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View Full Version : Point Guard's will get more freedom



Sookie
02-03-2011, 01:13 PM
Extremely good move on Vogel's part, I think. I said for a while, Collison's a specialty point guard. Put him in the right system, and he'll look extremely good. Price can fit in wherever, so do what's best for Collison. (So long as it works with other players.)


Their main objective is to push the tempo, set up the pick-and-roll if they can't get a transition basket, look for Roy Hibbert in the post and run screens to get the wing players open.


http://www.indystar.com/article/20110203/SPORTS04/102030406/Vogel-says-Pacers-point-guards-will-get-more-freedom

"Meat and potatoes style offense" I like it. It'll help grow both Collison and Price by giving them a bigger role.

And and and..running screens to get the wing players open...YES!

Hopefully he doesn't have JOB's traits of saying one thing and doing the opposite. I don't think so though, as I saw both of our PGs having much more control over the offense last game.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 01:19 PM
I think Frank Vogel participates here or something; He's an extension of the average poster here.

PacerPenguins
02-03-2011, 01:24 PM
wat if one of us is secretly frank vogel? and hes just listening to us to help this team solve its problems?

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 01:27 PM
wat if one of us is secretly frank vogel? and hes just listening to us to help this team solve its problems?

I think you're Frank Vogel. :hmm:

vnzla81
02-03-2011, 01:29 PM
Yep I got to see that they had some screen plays for Danny last night, it looks like he is getting used to it because he is missed the shots.

ilive4sports
02-03-2011, 01:29 PM
I think you're Frank Vogel. :hmm:

I think you're Frank Vogel!:hmm:

I am very happy to read this as I have wanted it for so long. Especially setting screens for our wing guys. We need to run more for Danny so he gets better looks.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 01:36 PM
It's definitely refreshing.

pacer4ever
02-03-2011, 02:06 PM
PnR is Lance's stregth put him in coach

Peck
02-03-2011, 02:07 PM
What kind of nonesense is this. Point guards actually running an offense? Plays being called and executed?

Where is the motion? Where is the stretching of the floor?

How can expect to win a single game if our big men can not draw the other teams big men out to the three point line to open up driving lanes for our ever slashing wing players?

Centers and power forwards actually setting up in the low post and elbow area?

I'm offended so much that I don't know if I'll ever watch again.;)

Day-V
02-03-2011, 02:16 PM
What kind of nonesense is this. Point guards actually running an offense? Plays being called and executed?

Where is the motion? Where is the stretching of the floor?

How can expect to win a single game if our big men can not draw the other teams big men out to the three point line to open up driving lanes for our ever slashing wing players?

Centers and power forwards actually setting up in the low post and elbow area?

I'm offended so much that I don't know if I'll ever watch again.;)

Blasphemy, I tell ya.

vnzla81
02-03-2011, 02:18 PM
What kind of nonesense is this. Point guards actually running an offense? Plays being called and executed?

Where is the motion? Where is the stretching of the floor?

How can expect to win a single game if our big men can not draw the other teams big men out to the three point line to open up driving lanes for our ever slashing wing players?

Centers and power forwards actually setting up in the low post and elbow area?

I'm offended so much that I don't know if I'll ever watch again.;)

And they are also doing it with the young players? what? Fire this clown...........:D

Trophy
02-03-2011, 02:29 PM
That's how DC is going to be good and effective.

He played really well last night and had 9 assists.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 02:36 PM
The question was never whether Darren would be more effective in a heavy pick and roll offense. Even Jim O'brien said he would. The question is whether going to a heavy pick and roll offense would make the Pacers team more effective and isn't that the bottomline. A coach always has to balance making certain players more effective vs making the team more effective. Obviously the two can be one in the same, but not always.

pizza guy
02-03-2011, 02:38 PM
Looking back at DC's days in New Orleans, it's pretty obvious that he's going to do better in a system that allows him the opportunity to run the show. Remember when we made the trade and we were all ecstatic about his 18pt/9ast average when starting in CP3's place? And last night he goes for 22/9 after being given control in our system...I don't think it's a coincidence. The guy is gonna be an All-Star. If he can improve his defense and limit turnovers as he ages and learns, we're looking at a top 5 point guard, IMO.

MarvelousMarvin
02-03-2011, 02:38 PM
The question was never whether Darren would be more effective in a heavy pick and roll offense. Even Jim O'brien said he would. The question is whether going to a heavy pick and roll offense would make the Pacers team more effective and isn't that the bottomline. A coach always has to balance making certain players more effective vs making the team more effective. Obviously the two can be one in the same, but not always.

it has favored roy, josh, darren, aj, and even dun since he has shots created for him. danny is the only one who has struggled so far but i think that his shot % will go up since he will be taking less shots and taking more open shots.

Day-V
02-03-2011, 02:39 PM
Granted, it's only been 2 games, but we've averaged 110 points with the new changes. It's very encouraging at least.



