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Hicks
02-03-2011, 12:26 AM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/02/a-win-is-a-win-for-the-pacers/

Mike Wells
IndyStar.com



I constantly get asked when Lance Stephenson will make his season debut.

Its coming soon, according to Vogel.

Stephenson is the only Pacer yet to appear in a game this season.

Its going to be soon, Im just not exactly sure what game, Vogel said. I want to get through these first couple of games as T.J. (Ford) as my third point guard.

Ford, who was taken out the rotation two weeks ago, will move to the inactive list once Stephenson gets promoted.

Vogel said Ford understands the move will happen at some point.

His attitude has been phenomenal, Vogel said. Hes ready to do whatever we ask him to do. Hell be inactive so Lance can be active.

pacer4ever
02-03-2011, 12:28 AM
cool

pizza guy
02-03-2011, 12:31 AM
“His attitude has been phenomenal,” Vogel said. “He’s ready to do whatever we ask him to do. He’ll be inactive so Lance can be active.”

I'm glad he's got a good attitude, but the last part made me laugh. What's he going to do? Show up with his jersey on anyways? Storm the court like a streaker and run circles until tackled by security? LOL

I'm interested to see Lance play.

xBulletproof
02-03-2011, 12:31 AM
I hope we can find Ford a place where his abilities are utilized and he can be appreciated.

I can't imagine how much it sucks to be inactive for a 19 year old kid you're better than. More important than being a quality NBA player, Ford is a quality person.

TheDon
02-03-2011, 12:58 AM
It's kind of funny with the hype being built up surrounding Stephenson's debut it's getting to the point to where it feels like watching the WWE and waiting for Hulk Hogan to return. Maybe a bit of hyperbole there but it's starting to feel like that. My opinion if it happens cool..if not life goes on. Although if Lance comes out to "I am a real american" and rips his jacket off Hogan style that'd be kind of cool. :)

Jon Theodore
02-03-2011, 01:02 AM
LOL at the Hulk Hogan reference...it's funny because deep down I feel like he is going to suit up and be Dwayne Wade...I am sure reality feels differently.

Evan_The_Dude
02-03-2011, 01:49 AM
I feel sorry for Ford.

cdash
02-03-2011, 01:53 AM
I'll be honest: I'm a little excited to see Lance play.

pacer4ever
02-03-2011, 02:24 AM
I'll be honest: I'm a little excited to see Lance play.

Me 2 if he can play point thats a big if. He could be a game changer for us.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 02:28 AM
If he gets 15 minutes of burn, how will he do?

Midcoasted
02-03-2011, 02:32 AM
LOL at the Hulk Hogan reference...it's funny because deep down I feel like he is going to suit up and be Dwayne Wade...I am sure reality feels differently.

I know it isn't likely but there is still a chance that Lance, being the only player who hasn't played this year, still could end up being the best player on the team. That very small, but real possibility excites us all deep down. I think that is why Larry pulled the trigger on him and tried desperately to move up to get him.

I think the reason he hasn't played is the court trouble honestly. He really shot himself in the own foot with that. Hopefully for all parties concerned, he can overcome that and become Dwade 2.0.

Midcoasted
02-03-2011, 02:36 AM
If he gets 15 minutes of burn, how will he do?

This is just my guess but I picture him being agressive and getting 8 points and showing that his size makes him our best defensive PG option. Most thought he was to slow but will be pleasently surprised when they realize he is quick enough to make it in the NBA as a point, but his size and strength will set him apart defensively from our other PGs.

pacer4ever
02-03-2011, 02:36 AM
If he gets 15 minutes of burn, how will he do?

it depends im sure he will be rusty just like AJ is. And if he plays with a chip on his shoulder watch out.

Trader Joe
02-03-2011, 02:41 AM
My prediction: Lance gets into a game, immediately misses 3 or 4 shots in 4 or 5 minutes, chucks them up and reminds us all why he is a serious work in progress.

This guy ain't Paul George. He doesn't have that fluidity to his game yet, and he's going to be playing out of position.

Whoever is trying to shoe horn him as a point guard needs to have their head examined.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 02:58 AM
TBH though, Danny doesn't have that fluidity either and he never will. Just throwing that out there.

To answer my own question, I think that he'll get like 6 points showing some nice moves, but he does it outside of the flow of the offense while showing off some bad team defense with decent man-to-man as long as he isn't being picked on by an opposing player. Then we'll know why Bird and co. are excited about him, while at the same time understanding why he doesn't really deserve playing time.

judicata
02-03-2011, 03:24 AM
I'm glad he's got a good attitude, but the last part made me laugh. What's he going to do? Show up with his jersey on anyways? Storm the court like a streaker and run circles until tackled by security? LOL


Be a belligerent primadonna, make poorly veiled bitter comments to the media, and otherwise make life difficult during practice for the new coach? Nah, that would never happen in the NBA.

wintermute
02-03-2011, 07:12 AM
I hope we can find Ford a place where his abilities are utilized and he can be appreciated.

I can't imagine how much it sucks to be inactive for a 19 year old kid you're better than. More important than being a quality NBA player, Ford is a quality person.

Yeah, can't ask any more from TJ. I hope we release him with plenty of time to latch on to another team where he can get minutes to play for a new contract.

I understand that we're keeping him around just in case we can use his contract in a trade, but past the trade deadline and there wouldn't be any point to that.

DrFife
02-03-2011, 08:41 AM
Reading about Doug Collins shifting Iggy to a "point-forward" made me wonder, "Could we call Lance a 'point-shooting-guard'?" Kind of like playing small ball or having a "3-pt specialist," perhaps we can develop a specific drive-and-dish style for Lance that might be quite effective for short periods of time. Maybe that's the proper way to view him: as a high-potential specialist.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 08:50 AM
I don't really care when he's going to play. he was a very late second round pick who could spend the next few years in prison, so I don't care about him.

troyc11a
02-03-2011, 09:36 AM
Really, why should I be excited to see player who was drafted in the 2nd round and not good enough to get on the court for an 18-27 team? If he was any good at all he would have already found his way on the court. "Born Ready" might never be ready!

