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Basketball Fan
02-01-2011, 05:02 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-orlando-magic-news-0201-20110131,0,1339273.story


Defending a coach
Van Gundy is the son of a basketball coach and the brother of a former NBA coach.

So, it should come as no surprise that Van Gundy doesn't like the Indiana Pacers' decision to fire Jim O'Brien after the Pacers started their season with a 17-27 record.

What was surprising was that Van Gundy, apropos of nothing, opined about the Pacers' move after his postgame press conference ended Sunday night.

"What'd you guys think of Jim O'Brien getting fired?" Van Gundy asked reporters. "Do you guys look at that team in Indiana and say, 'Wow, they have great talent? They should be winning a lot more games?' No? Me either. I was just checking.

"I like [Pacers interim coach] Frank Vogel. I hope he does a good job, but all I'm telling you is Jim O'Brien's a damn good basketball coach, and they're not 10 games under .500 because they've got great talent in Indiana and he wasn't getting it out of 'em."

Trophy
02-01-2011, 05:04 PM
He always has something to say about this team.

BPump33
02-01-2011, 05:05 PM
He always has something to say about this team.

He always has something to say about everything.

Since86
02-01-2011, 05:06 PM
Didn't he get a little miffed when Phil Jackson offered up his opinion on the Magic just a couple of weeks ago?

"No comment" would have worked out nicely.

Roaming Gnome
02-01-2011, 05:07 PM
:unimpress

Even though having all that talent down in Orlando might give you some free time to wander off the Magic reservation.... Worry 'bout your own team, Stan!

If it weren't for having Dwight Howard and some nice talent around him.... You and J'OB would probably both be in the cheese line because you're not that good of a coach!

BringJackBack
02-01-2011, 05:10 PM
...Who cares what he thinks? I don't like that all of the coaches are best friends and kiss eachother's asses because it's really stupid. Just like last year Lawrence Frank didn't want to criticize Obie because he wouldn't play Hibbert because, "I love Obie I'm not going to question any of his decisions".

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 05:14 PM
Ron Jeremy needs to STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish Shaq would bytch slap him

O'Braindead
02-01-2011, 05:16 PM
This is a player's league. If the coaches can't conform to the player's strengths and personalities, what purpose do they serve? SVG didn't get the memo.

pwee31
02-01-2011, 05:17 PM
Man do I wish we could make a playoff push and somehow draw the Magic in the 1st round now.

cdash
02-01-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm already sequestered in my house for the day, so I feel safe from the masses when I say this: I think Jim O'Brien actually knows the game really, really well. I think he has a good basketball mind and I really don't think he is a bad coach. Like all NBA coaches, he wore thin on his players over the course of time, and his personality issues were more to blame than anything else. His criticisms, communication issues, and stubbornness were his main issues here. Which is why I think he could make a really good college coach; his authoritarian leadership could be welcomed in the college game, and Rick Pitino has already proven that chucking up threes is a recipe for success in NCAA circles.

Dr. Awesome
02-01-2011, 05:22 PM
Quite frankly, SVG has the best tool in the NBA with Dwight Howard. The fact that he hasn't won with him yet makes me wonder if SVG is a good coach. How many stars to they need to bring in then flush out to make it work?

LA_Confidential
02-01-2011, 05:23 PM
Dont get me wrong, The Magic are a beast in the east but with all their talent they werent looking too hot at one point in the season, so they made a move.

Same thing for us. We arent looking too hot so we mad a move.

What makes this even stupider, lol, is he asked the media about this, not the other way around.

Douche?

ilive4sports
02-01-2011, 05:24 PM
Didn't Stan say we were a pretty good team after our first match up with them?

Gremz
02-01-2011, 05:25 PM
Thanks for those words of wisdom Stan Van Gandhi.

Dr. Awesome
02-01-2011, 05:25 PM
I'm already sequestered in my house for the day, so I feel safe from the masses when I say this: I think Jim O'Brien actually knows the game really, really well. I think he has a good basketball mind and I really don't think he is a bad coach. Like all NBA coaches, he wore thin on his players over the course of time, and his personality issues were more to blame than anything else. His criticisms, communication issues, and stubbornness were his main issues here. Which is why I think he could make a really good college coach; his authoritarian leadership could be welcomed in the college game, and Rick Pitino has already proven that chucking up threes is a recipe for success in NCAA circles.

