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View Full Version : For Uncle Buck (& anybody esle who wants to take a stab at it)



Peck
09-21-2004, 01:42 AM
Last season you nailed that Detroit became the best team in the league after the trade.

What have the Pacers done to overcome that? Or have they? If they haven't what should they do?

In reading your concerns about Jackson & Artest being to individual oriented on team offense & how it might affect J.O. I have to ask this as well. Was that trade a mistake?

But if you don't answer that one focus on the ones above. What have we done or what should we do to go past the Pistons.

Of course my theory is now we will also have to get past Shaq, but that is another story, let's just focus on the Pistons.

Where do the Pacers stand today vs. where we were when the season ended.

Kstat
09-21-2004, 01:57 AM
Stephen Jackson has a lot of ability. If you could put reggie's brain in his body, you'd have an all-star.

Jackson never really thinks the game. The plus side of that is that he often winds up with steals most people would have hesitated on, and that he will take-and make- a lot of big shots, because he doesn't allow the pressure to get to him.

The negative side? A lot of time he makes poor gambles, which lead to open shots. Also, while he will take a lot of big shots, he NEVER PASSES THEM UP. I remember in game 2 of the 2003 NBA finals he cost the Spurs a game in which he took a really bad airball on the final play instead of getting the ball inside to Duncan.

Has Indiana done enough to possibly get past Detroit? That depends on a lot of factors. They lost whatever edge they had off the bench by trading Al. However, they closed the gap in the backcourt by signing Jackson. That applies however ONLY if they start Jackson. The guy isn't a good 6th man, he never was, and never will be.

Also, the frontcourt could EASILY become a problem if Walsh doesn't find JO some help. Both he and foster benefitted a lot last year from harrington spelling them for extended periods of time. On the flipside, the Pistons added to their frontcourt with McDyess. Meaning Walace and Wallace will get more rest per game, and JO will get less. Not good.

As for Artest and Jackson: I will agree that these two guys combined are very poor upstairs. Both of them have mental issues that can be covered up alone, but together? I just don't know how that will work out. Their skills compliment each other, but their brains don't. But at least with those guys you have a legit threat in the backcourt, wheras last year you didn't.

I do see the Pacers struggling out of the gate, because I think it will take those two a while to get used to each other. After that, it all depends on how well they mesh. Chemistry seems to be the biggest issued on the PAcers as they are now.

beast23
09-21-2004, 02:12 AM
I believe that many of us recognized our shortcomings against the Pistons.
1. Poor perimeter shooting.
2. Poor perimeter defense (inability to contain Hamilton)
3. Inability to contain Rasheed when it really counted.

Donnie and Larry have pretty much echoed the same weaknesses in comments they made this summer.

Jackson was acquired to help resolve the weaknesses on the perimeter. And in time, but certainly not this year or even next, Harrison may help resolve the size and strength differential we experienced in the frontcourt against the Pistons.

But it seems as though by plugging one hole (perimeter), we have created another one (frontcourt strength and depth). Beyond JO and Jeff, we have only Croshere that has proven reliable at PF/C.

Without another acquisition in the frontcourt, it is obvious that Larry and Donnie are putting a lot of faith in Bender's improvement and in Pollard's ability to significantly help out more than last season.

The trade brought us Jackson, who probably will be starting sometime this season. And if not this season, he will certainly start the following season. So we acquired a starter for a player that more than likely never would have cracked our starting lineup.

But in my book, without an additional reliable reserve in the frontcourt, we don't sit any better against Detroit than last season. And more than likely, we would come out worse.

fwpacerfan
09-21-2004, 08:16 AM
Sometimes a team gets better by not doing anything. Letting the current group of young players mature together. The Colts are doing it and I think the Pacers are as well. Don't forget how many years the group that went to the finals in 2000 played together. Add to that the fact that this is the 1st FULL year of Carlisle's system and there are many adjustments that were made. I would like to see this thread 'stickied' so we can look at it around the all -star break.

SoupIsGood
09-21-2004, 08:22 AM
That applies however ONLY if they start Jackson. The guy isn't a good 6th man, he never was, and never will be.


He played well off the bench for about 30 games at he start of his season with the spurs.

sixthman
09-21-2004, 08:55 AM
I'll add my disagreement with Kstat's assumption, S-Jax can't be effective off the bench. We'll just have to see.

One thing for sure: Defensively, Steven should be able to bother RIP eons better than anyone did for the P's in last year's playoffs.

I also look for the Pacers offense to continue to improve. Tinsley and Foster will be more effective offensively.

Pistons are the champs and therefore the favorite, but, if things come together, it'll be a good year. We have the talent to compete.

Unclebuck
09-21-2004, 10:09 AM
I only have a few seconds.

I think the biggest reason the Pacers lost to the Pistons had everything to do with intangibles.

Experience, poise, chemistry, mental toughness...... all that type of stuff.

Peck, to answer your question I don't know if the pacers will be better in those areas, we won't know until the pacers meet the Pistons in the playoffs. Regular season won't tell us anything.

I don't believe the Pistons overmatched the Pacers physically, Pacers matched their physial aggression. Pacers played the Pistons rather well. Pistons IMO were just a little better.

Beast23 I do disagree with you in regards to the Pacers inability to contain Sheed. Betwen Jeff, J.O and Al the pacers conmtrolled him very well, most of his points were caused by the pacers having to adjust their whole defense to Rip. Almot every scoring opportunity that Sheed got was as a result of Rip causing havoc.


Peck, you ask if I think the trade was a mistake. No I don't think it was, but we'll see.

Al was rather effective agaisnt the Pistons and his physicalness was very important.

but as I said over and over again the pacers did not lose because of the frontcourt play, it was much more of the backcourt, and Jax should help that

Anthem
09-21-2004, 10:58 AM
To soon to say.

Al being gone opens PT to 2 guys that did't get it last year: Croshere and Bender.

Everyone knows I'm not a big Cro supporter, but if he could get his head on straight he should be able to average 10 and 6 without too much trouble. And who knows about Bender.

Those two could easily make up whatever productivity we lose from Al.

indygeezer
09-21-2004, 11:59 AM
Anthem said it.

But lest we forget, Sheed was hobbled the first couple of games. As the series went on he felt better and gained confidence thus becoming more of a factor against us. I bellyached since before the trade deadline that we need another big. Hopefull they'll prove me wrong but I'm not too hopeful.
A similar question can be asked tho of the Pistons. Last year the Bored Cylenders benefitted from the trade ONLY because Sheed was on his very BEST behavior from day one. What happens if and when he reverts to his former self? Before you jump me Kstat, I know it's rhetorical and the same can be asked of RA. But w/o Sheeds influence, where would the Pistons be/have been?

Kstat
09-21-2004, 02:47 PM
Anthem said it.

But lest we forget, Sheed was hobbled the first couple of games. As the series went on he felt better and gained confidence thus becoming more of a factor against us. I bellyached since before the trade deadline that we need another big. Hopefull they'll prove me wrong but I'm not too hopeful.
A similar question can be asked tho of the Pistons. Last year the Bored Cylenders benefitted from the trade ONLY because Sheed was on his very BEST behavior from day one. What happens if and when he reverts to his former self? Before you jump me Kstat, I know it's rhetorical and the same can be asked of RA. But w/o Sheeds influence, where would the Pistons be/have been?

Rasheed is the unquestioned floor general for the Pistons. Its not that he simply didn't do anything disasterous, its that he did a lot of POSITIVE things. He made our chemistry much BETTER than it was before.

He's the defensive floor general, he makes all the defensive calls.

He's always the one getting on the crowd and his teamates to show more support.

Far as I can see, he was like that in Portland. The fact he played in what amounted to a zoo overshadowed that fact. Therefore, I don't believe there IS a "former self" to Rasheed. He's shown me anough character as a Piston to prove that to me.

People also seem to forget that Rasheed was schooled by the MASTER, Dean Smith, for four years. Dean Smith has forgotten more about hoops than most of us will ever know. Rasheed has trouble with his emotions sometimes, but his IQ as a basketball player is outstanding. I just don't think it was allowed to surface in Portland.

I just don't see Rasheed as much of a risk anymore. He just did too many extra things to help us win to make me think it was all about the money. He would have gotten the modest contract he got from us if we had lost in round two.

Arcadian
09-21-2004, 03:22 PM
People also seem to forget that Rasheed was schooled by the MASTER, Dean Smith, for four years. Dean Smith has forgotten more about hoops than most of us will ever know. Rasheed has trouble with his emotions sometimes, but his IQ as a basketball player is outstanding. I just don't think it was allowed to surface in Portland.


To nitpick Rasheed left NC after 2 yrs but whatever.

I think you have a very rosey outlook based on what 3 monthsand a championship? If the summer after the Pacers won the Championship people started saying that Ron was a leader and all of his problems were behind him I would chalk those opinions up to post-championship euphoria.

Kstat
09-21-2004, 03:29 PM
People also seem to forget that Rasheed was schooled by the MASTER, Dean Smith, for four years. Dean Smith has forgotten more about hoops than most of us will ever know. Rasheed has trouble with his emotions sometimes, but his IQ as a basketball player is outstanding. I just don't think it was allowed to surface in Portland.


To nitpick Rasheed left NC after 2 yrs but whatever.

I think you have a very rosey outlook based on what 3 monthsand a championship? If the summer after the Pacers won the Championship people started saying that Ron was a leader and all of his problems were behind him I would chalk those opinions up to post-championship euphoria.





Um, if Ron led the Pacers to a title, wouldn't that go a long way to PROVE his maturity as a player? I don't see how a mental nutcase can lead a team to an NBA title......

I suppose you could call it a rosey outlook, but if you had watched Rasheed play every night as a Piston, you'd see what I'm talking about. Rip demanded that Joe resign Sheec. Chauncey demanded that Joe resign sheed. Ben Wallace demanded Joe resign Sheed. They all say he is one of the best teamates they've ever had.

All of Rasheed's teamates wanted him back in the worst way. I think that says a lot.

TheSauceMaster
09-21-2004, 04:10 PM
Way to early to tell what the 2004/05 Pacers will be like against anyone that is good this season , it's going to take time and alot of patience to see what the end result is on the Sjax Trade.

To me the playoffs are whole diffrent game than the regular season , so it doesn't mean if you have a great season you will always fair well in the playoffs. I would say anything before the all star break is kind so , so important , I pay alot more attention after to the all star break because to me this is a time of preperation for the playoffs.

It's hard to dominate the whole season and then do the same in the playoffs , not many teams have done it. It's like a long track meet and a long distnace run you need to pace yourself so in the end you have enough to pour it on in the home strecth.

DisplacedKnick
09-21-2004, 05:32 PM
The main reason the Pacers lost to the Pistons last season is they didn't have the mental toughness that comes from playoff experience.

I mean this: If you're a defensively oriented team in the playoffs, as both those teams were, you have to play every possession of every game like it's extremely important. You learn to do that simply by going down that road - and you usually don't get it right the first time.

The Pistons didn't - last year was trip 3 for them. It was trip 1 for the Pacers. The way Indy played game 5 of the ECF showed the team wasn't ready to win a conference title yet. Teams that are don't play that kind of crap game right after regaining HC advantage and whatever tenuous control any team could have over that series.

As for this year it's close to what kstat said in his first reply. SJacks can make life tougher for the Pistons defense and he's pretty decent on the other side of the ball too. The frontcourt would worry me though. A lot will depend on Dice but if he comes back with anything, that's a lot of big people with big hops who are top defenders (Dice was considered one pre-injury). Life may be rough for JO.

But the Pacers are still the team with the best shot at beating Det. If you could find a guy who could hit a 15-18 foot shot with any consistency - so you can have him, JO and Jackson for the 3 on the floor at the same time - it would help a lot. Another big man never hurts either.

Peck
09-22-2004, 05:26 AM
I only have a few seconds.

I think the biggest reason the Pacers lost to the Pistons had everything to do with intangibles.

Experience, poise, chemistry, mental toughness...... all that type of stuff.

Peck, to answer your question I don't know if the pacers will be better in those areas, we won't know until the pacers meet the Pistons in the playoffs. Regular season won't tell us anything.

I don't believe the Pistons overmatched the Pacers physically, Pacers matched their physial aggression. Pacers played the Pistons rather well. Pistons IMO were just a little better.

Beast23 I do disagree with you in regards to the Pacers inability to contain Sheed. Betwen Jeff, J.O and Al the pacers conmtrolled him very well, most of his points were caused by the pacers having to adjust their whole defense to Rip. Almot every scoring opportunity that Sheed got was as a result of Rip causing havoc.


Peck, you ask if I think the trade was a mistake. No I don't think it was, but we'll see.

Al was rather effective agaisnt the Pistons and his physicalness was very important.

but as I said over and over again the pacers did not lose because of the frontcourt play, it was much more of the backcourt, and Jax should help that



Ok, I'll buy your theory that we will have to wait till the playoffs. But just to be the devils advoacte here let me ask the following.

If we lacked Experience, poise, chemistry, mental toughness, etc.

What did we do to improve on it. Yes, we played in the E.C. finals. But then again, so did they. They also went on to win a title. I think all that they did was improve Experience, poise, chemistry, mental toughness, etc.

I know that you think that our back court beat us. What did we do to improve it? Your gonna say Jackson & I'll agree. To a point. But I'm not convinced that our front court held it's own.

Prince equalled Artest out & in some ways made Ron look bad.

Jermaine was a trooper but was injured.

Jeff was so good that he barely got off of the bench for the final three games.

Do you feel comfortable pinning your hopes on Austin Croshere? I didn't think you liked him as a player that much?