Day-V
02-03-2011, 09:46 AM
"Stay Tuned"

thewholefnshow31
02-03-2011, 09:52 AM
It's kind of funny with the hype being built up surrounding Stephenson's debut it's getting to the point to where it feels like watching the WWE and waiting for Hulk Hogan to return. Maybe a bit of hyperbole there but it's starting to feel like that. My opinion if it happens cool..if not life goes on. Although if Lance comes out to "I am a real american" and rips his jacket off Hogan style that'd be kind of cool. :)

All we need is Lance to cut some promos about his debut and we will be set!

It will be nice to see Lance get some time against some real NBA players. I do not expect a whole bunch from him. I will just be happy if he stays out of trouble this year.

pacergod2
02-03-2011, 10:14 AM
I am hoping for Stephenson to be the combo guard off the bench. He comes in and scores in bunches and we don't have to worry about his defensive issues as much. OJ Mayo, Jarrett Jack, Gilbert Arenas (now), there are a ton of these combo guard players that make a ton of sense that can come in as a PG or SG depending on the matchup. That is what I envision his greatest role on an NBA team being. The kid seems like he is a natural scorer and the Pacers definitely could use the extra scoring.

DGPR
02-03-2011, 10:15 AM
I don't really care when he's going to play. he was a very late second round pick who could spend the next few years in prison, so I don't care about him.


Actually he was the 10th pick in the second round so I wouldn't consider that very late. And I very very very much doubt that he's going to do any prison time, let alone a few years.

k_lewis93
02-03-2011, 10:20 AM
Really, why should I be excited to see player who was drafted in the 2nd round and not good enough to get on the court for an 18-27 team? If he was any good at all he would have already found his way on the court. "Born Ready" might never be ready!

I hope he comes out and gets a steal or 2, a few rebounds, handles the offense very affectively, puts up 6 to 10 points, and plays great defense to show you just why we are all excited about him. We got him in the second round and if you saw him play at all in the summer league he was impressive. It was a steal and IMO he will turn out to be the second or third best player on the team. Give him time.

Day-V
02-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Really, why should I be excited to see player who was drafted in the 2nd round and not good enough to get on the court for an 18-27 team? If he was any good at all he would have already found his way on the court. "Born Ready" might never be ready!

With O'Brien as coach? That's like oil mixing with water. Dude was never going to see time with Jimmy around.


The fact that Vogel has said repeatedly that Lance will be playing soon says something. At least to me.

Speed
02-03-2011, 10:24 AM
I am hoping for Stephenson to be the combo guard off the bench. He comes in and scores in bunches and we don't have to worry about his defensive issues as much. OJ Mayo, Jarrett Jack, Gilbert Arenas (now), there are a ton of these combo guard players that make a ton of sense that can come in as a PG or SG depending on the matchup. That is what I envision his greatest role on an NBA team being. The kid seems like he is a natural scorer and the Pacers definitely could use the extra scoring.


Agreed, I think Vogel will have to patience to live with the turnovers and defensive lapses that will maybe come with him playing so we can get to the scoring bursts.

I want to see Lance set up in the low post, at some point and punish some weaker players/defenders. He's strong enough to establish position and finish, a good enough passer to create out of that set. Also, his Pick and Roll 20 foot jumper will be near unstoppable. I'm excited to see him get minutes.

DaveP63
02-03-2011, 10:48 AM
I don't have very high expectations of him, so anything postitive that he can bring is gravy. If he can really contribute, then so much the better. If not, what are you really out? But, I am ready to find out.

Sparhawk
02-03-2011, 10:53 AM
I think Lance can be a great offensive player. Just hope he works hard on the defense. If he can get his defense to be even close to average, he'll be a very good player.

LA_Confidential
02-03-2011, 10:53 AM
"Stay Tuned"

I ordered League Pass 10 minutes before the tip-off last night.

LA_Confidential
02-03-2011, 10:57 AM
I think Lance can be a great offensive player. Just hope he works hard on the defense. If he can get his defense to be even close to average, he'll be a very good player.

I dont think is defense is any worse than Dunleavy. And Im certain his is better at taking it to the rack and creating his own shot than Dunleavy. At this point its all about focus and keeing up with the pace of the game. He's like 19 so he's got plenty of time and room to grow.

90'sNBARocked
02-03-2011, 12:04 PM
I don't really care when he's going to play. he was a very late second round pick who could spend the next few years in prison, so I don't care about him.

Thats a nice thing to say, arent you high and mighty

Anthem
02-03-2011, 12:27 PM
[Stephenson] could spend the next few years in prison, so I don't care about him.
While it's true that he could, it doesn't seem very likely. The top brass has said that the true story is very different than what got leaked to the media, and that they'd have no qualms about cutting him if those things were true. So I don't think it's likely.

My worry has more to do with Vogel seeing him as a third PG. I'd feel a lot better about Stephenson playing the 2, perhaps paired with AJ in the backcourt.

dal9
02-03-2011, 12:36 PM
Re: Stephenson coming soon...

is someone gonna put a finger in his @zz?













(feel free to delete if over the line...i have a feeling it might be--thanks)

Hicks
02-03-2011, 12:40 PM
I feel better about him at the 1 than the 2, but really his game is going to have to be the same no matter where you put him, so it just depends on where he's best suited defensively. Regardless, if you're going to play this guy, you need to give him the ball.

thelostpacer
02-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Let play he can play it whouldnt hurt just dont over do it

vnzla81
02-03-2011, 12:43 PM
Really, why should I be excited to see player who was drafted in the 2nd round and not good enough to get on the court for an 18-27 team? If he was any good at all he would have already found his way on the court. "Born Ready" might never be ready!

Yep I remember when I heard the same BS from few people last year and the year before that one about Josh.