I completely disagree.

I could go into why I disagree but it has all been said before so I'll just leave it at this: A smart coach would have played to his players strengths, not try to change them to fit his style of game. Whether you agreed with his style or not(I certainly did not), it was very stupid of him trying to get round pegs to fit into square holes. That is not something a smart coach would do.

Since86
02-01-2011, 05:30 PM
I'm not going to go into detail and give examples, but I'll say I disagree too.

A good coach doesn't tell his players to shoot long jump shots with 17secs left, and expect good offensive results while telling his defense to force quick, long contested jumpshots.

He contradicts himself on the very fundamentals.

LA_Confidential
02-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Didn't Stan say we were a pretty good team after our first match up with them?

That's protocol in the NBA. No one will say "Oh, those guys suck." Not even about the Cavs.

Were better than the Cavs btw.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 05:31 PM
He always has something to say about everything.

Fixed.

I'm not surprised SVG would back Jim O'Brien, and to that I say: Stan, you can have him, and you can both stay the hell away.

cdash
02-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Yes, I figured you guys would disagree. I don't care to hear your reasons because I've heard them a million times before. That's my opinion and I doubt outside of Pacers circles that I'm alone there.

Dr. Awesome
02-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Yes, I figured you guys would disagree. I don't care to hear your reasons because I've heard them a million times before. That's my opinion and I doubt outside of Pacers circles that I'm alone there.

Not many people outside of Pacers circles have endured what we have over the past 3 and a half seasons...

Don't get me wrong, I hope Jim lands on his feet somewhere else...like Cleveland, Chicago, Milwaukee, or Detroit for a few examples...

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Didn't Stan say we were a pretty good team after our first match up with them?

sure did

Shade
02-01-2011, 05:36 PM
The delicious irony here is, according to Bird, it was Stan's team that ultimately got Jim fired. :laugh:

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 05:41 PM
i just hope stan is wrong about the talent level. ;)

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 05:42 PM
Quite frankly, Ron Jeremy has the best tool in the NPA
Fixed.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Interpretation: "Damn, the Pacers are gonna require effort to beat next time."

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Didn't Stan say we were a pretty good team after our first match up with them?


"I think Indiana is good," he said. "We are on the road playing and it was a very tough loss for them. Both teams played well. Id be surprised if Indiana isnt a playoff team, with (Roy) Hibbert getting better and (Danny) Granger. Well see them in the postseason."
Stan Van Gundy after Pacer vs Magic Nov 20th, 2010

http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/pacers-playoff-team-says-magic-coach-van-gundy-1451750/

Hicks
02-01-2011, 05:51 PM
"I think Indiana is good," he said. "We are on the road playing and it was a very tough loss for them. Both teams played well. I’d be surprised if Indiana isn’t a playoff team, with (Roy) Hibbert getting better and (Danny) Granger. We’ll see them in the postseason."
Stan Van Gundy after Pacer vs Magic Nov 20th, 2010

http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/pacers-playoff-team-says-magic-coach-van-gundy-1451750/

So apparently Jim O'Brien's responsible for Roy and Danny playing well.....

BringJackBack
02-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Coachspeak. :zip:

Sookie
02-01-2011, 05:55 PM
I think Jim O'brien knows statistics. And I think that's respected amoungst some other coaches.

Phil Jackson on the other hand, has publically poked fun of Jim O'brien. (I don't know what Jimmy was doing..)

Phil understands there is far more to basketball then that. The players are people, not robots. As a coach you are just as much of a psychiatrist as you are an Xs and Os (which, JOB sucked at that too) guy.

Jim O'brien, was honestly, the worst coach I've seen college or pro, men or women. Why? Because the guy simply lacked common sense when it came to the game of basketball.

edit: and by the way, it's pretty obvious that the players are happy JOB is gone. That says enough. Jeez, Tyler Hansbrough spoke out about him. TYLER. Has Tyler even talked since he's gotten here?

cdash
02-01-2011, 05:56 PM
Not many people outside of Pacers circles have endured what we have over the past 3 and a half seasons...

Don't get me wrong, I hope Jim lands on his feet somewhere else...like Cleveland, Chicago, Milwaukee, or Detroit for a few examples...

Yeah, he's not near as bad as you and many, many others make him out to be. After awhile the chic thing to do around here was to blame every single problem on him. I don't think he did a great job, but I don't think he was anywhere nearly as bad as our fanbase made him out to be.

Midcoasted
02-01-2011, 05:58 PM
Fixed.

I'm not surprised SVG would back Jim O'Brien, and to that I say: Stan, you can have him, and you can both stay the hell away.

Agreed times ten. Stan is just a hater. I think we have a very, very talented young core. To say we are a team that should be no better than 10 games under .500 is a real slap in the face. Sure coming into this year we all knew that being at this position could be a reality, espescially under O'Brien. But the way O'Brien got us to this point was with very unsound decisions, and I maintain he lost these players over a month ago.

SVG is a blind hater who needs to STFU. I will almost bet anything this team does not finish 10 games under .500 for the remaining games. I expect us to win as many as we lose. The reason you ask? Paul George. It's become pretty relevant to me in the past 2 weeks, and espescially last night after JOB's reigns were finally lifted, Paul George is already the most talented Pacer we've had at getting to the rim that I have ever seen in my lifetime.

Add this to the fact that he is 20 years old and I'm starting to think Granger may quickly become the second best player on this team. Maybe even 3rd behind Hibbert or Collison, and Hansbrough isn't no slouch either. He may be the most phyiscal scoring option we've ever had as a 6th man, very Anotonio Davis esque, with a better shot and knack to get to the line.

I'll say it again. SVG is a blind hater. The future has never looked brighter here in Indiana, while I'm confident the Magic under SVG will never win a championship.

Hibbert
Hansbrough
McRoberts
George
Granger
Rush
Stephenson
Price
Collison

with almost half of our cap space coming free and expiring deals that could net us something of value? I'd literally take that all day over Orlando's situation at the moment. I learned from many years of being a Pacers fan that a team that loses in the playoffs is no different than teams that don't make the playoffs, other than the team in the playoffs gets the "choke" title and a worse draft pick.

I want a championship here in Indiana, and I believe that by the time Paul George is 25 years old, we may not only have a shot, but we may bring one home to Indiana!!!:dance::buddies:

But of course I'm living under the presumption our young talent is almost tops in the league and that this talent will keep developing.

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 06:01 PM
Basically just a coach standing up for another coach. There is some truth to what he is saying though

Dr. Awesome
02-01-2011, 06:01 PM
Yeah, he's not near as bad as you and many, many others make him out to be. After awhile the chic thing to do around here was to blame every single problem on him. I don't think he did a great job, but I don't think he was anywhere nearly as bad as our fanbase made him out to be.

You can't put me into that category. You were on RealGM when I said after 3 games that he was a bad coach and everyone was bashing me for not giving him a shot.

Psyren
02-01-2011, 06:02 PM
I like Stan as a coach, but his comments have always rivaled Rex Ryan.

Mostly ignorant, "I just like to hear myself talk" type of comments.

Screw you, Stan.

wintermute
02-01-2011, 06:03 PM
Kind of sheds light on why SVG reneged on us before the job fell to Obie...

BringJackBack
02-01-2011, 06:03 PM
Basically just a coach standing up for another coach. There is some opinion to what he is saying though

Fixed.

Brad8888
02-01-2011, 06:07 PM
I would venture to guess that SVG still harbors a little resentment (not much, but a little) about what transpired when the Pacers all but had him hired during the days of the two headed monster that was our front office. That might make him more critical of the move, especially when the coach that was fired ran an offensive system with eerie similarities to what he is currently running, not to mention the difficulties the Magic had against the Pacers from time to time during the O'Brien era (feels really good to use past tense regarding the O'Brien era!).

I used to be a big fan of SVG, and was all for hiring him after Carlisle was fired. Now, however, that has changed, and my attitude about him really changed during last year's playoffs against Boston.

cdash
02-01-2011, 06:09 PM
You can't put me into that category. You were on RealGM when I said after 3 games that he was a bad coach and everyone was bashing me for not giving him a shot.

:laugh:

Yes, very true. You were on his case from the very start.

xBulletproof
02-01-2011, 06:10 PM
I think Jim O'Brien is a better coach than most give him credit for on here. However I don't think that's why Bird hired him. I think Bird hired him for his no nonsense approach. At the time we were trying to change the culture of hot heads, and bad behavior. Jim did well at that, and I won't forget that.

However, I don't think Bird ever went out to acquire guys that fit Jim O'Brien the coach. I don't think he cared to either. I really believe Bird just went out to acquire young parts for after O'Brien was gone. The players acquired just never fit O'Brien's system, at all. I don't think that was an accident.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 06:30 PM
If Bird had fired Obie two years ago, after his second year, it would have been better all the way around, although a lot of people may have scratched their heads.

If he had fired Obie mid season last year, he would have diffused a lot of anger and provided the team a much better head start going into the summer.

If he had fired Obie this past summer, much damage would already have been done, but he would have prevented mayhem, near rioting, and paper bags over the head.

Bird chose the worst option. (But not worse than this coming summer, I guess.)

xBulletproof
02-01-2011, 06:35 PM
I fail to see this horrific and irreparable damage that Jim O'Brien has done. This is possibly the greatest exaggeration I've read on this board.

Unless you think possibly losing a few games per year more than the talent level indicated you should is a catastrophic and major damage to the franchise. Which it isn't.

Peck
02-01-2011, 06:46 PM
I'm already sequestered in my house for the day, so I feel safe from the masses when I say this: I think Jim O'Brien actually knows the game really, really well. I think he has a good basketball mind and I really don't think he is a bad coach. Like all NBA coaches, he wore thin on his players over the course of time, and his personality issues were more to blame than anything else. His criticisms, communication issues, and stubbornness were his main issues here. Which is why I think he could make a really good college coach; his authoritarian leadership could be welcomed in the college game, and Rick Pitino has already proven that chucking up threes is a recipe for success in NCAA circles.

I don't disagree with you on a lot of this. I think that Jim (or Jimmy in Bird speak) understands the X's & O's of basketball as well as any coach in the game. I think he is a tireless worker and student of the game and that most coaches are going to go out of their way to send respect towards him probably because he outworks all of them. Byron Scott who seems to have some respect amongst fans is notorious for being a lazy coach who had no problem spending time on the golf coarse instead of working on the team plan. Jim would never EVER do that. I have no doubt that Jim would spend over 12 hours a day doing something related to basketball.

However for all of the above positive traits your statement of "His criticisms, communication issues, and stubbornness were his main issues here" can not be overlooked and shouldn't be. That is part of coaching.

I think Jim may simply be the personification of a person who is to smart for his own good.

This will be the second job in a row now that he has been fired from for the exact same reasons. He either is going to have to adjust his style and personality to fit the pro game or as you said it really might be time for him to look at the college game.

Kegboy
02-01-2011, 06:55 PM
"I think Indiana is good," he said. "We are on the road playing and it was a very tough loss for them. Both teams played well. Id be surprised if Indiana isnt a playoff team, with (Roy) Hibbert getting better and (Danny) Granger. Well see them in the postseason."
Stan Van Gundy after Pacer vs Magic Nov 20th, 2010

http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/pacers-playoff-team-says-magic-coach-van-gundy-1451750/

Nice find. What a buffoon.

BlueNGold
02-01-2011, 07:14 PM
This is a player's league. If the coaches can't conform to the player's strengths and personalities, what purpose do they serve? SVG didn't get the memo.

SVG is underestimating the talent on the team. Not saying this team has the talent to contend right now, but we are closer to a .500 team than where we are right now.

Anyway, it's very good stuff for the bulletin board.

ilive4sports
02-01-2011, 07:21 PM
"I think Indiana is good," he said. "We are on the road playing and it was a very tough loss for them. Both teams played well. Id be surprised if Indiana isnt a playoff team, with (Roy) Hibbert getting better and (Danny) Granger. Well see them in the postseason."
Stan Van Gundy after Pacer vs Magic Nov 20th, 2010

http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/pacers-playoff-team-says-magic-coach-van-gundy-1451750/

Thanks for finding that, I knew he said something along those lines. SVG is a good coach that can't get it done in big games. Riley saw it and replaced him (and other various reasons).

pizza guy
02-01-2011, 07:40 PM
Open letter to SVG:

Dear Stan,

Shut up.

kthxbye

MiaDragon
02-01-2011, 07:42 PM
Ron Jeremy needs to shut it.

cinotimz
02-01-2011, 07:51 PM
Since SVG is such a big fan and given the fact that JOB is now available, SVG is welcome to add JOB to his bench. That way, if SVG again fails to win a title with the abundance of talent he has had, maybe they could fire SVG for failing to win with talent and turn over the team to JOB who is such a great coach.

NapTonius Monk
02-01-2011, 09:40 PM
Stan Van Gundy almost makes me wish that Dwight Howard books the first flight to New york he can get. Then the HedgeHog would know what it's like to coach a talent-light team. Problem is, he'd probably haul his abundant hind quarters out of Orlando right behind him, leaving the good people of Orlando to suffer.

graphic-er
02-01-2011, 09:49 PM
Well it looks like JOB found himself his next JOB. Assistant coach for the Magic.

righteouscool
02-01-2011, 09:57 PM
Yeah, well, he didn't have to watch James Posey play for 20 minutes a game at PF.

Indra
02-02-2011, 02:29 AM
To say that this team lacks talent is short-sighted and downright ignorant. This team has TONS of talent. Unfortunately it's the raw, unpolished talent that won't make you a contender right now, but with the right coach and a few pieces, this team can be a contender. Right now we have enough talent to be a playoff team. The fans know it, the players know it, Larry Bird knows it. I'm going to trust the players and Larry Legend before I trust Al Van Bundy.

CableKC
02-02-2011, 02:53 AM
If SVG thinks so highly of JO'B...he should hire him as an Assistant Coach.

He'd fit right in on a 3pt shooting Team like Orlando.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 02:54 AM
Well it looks like JOB found himself his next JOB. Assistant coach for the Magic.

his personal project would be Ryan Anderson better version of murphy

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 02:55 AM
his personal project would be Ryan Anderson better version of murphy

Wait til you see Dwight out on the 3 point line!

TheDon
02-02-2011, 04:48 AM
Not to beat a dead horse but I really want to say again, I'm really REALLY glad Jim is gone.

thefeistyone
02-02-2011, 09:04 AM
We certainly aren't as talented as Orlando and some of the other tops teams in east, nor did we have a number 1 pick where we could draft a beast of a center to build around. I think with the talent level and experience we have we should be around a .500 level team. Jim got us to 10 games below that and showed 0 improvement over his time here.

He wasn't performing up to expectations so he got canned. Same as any other job.

Stan should mind his own team, didn't he get canned in Miami so Pat Riley could win a title?

DaveP63
02-02-2011, 09:24 AM
I could give a two penny crap about what Stan Van Jeremy has to say.

Larry Staverman
02-02-2011, 09:46 AM
Hey Stan it worked in Miami.

When they fired you they won a championship!

danman
02-02-2011, 09:46 AM
Just a guy sticking up for a friend. It's over. Let it go.

indygeezer
02-02-2011, 09:59 AM
If somehow the Pacer's were to hire Jeff Van Gundy as coach, what would Stan have to say then?

Let's see how respected JOB is, how fast will he gain a job in the NBA? That's how I will measure his greatness.

BTW......I NEVER wanted JOB to be hired in the first place. For me, his hiring took away much of my interest in following the team. His tenure turned out exactly as I expected. I respect JOB as a man for dealing with the personal issues he has to, but he is no coach.




(I have forgotten the SVG hiring story, can somebody enlighten me please)

wintermute
02-02-2011, 10:57 AM
(I have forgotten the SVG hiring story, can somebody enlighten me please)

Not much to the story, as I remember. Supposedly Larry made him an offer to be our next coach, replacing Rick Carlisle. However, SVG turned us down. Instead, he interviewed with Orlando and Sacramento (with Orlando's newly signed coach Billy Donovan bailing out before a game was played), ultimately landing with Orlando.

As we all know, Larry moved on to Obie pretty quickly. The other most talked about candidates then were Jim Boylan and Sam Mitchell I think. Given the quality of the other candidates most of us were relatively happy with SVG or Obie.

owl
02-02-2011, 11:14 AM
Interpretation: "Damn, the Pacers are gonna require effort to beat next time."


True that.


Obrien was not fired because of the Pacers record.

indygeezer
02-02-2011, 12:05 PM
Not much to the story, as I remember. Supposedly Larry made him an offer to be our next coach, replacing Rick Carlisle. However, SVG turned us down. Instead, he interviewed with Orlando and Sacramento (with Orlando's newly signed coach Billy Donovan bailing out before a game was played), ultimately landing with Orlando.

As we all know, Larry moved on to Obie pretty quickly. The other most talked about candidates then were Jim Boylan and Sam Mitchell I think. Given the quality of the other candidates most of us were relatively happy with SVG or Obie.

Then there is no reason he should be bitter toward us if he was the one that looked elsewhere.

brewpopps
02-02-2011, 12:12 PM
True that.


Obrien was not fired because of the Pacers record.My thoughts exactly. These coaches are their own fraternity and they are not gonna bad mouth one of their own. What did anyone expect SVG to say?

PR07
02-02-2011, 01:06 PM
The thing is though is that there IS enough talent on this roster to make the playoffs (that's what we're wanting). The past couple of seasons, you probably couldn't say that. However, if you look at rosters like Philly, Milwaukee, and Charlotte; we are right there. No one was expecting JOB to make this team a contender...however playoffs were a realistic possibility, and we were quickly free-falling out of contention.

TooBigNdaPaint
02-02-2011, 01:46 PM
I completely disagree.

I could go into why I disagree but it has all been said before so I'll just leave it at this: A smart coach would have played to his players strengths, not try to change them to fit his style of game. Whether you agreed with his style or not(I certainly did not), it was very stupid of him trying to get round pegs to fit into square holes. That is not something a smart coach would do.

Ding dong....the witch is dead...the wicked witch is dead!!! Thank the good Lord and whoever REALLY inspired Larry Bird to fire JOB. As good a coach that JOB 'appeared' to be with his SYSTEM, he didn't have the 'common sense' to manage games better nor the common sense on when to substitute nor the common sense on how to develop Pacer young talent (who are obviously MORE superior athletically to the scrubs that were playing major minutes and losing games). I like Frank's attitude and philosophy of playing his young athletic talent because he knows (even if they make mistakes) they'll be playing hard and will make us more athletic on the court. As we all saw, Paul George helped us close out the Raptors when his above-average athleticism (long arms & quickness)

And, you CAN'T tell me that not ACTIVATING Lance Stephenson for the entire season has been good for his development. How many NBA teams do we SEE playing their young studs to give them real game experience which allows them to determine what will work and what will not work against NBA level talent. And, please don't give me the 'defense' argument when you have slow-twitch, one-dimensional, scrubs playing major minutes every night. We all saw Lance's silky smooth jump shot in preseason, his ultra competitive spirit when on the basketball court, and his toughness to go to the rim (knowing he's going to get free throws) whenever the opportunity presented itself.

C'mon Larry.....keep drafting studs but ENSURE your HC will develop and play them. We'd rather watch super athletic players balling and competing at a high level every night than slow-twitch dudes that 'understand the coach's system' but are unathletic, can't defend, can't shoot over 40% most nights, and lose almost every night. Heck, even Danny Granger looks like he's mentally 'given-up' due to all of the LOSING from playing for a FRANCHISE who had a coach that has NO idea on how to develop it's young athletic players. JOB took all of the FUN out of playing basketball for the players and took all of the fun out of watching basketball for the FANS!!!!

Karlton
02-02-2011, 03:24 PM
I completely disagree.

I could go into why I disagree but it has all been said before so I'll just leave it at this: A smart coach would have played to his players strengths, not try to change them to fit his style of game. Whether you agreed with his style or not(I certainly did not), it was very stupid of him trying to get round pegs to fit into square holes. That is not something a smart coach would do.

Actually, if the round pegs are small enough they fit in square holes just fine.

Maybe that's why we kept seeing smallball...:happydanc :laugh:

Karlton
02-02-2011, 03:25 PM
My thoughts exactly. These coaches are their own fraternity and they are not gonna bad mouth one of their own. What did anyone expect SVG to say?

Nothing...?
:hmm: