden ucla bruins teams who were all paid off...


:link:

croz24
02-25-2011, 04:55 PM
:link:

google is your friend... google the name sam gilbert

or how about these quotes from bill walton:

“UCLA players were so well taken care of – far beyond the ground rules of the NCAA – that even players from poor backgrounds never left UCLA prematurely (for pro basketball) during John Wooden’s championship years."

“If the UCLA teams of the late 1960s and early 1970s were subjected to the kind of scrutiny (other schools) have been, UCLA would probably have to forfeit about eight national championships and be on probation for the next 100 years."

“I hate to say anything that may hurt UCLA, but I can’t be quiet when I see what the NCAA is doing (to other coaches) only because (they have) a reputation for giving a second chance to many black athletes other coaches have branded as troublemakers. The NCAA is working night and day trying to get (them), but no one from the NCAA ever questioned me during my four years at UCLA.”

Slick Pinkham
02-25-2011, 05:29 PM
Mayo is a dime a dozen type of player. If given a chance the vast majority of SG's will shoot enough to average 20ppg.

If you look at his second season, he shot 45.8% overall, 49.0% on 2-point shots, 38.3% on 3-point shots. That to me doesn't scream of a guy taking every possible shot at all times, good or not, and surviving merely as a high volume scorer. I usually hate to look at stats, but I have almost never have had a nagging interest in watching a Grizzies game.

I also don't know off the top of my head many guys who score 18 ppg in their 1st two years in the league, so saying he is a "dime a dozen" sounds at best a huge exaggeration.

One the other hand he has character issues which seem unlikely to disappear with maturation. I mean, do you know of many pro athletes that used to be low-lifes who happened to be very talented but became productive players who continued to be very talented? Josh Hamilton in baseball is one, but I have a hard time thinking of many others. In real life we know of high school losers who became successes, but the pro athlete lifestyle seems less conductive to maturation.

To me Tyler is a far better a basketball player than McBob so I would have willingly taken the risk for a guy who I definitely do not consider to have "dime a dozen type of player".

mb221
02-25-2011, 05:47 PM
nothing he has done or been in trouble for is all that bad in the grand scheme of things.

Personally, I feel that his consistent problems show a lack of character. It starts while he is in high school where he is suspended multiple games for the alleged assault of a referee. It is true that it came out the ref oversold the situation, but there still was a situation. Follow this with the marijuana incident. Then he heads to USC, where he is perfectly fine with receiving improper benefits. There is no way that in this day of age that a collegiate athlete is not aware of the rules regarding receiving money/gifts. Now he gets to the NBA where he gets into a fight with a teammate over a gambling debt. Then he is suspended for testing positive for a banned substance. At first he blamed an over-the-counter supplement for the tainted test, but then changed his story to an energy drink. I have no evidence that either of those statements are untrue. Now while each of these isolated incidents are not that serious on their own, it is the consistent pattern of behavior I feel shows what OJ Mayo is made up of, and as the problems keep coming I do not see any reason to believe they will stop.

He certainly is an intriguing basketball player and who knows how great he will be in the future or what he could have done for our team. But I feel the risk far outweighed the immediate rewards, so I personally am happy that the trade did not go through.

NapTonius Monk
02-25-2011, 06:02 PM
Can we just agree to be done with the Indiana/Memphis pipeline? Shawne Williams, Tinsley wound up down there, Mayo...it's too much!

BlueNGold
02-25-2011, 06:55 PM
They think they are hedging their bets...but it's pure stupidity.

They are open to pushing the envelope because they recognize they need to improve the talent, they feel they have investigated the players well enough AND that most of the other players on the team are not going to cause issues. So, in short, they believe the reward is worth the risk. That's what they are you know...they negotiate deals and enjoy the risk probably more than basketball itself. It's like a high.

BTW, I don't think it takes a team full of thugs to hurt the team. It only takes a push down the stairs or illegal (and odd) sexual activity on youtube by a guy who HAD been investigated and is now playing significant minutes on your team. ...and goodness, a year hasn't even passed. That will reinforce the injury of the last decade and prevent it from healing...as each issue happens.

Don't think there will be more issues? Fool!

Eleazar
02-25-2011, 08:09 PM
If you look at his second season, he shot 45.8% overall, 49.0% on 2-point shots, 38.3% on 3-point shots. That to me doesn't scream of a guy taking every possible shot at all times


I never said anything about take a shot at every possible time. I just said if given a chance. The ability to score is not a skill the NBA is lacking.



I also don't know off the top of my head many guys who score 18 ppg in their 1st two years in the league, so saying he is a "dime a dozen" sounds at best a huge exaggeration.


Yeah, I really don't care about what he did his rookie season, or that he was in a situation that allowed him to score 18ppg.



To me Tyler is a far better a basketball player than McBob so I would have willingly taken the risk for a guy who I definitely do not consider to have "dime a dozen type of player".

I do not understand why people think Tyler is better than McRoberts. Other than score he does nothing better than McRoberts. McRoberts is far more talented and smarter than Tyler could ever dream of. I agree that there are times when Tyler's brute force attitude is better, but that isn't very often.