Sookie
02-03-2011, 12:43 PM
While it's true that he could, it doesn't seem very likely. The top brass has said that the true story is very different than what got leaked to the media, and that they'd have no qualms about cutting him if those things were true. So I don't think it's likely.

My worry has more to do with Vogel seeing him as a third PG. I'd feel a lot better about Stephenson playing the 2, perhaps paired with AJ in the backcourt.

How would the top brass know the true story? They know Lance's story. And we know the girl, her friends and her father's story.

The girl could have changed her mind and decided she doesn't want to go along with the charges, which will make things more difficult for the state. But that still doesn't mean anyone, other than those who were there, knows the real story.

Anyway, I agree though, if we play him, he'd be best next to Price. AJ can play without the ball, and provides an outside threat. He can also direct traffic and such without the ball, and we can give Lance the ball. Dun and Rush are other possibilities, but Rush isn't going to be good at running an offense without the ball (or with it) and pairing Dun and Lance up defensively...It'd also be better to have another ball handler out there with him. Lance played his best in preseason when he was with Price.

Hicks
02-03-2011, 12:44 PM
Also, it would be very easy to cut the cord with this guy, but they have not done so. That highly suggests to me that 1) They don't think he did what the media alleged he did and 2) He really is quite talented and capable of showing it at this level.

I think if they believed he couldn't make it in the league after getting an extended close look at him since June through today, I think they'd have just cut ties with him at the first sign of trouble.

Hicks
02-03-2011, 12:45 PM
But that still doesn't mean anyone, other than those who were there, knows the real story.

Which applies to what the media reported, too.

docpaul
02-03-2011, 12:46 PM
I feel sorry for Ford.

Don't be *too* sorry... he is making 8 million dollars to sit on the bench. :)

cdash
02-03-2011, 12:46 PM
How would the top brass know the true story? They know Lance's story. And we know the girl, her friends and her father's story.

The girl could have changed her mind and decided she doesn't want to go along with the charges, which will make things more difficult for the state. But that still doesn't mean anyone, other than those who were there, knows the real story.

They have much more resources than us, plus a vested interest in the outcome, either way it goes. If it turns out that version we heard is true, then I think they would have severed ties with him. My belief is that in their investigations (lawyers, other people close to the situation, etc.) they have uncovered sufficient enough evidence that they think the situation played a different way, and are more or less standing by him.

Sookie
02-03-2011, 12:48 PM
Also, it would be very easy to cut the cord with this guy, but they have not done so. That highly suggests to me that 1) They don't think he did what the media alleged he did and 2) He really is quite talented and capable of showing it at this level.

I think if they believed he couldn't make it in the league after getting an extended close look at him since June through today, I think they'd have just cut ties with him at the first sign of trouble.

I think Larry Bird really likes him, and had his mind set about him for a long time.

Bird is stubborn, we kept O'brien for 3+ years. I don't think keeping Lance until his court appearance means anything. And I really don't know how much information the New York criminal justice system is going to give the Pacers.

It's totally possible that they got in a verbal fight and he pushed her, and she fell..as in that wasn't his intention. But..with these types of cases, and Lance's history with women, the percentages would suggest what was reported was what happened. Granted, look at me with those statistics..being all Jimmy like. :P

purdue101
02-03-2011, 12:49 PM
While it's true that he could, it doesn't seem very likely. The top brass has said that the true story is very different than what got leaked to the media, and that they'd have no qualms about cutting him if those things were true. So I don't think it's likely.

My worry has more to do with Vogel seeing him as a third PG. I'd feel a lot better about Stephenson playing the 2, perhaps paired with AJ in the backcourt.

I agree 100%. I'm pretty high on AJ as the backup PG and would rather see Lance in the wing rotation than rotting as a 3rd stringer. AJ is somewhat an off guard anyways, so the two would likely work well together when you take into account Lance's passing strengths.

Going this route would likely require Rush to be traded. I've always been high on Rush but would be ok with it if it got us a big man and Lance reached his potential.

While I am open to trading Danny, if we keep him, I would like to see the following core 8 man rotation. The ideal missing big can play the 4 or slide to the 5 so Hans can get 25 min per night.

DC/AJ
PG/Lance
DG/Lance
???/Hans
Roy/Hans

cdash
02-03-2011, 12:49 PM
As for Lance actually playing, I really think it would behoove all parties involved if we stopped pretending this guy was a point guard, because he's not. If he's going to play, give him the 10-12 worthless minutes that Dahntay Jones has been playing. Let him play with Price. AJ doesn't have to have the ball to be effective, and they could share some of the ballhandling load. Dahntay isn't giving us much of anything out there, and I'm a little unsure why there seems to be a contingent around here that likes him.

cdash
02-03-2011, 12:49 PM
I think Larry Bird really likes him, and had his mind set about him for a long time.

Bird is stubborn, we kept O'brien for 3+ years. I don't think keeping Lance until his court appearance means anything.

Keeping Obie that long was almost strictly financial imo.

Speed
02-03-2011, 12:51 PM
I want to see him play.

However, I just keep feeling like, he will be a guy who can't keep himself clean (hookers in a hotel within 6 months of felony charges, come on man).

Even if he does act PERFECT the next 2.5 years, I don't know I would ever trust him with a bigger or longer term contract. How can you?

I'd love to inflate his value and move him ASAP. Even if he turned into an Allstar, I'd never fault that strategy.

90'sNBARocked
02-03-2011, 12:56 PM
I want to see him play.

However, I just keep feeling like, he will be a guy who can't keep himself clean (hookers in a hotel within 6 months of felony charges, come on man).

Even if he does act PERFECT the next 2.5 years, I don't know I would ever trust him with a bigger or longer term contract. How can you?

I'd love to inflate his value and move him ASAP. Even if he turned into an Allstar, I'd never fault that strategy.

What is "oh my God material" and taboo in Indiana

Is normal in NYC

My concern will be if he is given time and does produce well, will his head become enormous?

