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Pacerfan
02-01-2011, 02:11 AM
Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone
-Jeff Rabjohns

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110201/SPORTS04/102010323/Vogel-quick-show-he-s-no-O-Brien-clone?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Fever|s

After the Indiana Pacers shootaround Monday morning, new coach Frank Vogel huddled with members of the team's public relations staff.

As a few suggestions were made concerning his media appearances, Vogel said, "Before I commit to that, let me ask you this: Is that going to upset our guys?"

As he steps into his first head coaching role, replacing the dismissed Jim O'Brien, Vogel seems to have his players' interest at the forefront.

The Pacers interim coach had excellent communication with the players during his 31/2 years as an assistant. He plans to keep that as the head coach.

"The way I deal with players now is no different than how I've dealt with them my whole coaching career," Vogel, 37, said as he prepared his team for Monday's game against Toronto, a 104-93 win. "I try to be upfront, try to show them that I'm on their side, that I'm trying to help them do whatever they can do to succeed in their careers.

"I think that's the difference in pro coaching versus college or high school, where you're the dictator. In the NBA, you have to sell to these guys that you're in their corner to help them, to organize and tie their whole team together. They all know that winning helps their career, and I want them to know I'm on their side and in their corner."

That's one way Vogel's approach differs from O'Brien, who was much more authoritarian.

"Coach (O'Brien) had a very strong voice, so it's a little different without him," Pacers starting shooting guard Mike Dunleavy said. "Frank has been a little more involved this year, especially with the younger guys, and guys like me, Danny (Granger) and Jeff (Foster), who have been around him for 31/2 years, we have a good rapport with him, so it should be a seamless transition."

While Vogel has been with O'Brien throughout his coaching career, Vogel stressed he is not a clone. He and O'Brien had healthy disagreements at times over approaches to using players.

Vogel has more of a positive voice while O'Brien would criticize players publicly.

"I think there's going to be some different messages," Vogel said. "In terms of the delivery, I have to be myself. Coach O'Brien and I have different personalities, as does every human being. We're close friends and always will be, but I have to be myself."

O'Brien handled most coaching tasks himself, from writing game keys on the marker board to handling pregame video setup in the locker room. Vogel plans to delegate.

It was evident Monday. Vogel listened to his assistants at the start of long timeouts before talking to the players, something O'Brien didn't do.

"A lot of the advice I've gotten the past 24 hours has come along those lines: 'Don't think you can do it all yourself,' " Vogel said. "We've got a great coaching staff, so I intend to use them."

Vogel handled a media blitz Sunday and Monday, doing 10 interviews and five radio station appearances in 24 hours.

As for strategy, he said Monday he wants to re-establish center Roy Hibbert in the post and have Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansbrough turn a perceived weakness -- power forward -- into a strength. He also wants a consistent rotation, which hasn't been seen this year.

Vogel's positive reinforcement was evident Monday. When Hibbert forced two Toronto turnovers, Vogel yelled to Hibbert, "Give me more of that, Roy, give me more."

Vogel met one-on-one with every player Monday, meetings he and the players said went well. Hibbert, whose playing time varied wildly under O'Brien, seemed to regain his stride, getting 24 points and 11 rebounds in 30 minutes.

"It's great because he has confidence in me," Hibbert said. "I had that at one time in myself, but I lost that after a while. You make a mistake and it's hard when you come out of the game and you're on the bench half the game and don't get to make an impact. It's nice, but it's a responsibility and I'm willing to take that on."








You can't help but like and root this guy on. He is exactly the type of guy that needs to coach this team right now. He adds stability and positivity into an environment that has been wholly unstable and negative. He really does care about these guys.

xBulletproof
02-01-2011, 02:19 AM
This guy is quickly growing on me. Every time I hear or read something, it's exactly what I'd like to hear. It's certainly early, but I haven't seen any signs that he will contradict himself either.

Kemo
02-01-2011, 02:27 AM
Ya, I have always liked Vogel as a person and what little I have read about ,or heard about him..
But I felt under O'Brien , that he wasn't allowed to shine much. Due to JOB's (as mentioned in article) "authoritarian" approach..

It appears our players really respect him, and I think they will really play their hearts out for the guy.. mark my words..

Peck
02-01-2011, 03:42 AM
I've heard that O'Brien would not let his assitant coaches do much but I kind of wrote that off as people just picking on O'Brien because they didn't like him.

But now to find out he wouldn't even let them write the keys to the game on the chalk board or set up video? I'm thinking Jim needs to spend some time being an assistant himself for awhile just so he can maybe get a dose of humility.

This article and the Tyler interview I think is probably a lot closer to the feelings of most of the players than the P.R. video's released by PS&E, I'm not blaming them for those vids.

DonSwanson
02-01-2011, 04:12 AM
This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.

As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."

It's just too much. O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue? Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.

Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.

I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.

eric1516
02-01-2011, 09:21 AM
There's a lot to be said of a coach that is well known for his player relations.

Vogel knows the importance of imparting confidence on the players but also challenging them when he needs to. The ice bucket dunking and meeting one on one win each player definitely showed how he is respected but can also joke with the guys.

I know we still have a lot to learn about Vogel but he's off to a great start on and off the court.

Indra
02-01-2011, 09:25 AM
This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.

As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."

It's just too much. O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue? Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.

Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.

I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.

Wait...are you Jim O'Brien's dad?

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 09:26 AM
reminds me of Rick carlisle.

DonSwanson I wouldn't say it quite like that, but there is a lot of truth in your post, so i say thanks.

I'm trying not to mention the former coach or even broach the topic

rexnom
02-01-2011, 09:26 AM
"It's great because he has confidence in me," Hibbert said. "I had that at one time in myself, but I lost that after a while. You make a mistake and it's hard when you come out of the game and you're on the bench half the game and don't get to make an impact. It's nice, but it's a responsibility and I'm willing to take that on."

Yikes. Coach or no coach, Roy needs to find confidence in himself that exists outside of what other people say.

BringJackBack
02-01-2011, 09:38 AM
I can't wait to see what our team looks like after the trade deadline and with Vogel at the helm for the remainder of the season. Last nights team looked like the November team and that feels good in itself. We don't know how much that has to do with solid rotations/gameplan etc. or if it has to do with higher morale but this is extremely refreshing.

hoops_guy
02-01-2011, 09:52 AM
Wow. Where to start.



This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.
You are saying that like he didn't deserve it..

As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."
Did you not see the difference in the team? Did you not see our best players close out the game? Did you not read the Hansbrough interview?!

It's just too much.
No, its not. At least not for Pacers fans. I can't speak for Jim O'Brien fans though..

O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue?
What? The issue at hand was that O'Brien didn't give them freedom, not a listening issue. Nice attempt at spin though.

Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.
Most head coaches in the NBA wouldn't coach SO BAD THAT LARRY BIRD FIRED THEM. Larry Bird seriously had to fire Jim O'Brien.. The same Larry Bird that makes Donnie Walsh look impatient. An assistant would be insane to agree with him.


Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.
"Hibbert has been terrible."

"We have no post prescence."

"We figured out that Price can play, so we are going to sit him."

"Irrelevant."

And the quote you gathered up seriously is irrelevant because a couple of weeks after he praised Hibbert, he contradicted himself and bashed Hibbert.

I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.
This has to be a joke. It HAS to be. Do you seriously feel the need to defend Jim when he isn't even on the team anymore?!

:hmm:
How can one defend the indefensible.

Go post here if you still feel the need to defend him: jimobriendigest.com

BillS
02-01-2011, 09:55 AM
It probably should be pointed out that a coach who deferred to the players' feelings and wishes was NOT what was needed when the previous coach was hired.

Vogel is in a position to be successful because he (so far) has players who are reasonable in their feelings and actions.

Other than that, I am happy to see a coach who communicates well with players. We'll see how well that translates to the Media after the honeymoon is over.

Ozwalt72
02-01-2011, 10:01 AM
A lot of times, younger teams experience growth when there's a coaching change. Not because of the different coaches exactly, but because of a new voice and a new feel. O'brien was here for 3.5 years. Vogel's an unproven coach in this league and might never have another head coaching job after this stint as interim, but there's a very real possibility that our team grows under him.

Its like...uh...cutting the split ends away so that your hair grows back long and bouncy and reaches its epic upside. - Jay Bilas' hair stylist.

beast23
02-01-2011, 10:05 AM
This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.

As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."

It's just too much. O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue? Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.

Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.

I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.What would you have expected to see? Most readers have been sick to their stomachs regarding the team they follow; so the writers are going to right feel good articles following the change.

But let's take a look at the article a little more closely. There are a few quotes from Vogel and Vogel is an apparent friend of Jim O'Brien. With that in mind, I don't think that Vogel is going to state anything in his contrast of his style with O'Brien's other than what is true. We have not seen Vogel attempt to put the dagger into O'Brien's back in any interview that he has been in yet. Therefore, I would be inclined to accept those things he has stated so far... until proven otherwise anyway.

I agree with you in part. I do think we will see more articles of the type in this thread. Afterall, aren't we going through what one might call a "honeymoon"? Reports are almost always good during that stretch of time. But even so, that doesn't mean that the honeymoon isn't the reality.

But already the contract in style IS a welcome difference. Just think, Vogel actally praises a players performance during games... and after. Let's contrast that with referring to the player or his performance as "irrelevant" the next day. Positive reinforcement? I'm not sure that I've seen that associated with a player for a long time. Well... at least 3-1/2 years.

You mention other coaches that have been critical of players through the years... and I agree. But I don't think I've ever seen a coach do it in the way that O'Brien does. It's like he goes straight for the jugular rather than attempt to temper his negative statements with positive ones. Like I've said before, he could easily have said things like "Paul George had a great offensive game, but has a lot of work ahead of himself on the defensive end because he was losing his man constantly." Instead, he simply says "Paul's game was irrelevant." It's so important with most young players to temper the bad with the good. Throw them a bone as you are attempting to correct things. O'Brien hardly ever did, at least not publicly. There was never any gray area with him; it was either all bad or it was all good.

So, I'm glad to see the "fluff". Whether we win or lose, I probably won't be surprised to still be reading "fluff" regarding the coach in April any more than I am now. He is different than his predecessor in how he deals with players. And for this young team is a good, good thing.

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 10:05 AM
I know many were interested in what Mark and Slick might say once Jim O'brien was gone. I listned to their pregaame discussion and they did not mention anything negative or positive about Jim. Just that you knew it was coming

travmil
02-01-2011, 10:19 AM
O'Brien never listened to his assistants?

You should at least be fair if you're going to make a post like this. The article said that Vogel first listened to his assistants before addressing his players during long timeouts which is something that JOB did not do. They were taking a specific example using the timeouts, for all we know the only example and highlightingit. You're acting like they painted JOB with a broad brush and never listened to his assistants. That's NOT what was said. Very nice spin job though.

graphic-er
02-01-2011, 10:26 AM
I'd just say this...of course Vogel is going to get a lot of media coverage, and of course he is going to get alot of positive spin starting out. You have to realize these last 2 days have been the most significant development in Pacers Basketball in 3 years. The media wants in on it. Hell, Kravitz, Well, and Rabjohns have had to essentially write some of same stories week after week, year after year. I'm surprised that they didn't have a standard boilerplate of phrases to work from after having to write so many articles about the Pacers and how they suck so bad.

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 10:38 AM
But already the contract in style IS a welcome difference. Just think, Vogel actally praises a players performance during games... and after. Let's contrast that with referring to the player or his performance as "irrelevant" the next day. Positive reinforcement? I'm not sure that I've seen that associated with a player for a long time. Well... at least 3-1/2 years.



Not sure about praise during a game. Never sat that close to know. But I think the after game stuf is overblown. Vogel last night after the game said Roy's defense wasn't very good in the first half.

sure the irrelevant comment was made, and yes Jim said in early December this year that Roy wasn't having a very good year. but jim made a lot of positive remarks about his players after games of course those don't make the news

naptownmenace
02-01-2011, 10:41 AM
It seems that Coach Vogel might be our Scott Brooks or Monty Williams. A guy who's been an assistant for many, many years and has worked well individually with players and will be more of a player's coach.

The one thing I really respect about coaches like Popovich, Carlisle, and Phil Jackson is that they constantly involve their assistants during timeouts and practices.

I remember before the season started watching the Lakers training camp on NBATV and I was really surprised at how much work Phil delegated to his assistant coaches. He would give brief instructions here and there to the team and then step back and let his assistants run and organize the drills. Phil has a commanding presence but he's not dogmatic and negative during practices.

Hopefully, Frank Vogel will pattern himself more after these coaches and less after Jim O'Brien. So far, so good!

Freddie fan
02-01-2011, 10:46 AM
Given that Vogel was an O'Brien assistant for so long, the question of whether he'd be more of the same was obvious, as many people on this site mentioned. The media needed to address that question.

Vogel has obviously been very different than O'Brien so far in the tone and content of his initial comments about the team and its players, and in how he used players in last night's game. His demeanor and approach to working with people appears to be quite different. For the media to report this is clearly their job and I don't see any hyperbole in the way the story in the Star is written.

You can be sure that members of the media will question some of Vogel's decisions and capabilities sooner or later as the team's situation develops. People here will complain about that, as well.

I give the Star high marks for its coverage of this situation. Some people here were all over Kravitz last week for his column, complaining that it didn't really say anything new. But while those people were mostly saying that there was no doubt that O'Brien would coach for the rest of the year, Bob nailed it in saying the time had come for the Pacers to make a change.

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 10:48 AM
It seems that Coach Vogel might be our Scott Brooks or Monty Williams. A guy who's been an assistant for many, many years and has worked well individually with players and will be more of a player's coach.

The one thing I really respect about coaches like Popovich, Carlisle, and Phil Jackson is that they constantly involve their assistants during timeouts and practices.

I remember before the season started watching the Lakers training camp on NBATV and I was really surprised at how much work Phil delegated to his assistant coaches. He would give brief instructions here and there to the team and then step back and let his assistants run and organize the drills. Phil has a commanding presence but he's not dogmatic and negative during practices.

Hopefully, Frank Vogel will pattern himself more after these coaches and less after Jim O'Brien. So far, so good!

Just for balance sake. Larry Brown does almost everything himself similar to Jim O'Brien.

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 11:08 AM
Damn the more I read about the way the clown was dealing with the team the more I question Larry Birds decision making for letting this go for this long.

travmil
02-01-2011, 11:11 AM
Just for balance sake. Larry Brown does almost everything himself similar to Jim O'Brien.

You just made JOB look like a very poor coach. If what he does is similar to wht Larry Brown does, Larry Brown must do it INFINITELY more effectively.

Brad8888
02-01-2011, 11:26 AM
The Star is still ultimately at least a part of the pr machine for the franchise. Also, the Star is interested in promoting popular viewpoints to align itself with the most potential readership to both maintain its current base as well as attract new readers. As a result, it behooves the Star to produce pieces from its staff that match the opinions of its readership, at least to an extent.

With those things said it makes sense that, after just one game, and from a coach who has served under both Pitino and O'Brien in Vogel, that the differences are going to be highlighted. A coaching style change is what so many people have been begging to have happen for such a long time that readers will eat it up whether it ends up actually being true or not.

I am encouraged by what we have been reading, and some of what was seen last night, just as many others are. But, Toronto is Toronto. Cleveland is Cleveland and hopefully they won't magically catch fire against the Pacers and break their losing streak. The proof will be in watching Vogel's body of work and how the players end up being utilized in many different situations and against quality opponents, and how consistent the message from the coach ends up being vs. what actually transpires on the court. We really have no actual idea how that will end up playing out, but it will be refreshing to at least focus on a coach that is an unknown instead of a coach who was nearly metronomic in his consistency of being exactly who many of us believed him to be -- a coach who forced players to adapt to his system regardless of whether his players individually had the skills to fit their assigned slot in the system (whatever that slot happened to be at any given time) and then chastised players in the media who either 1) failed to perform to his level of expectations or 2) who happened to perform far better than expected, especially when they did so by not conforming to their respective slot, thereby in essence showing O'Brien up for the world to see, after which the inexplicable long term benchings that ended up being completely predictable occurred.

Regardless, at least the beginning of change has happened, and the future holds hope as a result where there has been very little for several years now. Go Pacers!

Trophy
02-01-2011, 11:30 AM
I really like what I saw last night.

This team revolves around the core guys.

Mike saw limited minutes and Danny didn't play to point where he was breathless.

I like where this half of the season is going.

OakMoses
02-01-2011, 11:31 AM
You just made JOB look like a very poor coach. If what he does is similar to wht Larry Brown does, Larry Brown must do it INFINITELY more effectively.

Because the Bobcats are worse now than they were at the beginning of the season?

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 11:33 AM
Here is confimation by one of the Pacers insiders about the Inside Information that we got two weeks ago from Mackey-Rose


New Pacers coach Frank Vogel also told me he wants to continue his open communication w/players and not have assistants deliver messages.
about 24 hours ago via web

OakMoses
02-01-2011, 11:40 AM
It probably should be pointed out that a coach who deferred to the players' feelings and wishes was NOT what was needed when the previous coach was hired.

Vogel is in a position to be successful because he (so far) has players who are reasonable in their feelings and actions.

Other than that, I am happy to see a coach who communicates well with players. We'll see how well that translates to the Media after the honeymoon is over.

Bill makes an excellent point here. When O'Brien was hired, the makeup of the roster was vastly different.

O'Brien's style obviously didn't mesh all that well with the personalities on this team. This doesn't mean that his way of doing things is wrong, terrible, or stupid.

On the same wavelength, different is not always better. Vogel looks and sounds like a better fit for this roster right now, but that doesn't make him a better coach than O'Brien.

A change was made. Things will be different. Jim O'Brien is a good guy and a good basketball coach, but it didn't work out. I'm sure that Frank Vogel is a good guy and a good basketball coach, and I hope it works out better for the team.

imawhat
02-01-2011, 11:44 AM
They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.

The Pacers part is inaccurate, according to my (and several other) sources.

travmil
02-01-2011, 11:57 AM
Because the Bobcats are worse now than they were at the beginning of the season?

No, I'm talking about the entire body of work. I would list all of Brown's accomplishemtns and compare them to JOB, but you and I both know it would be like comparing JOB's one story ranch to Brown's Empire State Building.

oxxo
02-01-2011, 12:02 PM
So far I like what I've heard and seen from Vogel, though it's still early of course.

Part of that is that I believe that an NBA coach is/should be more of a communicator/manager/teacher than a dictator like in college.

Pacersalltheway10
02-01-2011, 12:07 PM
Isn't Vogel the youngest current head coach in the NBA right now at 37?

Pacerfan
02-01-2011, 12:16 PM
Isn't Vogel the youngest current head coach in the NBA right now at 37?

Yup, replaced Spoelstra as the youngest.

OakMoses
02-01-2011, 12:30 PM
No, I'm talking about the entire body of work. I would list all of Brown's accomplishemtns and compare them to JOB, but you and I both know it would be like comparing JOB's one story ranch to Brown's Empire State Building.

The list of good players that Brown has coached compared to O'Brien would be similar in stature.

I know that O'Brien is not as good a coach as Larry Brown. The point is that good and talented people, working as hard as they can, often fail. That's just the way life works.

Since86
02-01-2011, 02:00 PM
It also should be pointed out that Larry Brown is asked to leave each team, because his team hates him.

Does everyone forget his and Reggie's clashes?

Larry Brown is useful, but he quickly runs himself out of town, and he needs a certain type of team. Jim was here long enough, and he had a type of team that his style wasn't fit for.


And honestly, who in the F cares about Larry Brown anymore? It's been 12years, and his replacement is the one who took that team to the Finals, because he wore out his welcome even with that team.

It's time to move on from the Larry Brown lovefest.

BPump33
02-01-2011, 02:02 PM
It also should be pointed out that Larry Brown is asked to leave each team, because his team hates him.

Does everyone forget his and Reggie's clashes?

Larry Brown is useful, but he quickly runs himself out of town, and he needs a certain type of team. Jim was here long enough, and he had a type of team that his style wasn't fit for.


And honestly, who in the F cares about Larry Brown anymore? It's been 12years, and his replacement is the one who took that team to the Finals, because he wore out his welcome even with that team.

It's time to move on from the Larry Brown lovefest.

They say in "Winning Time" that the team hated Brown and they rallied together around that.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 02:17 PM
They say in "Winning Time" that the team hated Brown and they rallied together around that.

True, and it's sad, and obviously it doesn't last.

Since86
02-01-2011, 02:22 PM
True, and it's sad, and obviously it doesn't last.

No joke. Larry Brown shouldn't be a role model for coaches who want to actually keep a job.

koVe
02-01-2011, 02:24 PM
Yup, replaced Spoelstra as the youngest.

actually, I think the NO coach is younger than Spoelstra

cdash
02-01-2011, 02:27 PM
actually, I think the NO coach is younger than Spoelstra

Monty Williams is 39, Spoelstra is 40, so yeah, you are right.

mb221
02-01-2011, 02:36 PM
I really like what I saw last night.

This team revolves around the core guys.

Mike saw limited minutes and Danny didn't play to point where he was breathless.

I like where this half of the season is going.

Danny played right at his season average of 36 MPG. Mike was slightly under his average of 30 MPG playing 26. I wouldn't call that limited minutes.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 04:02 PM
Damn the more I read about the way the clown was dealing with the team the more I question Larry Birds decision making for letting this go for this long.


I'm not really sure Bird would know. Remember, he thought Harter was still doing the "D" when he wasn't.