PDA

View Full Version : Hansbrough a Free Man



Pacerfan
02-01-2011, 01:40 AM
Hansbrough is a Free Man
-Mike Wells

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/01/hansbrough-is-a-free-man/

THE `BURBS – I wouldn’t have been shocked if I walked into the locker room on Monday and saw Tyler Hansbrough wearing a muscle t-shirt that had “I’m Free” written across the front of it.

To say Hansbrough won’t miss Jim O’Brien would be an understatement.

Hansbrough, like some members in the organization, didn’t care for O’Brien constantly tinkering with his rotation.

“It was frustrating because you didn’t know what was going to happen,” Hansbrough said. “You didn’t know how to prepare. It was one of those things where if I wasn’t going to play, I wish I knew.”

Team president Larry Bird said during his presser Sunday that he wished Hansbrough played more earlier this season.

Hansbrough eventually moved into the starting lineup but only after a lot of frustration had been built up from a number of different parties.

Frank Vogel said Monday that he’s rolling with Hansbrough and Josh McRoberts as his two power forwards.

McRoberts will start for the time being because Vogel wants Hansbrough to provide some scoring off the bench. He’ll be teamed with Jeff Foster, who is more of a blue-collar worker, in the second unit.

“It’s going to be fun now,” Hansbrough said. “Now I know how to prepare for each game. There’s no more guessing. I can be mentally and physically ready instead of not knowing and being out in the dark.”

Here’s what Vogel said after the players gave him the game ball.

“They threatened to dunk my head into some of their little ice buckets they sink

their ankles into, then they threatened to dump those on me. I said, ‘There’s

two of them there, so whoever dumps me is going to get one themselves. So they

did not do that, but yeah, I got the game ball.” –Vogel





Hahaa...seems like Tyler wasn't prepped in the PR after the firing. But it just seems like he's letting out the frustrations of the entire team... Mike Wells must have felt he hit the jackpot with this interview.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 01:44 AM
"Coach obrian was trying to mix my game up and play different styles"

"I aam happy i get to play like me"

"We never got a clear message on our roles now we can better prepared"

"Coach Vogel told me to just play my game and be agressive"

via Kevin Lee interview

HOOPFANATIC
02-01-2011, 02:00 AM
Yeah I heard that Kevin Lee interview as well. I was thinking that if Tyler said that they sure ad heck better not stick the microphone in Josh's face.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 02:03 AM
Yeah I heard that Kevin Lee interview as well. I was thinking that if Tyler said that they sure ad heck better not stick the microphone in Josh's face.

ya J-mac is a bit of a hot head but i kind of like it means he cares

Pacerfan
02-01-2011, 02:13 AM
Yeah I heard that Kevin Lee interview as well. I was thinking that if Tyler said that they sure ad heck better not stick the microphone in Josh's face.

Haha, yup that's the first thing I thought. If Hansbrough has all this to say about JOB I'm sure Josh has a lot more to say about him.

PaceBalls
02-01-2011, 02:16 AM
So much BS has been spewed the last few days. I'm glad Tyler is telling it like it is.

IndySDExport
02-01-2011, 02:54 AM
I really like this interview.

We get tyler putting points up off the bench which he's shown to be pretty adept at recently. Josh sticking with Roy, keeping a good duo together. Everyone comfortable with their roles and consistent rotations.

God, if this keeps up I might just crack a smile.

Ozwalt72
02-01-2011, 10:04 AM
I'm thinking Tyler was asked pointed questions and just responded honestly as opposed to just going off and ranting about JO'b. I hope so, anyway.

Indra
02-01-2011, 10:09 AM
I love Tyler Hansbrough. He doesn't do anything half-assed. Even complain about his coach.

Deadshot
02-01-2011, 10:12 AM
I really like playing Hibbert/McRoberts and then Hansbrough/Foster together. While Hans could definitely start, Josh moves the ball so much better and this really creates better looks for Roy. Last night I thought Tyler became a bit of a black hole, but as long as he produces, I think it could work well (not to mention that PG was looking good out there with him as well).

Aw Heck
02-01-2011, 10:18 AM
I think a consistent rotation from here on out will do wonders for the young guys. Apparently, Hansbrough in particular.

graphic-er
02-01-2011, 10:28 AM
Well I hope these young player can get a little more professional as the season wears on and stop bashing their former coach in the media.

pwee31
02-01-2011, 10:33 AM
“It was frustrating because you didn’t know what was going to happen,” Hansbrough said. “You didn’t know how to prepare. It was one of those things where if I wasn’t going to play, I wish I knew.”
“It’s going to be fun now,” Hansbrough said. “Now I know how to prepare for each game. There’s no more guessing. I can be mentally and physically ready instead of not knowing and being out in the dark.”I don't see where Tyler bashed O'Brien at all? Because he said it was frustrating for him b/c he didn't know how to prepare or if he was going to play?

Or b/c he said it's going to be fun now b/c he doesn't have to guess anymore and can just prepare and play his game?

BPump33
02-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Well I hope these young player can get a little more professional as the season wears on and stop bashing their former coach in the media.

JOB didn't refrain from bashing them. Do you think he was unprofessional?

Edit: Most of the O'B supporters always said that OB was just being truthful when talking about the players in the media. Well, now Tyler is being truthful.

PacersHomer
02-01-2011, 10:40 AM
Now I just imagined Tyler Hansbrough doing his best "Andy just escaped from prison" Shawshank Redemption impersonation.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 10:50 AM
Well I hope these young player can get a little more professional as the season wears on and stop bashing their former coach in the media.

If only their former coach was so professional.....

graphic-er
02-01-2011, 10:51 AM
I don't see where Tyler bashed O'Brien at all? Because he said it was frustrating for him b/c he didn't know how to prepare or if he was going to play?

Or b/c he said it's going to be now b/c he doesn't have to guess anymore and can just prepare and play his game?

Its one game so far. They beat a bad team. These types of comments are useless. Criticizing the former coach does not help them win games. Both of those statements were backhands at how JOB was running things. Now go string together a good record over the course of February and sure you can talk about how much better the atmosphere is. But right now its one game and one practice.

These handful of players are subtly letting on that JOB was a neopolianic in nature, and just a tyrant of a coach. I wouldn't be surprised if next we have McRoberts say that Jim tried to come on to him in the showers and thats why he was in a suit every other game.

graphic-er
02-01-2011, 10:53 AM
If only their former coach was so professional.....

2 wrongs don't make a right?

Indra
02-01-2011, 10:54 AM
Well I hope these young player can get a little more professional as the season wears on and stop bashing their former coach in the media.

The coach is allowed to publicly bash his players through the media, but the players aren't allowed to say anything once he's fired?

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 11:07 AM
The coach is allowed to publicly bash his players through the media, but the players aren't allowed to say anything once he's fired?


This is one of the reasons their former coach is gone! Bird didn't like Jimmy's unprofessional bashing of the players in the media. I don't see what Tyler said was bashing at all.

RWB
02-01-2011, 11:08 AM
Don't sweat what Tyler said, frankly it was irrelevant.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 11:11 AM
Well I hope these young player can get a little more professional as the season wears on and stop bashing their former coach in the media.



By all means, lets hold the players to a higher standard than Jimmy had! "Do as I say not as I do" O'Brien is now IRRELEVANT.

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 11:19 AM
Hansbrough looked different last night, he was happy and was finally showing some emotion, is nice to see that, welcome back Tyler.

Trophy
02-01-2011, 11:20 AM
Last night, Chris mentioned that this is DC's 5th NBA head coach.

He was under Byron Scott, Jeff Bower, Monty Williams (before being traded), Jim O'Brien, and now Frank Vogel.

Minus the turnovers, he played well.

I think Frank wants him to play like himself too and that's how we're going to win.

Tyler played really well too and was pumped like he was in college.

imawhat
02-01-2011, 11:24 AM
One of my #1 criticisms of O'Brien was the mixed signals I assumed he was sending with playing time.

I think this goes to show: never underestimate the value of clear cut responsibilities. I think it's a 5-10 win difference on its own, especially coming from our recent situation.

oxxo
02-01-2011, 11:40 AM
What's been said is nowhere near 'bashing'. If anything, the players have been more than professional so far.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 12:08 PM
2 wrongs don't make a right?

I don't think Tyler's wrong.

FlavaDave
02-01-2011, 12:32 PM
Bashing a coach:

"JOB was a moron. How am I supposed to be good if I don't know when I'm playing? He couldn't coach a .500 team in the D-League."

Not bashing a coach:

"I prefer consistent rotations so that I can better prepare for success."

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 12:48 PM
For the record the clown is not the Pacers coach anymore so I think is fair for anybody to talk about him even if their comments are no positive.

xBulletproof
02-01-2011, 12:55 PM
My only fear in freeing Tyler of O'Brien is that he's going to shoot like a maniac. Last night I believe he took 13 shots in 15 minutes. Slow down there. He almost shot 50% last night, but I fear if he's less picky with his shots, that's going to change.

We'll see how it goes, but I'm a little nervous about it.

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 01:00 PM
My only fear in freeing Tyler of O'Brien is that he's going to shoot like a maniac. Last night I believe he took 13 shots in 15 minutes. Slow down there. He almost shot 50% last night, but I fear if he's less picky with his shots, that's going to change.

We'll see how it goes, but I'm a little nervous about it.

That should be his job if he is in the second unit.

BlueNGold
02-01-2011, 01:27 PM
I suspect if a person has no idea from one day to the next what their boss planned to do...and then ripped you in the press because things didn't go well...a reasonable reaction is to question some things. That's all Tyler did and that was the right thing to do.

A little refreshing honesty.

presto123
02-01-2011, 01:30 PM
My only fear in freeing Tyler of O'Brien is that he's going to shoot like a maniac. Last night I believe he took 13 shots in 15 minutes. Slow down there. He almost shot 50% last night, but I fear if he's less picky with his shots, that's going to change.

We'll see how it goes, but I'm a little nervous about it.



That's exactly what I posted last night in another thread. I like Tyler but if his shot is not falling don't want him bombing away all the time. Sometimes he gets in the lane and throws up shots that have no chance of going in. Probably trying to draw the foul and I do love him being aggressive.( being himself LOL)Ironically Josh is shooting less and playing more unselfish lately. Anyone notice how many open shots(and 3 pointers) Josh has been passing up lately? Way different than he was in November.

pwee31
02-01-2011, 01:35 PM
Its one game so far. They beat a bad team. These types of comments are useless. Criticizing the former coach does not help them win games. Both of those statements were backhands at how JOB was running things. Now go string together a good record over the course of February and sure you can talk about how much better the atmosphere is. But right now its one game and one practice.

These handful of players are subtly letting on that JOB was a neopolianic in nature, and just a tyrant of a coach. I wouldn't be surprised if next we have McRoberts say that Jim tried to come on to him in the showers and thats why he was in a suit every other game.

Once again, I don't see how he criticized the coach or how it was even a backhanded response, he simply expressed his concern over the uncertainty of situations, never mention O'Brien's name once.

If it was Gordon Hayward you would understand where I'm coming from :rolleyes:

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 01:46 PM
My only fear in freeing Tyler of O'Brien is that he's going to shoot like a maniac. Last night I believe he took 13 shots in 15 minutes. Slow down there. He almost shot 50% last night, but I fear if he's less picky with his shots, that's going to change.

We'll see how it goes, but I'm a little nervous about it.


He was shooting so much last night I begin to wonder if he never saw a shot he didn't like. He was forcing shots as if he'd never get to shoot again. I'm not interested in seeing him become a blackhole. There are 4 other players on the floor besides him. BB is a team sport, there is no I in the word team.

Naptown_Seth
02-01-2011, 01:47 PM
JOB didn't refrain from bashing them. Do you think he was unprofessional?

Edit: Most of the O'B supporters always said that OB was just being truthful when talking about the players in the media. Well, now Tyler is being truthful.
No kidding.

Unprofessional to say you struggled because you were never sure how to prepare? Hardly.

How about this instead...

"Tyler, Jim did guide a Celtics team to the ECF once, so don't you think he's proven to be a good coach?"

Tyler - "Irrelevant. He's not been a good coach and I'm sure he'd agree with that. He really needs to improve his coaching, it's been pretty bad so far including at Boston."

Now that's the JOB style.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 01:51 PM
That should be his job if he is in the second unit.


His job is to be a "team player" that can score in the post, reb, and play "D".

I'd like to see the stats on how many shots were taken when he was on the floor vs how many shots he took.

Naptown_Seth
02-01-2011, 01:54 PM
My only fear in freeing Tyler of O'Brien is that he's going to shoot like a maniac. Last night I believe he took 13 shots in 15 minutes. Slow down there. He almost shot 50% last night, but I fear if he's less picky with his shots, that's going to change.

We'll see how it goes, but I'm a little nervous about it.
As I said during the last (pointless) Josh vs Tyler debate, Tyler's a black hole right now. It's a problem. This doesn't mean it's not adjustable, but right now they run plays that end with him, period.

If teams double down on Tyler or he gets stopped on his first and second move he will keep holding the ball trying to get his score. He shoots A LOT per minute.

The Tyler FGA/Assist ratio as a starter is running 10 to 1.
Josh runs 2.3 to 1 roughly.


But then Vogel is doing just what several of us have said which is to use Tyler off the bench where being the big shot taker works perfect for the team (and Tyler).

PacersPride
02-01-2011, 01:57 PM
“It was frustrating because you didn’t know what was going to happen,” Hansbrough said. “You didn’t know how to prepare. It was one of those things where if I wasn’t going to play, I wish I knew.”

Frank Vogel said Monday that he’s rolling with Hansbrough and Josh McRoberts as his two power forwards.

“It’s going to be fun now,” Hansbrough said. “Now I know how to prepare for each game. There’s no more guessing. I can be mentally and physically ready instead of not knowing and being out in the dark.”


All of this is just great news to hear!!! Summarizes why Hansbrough has likely been struggling. Many on here are going to change their stance on Hansbrough very soon.

Its going to be fun now for the fans as well!!! Vogel is already a much better coach than O'brien just due to the statement of playing McRob/Hansbro all 48 minutes at PF.

at the end of november obrien should have began implying this, instead of Posey. I sincerelly think Obrien was a worse coach than Thomas. I did not think it was possible.

I apologize to any Obrien supporters, but no regrets, thankful to see JOB gone.

McRob and Tyler are good PF's when they are permitted to PLAY LIKE PFs. I know its one game, and it was Toronto, but the team is good. We could likely be .500 very easily right now under a coach with a clue.

We could sneak up on a team in the playoffs. Playoffs!?!?!?! Playoffs?!?!?!?!

Hicks
02-01-2011, 01:57 PM
As I said during the last (pointless) Josh vs Tyler debate, Tyler's a black hole right now. It's a problem. This doesn't mean it's not adjustable, but right now they run plays that end with him, period.

If teams double down on Tyler or he gets stopped on his first and second move he will keep holding the ball trying to get his score. He shoots A LOT per minute.

The Tyler FGA/Assist ratio as a starter is running 10 to 1.
Josh runs 2.3 to 1 roughly.


But then Vogel is doing just what several of us have said which is to use Tyler off the bench where being the big shot taker works perfect for the team (and Tyler).

First of all, how often does Tyler get doubled, and do we have video of what happens when he does? No, him attacking the paint where there are other defenders is not what I'm talking about. I mean Tyler gets the ball, and there are immediately (or very close to that) two defenders on him before he does anything.

Secondly, don't compare a scorer to a non-scorer with this FGA/Assist stuff, that's just wrong. Especially when the non-scorer's biggest asset is his unusually high passing ability. That's almost like comparing the FG% of a garbage man and a shooter.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 02:01 PM
Also, just what is the expected FGA/Assist of a SCORING power forward (not a Dale / Josh garbage man type) supposed to be, anyway? I'd like to know.

I'm not trying to argue Tyler doesn't pass much, but it annoys me to see it 1) Presented like it makes him somehow awful 2) Compared with a non-scorer (and one known for his passing, at that).

xBulletproof
02-01-2011, 02:02 PM
Secondly, don't compare a scorer to a non-scorer with this FGA/Assist stuff.

Agreed. What kind of weird stat is that anyway? That's about as useful as counting how many steps it takes players to run across the floor. "Steps per 94 feet", I'll call it.

You're just making up stats now. :laugh:

presto123
02-01-2011, 02:04 PM
First of all, how often does Tyler get doubled, and do we have video of what happens when he does? No, him attacking the paint where there are other defenders is not what I'm talking about. I mean Tyler gets the ball, and there are immediately (or very close to that) two defenders on him before he does anything.

Secondly, don't compare a scorer to a non-scorer with this FGA/Assist stuff, that's just wrong. That's almost like comparing the FG% of a garbage man and a scorer or a shooter.


Josh proved the other night that he can be a scorer. He doesn't look to shoot first. He looks to pass first. And as good at it as he his this team needs someone like that. He makes a couple of passes a game where I just go wow! The behind the back one last night was sweet as well as the alley oop.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 02:08 PM
Lastly, as long as his FG% is at or near 50+%, I don't think there's justification for complaining about it.

If he goes back to last season's FG% I completely understand, but any night he's at or near 50%, it just seems silly to me.

BillS
02-01-2011, 02:09 PM
If teams double down on Tyler or he gets stopped on his first and second move he will keep holding the ball trying to get his score. He shoots A LOT per minute.

Last night he wasn't just holding the ball trying to score, there were a number of plays where he was just outside the high post clearly looking for someone to pass to but no one was getting to the right angle when they moved. Hard to tell if he was positioned wrong when he picked up ther dribble or if teammates weren't moving far enough.

Also fixable, but some of those shots were because an alternative didn't appear.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 02:09 PM
Josh proved the other night that he can be a scorer.

He did?

Also, are you telling me you think of Josh McRoberts as the kind of guy where you draw up plays to get him the ball and you ask him to score one on one? Because if not, he's not a scorer.

And that's fine, by the way. Josh is a good player for other reasons.

xBulletproof
02-01-2011, 02:10 PM
Lastly, as long as his FG% is at or near 50+%, I don't think there's justification for complaining about it.

If he goes back to last season's FG% I completely understand, but any night he's at or near 50%, it just seems silly to me.

That's exactly where I am. I'm afraid the freedom will lead to that, but if it doesn't, then Tyler's got a much better future as a scorer in the NBA than I thought. He'd be a potential 6th man award winner down the road, I believe.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 02:11 PM
Agreed. What kind of weird stat is that anyway? That's about as useful as counting how many steps it takes players to run across the floor. "Steps per 94 feet", I'll call it.

You're just making up stats now. :laugh:

I suspect if Josh wasn't on the team, this stat would never get brought up for our big men.

PacerHound
02-01-2011, 02:20 PM
These handful of players are subtly letting on that JOB was a neopolianic in nature, and just a tyrant of a coach. I wouldn't be surprised if next we have McRoberts say that Jim tried to come on to him in the showers and thats why he was in a suit every other game.

Thanks for the laugh! They have been few and far between this season but I could not help myself when reading this. I am not being sarcastic but smiling even as I write. :laugh:

Sookie
02-01-2011, 02:25 PM
Tyler takes a ton of shots. That's not debatable. And his percentage will drop as teams adjust. So he'll have to learn to pass out. He likes to score. Last night, he ran a pick and pop with DC, wasn't open..so he gave the ball back to DC so that they can run it again and get him open. He likes to shoot. I don't think it's a problem in the second unit, but I don't like it as a starter.

Part of it is the offense that's being run with the second unit. We're trying "point guard does whatever he likes." Price goes.."um....yo Tyler.." runs a pick and pop and that's the end of it. That's not a problem. The Problem comes where Tyler feels like he needs to shoot the ball up whenever he touches the ball. I think that'll change with time. We have to remember, that at this point Tyler and AJ..and arguably Josh..are pretty much rookies still learning (along with PG) they've got to make their adjustments and such. And they have to learn from them.

I'm just happy to see them all play, and I'm excited to watch them learn. It'll be infuriating at times, but that's the joys of a young team.

CableKC
02-01-2011, 02:26 PM
First of all, how often does Tyler get doubled, and do we have video of what happens when he does? No, him attacking the paint where there are other defenders is not what I'm talking about. I mean Tyler gets the ball, and there are immediately (or very close to that) two defenders on him before he does anything.

Secondly, don't compare a scorer to a non-scorer with this FGA/Assist stuff, that's just wrong. Especially when the non-scorer's biggest asset is his unusually high passing ability. That's almost like comparing the FG% of a garbage man and a shooter.
I think that as Hansbrough starts to play more of a promiment role in the 2nd scoring unit....Teams will adjust to applying defensive pressure on him ( much like they have on Hibbert ). At least when it comes to a "facing the basket" jumpshot...I did notice that when the ball got to Hansbrough...more often then not he would take it. Thankfully, he would hit most of those shots.

But I think that as long as Hansbrough:

- is paired with 2 other scoring threats ( Dunleavy and PG...when BRush returns to the Starting Lineup and IMHO Dunleavy should come off the bench as the 6th Man and the 2nd unit )

NOTE - Playing in a lineup with Inferno and Foster didn't help...it only meant that AJ, Hansbrough and PG had to take more of the scoring load.

- starts practicing his passing with McBob and Hibbert
- mixes up his offense ( attack the basket and taking that jumpshot from the FT line )

I think that he'll be okay.

But double-teaming ( likely from whoever is defending Foster ) and/or applying a lot of defensive Pressure is something that Hansbrough will likely face...I think that he should start getting prepared for it.

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 02:28 PM
The Tyler FGA/Assist ratio as a starter is running 10 to 1.
Josh runs 2.3 to 1 roughly.

did this for the team. found it interesting.

FGA/Assist

tyler - 9.9
brandon - 8.6
paul - 6.7
AJ - 6.7
james - 6.4
danny - 6.1
roy - 5.3
djones - 4.8
mike - 4.7
solo - 3.9
josh - 2.5
jeff - 2.4
darren - 2.4
TJ - 1.7

the ones that really stuck out for me were TJ and AJ. i knew AJ never saw a shot he didn't like, but didn't realize it was so bad. TJ takes such a beating on for being selfish, but his rate was the team lowest. by quite a bit.

always thought darren is too eager to shoot also. but his rate is almost as low as TJ's and the same as the non-shooter josh and jeff. the SG's are high also.

PacersPride
02-01-2011, 02:33 PM
He was shooting so much last night I begin to wonder if he never saw a shot he didn't like. He was forcing shots as if he'd never get to shoot again. I'm not interested in seeing him become a blackhole. There are 4 other players on the floor besides him. BB is a team sport, there is no I in the word team.

not directec at justin tyme directly, but ive noticed most who do not like Bird, then go on and not like Hansbrough, its rare you find someone a fan of one or the other but not both.

every shot hansbrough put up last night was for the most part a good shot. the spin on the baseline, FT jumper, and getting offensive rebounds allow you to take a bad shot hoping to get fouled, and tyler does more often than not.

tyler shooting from 15, is my preference over posey bombing away from deep, and even Rush who is just inconsistent as can be when it matters; hopefully it changes with a new coach.

i dont get how ppl can be negative at hansbrough. the kid plays hard, which is not as common as it should be. he played his azz off last night and didnt go soft b/c it was his first game back. whether he is a starter or backup the kid will be a solid role player. i was not a fan of his at UNC, he is the type of player you dislike when you go up against, and you welcome if he is on your team.

how much more muscle can hansbrough add to his frame because im thinking 15-25 more lbs of muscle, with experience, and he is gonna be a force for us eitehr starting or off the bench.

maybe similar to AD.

Strummer
02-01-2011, 02:37 PM
The thing about Tyler is, he takes shots that no one else does. He's got a good midrange game and we need that. When we have Roy down low and the wings looking to shoot threes (spreading the floor!) that leaves room for Tyler to work in the midrange. As long as he's the third option and is shooting open jumpers, I'm happy. Josh can't do that as well. When Tyler is trying to create his own shot, I'm a little less enthusiastic.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 02:42 PM
I think the reason Tyler's shooting doesn't bother me (again, when he's hitting at or near 50%), is I view him on offense like I do a jump shooter. When they get the ball, it's usually for one reason: To put the ball through the hoop. That's just his game.

Not that I don't want him to improve, but it just doesn't bother me that he is who he currently is, either.

Now, if he keeps shooting when the double teams start coming (which, by the way, you do realize this is a compliment to his ability if this does happen), I'll have a problem with that. Unless by some miracle he can STILL hit about 50% in that scenario, which I doubt.

But for now, I don't see a lot of doubles on Tyler.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 02:46 PM
I think the reason Tyler's shooting doesn't bother me (again, when he's hitting at or near 50%), is I view him on offense like I do a jump shooter. When they get the ball, it's usually for one reason: To put the ball through the hoop. That's just his game.

Not that I don't want him to improve, but it just doesn't bother me that he is who he currently is, either.

I don't want him to pass up any open shots. But when he's not open..that's when he can give the ball back..

PacersPride
02-01-2011, 02:46 PM
complaining about hansbro shooting too much is horse****. anyone can clearly see his jumper is not exactly picturesque, but if it goes in what makes the difference. as long as he continues to shoot well, then i have no issues with him shooting.

i would like to see him pump fake that FT line jumpshot, then drive hard to the rim, he is quicker than most PF's.

the rotations are perfect; mcrob plays much better with hibbert. and when rush gets back:

aj, rush, george, hansbro, foster is the 2nd unit ive been hoping to see all season. hansbro will give us scoring down low, and we have scorers in the backcourt as well.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 02:47 PM
I think the reason Tyler's shooting doesn't bother me (again, when he's hitting at or near 50%), is I view him on offense like I do a jump shooter. When they get the ball, it's usually for one reason: To put the ball through the hoop. That's just his game.

Not that I don't want him to improve, but it just doesn't bother me that he is who he currently is, either.
Tyler can basically create his own shot.

Granted, it often ends up being an ugly heave from hie hip, but he usually gets fouled and its all good.

But we have a real paucity of players who can create besides our point guards. Danny isn't so hot at it. There's Roy, and that's about it.

judicata
02-01-2011, 02:47 PM
Well, if we are going to take a look at the assist/field-goal-ratio stat, then I demand we also look at the average-combined-ppg-of-the-other-4-players-on-the-court-when-player-takes-his-shots stat. After all, thats the only fair way to do it.

speakout4
02-01-2011, 02:52 PM
We need to find out what Tyler can do to help the team. In another 15 games he will be starting his second season. I'm just fine with his contributions just now and prefer him over josh. I wouldn't mind seeing the two of them play together with Josh at the 5.

rm1369
02-01-2011, 02:58 PM
I think the reason Tyler's shooting doesn't bother me (again, when he's hitting at or near 50%), is I view him on offense like I do a jump shooter. When they get the ball, it's usually for one reason: To put the ball through the hoop. That's just his game.

Not that I don't want him to improve, but it just doesn't bother me that he is who he currently is, either.

Now, if he keeps shooting when the double teams start coming (which, by the way, you do realize this is a compliment to his ability if this does happen), I'll have a problem with that. Unless by some miracle he can STILL hit about 50% in that scenario, which I doubt.

But for now, I don't see a lot of doubles on Tyler.

When he is used appropriately with the 2nd unit I agree that it's not a problem - its his ideal role. But it is a significant reason I do not like him as a starter. IMO he does not mesh well with the other starters. I believe Seths assist to FGA stat is a valid stat for comparing Josh and Tyler and which unit they should play with. Tylers mindset does not change when he starts and we have better options on the first unit.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 03:05 PM
I don't want him to pass up any open shots. But when he's not open..that's when he can give the ball back..

Mmm... sometimes. Occasionally he's good at attacking his man. The further away from the hoop he is, the more I would agree with this.

judicata
02-01-2011, 03:06 PM
When he is used appropriately with the 2nd unit I agree that it's not a problem - its his ideal role. But it is a significant reason I do not like him as a starter. IMO he does not mesh well with the other starters. I believe Seths assist to FGA stat is a valid stat for comparing Josh and Tyler and which unit they should play with. Tylers mindset does not change when he starts and we have better options on the first unit.

As of today his fg% is higher than all of the other "better options." I see no reason why the first team with Tyler shouldn't run some sets where he is the first option until he proves that he cannot maintain his fg%. I don't care if you strictly prohibit him shooting the ball on other sets to cure his fg-assist ratio (which is my new favorite advanced statistic.)

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Tyler was taking a lot of shots yesterday because he is playing with an unit that can't score well, AJ,DJ,PG and Foster? who do you want doing most of the scoring? AJ and PG are good at giving you some points but they are pretty much rookies and the duo of Foster and DJ is not good at scoring.

I would also mention that a lot of Tyler's shots were like 5 seconds and less shots when his teammates couldn't get open and gave the ball to him to make something happen, for example top of the key pass by AJ(can't remember who) were Tyler only had like 3 seconds and end up taking an extra step but making the shot(he got called for walking).

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 03:13 PM
Tyler was taking a lot of shots yesterday because he is playing with an unit that can't score well, AJ,DJ,PG and Foster? who do you want doing most of the scoring? AJ and PG are good at giving you some points but they are pretty much rookies and the duo of Foster and DJ is not good at scoring.

I would also mention that a lot of Tyler's shots were like 5 seconds and less shots when his teammates couldn't get open and gave the ball to him to make something happen, for example top of the key pass by AJ(can't remember who) were Tyler only had like 3 seconds and end up taking an extra step but making the shot(he got called for walking).

Tyler is pretty much a rookie also. But i dont mind him taking the majority of shots however we should call PnR with Paul a lot more and call more plays 4 him

Pacers4Life
02-01-2011, 03:20 PM
As of today his fg% is higher than all of the other "better options." I see no reason why the first team with Tyler shouldn't run some sets where he is the first option until he proves that he cannot maintain his fg%. I don't care if you strictly prohibit him shooting the ball on other sets to cure his fg-assist ratio (which is my new favorite advanced statistic.)

What youre saying is true.. But you do realize that would leave foster, mcrob, and solo as our only bigs off the bench. None of them can score. The point of the 2nd unit is to be better than the other teams. You do that consistently.. Gonna win somebgames.

We NEED Hans' 12-16 ppg and 4-7 reb.. From our BENCH

judicata
02-01-2011, 03:25 PM
What youre saying is true.. But you do realize that would leave foster, mcrob, and solo as our only bigs off the bench. None of them can score. The point of the 2nd unit is to be better than the other teams. You do that consistently.. Gonna win somebgames.

We NEED Hans' 12-16 ppg and 4-7 reb.. From our BENCH

That is true if you sub 5-in/5-out. Otherwise, you're not going to see alot of Foster/McBob low post action since one starter will rest while the other is on the floor.

I understand the scoring off the bench theory. I really do. I just disagree, and find the determination to make the kid a bench player without giving him a square shot at the starting lineup bizarre.

speakout4
02-01-2011, 03:27 PM
What youre saying is true.. But you do realize that would leave foster, mcrob, and solo as our only bigs off the bench. None of them can score. The point of the 2nd unit is to be better than the other teams. You do that consistently.. Gonna win somebgames.

We NEED Hans' 12-16 ppg and 4-7 reb.. From our BENCH
The solution is to upgrade the bench rather than play Josh with the first unit. The PF position is still a work in progress.

BRushWithDeath
02-01-2011, 03:31 PM
judicata is about 5,000,000 times more upset that Hansbrough isn't starting than Hansbrough is.

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 03:33 PM
That is true if you sub 5-in/5-out. Otherwise, you're not going to see alot of Foster/McBob low post action since one starter will rest while the other is on the floor.

I understand the scoring off the bench theory. I really do. I just disagree, and find the determination to make the kid a bench player without giving him a square shot at the starting lineup bizarre.

I don't care if Hans is starting as long as he is getting the minutes, just look at it this way, Manu Ginonili was SA 6th man for few years until this one, Jason Terry is Dallas 6th man, Ben Gordon was the Bulls 6th man and did an amazing job.

judicata
02-01-2011, 03:35 PM
judicata is about 5,000,000 times more upset that Hansbrough isn't starting than Hansbrough is.

If you have a problem with people taking a position and arguing its merits you're in the wrong place.

Pacerfan
02-01-2011, 03:42 PM
Hansbrough just seems happy to know he will have consistent minutes... we all should be happy about that too and not worry about him starting or coming off the bench.

PacersPride
02-01-2011, 03:44 PM
Hansbrough just seems happy to know he will have consistent minutes... we all should be happy about that too and not worry about him starting or coming off the bench.

im with ya.. was soooo disgusted with obrien for playing posey minutes over both hans and mcrob. now that all the mins at PF are going to tyler or josh.. doesnt matter to me who starts or finishes.

BRushWithDeath
02-01-2011, 03:47 PM
If you have a problem with people taking a position and arguing its merits you're in the wrong place.

I would be fine with that if the position taken for argument was taken with the best interest of the team and not the sole interest of pushing a college bias.

judicata
02-01-2011, 03:54 PM
I would be fine with that if the position taken for argument was taken with the best interest of the team and not the sole interest of pushing a college bias.

I have articulated a number of legitimate and objective reasons why I think Tyler should start. I have not mentioned Tyler or Josh's college careers at all in this discussion or in recent memory. I did rib cdash for his shot at the Heels, but he asked for it (and I didn't tie the discussion to it whatsoever). Yes, I graduated from Carolina and am obviously a fan.

But you have no evidence that I am "pushing a college bias" in this discussion. Honestly, I have no idea how promoting an NBA player to a bunch of anonymous internet people would grant someone utility with respect to their shared university. That would be nearly as pointless as grasping at the intentions of those anonymous internet people without having anything to support my conclusions with.

rm1369
02-01-2011, 04:22 PM
I have articulated a number of legitimate and objective reasons why I think Tyler should start. I have not mentioned Tyler or Josh's college careers at all in this discussion or in recent memory. I did rib cdash for his shot at the Heels, but he asked for it (and I didn't tie the discussion to it whatsoever). Yes, I graduated from Carolina and am obviously a fan.

But you have no evidence that I am "pushing a college bias" in this discussion. Honestly, I have no idea how promoting an NBA player to a bunch of anonymous internet people would grant someone utility with respect to their shared university. That would be nearly as pointless as grasping at the intentions of those anonymous internet people without having anything to support my conclusions with.

The argument I saw was that Tyler shouldn't be marked as a bench player and should be given a chance to be a starter. Maybe I haven seen the entire argument - what other reason should Tyler start and would you adjust the starting lineup to make the starting lineup more balanced?

judicata
02-01-2011, 04:32 PM
The argument I saw was that Tyler shouldn't be marked as a bench player and should be given a chance to be a starter. Maybe I haven seen the entire argument - what other reason should Tyler start and would you adjust the starting lineup to make the starting lineup more balanced?

They are strung out over a number of posts, so here is the cliff notes:

1) Tyler's physical, interior play is not redundant with the other 4 starters, which are all finesse players. Josh is more of a finesse player and less physical than Tyler.

2) Tyler's ability to draw fouls is best used on the other team's best players: their starting interior players.

3) The argument that we need his scoring in the second unit is a myth because the team will not have extended runs with McRoberts and Foster together since it (hopefully) will not use hockey line substitutions.

4) To the extent that 5-in/5-out substitutions are used, there is nothing wrong with being attenuated towards outside scoring with Price, George, and Dunleavy for short stretches. This is especially true when you have Josh and Foster on the boards.

5) He produces more.

6) He has not gotten the same opportunity in the starting lineup that Josh did, and it sucks to lose your slot in the starting lineup due to short term illness. Lets give him 20 and see what we got and how he integrates with the starters with the new coach.

At any rate, I have already stated that the primary concern is getting Posey in a suit. I do take issue with the conclusion that Tyler is necessarily a bench player (especially behind Josh given his production this year), and have argued that position.

speakout4
02-01-2011, 05:03 PM
Josh is more of a finesse player and less physical than Tyler..


I agreed with most everything else that you said. Josh is a bull in a china shop.

rm1369
02-01-2011, 05:07 PM
They are strung out over a number of posts, so here is the cliff notes:

1) Tyler's physical, interior play is not redundant with the other 4 starters, which are all finesse players. Josh is more of a finesse player and less physical than Tyler.

2) Tyler's ability to draw fouls is best used on the other team's best players: their starting interior players.

3) The argument that we need his scoring in the second unit is a myth because the team will not have extended runs with McRoberts and Foster together since it (hopefully) will not use hockey line substitutions.

4) To the extent that 5-in/5-out substitutions are used, there is nothing wrong with being attenuated towards outside scoring with Price, George, and Dunleavy for short stretches. This is especially true when you have Josh and Foster on the boards.

5) He produces more.

6) He has not gotten the same opportunity in the starting lineup that Josh did, and it sucks to lose your slot in the starting lineup due to short term illness. Lets give him 20 and see what we got and how he integrates with the starters with the new coach.

At any rate, I have already stated that the primary concern is getting Posey in a suit. I do take issue with the conclusion that Tyler is necessarily a bench player (especially behind Josh given his production this year), and have argued that position.

Without significant improvement, I dont like Josh or Tyler as a long term starter for the team. I dont believe one is significantly better than the other - just different. I disagree with your points and believe the best basketball I've seen the team play include Josh in the starting lineup. Again, primarily because his skills mesh better, IMO, with the other players - not because he is better and deserves it more than Tyler.

I'm not going to try to argue your reasons. I dont like Duke or NC, so I dont care what school they went to. And I'm sure you believe you are being impartial, but, IMO, you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

judicata
02-01-2011, 05:13 PM
Without significant improvement, I dont like Josh or Tyler as a long term starter for the team. I dont believe one is significantly better than the other - just different. I disagree with your points and believe the best basketball I've seen the team play include Josh in the starting lineup. Again, primarily because his skills mesh better, IMO, with the other players - not because he is better and deserves it more than Tyler.

I'm not going to try to argue your reasons. I dont like Duke or NC, so I dont care what school they went to. And I'm sure you believe you are being impartial, but, IMO, you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Disagree all you want, there is no reason to levy my University against me in an effort to discredit my opinion. My opinions are certainly flawed, and can stand and fall on their own.

presto123
02-01-2011, 05:16 PM
Without significant improvement, I dont like Josh or Tyler as a long term starter for the team. I dont believe one is significantly better than the other - just different. I disagree with your points and believe the best basketball I've seen the team play include Josh in the starting lineup. Again, primarily because his skills mesh better, IMO, with the other players - not because he is better and deserves it more than Tyler.

I'm not going to try to argue your reasons. I dont like Duke or NC, so I dont care what school they went to. And I'm sure you believe you are being impartial, but, IMO, you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.




Good post. That's what I've been saying all along. I don't think one is better than the other but the Team is better when Josh is on the floor partly because of ball movement and floor spacing. But I will say all of you knocking Josh he can also do a lot of things Tyler can't. Like handle the ball full length of the court, shoot the 3, and pass extremely well. I still call it a draw with those two. Don't care who starts but I do think Roy plays better with Josh.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 06:07 PM
My thing is that we need a low post scorer in at all times. We have two: Roy and Tyler.

ilive4sports
02-01-2011, 06:33 PM
The whole we play better with X or Y on the court is really a wash actually. Looking on 82games.com 5 man lineup stats its close. Its actually incredibly close.

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND2.HTM

The more important thing seems to be Rush vs Dunleavy which heavily leans toward Dunleavy.

Wage
02-01-2011, 06:34 PM
Disagree all you want, there is no reason to levy my University against me in an effort to discredit my opinion. My opinions are certainly flawed, and can stand and fall on their own.

Didn't you get the memo? If you think Tyler should start you are a UNC fanboy that hates the Pacers and should honestly just stop posting on this forum.

However, if you think Josh should start, you love the Pacers, apple pie, and America.

rm1369
02-01-2011, 07:06 PM
Didn't you get the memo? If you think Tyler should start you are a UNC fanboy that hates the Pacers and should honestly just stop posting on this forum.

However, if you think Josh should start, you love the Pacers, apple pie, and America.

Hyperbole much?

Wage
02-01-2011, 07:15 PM
Hyperbole much?

Thought it was pretty obvious ;)

Hicks
02-01-2011, 09:00 PM
I agreed with most everything else that you said. Josh is a bull in a china shop.

Josh is no wimp, but Tyler is in his own class of tough.

15th parallel
02-01-2011, 09:15 PM
I find it funny that every Tyler or Josh articles/threads end up as Tyler vs Josh debate. Although they play at the same position, they provide 2 different skill sets and are playing 2 different styles. Josh is a good passer, looks more athletic (keyword: looks), and a finesse type of Pf. Tyler on the other hand is a scorer, a rough, physical player, and good at drawing fouls.

In my opinion, the concept of having to start the game is overrated. Of course, the best player/s start the game, but it doesn't mean all your best players should start. That is why we have those 6th man of the year awards, because there are bench players who are also one of the best players on the team. Manu, Terry, Jamison were starter/all-star quality that has thrived off the bench. For me, it doesn't matter whether josh or Tyler starts. The fact that coach Vogel stated that the PF rotation is only for them to share is all that matters to me.

Regarding Tyler's FGA-to-assist ratio, it is being overblown by some of you. Granted that he takes more shots than the others, you can't deny the fact that he's making most of them in recent games. As I stated before, he's a scorer at PF, so assists are not as significant given his position. Besides, he's shot selection is quite good this season and most of them are close to the basket, so it's not like he's a detriment to the offense and just jacking up shots. Plus he draws fouls because he forces his way inside. If he's not scoring while jacking up shots, that's where you start questioning his passing and being a black hole.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 09:17 PM
Josh is no wimp, but Tyler is in his own class of tough.

I guess Blake Griffen is in the class above Tyler

Anthem
02-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Disagree all you want, there is no reason to levy my University against me in an effort to discredit my opinion. My opinions are certainly flawed, and can stand and fall on their own.

Heh. I happen to prefer Josh as a starter, but that's gold right there.

Anthem
02-01-2011, 09:20 PM
I guess Blake Griffen is in the class above Tyler

Dude, right now Blake's in a class above everybody.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 09:22 PM
Dude, right now Blake's in a class above everybody.

ya, thats what i was implying

Hicks
02-01-2011, 09:35 PM
I guess Blake Griffen is in the class above Tyler

Not really. Being a better player doesn't mean you're tougher. Name me one act of toughness Blake has displayed that you just can't imagine Tyler doing too.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 10:04 PM
Not really. Being a better player doesn't mean you're tougher. Name me one act of toughness Blake has displayed that you just can't imagine Tyler doing too.

just watch him on a nightly basis he will show u his hustle and tuffness.

Name something Tyler has done that makes him the same?

Hicks
02-01-2011, 10:13 PM
I didn't say they were the same, or different for that matter. I don't watch Blake Griffin much at all. He seems tough from what I saw of his college highlights and what little I've seen of him in the NBA. That's all I know.

But I haven't heard of anything Blake has done that makes him sound somehow tougher than Tyler. Doesn't mean they can't be equally tough, doesn't mean he isn't tougher, but I haven't heard of anything or seen anything to suggest that he's somehow tougher.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 10:20 PM
I didn't say they were the same, or different for that matter. I don't watch Blake Griffin much at all. He seems tough from what I saw of his college highlights and what little I've seen of him in the NBA. That's all I know.

But I haven't heard of anything Blake has done that makes him sound somehow tougher than Tyler. Doesn't mean they can't be equally tough, doesn't mean he isn't tougher, but I haven't heard of anything or seen anything to suggest that he's somehow tougher.

Just watch how he is guarded and he still finishes he gets so many tuff rebounds and makes a lot of plays that only a certin typeof player could make.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 10:58 PM
I don't think we're on the same page here.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 11:02 PM
I don't think we're on the same page here.

no just watch more Griffen he will show u he is one tuff balla

BlueNGold
02-01-2011, 11:07 PM
Tyler is tougher than Blake along the same lines as Ron Artest is tougher. Ron and Tyler are just a little more physical. Neither, especially Tyler, are remotely as good as Blake Griffin but toughness is not exactly a strong suit of many basketball players anyway...in comparison to some other sports. Of course, that's comparing lower level athletes...not NBA.

BlueNGold
02-01-2011, 11:09 PM
no just watch more Griffen he will show u he is one tuff balla

Who do you think wins a wrestling match? I think our boy Tyler would take him to the mat.

Of course, Blake would soar over him and dunk all day long...but that doesn't make him any tougher than if he soared over Ron Artest.

presto123
02-01-2011, 11:57 PM
Don't start putting Tyler in Artest's league at this point. In his prime Artest was a monster and All Star caliber both offensively and defensively.

Hicks
02-02-2011, 12:10 AM
:picard:

This isn't about talent.

BlueNGold
02-02-2011, 12:14 AM
This isn't about talent.

I think I got it. Maybe the question should be more specific like: Who wins an arm wrestling match?...or chest bumps the hardest?

OK...sorry but I'm still intoxicated from Sunday's announcement...and no, I have not sipped a drop of alcohol...


:dance:

Peck
02-02-2011, 12:17 AM
While both griffin & hansbrough are tough why does no one ever consider Dwight Howard anymore? I was watching the clippers broadcast and they were asking if anyone had seen someone jump so high & dunk with such force before & all I could do was go yes, quite often actually. Love Blakes game but let's not go crazy here. He is neither stronger or more athletic than Dwight.

Hicks
02-02-2011, 12:18 AM
You know what, forget it. :goodnight:

presto123
02-02-2011, 12:31 AM
:picard:

This isn't about talent.


I know it's about "toughness":rolleyes: Here's a question: What makes Tyler tougher than Foster? Foster's willingness to get in there and bang and scrap is what has kept him in the league this long.

BringJackBack
02-02-2011, 12:38 AM
You know what, forget it. :goodnight:

Exactly how I feel. I don't really understand how this is complicated. :confused:

Hansbrough's game is built around toughness. Think of Charles Oakley, Dale Davis, or Kendrick Perkins.

Blake Griffin's game is built around offense. Sure, he may be tough, but he's not a hard-hat guy. Think of Karl Malone or Tim Duncan.

It reminds me of discussions with my barber years back about how he said that Karl Malone tougher than Dale Davis. Malone was strong, but he wouldn't be going around for loose balls or patrolling the paint like DD or Foster did/does. They may have been equally as tough, but he'd always throw that out the window by saying, "Oh well you have to see it on a nightly basis blah blah."

Another thing; How in the world does every discussion end up about Blake Griffin?

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 12:38 AM
You know what, forget it. :goodnight:

Haha it has been funny reading the last page.

The "tough" being discussed has nothing to do with skill, strength, or talent. It's a mentality. Griffin is tough, but I'd say Han's is just as tough. pacer4ever you seem to be talking more about strength than toughness.

And Peck I completely agree. Dwight Howard is the biggest freak of nature in the NBA imo. He's stronger and more athletic than Blake, who is a freak in his own regard. Dwight is Shaq like strong with crazy athleticism. I wish the NBA would have let him put the rim at 12 feet for the dunk contest.

presto123
02-02-2011, 12:42 AM
Exactly how I feel. I don't really understand how this is complicated. :confused:

Hansbrough's game is built around toughness. Think of Charles Oakley, Dale Davis, or Kendrick Perkins.

Blake Griffin's game is built around offense. Sure, he may be tough, but he's not a hard-hat guy. Think of Karl Malone or Tim Duncan.

It reminds me of discussions with my barber years back about how he said that Karl Malone tougher than Dale Davis. Malone was strong, but he wouldn't be going around for loose balls or patrolling the paint like DD or Foster did/does. They may have been equally as tough, but he'd always throw that out the window by saying, "Oh well you have to see it on a nightly basis blah blah."





Another thing; How in the world does every discussion end up about Blake Griffin?



Like I said: What makes Tyler tougher than Foster?

BringJackBack
02-02-2011, 12:47 AM
Like I said: What makes Tyler tougher than Foster?

But why does it even matter? I'll answer your question anyway.

His post defense is stronger, he is more durable at this point in their careers, he runs the floor harder, he's a bigger presence on the court, and sometimes he'll flat out intimidate opponents. Let's not forget what Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson had to say about him last year.

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 12:52 AM
But why does it even matter? I'll answer your question anyway.

His post defense is stronger, he is more durable at this point in their careers, he runs the floor harder, he's a bigger presence on the court, and sometimes he'll flat out intimidate opponents. Let's not forget what Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson had to say about him last year.

See I don't think that is tougher. Running harder and being a bigger presence has nothing to do with toughness. Thats strength and conditioning. Toughness is not backing down. I think Jeff is as tough as anyone because of his attitude.

Presto is right, Foster is in this league because of his toughness. The dude will throw himself into a fire to help the team win.

presto123
02-02-2011, 12:54 AM
But why does it even matter? I'll answer your question anyway.

His post defense is stronger, he is more durable at this point in their careers, he runs the floor harder, he's a bigger presence on the court, and sometimes he'll flat out intimidate opponents. Let's not forget what Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson had to say about him last year.




OK man.....just asking opinions. Nice response.

BringJackBack
02-02-2011, 12:57 AM
See I don't think that is tougher. Running harder and being a bigger presence has nothing to do with toughness. Thats strength and conditioning. Toughness is not backing down. I think Jeff is as tough as anyone because of his attitude.

Presto is right, Foster is in this league because of his toughness. The dude will throw himself into a fire to help the team win.

Hmm..

I'm not sure. I think of toughness more about defending the paint, leadership, offensive rebounding, not shying away and disappearing for long stretches, and energy. Foster certainly qualifies for that, as well as McRoberts, but I'd just have to put Hansbrough in a league of his own.

I'd also add that Foster is also in the league for post defense and rebounding and not just toughness.

I think we're still making this too difficult my friend. :laugh:

BringJackBack
02-02-2011, 12:59 AM
OK man.....just asking opinions. Nice response.

Lol didn't mean to sound harsh I wasn't upset or anything.

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 01:01 AM
Hmm..

I'm not sure. I think of toughness more about defending the paint, leadership, offensive rebounding, not shying away and disappearing for long stretches, and energy. Foster certainly qualifies for that, as well as McRoberts, but I'd just have to put Hansbrough in a league of his own.

I'd also add that Foster is also in the league for post defense and rebounding and not just toughness.

I think we're still making this too difficult my friend. :laugh:

We definitely are, what else would we do on a non game night though? :laugh:

Both the guys are incredibly tough and its impossible to accurately judge toughness. I can't say one guy is more tough than the other without personally knowing either of them.

presto123
02-02-2011, 01:06 AM
On a side note: does anybody know where Foster makes his residence? Around the Westfield/Carmel area? Only reason I ask is I thought my nephew said someone would see him drinking in the Bridgewater Golf Club bar. That is around Westfield area. I'll have to ask my nephew exactly what he said. It's been a while.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 01:06 AM
While both griffin & hansbrough are tough why does no one ever consider Dwight Howard anymore? I was watching the clippers broadcast and they were asking if anyone had seen someone jump so high & dunk with such force before & all I could do was go yes, quite often actually. Love Blakes game but let's not go crazy here. He is neither stronger or more athletic than Dwight.

What Ralph Lawler raves about is his coordation thats what seprates the 2 Blake can dribble and is more coordatied with the tuffness stength combo and low post game than anyone ive ever seen his size.

xBulletproof
02-02-2011, 01:11 AM
What Ralph Lawler raves about is his coordation thats what seprates the 2 Blake can dribble and is more coordatied with the tuffness stength combo and low post game than anyone ive ever seen his size.

I think you're in love with Blake more than Romeo and Juliet loved each other.

Second, I think your idea of toughness isn't nearly what anyone else's is.

judicata
02-02-2011, 01:12 AM
I define toughness as a player's willingness to do things that make him hurt or feel uncomfortable. I certainly put strength and conditioning in this category, and running the floor. I think Tyler's thing isn't that Foster and Josh cannot be as physical, its that they, and most other humans, lack the fortitude to be so ridiculously unyielding and consistent in doing those little painful things.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 01:17 AM
Exactly how I feel. I don't really understand how this is complicated. :confused:

Hansbrough's game is built around toughness. Think of Charles Oakley, Dale Davis, or Kendrick Perkins.

Blake Griffin's game is built around offense. Sure, he may be tough, but he's not a hard-hat guy. Think of Karl Malone or Tim Duncan.

It reminds me of discussions with my barber years back about how he said that Karl Malone tougher than Dale Davis. Malone was strong, but he wouldn't be going around for loose balls or patrolling the paint like DD or Foster did/does. They may have been equally as tough, but he'd always throw that out the window by saying, "Oh well you have to see it on a nightly basis blah blah."

Another thing; How in the world does every discussion end up about Blake Griffin?

Then u dont watch Blake Griffen the guy is as tuff as they come. Yes Blake has offense that doesnt need tuffness but when it is needed he shows how tuff he is. He gets so many 2nd chance pts and tuff rebs. He is so underrated in that department simply because his post game is so good.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/o1EcPVYy2JM" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 01:19 AM
Then u dont watch Blake Griffen the guy is as tuff as they come. Yes Blake has offense that doesnt need tuffness but when it is needed he shows how tuff he is. He gets so many 2nd chance pts and tuff rebs. He is so underrated in that department simply because his post game is so good.


There is nothing tough in what Blake did on that play. That is just great athleticism and anticipation. No one contested that at all.

O'Braindead
02-02-2011, 01:19 AM
I define toughness as a player's willingness to do things that make him hurt or feel uncomfortable. I certainly put strength and conditioning in this category, and running the floor. I think Tyler's thing isn't that Foster and Josh cannot be as physical, its that they, and most other humans, lack the fortitude to be so ridiculously unyielding and consistent in doing those little painful things.

Jeff Foster has been in excruciating back pain the past three years of his career and has played despite it. He also used to run 15 miles a day (Correct me if I am indeed wrong) to do what it takes to stay healthy-certainly not necessary. He's been patient with the worst of coaches, and has stuck around and stayed loyal despite being stuck with thugs, potheads, losers, and idiots. I think he's easily up on top of the pedestal with Tyler Hansbrough.

I believe that Foster has that ridiculous unyielding and consistent acceptance of pain and misery towards the ultimate goals in both basketball and in life.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 01:20 AM
I think you're in love with Blake more than Romeo and Juliet loved each other.

Second, I think your idea of toughness isn't nearly what anyone else's is.

Ya his game on the court i love i dont think we will see another Blake Griffen type player in yrs he does nearly everything well.


How many games have u seen of Blake's? I think u underrate his tuffness.

presto123
02-02-2011, 01:21 AM
I define toughness as a player's willingness to do things that make him hurt or feel uncomfortable. I certainly put strength and conditioning in this category, and running the floor. I think Tyler's thing isn't that Foster and Josh cannot be as physical, its that they, and most other humans, lack the fortitude to be so ridiculously unyielding and consistent in doing those little painful things.


That's a good way to look at it and by that definition distance and marathon runners are some of the toughest people on Earth. I'm being serious:laugh: You can't imagine the guts it takes to race one of those things going all out. It is seriously painful and you have to be in the right mindset to block out the pain and fatigue. Looking at them the last thing you would think is that they are tough.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 01:22 AM
There is nothing tough in what Blake did on that play. That is just great athleticism and anticipation. No one contested that at all.

I relize that but I cant find video of his 2nd chance pts. His dunks are every where hard to find anything eles. I might make a montage at the end of the season highlighting rebouding postgame and hustle plays and defense.

BringJackBack
02-02-2011, 01:25 AM
P4E, lets tweak the term. Instead of just toughness, how about "mental toughness."

judicata
02-02-2011, 01:29 AM
Jeff Foster has been in excruciating back pain the past three years of his career and has played despite it. He also used to run 15 miles a day (Correct me if I am indeed wrong) to do what it takes to stay healthy-certainly not necessary. He's been patient with the worst of coaches, and has stuck around and stayed loyal despite being stuck with thugs, potheads, losers, and idiots. I think he's easily up on top of the pedestal with Tyler Hansbrough.

I believe that Foster has that ridiculous unyielding and consistent acceptance of pain and misery towards the ultimate goals in both basketball and in life.

Great points. No argument here.

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 01:33 AM
I relize that but I cant find video of his 2nd chance pts. His dunks are every where hard to find anything eles. I might make a montage at the end of the season highlighting rebouding postgame and hustle plays and defense.

Yes hustle thats what is 2nd chance points are. I've watch a good bit of Blake, hell I spent good money to see him in person. He plays with great strength and athleticism. He is smart, he can anticipate getting in there very fast. I'm not saying Blake isn't tough, because he is. But to say his toughness is on a different level than anyone else is wrong.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 01:38 AM
P4E, lets tweak the term. Instead of just toughness, how about "mental toughness."

See i dont know if i can even say that. They both came back frm really diffcult injuries and they both are on the floor diving for loose balls mutliple times per game. I guess I can't really judge thier metal tuffness unless I knew they both on and off the floor. The 2 most mentaly tuff players ive ever seen are Jordan and Bird probly Bird being the tuffest. I guess i might be able to judge that better after thier careers are over im not sure.

BringJackBack
02-02-2011, 01:41 AM
See i dont know if i can even say that. They both came back frm really diffcult injuries and they both are on the floor mutliple times per game. I guess I can't really judge thier metal tuffness unless I knew they both on and off the floor. The 2 most mentaly tuff players ive ever seen are Jordan and Bird probly Bird being the tuffest. I guess i might be able to judge that better after thier careers are over im not sure.

That's fine. But I also consider toughness a player's mental abilities in the clutch (Not shying away), demeanor on the court, willingness to win, etc..

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 01:42 AM
Yes hustle thats what is 2nd chance points are. I've watch a good bit of Blake, hell I spent good money to see him in person. He plays with great strength and athleticism. He is smart, he can anticipate getting in there very fast. I'm not saying Blake isn't tough, because he is. But to say his toughness is on a different level than anyone else is wrong.

I guess it might be because im not use to seeing an MVP caliber player give 110% each possesion even in the regular season. It is refreshing to me. Where as a guy in Tyler a role player at thispoint in time is how he makes his living by hustle and tuffness.

BringJackBack
02-02-2011, 01:44 AM
Jeff Foster has been in excruciating back pain the past three years of his career and has played despite it. He also used to run 15 miles a day (Correct me if I am indeed wrong) to do what it takes to stay healthy-certainly not necessary. He's been patient with the worst of coaches, and has stuck around and stayed loyal despite being stuck with thugs, potheads, losers, and idiots. I think he's easily up on top of the pedestal with Tyler Hansbrough.

I believe that Foster has that ridiculous unyielding and consistent acceptance of pain and misery towards the ultimate goals in both basketball and in life.

ilive4sports and presto, after reading this post I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong. Foster is just as tough as Hansbrough, even though not as effective anymore.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 01:45 AM
That's fine. But I also consider toughness a player's mental abilities in the clutch (Not shying away), demeanor on the court, willingness to win, etc..

they both relly want to win they have allways played that way they leave nothing out there. but how these questions at the NBA level are answered are TBA. Maybe i shouldnt of said a league ahead but i just think Griffen's tuffness and hustle gets over looked by his skill. They are both tuf SOB's

Peck
02-02-2011, 03:20 AM
You see I can't handle all of this tough talk when I am talking about the current NBA. When I was young players like this were tough & in fact this was probably the toughest man to ever play in the NBA.

http://www.blogcdn.com/nba.fanhouse.com/media/2010/11/maurice-lucas-1110-560.jpg

However as I got older the NBA started to have several tough players.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_la2W1OaJGn8/SaRxhd2MIlI/AAAAAAAAAsE/XnCQlaW9J_I/s400/0225charlesoakley.JPG

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/455/053/kevin_willis_short_display_image.jpg?1287585331

http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/news/2000/img/daledavis3.jpg

However if you are going to say you want to combine strength, skill and power all into one then in all honesty how can you ever really top this.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ewBnHq04CRg" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 05:15 AM
Peck I'm only 20, but thank you for that post. Today's NBA is just way too soft and I hate it. I remember watching in the 90's and seeing what I think basketball is. Now there is a foul on every play... My dad just laughs when we watch games together because after a ticky tac foul I always yell "Its ****ing basketball, let them play" I seriously think there was more contect allowed in my youth basketball leagues.

And your post is awesome for the Shaq video. Shaq in his prime, man what a beast. One of my all time favorites. I still think he is the most dominate big man of all time. I think he would beat anyone from any era.

DaveP63
02-02-2011, 08:35 AM
What Peck said...I'm 47 and if you want, you can go back even further and find some more. Nothing against Blake G, very talented, very good, but it ain't even close.

Hicks
02-02-2011, 11:40 AM
That video just reminded me how special it is that I got to see Shaq when he was still SHAQ. The most amazing player you could watch in the league IMO. No one else like him. I know people tell me Wilt, but frankly this guy looks bigger and stronger. Yes, I've read the stories-of-strength surrounding Wilt, and I believe them, but there's nothing in them that I couldn't imagine Shaq doing, too, and with ease.

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 04:24 PM
That video just reminded me how special it is that I got to see Shaq when he was still SHAQ. The most amazing player you could watch in the league IMO. No one else like him. I know people tell me Wilt, but frankly this guy looks bigger and stronger. Yes, I've read the stories-of-strength surrounding Wilt, and I believe them, but there's nothing in them that I couldn't imagine Shaq doing, too, and with ease.

The crazy thing is that everyone always talks about Shaq and his size and strength. But the dude has some great skills. His footwork was tremendous. He had some amazingly quick post moves to. That spin move he would do off the defender's hip putting him right at the basket ready for the pass and an easy dunk was nothing short of beautiful.

Hicks
02-02-2011, 04:31 PM
The crazy thing is that everyone always talks about Shaq and his size and strength. But the dude has some great skills. His footwork was tremendous. He had some amazingly quick post moves to. That spin move he would do off the defender's hip putting him right at the basket ready for the pass and an easy dunk was nothing short of beautiful.

Not only that, but look at how many times he literally brought the ball up the floor HIMSELF, Josh McRoberts style. That's insane at his size.

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 04:37 PM
Not only that, but look at how many times he literally brought the ball up the floor HIMSELF, Josh McRoberts style. That's insane at his size.

Yep, remember a few years ago he did it again in the All Star game? That was some funny **** haha. I think once he retires we will see more respect for him. He's still effective too, he's averaging 9 and 5 with a block in 20 minutes a game.

BlueNGold
02-02-2011, 05:48 PM
Then u dont watch Blake Griffen the guy is as tuff as they come. Yes Blake has offense that doesnt need tuffness but when it is needed he shows how tuff he is. He gets so many 2nd chance pts and tuff rebs. He is so underrated in that department simply because his post game is so good.

There are few times that youth is a disadvantage. This is one of them. This is not your father's NBA.

Sure, Blake Griffin is a tough guy in today's NBA. He may not be as physical as Tyler, but that's irrelevant. Specifically, he's not tough compared to the Dales, Oakleys, Mahorns and Rodmans of the past who made their living from being tough. But no worries. Those guys are at a slight disadvantage in today's NBA...one that Blake Griffin basically owns.

pacer4ever
02-02-2011, 05:51 PM
There are few times that youth is a disadvantage. This is one of them. This is not your father's NBA.

Sure, Blake Griffin is a tough guy in today's NBA. He may not be as physical as Tyler, but that's irrelevant. Specifically, he's not tough compared to the Dales, Oakleys, Mahorns and Rodmans of the past who made their living from being tough. But no worries. Those guys are at a slight disadvantage in today's NBA...one that Blake Griffin basically owns.

We cant compare past era's due to rule changes im sure Tyler and Griffen would pound on people all day but in todays NBA that would be a foul which makes me :cry:

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 05:54 PM
We cant compare past era's due to rule changes im sure Tyler and Griffen would pound on people all day but in todays NBA that would be a foul which makes me :cry:

I don't think they would be as tough as Dale was. I think they would **** their pants at the site of Dale, I know I would. He was one scare mofo