Speed
02-03-2011, 12:58 PM
What is "oh my God material" and taboo in Indiana

Is normal in NYC

My concern will be if he is given time and does produce well, will his head become enormous?

Eliot Spitzer

cdash
02-03-2011, 12:59 PM
My concern will be if he is given time and does produce well, will his head become enormous?

That is a great question. Methinks the answer is a resounding, "yes".

Sookie
02-03-2011, 12:59 PM
As for Lance actually playing, I really think it would behoove all parties involved if we stopped pretending this guy was a point guard, because he's not. If he's going to play, give him the 10-12 worthless minutes that Dahntay Jones has been playing. Let him play with Price. AJ doesn't have to have the ball to be effective, and they could share some of the ballhandling load. Dahntay isn't giving us much of anything out there, and I'm a little unsure why there seems to be a contingent around here that likes him.

Right, he played his best in the preseason next to Price. Price is probably as good as a fit for a point guard that you could find next to Lance.

I like Dahntay Jones the person, and I just haven't seen him play as much. So if he played a ton, especially over the likes of Paul George and Brandon Rush, I'd probably end up feeling the same way about him as I do about Ford. (Really good person..but I don't need to see him play basketball any longer)

But for right now..I find him to be a really good teammate.

Sookie
02-03-2011, 01:02 PM
Keeping Obie that long was almost strictly financial imo.

That's what I thought. But according to Kravitz, (which could be wrong) Bird didn't want to fire Obie, Simon said to do it.

BRushWithDeath
02-03-2011, 01:06 PM
I have no problem with prostitution between consenting adults.

I have a problem with a guy, who absolutely must be on his best behavior, because of multiple past incidents, being dumb enough to get recorded getting fingered by a known loud mouth groupie whore.

But my thinking he won't make it in the NBA has nothing to with his arrest record.

Justin Tyme
02-03-2011, 01:12 PM
I don't really care when he's going to play. he was a very late second round pick who could spend the next few years in prison, so I don't care about him.


I don't care for him either, but he wasn't a late 2nd round pick. He was #10 pick in the 2nd round.

Now, Ramon Sessions was a late 2nd round pick in the 50's, and I have liked him since he was with Milwaukee. I would have liked to have seen Bird get him this past summer from Minnie.

cdash
02-03-2011, 01:12 PM
I have a problem with a guy, who absolutely must be on his best behavior, because of multiple past incidents, being dumb enough to get recorded getting fingered by a known loud mouth groupie whore.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Not gonna lie, I got a hearty chuckle out of this.

Since86
02-03-2011, 01:20 PM
I have no problem with prostitution between consenting adults.

I have a problem with a guy, who absolutely must be on his best behavior, because of multiple past incidents, being dumb enough to get recorded getting fingered by a known loud mouth groupie whore.

But my thinking he won't make it in the NBA has nothing to with his arrest record.

Does it really matter to you what he does in his own personal life?

While you might think that *** play is disgusting, that's your opinion. It's not illegal. If Lance doesn't care that people know his sexual fetishes, or whatever, then why should you?

It says more about our society, and looking down on him because of what he likes, than it say's about Lance. We don't need to be a nation full of judgemental squares. Obviously I think we don't need to go to the extreme other way either.

But what Lance likes to do in his own private time is his business. As long as it's legal, then so be it.

The only thing I have a problem with, is that he got a hooker. There are plenty of women out there that are more than willing to engage in activities out there, who you don't have to pay.

Justin Tyme
02-03-2011, 01:25 PM
Dude was never going to see time with Jimmy around.


It's probably the "ONE" thing I could agree with Jimmy on! I never want to see Stephenson step on the court representing the Pacers. He's just one "more" incident away from being another PR nightmare for the Pacers. I don't care about his possible great potential, b/c at this stage that's all it is, potential. He also has the potential of being a PR nightmare, and I feel that outweighs what he could possibly bring as a 3rd or 4th PG, a position he's NOT qualified to play.

BringJackBack
02-03-2011, 01:25 PM
I don't care for him either, but he wasn't a late 2nd round pick. He was #10 pick in the 2nd round.

Now, Ramon Sessions was a late 2nd round pick in the 50's, and I have liked him since he was with Milwaukee. I would have liked to have seen Bird get him this past summer from Minnie.

I still want him.. Great backup, and he's big enough to guard the monster point guards.

Justin Tyme
02-03-2011, 01:36 PM
As for Lance actually playing, I really think it would behoove all parties involved if we stopped pretending this guy was a point guard, because he's not.



But but there are those that think he can be made into a PG. Then Jimmy thought Posey was a PF. If you believe hard enough, it surely will come to be.

xBulletproof
02-03-2011, 01:37 PM
People still can't seem to grasp that we can't release him based on being charged, no matter how obvious that case could be. So no, we couldn't have cut ties with him yet.

If you haven't been found guilty by a court of law, then you're not guilty. An employer cutting ties with an employee who has only been accused, and not found guilty would set up for a serious lawsuit that would not be won by the Pacers.

DGPR
02-03-2011, 01:41 PM
People still can't seem to grasp that we can't release him based on being charged, no matter how obvious that case could be. So no, we couldn't have cut ties with him yet.

If you haven't been found guilty by a court of law, then you're not guilty. An employer cutting ties with an employee who has only been accused, and not found guilty would set up for a serious lawsuit that would not be won by the Pacers.


The Pacers can cut anybody on their team at anytime they want to, and there's nothing a player can do about it. They might have to pay them the remainder of their contract but they can release them from the team no matter the situation.

ksuttonjr76
02-03-2011, 01:42 PM
I just want to see if he can play at the NBA level. Nothing more, nothing less. I watched him during the Summer League games, and he had flashes of potentional. If he can make the transition, a 6-5 PG would cause havoc in the NBA.

vnzla81
02-03-2011, 01:43 PM
I can't wait to see this guy on the floor, I don't care what anybody says.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1FKOYCV93Fc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Speed
02-03-2011, 01:46 PM
I just want to see if he can play at the NBA level. Nothing more, nothing less. I watched him during the Summer League games, and he had flashes of potentional. If he can make the transition, a 6-5 PG would cause havoc in the NBA.

I thought he was the best player in the Orlando summer league for any team, granted it was a talent depleted group. He near dominated the few games he played, imo.

xBulletproof
02-03-2011, 01:49 PM
The Pacers can cut anybody on their team at anytime they want to, and there's nothing a player can do about it. They might have to pay them the remainder of their contract but they can release them from the team no matter the situation.

You're right, but a good lawyer would show up in court with a list of quotes from Larry Bird, highlights from Summer League. A ton of NBA reports about Lance's showing in Summer League and be able to make a case that he wasn't cut for reasons on the court, and he'd probably win.

They could sue for the damage done to his career and potential future earnings lost by the release. Especially if the case was thrown out of court or he was in some way found not guilty. He would win, and the Pacers would lose.

So yes, the Pacers can release him anytime they feel. But I could also go shoot someone anytime I felt like walking outside with my pistol and pulling the trigger. Neither truth would prevent me from going to jail, or the Pacers from losing that court case either. So they can, but they really can't.

**EDIT** To expand on this, notice any application you fill out asks if you've ever been "convicted" of a felony, and not "accused" of a felony? The law protects people from being punished without being found guilty. I wouldn't want to be the sports team that tries to set a precedent that you can release someone on accusations.

ksuttonjr76
02-03-2011, 01:52 PM
I can't wait to see this guy on the floor, I don't care what anybody says.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1FKOYCV93Fc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Watching this video...has Paul George ever gotten a clean facial on someone yet? It seems like he always make these "akward" dunks in traffic which is weird given that he pretty good smooth body control,

smj887
02-03-2011, 01:55 PM
You're right, but a good lawyer would show up in court with a list of quotes from Larry Bird, highlights from Summer League. A ton of NBA reports about Lance's showing in Summer League and be able to make a case that he wasn't cut for reasons on the court, and he'd probably win.

They could sue for the damage done to his career and potential future earnings lost by the release. Especially if the case was thrown out of court or he was in some way found not guilty. He would win, and the Pacers would lose.

So yes, the Pacers can release him anytime they feel. But I could also go shoot someone anytime I felt like walking outside with my pistol and pulling the trigger. Neither truth would prevent me from going to jail, or the Pacers from losing that court case either. So they can, but they really can't.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm basically certain they can release him anytime they feel and it will be within the bounds of his contract. All they're required to do is pay him, since his deal is guaranteed. They don't have to have a reason for why they drop him. Since it's contract employment and not even standard employment under Indiana law, things like protected classes don't even apply. It's different from getting fired from a Denny's.

Do you have any example of any player at any point in the NBA's history suing their former team for releasing them?

Edit: If this theoretical good lawyer just has to "make a case that he wasn't cut for reasons on the court, and he'd probably win," then why haven't we heard back from Tinsley? He was obviously cut for other reasons, and the Pacers clearly managed to assassinate his career by benching him for so long before finally cutting him.

xIndyFan
02-03-2011, 01:59 PM
be interesting to see if stephenson can defend or not. if he can bring the ball up the court against pressure and defend at least as well as collison, then he has a chance. pretty sure everybody on the pacers thinks he can produce in the half court offense, it's just a matter of defending.

vnzla81
02-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Does anybody remember what newspaper told the story first? we need to remember what kind of newspapers they got in NY, I have a feeling that the Pacers know what really happened.

Speed
02-03-2011, 02:10 PM
I'm thinking the Pacers know what can be and can't be proved in court, more than what happened. That's really where their immediate interests would lie.

Long term, I guess you just try to put everything in place to help him make better decisions and hope he does.

I kinda cringe at the thought of the lock out next year and the teams aren't allowed to babysit, er um keep close tabs on him.

It just gets back to my earlier thoughts, I don't trust him, so therefore I'd never give him a long/big contract, so really whats the point.

I guess he could have an epiphany... not sure I'd even believe that, with too much of my long term salary availability.

I've just spent too much time watching overpaid boneheads and then overpaid nice guys for their talent, the last few years to think it's worth it.

I get he's 19, I get he's had a different upbringing. I'm not passing judgement as much as don't want another Tinsley on our hands. The PACERS ARE STILL PAYING TINSLEY TODAY!!!!

So to summarize, I'm okay with the almost no-risk contract he's on now, I want to see him play starting Friday, I just can't think of a scenerio that lets me resign him in 2.5 years for anything of value in years or dollars. None.

vnzla81
02-03-2011, 02:13 PM
I'm thinking the Pacers know what can be and can't be proved in court, more than what happened. That's really where their immediate interests would lie.

Long term, I guess you just try to put everything in place to help him make better decisions and hope he does.

I kinda cringe at the thought of the lock out next year and the teams aren't allowed to babysit, er um keep close tabs on him.

It just gets back to my earlier thoughts, I don't trust him, so therefore I'd never give him a long/big contract, so really whats the point.

I guess he could have an epiphany... not sure I'd even believe that, with too much of my long term salary availability.

I've just spent too much time watching overpaid boneheads and then overpaid nice guys for their talent, the last few years to think it's worth it.

I get he's 19, I get he's had a different upbringing. I'm not passing judgement as much as don't want another Tinsley on our hands. The PACERS ARE STILL PAYING TINSLEY TODAY!!!!

So to summarize, I'm okay with the almost no-risk contract he's on now, I want to see him play starting Friday, I just can't think of a scenerio that lets me resign him in 2.5 years for anything of value in years or dollars. None.

Who knows maybe the new CBA would make it easier for teams to remove players and cut them.

billbradley
02-03-2011, 02:23 PM
lance reminds me of isaiah rider

xBulletproof
02-03-2011, 02:27 PM
Do you have any example of any player at any point in the NBA's history suing their former team for releasing them?

Is there any history of a player being released over an accusation? Just because you sign a contract I have a hard time believing that laws just go out the window. I've been involved in the hiring/firing process and our paperwork said when hired that we can release you for any reason, and at any time, but it still didn't make us immune to the law. We couldn't fire someone for being caught doing something even if the eye witness was a police officer, until a jury came down with a guilty verdict.

As far as Tinsley goes, he wasn't released. He just didn't play. Same thing that has happened to Lance. However if you released him, it could be construed as a signal of guilt. That's nothing like what happened to Tinsley.

KevinB
02-03-2011, 02:28 PM
Whether you like Lance or not, the Pacers are in a position, finally, this offseason to court some free agents, and we are not going to be a very attractive destination if we are not seen as a franchise that will stand by their players even before they have had their day in court. Just my 2 cents.

billbradley
02-03-2011, 02:36 PM
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd462/squirrel_talk/166639_494656143270_543238270_6090553_1596790_n.jp g

pic i took during pre season, i thought it was neat

DGPR
02-03-2011, 02:51 PM
Is there any history of a player being released over an accusation? Just because you sign a contract I have a hard time believing that laws just go out the window. I've been involved in the hiring/firing process and our paperwork said when hired that we can release you for any reason, and at any time, but it still didn't make us immune to the law. We couldn't fire someone for being caught doing something even if the eye witness was a police officer, until a jury came down with a guilty verdict.

As far as Tinsley goes, he wasn't released. He just didn't play. Same thing that has happened to Lance. However if you released him, it could be construed as a signal of guilt. That's nothing like what happened to Tinsley.

The team told Tinsley to stay at home and not come around the team anymore. That's in no way damaging Tinsley's career or labeling him as a cancer to the team? I'm not saying that I think the Pacers wronged Tinsley, because he deserved every ounce of punishment he received, just from being so stupid. I am saying that if a player makes headlines in the wrong way, a team can release them because it's conduct detrimental to the team, and it's very damaging to that team's brand.

If Lance wanted to sue the Pacers for money lost because no team will sign him, then the Pacers should be able to sue him for ticket sales lost because some people don't like what Lance was accused of doing. By your way of thought Pacman Jones should sue the Dallas Cowboys and Mike Vanderjagt should sue the crap out of Peyton Manning. That's just not the way it works in sports.

Since86
02-03-2011, 03:00 PM
I am saying that if a player makes headlines in the wrong way, a team can release them because it's conduct detrimental to the team, and it's very damaging to that team's brand.

No you can't. Jamaal found himself in the police blotter more than once, and the Pacers still couldn't release him like that.

vnzla81
02-03-2011, 03:02 PM
http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd462/squirrel_talk/166639_494656143270_543238270_6090553_1596790_n.jp g

pic i took during pre season, i thought it was neat

What is that light in the middle of the picture? Jim had a bright idea or something?

DGPR
02-03-2011, 03:03 PM
No you can't. Jamaal found himself in the police blotter more than once, and the Pacers still couldn't release him like that.


Only because they wanted to try and get something out of him if they could through trade. Once they figured out that Tinsley couldn't be traded to anybody they bought out his contract and released him.

ilive4sports
02-03-2011, 03:05 PM
Only because they wanted to try and get something out of him if they could through trade. Once they figured out that Tinsley couldn't be traded to anybody they bought out his contract and released him.

They were trying to release him for awhile, but he wouldn't accept the buy out the Pacers were offering.

DGPR
02-03-2011, 03:07 PM
They were trying to release him for awhile, but he wouldn't accept the buy out the Pacers were offering.


Because the Pacers were lowballing him and Tinsley wanted to hold out and get the maximum amount of money that he could get.

Since86
02-03-2011, 03:09 PM
Only because they wanted to try and get something out of him if they could through trade. Once they figured out that Tinsley couldn't be traded to anybody they bought out his contract and released him.

But if what you said in your previous post was accurate, the Pacers could have simply cut him, instead of buying out his contract and saved millions of dollars.

NBA teams can't release players just because they're headaches off the court, even if they're getting in trouble with the law.

billbradley
02-03-2011, 03:11 PM
What is that light in the middle of the picture? Jim had a bright idea or something?

im a fine arts major and i have no idea where it came from. its taken with my iphone so i doubt lens flare. sometimes neat stuff just happens.

smj887
02-03-2011, 03:14 PM
Is there any history of a player being released over an accusation? Just because you sign a contract I have a hard time believing that laws just go out the window. I've been involved in the hiring/firing process and our paperwork said when hired that we can release you for any reason, and at any time, but it still didn't make us immune to the law. We couldn't fire someone for being caught doing something even if the eye witness was a police officer, until a jury came down with a guilty verdict.

As far as Tinsley goes, he wasn't released. He just didn't play. Same thing that has happened to Lance. However if you released him, it could be construed as a signal of guilt. That's nothing like what happened to Tinsley.

In the NBA, I doubt there are any examples of players being released over accusations. A major part of that is the guaranteed contracts and that a team still has the financial burden to deal with, so the incentive of releasing the player is reduced. Just look at the Wizards, everyone thought they should part ways with Gil - and he was actually convicted of something - but really their only option was to hang on to him and get some value. Obviously it worked out, they got Rashard Lewis instead of just having a $20 mil hole in their cap every season for the next 40 years.

The laws don't "go out the window," they just don't apply in certain scenarios. Brett Favre's over 40, he's part of a protected class according to the civil rights act; but no one would suggest that the Vikings would be violating employment laws by releasing him. The law also says that Indiana employment is at-will, but that definitely "goes out the window" when a contract is involved. Granger can't just show up to practice and tell the team he quits, then go play for Phoenix. He could definitely leave hourly employment at whatever place to go work somewhere else, though.


But if what you said in your previous post was accurate, the Pacers could have simply cut him, instead of buying out his contract and saved millions of dollars.

NBA teams can't release players just because they're headaches off the court, even if they're getting in trouble with the law.

I don't believe he was saying they'd cut him and not have to pay him. I think everyone here is educated enough as a fan to realize that the NBA has guaranteed contracts and that terminating them without pay is essentially impossible.


With regard to the Tinsley situation... As I recall, it's not that they couldn't release him. They were trying to trade him, and then trying to get him to accept a low buyout, and he didn't budge. There was no incentive for the team to release him straight up, since he'd get the full amount whether he was released or paid to sit in Atlanta. From the team's perspective, if you have to pay him one way or another since there are no trade takers and he's rejecting low buyouts, why would you release him so that you can pay him to go play for a competitor when you can just keep him and pay him the same figure to not compete against the team?

DGPR
02-03-2011, 03:17 PM
But if what you said in your previous post was accurate, the Pacers could have simply cut him, instead of buying out his contract and saved millions of dollars.

NBA teams can't release players just because they're headaches off the court, even if they're getting in trouble with the law.


If the Pacers were to just cut Tinsley then they would be on the hook for the exact amount remaining on his contract. Typically a buyout is just a lump sum that is less than the remaining amount left on the contract.

I used Wiki as a reference but here is what I'm talking about....






Released players
Released/waived players with guaranteed contracts continue to be included in their former team's payroll. Players whose contracts are not guaranteed are included in team salary in the amount they made while they were with the team. Players on non-guaranteed "summer contracts" are not included in team salary unless they make the regular season roster.
If another team signs a released player who had a guaranteed contract (as long as the player has cleared waivers), the player's original team is allowed to reduce the amount of money they still owe the player (and lower their team payroll) by the right of set-off. This is true if the player signs with any professional team—it does not even have to be an NBA team. The amount the original team gets to set off is limited to one-half the difference between the player's new salary and a pro-rated share of the minimum salary for a one-year veteran (if the player is a rookie, then the rookie minimum is used instead).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap

Since86
02-03-2011, 03:18 PM
I don't believe he was saying they'd cut him and not have to pay him. I think everyone here is educated enough as a fan to realize that the NBA has guaranteed contracts and that terminating them without pay is essentially impossible.

Maybe it's semantics, but doesn't "releasing" a player mean having the ability to cut them, like they do in the NFL?

That's what I think of when someone say's "release."

DGPR
02-03-2011, 03:23 PM
Maybe it's semantics, but doesn't "releasing" a player mean having the ability to cut them, like they do in the NFL?

That's what I think of when someone say's "release."


The team is just "releasing" that player from their duties to that team, and they are allowed to go play for another team and get paid by 2 different teams at the same time. The NFL isn't a good example because a lot of their contracts aren't guaranteed and if a player is cut then they are SOL if no other team wants to sign them ala Marvin Harrison.

edit: Also shouldn't Marvin Harrison be able to sue the pants off of Jim Irsay since he was never convicted of any wrongdoing? I know the Colts didn't say they released him because of his legal troubles, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't think that, right?

Since86
02-03-2011, 03:26 PM
The team is just "releasing" that player from their duties to that team, and they are allowed to go play for another team and get paid by 2 different teams at the same time. The NFL isn't a good example because a lot of their contracts aren't guaranteed and if a player is cut then they are SOL if no other team wants to sign them ala Marvin Harrison.

I guess my problem is the way you structured the argument then. Because the NBA doesn't need any excuse to buy out a player's contract. If they don't want them there because their breath stinks, they can simply buy out their contract and move on. They don't need a reason, like continual trouble with the police.

I think that's where I got confused. It looked as if the two issues were being combined, when they don't need to be.

EDIT: See that's my issue with your statement. NFL contracts are partially guarantee'd. When a player is released, the team still has to live up to a financial obligation. The NFL just makes the financial impact less than what the NBA does. If you just release a player in the NBA, you owe them all the money or whatever percentage the two sides agree on.

Marvin has no legal ground to stand on, regardless if he has charges brought against him or not.

LetsTalkPacers
02-03-2011, 04:01 PM
This is just my guess but I picture him being agressive and getting 8 points and showing that his size makes him our best defensive PG option. Most thought he was to slow but will be pleasently surprised when they realize he is quick enough to make it in the NBA as a point, but his size and strength will set him apart defensively from our other PGs.
:crazy:

bphil
02-03-2011, 04:24 PM
My guess is he'll get hurt in the first game he plays in and then we won't have to worry about him anymore.

Sookie
02-03-2011, 04:52 PM
The Pacers still have to pay Stephenson regardless. So why would they cut him before finding out the verdict?

Whether a good lawyer would win that case or not, it doesn't make sense for the Pacers to do it, unless he gets stupid again (er..third time)

Then add in that Larry clearly likes Lance, and probably isn't willing to give him up yet because of accusations, before he sees him on the court.

I think Larry's making a mistake here for several reasons. But if he's found not guilty, then Larry would probably be quite upset at himself for letting Lance go.

DGPR
02-03-2011, 05:03 PM
Regardless of what happens to Lance in a legal standpoint, I would still be happy to see him play because he does have talent and quite a bit of potential. Him being accused of a crime or having a girl do things to him in a hotel room that's not Disney friendly, still can't take away from him being a talented basketball player. I'm not in any big hurry to see Lance play because for one, I'm more excited about Paul George's future and two, I think Lance needs to mature some more and sitting him on the bench and letting him watch the grown ups play sends a signal that he has to earn his spot, it isn't given to him.

Also I really wish that they would cut the point guard crap with Lance anyways. He looked OK as a point guard in the Summer League against a bunch of scrubs and D-League players and that's great, but he's going to get victimized on a nightly basis against guys like D Williams, Paul, Rondo, and Rose.

Day-V
02-03-2011, 05:11 PM
Also I really wish that they would cut the point guard crap with Lance anyways. He looked OK as a point guard in the Summer League against a bunch of scrubs and D-League players and that's great, but he's going to get victimized on a nightly basis against guys like D Williams, Paul, Rondo, and Rose.

See, I'm withholding judgment on the whole "Should Lance play PG" argument. I wanna see how he does with extended minutes. Who knows, maybe he could become a Jalen Rose-type of PG for us in that he plays the back-up 2-Guard and then can switch over to the Point for a few minutes once Reggie (Paul) subs in. And who knows, maybe his size could be an advantage against the bigger guards like Rose and Williams? Darren gives up 30 pounds to Rose and almost 50 to D-Will. Lance is bigger and taller than both.

DGPR
02-03-2011, 05:16 PM
See, I'm withholding judgment on the whole "Should Lance play PG" argument. I wanna see how he does with extended minutes. Who knows, maybe he could become a Jalen Rose-type of PG for us in that he plays the back-up 2-Guard and then can switch over to the Point for a few minutes once Reggie (Paul) subs in. And who knows, maybe his size could be an advantage against the bigger guards like Rose and Williams? Darren gives up 30 pounds to Rose and almost 50 to D-Will. Lance is bigger and taller than both.


Yeah but the alternative was to let Travis Best pound the ball for 20 seconds at a time. :unimpress

Day-V
02-03-2011, 05:18 PM
Yeah but the alternative was to let Travis Best pound the ball for 20 seconds at a time. :unimpress

Ugh, I cringe whenever I see that name.


Hicks should add "Travis Best" to the Word Filter.

BRushWithDeath
02-03-2011, 05:24 PM
Does it really matter to you what he does in his own personal life?

While you might think that *** play is disgusting, that's your opinion. It's not illegal. If Lance doesn't care that people know his sexual fetishes, or whatever, then why should you?

It says more about our society, and looking down on him because of what he likes, than it say's about Lance. We don't need to be a nation full of judgemental squares. Obviously I think we don't need to go to the extreme other way either.

But what Lance likes to do in his own private time is his business. As long as it's legal, then so be it.

The only thing I have a problem with, is that he got a hooker. There are plenty of women out there that are more than willing to engage in activities out there, who you don't have to pay.

You are missing my point. I don't care about what he was doing with the hooker. I care about who he chose and the extreme lack of judgement that went along with that decision.

The fact that he wanted his prostate tickled is of zero consequence to me. The fact that he knowingly chose to pay for it to a whore who has a track record of publicizing her NBA conquests is absurdly bad decision making.

When a member of the organization told me prior to the staircase incident that Lance was "the dumbest person I have ever met", I didn't think much of it.

But for somebody on strict probabtion to hookup with this jezebel literally days after a story about her and Ronny Turiaf comes out is flat out retarded.

DocHolliday
02-03-2011, 06:24 PM
It's kind of funny with the hype being built up surrounding Stephenson's debut it's getting to the point to where it feels like watching the WWE and waiting for Hulk Hogan to return. Maybe a bit of hyperbole there but it's starting to feel like that. My opinion if it happens cool..if not life goes on. Although if Lance comes out to "I am a real american" and rips his jacket off Hogan style that'd be kind of cool. :)

A better comparison is probably the hype that surrounded a guy from a smaller company, ECW, named Tazz. The guy had monster hype from the few that had seen him. He knew how to make the moves look good and do crazy spots. Problem is, when he got to the big time (WWE) everyone else realized he was 5'8" and didn't have what it takes to make it in the big league.

Justin Tyme
02-03-2011, 06:47 PM
People still can't seem to grasp that we can't release him based on being charged, no matter how obvious that case could be. So no, we couldn't have cut ties with him yet.

If you haven't been found guilty by a court of law, then you're not guilty. An employer cutting ties with an employee who has only been accused, and not found guilty would set up for a serious lawsuit that would not be won by the Pacers.


As far as letting Stephenson go, they could have cut him to keep Rolle.

They can cut him and sign someone from the NBADL.

They can trade him.

If the Pacers did a trade where they have to take back an extra player, they can cut Stephenson to make room for the extra player.

They could cut him for the recent video he was in.

There are numerous reasons the Pacers could cut Stephenson w/o it having anything to do with his current legal problem. Apparently, Bird is in love with Stephenson's "potential" just like James White. The Pacers cut White b4 the season started after signing him to a 2 year guaranteed contract, so I'm not buying the "you can't cut Stephenson b/c of his legal problem."

gummy
02-03-2011, 07:11 PM
When a member of the organization told me prior to the staircase incident that Lance was "the dumbest person I have ever met", I didn't think much of it.


Really? :(

Well if he's retained I hope the dumb is concentrated outside the basketball court (hmmm...if that's the best I can hope for it's kind of scary) and doesn't translate into "low bb iq" ala Ike Diogu. Players that have physical talent but simply do not have the mental fortitude to learn and execute plays are depressing.

90'sNBARocked
02-03-2011, 09:36 PM
but he's going to get victimized on a nightly basis against guys like D Williams, Paul, Rondo, and Rose.

LOL

You just named the top PG's in the league, who would victimize 95% of the league just like Lance

pacer4ever
02-03-2011, 09:37 PM
LOL

You just named the top PG's in the league, who would victimize 95% of the league just like Lance

no one in the league can D up Derrick Rose , Russel Westbrook ect. you just have 2 hope they are having an off night.

Naptown_Seth
02-03-2011, 11:17 PM
I think the reason he hasn't played is the court trouble honestly. He really shot himself in the own foot with that. Hopefully for all parties concerned, he can overcome that and become Dwade 2.0.
If Vogel is talking about playing him this season then I'd say that the court stuff isn't actually the issue. Considering our own complaints about the other players and that clearly JOB only caved on Price and George near the end from what was likely front office pressure, I'd say that Lance was the most raw of all the young players and therefore way, way off JOB's radar.


The team line on him if it was court issues could easily be played off as "we just have too many young players already being worked with to work Lance in right now". I mean Price and George just started getting time.

BRushWithDeath
02-04-2011, 07:28 AM
Really? :(



Unfortunately.