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Kstat
09-21-2004, 01:13 AM
.......so let me get this straight.....

....you can't bear play to Jax at the beginning....

....you cant bear to play Jax at the end.....

So someone tell me why you traded for him? Is Jackson going to be "Mr. 2nd qtr?"

The amount of people clinging on to Reggie Miller on this board is insane.....

Hey, you want to kill your season by giving extended PT to a 39-year old SG, be my guest.....I just don't understand it. Even in Detroit we were all in agreement that Dumars needed to be benched near the end of his career, and Joe was only 36......

At some point, you have to ask wether its more important to watch the old man struggle through another season, or to win more games. He's only going to get worse every year, people. You don't suddenly get better when you get close to 40.

The real joke is that reggie is by all rights your THIRD-best SG, and he still gets more support than the two guys behind him.

"Remember why" could take on a whole new meaning this year....

MSA2CF
09-21-2004, 07:35 AM
The amount of people clinging on to Reggie Miller on this board is insane.....


Maybe if you had a player of his caliber on your team and in a similar situation, you'd be the same way.

Fool
09-21-2004, 07:48 AM
Them's fightin' words.

Kstat
09-21-2004, 11:21 AM
The amount of people clinging on to Reggie Miller on this board is insane.....


Maybe if you had a player of his caliber on your team and in a similar situation, you'd be the same way.

umm...


. Even in Detroit we were all in agreement that Dumars needed to be benched near the end of his career, and Joe was only 36......

Did you not read that?

scar
09-21-2004, 11:27 AM
Miller is holding this team back. Not only do I think he shouldn't start, I don't think he should play! We have 2 shooting guards that are better, and play much better defense. The only purpose I can think of for Miller being on this team is his clutch shooting. Now we have Stephen Jackson, who is very clutch, so why is Miller still here?! We, the Pacers fan, are suppose to owe him this much. Ok, how about we allow him to stay on the team, but as an assistant or a towel boy?! why don't he play 5 minutes a game and then stay away? This team is poised for a Championship run, and Miller is the only thing holding them back.

Hicks
09-21-2004, 11:45 AM
Miller is holding this team back. Not only do I think he shouldn't start, I don't think he should play! We have 2 shooting guards that are better, and play much better defense. The only purpose I can think of for Miller being on this team is his clutch shooting. Now we have Stephen Jackson, who is very clutch, so why is Miller still here?! We, the Pacers fan, are suppose to owe him this much. Ok, how about we allow him to stay on the team, but as an assistant or a towel boy?! why don't he play 5 minutes a game and then stay away? This team is poised for a Championship run, and Miller is the only thing holding them back.

As depressing of a picture that paints of Reggie, sadly it's not too far from the truth. Jackson should start over him, and Fred is a fine backup SG, who at this point would probably bring more to the table as well. (Defense, slashing, passing, and now he's developing a decent shot)

Despite how sucky it is to say in a historical sense, we may be better off without Reggie playing, and just going with Jackson and Fred. The only way I could see that NOT being the best solution, is if Jackson just totally flops in Indiana, which I really have to doubt.

Unclebuck
09-21-2004, 11:53 AM
This IMO is a much more important and interestig question than who starts.

I don't know who finishes. But I do not that Jax will get more minutes than Reggie, I think we all can agree with that.

I wonder if a lineup like this might be used from time to time

Tinsley, Reggie, Jax, Artest, J.O.

SkipperZ
09-21-2004, 12:28 PM
I wonder if a lineup like this might be used from time to time

Tinsley, Reggie, Jax, Artest, J.O.






That's exactly the lineup I woudl use, especially on the offensive end if were tied or down a few.

Defensively Reggie comes out, but Carlisle already put taht into effect last year. On a play to play basis when you can sub (i.e. Timeout or intentional fouling) then Reggie always came out when they were on defense and went in on offense. There is no reason why that should change.

Reggie is still a better SG than Freddie Jones. Freddie Jones is a solid player, but will never amount to anything past backup SG regardless of what team he plays on or how much experience he has. (unless he gets traded to the bobcats this year).

This team with or without Stephen Jackson, still lacks perimeter firepower. Reggie has again for the umpteenth time hit over 100 3s last year at a very solid percentage. Theres no reason why taht will or should change. Reggie miller, with or without Stephen Jackson, is the best perimeter shooter on the team, and the best clutch bomber on the team. Need a 2? go to JO. Need a 3? Sure if Jackson has to take it, I wont be upset, but Reggie still needs to be that first option to take that last shot.

beast23
09-21-2004, 01:24 PM
Skipper, I also think that lineup will see some court time.

