PDA

View Full Version : Why Brandon Rush starting is a tragedy affecting the success of this team



mattie
02-23-2011, 08:55 PM
It's pretty simple. If Indiana is every going to compete they are depending on Paul George turning into an all star. If he never turns into an all star then of course we'll continue to hover around .500, hoping to land another good pick.

The best way to develop players, just as every all star ever has been, is to put them in the starting lineup, give them the ball and allow them to do what they do best, and improve in the process.

This is why Rush starting will severely stunt the growth of the Pacers. Rush now starting under Vogel will with out a doubt play good or solid. This will lead to him keeping the starting job for at least the next 3 years or so. Vogel will continue to argue PG works best with the second squad (whatever that means- I'm sorry, you play your best players... period, it's a simple concept) causing the Pacers to hover around .500 for the next few years.

This is depressing.

Frankly, PG has to start, and Lance needs and opportunity to play right behind him and develop into a future contributor.

judicata
02-23-2011, 09:18 PM
A little faith in the coach that has turned this franchise around is warranted.

NapTonius Monk
02-23-2011, 09:20 PM
It's pretty simple. If Indiana is every going to compete they are depending on Paul George turning into an all star. If he never turns into an all star then of course we'll continue to hover around .500, hoping to land another good pick.

The best way to develop players, just as every all star ever has been, is to put them in the starting lineup, give them the ball and allow them to do what they do best, and improve in the process.

This is why Rush starting will severely stunt the growth of the Pacers. Rush now starting under Vogel will with out a doubt play good or solid. This will lead to him keeping the starting job for at least the next 3 years or so. Vogel will continue to argue PG works best with the second squad (whatever that means- I'm sorry, you play your best players... period, it's a simple concept) causing the Pacers to hover around .500 for the next few years.

This is depressing.

Frankly, PG has to start, and Lance needs and opportunity to play right behind him and develop into a future contributor.Soooooo...the Rushleavy era has started then?

gummy
02-23-2011, 09:21 PM
Wow. I think this is a a major overreaction. No way can we project years down the line at this point.

If Brandon plays as well as everyone else under Vogel most of us would be very happy. This doesn't have to be Rush vs. George, especially since both guys can play SF minutes. If Brandon does well it'll be George and Rush as far as I am concerned.

PacerGuy
02-23-2011, 09:22 PM
Sorry I think you are wrong.
-Rush deserves to show what he can do w/o JO'B (like many have!)
-Paul needs minutes, but doesn't need presure & needs time to grow.
-This move does not mess w/ a productive 2nd unit, & is familuar to the 1st.
-This does not affect Lance at all.

CableKC
02-23-2011, 09:23 PM
Unlike Dunleavy....you are aware that BRush is still going to be on the roster for the near future ( barring any trade )?

Until he's traded...he's part of this core...I think that we'd have to figure out how to integrate him into the lineup as much as there is a need to see what PG and Lance can do.

For now...for his rookie season....I have ZERO problem with PG playing in the Goon Squad while BRush is inserted into the Starting lineup. If anything....I'd think that it would promote more consistency as PG has primarily played well with the Goon Squad ( a very effective and cohesive group ) and BRush has played more with Granger/Hibbert/DC in the Starting lineup prior to the Vogel era.

As long as PG is getting 24 mpg....I'm cool with it for this season.

If there is anything that one can complain about it would be playing Inferno ahead of Lance....not that BRush ( a more experienced Player ) is Starting ahead of PG...much less Lance.

Pacersalltheway10
02-23-2011, 09:24 PM
Soooooo...the Rushleavy era has started then?

Nah. It looks like dunleavy is done playing as a pacer.

mattie
02-23-2011, 09:24 PM
This probably is an overreaction. I'm severely disappointed PG didn't start, which is probably causing me to lose the ability to think rationally for the moment.

CableKC
02-23-2011, 09:26 PM
This probably is an overreaction. I'm severely disappointed PG didn't start, which is probably causing me to lose the ability to think rationally for the moment.
He'll get his chance....no need to rush into things. If you want to get upset about something...complain when Lance gets no minutes when we are winning or losing in a blow-out game.

NapTonius Monk
02-23-2011, 09:29 PM
Nah. It looks like dunleavy is done playing as a pacer.

:morning: :disappoin

joeshow31
02-23-2011, 09:36 PM
I think Rush just needs to put it together and make it happen. Lance is going to get his opportunity. Larry cut him a break after his run-in with the law so that shows something.

Swish
02-23-2011, 09:47 PM
http://twitter.com/#!/MikeWellsNBA/status/40557966700584960


Vogel decided against starting Paul George because he wants to keep the 2nd unit, which has been their best unit at times, together.

Naptown_Seth
02-23-2011, 10:24 PM
Wow. I think this is a a major overreaction
Ya think.

Sheesh. Then again 6 posts in so not worth getting uptight about I guess.


George is getting his minutes, that's all anyone should ask. The problem with JOB was ZERO PT and lots of negative crap, as well as not working a lot off of Roy. No one from the area of thinking I was part of was saying that all the kids need 36 minutes.

What we wanted is what Vogel is doing, minus Dun over Rush. Some kids start or see starter minutes, the rest are getting solid minutes off the bench. They all have pretty well defined roles so that they have an anchor to develop from.

Right now George and Tyler come off the bench as the scoring punch, and that works great.



Oh, and Rush for the F bomb dunk to give you the one point lead at the end of the game = tragic.

Come on, step up your fan game already and learn the sport.

PaceBalls
02-23-2011, 10:25 PM
Brandon Rush, game winning shot... :p

Swish
02-23-2011, 10:28 PM
This was a very unfortunate ending to this game for you, topic creator. http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif

CooperManning
02-23-2011, 10:33 PM
I totally agree that Brandon Rush is affecting the success of this team...

mattie
02-23-2011, 10:35 PM
hahaha Hey I'll do this every night lol if that means Rush is going to slam home the game winner!

Kemo
02-23-2011, 10:35 PM
LOL @ "tragedy"

mattie
02-23-2011, 10:40 PM
Hey PG is clearly better than Rush so I don't think it is crazy saying he needs to get the start and more minutes. Especially since no one outside of Indiana would say Rush should start.

Pacers probably would have won a little more comfortably with PG starting, and closing. (on the offensive side)

DEEman
02-23-2011, 10:43 PM
hahaha Hey I'll do this every night lol if that means Rush is going to slam home the game winner!

http://gadgetsteria.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/facepalm.jpg

mattie
02-23-2011, 10:49 PM
[IMG]http://gadgetsteria.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/facepalm.jpg[MG]

You know Dunleavy had a game winner earlier this season as well... Does that mean we all miss him starting? You aren't really that dense are you?

I mean I get it, as long as Vogel eventually put's PG in the starting lineup, no later than the start of next season there is no issue. It's not that big of a deal. But PG is much better than Rush, he should start, and nearly every single coach in the NBA would have PG in the starting line up right now.

DEEman
02-23-2011, 10:55 PM
We are winning, we are finally testing Rush in a normal situation ( coach that has confidence in the team, different tactic that suits Rush more) and we are developing PG now. What else do you need? And having a scorer from the bench is a important one for me 2. Our bench is not irrelevant! ;)

So just at least support it for a while, or at least try to see some positive things in a starting Rush.

LG33
02-23-2011, 10:58 PM
I don't see what's so wrong with this thread. Mattie stated his point clearly and respectfully. He didn't say Brandon Rush was horrible, nor did he suggest that he shouldn't ever finish games. In fact, the original poster assumed Brandon would play well enough to keep the starter's role - which is something that I actually hope is the case. If Paul George is the better player, he will eventually start - whether that's next week, month or season is anyone's guess. And even if he doesn't, he'll get enough quality minutes (as he has lately) to develop into whatever he is to become. I understand your concerns, but I don't share them. At least not when it's Rush - another guy who we really don't know what he can fully do yet - in front of him.

Psyren
02-23-2011, 10:59 PM
I'm an avid Rush basher, but I've said it time and time again. He needs to be starting.

George is the better player. I don't find that debatable.

But Rush needs to start. That doesn't mean he needs to finish games always. With Dun out, Rush will likely be the starter, and that's fine by me.

I want PG off the bench because he is the better player. He adds extra spark and helps get things going. Rush works best when he's not being counted on to do much (nice role, huh?) but that's a fact. If he comes off the bench and has to be counted on to do something, chances are he won't. He's not that player.

George will get his chance someday. But right now, we need PG's spark off the bench. And having Rush's defense with the first unit, and occasional basket here and there are important to that first unit.

mattie
02-23-2011, 11:09 PM
I get the argument and while I disagree, it is certainly not a bad way to go about things, especially to end this season.

The second unit is definitely a huge reason for the recent success. Also, like everyone has said, as long as PG gets his 24 minutes every night he should progress just fine.

ilive4sports
02-23-2011, 11:11 PM
I'm an avid Rush basher, but I've said it time and time again. He needs to be starting.

George is the better player. I don't find that debatable.

But Rush needs to start. That doesn't mean he needs to finish games always. With Dun out, Rush will likely be the starter, and that's fine by me.

I want PG off the bench because he is the better player. He adds extra spark and helps get things going. Rush works best when he's not being counted on to do much (nice role, huh?) but that's a fact. If he comes off the bench and has to be counted on to do something, chances are he won't. He's not that player.

George will get his chance someday. But right now, we need PG's spark off the bench. And having Rush's defense with the first unit, and occasional basket here and there are important to that first unit.

Ummm didn't you post "ugh" in response to finding out Rush was starting tonight?

Psyren
02-23-2011, 11:15 PM
Ummm didn't you post "ugh" in response to finding out Rush was starting tonight?

I did indeed. Point being?

I'm still not a fan of Rush. My point in this thread was simply that with Dunleavy hurt, Rush should be the starter.

He's not good enough to be counted on to do much, which he would be on the second unit. George is better, and helps keep the flow of that second unit.

Only other option is Dahntay, and he's not starting material.

All I'm saying is with what we have, Rush should be starting. No questions asked.

I never claimed that suddenly I like the guy. I don't much care for his game.

PR07
02-23-2011, 11:15 PM
Too many people put too much stock into who starts. It's how many and when you play the minutes that really matters. George was on the court at the end of the game, and so was Rush.

Not only this, but Manu Ginobolli was a 6th man for a lot of his career. There's no doubt he was a better player than say Bruce Bowen, but the team was better with him in that role. I have no doubt that George will eventually be a starter on this team, but there's no need to force the issue right now. When it happens, George will be ready.

Sookie
02-23-2011, 11:17 PM
A lot of times it's best to have a really talented first year player come off the bench.

It's brings the player along slowly, and also adds a spark to the team when that player comes in the game.

BlueNGold
02-23-2011, 11:23 PM
I don't even care who starts now. I'm just hoping Mike takes his time healing so he can return to the team in 2018.

Mr_Smith
02-23-2011, 11:25 PM
This thread is irrelevant

Naptown_Seth
02-23-2011, 11:28 PM
LG33 - it was the whole "tragedy" angle, which is pretty dramatic verbage if you ask me.

How about "Lance might play, clearly the End Times are here" as a thread topic next.

I also call BS on this premise...

If Indiana is every going to compete they are depending on Paul George turning into an all star.
Ever? The only possible way Indy can compete is if Paul becomes an all-star? So if Roy becomes Smits, Collison becomes Workman+, Josh and Tyler become some variation of Davis and Davis in terms of game impact, and if Rush continues to be SG McKey they are still screwed?

Hardly. This winning cat can be skinned a lot of ways. Freaking Paul had some outright horrible plays tonight, Roy struggled against Monroe, Danny was hit and miss (esp on defense) and Price couldn't make a bucket and they still won the game.

Rush didn't just hit the game winning shot anyway, he helped make other plays including that shot block to end the half. Plus Rush is shooting 42.3% from 3, George is 29.5% from 3, so from a true SG viewpoint Rush does give you more of the outside threat. Rush is also still blocking more shots per game despite George having the length advantage.

Paul is very promising, but this team has several other very solid young talents and I think their winning will continue to be based on mass contributions that vary from game to game.

pacer4ever
02-23-2011, 11:30 PM
LG33 - it was the whole "tragedy" angle, which is pretty dramatic verbage if you ask me.

How about "Lance might play, clearly the End Times are here" as a thread topic next.

I also call BS on this premise...

Ever? The only possible way Indy can compete is if Paul becomes an all-star? So if Roy becomes Smits, Collison becomes Workman+, Josh and Tyler become some variation of Davis and Davis in terms of game impact, and if Rush continues to be SG McKey they are still screwed?

Hardly. This winning cat can be skinned a lot of ways. Freaking Paul had some outright horrible plays tonight, Roy struggled against Monroe, Danny was hit and miss (esp on defense) and Price couldn't make a bucket and they still won the game. We were playing the Pistons :)

Rush didn't just hit the game winning shot anyway, he helped make other plays including that shot block to end the half. Plus Rush is shooting 42.3% from 3, George is 29.5% from 3, so from a true SG viewpoint Rush does give you more of the outside threat. Rush is also still blocking more shots per game despite George having the length advantage.

Paul is very promising, but this team has several other very solid young talents and I think their winning will continue to be based on mass contributions that vary from game to game..

mattie
02-23-2011, 11:40 PM
LG33 - it was the whole "tragedy" angle, which is pretty dramatic verbage if you ask me.

How about "Lance might play, clearly the End Times are here" as a thread topic next.

I also call BS on this premise...

Ever? The only possible way Indy can compete is if Paul becomes an all-star? So if Roy becomes Smits, Collison becomes Workman+, Josh and Tyler become some variation of Davis and Davis in terms of game impact, and if Rush continues to be SG McKey they are still screwed?

Hardly. This winning cat can be skinned a lot of ways. Freaking Paul had some outright horrible plays tonight, Roy struggled against Monroe, Danny was hit and miss (esp on defense) and Price couldn't make a bucket and they still won the game.

Rush didn't just hit the game winning shot anyway, he helped make other plays including that shot block to end the half. Plus Rush is shooting 42.3% from 3, George is 29.5% from 3, so from a true SG viewpoint Rush does give you more of the outside threat. Rush is also still blocking more shots per game despite George having the length advantage.

Paul is very promising, but this team has several other very solid young talents and I think their winning will continue to be based on mass contributions that vary from game to game.

I've admitted I was being a bit irrational. I do fear that in the long run it may take them a while to give PG big minutes... We'll have to wait and see.

As far as needing PG to be an all star to compete? Yes this has to happen. This is not dramatic. It's not like it's a do or die situation. If PG doesn't turn out to be that great for instance, I won't be worried, I'll enjoy his contributions regardless. With that said, yes, PG has to turn into a legit all star for this team to compete. As has been said many times, this team has lots of good players, but they need someone who can take over the scoring load and allow Granger to play second fiddle. I don't think this thought process needs to be rehashed. To win 55 games for instance? That would have to happen. To play for maybe the second seed in the playoffs for instance? That would have to happen.

Sure- to be devils advocate you could argue, "but hey what if Roy turned into a big time all star, or what about DC?" I think we all know, that as good as both Roy and DC are, neither will turn into all stars. (Roy certainly may have a couple all star seasons, but not to the affect he could personally lead the team) PG on the other hand does have that potential. I think the best bet Indiana has right now to turn into a top contender is if he becomes that guy. That would turn this team into a very deep and strong team lacking at the most, a power forward.

BillS
02-23-2011, 11:42 PM
Here's the perspective I have and something I almost started a thread on if my credibility would allow it.

Suppose PG starts with Dun on the bench.

Your current top 3 options in the starting lineup are some order of Granger, Collison, and Hibbert - Hibbert because he is in the post, Collison because a scoring option is why you want the ball in his hands rather than having him pass off immediately, and Granger because he is the current scoring player on the team.

If you add Paul to that lineup, either he is the 4th option (meaning his stats go to hell and people start complaining about how he is used) or he displaces one of the other top 3.

In the Goons, PG is at worst the 2nd option and arguably the 1st option.

So - if you move PG to the starting 5, which starter are you going to move to 4th option? Notice I am not AT ALL mentioning Dun or Rush, so any use of them in a reply will be flushed and ignored.

pizza guy
02-23-2011, 11:46 PM
Kobe Bryant
96-97 Games Played 71 Games Started 6
97-98 Games Played 79 Games Started 1

I'm not saying Paul George is Kobe Bryant, and obviously Mamba came out of high school instead of 2 years of college. But, if you want to argue that All Stars are made by starting games in their rookie season, you're simply not right.

Guys have talent that develops at different rates. That's why Blake Griffin can come in and light up the highlights while Paul George (a more well-rounded player) has to take time to develop.

Rush isn't as talented as George, and I can't wait for the day that George takes the starting spot. But, if he's not ready, he's just not ready. No use throwing a young guy to the wolves while we're trying to secure our playoff spot.

pacer4ever
02-23-2011, 11:51 PM
Kobe Bryant
96-97 Games Played 71 Games Started 6
97-98 Games Played 79 Games Started 1

I'm not saying Paul George is Kobe Bryant, and obviously Mamba came out of high school instead of 2 years of college. But, if you want to argue that All Stars are made by starting games in their rookie season, you're simply not right.

Guys have talent that develops at different rates. That's why Blake Griffin can come in and light up the highlights while Paul George (a more well-rounded player) has to take time to develop.

Rush isn't as talented as George, and I can't wait for the day that George takes the starting spot. But, if he's not ready, he's just not ready. No use throwing a young guy to the wolves while we're trying to secure our playoff spot.
and Kobe made the Allstar game in 98 off the bench

mattie
02-23-2011, 11:51 PM
Here's the perspective I have and something I almost started a thread on if my credibility would allow it.

Suppose PG starts with Dun on the bench.

Your current top 3 options in the starting lineup are some order of Granger, Collison, and Hibbert - Hibbert because he is in the post, Collison because a scoring option is why you want the ball in his hands rather than having him pass off immediately, and Granger because he is the current scoring player on the team.

If you add Paul to that lineup, either he is the 4th option (meaning his stats go to hell and people start complaining about how he is used) or he displaces one of the other top 3.

In the Goons, PG is at worst the 2nd option and arguably the 1st option.

So - if you move PG to the starting 5, which starter are you going to move to 4th option? Notice I am not AT ALL mentioning Dun or Rush, so any use of them in a reply will be flushed and ignored.

Instead of describing exactly how the offense should be run, I think you could make the case that with PG in the starting line up, it would have a somewhat similar make up or could at least attempt be similar to Rondo, Pierce, Allen and KG.

I think this is a situation where with PG starting and getting over 30 minutes, and getting much more options on offense it would allow the four to develop together. Since they are the future, that needs to happen. I'd like to see them have growing pains now instead of next season which is likely to happen.

mattie
02-23-2011, 11:54 PM
Kobe Bryant
96-97 Games Played 71 Games Started 6
97-98 Games Played 79 Games Started 1

I'm not saying Paul George is Kobe Bryant, and obviously Mamba came out of high school instead of 2 years of college. But, if you want to argue that All Stars are made by starting games in their rookie season, you're simply not right.

Guys have talent that develops at different rates. That's why Blake Griffin can come in and light up the highlights while Paul George (a more well-rounded player) has to take time to develop.

Rush isn't as talented as George, and I can't wait for the day that George takes the starting spot. But, if he's not ready, he's just not ready. No use throwing a young guy to the wolves while we're trying to secure our playoff spot.

Eddie Jones was a real good player and better than Kobe at the time, thats why Kobe didn't start. - That and just out of HS are rarely ready to play while those who have played some college no matter how much are sometimes ready to play off the bat.

Again, I realize it will be ok if PG doesn't start right now and gain those extra minutes... This is ok. The point has been made. I'll will be ok with it, and I'm actually a fan of Rush, I just don't think he should start..

I still respectfully disagree with the decision though. I think you play the best players on the court, especially when you're talking about the prior 4 I mentioned who I believe are the future of the club and need as much playing time together as possible.

dgranger17
02-24-2011, 12:28 AM
Paul George has been averaging a little over 24 minutes per game (including 1 game in Detroit when he only played 12 minutes) his last 6 games. Not too bad considering he's a rookie. Could he be playing more? Obviously, but we have and/or had Rush, Dunleavy, Jones, and Granger all competing for time with him. I'd like to think half the game is pretty good minutes for a rookie. Also, we're 4-2 in the last six games. His time will come. As long as we're winning, don't talk **** about anybody's minutes.

Conference Finals

Taterhead
02-24-2011, 12:59 AM
This probably is an overreaction. I'm severely disappointed PG didn't start, which is probably causing me to lose the ability to think rationally for the moment.

Yeah, I kind of agree with your original sentiment, but you are rushing it just a little. I think next year as long as Paul shows steady progress through the end of the season, then we should take your suggested approach.

But let him get his feet wet a little first. Rush is still capable of being a big upgrade over Dunleavy and needs to start more. Lets not forget he needs the time as well. So just let Paul be the focal point of the second unit offensively. That will give him a similar opportunity.

IndyPacer
02-24-2011, 12:59 AM
Good call, Rush haters. :laugh: Did you find Rush's last play to be tragic?

I don't get the Rush vs. George nonsense. Rush compliments the starters quite well with his outside shooting and perimeter defense. George could get plenty of playing time between the 2 and 3 positions. I don't view either as being a threat to the other. I really like both players, especially their defense. They both played pretty well. And every team is going to dread dealing with our second unit Goon Squad with George and Hansbrough coming in. Starting is massively overrated, and Rush doesn't have to be benched in order for George to gain more playing time.

mattie
02-24-2011, 01:05 AM
Good call, Rush haters. :laugh: Did you find Rush's last play to be tragic?

I don't get the Rush vs. George nonsense. Rush compliments the starters quite well with his outside shooting and perimeter defense. George could get plenty of playing time between the 2 and 3 positions. I don't view either as being a threat to the other. I really like both players, especially their defense. They both played pretty well. And every team is going to dread dealing with our second unit Goon Squad with George and Hansbrough coming in. Starting is massively overrated, and Rush doesn't have to be benched in order for George to gain more playing time.

Not reading the thread = fail

or

(just in case you did read it)

reading comprehension > you

IndyPacer
02-24-2011, 01:19 AM
Not reading the thread = fail

or

(just in case you did read it)

reading comprehension > you

Did you miss that I was specifically addressing the sentiment that had been raised at Rush (that's goes for within a thread and just in general)? That's what others in the thread also were addressing. The first sentence in my post indicating this was a clue. It's the one that is specifically directing my comments to Rush's detractors. Thanks for the "lesson," clownshoes.

BTW, your position that it's vital for a rookie to be pushed into center stage immediately is ridiculous. George is very young and is still filling out physically. We don't need him playing 40 minutes a game as a rookie. Gradually working up to 25 to low 30s would be plenty for now. He's being brought along at a much more sensible pace than whatever you are proposing.

Hibbert
02-24-2011, 01:20 AM
Disappointed in the lack of appreciation for Rush here. He is constantly being bashed and undervalued here without any reason. He is a great role player for this team and if he starts he can continue helping us win more games. He is a very good defender, very good outside shooter, and when he wants to can drive to the basket with the best of them. With him though its just a matter of will and want and I think coach Vogel is his guy and just what he needs. Let's give him a chance and see how it all plays out before throwing him under the bus.

mattie
02-24-2011, 01:28 AM
No one is hating on him. No one yet has said he is anything but a character guy that plays hard and wants to contribute in any way he can. No one in this thread has in any way detracted from Rush.

Eleazar
02-24-2011, 01:40 AM
While George does have more raw talent, right now Rush is a better player. That isn't because he is going to score more or whatever, it is because he is more polished and is less likely to make mistakes.

being more talented does not mean they are the better player. Rush is a good example of this. Other than George Rush has the most raw talent on the team, but that doesn't mean he is a better player than Granger, Hibbert, or Collision. If I was to rank the players on this team just by pure talent George, Rush, and McRoberts would all be in the top 5, I could probably make a good case for them being the top 3 on the team, but raw talent isn't everything.

pacer4ever
02-24-2011, 01:47 AM
Disappointed in the lack of appreciation for Rush here. He is constantly being bashed and undervalued here without any reason. He is a great role player for this team and if he starts he can continue helping us win more games. He is a very good defender, very good outside shooter, and when he wants to can drive to the basket with the best of them. With him though its just a matter of will and want and I think coach Vogel is his guy and just what he needs. Let's give him a chance and see how it all plays out before throwing him under the bus.

Yep B rush is one of my favorte Pacers he plays defense and is unselfish team first player.

cdash
02-24-2011, 02:19 AM
Disappointed in the lack of appreciation for Rush here. He is constantly being bashed and undervalued here without any reason. He is a great role player for this team and if he starts he can continue helping us win more games. He is a very good defender, very good outside shooter, and when he wants to can drive to the basket with the best of them. With him though its just a matter of will and want and I think coach Vogel is his guy and just what he needs. Let's give him a chance and see how it all plays out before throwing him under the bus.

What are you talking about? The people that don't like Rush (myself included) are in the minority around here. Actually people really like Rush and hate Dunleavy and have been pretty vocal about it. Not sure what you have been reading, besides the title of this thread.

cdash
02-24-2011, 02:21 AM
While George does have more raw talent, right now Rush is a better player. That isn't because he is going to score more or whatever, it is because he is more polished and is less likely to make mistakes.

being more talented does not mean they are the better player. Rush is a good example of this. Other than George Rush has the most raw talent on the team, but that doesn't mean he is a better player than Granger, Hibbert, or Collision. If I was to rank the players on this team just by pure talent George, Rush, and McRoberts would all be in the top 5, I could probably make a good case for them being the top 3 on the team, but raw talent isn't everything.

I disagree with this. I think George is a better player than Rush right now. I'm interested to see what other people think, because it's pretty well known that I don't have a soft spot in my heart from Brandon Rush's basketball skills. What say you other PDers? George or Rush, right now, who is the better player?

pacer4ever
02-24-2011, 02:27 AM
I disagree with this. I think George is a better player than Rush right now. I'm interested to see what other people think, because it's pretty well known that I don't have a soft spot in my heart from Brandon Rush's basketball skills. What say you other PDers? George or Rush, right now, who is the better player?

I perfer George. But he has a point George still makes rookie mistakes that Rush doesnt. But that will go away in time. Also George is not adjusting well to the NBA 3 again this will improve in time. His freshmen year he didnt shoot the ball great and that improved as he got more confidence and experince in his sophmore year. I expect the same jump from year 1 to year 2 as a pacer as well.

PaceBalls
02-24-2011, 02:28 AM
I love Brandon Rush. He was my favorite player on the team last year. But really... PG is a better player with more upside. Paul needs some serious work on his 3pt shot though.

Also they might both be considered gaurds, but Brandon is huge for a guard, and not as in tall, but just freaking big, the dude has a barrel chest. I think he is more of a small forward now days, but he is still quick enough to guard most SGs. Brandon is built more like Ron Artest is, able to body up and overpower most wing players, while Paul is more finesse on defense. They are very different types of players.

pacer4ever
02-24-2011, 02:28 AM
What are you talking about? The people that don't like Rush (myself included) are in the minority around here. Actually people really like Rush and hate Dunleavy and have been pretty vocal about it. Not sure what you have been reading, besides the title of this thread.

No they both get hated around here. Just whoever has the off night or worse night gets the blame which is unfair to both.

cdash
02-24-2011, 02:35 AM
I perfer George. But he has a point George still makes rookie mistakes that Rush doesnt. But that will go away in time. Also George is not adjusting well to the NBA 3 again this will improve in time. His freshmen year he didnt shoot the ball great and that improved as he got more confidence and experince in his sophmore year. I expect the same jump from year 1 to year 2 as a pacer as well.

Give me an example of rookie mistakes he's been making. I honestly haven't seen any that I can think of. He's made mistakes, but they aren't what I would consider to be rookie mistakes.

cdash
02-24-2011, 02:37 AM
Another question for people: Why do you think the front office is so down on Brandon Rush? That is, of course, assuming you buy into all these whispers and rumors that the front office is trying to trade him. If nothing else, why do you think he is the wing they are trying to deal?

PaceBalls
02-24-2011, 02:44 AM
Another question for people: Why do you think the front office is so down on Brandon Rush? That is, of course, assuming you buy into all these whispers and rumors that the front office is trying to trade him. If nothing else, why do you think he is the wing they are trying to deal?

I'd say because he is/was a stoner, but it's Larry Bird running things. It's not like he never puffed down. Maybe he upset the owner? :shrug:

I really don't know besides that.

I guess they feel like he is too tentative or whatever, maybe they had much higher expectations for him, but in a small market team not everyone can be a star... or get paid like one. I think he is a great role player. His next contract is not going to get him more than 3-4mpy. I don't really see any good reason why they would give up on him.

cdash
02-24-2011, 02:51 AM
I'd say because he is/was a stoner, but it's Larry Bird running things. It's not like he never puffed down. Maybe he upset the owner? :shrug:

I really don't know besides that.

I guess they feel like he is too tentative or whatever, maybe they had much higher expectations for him, but in a small market team not everyone can be a star... or get paid like one. I think he is a great role player. His next contract is not going to get him more than 3-4mpy. I don't really see any good reason why they would give up on him.

I think part of it is that he is frustrating to watch. You sit there and watch this guy and he has all the tools and attributes to be a really, really good player, but he just isn't. Once in a while he shows flashes and it seems so effortless. Why doesn't he do it all the time? There are times he is out there that you flat out forget he is on the court. To someone like Larry Bird, who drafted this guy and is invested in how he performs, it has to be excruciating to watch. Then the weed thing couldn't help.

I think when you get down to it and accept that he is what he is--an ace man-to-man defender and spot shooter on offense--then you are okay. I don't think he is a starter in this league, but I do think he is a valuable role player as a 7th or 8th man with a clearly defined role. To Bird and the people that drafted him, I don't know that they want to accept that. Just my theory.

PaceBalls
02-24-2011, 02:54 AM
I think part of it is that he is frustrating to watch. You sit there and watch this guy and he has all the tools and attributes to be a really, really good player, but he just isn't. Once in a while he shows flashes and it seems so effortless. Why doesn't he do it all the time? There are times he is out there that you flat out forget he is on the court. To someone like Larry Bird, who drafted this guy and is invested in how he performs, it has to be excruciating to watch. Then the weed thing couldn't help.

I think when you get down to it and accept that he is what he is--an ace man-to-man defender and spot shooter on offense--then you are okay. I don't think he is a starter in this league, but I do think he is a valuable role player as a 7th or 8th man with a clearly defined role. To Bird and the people that drafted him, I don't know that they want to accept that. Just my theory.

That is how I look at him. I think he is DG and PGs back up for the future. I don't expect him to score 20 a game or be the focal point of the offense. I don't expect him to get paid 10mpy either. When you start looking at him like a 6th man / back up wing player you realize he is one of the best in the NBA at that role.

Hibbert
02-24-2011, 03:09 AM
[/URL]
What are you talking about? The people that don't like Rush (myself included) are in the minority around here. Actually people really like Rush and hate Dunleavy and have been pretty vocal about it. Not sure what you have been reading, besides the title of this thread.


[url]http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60614&highlight=rush (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60614&highlight=rush)

cdash
02-24-2011, 03:14 AM
[/URL]


[url]http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60614&highlight=rush (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60614&highlight=rush)

One thread, a month ago, after he played a crappy game. It's been a new era since Vogel took over, since then people have pretty much defended Rush.

ilive4sports
02-24-2011, 03:17 AM
One thread, a month ago, after he played a crappy game. It's been a new era since Vogel took over, since then people have pretty much defended Rush.

I would say its more 50-50. A lot of people are on the if it ain't broke dont fix it boat where they like everything where it is (pre Dun injury aka Rush on the bench). Even a lot of people who wanted Dun on the bench want Jones to back up PG, not Rush.

Personally I think Rush should be playing ahead of DJones. I like what Jones has done for us lately, but overall and in the long run I think its better for Rush to play.

pacer4ever
02-24-2011, 03:20 AM
Give me an example of rookie mistakes he's been making. I honestly haven't seen any that I can think of. He's made mistakes, but they aren't what I would consider to be rookie mistakes.

Tonight when he faked the **** out of his guy with a Killer cross over he decided to try to dunk over a big and got blocked. I thought the play should have been a liitle 5 ft shot. He did that 2 times tonight. They are miner things that will get better in time . He still gets lost on defense but that is 10x better than it was to begin the season. By next season he will figure out how to play the NBA game and make huge strides. Just like he did in collge.

cdash
02-24-2011, 03:22 AM
Tonight when he faked the **** out of his guy he decided to try to dunk over Moneroe. I thought the play should have been a liitle 5 ft shot. He did that 2 times tonight. They are miner things that will get better in time . He still gets lost on defense but that is 10x better than it was to begin the season. By next season he will figure out how to play the NBA game and make huge strides. Just like he did in collge.

That's not a rookie mistake. That's him being aggressive and trying to take it hard to the hoop. I honestly didn't think Monroe (or Wallace, or whoever it was) would get there in time to draw the charge, and I'm not sure that his feet were really outside the charge box. I didn't have a problem with that play. I think he thought at the very least, he was going to get to go to the charity stripe.

pacer4ever
02-24-2011, 03:30 AM
That's not a rookie mistake. That's him being aggressive and trying to take it hard to the hoop. I honestly didn't think Monroe (or Wallace, or whoever it was) would get there in time to draw the charge, and I'm not sure that his feet were really outside the charge box. I didn't have a problem with that play. I think he thought at the very least, he was going to get to go to the charity stripe.

I just hope he learns the little 5 ft jumper he would get so many points if he devlopes a good touch around the rim and good feel when to attack and when to be passive ( melo is very good at this) and take the best shot avalible. But I am confident that in time he will be a deadly scorer.

presto123
02-24-2011, 03:32 AM
I like Brandon Rush. Maybe Vogel is the right guy to get him focused and we can regularly see all the tools he has. He was a little more aggressive tonight and that's a good sign. I hope we don't get rid of him.

Eleazar
02-24-2011, 04:48 AM
That's not a rookie mistake. That's him being aggressive and trying to take it hard to the hoop. I honestly didn't think Monroe (or Wallace, or whoever it was) would get there in time to draw the charge, and I'm not sure that his feet were really outside the charge box. I didn't have a problem with that play. I think he thought at the very least, he was going to get to go to the charity stripe.

He may have been aggressive and trying to take it hard to the basket, but part of being a rookie is not always knowing when to take it hard to the basket and when to play more finesse. I personally have no doubt that by the beginning of next season George will clearly be the better player. Right now George is nipping at Rush's heels, but I don't think he is quite there yet. It defiantly isn't unreasonable to think that George is the better player right now.

IndyPacer
02-24-2011, 07:51 AM
I disagree with this. I think George is a better player than Rush right now. I'm interested to see what other people think, because it's pretty well known that I don't have a soft spot in my heart from Brandon Rush's basketball skills. What say you other PDers? George or Rush, right now, who is the better player?

I'd need to see a few more games of Rush under Vogel, as he just now is starting to play like he did before his injury. He played 34 minutes last night, whereas he played 32 minutes total in the previous 3 games since he has been back.

I expect George to become the best player on the team, so I definitely have high expectations for George, but right now I'd say Rush and George are pretty close. I think Rush is a better fit for the starting lineup right now; both are very good defenders (something anyone who has ever read one of my posts knows I HIGHLY value), but Rush is a more accurate 3-point shooter, something that I think fits well with Hibbert for an inside-out game. I like George and Hansbrough to lead the Goon Squad, which I think is going to be a huge pain for other teams to deal with. The talent level isn't going to drop off with a substitution of guys like George and Hansbrough for Rush and McRoberts.

If at some point starting George over Rush or Granger benefits the team, I'm fine with that. Right now I believe that Rush is a better fit with the starting lineup just as I think McRoberts is a better fit with the starters than Hansbrough. I have little doubt that both Rush and George will be given ample opportunity to contribute under Vogel.

Speed
02-24-2011, 09:08 AM
BRush to this thread.... HOW YOU LIKE ME NOW!!

:)

Day-V
02-24-2011, 09:11 AM
Can we ever just sit-back and enjoy a victory?

Speed
02-24-2011, 09:25 AM
Can we ever just sit-back and enjoy a victory?

We are like the opposite of what you usually hear.

Always too high, Always to low. Try to stay really unevenly keeled.

mattie
02-24-2011, 09:43 AM
Can we ever just sit-back and enjoy a victory?

Reading > you.

Day-V
02-24-2011, 09:59 AM
Reading > you.

No it really isn't. I read the thread, and I stand by my statement.

xIndyFan
02-24-2011, 11:24 AM
Give me an example of rookie mistakes he's been making. I honestly haven't seen any that I can think of. He's made mistakes, but they aren't what I would consider to be rookie mistakes.

a couple of rookie mistakes and a couple of maybe mistakes.

1) so-so shooting from the 3 pt line, but good shooting from just inside it. don't remember who to credit [sookie maybe?], but PG is still used to the college 3-pt line. his range has not moved out to the NBA 3-pt line. this seems a rookie thing that will correct itself by next year or so.

2) this one drives me crazy. PG is really good at getting to the rim, but not finishing. he will do some really nice move, dribble, jump thru traffic and come up short at the rim. that seems to be inexperience.

3) this is a maybe. he is a lurcher [not sure that's a word :laugh:] on defense still. still chasing the little fakes and getting by on his athleticism instead of using position. biting fakes too much.

5) another maybe. underuses his left hand and gets tunnel vision in traffic. he is a willing passer it seems, but tends to put on his dahntay imitation when driving. if he gets in trouble you get the TJ last second pass to whoever he happens to see at the last minute. that strikes me as a rookie kind of mistake. with time and game play, the game will slow down and he will see more of what is going on.

just a couple of thoughts. :)

pacersgroningen
02-24-2011, 11:41 AM
This thread is irrelevant

it came in a winning effort, therefore it is not :D

BillS
02-24-2011, 11:45 AM
Instead of describing exactly how the offense should be run, I think you could make the case that with PG in the starting line up, it would have a somewhat similar make up or could at least attempt be similar to Rondo, Pierce, Allen and KG.

I think this is a situation where with PG starting and getting over 30 minutes, and getting much more options on offense it would allow the four to develop together. Since they are the future, that needs to happen. I'd like to see them have growing pains now instead of next season which is likely to happen.

Perhaps, but that would take a pretty hefty overhaul of the system, multiple players able to read-and-react (not going to be easy for a 2nd year PG, rookie SG, and 3rd year center), and would still drop someone's stats pretty significantly.

I think there are enough basketballs on the floor to cover 3 guys getting big numbers. 4 is a LOT harder, and Boston is an exception that has a lot more to do with HOW the skills fit together than it does the skills themselves.

Mackey_Rose
02-24-2011, 11:54 AM
I've been an advocate for starting Rush every game he has been available this season. I think his ability to defend the perimeter, and specifically to slow down dribble penetration fills a serious void in our starting lineup.

Another good call from Vogel.