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BPump33
02-03-2011, 10:42 PM
I really like this guy...

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/crate.html

I didn't see this posted. If it is, then I apologize.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 10:55 PM
I want to play basketball for coach Vogel. :p

pacer4ever
02-03-2011, 10:58 PM
I loved every thing he said expect "Posey one of the all time great role players" He was a really good role player in his prime not all time great. but now he is a bench warmer who is "irrelevant" i hope.

I hope i can cross Posey off my sig after getting a few more DNPs

Day-V
02-03-2011, 10:58 PM
How can you not love this guy?

Pacersalltheway10
02-03-2011, 11:33 PM
He is to Indiana Pacers fans as what Brad Stevens is to Butler fans. you gotta love 'em.

Trophy
02-03-2011, 11:33 PM
Man, we had hidden talent on our bench this whole time.

He's a cool guy, but pushes his players in a calm, comfortable way.

I knew he'd make a great head coach for this team.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 11:52 PM
Before some of you vote him into the coaching Hall of Fame, take a deep breath and realize the way a coach is in the media does not prove he is a great coach, or a terrible coach or an average coach. He's coached two games.

Day-V
02-04-2011, 12:01 AM
Before some of you vote him into the coaching Hall of Fame, take a deep breath and realize the way a coach is in the media does not prove he is a great coach, or a terrible coach or an average coach. He's coached two games.



And there it is, Tropical Storm Buck O'Brien, pouring down on our Pacers Championship Parade.




:laugh: Nah, just messing with you UB. You're absolutely right. It's been 2 games. The guy very well could turn out to be a coach that's just not very good. And while my brain is telling me to take it easy on the expectations, which really deep down I know we'll be lucky to get a playoff spot, let alone back to .500, the insane, illogical fan part of me thinks this guy is the next John Wooden. And I'm riding that gravy train for as long as I can. Who knows? Maybe my insane, illogical fan side will be right for once? :pray:

xBulletproof
02-04-2011, 12:03 AM
Before some of you vote him into the coaching Hall of Fame, take a deep breath and realize the way a coach is in the media does not prove he is a great coach, or a terrible coach or an average coach. He's coached two games.

I'm sorry, but I find the turn of events hilarious. You go from defending O'Brien all the time, to immediately trying to drag people down on Vogel.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or meaning it in a bad way, I just find the contrasting tone of posts about the Pacers coach from you to be humorous. I'm so used to seeing you defend the Pacers coach it strikes me as odd. :laugh:

Unclebuck
02-04-2011, 12:14 AM
I'm sorry, but I find the turn of events hilarious. You go from defending O'Brien all the time, to immediately trying to drag people down on Vogel.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or meaning it in a bad way, I just find the contrasting tone of posts about the Pacers coach from you to be humorous. I'm so used to seeing you defend the Pacers coach it strikes me as odd. :laugh:

I'm not doing anything differently than I ever do.

If someone would make a highly negative post about Frank Vogel I would I would make a post telling that person to take a deep breath, he's not that bad he's coached two games. We don't know yet.

Not trying to drag people down, but I am hoping a little time is waited before we say stuff like "I knew he would be a great coach" or "I knew he would be a bad coach"

gummy
02-04-2011, 12:34 AM
Oh, UB, let them have a few small rays of sunshine between arguments. ;)

I don't have any particular expectations about Coach V yet - we just haven't seen him on the job enough, and he hasn't had to make any really tough decisions. I'll feel more comfortable forming some conclusions about his abilities and impact on the team in another 8-10 games.

As far as what we can glean via the media, I have appreciated Coach Vogel's positive and confident tone. He is perhaps a little overly effusive at times but I think our team could really benefit from that after O'Brien's contrasting style. His comments (so far, and yes I know it's early and this could change) sync up to his actions in a way I find refreshing too.

I think most realize it's way too early to really know what we have in Coach Vogel, but are so happy about the changes they've seen early on that they are encouraged, excited, or engaged in way that they haven't been with the Pacers in awhile. After so much frustration and negativity you're going to see some swinging to the other extreme and there's going to be some giddy hyperbole.

That said, I've been in most of the new threads threads since Vogel assumed the head coaching position and while there is definitely a lot of praise I also see a number of caveats like the ones I've offered, some criticism of the team's performance, even some questioning of coaching decisions in the game thread. But your "Before some of you vote him into the coaching Hall of Fame..." comment makes it sound all that's going on in these threads is unvarnished sunshine and I don't think that's fair characterization of it. Perhaps that isn't what you mean to imply, but that's how I read it.

P.S., UB, don't you ever get tired of tilting away at the extremes? The "What does everyone expect tomorrow?" thread has plenty of middle of the road, non-antagonistic questions like "Do you expect much improvement, if any, after the allstar break?" and you'll see that many of us are anticipating a loss, it's not all sunshine, and the reply button really does work on posts of people with more nuanced positions on things. :)

Heisenberg
02-04-2011, 03:49 AM
Mr. Boyle's jacket's pretty friggin sweet, does Home Court have it?

Indra
02-04-2011, 05:35 AM
I'm not going to go one extreme or the other, but Vogel is saying all the right things, he's backing up what he says with his decisions on the court, he's the kind of positive force that this team really needs right now, and he's doing all of the things that the arm-chair coaches have been clamouring for since 2008. I think the fate of this team truly rests in the hands of the players at this point. I think he's good enough of a coach to allow the best players to play, to play with a little freedom, and see what comes of it. It's an exciting time to be a Pacers fan!

pacerfreak
02-04-2011, 06:01 AM
Anyone find it interesting that this crate episode seem to take a little jab at some one with the rotation, and dnp, bit at the beginning of the crate? I thought that to be pretty funny.:laugh:

Doddage
02-04-2011, 06:26 AM
I'm sorry, but I find the turn of events hilarious. You go from defending O'Brien all the time, to immediately trying to drag people down on Vogel.
I didn't get that vibe from UB. Sure, he's defended O'Brien before (not that that's relevant here anyway), but right now he's just trying to put all the Vogel love into perspective. So far, we've only seen that he can speak well and defeat the Raptors and Cavs. That isn't enough to judge him upon at this point.

The Jackson shimmy
02-04-2011, 06:59 AM
Some threads on PD just make me shake my head....

Uncle Buck- Well said.

And btw, that's 2-0 'at home' vs a couple teams that absolutely
suck.

Psyren
02-04-2011, 07:56 AM
The wins (albeit against bad teams) are nice, but my main thing isn't just that he can speak.

He backs up his actions. That's really all I've asked for in the past with JOB. If our players suck, then so be it. I can live with that.

I'm not going to call Vogel the best coach ever or worst coach ever. I just have a strong liking for the guy just because he's a man of his word and can actually back up what he says.

Putting the right guys on the floor for the right situations, and letting whoever is hot finish the game for you says a whole lot to me.

I guess I just got so used to the head games with JOB, that Vogel is such a breath of fresh air.

spazzxb
02-04-2011, 08:13 AM
and he's doing all of the things that the arm-chair coaches have been clamoring for since 2008.

Dunleavy is starting, Foster is playing and TJ and Posey are still active. In 2008 the a lot of the arm chair QB's didn't want Mcroberts around (he definitely had his fans as well), Roy and Rush were rookies, and the rest of our youth were still in college, or High School. Enjoy the fresh air but be realistic.

HOOPFANATIC
02-04-2011, 08:23 AM
UB is fair in saying that Coach Vogel needs a few more wins before we annoint him. I personally will even venture to wait until the end of the season before I decide if he is a keeper. It's obvious the players like him, and it's also obvious that he's probably either been on here, or at least talked to people who have, cause he doesn't sound like the Obrien disciple we all know him to be. I'm just trying to keep it real, but it looks like Uncle Bucks post showed me what happens when keeping it real goes wrong.

BPump33
02-04-2011, 09:23 AM
Some threads on PD just make me shake my head....

Uncle Buck- Well said.

And btw, that's 2-0 'at home' vs a couple teams that absolutely
suck.

The last game was in Cleveland.

McKeyFan
02-04-2011, 09:38 AM
You know, Daniel Boone used his bare hands to kill a bear when he was three. But, actually, he had molasses all over his hands, making it more sticky, so it wasn't like using his completely bare hands.

And, sure, George Washington confessed to chopping down that cherry tree. But his brother saw him do it, so he sort of HAD to say the honest thing. It was no particular precedent for the future.

Pacersalltheway10
02-04-2011, 10:02 AM
Dunleavy is starting, Foster is playing and TJ and Posey are still active. In 2008 the a lot of the arm chair QB's didn't want Mcroberts around (he definitely had his fans as well), Roy and Rush were rookies, and the rest of our youth were still in college, or High School. Enjoy the fresh air but be realistic.

They have to dress twelve players a game. the inactives are Lance, solo, and rush. rush is injured right now. We do not want solo to play. Once rush comes back and Lance is ready. Posey and TJ will be the ones inactive. Process of elimination.

diamonddave00
02-04-2011, 10:03 AM
I'm with Buck on this one beating 2 bad teams and charming fans and media means nothing long term. Lets see how the rest of the season plays out before making a decision on his coaching future here.

Anyone would have been a brreathe of fresh air after Jim O'Brien . I'm far from sold on Vogel lets just be happy the early results are favorable but not get carried away quite yet.

DGPR
02-04-2011, 11:40 AM
I would venture to say that his real test isn't going to come until this team is in the playoffs in a few months. If Vogel takes this team to the playoffs and they are at least competitive by winning a game or two then I would bring him back on a 2 or 3 year contract as head coach.

PacersPride
02-04-2011, 12:00 PM
I like Vogel and think he will be a solid coach someday, but do not expect him to return next season.

If the team can start playing similar to how they played earlier in the year, I will be very pleased with Vogel, and he should at least get an interview for the position.

As Vogel stated, this is a very good basketball team. Most on here were believing this as well when we beat the Lakers in LA, and the run to begin the season. I fully expect the team to begin playing with the same type of success it had in Nov. Vogel can take all the credit, but it will likely have more to do with Obrien no longer being the coach.

I fully expect the pacers to make the playoffs, which seemed like a given after the great start to the season.

NuffSaid
02-04-2011, 12:40 PM
Alittle perspective here...

Most teams do have a complete attitude adjustment with a new coach, interim or otherwise. The reason for that is pretty obvious: the pressure's off!

In most cases, the players on a losing team usually believe their coach hasn't put them in the best position to win. Yes, it is the players who go out on the court and play the game, but we tend to forget that basketball in some ways is like a game of chess; you're always moving various pieces around the board (player rotations) trying out different moves (plays), always attempting to position your players just so in order to win (making those offensive and defensive adjustments). It's never easy, but the coach who makes the right moves (adjustments) at the right time usually end up winning the game.

As for the players themselves, they have to buy into the coach's philosophy. So, what's Vogel's?

He seems to see old school basketball through new school eyes. He understands that the fundamental aspects of the game haven't changed. You still need a PG who understands the game, understands his own strengths and weaknesses, and understands what his teammates can and can't do. His teammates must also understand the game and their own capabilities. The key to victory has always been the head coach - his coaching philosophy. I believe Vogel undestands that the way the game is played now is different from how the game was played some 10-20 years ago. The game is faster, players are more athletic, they're longer, leaner at most positions, but at the "power" positions - Center and PF - players are stronger and more agile than they use to be. The biggest difference, IMO, is that many more players are able to improvise more, create off the dribble with alot more finesse than in year's past. It began with Dr. J, migrated to the "Showtime" era of Bird, Jordan and Magic, and now there's (physical) power, (mental and physical) toughness and finesse infused with players like Kobe, LeBron and D-wade. We're starting to see these same traits in up-and-coming players like Kevin Durant, Kevin Love and Blake Griffin.

Frank Vogel is a very encouraging coach. He takes the time to get to know his players and encourages them to think differently about themselves and the game. But more important, he delegates! He empowers his players at every position to take ownership of their roles whatever it may be - anchoring the defense from Center, orchestrating the offense at PG, rebounding and shot blocking from PF, working in tandum between PG and Center/PG and PF/SG and Center to execute PnR or Give-N-Go plays. In effect, he tells his players, "Don't just rely on me to draw up a play in the huddle; go out there and execute it like I know you can, but don't hang your heads if the play doesn't work. You, (insert PG here) have the go-ahead to change the play if you see something different based on what the defense gives you. Above all, win or lose, never stop loving the game and have fun out there!" So far, they've gone out there and just got the job done. The pressure's off. No longer is every situation a "must-win". But there's also this...

Guys are playing much more relaxed now and a big part of that is everyone knows exactly what their roles are. It can't get any simpler than that really. No longer are players being shuffled around from one position to the next on the fly. If you're a PF, you're only going to play from the PF position. If your'e a PG, you're only going to play from the PG position. Not once in the two games Vogel has coached have I seen players plugged into positions they don't normally play, i.e., AJ Price at SG instead of PG, Granger at PF, Hans at Center. If it has happened, Vogel has disguised it very well, and if that has been the case even sparingly, it shows Vogel's smarts because in effect he has made the necessary "adjustments" at key moments during the game which is very critical to any team's success.

Vogel has played to this team's strengths, but in doing so he has done two things which I've always believed both coach Carlisle and certainly coach O'Brien did wrong during their tenure here: they telegraphed their intensions to their opponent before the game even started by switching their starting lineups and rotations so frequently. This goes back to the point I made earlier concerning players being swapped around so much they don't fully understand their roles. I fully understand JOB trying to find the "perfect mix" of players out there who would get us scoring, rebounding, defense, ball movement, etc., especially when the numbers show weaknesses in one or two important areas, but the problem such frequent lineup changes present (with a healthy team, mind you) is it breeds unfamiliarity among the players. Granger, Hansborough, Hibbert, Collison, Dunleavy and McRoberts have all complained about this since JOB was released. But now look at how well this team is performing using the exact same starting five JOB has utilitzed for nearly 1/4 of the season? But it's not just using a group of players who have shown themselves very capable of working well together. It's also about knowing that when their "support players" are rotated in that they will hold things together until the starting unit returns. It's about building trust from players 1-10 (or 15). Frank Vogel has done that while also staying humble. He's also been very honest with this team. I think that above all is what these players have wanted all along....honestly and someone with the willingness to allow them to play to their strengths, have fun, make mistakes and correct their errors on their own (for the most part), and just love the game again and play the right way.

The rest of the season should be very fun to watch for this Pacers' team. I, for one, am loving it! As I'm sure the Pacers are as well.

(Okay, so it was alot of perspective...:p)

Hicks
02-04-2011, 01:01 PM
You know, Daniel Boone used his bare hands to kill a bear when he was three. But, actually, he had molasses all over his hands, making it more sticky, so it wasn't like using his completely bare hands.

And, sure, George Washington confessed to chopping down that cherry tree. But his brother saw him do it, so he sort of HAD to say the honest thing. It was no particular precedent for the future.


I thought it was Davy Crockett who 'Killed him a b'ar when he was only three' ?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QAVN_n0PljQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sookie
02-04-2011, 01:42 PM
I think, what people who supported Obie didn't understand, and still don't understand...is that our distaste for him was never about the wins or losses. It was about the stupid decisions. The Danny ISO, the rotations, the playing the guys out of position, the playing the vets at all costs.. We're not stupid, we know 9 out of 10 times this team can't beat the Spurs/Celtics/Lakers ect even if O'brien coached a perfect game. Talking about wins and losses is moot.

I don't have a positive opinion (so far) about Vogel because of the two wins. Once again, I know they were crappy teams..and in fact I know our team didn't exactly play that fantastic (although they had some very good moments.)

My opinion is positive because he's allowing Darren to be Darren. He's playing the players that should play. His subsitutions are seamless, we actually ran a good play at the end of the game (1-3 PnR) What he says to the Indystar sounds good, and we actually see him implement it. That's why I'm positive about Vogel so far.

Peck
02-04-2011, 01:57 PM
BTW guys don't for a minute think that the Pacers front office & P.R. staff didn't know what the majority of fans thought about O'Brien down towards the end.

That being said I have no doubt that the P.R. staff had a talk with Vogel prior to his first press conf. letting him know that being up beat, positive towards the players and confident were of the highest importance.

Now it simply may have been them saying, "be yourself" and he is running with it. But I can assure you that steps were taken so that he wouldn't be O'Brien.

While I often disagree with U.B. over the coaching ranks in this case he is expressing wise words of wisdom. At this point in time Vogel is not O'Brien and that in and of itself is making him almost God like around here. But in truth we have no real idea what his offense or defense will look much like, however we have seen his rotations. Now if they are his or if Bird gave marching orders we'll never know for sure but either way it is just much better than what we have seen the previous three years.

Unclebuck
02-04-2011, 02:22 PM
I think, what people who supported Obie didn't understand, and still don't understand...is that our distaste for him was never about the wins or losses. It was about the stupid decisions. The Danny ISO, the rotations, the playing the guys out of position, the playing the vets at all costs.. We're not stupid, we know 9 out of 10 times this team can't beat the Spurs/Celtics/Lakers ect even if O'brien coached a perfect game. Talking about wins and losses is moot.



I understand your point about most not criticizing Jim because of the won/loss record. Although it is certainly a factor. if Jim ghad been doing the exact same things as far as how he was caoching and yet the team was 10 games over .500 and seemingly onto 50 wins, then I guarantee the whole demeanor of most Pacers fans would be fine with Jim's method.




The Danny ISO , the rotations, the playing the guys out of position, the playing the vets at all costs

Rotations and playing some of the guys out of positions OK, I'll give you those things. But the Danny Iso? if you are referring to what I think you are in the last game against the Cavs the Pacers ran the Danny iso more than in any game they have this seasion.
I also disagree with the notion that Jim played the vets at all costs. I don't think that is true by an objective measure.

BPump33
02-04-2011, 02:26 PM
Ric Bucher chat:

Bryon (Indy)

Do you see the Pacers making the playoffs?

Ric Bucher (1:25 PM)

No. I don't know Frank Vogel, but I don't see him leading a revival. And I'm just not sold on their talent.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/36784

Sookie
02-04-2011, 02:39 PM
I understand your point about most not criticizing Jim because of the won/loss record. Although it is certainly a factor. if Jim ghad been doing the exact same things as far as how he was caoching and yet the team was 10 games over .500 and seemingly onto 50 wins, then I guarantee the whole demeanor of most Pacers fans would be fine with Jim's method.




Rotations and playing some of the guys out of positions OK, I'll give you those things. But the Danny Iso? if you are referring to what I think you are in the last game against the Cavs the Pacers ran the Danny iso more than in any game they have this seasion.
I also disagree with the notion that Jim played the vets at all costs. I don't think that is true by an objective measure.

We played TJ, Dun, Foster, and Posey all excessive minutes. Thing is, this team doesn't have a lot of vets, but all of them played way too many minutes. (Although Foster and Dun weren't bad, Paul George and Roy..despite his struggles, should have been getting those minutes.)

The Danny/TJ/Darren ISO as an end of game play. I know Danny drove to the basket and excessive amount in Cleveland. I think that was a problem with our offense because he's just not good at it. But at the end of the game, when we needed a basket, we had the best end of game play we've had all year.

As for winning. This team wasn't going to be ten games over .500 unless we played the young guys and they were better than we thought. Which JOB wasn't going to do. Because Posey/Ford/Foster/Dun don't get you 10 games over .500.

McKeyFan
02-04-2011, 02:42 PM
I thought it was Davy Crockett who 'Killed him a b'ar when he was only three' ?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QAVN_n0PljQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I think they both had that legend attached to them.

Neither of them amounted to much.


;)

Pacemaker
02-05-2011, 12:22 AM
Mr. Boyle's jacket's pretty friggin sweet, does Home Court have it?

I'm interested in buying that jacket also ... does anyone knows where to find it? Help please!

NuffSaid
02-05-2011, 08:10 AM
Frank Vogel, first time head coach, youngest head coach in the NBA today, takes a sub .500 ball club that has been under achieving all year and gets them to "earn" their first 3-game winning streak. How did he do it? Like this:


Frank Vogel is a very encouraging coach. He takes the time to get to know his players and encourages them to think differently about themselves and the game. But more important, he delegates! He empowers his players at every position to take ownership of their roles whatever it may be...

...towit...

Quotes from Collison and Hibbert after last night's win:



Darren Collison

–”I feel like we didn’t really believe in ourselves (earlier in the season) and now we’re starting to believe we can come together as a team and win ball games,” Collison said.


Roy Hibbert

-“We’re playing together,” Hibbert said. “We’re close knit. We’re allowed to make changes and adjustments in the game. Coach will ask for our advice in timeouts.”

Again, alittle perspective...all three wins have come against teams either with worse records or a Portland team that's plagued with injuries and has been struggling of late, but I say Vogel stepped into his head coaching job at the right time. The Pacers needed to take these "baby steps" to build individual and team confidence as well as to hon their skills and see what they can really do. They're still making mistakes, but I think had this young group been allowed to make mistakes and correct them on their own, we'd be seeing a much more polished group out there. They have the talent. I honestly believe they're a much better team than their record indicates.