But I totally disagree with you on Freddie. He's not quite to Reggie's level yet, primarily due to "consistency". But he is one of the better defensive SGs, and as many have pointed out, the last half of the season Freddie's perimeter shot really started coming around.

With more consistency in his mid-range and perimeter shooting, I could see Freddie as a capable starter for many teams, including the Pacers.

It would just give the Pacers more versatility, possibly sliding SJAX to SF and Artest to PF and JO to C against smaller lineups.

As for starting and finishing, I also think it is far more important to this team who is on the court at crunch time.

And my answer between SJAX and Reggie would be that you play whoever has the hot hand at SG. If both are hot, then slide SJAX to SF and Ron to PF.

Or, if necessary, switch out your lineup depending on whether your on the offensive end or defensive end.

But definitely ride the players that are putting the ball in the basket.

Roy Munson
09-21-2004, 03:07 PM
Reggie is still a better SG than Freddie Jones. Freddie Jones is a solid player, but will never amount to anything past backup SG regardless of what team he plays on or how much experience he has. (unless he gets traded to the bobcats this year).



In the interest of civility, I will say that your comment is "misguided". If I wasn't being so civil, I'd probably say it was retarded, ignorant, or downright stupid.

TheSauceMaster
09-21-2004, 04:24 PM
I wonder if a lineup like this might be used from time to time

Tinsley, Reggie, Jax, Artest, J.O.

I would say there is a good chance this will happen in close games at the end , Infact I hope if it's close they will explore that Lineup Option.

Even though I don't think Reggie should Start , I do think if the Games on the Line with under 2mins to go , Reggie Has to be in the Lineup, but he also has to be willing to take the shot also. I seen to many times last year reggie hesitate to take the shots he would have never passed up before.

SoupIsGood
09-21-2004, 07:14 PM
If Ronnie were traded for a starting quality big, the above small line-up for the end of games wouldn't be a problem...

Just a thought.

MSA2CF
09-21-2004, 07:59 PM
Mr. Kstat, I made my post many hours ago and my memory fails me when it comes to whether or not your original post up there had the part about Dumars. If you had that in your original post, I apologize, but I still feel the same way.

Unclebuck
09-21-2004, 08:49 PM
I actually like this lineup better

Tinsley
Jackson
Artest
Bender
J.O.

Unclebuck
09-21-2004, 08:49 PM
I actually like this lineup better

Tinsley
Jackson
Artest
Bender
J.O.

Ragnar
09-21-2004, 09:14 PM
Depends on the version of Bender we get. If it is the Bender that showed up for 15 minutes of that Kings game then yes. If it is the Bender who got injured after 15 minutes then no.

Hicks
09-21-2004, 09:16 PM
I actually like this lineup better

Tinsley
Jackson
Artest
Bender
J.O.



Same here.

MSA2CF
09-21-2004, 09:18 PM
I like this better:

Jackson
Miller
Mullin
Davis
Smits

;)

SoupIsGood
09-21-2004, 09:21 PM
That Kings game was a great game.

I was loving it, every minute of it, except for the part where we lost.

Kstat
09-21-2004, 09:26 PM
I prefer:

Fleming
Long
Person
Tisdale
Herb

SoupIsGood
09-21-2004, 09:31 PM
I prefer

Tinsley
Miller
Artest
O'neal
Foster

Blast from the past, huh?

Hicks
09-21-2004, 09:38 PM
Tinsley
Miller
Artest
O'Neal
Miller

was nice also :cry: :cool:

sweabs
09-21-2004, 10:03 PM
Tinsley
Miller
Artest
O'Neal
Miller

was nice also :cry: :cool:

Hicks.....
Don't start them now! :laugh:

Kstat
09-21-2004, 10:28 PM
Pollard>Miller.

Brad will never be an all-star in the west, you'll see.....

ChicagoJ
09-21-2004, 10:38 PM
I prefer:

Fleming
Long
Person
Tisdale
Herb

Herb was the PF, Stipo started at center in 1986-87 and 1987-88. Tisdale was almost never a starter in Indiana, and Herb didn't start at C, but if he didn't commit five TOs in the first six minutes (admittedly, he usually had the five TOs in the first three minutes), then might slide over to C when Tisdale would check in.

Chuckle all you want, but that starting lineup wasn't too bad. We had no depth, mind you. Well, in the second year we had a young, loudmouthed rookie shooting guard that would disappear in the fourth quarter. And with Dr. Jack and Dick Harter on the sidelines, those were easily the best-coached Pacers' teams of the 1980s. Yes, I realize that isn't saying much.

Kstat
09-21-2004, 10:41 PM
Jay, I fully realize that wasn't the starting lineup of the 87 Pacers.

I said its the lineup I PREFERRED.

I never was a Stipanovich fan;)

John Long 4 Life. Word.

Destined4Greatness
09-21-2004, 10:42 PM
Is amazing how many morons don't realize that Starting means slightly more than Nill(Sp). Its PT that matters.
Spelling

Kstat
09-21-2004, 10:47 PM
Is amazing how many morons don't realize that Starting means slightly more than Nill(Sp). Its PT that matters.


Um, oh brilliant one, pray tell what exactly is the title of this thread?

ChicagoJ
09-21-2004, 10:53 PM
Okay.

How could you be a Laimbeer fan and not a Stipo fan? If the Pacers were a better team, Stipo might have been as notorious as Laimbeer. :o

I was a big, big John Long fan. You guys had so much depth in the backcourt that he was wasting away as the fourth guard.

Don't know if you remember the story, but the Pistons brass refused to trade Long to another team in the division, so they traded him to Seattle. Appearantly, DW had a little deal worked out with Seattle because a couple of days later, Long was back in the Central Division.

Chuck Person and John Long were huge upgrades over Stansberry and Kellogg. :puke:

Kstat
09-21-2004, 11:10 PM
How could you be a Laimbeer fan and not a Stipo fan? If the Pacers were a better team, Stipo might have been as notorious as Laimbeer.

Yeah, but Laimbeer had this thing called TALENT....Stipo just liked to hit people.....well, that and throw the ball away...


I was a big, big John Long fan. You guys had so much depth in the backcourt that he was wasting away as the fourth guard.

Yeah, but he suffered during the Dick Vitale years, he dersved a medal of honor from us. A championship ring was the least we could do..:laugh:


Chuck Person and John Long were huge upgrades over Stansberry and Kellogg.

Yeah, but that Stanberry sure could fly, couldn't he?:cool:

What did you have against special K? I thought he was the best player on the team for a couple years...:confused:

SoupIsGood
09-21-2004, 11:21 PM
Is amazing how many morons don't realize that Starting means slightly more than Nill(Sp). Its PT that matters.


Yeah, those that have different opinions must be morons.

Destined, you never disappoint me man. Each one of your posts almost always either make little to no sense or makes me chuckle. Sometimes, as an added bonus, it's both.

This was a chuckler. :laugh:

SkipperZ
09-22-2004, 01:45 PM
Reggie is still a better SG than Freddie Jones. Freddie Jones is a solid player, but will never amount to anything past backup SG regardless of what team he plays on or how much experience he has. (unless he gets traded to the bobcats this year).



In the interest of civility, I will say that your comment is "misguided". If I wasn't being so civil, I'd probably say it was retarded, ignorant, or downright stupid.




oh im sorry, apparently Fred Jones has done something so magnificent last year that my opinion that he will never be a starting caliber shooting guard is "retarded ignorant and downright stupid"

what pray tell did his 4 points and god knows how little assists and rebounds a game show you about his ability to become a starting caliber sg in this league? was it the offensive OUTBURST against boston in the first round of the playoffs? A whopping 8 pts a gmae.

anyone looking at those stats would call him a joke. I watch pacer games. So i know better. I acknowlodge that he's a good player, and a better than good defender. He's at a point right now in his career, where he's on a thin line between career backup sg, and a player that can amount to somethign greater. He's nearing the prime of his career age wise. So tell me what exactly WOWED you last year that makes my comment not only wrong, but RETARDED.

what exactly did u see that proves my comment RETARDED? is he as good as quentin richardson? Or Joe Johnson, Eddie Jones, Allan Houston, Sprewell, Jamal Crawford, Doug Christie, Voshon Lenard, Maggette, Rip HAmilton, Ricky Davis, Stephen Jackson, Reggie Miller, Derek Anderson, and all the other average to good starting sgs in the league? because if you do, then im not the retarded one here buddy.

And how could u KNOW SO SURELY that he WILL BECOME in the FUTURE as good as those guys? do you HAVE a time machine? or a crystal ball? That youre SO SURE that he's gonna be THAT good that you can call my comment DOWNRIGHT STUPID?

Because YOU think he has a shot doesnt make people who disagree with you DOWNRIGHT STUPID.

Some people have blinders on about some players. Freddie Jones at this point is nothing but a bench player, and his chance of becoming a starting caliber sg is about the same as someone like Keyon Dooling has of ebing a starting caliber pg in the league. The only difference is that Dooling isnt on YOUR Team.

Sorry to go off on this but i hate people who just DERIDE other peoples opinions just because they arent the same as theirs. Especially when they dont give anything to back them up, but just feel free to call a post IGNORANT RETARDED AND DOWNRIGHT STUPID. Your comment was the ignorant one buddy.

Other people on this board, I would say the majority, disagree with me on the fact that Freddie is a lifetime backup. But you didnt see no one else come out and call me retarded did u? no because they have respect for others opinions as long as those opinions arent hateful or hurtful in any way. and if anyone WERE to say anything in response to my post it certainly would have more meaning than what you wrote. You could at least tell me WHY you think Fred Jones has potential to be that caliber a player instead of just calling me stupid. dick.

Roy Munson
09-22-2004, 03:10 PM
Reggie is still a better SG than Freddie Jones. Freddie Jones is a solid player, but will never amount to anything past backup SG regardless of what team he plays on or how much experience he has. (unless he gets traded to the bobcats this year).




In the interest of civility, I will say that your comment is "misguided". If I wasn't being so civil, I'd probably say it was retarded, ignorant, or downright stupid.




oh im sorry, apparently Fred Jones has done something so magnificent last year that my opinion that he will never be a starting caliber shooting guard is "retarded ignorant and downright stupid"

what pray tell did his 4 points and god knows how little assists and rebounds a game show you about his ability to become a starting caliber sg in this league? was it the offensive OUTBURST against boston in the first round of the playoffs? A whopping 8 pts a gmae.

anyone looking at those stats would call him a joke. I watch pacer games. So i know better. I acknowlodge that he's a good player, and a better than good defender. He's at a point right now in his career, where he's on a thin line between career backup sg, and a player that can amount to somethign greater. He's nearing the prime of his career age wise. So tell me what exactly WOWED you last year that makes my comment not only wrong, but RETARDED.

what exactly did u see that proves my comment RETARDED? is he as good as quentin richardson? Or Joe Johnson, Eddie Jones, Allan Houston, Sprewell, Jamal Crawford, Doug Christie, Voshon Lenard, Maggette, Rip HAmilton, Ricky Davis, Stephen Jackson, Reggie Miller, Derek Anderson, and all the other average to good starting sgs in the league? because if you do, then im not the retarded one here buddy.

And how could u KNOW SO SURELY that he WILL BECOME in the FUTURE as good as those guys? do you HAVE a time machine? or a crystal ball? That youre SO SURE that he's gonna be THAT good that you can call my comment DOWNRIGHT STUPID?

Because YOU think he has a shot doesnt make people who disagree with you DOWNRIGHT STUPID.

Some people have blinders on about some players. Freddie Jones at this point is nothing but a bench player, and his chance of becoming a starting caliber sg is about the same as someone like Keyon Dooling has of ebing a starting caliber pg in the league. The only difference is that Dooling isnt on YOUR Team.

Sorry to go off on this but i hate people who just DERIDE other peoples opinions just because they arent the same as theirs. Especially when they dont give anything to back them up, but just feel free to call a post IGNORANT RETARDED AND DOWNRIGHT STUPID. Your comment was the ignorant one buddy.

Other people on this board, I would say the majority, disagree with me on the fact that Freddie is a lifetime backup. But you didnt see no one else come out and call me retarded did u? no because they have respect for others opinions as long as those opinions arent hateful or hurtful in any way. and if anyone WERE to say anything in response to my post it certainly would have more meaning than what you wrote. You could at least tell me WHY you think Fred Jones has potential to be that caliber a player instead of just calling me stupid. dick.



I couldn't have re-inforced my point any better. thanks.

Kstat
09-22-2004, 03:13 PM
:lurk:

ImReppinBtown
09-22-2004, 03:26 PM
The only reason people think Fred Jones is going to be something more than a bench player is because he can dunk with the best of them. Sure he has good D, but thats about it. If Jones wouldnt have been in/won the dunk contest last year he wouldnt have had the confidence to be the player he is now. He's a good off - the - bench player.

SoupIsGood
09-22-2004, 06:14 PM
I couldn't have re-inforced my point any better. thanks.

In the "interest of civilty", I'm going to say that I don't really agree with that comment, or any of your other comments on this thread.

However, If I weren't such a civil and nice guy, I'd probably say something like burn in hell you effing *******.

No offense man, really. I wasn't insulting you or anything. That just what a different me would say. :devil:

ChicagoJ
09-22-2004, 06:26 PM
Roy, I'm not sure some of the new kids know where you're coming from.

SkipperZ
09-22-2004, 07:43 PM
im not sure how that reinforced your point. I was under the impression that your point was that Fred Jones will become a player capable of starting on a good basketball team. My post certainly didn't reinforce that point.

Hicks
09-22-2004, 07:45 PM
Can some of you please simmer? There's never a good reason to start name calling.

Destined4Greatness
09-22-2004, 08:55 PM
Is amazing how many morons don't realize that Starting means slightly more than Nill(Sp). Its PT that matters.


Yeah, those that have different opinions must be morons.

Destined, you never disappoint me man. Each one of your posts almost always either make little to no sense or makes me chuckle. Sometimes, as an added bonus, it's both.

This was a chuckler. :laugh:


This was a chuckler really, thanks. WTF can't debate the point so you just laugh. That is why it is moronic. The people who support it, can't make an argument for it.

Soup, you are pathetic you make fun of me for making fun of other peoples beliefs, maybe its my belief they are morons. You hypocrite.

Let me make this simple since you are obviously not intelligent.

You denounce me for doing something, while doing the same thing. You=Hypocrite.

SoupIsGood
09-22-2004, 09:22 PM
Is amazing how many morons don't realize that Starting means slightly more than Nill(Sp). Its PT that matters.


Yeah, those that have different opinions must be morons.

Destined, you never disappoint me man. Each one of your posts almost always either make little to no sense or makes me chuckle. Sometimes, as an added bonus, it's both.

This was a chuckler. :laugh:


This was a chuckler really, thanks. WTF can't debate the point so you just laugh. That is why it is moronic. The people who support it, can't make an argument for it.

Soup, you are pathetic you make fun of me for making fun of other peoples beliefs, maybe its my belief they are morons. You hypocrite.

Let me make this simple since you are obviously not intelligent.

You denounce me for doing something, while doing the same thing. You=Hypocrite.

Yeah this one goes under the "makes no sense" category.

What point was there to debate? You called people morons, I'm sorry, was I supposed to counter that?

It was my impression that you called them morons because they had a certain opinion. You say you just think a lot of people who post here are morons. If this was truly what you meant, I think you would have worded it differently, but whatever.

And I'm not going to sit here and argue my intelligence with you, it's pretty pointless. You obviously think you're smarter than most here.

I never shot down anyone's opinion's, I just stated my opinion of your posts. :flirt:

Kstat
09-22-2004, 09:26 PM
:lurk:

Now children........

SoupIsGood
09-22-2004, 09:44 PM
KStat, I've always wondered, what's your name mean? There is a radio station named KSAT I think, does that have anything to do with it?

sweabs
09-22-2004, 09:49 PM
KStat, I've always wondered, what's your name mean? There is a radio station named KSAT I think, does that have anything to do with it?



Yeah, there is also a streetballer named Kstat.

SoupIsGood
09-22-2004, 09:54 PM
Ahh, I see.

I've watched about two minutes of streetball in my entire life, so no wonder I was so in the dark on that one.

sweabs
09-22-2004, 09:56 PM
Ahh, I see.

I've watched about two minutes of streetball in my entire life, so no wonder I was so in the dark on that one.

No...I was just guessing as well.
I'm not sure if that is what the name is after...

Kstat
09-22-2004, 10:17 PM
SO lets review the possibilities.....

A) KSAT radio (whatever that is)
B) Kstat street baller (good guess)
C) I'm a Kansas State graduate
D) I'm a big fan of strikeouts......
E) none of the above.

Yeah, I'd tell you which one it is, but you can probably guess for yourselves. I was never a big And1 fan.

For your information, its a nickname I got back in high school. My first name starts with a K. the "stat" has to do with the fact I remember every little statistic imaginable, specifically pertaining to basketball.

My schoolmates gave me a "Kstat" Tshirt. I guess it just stuck in basketball circles.

Normally, I just go by "K."

SkipperZ
09-23-2004, 12:26 PM
dddd

beast23
09-23-2004, 01:19 PM
The only reason people think Fred Jones is going to be something more than a bench player is because he can dunk with the best of them. Sure he has good D, but thats about it. If Jones wouldnt have been in/won the dunk contest last year he wouldnt have had the confidence to be the player he is now. He's a good off - the - bench player.I don't agree at all.

I believe Freddie will make it for a lot of other reasons. Sure he has athleticism and hops. And his D is among the best in the league at SG.

But even with a short career and not much opportunity to play, last season he made significant strides in his perimeter and mid-range shooting abilities.

These are skills that he began showing a few weeks before the All-Star game, by the way. So I would think that his having the confidence to win the dunk contest may have derived from the success he was having for the season, and not the other way around.

But I would ask you. Freddie has athleticism, quickness, hops, defensive abilities and the ability to slash. Assuming that his improved shooting was not a fluke and he maintains the same consistency from this point on, just what more would you require from a starting SG?