Anyway, in a long way of asking it, do you feel that we have done enough to get past the Pistons?

I'm not talking about the politically correct answer of "we'll see". I mean do you, as of right now, feel that we could beat the Pistons in a 7 game series for the E.C. finals?

Unclebuck
09-22-2004, 10:13 AM
OK Peck, here is the answer you want.

I consider the Pistons better than the Pacers, and if I had to bet my life on it, I think the Pistons would win in a 7 games series.

But a lot can happen between now and Late May. Injuries, trades, giveaways

Vicious Tyrant
09-22-2004, 11:19 AM
I'll toss in my vote and say I'm not convinced the Pistons are better. There were some injuries that affected the outcome of the series - no excuses here, but I think this year could bring a different story.

Mental toughness does seem to be a lingering prob for the Pacers, that I agree with. Defense and shooting on the perimeter, as well. We'll see what Sex does to address that by playoff time.

I still put a question mark by Rasheeds attitude and I don't think McDyess will ever be the player he could have been.

Kstat
09-22-2004, 12:05 PM
Mental toughness does seem to be a lingering prob for the Pacers, that I agree with. Defense and shooting on the perimeter, as well. We'll see what Sex does to address that by playoff time.


Of course, I mean I know my jumper has historically been dead-on the night after getting some...:laugh:

As for Rasheed, if he hasn't done enough to convince you by now, he never will, so don't sweat it.

Vicious Tyrant
09-22-2004, 03:32 PM
As for Rasheed, if he hasn't done enough to convince you by now, he never will, so don't sweat it.

Nope, you're wrong there. I understand Rasheed has always been a good teammate, but he's got a history of distracting behavior, that's no secret. He's been a charm since joining the Pistons, but he came onto a team that immediately kicked into high gear and was arguably the best team in the league the rest of the way. Until he shows he can keep up the quality behavior through adversity, a question mark is legit.

Kstat
09-22-2004, 03:43 PM
so how many championships does he have to win? I'd like a number.

Fool
09-22-2004, 03:51 PM
I'd agree with VT.

Because of his actually adding character to the team last year (he was actually a benefit to the locker room rather than simply not being a defecit to it) I don't EXPECT something to happen but I am definately still mindful and watching to see how an entire season here turns out.

I don't see it as outlandish not to be convinced Rasheed will be a perfect soldier.

fwpacerfan
09-22-2004, 04:04 PM
I'd agree with VT.

Because of his actually adding character to the team last year (he was actually a benefit to the locker room rather than simply not being a defecit to it) I don't EXPECT something to happen but I am definately still mindful and watching to see how an entire season here turns out.

I don't see it as outlandish not to be convinced Rasheed will be a perfect soldier.



Now that Rasheed isn't in a contract year and he has his championship, let's see how he acts this season. If he can go a whole season with no mis-steps then I'll believe he's improved. It only takes one season for me to believe unlike many around here who think Artest's behavior last year was a fluke.

ImReppinBtown
09-22-2004, 04:07 PM
I think Artest will be OK next year.

indytoad
09-22-2004, 11:54 PM
The ECF wasn't nearly as close as everyone makes it sound. Except for a couple flukes it was a complete domination.

I really can't think of anything the Pacers can do to improve enough to compete with Detroit. For every valuable piece they could aquire, they'd have to lose something just as valuable, so all they can do is run in place.

IndyToad
4:30, as usual

Vicious Tyrant
09-23-2004, 12:44 PM
so how many championships does he have to win? I'd like a number.

The question is moot. (Thanks to Jesse Jackson on SNL about twenty years ago - anyone remember that?)

If the Pistons win it all again b/c McDyess takes over and Rasheed freaks out (or something unexpected like that) it doesn't establish Rasheed as a "no-problems" kind of player.

On the other hand, if the Pistons struggle and he's keeping positive and leading the team throughout a rut, that would prove a lot to me about the kind of player/person he's become.

Friend, I'm not bashing Rasheed here. These are legit points and he has established ~himself~ as a player with a question mark by his name. I think he can answer the questions and I even hope he does, but he's not there yet.

BTW, does anyone remember back in Rasheed's UNC days he had a bit of an individual rivalry with a big center, I think at Wisconsin. As I recall they had sparred in high school or something. I think his name was Rashard Griffin or something like that. Does anyone remember this guy? I always thought he was going to be a big time star, but he completely vanished. What ever happened to him?

ChicagoJ
09-23-2004, 12:46 PM
The question is moot. (Thanks to Jesse Jackson on SNL about twenty years ago - anyone remember that?)



"Not only do I deny the alligations, I deny the alligator."

:laugh: