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Naptown_Seth
02-05-2011, 01:05 AM
Look, I have to be the #1 most thrilled person in the entire world when it comes to the coaching change. People called to congratulate me like I'd accomplished something, they knew how much it meant to me.

I'm really happy to see how Vogel is running the rotations and what type of plays and style they are trying to run.

Everything is green grass and blue skies.


BUT...this was Toronto on the road, Cleveland on an epic losing streak, and Portland who was just in Portland playing on TUE, in Denver on WED, and then Indy today all while traveling through/behind one of the worst winter storms in a long time. Their star player wasn't out there and hasn't been for some time.


And the Pacers let these teams get back into games, to the point of risking what would have been a humiliating loss to the Cavs to halt their streak.

So while I'm all for the enthusiasm of Vogel and the good vibes of the change in general, this does not make this a good team or a drastically altered team. The coaching change was needed so they can START the process of learning to be a good team, and that carries the implication of a lot of rough terrain ahead of us.


You've got to temper your joy just a bit so you don't get washed out by the eventual hard losses to come. The focus of excitement shouldn't be on the wins, at least for us (vs the team I mean), but on the change in who you get to see play and how they play EVEN WHEN THEY LOSE.

I'll be much more interested to see the post game thread after that first loss, or 2nd loss even, when reality comes back and reminds everyone how we got here.

In other words, I don't think we can view this as some great playoff team that was just waiting to be unleashed. This is more like a batch of seeds that someone finally decided to put water and fertilizer on.

Don't get p****d when the mistakes by Price, George, Josh and Tyler cost them games. Don't get PO'd when Roy slumps it up or Collison is killing them. Don't get on the emotional rollercoaster of the W-L record which is tied closely to the whims of the schedule.

Even when these kids lose it will be attempting to play the right way with the right rotation.

I now return you to your :dance: and Vogel's viewings of :box:.

Hicks
02-05-2011, 01:10 AM
I'll choose to keep living in the now, thank you very much. It was crappy living with O'Brien this long, and I'm going to enjoy every second of this 3-0 start, even if it ends Sunday. I'm not going to temper it because something bad is inevitably coming; I'll worry about the bad when it's actually bad.

xBulletproof
02-05-2011, 01:17 AM
Their star player wasn't out there and hasn't been for some time.

Sure he was. Lamarcus Aldridge played.

Brandon Roy is no longer a star, and will probably never be one again.

BlueNGold
02-05-2011, 01:21 AM
Even if we start losing games after this honeymoon period, the team is playing the right way. Until that happened, there was not going to be progress.

...and while the victories are nice, this is just the beginning of this team learning how to play together. It's really priceless. Jim O'Brien had nearly 4 years to get these guys playing together and he never did get that done.

troyc11a
02-05-2011, 01:21 AM
Look, I have to be the #1 most thrilled person in the entire world when it comes to the coaching change. People called to congratulate me like I'd accomplished something, they knew how much it meant to me.

I'm really happy to see how Vogel is running the rotations and what type of plays and style they are trying to run.

Everything is green grass and blue skies.


BUT...this was Toronto on the road, Cleveland on an epic losing streak, and Portland who was just in Portland playing on TUE, in Denver on WED, and then Indy today all while traveling through/behind one of the worst winter storms in a long time. Their star player wasn't out there and hasn't been for some time.


And the Pacers let these teams get back into games, to the point of risking what would have been a humiliating loss to the Cavs to halt their streak.

So while I'm all for the enthusiasm of Vogel and the good vibes of the change in general, this does not make this a good team or a drastically altered team. The coaching change was needed so they can START the process of learning to be a good team, and that carries the implication of a lot of rough terrain ahead of us.


You've got to temper your joy just a bit so you don't get washed out by the eventual hard losses to come. The focus of excitement shouldn't be on the wins, at least for us (vs the team I mean), but on the change in who you get to see play and how they play EVEN WHEN THEY LOSE.

I'll be much more interested to see the post game thread after that first loss, or 2nd loss even, when reality comes back and reminds everyone how we got here.

In other words, I don't think we can view this as some great playoff team that was just waiting to be unleashed. This is more like a batch of seeds that someone finally decided to put water and fertilizer on.

Don't get p****d when the mistakes by Price, George, Josh and Tyler cost them games. Don't get PO'd when Roy slumps it up or Collison is killing them. Don't get on the emotional rollercoaster of the W-L record which is tied closely to the whims of the schedule.

Even when these kids lose it will be attempting to play the right way with the right rotation.

I now return you to your :dance: and Vogel's viewings of :box:.


Hey, Cleveland and Toronto were wins the team needed with all things considered and they came through. Tonights game was a big win because it served notice that this is not the same team as it was under Obie. Now, I don't think anyone would realistically predict the Pacers to become Eastern Conference Champions, but the playoffs look like a real strong possibility. I like the way this team plays now - blue collar, hard working - effort!