And I think last night was Darren's best game as a Pacer.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 02:40 PM
The question was never whether Darren would be more effective in a heavy pick and roll offense. Even Jim O'brien said he would. The question is whether going to a heavy pick and roll offense would make the Pacers team more effective and isn't that the bottomline. A coach always has to balance making certain players more effective vs making the team more effective. Obviously the two can be one in the same, but not always.

I agree. I don't think it's Darren's fault that the PnR offense might not be the best all of the time; I think it's because our power forwards are "Garbage men" that get points off of broken plays and off of offensive rebounds and not players that get their points by creating themselves or by PnR.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 02:41 PM
Cavs and Raptors are two of the worst defensive teams in the NBA, maybe the two worst. So while it has looked good. All season long the Pacers offense has looked pretty good against terrible defense. Remember the Nuggets game and a few others where the pacers offense really got going.

and for the record: my problem wasn't that we didn't run enough pick and rolls, but rather our execution when we did run them was generally not good. if Vogel can improve the execution then we may be on to something

pizza guy
02-03-2011, 02:42 PM
The question was never whether Darren would be more effective in a heavy pick and roll offense. Even Jim O'brien said he would. The question is whether going to a heavy pick and roll offense would make the Pacers team more effective and isn't that the bottomline. A coach always has to balance making certain players more effective vs making the team more effective. Obviously the two can be one in the same, but not always.

This is a good point. JOB's offense was great for Troy Murphy, but Murphy was awful for the success of the team. The difference here is that DC is actually a good player, and his skillset is one that makes others better (see: 9 assists).

Young
02-03-2011, 03:28 PM
Overall I like what i've seen from Vogel or at least what he says. However UB makes a great point that has been overlooked, the Raptors and Cavs are two of the worst defensive teams in the entire league. If you take that into account the win vs Cleveland was even less impressive. They struggled against a bad team.

One thing we have to remember through all of this is that this Pacer team is very young and they will struggle. Leads will continue to be blown regardless of who is on the sideline. Remember back in 2002 (I think that was the year) when the Pacers took the Nets (#1 Seed) to Game 5 in the first round and nearly won that deciding game? They barely made the playoffs that year. There were A LOT of struggles. If my memory serves me correct it was the following year that the Pacers got off to a great start (IT coached in the All-Star Game) but imploded in the second half of the season? Those were really young teams and those were growing pains.

I think it's very similar with this group. They are experiencing some growing pains and regardless of who is on the sidelines they will have them this year. I'm not saying i'm not happy that Vogel replaced O'Brien. I just don't think we should get too high or too low on Vogel from the results of these games.

There will be some positives and negatives but overall I don't think we can get too high or too down from either. Not this season.

Rogco
02-03-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm still trying not to analyze to much and just bask in the JOB afterglow (or is that after JOB glow?)

Speed
02-03-2011, 04:26 PM
I think this is AJs strength, but he's been so programmed to not be a PG who runs the team, P-n-Rs, creates for teammates that he's struggled the first two games of the Vogel era. I think he'll get better and better. So will DC, even though we are already seeing it, big time, I think.

Sookie
02-03-2011, 04:28 PM
The question was never whether Darren would be more effective in a heavy pick and roll offense. Even Jim O'brien said he would. The question is whether going to a heavy pick and roll offense would make the Pacers team more effective and isn't that the bottomline. A coach always has to balance making certain players more effective vs making the team more effective. Obviously the two can be one in the same, but not always.

I agree with this.

However, you can't have an offense be effective if the point guard is flat out uncomfortable with it. I thought Darren was uncomfortable with JOB's offense.

Also, with AJ. It's funny, athough he had a mediocre game, last night's Price was the type of point guard he was at Connecticut. He controlled the game offensively, and was very much a court general (very vocal). I think he's just unsure of what exactly to run with that group..so he essentially ends up trying to set up Hans. But that'll sort itself out too.

I'm also not suprised his shot attempts have went down. AJ used to stop shooting if he'd miss a few. In fact, that could drive CT fans nuts. But essentially, I understood his point. "My shots not falling, thus..my shot is a bad shot." I've seen other point guards do that. It's a little annoying when he needs to do the teams scoring, but, well my favorite point (and player) is an extreme version of that (she won't even shoot in All Star games) so it really doesn't bother me..

I mean, with Hans and DJones playing with him, he's not going to get many shots anyway, but the.."never seen a shot he didn't like" Price was not the same point guard that I watched for three years. (He averaged over 7 shots in 16 minutes last season. He averaged a little over 10 as the #1 scoring option, playing about 35 mpg his senior season...that probably says enough) In some ways though, that might have made him a better player, because he can score. But I like him to be the kind of point guard that "stirs the drink" because controlling a team was always his best ability.

This is the type of offense that fits DC. And that's a good thing. He'll be able to play his game, and develope his game. Which is needed.

And as Vogel said, the changes are going to cause things like turnovers (although..um..Danny..I don't know why you are turning it over so much..) and a bit of confusion at first. But this is a well needed change. A more simplified offense, screens for the wings, more PnRs, and getting the ball into Hibbert is pretty obvious stuff.

daschysta
02-03-2011, 04:40 PM
I really think that seeing Darren try to adjust on the fly to JOB's motion offense has led alot of us to underestimate him.

Darren has the potential to average damn near 20-10 if he is given a good deal of freedom in the offense. Some people forget that he was a first team all-rookie point guard last year, and during his stint starting in NO he really was the better player between curry, jennings and evans.

He's always going to have certain issues with size on the defensive end, but he can be an elite (top 5) point guard offensively.

He already has an awesome and diverse game scoring the ball, he can shoot the three, has a pretty floater, a near automatic mid range shot, and he can even throw it down in addition to being faster than 90 percent of other players.

Furthermore i've seen awesome passing from him lately, passes that maybe he was afraid to make when JOB was here, probably due to being afraid to take the risk of being yanked for TJ.

If we can get some better pick-setters to play the pick and roll.... heck we've seen him be effective with Tyler in the pick and pop, and Tyler isn't really even that good at it. Darren could be a borderline All-Star PG, certainly better than Jennings. I REALLY wish we could get a player in the mold of David West or LaMarcus Aldridge, darren would absolutely kill with them...

What do you guys see Darren being capable of? I think that alot of people sell the pacers young talent short, like they see Darren as older and more experienced than he actually is.

Few teams have young talent as good as Collison, George, Hansbrough, Josh and Roy Hibbert.

It feels good to say that the only ones that DO have that kind of young talent are teams that have tanked to get it, and the pacers haven't acquired that losing culture that sometimes comes along with tanking and only subsides when you get lucky with a Blake Griffin... The salary cap space at the end of the year is icing on the cake!

Back on topic, as for the article the best part for me was the quote from Darren on Coach Vogel's decision to let him go wild. You can really tell he is incredibly excited to have the chance to run a more traditional offense, and you can tell that he wasn't a big fan at all of JOB's motion offense.

JOB instilled some good systems, and he DID get us to overachieve on the defensive side of the ball, but at times the offense has been attrocious this year, and having your PG comfortable in the offense is the first step to alleviating that problem.

I know i'd rather have the ball in his hands than pull my hair out because Solomon Jones is trying to run the offense from the top of the key. Roy is clearly best when he's given touches in the low post, short easy hookshots as opposed to trying to take the ridiculously difficult hook from damn near ten feet out. In theory Granger should be better in the offense that sets him up for open jumpers, as opposed to forcing him to dribble into traffic which is a turnover waiting to happen. I don't want to lose JOB's defensive production, but we were going nowhere fast using a motion offense that our point guard hated. Danny isn't the type of player you should have to build an offense around, as his greatest strength is as a jump shooter, or cutter, and a more productive Darren and Roy will open things up for Danny anyhow.

I think we are just starting to see the real Darren Collison, and he is just going to continue to get better. He has a chance to be the pacers best point guard in our NBA history, certainly second behind Jackson. What kind of production do you all expect from him for the rest of the year?

CableKC
02-03-2011, 05:55 PM
Okay...I have a few stupid questions.....

1 ) Did JO'B ( in any way ) used any of the tactics mentioned ( PnR, setting screens, etc...)?

2 ) If we are going to use more PnR....do we have the right type of Players to run that type of play with DC?

righteouscool
02-03-2011, 05:56 PM
Collison has been the Pacers best player lately, imo.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 06:02 PM
Okay...I have a few stupid questions.....

There's no such thing as a stupid question. ;)


1 ) Did JO'B ( in any way ) used any of the tactics mentioned ( PnR, setting screens, etc...)?


We ran screens for Mike all of the time, and sometimes for Rush.. But never for Granger or George.

We didn't run the pick and roll or pick and pop enough, most of the time it was pass to the C or PF in the high post and have everyone run around and try to score off of a pass by the PF or C in the high post. If that didn't get us an open shot, we usually went iso or ran a pick and pop at the end of the shot slock.


2 ) If we are going to use more PnR....do we have the right type of Players to run that type of play with DC?

No we don't, unfortunately. Tyler is okay at the pick n pop, and our other guys are terrible for the pick and roll, pick and pop. That's why we really need a Luis Scola/David West type big that excel at that play.

I will say this though: The 1/3 PnR with DC and Granger is beautiful.. I've been raving about it on here ever since we ran it yesterday.

Eddie Gill
02-03-2011, 06:10 PM
I will say this though: The 1/3 PnR with DC and Granger is beautiful.. I've been raving about it on here ever since we ran it yesterday.

I keep hearing about this 1/3 PnR. What is it exactly?

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 06:12 PM
I keep hearing about this 1/3 PnR. What is it exactly?

A point guard (Considered a 1), and a small forward (Considered a 3) run a pick and pop. Last night during the Cleveland game Danny set a pick for Collison and Collison drove to the free throw line and kicked out to Granger for a three.