As you suggested, this team is young and will make mistakes. I am glad that the young guys are playing and will get the opportunity to work through some of their struggles. But most importantly, this is a team I enjoyed watching tonight. I did not feel cheated by their effort one bit. They seem to be worth the price of admission. How long has it been since any of us could say that? I am optimistic but not in dreamland.

Naptown_Seth
02-05-2011, 01:23 AM
Good points for both of you, though of course we all know that losing Roy reduces what Portland is. LA is awesome, but so are Love and Griffen and their teams are well below .500. Takes more than one guy.


As for living in the now, I can't fault you that. I'm worried more about when the sugar high crash comes along. I'm just saying that going the right direction is not the same as being there. You kids are all busting with excitement 20 miles down the road on the way to DisneyWorld, and then by Tennessee the mood sours. :D

Remember the joys of today 10 minutes after that first loss.




They seem to be worth the price of admission.
Many of them always were, except once you were admitted you found out they weren't playing or weren't playing the right part.



Sorry guys, the whole thing is just the pragmatist in me. Step 1 is YAY, I'm with you on that, I spent a lot of money on that. But the wins aren't what the YAY is about, right? That's just the gravy here.

Major Cold
02-05-2011, 01:23 AM
Enjoy it we will. When the great basketball minds alter their approach to this simplistic coaching, we will fade slightly.

But I won't say that Frank can't adjust his game plan. I would love to see some curls for Dun/Granger more. But do not structure the offense around it. Wrinkles will arise more in the coming weeks....oh wait we won't have time.

We will begin to slow down, this will be the greatest test for the team. Can they still play hard when they are outplayed?

Day-V
02-05-2011, 01:23 AM
I still say O'Brien would've found a way to lose that Cleveland game.



But anyway, like Hicks said. I know it's not going to last forever, but I'm staying on this ride until the absolute end.



And then I'm going to want to go on it again.

Heisenberg
02-05-2011, 01:25 AM
I feel people are drawing sides in the same way they did with JOB, at least they like to view it that way. People see in the moment posts of enthusiasm/disgust and interpret it as "Vogel's the answer" or "Obie's the devil incarnate" when neither's the case (outside of a few cases). Some perspective is certainly valuable but I don't think even Vogel's biggest supporters so far, if asked in the middle of a few off days, would actually think he's some savior.

I dunno, just seems to me people are seeking out polarization sometimes.

xBulletproof
02-05-2011, 01:28 AM
They haven't had Roy, even when he was playing as we know. He's played in less than half of their games, but God he played badly.

However they're still a .500 team in the West even without him. In the East and not playing the competition in the West as often they're probably in the range of an Atlanta or Orlando team in the East. This is still a quality win.

ilive4sports
02-05-2011, 01:29 AM
Damnit Seth let me be happy! At least until we get beat badly by Miami.

BlueNGold
02-05-2011, 01:30 AM
I feel people are drawing sides in the same way they did with JOB, at least they like to view it that way. People see in the moment posts of enthusiasm/disgust and interpret it as "Vogel's the answer" or "Obie's the devil incarnate" when neither's the case (outside of a few cases). Some perspective is certainly valuable but I don't think even Vogel's biggest supporters so far, if asked in the middle of a few off days, would actually think he's some savior.

I dunno, just seems to me people are seeking out polarization sometimes.

Compare Jim and Frank's systems and philosophies and tell me they are not polarized.

I believe some people are truly fans of Frank's style and methods. Yes it is the honeymoon...so we can give it a few months. But there is also truly a recognition of fundamental differences, not an explicit effort to seek polarization.

pacer4ever
02-05-2011, 01:32 AM
Compare Jim and Frank's systems and philosophies and tell me they are not polarized.

I believe some people are truly fans of Frank's style and methods. Yes it is the honeymoon...so we can give it a few months. But there is also truly a recognition of fundamental differences, not an explicit effort to seek polarization.

He models his coaching after Hubie Brown of course i am a fan of his methods

this is a winning brand of basketball i will always be a fan of coach V if he countuines to coach like Hubie.

benching Paul for taking a bad shot gained him a lot of prasie for me. Hopefully he will do that with all the player 2

Pacers4Life
02-05-2011, 01:33 AM
BUT...this was Toronto on the road, Cleveland on an epic losing streak, and Portland who was just in Portland playing on TUE, in Denver on WED, and then Indy today all while traveling through/behind one of the worst winter storms in a long time. Their star player wasn't out there and hasn't been for some time.

I've been having similar thoughts of course.. but I didnt agree with much you said in the post game thread.. it didnt warrant any thanks from me anyways,
and now i see here that you're telling people to relax a little bit.

I did that to someone today in another thread.. and i thought about deleting it immediately after. Who am I to tell a certain individual how they should feel at that particular time on that particular day.

We're all entitled to our opinions and feelings and while I admit most of us are getting a bit carried away, its a welcomed relief to the drivel thats been getting posted on here of late.

Taterhead
02-05-2011, 01:34 AM
Look, I have to be the #1 most thrilled person in the entire world when it comes to the coaching change. People called to congratulate me like I'd accomplished something, they knew how much it meant to me.

I'm really happy to see how Vogel is running the rotations and what type of plays and style they are trying to run.

Everything is green grass and blue skies.


BUT...this was Toronto on the road, Cleveland on an epic losing streak, and Portland who was just in Portland playing on TUE, in Denver on WED, and then Indy today all while traveling through/behind one of the worst winter storms in a long time. Their star player wasn't out there and hasn't been for some time.


And the Pacers let these teams get back into games, to the point of risking what would have been a humiliating loss to the Cavs to halt their streak.

So while I'm all for the enthusiasm of Vogel and the good vibes of the change in general, this does not make this a good team or a drastically altered team. The coaching change was needed so they can START the process of learning to be a good team, and that carries the implication of a lot of rough terrain ahead of us.


You've got to temper your joy just a bit so you don't get washed out by the eventual hard losses to come. The focus of excitement shouldn't be on the wins, at least for us (vs the team I mean), but on the change in who you get to see play and how they play EVEN WHEN THEY LOSE.

I'll be much more interested to see the post game thread after that first loss, or 2nd loss even, when reality comes back and reminds everyone how we got here.

In other words, I don't think we can view this as some great playoff team that was just waiting to be unleashed. This is more like a batch of seeds that someone finally decided to put water and fertilizer on.

Don't get p****d when the mistakes by Price, George, Josh and Tyler cost them games. Don't get PO'd when Roy slumps it up or Collison is killing them. Don't get on the emotional rollercoaster of the W-L record which is tied closely to the whims of the schedule.

Even when these kids lose it will be attempting to play the right way with the right rotation.

I now return you to your :dance: and Vogel's viewings of :box:.

You gotta believe or no one else will. What I wanna know is why everyone wants to put these limitations on these youngsters? Where I come from we call those kind of people haters. They always want to tell you what you can't do.

Sometimes I feel like even if we had a young Russell Westbrook it wouldn't even matter. We would be too busy telling him he can't play point and over analyzing every turnover. Let the kids play and put them in position to succeed. Let's see what we have.

While you are busy playing it safe your opportunity passes you by.

DemonHunter1105
02-05-2011, 01:36 AM
This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but man I wish we could somehow acquire Aldridge. I just like the way he plays. He used to be too timid and soft in my eyes, but he has really shown how effective he can be especially since all the pressure is on him with so many other injuries to their team.

Slip him in at PF, bring Tyler off the bench, and then move Josh to backup center once Foster retires/gets traded.

But I can live with what we got right now :)

pacer4ever
02-05-2011, 01:38 AM
This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but man I wish we could somehow acquire Aldridge. I just like the way he plays. He used to be too timid and soft in my eyes, but he has really shown how effective he can be especially since all the pressure is on him with so many other injuries to their team.

Slip him in at PF, bring Tyler off the bench, and then move Josh to backup center once Foster retires/gets traded.

But I can live with what we got right now :)

If we had Lamarcus we would be a top 4 seed in the east

DemonHunter1105
02-05-2011, 01:40 AM
I don't really mean this, but I kind of wish their team had a worse record so they could then go into full rebuild mode and at least we would have a shot at getting him with all of our expirings/offer up some picks.

cdash
02-05-2011, 01:53 AM
If we had Lamarcus we would be a top 4 seed in the east

Over who? Boston, Miami, Chicago, Orlando, Atlanta? Which of those teams would we be better than?

pacer4ever
02-05-2011, 01:56 AM
Over who? Boston, Miami, Chicago, Orlando, Atlanta? Which of those teams would we be better than?

Atlanta with Vogels pd it in the post style that would be a perfect fit.

cdash
02-05-2011, 01:59 AM
Atlanta with Vogels pd it in the post style that would be a perfect fit.

Ehhh, not sure I agree with that, but it's possible. We would certainly have an extremely bright future.

Psyren
02-05-2011, 02:01 AM
As most have said, I'll live in the now.

I'm not going to let anyone rain on my parade with the "OMG these teams suck. You just wait" comments. (<-- Not anyone here on PD in particular. Just the general mood of some)

Yes, I will just wait. And when it gets bad, I'll worry about it then.

And as BlueNGold said, this team is playing the right way. If we lose, we lose. So be it. It's not fun, and I won't enjoy it, but I do enjoy watching them at least play the right way.

Better days are ahead.

DemonHunter1105
02-05-2011, 02:01 AM
I shouldn't have mentioned it, now all I am going to do is envision him in a Pacers uniform every time I see him lol.

RM31
02-05-2011, 02:18 AM
I still believe!

dewman_32
02-05-2011, 02:27 AM
I'm with Seth on this one. The coaching change is great and the overall philosophy is very welcome, but let's not get ahead of ourselves quite yet. There are still a lot of ballgames yet to be played and this is still a young team. Do I think we are headed in the right direction? Absolutely I do, but I'm also being realistic when I say that this team isn't going to turn into a power now that we've changed coaches.

So far I like what I am seeing out of Vogel and really like what I am hearing out of him. This could be the change that this team needed to start to turn the corner. I sure as hell don't want to see improvement that they can take into next season, I want to see improvement this season that they can take with them for seasons to come. I don't think that we stood a snowball's chance in hell of seeing with with O'Brien as the coach, but I also realize that it isn't going to be roses and rainbows the rest of the year either.

I understand everyone being pumped up about the last 3 games, and it is a perfectly understandable feeling after the past few years, but I also know that this isn't going to last forever either. It's not like they just beat the Heat, the Spurs and the Lakers to get to 3 straight wins. Now if that happens, I'm not only on the "Happy Bus", I'm driving the damn thing!

This is a start and it's a good one, but we still have a long way to go. I think we can pretty much all agree that we're better off now than we were a week ago. And that is something we can all be united on.

Go Pacers!

kester99
02-05-2011, 02:37 AM
Much (not all) of the team's poor showing in JOB's last couple of weeks could be described as schedule losses...just a long string of mostly quality opponents and road losses. The first two wins with Vogel, ditto...weak opponents. Tonight, I felt like these guys showed something, even though Portland on the road may not be the cream of competition, and the coach has already made more changes than I anticipated.

Let's see what happens in the next five games. There are some we should win, at least one we shouldn't and a couple against teams that have given us problems (the Bucks!) and with whom we're competing for the playoff spot. The next five will be a good test.

CableKC
02-05-2011, 02:37 AM
As I've said before, i dont mind if we sink or swim with the young players. I'm prepared for losses....as long as we are competing and playing the young players....I don't really care.

joeyd
02-05-2011, 02:37 AM
This is the first 3-game winning streak this season. We have had similar opportunities to run off such a streak against teams that we should have beaten, but during JOB's tenure this season, we could not. Now we can. This is the main difference and this is why I reserve the right to be ecstatic and hopeful that the team has turned the corner. I now expect the Pacers to beat the teams they are supposed to beat, more often than not, as opposed to vice versa under JOB.

pizza guy
02-05-2011, 02:44 AM
You've got to temper your joy just a bit

No.

The Pacers just won 3 games in a row. They have to temper their joy and get back to work. We, on the other hand, are supposed to enjoy the heck out of it while it lasts, then critique the troubles when they come.

As you said, back to the :dance: and Vogel Theater Presents :box:

spazzxb
02-05-2011, 05:18 AM
It takes more than 3 games to actually make a judgement about the future. however, I will say with confidence that the people(press) saying that none of the assistants were capable of taking over are being proven to be full of it. Its actually kinda sweet that the coach is an underdog himself.

Foul on Smits
02-05-2011, 06:27 AM
Frank needs to curb his enthusiasm

The 3 game winning streak is nice. Collison is extremely dangerous when you give him the keys to the Ferrari. Hibbert is getting back to the level he was playing at the beginning of the season and Granger has played as aggressive as i've ever seen him. Driving to the basket, getting free throws. It's all great to see.

But....

We've beaten the two worst teams in the league and a Blazer team without Marcus Camby and Brandon Roy.

Great job Frank, but lets see you get past this obvious letdown game against the Nets and then beat the Heat. If you can do that, then i'll start to buy. Beat the Heat.

I just think he's way too confident right now. No one wants to play Hansbrough? Come on. I can name 10 PF's in this league that would line up to play Tyler right now. Tyler has been great, but come on. Lets get realistic here.

This is going to be a process. I'm not going to go nuts about a 3 game winning streak and a 7 games under .500 record.

pacers74
02-05-2011, 06:37 AM
It doesn't matter who we beat, Frank still hasn't lost a game as head coach. He will probably lose one this week and then we will see how he bounces back from a loss.

This team will lose a lot more games this year, but I like where we are a lot more now than I did with JOB. We are now back in a tie for the 8th spot, but I would like it lot more if we were closer to .500 and in the 8th spot, but you take what you can get.

Isaac
02-05-2011, 06:55 AM
The main thing right now is that we are developing our youngins. We need to know what we have in Tyler, Paul and AJ right now. Obviously we aren't going to win a championship right this year but clearly playing Posey and Ford wasn't going to get us anywhere.

Also- we are seeing who Darren Collison really can be. Nobody in the world would deny that JOBs system was wrong for DC. Now we get to see who our PG of the future is...

Jetman
02-05-2011, 07:01 AM
Get ahead of ourselves? Who has? I think that what everyone that is blowing sunshine, as has been commented on, is that our new coach, is one of the few coaches in the league that seems to be a true fan. The difference is obvious, the results are logical, we knew this team was not as bad as what has been seen under the previous coach.
Nobody thinks that we are going undefeated the rest of the way

Truth and sincerity are easily identified and appreciated. To get the team to squeeze out a few wins over weak teams after a coaching change is not unheard of. But we see the rebounding, FT difference, attitude and style has all changed. That is what we are excited about.

We all know that tough games and losses are coming. We understand and accept that. But as we all love what we are seeing, we are anxious to see how this team with it's new identity reacts to the tests, that is why we say, BRING IT ON!!

Kstat
02-05-2011, 07:26 AM
Oh for the love of god, people. Are you that guarded that you can't just enjoy a brief winning streak? They basically conceeded the season by axing obie and going with vogul. May as well enjoy the good times while they're still good.

Roaming Gnome
02-05-2011, 08:46 AM
Oh for the love of god, people. Are you that guarded that you can't just enjoy a brief winning streak? They basically conceeded the season by axing obie and going with vogul. May as well enjoy the good times while they're still good.

No sh^t... I will enjoy Vogal's enthusiasm and our players lapping it up. Seems like too many of you are like Larry Brown, not happy unless you're absolutely miserable. Granted, it's a 3 game streak against the NBA's not so finest, but who cares... You don't get to circle wins on a schedule when you are a bad team yourself, so I will take our wins and be happy that we got them playing a better brand of basketball then the previous head coach employed!

Walking out of the Fieldhouse was nice after a win that didn't involve gimmicks and banking on the Pacers opponent living down to their limitations. I know I felt that our win over NJ last week was straight trash! A complete eye roller!!! There were some that were jubilant that we got a win, but that win felt cheap and I didn't think it was anything to build on going into that game in Chicago. Granted, these wins feel different to me eventhough they are against the NBA's version of the "Sister's of the poor". Maybe a 4 game winning streak going into a game against the Heat is something our players may take added pride in defending.

As for those saying Vogal needs to turn it down a few notches... WHY?! We've seen what 4 season's of doom and gloom, you're not good enough has gotten us! Maybe these guys will have a different reaction if the message is to the extreme in the opposite direction. Hell, when the losses come, that is enough downers in the punch as it is... Why add to it?

Let us enjoy, he is an interim coach after all.... I'm sure management will have plenty to judge when the season is finished. He's not going to get the job on beating the "Sisters of the poor", so lets stop being afraid management is going to hire him off these 3 wins.

owl
02-05-2011, 09:35 AM
Oh for the love of god, people. Are you that guarded that you can't just enjoy a brief winning streak? They basically conceeded the season by axing obie and going with vogul. May as well enjoy the good times while they're still good.

If the Pacers had kept OB the season would have been over with. With Vogel at least the Pacers will have a shot at the playoffs. I think you have it backwards. OB's style and
method were slowly but surely killing this team.

BlueNGold
02-05-2011, 09:53 AM
As I've said before, i dont mind if we sink or swim with the young players. I'm prepared for losses....as long as we are competing and playing the young players....I don't really care.

This.

The enthusiasm is not about the wins folks. It certainly doesn't hurt things.

The enthusiasm is about the change in style and what that is more likely to lead to than the last 3.5 years of no progress. Actually, the performance of this team has gotten progressively worse under Jim. From .430 to .430 to .390 to .386.

It simply wasn't working folks. Jim had more than enough time to make progress and he didn't get it done.

If Vogel comes close to .500...even .450...he will prove that he's coached better than Jim O'Brien has the last 3.5 years. .450 is all it will take.

Even if Vogel goes .400, who can blame the man? He hasn't even had this team in training camp.

So this is not at all about the victories even if there is some joy on that front. The Jim O'Brien supporters simply don't want to face the fact that his strategy never did work and wasn't going to work with the personnel on this team. He mismanaged things in the press and on the court in a very bad way.

MyFavMartin
02-05-2011, 10:01 AM
Naptown Seth:

http://ielstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/debbie_downer.jpg

The Rest of PD:

:tinfoil:

McKeyFan
02-05-2011, 10:01 AM
Sisters of the poor
:laugh:

cinotimz
02-05-2011, 10:35 AM
Damnit Seth let me be happy! At least until we get beat badly by Miami.

Based on the concerns Seth has now, can you imagine how things would be if we beat the Heat?

Immediate title contenders. Vogel coach of the year.

For me, its the same ole, same ole. After we win a game we consider how we will fare in the playoffs. When we lose we look to fire the coach and trade Granger. Things will likely return back to normal in the not-too-distant future.

Evan_The_Dude
02-05-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm confident in saying we wouldn't have a 3 game win streak going right now if O'Brien was still the coach. Our coach is a young guy that is basically auditioning for a job, and he's playing young guys that are trying to get better. They're all on the same page. Plus a coach with confidence in his team goes a long way.

idioteque
02-05-2011, 11:08 AM
Vogel coming in has really exposed this team for what it is: a bunch of young guys who are fairly talented but have little idea of how to play real basketball together on a consistent manner. JOB's system was really that atrocious.

If the team is a couple games above .500 for what will probably be Vogel's brief tenure here, then that's progress. If bringing in an interim coach alone can alter a team from being 10 games under .500 to a couple games over (I'm talking about respective tenures, not overall record) that shows how great this team could be in a couple of years after using some of our cap space and going into a couple of training camps with a coach that has a real basketball philosophy (maybe Vogel himself).

I'm trying to keep everything in that context. Yes, the wins are nice, but so was our 5 game winning streak two years ago and our November this season. Both turned out to be aberrations. I feel like if we play for the rest of the year like we did in November, with that intensity, with Brandon and Danny taking the ball to the basket consistently and the team running some actual plays, we'll be on the right track going forward. Of course that will involve some losses, and that's totally fine with me.

BlueNGold
02-05-2011, 11:25 AM
Vogel coming in has really exposed this team for what it is: a bunch of young guys who are fairly talented but have little idea of how to play real basketball together on a consistent manner. JOB's system was really that atrocious.

If the team is a couple games above .500 for what will probably be Vogel's brief tenure here, then that's progress. If bringing in an interim coach alone can alter a team from being 10 games under .500 to a couple games over (I'm talking about respective tenures, not overall record) that shows how great this team could be in a couple of years after using some of our cap space and going into a couple of training camps with a coach that has a real basketball philosophy (maybe Vogel himself).

I'm trying to keep everything in that context. Yes, the wins are nice, but so was our 5 game winning streak two years ago and our November this season. Both turned out to be aberrations. I feel like if we play for the rest of the year like we did in November, with that intensity, with Brandon and Danny taking the ball to the basket consistently and the team running some actual plays, we'll be on the right track going forward. Of course that will involve some losses, and that's totally fine with me.


Very good post, but I have one comment. The 5 game winning streak AND the November performances can be explained and have been many times on this board. Also, the 5 game win streak was just last season.

Now we have another win streak that can be explained. The good news is, there will be no need to do any more explaining with Jim out of the picture. The wins and losses will be evident.

idioteque
02-05-2011, 11:37 AM
Very good post, but I have one comment. The 5 game winning streak AND the November performances can be explained and have been many times on this board. Also, the 5 game win streak was just last season.

Now we have another win streak that can be explained. The good news is, there will be no need to do any more explaining with Jim out of the picture. The wins and losses will be evident.

Well, I do explain the 3 game streak largely in the same manner as to why I think the 5 game streak happened: bad opponents, although Portland is probably a .500 team in the West which says something.

I think this team will be exposed against better teams going forward as a young team still learning to play together. However, if they lose now it won't bother me as much since we're out of the JOB holding pattern and are actually IMPROVING in a sustainable manner that will serve this team better in the future. At least the losses are somewhat beneficial. The losses under JOB were so terrible because the team didn't learn from them at all.

odeez
02-05-2011, 11:54 AM
I agree you should never get too high or too low. But the life of a sports fan often doesn't follow this way of thinking. We love to get excited and imagine the glory that comes with winning. I am excited that JOB is gone and that the Pacers have one three in a row. But I do realize that the Pacers are still in the honeymoon faze. Vogel has been refreshing and he seems for now to be pushing the right buttons. What stands out to me is the freedom that the Pacers seem to be playing with. That being said we all know there is a lot to improve on and I am still hoping for a trade or two that will infuse the young talent we have with some establish talent.

We should use caution in our excitement and hope that the Pacers have turned that corner. JOB is gone and the freedom bell is ringing right now. Though caution and a realization that the reality will eventually come back around to remind us that we still need more talent. I will enjoy this start to a new era as moment of celebration and the hope that this team can finally restablish it's self as one of the top teams in the East. It's going to take more then beating two weak teams and Portland team that is missing one of their stars to really get excited. Let's give it ten games or so before we really see what we got. But by all means we should enjoy this and live in the moment.

Brad8888
02-05-2011, 12:14 PM
Seth

This is more like a batch of seeds that someone finally decided to put water and fertilizer on.

Also, so far at least, the ration of "fertilizer" that has been spread by Vogel seems to have decreased significantly compared to what we have seen for 3 1/2 years. Too much "fertilizer" being spread lead to one thing under O'Brien, and that was basically a big pile of "fertilizer"...

redfoster
02-05-2011, 12:23 PM
How can I unthank Seth and all the downers for their stupid *** posts telling us to not be happy our team is winning games?

Some of the people on this board are so freaking gloomy it makes me sick.

joeyd
02-05-2011, 12:23 PM
First, let me say that with Portland so injury-depleted and us playing at home, we should have won the game. That it was so one-sided at the end was surprising.

Now....the fact of the matter is that the 3 game streak is us beating the teams we were supposed to beat. I'll repeat what I posted earlier: we had the opportunity to do this earlier in the year under JOB and we did not do it. So...something has definitely changed.

Yes, we have blown decent leads in the last few games. But the difference is that we came back and won them all. So call it culture, call it the system, it doesn't matter. The proof is in the pudding. Something has changed for the better, and there is a good a chance that it will stick because physically and fundamentally at least, this is the same team.

PacersPride
02-05-2011, 02:14 PM
Look, I have to be the #1 most thrilled person in the entire world when it comes to the coaching change. People called to congratulate me like I'd accomplished something, they knew how much it meant to me.

I'm really happy to see how Vogel is running the rotations and what type of plays and style they are trying to run.

Everything is green grass and blue skies.


BUT...this was Toronto on the road, Cleveland on an epic losing streak, and Portland who was just in Portland playing on TUE, in Denver on WED, and then Indy today all while traveling through/behind one of the worst winter storms in a long time. Their star player wasn't out there and hasn't been for some time.


And the Pacers let these teams get back into games, to the point of risking what would have been a humiliating loss to the Cavs to halt their streak.

So while I'm all for the enthusiasm of Vogel and the good vibes of the change in general, this does not make this a good team or a drastically altered team. The coaching change was needed so they can START the process of learning to be a good team, and that carries the implication of a lot of rough terrain ahead of us.


You've got to temper your joy just a bit so you don't get washed out by the eventual hard losses to come. The focus of excitement shouldn't be on the wins, at least for us (vs the team I mean), but on the change in who you get to see play and how they play EVEN WHEN THEY LOSE.

I'll be much more interested to see the post game thread after that first loss, or 2nd loss even, when reality comes back and reminds everyone how we got here.

In other words, I don't think we can view this as some great playoff team that was just waiting to be unleashed. This is more like a batch of seeds that someone finally decided to put water and fertilizer on.

Don't get p****d when the mistakes by Price, George, Josh and Tyler cost them games. Don't get PO'd when Roy slumps it up or Collison is killing them. Don't get on the emotional rollercoaster of the W-L record which is tied closely to the whims of the schedule.

Even when these kids lose it will be attempting to play the right way with the right rotation.

I now return you to your :dance: and Vogel's viewings of :box:.

Very simply I believe Bird and coach Vogel when they state "this is a good basketball team."

However, expectations have to be tempered because our starting lineup has an average age of 24 im estimating, in fact the entire teams average age is likely 24.? With practically zero playoff experience.

Any Pacer fan of the early 90's knows the Blue & Gold did not become elite contenders right away, it was a process. If anyone recalls when this franchises playoff relevance began it was the series vs. Boston in 91?. Chuck Person was on fire, Bird walked out of the lockerroom and helped the Celtics win best 3 of 5 game five.

Then the Orlando Byron Scott 3 pointer at the buzzer allowing us to advance to the second round.

I see this team right now as the early 90's edition somewhat. Hopefully we get in this season and give a squad like Boston, Miami a challenge.

LA_Confidential
02-05-2011, 02:22 PM
I think that everyone, well almost everyone, is expecting mistakes from the young guys. Its the bounce back from the mistakes that we are all worried about. How well they bounce back from the last second losses, as well as the blowout losses is what this youth move is all about. Learning how to win and how to bounce back from losses.

flox
02-05-2011, 04:53 PM
I'm just enjoying the vacation and watching the Pacers win. This is an exciting time to be a Pacers fan and watch some sorely needed wins.

While I agree with the call to temper enthusiasm- we needed this. I think its a good idea to remind us that we can win. But I'm not taking too much from it.

BlueNGold
02-05-2011, 05:27 PM
I'm just enjoying the vacation and watching the Pacers win. This is an exciting time to be a Pacers fan and watch some sorely needed wins.

While I agree with the call to temper enthusiasm- we needed this. I think its a good idea to remind us that we can win. But I'm not taking too much from it.

:eek: So you are Jim O'Brien.

Each day things start to make more sense...;)

Naptown_Seth
02-05-2011, 05:39 PM
Damnit Seth let me be happy! At least until we get beat badly by Miami.
And you know what, you never know. I'm not saying they won't win those games.

But so far the quality of play has been pretty rough. The strategic change is great, but the kids aren't always killing it. I want Price to really be a great backup, but last night he wasn't. I want Josh to be the 100% trust him PF for 25-30mpg, but he was a bit off that last night. And Roy, as great a person as he is, is still finding his way out of the slump.

My response was more of "okay, well there are some positive signs here and some problems, but at least I get to see both of those because it's the right players trying to run the right strategy".


If it starts to really click and the consistency shows up, then some big wins...well that will be the ride I've been waiting to take for 3 years now. I believe in the talent, I think most would cite me as one of the top fans of Rush, Josh, Roy and Price based on my comments the last 2-3 years. I've said I want to see Tyler have a shot to prove me wrong and I've said that at times he sorta has.

I'm ready for the ride, I just feel like the real ride, the payoff for all the development ride like the Thunder are now on, is still a full year away. I don't mean after they get that missing guy even, I just mean that point when the kids that are here now understand the game and play instinctively together. That is on the way, but in nearly all cases it takes time.



I feel bad because honestly you guys coming with the "hey, I've waited a long time to enjoy this" angle have a strong point too. I'm not trying to ruin that. It's just my nature to take the "middle" view on the way up or down.

Those future losses won't be the end of the world either and I'm sure I'll post just that in those game threads when they arrive.

Naptown_Seth
02-05-2011, 05:51 PM
This.

The enthusiasm is not about the wins folks. It certainly doesn't hurt things.

The enthusiasm is about the change in style and what that is more likely to lead to than the last 3.5 years of no progress.
Exactly.

I'm hearing all this talk focusing on the wins and I'm not drinking that kool-aid.

I AM drinking (heck, I'm handing it out) the kool-aid on the change in strategy, rotation and plays. This is more about shifting focus back to what we should be joyful about - the rotation.

They won? Who cares, and ditto after they lose. Just make sure AJ, Paul, Tyler, Josh and Roy truly stop being rookies or young kids before next season.

I left Conseco happy, it's just that the score had nothing to do with it. I've been waiting so long to see someone believe in the idea of Josh-Tyler-Roy, and Price off the bench, and Paul getting lots of wing minutes that I often couldn't tell you the score.

Sookie
02-05-2011, 05:53 PM
And you know what, you never know. I'm not saying they won't win those games.

But so far the quality of play has been pretty rough. The strategic change is great, but the kids aren't always killing it. I want Price to really be a great backup, but last night he wasn't. I want Josh to be the 100% trust him PF for 25-30mpg, but he was a bit off that last night. And Roy, as great a person as he is, is still finding his way out of the slump.

My response was more of "okay, well there are some positive signs here and some problems, but at least I get to see both of those because it's the right players trying to run the right strategy".


If it starts to really click and the consistency shows up, then some big wins...well that will be the ride I've been waiting to take for 3 years now. I believe in the talent, I think most would cite me as one of the top fans of Rush, Josh, Roy and Price based on my comments the last 2-3 years. I've said I want to see Tyler have a shot to prove me wrong and I've said that at times he sorta has.

I'm ready for the ride, I just feel like the real ride, the payoff for all the development ride like the Thunder are now on, is still a full year away. I don't mean after they get that missing guy even, I just mean that point when the kids that are here now understand the game and play instinctively together. That is on the way, but in nearly all cases it takes time.



I feel bad because honestly you guys coming with the "hey, I've waited a long time to enjoy this" angle have a strong point too. I'm not trying to ruin that. It's just my nature to take the "middle" view on the way up or down.

Those future losses won't be the end of the world either and I'm sure I'll post just that in those game threads when they arrive.

Here's the thing about "the kids"

because they are kids, you just don't know what they are going to do for you.

The fun is watching them grow..and realizing they are going to struggle..but also realizing they are going to excell some too.

I think another important thing to remember is that Vogel is a "kid" too. He, to me, seems like he's got potential to be a good coach. But tomorrow's going to be his fourth games. He is going to make mistakes. (Although to be honest, I don't think he's made many so far) But I'm willing to let him grow too.

So quite frankly, blowing out the Heat..or getting blown out by the Heat..either scenario could happen. I just want to watch the younger guys improve for the rest of the season. That is fun. And I hope they can sneak into the playoffs because that experience will be good for them too.

McKeyFan
02-05-2011, 05:59 PM
I think a big Vogel test will be whether he can keep the team focused on New Jersey tomorrow instead of looking ahead to Miami.

flox
02-05-2011, 07:07 PM
:eek: So you are Jim O'Brien.

Each day things start to make more sense...;)

haha I meant vacation from my normal life. but yeah, I totally missed that lol.

kester99
02-05-2011, 07:17 PM
Hey, I just saw a Portland site...Rip City Project...that referred to us as "the middling Pacers."

Huh? Middling!

How about that? There's no stopping us now!

Naptown_Seth
02-08-2011, 10:25 PM
F*** IT!

PEDDLE DOWN AND ROLL ON!

w00t
:dance: