PDA

View Full Version : What did you like/dislike from Vogel?



Pages : [1] 2

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:06 PM
I did this in the other forum.. So yeah

-Josh played almost 33 minutes and he never camped at the three point line. I love that.
-Collison was more ball dominant. Great thing, even though he didn't play well.
-Paul George and Roy closed the game.

Discuss.

Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 11:11 PM
they did a lot of high low with josh, Danny feeding Roy who was able to get good position right in the midle of the lane. Nice job of keeping Roy on the move

effort, intensity was good.

I thought the defense was fair (the Raptors are really bad)

Interesting to see Vogel try to slow the guys down.

CT Pacer
01-31-2011, 11:11 PM
One thing I want is to see the man get mad a little... he may have but I didnt see it maybe you guys did? I think as far as the rotations go he was spot on..

Hicks
01-31-2011, 11:13 PM
I liked a lot.

The players had issues (turnovers, sloppy play), but I liked the coach:

DC was allowed to be himself.
More pick and rolls.
Hibbert was given more looks and more patience.
Josh and Tyler ate up all of the power forward minutes.
Paul George got to finish the game after performing well.
The rotation was less hectic (less subs less often).
99% small ball free / No James Posey.
AJ remains the backup PG.
Early in the game, we were in a good 'attack mode' where we forced the action, leading to passes made after the defense had to react, which lead to some really good looks on the perimeter, inside-out.

A lot for me to like tonight. A lot.

Hicks
01-31-2011, 11:14 PM
One thing I want is to see the man get mad a little... he may have but I didnt see it maybe you guys did? I think as far as the rotations go he was spot on..

IMO he doesn't need to get mad to be an effective coach.

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:15 PM
I also liked that Dahntay played. I do think that he is underrated around here just because he's in his 30's and he dribbles a lot.

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:15 PM
they did a lot of high low with josh, Danny feeding Roy who was able to get good position right in the midle of the lane. Nice job of keeping Roy on the move

effort, intensity was good.

I thought the defense was fair (the Raptors are really bad)

Interesting to see Vogel try to slow the guys down.

I love the way Vogel plays inside out and values each possesion the ma didnt lie he said they were gonna go 2 Hibbert a lot more. I love this type of b ball some call it boring I call it great

Roaming Gnome
01-31-2011, 11:17 PM
I loved how we rode Roy at the end because they had really no answer for him. I also loved the way Paul George didn't just camp at the perimeter waiting for the ball to come out to him.

vnzla81
01-31-2011, 11:18 PM
I also liked that Dahntay played. I do think that he is underrated around here just because he's in his 30's and he dribbles a lot.

I think he is playing because Rush is hurt

Kegboy
01-31-2011, 11:18 PM
I also liked that Dahntay played. I do think that he is underrated around here just because he's in his 30's and he dribbles a lot.

I loved that he hit that first 3. It was like, "Why the **** didn't he play me!"

Of course, he missed the second, but at least now he doesn't have to worry about that keeping him off the damn floor.

CT Pacer
01-31-2011, 11:18 PM
IMO he doesn't need to get mad to be an effective coach.

This is true but when a ref makes a bad call I'd like to see him stick up for his players a little more and give the refs some heat... not so much getting mad at the players, that's all. Don't get me wrong I think he did a terrific job and I'm rooting for him just as much as the rest of you.

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:18 PM
IMO he doesn't need to get mad to be an effective coach.

Ya I love the way he didnt panic when they made thier run. Also love how he didnt get mad when Collison threw it away with about 4mins left he just told him to slow the tempo down and be patient. JOB probly would have blown a gasket a benched Paul and DC2 on the play.

ilive4sports
01-31-2011, 11:19 PM
I like that he played the game to our players strengths rather than make the players play to the system

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:19 PM
I loved how we rode Roy at the end because they had really no answer for him. I also loved the way Paul George didn't just camp at the perimeter waiting for the ball to come out to him.

About Paul I really think that JOB wasnt letting him play his game and let him be agressive

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:19 PM
I think he is playing because Rush is hurt

True, but at least Vogel didn't strictly stick with Granger, Dun, and George.

Kegboy
01-31-2011, 11:21 PM
I think he is playing because Rush is hurt

Oh, no doubt. But I wouldn't be surprised if Bird told Vogel, "We're stuck with this guy because of his contract, try and find a role for him."

spazzxb
01-31-2011, 11:21 PM
I also liked that Dahntay played. I do think that he is underrated around here just because he's in his 30's and he dribbles a lot.

I respect him but we have a ton of wings. I would be surprised if he plays much once Rush comes back.

CT Pacer
01-31-2011, 11:22 PM
True, but at least Vogel didn't strictly stick with Granger, Dun, and George.

Dumb question...but what about giving Posey a few minutes at the 3? Too slow?? If he's too small for the 4 and too slow for the 3 should he even dress?

Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 11:22 PM
I love the way Vogel plays inside out and values each possesion the ma didnt lie he said they were gonna go 2 Hibbert a lot more. I love this type of b ball some call it boring I call it great

we did have 25 turnovers

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:24 PM
Dumb question...but what about giving Posey a few minutes at the 3? Too slow?? If he's too small for the 4 and too slow for the 3 should he even dress?

I'd say he's way too slow, unfortunately.

Hicks
01-31-2011, 11:25 PM
we did have 25 turnovers

And he was talking about the coach, not the players. It's the players' fault for the God awful amount of turnovers tonight.

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:27 PM
we did have 25 turnovers

we ran a lot different plays that we have never ran. That will take time to fix the TO problem but it will get better.

"change takes time" Frank Vogel

Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 11:28 PM
And he was talking about the coach, not the players. It's the players' fault for the God awful amount of turnovers tonight.

I was responding to a comment that Vogel ws valuing every posession. So I thought it was worthwhile to point out the team still had 25 turnovers. I mean if he didn't value each posession would we have 32 turnovers?

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:28 PM
For the first time since November, I can't wait to see them Wednesday. I'm thankful that we have a weak-sauce schedule for the next couple of weeks, and in 23 days is the trade deadline so things are getting better.

Pacemaker
01-31-2011, 11:30 PM
Dahntay's minutes should be given to Lance before Rush comes back so we can finally see him debut. It seems surreal he hasn't played one minute yet.

Speed
01-31-2011, 11:30 PM
I loved the closing group. Not just because they won, moreso because THATS the group that has to learn how to close.

Speed
01-31-2011, 11:33 PM
One more thing on the closers, has Hibbert, PG, or Josh ever closed a game this year?? Man, that was a huge growth opportunity for PG to play so well in the 4th even if it was Toronto. That is something Obie would not have done, under any circumstances.

xBulletproof
01-31-2011, 11:36 PM
I don't know if anyone else was sitting where I was, but in a timeout in the 4th Quarter Dan Burke went at Paul George. He pretty much punched him in the chest and was yelling at him just before he walked back on the court. Paul's demeanor changed at that point. He was much more aggressive. I really think Burke was giving him the "get after it" speech. Letting him know he wasn't going to get benched for going after them. That's what it looked like, and that's when Paul took it at them 2 possessions in a row and ended up with 4 FT attempts.

Pretty awesome.

OH, and I was sitting by Clark Kellogg too. That was pretty damn awesome as well.

cdash
01-31-2011, 11:37 PM
I echo the sentiments of others in that I loved the group that closed the game. I loved how Roy semed rejuvenated. I wasn't wild about seeing Dahntay out there. I actually think they could get away with a 3 man wing rotation with Granger/Dunleavy/George while Rush is out. If there are scrap minutes to be had, then I'd love to see Lance get them. There was a lineup in the second quarter that I wasn't wild about: Price/Dahntay/George/McRoberts/Foster. Not sure who was supposed to score the ball on that unit. I was a little surprised that Dunleavy and George basically split the minutes evenly between the two of them (Dun with 26 min; PG with 25). To be honest, I really didn't see a whole lot of glaring changes, and I didn't expect to.

Gold
01-31-2011, 11:38 PM
One more thing on the closers, has Hibbert, PG, or Josh ever closed a game this year?? Man, that was a huge growth opportunity for PG to play so well in the 4th even if it was Toronto. That is something Obie would not have done, under any circumstances.

Hibbert has. I can't remember when PG and Josh did if they have.

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:39 PM
I loved the closing group. Not just because they won, moreso because THATS the group that has to learn how to close.

this +100000000

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:39 PM
Another thing; During the second quarter Calderon played shooting guard while Bayless was the point (I believe), and instead of putting two point guards on the floor like Jim would have done, Vogel left George on Calderon.

Thats another plus from me.

purdue101
01-31-2011, 11:39 PM
PG getting mins was a definite plus, but I was more impressed that he received those mins at SG w/ Danny and they were effective. That has always been a red flag with me and I worried we would have to play Danny at PF, which I'm 100% against.

Hansbrough looked sharp, but I hope his limited mins were more the result of his illness. I like JMac for 15-20 mins off the bench, but he has no business starting over Hansbrough. Good things just tend to happen with Tyler on the floor and JMac goes through spurts where you literally forget he's even in the game.

Kegboy
01-31-2011, 11:40 PM
OH, and I was sitting by Clark Kellogg too. That was pretty damn awesome as well.

I'll be interested to hear what Clark has to say on Wednesday.

Anybody listen to Mark and Slick tonight?

Hicks
01-31-2011, 11:40 PM
Josh/Foster is certainly rough, but I think Tyler will see more minutes with Jeff when he's over this pneumonia. Vogel said as much after the game; more of an even split of their minutes (tonight it was 33 Josh, 16 Tyler).

BPump33
01-31-2011, 11:41 PM
I don't know if anyone else was sitting where I was, but in a timeout in the 4th Quarter Dan Burke went at Paul George. He pretty much punched him in the chest and was yelling at him just before he walked back on the court. Paul's demeanor changed at that point. He was much more aggressive. I really think Burke was giving him the "get after it" speech. Letting him know he wasn't going to get benched for going after them. That's what it looked like, and that's when Paul took it at them 2 possessions in a row and ended up with 4 FT attempts.

Pretty awesome.

OH, and I was sitting by Clark Kellogg too. That was pretty damn awesome as well.

We were just a couple of rows over and behind Clark. Great seats.

Tyler was absolutely jacked before the game started. He went over to the bench yelling and clapping. He looked like the intense Tyler from NC and not the scared to make a mistake Tyler. He is going to be a dangerous scorer/rebounder on that second unit.

Speed
01-31-2011, 11:43 PM
I echo the sentiments of others in that I loved the group that closed the game. I loved how Roy semed rejuvenated. I wasn't wild about seeing Dahntay out there. I actually think they could get away with a 3 man wing rotation with Granger/Dunleavy/George while Rush is out. If there are scrap minutes to be had, then I'd love to see Lance get them. There was a lineup in the second quarter that I wasn't wild about: Price/Dahntay/George/McRoberts/Foster. Not sure who was supposed to score the ball on that unit. I was a little surprised that Dunleavy and George basically split the minutes evenly between the two of them (Dun with 26 min; PG with 25). To be honest, I really didn't see a whole lot of glaring changes, and I didn't expect to.

I didn't think I'd like D Jones either, but you know I did. I like his physical style. He's like PF on the wing. Granted it needs to be in short small doses, like tonight (10 mins) and like when he was in Denver. I was actually surprised how effective I thought he was. He may be a place holder for BRush, but I'm not opposed to 10 mins of pain in arse D from him off the bench.

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:44 PM
I don't know if anyone else was sitting where I was, but in a timeout in the 4th Quarter Dan Burke went at Paul George. He pretty much punched him in the chest and was yelling at him just before he walked back on the court. Paul's demeanor changed at that point. He was much more aggressive. I really think Burke was giving him the "get after it" speech. Letting him know he wasn't going to get benched for going after them. That's what it looked like, and that's when Paul took it at them 2 possessions in a row and ended up with 4 FT attempts.

Pretty awesome.

OH, and I was sitting by Clark Kellogg too. That was pretty damn awesome as well.


We were just a couple of rows over and behind Clark. Great seats.

Tyler was absolutely jacked before the game started. He went over to the bench yelling and clapping. He looked like the intense Tyler from NC and not the scared to make a mistake Tyler. He is going to be a dangerous scorer/rebounder on that second unit.

Anybody else have any stories like this that went to the game? These two stories are definitely interesting in a good way.

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:45 PM
Walter Mccarty beat Inferno pre game 1v1 probly got inferno tired

cdash
01-31-2011, 11:45 PM
I didn't think I'd like D Jones either, but you know I did. I like his physical style. He's like PF on the wing. Granted it needs to be in short small doses, like tonight (10 mins) and like when he was in Denver. I was actually surprised how effective I thought he was. He may be a place holder for BRush, but I'm not opposed to 10 mins of pain in arse D from him off the bench.

I'm not going to complain much about him playing 10 minutes, but I think this is the type of game that Lance could have gotten some burn. Playing against a crappy team at home that doesn't play any defense and doesn't have anyone that will seriously burn you on the other end...would have been a nice first NBA game.

xIndyFan
01-31-2011, 11:46 PM
liked the fact that dahntay played.

didn't like the dahntay/jeff/josh lineup.

liked the focus on feeding the post.

didn't like the forced feeding the post

like the guys getting out and running

didn't like the turnovers.

and i really really like paul george getting to the rim, but didn't like the way he didn't finish.

Pacerfan
01-31-2011, 11:46 PM
JeffRabjohns Jeff Rabjohns
Playful moment in Pacers locker room postgame: Players threatened to dump ice buckets on Vogel, he said, you get me, I'll get you.
1 minute ago
»

JeffRabjohns Jeff Rabjohns
Jeff Foster grabbed the game ball after Pacers win and gave it to interim coach Frank Vogel. Vogel said it was his first game ball.
3 minutes ago

http://twitter.com/#!/JeffRabjohns

I love that the players really seem to like him.

pwee31
01-31-2011, 11:46 PM
About Paul I really think that JOB wasnt letting him play his game and let him be agressive

We heard Tyler say the same thing in his post-game interview. Actually Paul said something as well along the lines of "it didn't feel like we were walking on pins tonight" ~paraphrase

peasouptexan7
01-31-2011, 11:49 PM
I like how he played George down the stretch. I think he used his timeouts wisely as well. I also didn't hear any negative comments in the part of the postgame I saw

purdue101
01-31-2011, 11:49 PM
We were just a couple of rows over and behind Clark. Great seats.

Tyler was absolutely jacked before the game started. He went over to the bench yelling and clapping. He looked like the intense Tyler from NC and not the scared to make a mistake Tyler. He is going to be a dangerous scorer/rebounder on that second unit.

Anyone catch the postgame interview? Tyler took a few jabs at JOB. Wells twitter went on to state that Tyler continued his "rant" in the locker room after the interview.

xBulletproof
01-31-2011, 11:50 PM
We were just a couple of rows over and behind Clark. Great seats.

Tyler was absolutely jacked before the game started. He went over to the bench yelling and clapping. He looked like the intense Tyler from NC and not the scared to make a mistake Tyler. He is going to be a dangerous scorer/rebounder on that second unit.

I was a couple rows down from Clark and just across the isle. I also ran into an old Ball State/ IUPUI player named Josh Murray I used to run with when I played basketball. Didn't figure anyone would remember him though.

I saw that with Tyler too. He was very amped up.

I have a good feeling about Vogel. They didn't seem to do much different with Hibbert, but he just seemed different. It was like November again.

gummy
01-31-2011, 11:51 PM
Anyone catch the postgame interview? Tyler took a few jabs at JOB. Wells twitter went on to state that Tyler continued his "rant" in the locker room after the interview.

Interesting how bits of frustration and disagreement with JOB are leaking out now - from management and the players.

Sookie
01-31-2011, 11:52 PM
I liked the substitution pattern/rotation, the time outs. He didn't do anything stupid.

I think he was also confident the entire time, which probably helped the team close the game.

Instead of yanking Darren for the two TOs in a row near the end of the game, he let him play through it. Darren composed himself. Instead of getting nervous about Paul George being a rookie, he gave him an opportunity to play at the end. Instead of shying away from Hibbert because Roy has been struggling, we went to Roy at the end of the game.

Players have to fail before they can really succeed. So we are gonig to have to take some lumps. I'm not opposed to playing Tyler at the end of the game instead of Josh, if Tyler is outplaying Josh, the same for Price and Rush once healthy. They're all young, and all hopefully a part of the future, so they all need to know how to close. But they all have to learn how to win, and they'll most likely need to lose first, in order to learn how to win.

I also liked seeing Dahntay.

What we need to fix. We need some offensive structure. Although I like that we are making sure Hibbert is very involved. I expect that to be fixed as we get some more practices.

The defense on PnRs, particularly with our point guards. To be fair to both, the screens were always blantanly illegal. (Paul George was fantastic defensively..actually..Paul George was just fantastic..)

And we need to cut down on the turnovers. I think (I posted this on the other board) that the turnovers were from some players trying to do too much. Darren's not going to turn the ball over like that all of the time. Sometimes when you try too hard, you make mistakes because of it.

I also think that we can't let Josh and Foster play too much together. We need a scorer down low.

Overall, I thought Vogel did a good job. Good rotation, good timeouts, let the right players finish, and didn't do anything stupid. (I keep repeating that, but it's important to me)

BringJackBack
01-31-2011, 11:53 PM
Interim coach Frank Vogel on his Pacers: "This is a good basketball team. I keep saying it. I believe it. And we’ll get better. "
4 minutes ago via web

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:53 PM
Anyone catch the postgame interview? Tyler took a few jabs at JOB. Wells twitter went on to state that Tyler continued his "rant" in the locker room after the interview.

I dont blame himI would be frustrted also

vnzla81
01-31-2011, 11:54 PM
I'm not going to complain much about him playing 10 minutes, but I think this is the type of game that Lance could have gotten some burn. Playing against a crappy team at home that doesn't play any defense and doesn't have anyone that will seriously burn you on the other end...would have been a nice first NBA game.

I agree, the things is that I don't know if Jim ever got some plays for Lance because I don't think he planned to play him, for what I got to hear today from Vogel in four different radio show is that he is going to play him but is going to do it slowly, I wouldn't be surprise if he plays next game.

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:56 PM
We heard Tyler say the same thing in his post-game interview. Actually Paul said something as well along the lines of "it didn't feel like we were walking on pins tonight" ~paraphrase

I told Paul after the Bucks game early in the season just play ur game I watched u in collge no one could stop u attacking the rim. he said something like "ya but thats not part of the offense".

I cant wait till he plays his game Rush also they will really surprise people. Paul could ave 15-20 ppg the rest of the season if Vogel lets him do his thing.

PaceBalls
01-31-2011, 11:58 PM
The substitutions were awesome. The good players didn't get yanked for making silly mistakes. If anything, I got the vibe that yes, our coach does mean what he said. He really does believe in the players and won't give up on them after one or two mistakes.

Right now, that is just what the Dr. ordered. It might not be in a playoff game, but right now these guys need some confidence and having the coach believe in them helps a ton. I mean how nice it must be for Tyler, Josh, Roy, AJ, Paul not have to look over their shoulder over any possible mishap, constantly doubting themselves and wondering if they are going to be taken out of the game.

Good stuff.

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 11:58 PM
JeffRabjohns Jeff Rabjohns
Playful moment in Pacers locker room postgame: Players threatened to dump ice buckets on Vogel, he said, you get me, I'll get you.
1 minute ago
»

JeffRabjohns Jeff Rabjohns
Jeff Foster grabbed the game ball after Pacers win and gave it to interim coach Frank Vogel. Vogel said it was his first game ball.
3 minutes ago

http://twitter.com/#!/JeffRabjohns

I love that the players really seem to like him.

I love these tweets Jeff classy and the rest of the team really likes Vogel

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 12:03 AM
Sookie got me all confused with the Tyler and bench Hans thing :confused:

pwee31
02-01-2011, 12:06 AM
You know, I never really thought about how the O'Brien firing might affect Brandon Rush?

Might we see a more aggressive Rush as well? Now I'm intrigued

Sookie
02-01-2011, 12:07 AM
Sookie got me all confused with the Tyler and bench Hans thing :confused:

Sorry, I meant Josh...and I did it twice :D

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 12:07 AM
You know, I never really thought about how the O'Brien firing might affect Brandon Rush?

Might we see a more aggressive Rush as well? Now I'm intrigued

Yep I can't wait for that either.

cdash
02-01-2011, 12:08 AM
You know, I never really thought about how the O'Brien firing might affect Brandon Rush?

Might we see a more aggressive Rush as well? Now I'm intrigued

Maybe for a game or two. Rush is who he is at this point: consistently inconsistent.

graphic-er
02-01-2011, 12:08 AM
Interesting because McRoberts was actually the guy who retrieved the game ball from Calderon, then Foster Snatched it from McRoberts and binged him over the head with it on their way off the court.

Foster is such a brown nose.

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 12:10 AM
Sorry, I meant Josh...and I did it twice :D

That was funny :laugh: are you trying to say that they all look alike? :laugh:

PaceBalls
02-01-2011, 12:10 AM
Anyone think we will see PG start getting alot of minutes and see him lead the team in scoring the last half the season?

Unclebuck said this at the start of the season and it's stuck with me. But PG makes Danny expendable.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 12:11 AM
That was funny :laugh: are you trying to say that they all look alike? :laugh:

hahahah, I'm just all excited...nothing to be annoyed at this game. It's been a while..

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 12:12 AM
Anyone think we will see PG start getting alot of minutes and see him lead the team in scoring the last half the season?

Unclebuck said this at the start of the season and it's stuck with me. But PG makes Danny expendable.
Maybe, but I doubt it. It wouldn't shock me to see him starting soon. You have a problem with him paying SG? Why does he make
granger any less valuable?

Pacerfan
02-01-2011, 12:14 AM
Anyone think we will see PG start getting alot of minutes and see him lead the team in scoring the last half the season?

Unclebuck said this at the start of the season and it's stuck with me. But PG makes Danny expendable.

I hope PG's play rubs off on Danny's play :)

Very ironic... Danny probably was the guy that brought up picking Paul George in the draft since their agent set up work-outs with each other. He probably saw how good he was and told the Pacers.

pwee31
02-01-2011, 12:14 AM
Maybe for a game or two. Rush is who he is at this point: consistently inconsistent.

I understand he's an inconsistent scorer, but I'm just hoping he's more engaged and aggressive like Paul George was tonight, and not just hanging around the 3pt line

BillS
02-01-2011, 12:14 AM
I liked the rotation, though I thought a little Posey on the defensive end might have helped stop some of the momentum when Toronto came back 18 points. Ultimately not necessary, but that was a bit of a scary run from a team we should never have allowed to come back like that.

I thought the turnovers were too much considering they were not all on bad passes or broken plays. There were a lot of bad dribbles and "TJ-like" drives into traffic for a bobble and a turnover. Need to keep an eye on that.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 12:15 AM
Maybe for a game or two. Rush is who he is at this point: consistently inconsistent.

No trust me if Frank call plays for Rush he will produce. The problem in the past we didnt call plays for Rush or George if that changes like it did to night watch out.

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 12:15 AM
Anyone think we will see PG start getting alot of minutes and see him lead the team in scoring the last half the season?

yes, i think he is 20 games from being the best player on the team. assuming he learns to finish.


. . . But PG makes Danny expendable.

no, bad idea. pacers need more than one good player. getting rid of danny because PG is good is a bad idea.

Hicks
02-01-2011, 12:15 AM
Interesting because McRoberts was actually the guy who retrieved the game ball from Calderon, then Foster Snatched it from McRoberts and binged him over the head with it on their way off the court.

Foster is such a brown nose.

:rollout:

pwee31
02-01-2011, 12:16 AM
I liked the rotation, though I thought a little Posey on the defensive end might have helped stop some of the momentum when Toronto came back 18 points. Ultimately not necessary, but that was a bit of a scary run from a team we should never have allowed to come back like that.

I thought the turnovers were too much considering they were not all on bad passes or broken plays. There were a lot of bad dribbles and "TJ-like" drives into traffic for a bobble and a turnover. Need to keep an eye on that.

:eek: You watch your mouth sir!

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 12:17 AM
I understand he's an inconsistent scorer, but I'm just hoping he's more engaged and aggressive like Paul George was tonight, and not just hanging around the 3pt line

When they hang around the 3pt line that is by design it is part of the play to " space the court" that should change 2nite we called way less plays for DG33 and others produce who the plays were called 4.

PaceBalls
02-01-2011, 12:17 AM
Maybe, but I doubt it. Oh and check out Pacer4evers sig (in reference to our disscussion earlier.)

Yeah, it might take until next season. Do you agree with that though? That PG makes DG tradeable?

Psyren
02-01-2011, 12:17 AM
I wasn't pleased at all with the turnovers, but the thread is about Vogel.

And I like everything I saw from him.

*Calm demeanor
* Less rotations
*Tyler/Josh at PF
*PG finishing the game
*Going to Roy much more

The turnovers were not on Vogel. Those were on the players.

I know it's one game, against a bad team, but I like the guy.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 12:17 AM
Why would Danny be expendable? We need multiple really good players...Paul George is clearly quick enough to guard the 2, and he creates a huge mismatch offensively at the 2. I like him there.

To me, it simply means that we don't have to look at wing options, and we can look for a really really good PF. (And move Josh to backup Hibbert at the Center position)

We can go into next season with a rotation of
Collison/Price
PG/Rush
Danny/Rush
X/Hans
Hibbert/Josh

And see where that takes us.

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 12:18 AM
. . . I thought the turnovers were too much considering they were not all on bad passes or broken plays. There were a lot of bad dribbles and "TJ-like" drives into traffic for a bobble and a turnover. Need to keep an eye on that.

that is one of the things i don't like about darren collison being turned loose. he becomes a turnover machine. be nice if there was some happy medium betweem turnover crazed and unhappy because i can't play my game.

BlueNGold
02-01-2011, 12:19 AM
Vogel is a lucky man guys. He cannot help but look good following Jim.

Seriously, Vogel played the guys I would have been playing all year long and for about the same number of minutes I would have played them. To say the least, I like what he's doing so far.

It will be interesting to see how he matches up with other teams. I suspect he needs to play Tyler a minimum of 20 minutes to be acceptable...once Tyler gets over the pneumonia.

Psyren
02-01-2011, 12:20 AM
No trust me if Frank call plays for Rush he will produce. The problem in the past we didnt call plays for Rush or George if that changes like it did to night watch out.

My problem with Rush is this.

I think he'll get the opportunity to attack the basket under Vogel.

The issue is he'll do what he always does when he does (rarely) attack the basket.

He'll either:

A) Pull up for a mid ranger jumper and miss

or

B) Take it to the room incredibly soft, get blocked, then cry and beg for a foul.

Rush has the talent/athletic ability to be dominant going to the rim. But he's had opportunities, and the good majority of the time, he's just too soft. I want to see him go at the rim like he actually wants to score and go with some force.

cdash
02-01-2011, 12:21 AM
No trust me if Frank call plays for Rush he will produce. The problem in the past we didnt call plays for Rush or George if that changes like it did to night watch out.

I've watched that ******* for two years--I'm not buying. He was inconsistent in college, and he has been in the NBA. He is what he is.

PaceBalls
02-01-2011, 12:25 AM
I hope PG's play rubs off on Danny's play :)

Very ironic... Danny probably was the guy that brought up picking Paul George in the draft since their agent set up work-outs with each other. He probably saw how good he was and told the Pacers.

Oh yeah man, I forgot about that. They were buds before Paul was even drafted. There is that good connection there. It would be nice to keep them together as a badass SG/SF duo. but...

Here is the thing, Danny has the name recognition as a sort of elite player. Well maybe not elite, but damn good. He will have the largest contract on the team and is, by far, the best trade bait. We will have plenty of cap space, but is there a better player for what we need out there?

I am a firm believer in selling high and is Danny ever going to be valued higher as a basketball player again?

I don't really know. I certainly don't want us to make a mess of this and make a terrible trade, but maybe it is a good idea.

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 12:27 AM
Why would Danny be expendable? We need multiple really good players...Paul George is clearly quick enough to guard the 2, and he creates a huge mismatch offensively at the 2. I like him there.

To me, it simply means that we don't have to look at wing options, and we can look for a really really good PF. . .

:iagree: preach it sister. speak the truth. :dance:


. . .(And move Josh to backup Hibbert at the Center position)

We can go into next season with a rotation of
Collison/Price
PG/Rush
Danny/Rush
X/Hans
Hibbert/Josh

And see where that takes us.

jmo, but don't see that happening. have not seen any evidence that josh can defend any NBA center in the post. right now, the pacers protect josh when they play teams with PF's with decent post games. roy or jeff takes the scorer and josh takes the other guy.

vnzla81
02-01-2011, 12:31 AM
One thing I would change if I was the coach is that I would move Dunleavy to the second unit and start PG, the combination of bad D by Dun,Roy and DC is not helping the starting unit, my line up would be like this:

DC,PG,Danny,Josh,Roy and a second unit of AJ,Rush,Dun,Tyler and Foster.

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 12:34 AM
Yeah, it might take until next season. Do you agree with that though? That PG makes DG tradeable?

As always, it all depends on what you get back. I don't see any reason to look to trade Danny.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 12:38 AM
:iagree: preach it sister. speak the truth. :dance:



jmo, but don't see that happening. have not seen any evidence that josh can defend any NBA center in the post. right now, the pacers protect josh when they play teams with PF's with decent post games. roy or jeff takes the scorer and josh takes the other guy.

I think for a backup Center he'd be fine. Particularly since him and Hans play well together.

edit: Also, Danny didn't shoot well..but he rebounded well, he passed well, and he defended well..

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 12:40 AM
I think for a backup Center he'd be fine. Particularly since him and Hans play well together.

they do work well together. and maybe you're right. but i just haven't seen any proof that mcbobs can defend in the low post. :shrug:

Trader Joe
02-01-2011, 12:46 AM
Vogel just gives me this vibe, it's a calm, cool confidence that I can't quite put my finger on, and I completely see why the players get along with him splendidly. And he's only 37!

This is a young man's game folks and I think soon, once guys like Pop, Sloan, and Phil Jax retire we will see younger coaches become the trend, I think Vogel will eventually latch on as a head coach for a while somewhere even if it's not here. That being said, I think he definitely deserves the chance to make his case.

BlueNGold
02-01-2011, 12:52 AM
One thing I would change if I was the coach is that I would move Dunleavy to the second unit and start PG, the combination of bad D by Dun,Roy and DC is not helping the starting unit, my line up would be like this:

DC,PG,Danny,Josh,Roy and a second unit of AJ,Rush,Dun,Tyler and Foster.

I think I can go with that lineup. However, I would find a way to get Tyler more than backup minutes.

LA_Confidential
02-01-2011, 01:03 AM
My problem with Danny is this.

I think he'll get the opportunity to attack the basket under Vogel.

The issue is he'll do what he always does when he does (rarely) attack the basket.

He'll either:

A) Pull up for a mid ranger jumper and miss

or

B) Take it to the room incredibly soft, get blocked, then cry and beg for a foul.

Danny has the talent/athletic ability to be dominant going to the rim. But he's had opportunities, and the good majority of the time, he's just too soft. I want to see him go at the rim like he actually wants to score and go with some force.

fixed.

pwee31
02-01-2011, 01:06 AM
I think I can go with that lineup. However, I would find a way to get Tyler more than backup minutes.

I think Tyler will get more backup minutes once he's healthier. He stated he was struggling in the first have getting his wind, which is understandable coming off an URI. He'll get his minutes when healthy.

Still don't understand the trade Granger comments. Even when Danny struggles, he's making things easier on guys like Paul George. Granger is our guy, of course teams want to stop Roy inside, but Granger is the guy teams plan to stop, he's the guy teams put their best defender on, and he has to do better at not forcing things. He turns the ball over quite a bit when he forces the action.

He needs to be aggressive b/c he's our best player, but he needs to do some within the offense and without forcing things. He's going to get his shots, just needs to focus on knocking the ones down that he gets. Hopefully seeing the team win tonight despite the turnovers and the fact he didn't play well, gives him more confident in his teammates and allows him to relax a bit and just have fun and play.

gummy
02-01-2011, 01:08 AM
Coach Voegel said of the turnovers: "Some of that is my fault, I've gotta get these guys more organized offensively."

It's only been a few days and I'm trying to reserve judgment, but I really like the way Coach V speaks and carries himself.

PaceBalls
02-01-2011, 01:10 AM
I think Tyler will get more backup minutes once he's healthier. He stated he was struggling in the first have getting his wind, which is understandable coming off an URI. He'll get his minutes when healthy.

Still don't understand the trade Granger comments. Even when Danny struggles, he's making things easier on guys like Paul George. Granger is our guy, of course teams want to stop Roy inside, but Granger is the guy teams plan to stop, he's the guy teams put their best defender on, and he has to do better at not forcing things. He turns the ball over quite a bit when he forces the action.

He needs to be aggressive b/c he's our best player, but he needs to do some within the offense and without forcing things. He's going to get his shots, just needs to focus on knocking the ones down that he gets. Hopefully seeing the team win tonight despite the turnovers and the fact he didn't play well, gives him more confident in his teammates and allows him to relax a bit and just have fun and play.

I was pretty noncommittal in my post about PG being Danny's replacement. I just threw it out there as a talking point. I still am not sure if it is the right move. I thought I listed all the good reasons why it might be.

Day-V
02-01-2011, 01:13 AM
I liked that he started Josh ahead of Tyler. That's no dig on Tyler; I love the guy. I just think Tyler benefits this team more coming off the bench and teaming with J-Mac/Foster and helping to create some energy in the 2nd quarter.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 01:16 AM
Coach Voegel said of the turnovers: "Some of that is my fault, I've gotta get these guys more organized offensively."

It's only been a few days and I'm trying to reserve judgment, but I really like the way Coach V speaks and carries himself.

I've heard him take accountability twice now.

he said when he was first hired "I'll be learning on the job, and hopefully my mistakes won't cost us a game, but they probably will."

and he's taking accountability here too. I like that. Especially in a young coach.

And I'm glad we're going to change the offense from "Collison/Price dribbles the ball around the court trying to make something up."

jeffg-body
02-01-2011, 01:20 AM
I really like Vogel's calm confidence. It seemed that he relates very well to the players and as time goes on he will only get better as he gains experience each game. If he continues this and we improve our play due to his working the line-up and in game adjustments I wouldn't mind seeing the Pacers give the guy an opportunity to lift that interim tag off and let him take hold of the reigns permenantly.

pizza guy
02-01-2011, 01:22 AM
What I liked:

The emphasis on getting Roy the ball in the post early.
The emphasis on getting Roy the ball in the post often.
The emphasis on getting Roy the ball in the post late.

The freedom that Paul George was allowed, because this guy is just a natural basketball player. He hits the shots that you brag about, on a routine basis, and he hits the open shots with his eyes closed. I really liked having PG and Danny on the floor together. Maybe it's just me, because I don't get to see every minute of every game, but it seemed like tonight was the first night those two saw extended minutes playing side-by-side all year. And that's how I would have done it from the start.

DC went crazy with turnovers, and it was really annoying. But, it was encouraging that he wasn't on the short leash, and whaddayaknow?! he finished the game well. DC is gonna be a very good point guard for us, and the more he plays, the better he'll be.

Josh and Tyler were the only two playing power forward tonight. That is a HUGE, HUGE plus. I think they hold down the position admirably. The frontcourt duo of Josh and Jeff doesn't work all that well. Josh and Roy works, and Tyler and Roy works. But Jeff needs to be paired with Tyler so there is some scoring threat there. And for those considering Josh as back-up C, why not Tyler? Hans clearly is the stronger of the two, and he plays well with basically anyone on the roster. I've just become a pretty big fan of Psycho T, and I'm in favor of finding ways to get him minutes.

Maybe the most important difference tonight (and I'm including the fact that the substitutions weren't crazy, the young guys played, and Vogel seems to give a longer leash), was that Danny only scored 11 points, and we still won. IIRC, when Danny scores under 16, we've lost twice as many as we've won this season. But tonight we won. I attribute that to the fact that the whole team was involved, the whole team had plays, the whole team scored. Plays were run for Roy. Plays were run for PG. Tyler got good looks, DC got good looks. Danny didn't score 30+, but he didn't have to tonight. The pressure was lifted a little bit because the other guys were allowed a chance.

Now, against the good teams, 11 points from Granger isn't likely to get the job done, unless PG or Roy go bananas. But Danny is clearly much more comfortable when he doesn't have to force the issue, and that's what we saw tonight.

Good team win, and good for Vogel. I'm looking forward to the rest of this season, again.

Naptown_Seth
02-01-2011, 01:28 AM
He worked Roy in the post and stuck with it even when it was a struggle. He often used Josh to feed Roy over the top in the high/low post which showed promise.

Solid amount of Price, Paul, Josh and Tyler to go with leaning on Roy.

Honestly, that's all I ask now. Let's sort those kids out a bit first, then we can work on tweaking plays and strategy for specific moments. If Vogel shows he can do this, fine, but just going with the roster tonight where Rush obviously takes back those DJones minutes was a smart, solid approach.

The kids made errors like crazy, and maybe you try to help them with that, but mostly this is what game time is for.

pwee31
02-01-2011, 01:33 AM
All in all I think Vogel did everything I hope he would do.

-He stuck with Roy and got him touches and minutes throughout the entire game.

-He went with a McRoberts and Hansbrough PF rotation which we've all called for (No Posey)

-He let Collison do his thing, using pick & rolls and letting him play through TOs. (Price as the backup)

-He gave Paul George nice burn, even through crunch time, which was a pleasant surprise

-He handled himself well on the sidelines, calling good timeouts, and interacting/rooting for the guys on the floor

-He still kept the vets involved in Dunleavy and Foster (even using Dahntay), but didn't overuse them like we've seen in the past.

-He even had a positive post-game interview. He pumped up his players, had valid reasons for why he decided to do things like go with George down the stretch, or limiting Tyler to 15 minutes.

I'm really enthused and happy about the things Frank Vogel did and said, I mean Granger had 11pts, the Pacers had 25 turnovers and still won the game, by double digits even (thanks DC).

In the past you wouldn't have been able to say that, regardless of the team we were playing. This is why I'm excited for the present and future.

Wednesday will be interesting on the road, against a Cavs team that we should be, that will be desperate for a win.

Fab5Fan
02-01-2011, 01:54 AM
we ran a lot different plays that we have never ran. That will take time to fix the TO problem but it will get better.

"change takes time" Frank Vogel


If you watch the post game show Vogel answered the question of what did you do different on offense tonight with an emphatic "nothing, we didn't call one new play". Now I don't worry too much about the TO's cause I just assume they were partially due to trying too hard.

Hoop
02-01-2011, 01:56 AM
Stacy interviewed Coach Frank on the big screen before the game. He basically said McBob and Hans would be the PF combo from here on out. He said that the PF spot was just a percieved weakness, he thinks it can be a strength. Hans\McBob bring unique and different skills sets to the game and both can help us win.

He stood by his word! That in it's self made me love the guy so far. No more say one thing, do the opposite crap.

I loved how the starters finally got a chance to finish the game, with the exception of PG subbed for Dun, PG deserved to finish.

The turnovers were way to high, but we did attack the basket a lot more, probably resulting in some of those TO's. Roy, DC, PG and Hans all seemed more aggressive going to the hole. I really like that!

cdash
02-01-2011, 02:01 AM
People are listing a lot of things that they liked that I didn't think were very much different. It's nice to see this optimism instead of the pessimistic Obie talk.

HOOPFANATIC
02-01-2011, 02:04 AM
Not bothered at all by DCs turnovers, Rondo and Westbrook lead the league. Balls in his hands to direct. Felt like the guys were maybe psychologicaly missing all the yelling a little. Vogel tried a bit in the 3rd I think.

focused444
02-01-2011, 02:16 AM
Anyone catch the postgame interview? Tyler took a few jabs at JOB. Wells twitter went on to state that Tyler continued his "rant" in the locker room after the interview.

Is there anywhere to see Tyler's interview, or can anyone summarize what Tyler said?

TheDon
02-01-2011, 02:32 AM
To add to the whole letting Paul George play his game, someone mentioned Dan Burke earlier in the thread. There was also a moment in the game where AJ pushed the ball up ahead to Paul and he kind of hesitated a bit and AJ said "PUSH IT" and Paul took it right to the rim and earned himself a chance for free throws.

on a side note that alley-oop from Mcroberts to Paul George was awesome. :)

ECKrueger
02-01-2011, 02:36 AM
I liked that we won, the playing time, and that their is actually some hope for the team now :)

Ozwalt72
02-01-2011, 02:41 AM
I liked his first quarter substitutions. Not the players involved necessarily, but how he did it. When it came time, he took (I believe) one player out each dead ball, easing the second team in instead of changing out 2, 3 players. It might be nothing, but I thought it was significantly different from what JOB usually does.

But I read someone else say that the first few games won't tell us nearly as much as the last ten or so will. I believe that to be the case. If this guy has us playing solid basketball to close out the season...we might have found another piece of our "core".

Regardless, my immediate interest is back on the team.

Hoop
02-01-2011, 04:36 AM
I liked Vogel's post game press conference:
http://www.nba.com/video/teams/pacers/2011/01/31/postgame110131playersflv-1540262/index.html


He said Josh and Tyler about 24 minutes split between each other, give or take 5.:dance:



Another thing I really liked from Vogel was :happydanc

<table id="nbaGITeamStats" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="even"></tr><tr class="odd"><td id="nbaGIBoxNme">T. Ford
</td><td colspan="17" class="nbaGIdnp">DNP - Coach's Decision</td></tr><tr class="even"><td id="nbaGIBoxNme">J. Posey</td><td colspan="17" class="nbaGIdnp">DNP - Coach's Decision</td></tr></tbody></table>

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 10:24 AM
The defense needs to get much better. Against a very poor Raptor team I thought that was not a good defensive performance.

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 10:41 AM
i know this has been mentioned, but 25 turnovers is way way too many.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 10:42 AM
I dont blame himI would be frustrted also
All that's on Larry Bird, imo. Starting to look like a weakling.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 10:46 AM
Anyone think we will see PG start getting alot of minutes and see him lead the team in scoring the last half the season?

Unclebuck said this at the start of the season and it's stuck with me. But PG makes Danny expendable.
I've noticed Danny not throwing PG the ball.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by BillS
I liked the rotation, though I thought a little Posey on the defensive end might have helped stop some of the momentum when Toronto came back 18 points. Ultimately not necessary, but that was a bit of a scary run from a team we should never have allowed to come back like that.
This is precisely what Vogel SHOULD NOT have done. Regardless of whether they won the game or not.

He resisted the temptation to "fix" the problem and let the young guys play through it. They did. They learned. They are now more experienced. Their confidence level is higher.

We should have done this two years ago, but there's no time like the present to turn the corner.

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 10:55 AM
He resisted the temptation to "fix" the problem and let the young guys play through it. They did. They learned. They are now more experienced. Their confidence level is higher.



One game did all that?


I am not going to draw any conclusions on anything until the honeymoon period is over. Also until we play a few teams. keep in mind just 4 days ago we beat a team by 32 points

Indra
02-01-2011, 11:00 AM
One game did all that?


I am not going to draw any conclusions on anything until the honeymoon period is over. Also until we play a few teams. keep in mind just 4 days ago we beat a team by 32 points

Why are you always so sarcastic/negative? All he's saying is that the young guys were allowed to play through their mistakes, and yes, they learn from that. And yes, they get experience from that. Will they make the same mistakes again? Probably. But the more they play the fewer mistakes they'll make over time.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 11:04 AM
But I read someone else say that the first few games won't tell us nearly as much as the last ten or so will.
I hear ya. But the last ten games mean nothing if we don't win a few now to make the playoffs.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 11:06 AM
One game did all that?



Yep.

In a small way. Sure, it will take a few games for it to become a solid reality, but the bar moved forward instead of backwards for once.

I am not going to draw any conclusions on anything until the honeymoon period is over. Also until we play a few teams. keep in mind just 4 days ago we beat a team by 32 points
Yeah, we won by a lot, but Paul George, Josh, and Roy did not increase their confidence level at crunch time.

Those three, playing well, can beat good teams regularly. Posey and Dun and Foster, playing well, probably can't.

BillS
02-01-2011, 11:10 AM
This is precisely what Vogel SHOULD NOT have done. Regardless of whether they won the game or not.

He resisted the temptation to "fix" the problem and let the young guys play through it. They did. They learned. They are now more experienced. Their confidence level is higher.

We should have done this two years ago, but there's no time like the present to turn the corner.

No, they didn't play through it - they got lucky that Toronto is a bad enough team that the mistakes didn't matter.

At some point confidence is also confidence that the TEAM has solutions for problems. No, you don't pull guys if you are up by 18 and the opponents go on a 6-0 run, but when it hits 10 and counting you start thinking about adjusting something. Just because that "something" is a veteran you don't dismiss it as useless.

The previous coach played Posey too much, but not using an asset because he's "old" is just as silly.

If you are young and making mistakes there's no benefit in just staying out there making the same mistakes and hoping the other guy lets up. You have to have a chance to correct the mistakes. Ideally, that means getting pulled to the bench, the role-player who can be successful in that specific way hits the floor, you point out to the young guy the difference, and put him back in once the bleeding has stopped.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 11:24 AM
No, they didn't play through it - they got lucky that Toronto is a bad enough team that the mistakes didn't matter.

At some point confidence is also confidence that the TEAM has solutions for problems. No, you don't pull guys if you are up by 18 and the opponents go on a 6-0 run, but when it hits 10 and counting you start thinking about adjusting something. Just because that "something" is a veteran you don't dismiss it as useless.

The previous coach played Posey too much, but not using an asset because he's "old" is just as silly.

If you are young and making mistakes there's no benefit in just staying out there making the same mistakes and hoping the other guy lets up. You have to have a chance to correct the mistakes. Ideally, that means getting pulled to the bench, the role-player who can be successful in that specific way hits the floor, you point out to the young guy the difference, and put him back in once the bleeding has stopped.
Where's the sunshine, Bill?

pwee31
02-01-2011, 11:29 AM
Stacy interviewed Coach Frank on the big screen before the game. He basically said McBob and Hans would be the PF combo from here on out. He said that the PF spot was just a percieved weakness, he thinks it can be a strength. Hans\McBob bring unique and different skills sets to the game and both can help us win.

He stood by his word! That in it's self made me love the guy so far. No more say one thing, do the opposite crap.

I loved how the starters finally got a chance to finish the game, with the exception of PG subbed for Dun, PG deserved to finish.

The turnovers were way to high, but we did attack the basket a lot more, probably resulting in some of those TO's. Roy, DC, PG and Hans all seemed more aggressive going to the hole. I really like that!

Any PF rotation would be seen as a weakness if James Posey is seeing 20 minutes per game at that position.

dohman
02-01-2011, 11:31 AM
I didn't take to much from the game. I will wait to make judgements until after he has had the team for 2 weeks. Players are riding a high right now.

pizza guy
02-01-2011, 11:36 AM
One game did all that?


I am not going to draw any conclusions on anything until the honeymoon period is over. Also until we play a few teams. keep in mind just 4 days ago we beat a team by 32 points

I'm with you that we can't draw any solid conclusions until the end of the season, or at least the end of February. But, if you couldn't see that Hibbert had a little swagger back (btw, he put up 24 pts and 11 rbs), then you weren't watching the game. If you couldn't tell that Paul George looked more comfortable and aggressive, you must've fallen asleep.

One game doesn't solve the season, but the guys looked different last night, and you could tell. We'll have to see if it sticks, and if it does, we've got a good team.

Unclebuck
02-01-2011, 11:41 AM
I'm with you that we can't draw any solid conclusions until the end of the season, or at least the end of February. But, if you couldn't see that Hibbert had a little swagger back (btw, he put up 24 pts and 11 rbs), then you weren't watching the game. If you couldn't tell that Paul George looked more comfortable and aggressive, you must've fallen asleep.

One game doesn't solve the season, but the guys looked different last night, and you could tell. We'll have to see if it sticks, and if it does, we've got a good team.

Roy yes, Ok. He looked different. George, no he looked the same to me. he's been playing well and getting a lot of minutes the past 3 weeks

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 11:44 AM
Why would Danny be expendable? We need multiple really good players...Paul George is clearly quick enough to guard the 2, and he creates a huge mismatch offensively at the 2. I like him there.

To me, it simply means that we don't have to look at wing options, and we can look for a really really good PF. (And move Josh to backup Hibbert at the Center position)

We can go into next season with a rotation of
Collison/Price
PG/Rush
Danny/Rush
X/Hans
Hibbert/Josh

And see where that takes us.

Lance?

You know Im just instigating you Sookie :)

BringJackBack
02-01-2011, 11:46 AM
Roy yes, Ok. He looked different. George, no he looked the same to me. he's been playing well and getting a lot of minutes the past 3 weeks

George did close the game out though.

Tom White
02-01-2011, 11:52 AM
JeffRabjohns Jeff Rabjohns
Playful moment in Pacers locker room postgame: Players threatened to dump ice buckets on Vogel, he said, you get me, I'll get you.
1 minute ago
»

JeffRabjohns Jeff Rabjohns
Jeff Foster grabbed the game ball after Pacers win and gave it to interim coach Frank Vogel. Vogel said it was his first game ball.
3 minutes ago

http://twitter.com/#!/JeffRabjohns

I love that the players really seem to like him.

That is a really nice gesture from Foster. I think it is not only a sign that the guys like Vogel, but also that Foster understands what is going on and gave Vogel a nice "Welcome to being the head guy" moment. I'll bet Vogel really appreciated that,

BillS
02-01-2011, 12:13 PM
Where's the sunshine, Bill?

:shrug:

The question was "what did you like/dislike" - if the expectation was that folks would heap on nothing but praise, the "dislike" portion should have been left out.

I said I liked the rotation and pointed out one element I thought might have improved the game.

daschysta
02-01-2011, 12:34 PM
Roy yes, Ok. He looked different. George, no he looked the same to me. he's been playing well and getting a lot of minutes the past 3 weeks

Roy is huge though, and his play imo is the biggest difference between our recent failures and our early season success.

imawhat
02-01-2011, 12:40 PM
Ranked, in order of what I think is important to the team:

1) Giving the young players a chance to win/lose the game in the 4th.
One of the biggest inaccuracies reported by our players is that we're losing games because of our "inexperience", according to Foster and Granger. Not true. Ford/Posey/Dunleavy/Granger/Foster has probably been the most popular lineup in the 4th quarter. Last night our young guys played those minutes, and they aren't used to losing.

2) Giving Roy the confidence and encouragement he needs. I don't have to explain this. Roy was considerably better on defense last night and his offense is coming around.

3) Rotation. Posey hasn't produced. Gone. We almost always had a low post presence in the game, we created the mismatches (George) rather than playing to our opponents, and we paired Danny and Paul together. This was easily the best substitution pattern of the season.

4) Pure speculation here, but our shot selection was remarkably better last night. I'm assuming that was a point of emphasis before the game, but I could be wrong.

5) Allowing the players to play to their strengths. We've already heard this from several players.

6) Intangibles...Frank's poise, use of timeouts, confidence, etc.


This is the first game where we've outcoached the opponent in a very long time. We have a ton of things to improve on, and it's just one game against a struggling team, but the foundation is there for a run.


*edit*-Just to add, I've been pretty nervous about Vogel, and I still am. I really didn't like the way we played in Summer League, so that's all I have to go on. But so far, so good.

BringJackBack
02-01-2011, 12:44 PM
Not sure if anyone has seen this or not- it's pre-game with Vogel yesterday. Loved it as always.



http://www.nba.com/video/teams/pacers/2011/01/31/110131vogelpregameflv-1540126/

He reached out to each player individually yesterday.

DgR
02-01-2011, 02:00 PM
A really good sign for me is the amount of times we went to the FT line... very important to know how to get there if you want to be a good team

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 02:57 PM
IMO he doesn't need to get mad to be an effective coach.


Yep, prime example is John Wooden.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 03:03 PM
we ran a lot different plays that we have never ran. That will take time to fix the TO problem but it will get better.

"change takes time" Frank Vogel


When interviewed after the game, Vogel said he never changed anything. There was not enough time, so he didn't try to put anything different in the game to confuse the players.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 03:07 PM
Lance?

You know Im just instigating you Sookie :)

I almost put him backing up PG, but I'll wait to see how he actually plays/if he actually plays, before going there.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 03:08 PM
I didn't think I'd like D Jones either, but you know I did. I like his physical style. He's like PF on the wing. Granted it needs to be in short small doses, like tonight (10 mins) and like when he was in Denver. I was actually surprised how effective I thought he was. He may be a place holder for BRush, but I'm not opposed to 10 mins of pain in arse D from him off the bench.


IIRC, Dahntay only played about 18 minutes at Denver even though he started.

gummy
02-01-2011, 03:20 PM
When interviewed after the game, Vogel said he never changed anything. There was not enough time, so he didn't try to put anything different in the game to confuse the players.

It's true that Vogel said that, though several of the players indicated that the different use of personnel made a difference in those sets and that some sets were run more often than they used to be (like the pick and roll). No time to grab the links but the quotes from the players about that are spread around through the post-game videos and the post-game articles.

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 03:22 PM
People are listing a lot of things that they liked that I didn't think were very much different. It's nice to see this optimism instead of the pessimistic Obie talk.

I completely agree, but certain people are still campaigning against Dunleavy and Foster, so I fear this won't last long. I don't think the complaining will be nearly as bad or overrun though.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 03:26 PM
When interviewed after the game, Vogel said he never changed anything. There was not enough time, so he didn't try to put anything different in the game to confuse the players.
But Roy said they added new pick and roll plays where they threw it into the low post.

:whoknows:

cdash
02-01-2011, 03:29 PM
I completely agree, but certain people are still campaigning against Dunleavy and Foster, so I fear this won't last long. I don't think the complaining will be nearly as bad or overrun though.

Nah the eye of the storm has passed with Obie gone.

I really hope that we win this game in Cleveland. That would not be good to be the team that halts Cleveland's 21 game losing streak. Vogel would have his "welcome to being an NBA head coach" moment. Plus, if we really are serious about making the playoffs, we can't lose to teams that are as pathetic as the Cavs are.

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 03:29 PM
for now "tweaks"; after a few practices I think Vogel will begin to put his stamp on it

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 03:36 PM
Ranked, in order of what I think is important to the team:

1) Giving the young players a chance to win/lose the game in the 4th.
One of the biggest inaccuracies reported by our players is that we're losing games because of our "inexperience", according to Foster and Granger. Not true. Ford/Posey/Dunleavy/Granger/Foster has probably been the most popular lineup in the 4th quarter. Last night our young guys played those minutes, and they aren't used to losing.

2) Giving Roy the confidence and encouragement he needs. I don't have to explain this. Roy was considerably better on defense last night and his offense is coming around.

3) Rotation. Posey hasn't produced. Gone. We almost always had a low post presence in the game, we created the mismatches (George) rather than playing to our opponents, and we paired Danny and Paul together. This was easily the best substitution pattern of the season.

4) Pure speculation here, but our shot selection was remarkably better last night. I'm assuming that was a point of emphasis before the game, but I could be wrong.

5) Allowing the players to play to their strengths. We've already heard this from several players.

6) Intangibles...Frank's poise, use of timeouts, confidence, etc.


This is the first game where we've outcoached the opponent in a very long time. We have a ton of things to improve on, and it's just one game against a struggling team, but the foundation is there for a run.


*edit*-Just to add, I've been pretty nervous about Vogel, and I still am. I really didn't like the way we played in Summer League, so that's all I have to go on. But so far, so good.

Posey rarely played more than 2-3 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 03:37 PM
Posey rarely played more than 2-3 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball).

:bs:

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 03:50 PM
:bs:

Go look at the minutes since the New York game and you will see that your wrong. No argument even to be made your just wrong. He played extended minutes vs. the Clippers and that was because the other guys were already getting destroyed by Griffin. I assume that what the five or so of you so far are upset over right?

http://www.popcornmachine.net/

Since86
02-01-2011, 03:56 PM
:bs:
This is the third quarter,<TABLE class=mod-data width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR class=odd><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" vAlign=top width=50>3:02</TD><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" vAlign=top>James Posey enters the game for Josh McRoberts</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This is the fourth quarter,
<TABLE class=mod-data width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR class=odd><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" vAlign=top width=50>4:30</TD><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" vAlign=top>Josh McRoberts enters the game for Jeff Foster</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

James Posey was still in the game, when Josh came into the game for Foster.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=310129004&period=0

But yeah, other than facts, spazz's comments are backed by evidence!

EDIT: Spazz you're just wrong. Plain and simple. Posey routinely closed out games, which is why people were so pissed off at Jim. When Josh started, Posey played just as many mintues, and most of them came in the second half.

There's no debating it. You're wrong.

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 03:57 PM
I almost put him backing up PG, but I'll wait to see how he actually plays/if he actually plays, before going there.

The one thing I think we both agree on is.............

Lance is a SG!!! NOT a PG!!!!!!!!!

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 04:00 PM
I didn't even watch the Bulls game. I guess Posey played the first 5:40 of the fourth which still isn't a majority of minutes.


This is the third quarter,<TABLE class=mod-data width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR class=odd><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" vAlign=top width=50>3:02</TD><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" vAlign=top>James Posey enters the game for Josh McRoberts</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This is the fourth quarter,
<TABLE class=mod-data width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR class=odd><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" vAlign=top width=50>4:30</TD><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" vAlign=top>Josh McRoberts enters the game for Jeff Foster</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

James Posey was still in the game, when Josh came into the game for Foster.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=310129004&period=0

But yeah, other than facts, spazz's comments are backed by evidence!

EDIT: Spazz you're just wrong. Plain and simple. Posey routinely closed out games, which is why people were so pissed off at Jim. When Josh started, Posey played just as many mintues, and most of them came in the second half.

There's no debating it. You're wrong.

Since86
02-01-2011, 04:01 PM
Clearly you didn't watch most games if you're going to say that Posey only played 2 or 3 mins in the 4th quarter.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 04:02 PM
I didn't even watch the Bulls game.

Then dont make the comment u did if u miss games

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 04:08 PM
This is the third quarter,<TABLE class=mod-data width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR class=odd><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" vAlign=top width=50>3:02</TD><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" vAlign=top>James Posey enters the game for Josh McRoberts</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This is the fourth quarter,
<TABLE class=mod-data width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR class=odd><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" vAlign=top width=50>4:30</TD><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" vAlign=top>Josh McRoberts enters the game for Jeff Foster</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

James Posey was still in the game, when Josh came into the game for Foster.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=310129004&period=0

But yeah, other than facts, spazz's comments are backed by evidence!

EDIT: Spazz you're just wrong. Plain and simple. Posey routinely closed out games, which is why people were so pissed off at Jim. When Josh started, Posey played just as many mintues, and most of them came in the second half.

There's no debating it. You're wrong.

I have only ever even analyzed the situation or defended Poseys utilization Since the New york game. I actually looked into the stats because I was wondering why Josh wasn't playing. The times prior to that I never tried to defend. I thought this thread was about what was different in this game than what had been happening prior to it, not what happened a month or two ago.

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 04:11 PM
Clearly you didn't watch most games if you're going to say that Posey only played 2 or 3 mins in the 4th quarter.

honesty I watch every game, maybe missed 2 this year. The Chicago game is still on the DVR, I just didn't feel like watching it after the coach got fired the next day.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 04:12 PM
Lance?

You know Im just instigating you Sookie :)



I know Bird wants to see Stephenson get some PT, but the one thing I CAN agree with O'Brien is in his not playing what I feel is a truly "problem child." Sorry, he's already had 2 problems, and I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I read and article yesterday about Shawe Williams. It was about his suspension over the recent game problem with a Hawks player. Needless to say "ex-Pacer player" Shawne Williams blah blah blah. I don't want to have to see that again in connection with Stephenson.

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 04:13 PM
and we thought the beef would die with Obie gone

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 04:15 PM
I know Bird wants to see Stephenson get some PT, but the one thing I CAN agree with O'Brien is in his not playing what I feel is a truly "problem child." Sorry, he's already had 2 problems, and I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I read and article yesterday about Shawe Williams. It was about his suspension over the recent game problem with a Hawks player. Needless to say "ex-Pacer player" Shawne Williams blah blah blah. I don't want to have to see that again in connection with Stephenson.

I understand, and respect your personnel beliefs on Lance,

but Im just sayin why pay someone 1.5 million over two years to not even see if he can play?

Since86
02-01-2011, 04:17 PM
I have only ever even analyzed the situation or defended Poseys utilization Since the New york game. I actually looked into the stats because I was wondering why Josh wasn't playing. The times prior to that I never tried to defend. I thought this thread was about what was different in this game than what had been happening prior to it, not what happened a month or two ago.

I don't know why you're talking about what happened a month or two ago, when Posey was closing out games, and playing more than "2 or 3mins in the 4th," routinely up until Sat night's game.

That's why I have a problem with your statement.

Posey was playing a lot more than "2 or 3mins in the 4th" up until the very end. The trend started at the beginning of the season, and it continued until Jim O'Brien's very last game this season.


This is why we argue over our "attacks" on Posey. You can't even admit how Jim used him!

Since86
02-01-2011, 04:19 PM
I understand, and respect your personnel beliefs on Lance,

but Im just sayin why pay someone 1.5 million over two years to not even see if he can play?

Because his legal troubles started AFTER his contract was signed. He needs to do a lot more than just get convicted if they want to release him, and try not to pay him as much.

He's signed to the contract, so regardless if he plays zero minutes, or 48 minutes a game, he's going to be paid the same.

Right now the decision needs to be whether or not the PR side of the coin trumps the playing side.

The money, at this point in time, is irrelevent. He's going to get paid that money no matter what.

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 04:19 PM
and we thought the beef would die with Obie gone

Don't worry at some point the past will be the past. I was just trying to accurately talk about what has changed with the new coach.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 04:20 PM
But Roy said they added new pick and roll plays where they threw it into the low post.

:whoknows:


Either someone is confused or someone isn't being honest. I just hope Hibbert is confused, b/c I want to believe in what the new coach is saying.

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 04:21 PM
I don't know why you're talking about what happened a month or two ago, when Posey was closing out games, and playing more than "2 or 3mins in the 4th," routinely up until Sat night's game.

That's why I have a problem with your statement.

Posey was playing a lot more than "2 or 3mins in the 4th" up until the very end. The trend started at the beginning of the season, and it continued until Jim O'Brien's very last game this season.


This is why we argue over our "attacks" on Posey. You can't even admit how Jim used him!

You obviously have not looked at the statistics since new York. I am not going to break them down for you. Posey played 5 minutes 40 seceonds in the Fourth during Saturdays game, and did not finish the game. Tyler was also out sick, so I am unsure who else you would consider the third string PF.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 04:23 PM
Either someone is confused or someone isn't being honest. I just hope Hibbert is confused, b/c I want to believe in what the new coach is saying.

It was probably a play they hadn't used in a while. And Hibbert just forgot about it.

pacer4ever
02-01-2011, 04:24 PM
It was probably a play they hadn't used in a while. And Hibbert just forgot about it.

That is wat it was

Since86
02-01-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't need to break down any statistics. I know what I saw.

You're not trying to accurately discuss the changes, because you're not interested in the accuracy of your statements in regards to how James was used in the first place.

This is just a mere continuation of our argument about our "attacks" on Posey. You didn't understand it last week, and you continue to not understand it today.

I don't need to go through every box score and document how many minutes Posey played in the 4th quarter. I don't need to do it, because I've been *****ing about how Jim sat Tyler and Josh down on the bench and would let James close out games because Jim thought the Pacers needed his scoring ability.

My God man, it's the EXACT same discussion we had a few weeks ago when we (Me and UncleBuck) argued who was the better shooter between James and Josh.


You might DVR all the games, but I have to question whether or not you actually watch them once they're saved.

Justin Tyme
02-01-2011, 04:31 PM
I understand, and respect your personnel beliefs on Lance,

but Im just sayin why pay someone 1.5 million over two years to not even see if he can play?


If I thought Bird wanted to see Stephenson play, so as to be able to trade him b4 the deadline, I'd be in total favor. Otherwise, I'd rather not see him in a Pacers uni.

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 04:33 PM
I don't need to break down any statistics. I know what I saw.

You're not trying to accurately discuss the changes, because you're not interested in the accuracy of your statements in regards to how James was used in the first place.

This is just a mere continuation of our argument about our "attacks" on Posey. You didn't understand it last week, and you continue to not understand it today.

I don't need to go through every box score and document how many minutes Posey played in the 4th quarter. I don't need to do it, because I've been *****ing about how Jim sat Tyler and Josh down on the bench and would let James close out games because Jim thought the Pacers needed his scoring ability.

My God man, it's the EXACT same discussion we had a few weeks ago when we (Me and UncleBuck) argued who was the better shooter between James and Josh.


You might DVR all the games, but I have to question whether or not you actually watch them once they're saved.

lol. Look at the signature above your post and return to your arguments yesterday about no one actually bashing Posey. I am not trying to argue with your perception, especially if you don't care about what actually happens.

since you think its to much effort to actually look, here is the last 5 games prior to Vogel taking over.

Fourth quarter minutes for James Posey:

CHI 5:40
Orl 0
Den 1:31
Portland 3:36 (did finish this one)
Golden State 0

http://www.popcornmachine.net/

Since86
02-01-2011, 04:46 PM
And you continue to fail that to understand that the reason why people dislike James' game was due to the way that JIM kept using him.

You know how you kept playing him in the 4th quarter and how he routinely closed out games with Posey at the 4.

But yeah, other than my perception, you are spot on!

spazzxb
02-01-2011, 04:53 PM
And you continue to fail that to understand that the reason why people dislike James' game was due to the way that JIM kept using him.

You know how you kept playing him in the 4th quarter and how he routinely closed out games with Posey at the 4.

But yeah, other than my perception, you are spot on!

I never tried to discuss inspiration in regards to this topic.

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 04:57 PM
Because his legal troubles started AFTER his contract was signed. He needs to do a lot more than just get convicted if they want to release him, and try not to pay him as much.

He's signed to the contract, so regardless if he plays zero minutes, or 48 minutes a game, he's going to be paid the same.

Right now the decision needs to be whether or not the PR side of the coin trumps the playing side.

The money, at this point in time, is irrelevant. He's going to get paid that money no matter what.

What i meant was regarding Justin's comment about not wanting to see Lance play

My point is why spend all the money and not give him a shot?

If the criminal justice system views Lance as non threatening case, and allow him to travel all over the US, then us in Indiana can get off our cross and allow him to play

Since86
02-01-2011, 05:02 PM
Non threatening probably means that they don't view him as a flight risk, and that he will show up in court. Not if he's violent threatening......

And like I said, the money doesn't matter at this point in time, because his contract was signed before the legal problems. If he signed the contract AFTER he had been arrested, then I understand what you're saying.

But when he was arrested, the situation changed, and the TPTB needed to change their views on his potential with it.

Does his negatives (his bad PR) trump his ability on the court?

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 05:17 PM
If I thought Bird wanted to see Stephenson play, so as to be able to trade him b4 the deadline, I'd be in total favor. Otherwise, I'd rather not see him in a Pacers uni.

arent we supposed to forgive, my brother?

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 05:18 PM
Non threatening probably means that they don't view him as a flight risk, and that he will show up in court. Not if he's violent threatening......

And like I said, the money doesn't matter at this point in time, because his contract was signed before the legal problems. If he signed the contract AFTER he had been arrested, then I understand what you're saying.

But when he was arrested, the situation changed, and the TPTB needed to change their views on his potential with it.

Does his negatives (his bad PR) trump his ability on the court?

Straight up: Do you want to see Lance get a chance to play?

Since86
02-01-2011, 05:24 PM
I want to find out what happened that night in NY first. The Pacers have came waaaay to far for one knucklehead to tear it down.

I'm not saying he's guilty, but I'm not saying he's innocent either. I trust Larry to make the right decision. If that decision if for Lance to sit longer, then I want to see him sit. If he thinks that he's either innocent, or that he won't be a PR problem, and he should play, then play him.

My first concern is the Pacers future.

But I'm intrigued by him, I won't lie.

90'sNBARocked
02-01-2011, 05:32 PM
But I'm intrigued by him, I won't lie.

Exactly how I feel man

There has been a lot of hype on Lance and I just want to see what he can do given time. At least we will know if he is worth the effort or not

maragin
02-01-2011, 06:57 PM
I also ran into an old Ball State/ IUPUI player named Josh Murray I used to run with when I played basketball. Didn't figure anyone would remember him though.

Josh Murray had the worst foot funk I've ever been around. He effectively shut down an entire floor in Noyer dorm by leaving his door open. Even though he was a good guy and the basketball program could have used him, we all breathed easier when he left Ball State.

Midcoasted
02-01-2011, 09:33 PM
I've racked my brain to find one fault from the Toronto game from Vogel. Maybe I'm just so used to having a million things to complain about under JOB, but I thought he did a great job. Exactly what I wanted to see. Maybe we find our guy. Crazy to think that our dream coach may have been on the bench all along. That is still TBD.

McKeyFan
02-01-2011, 09:48 PM
I've racked my brain to find one fault from the Toronto game from Vogel. Maybe I'm just so used to having a million things to complain about under JOB, but I thought he did a great job. Exactly what I wanted to see. Maybe we find our guy. Crazy to think that our dream coach may have been on the bench all along. That is still TBD.
It IS pretty strange that the guy did just about everything that most people on this board have been clamoring for all year long.

Either the board is pretty sharp or Frank is a pearl among many shells or JOB was that off the rocker compared to everyone else with a lick of common sense.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 10:00 PM
The only thing I didn't like was Foster and Josh together. But I also understand that with Tyler getting over being sick, and only really having four post players, that there will be a couple of minutes of Foster and McRoberts together. It also, wasn't a ridiculous combination. Just not a great one.

Midcoasted
02-01-2011, 10:03 PM
It IS pretty strange that the guy did just about everything that most people on this board have been clamoring for all year long.

Either the board is pretty sharp or Frank is a pearl among many shells or JOB was that off the rocker compared to everyone else with a lick of common sense.

Whatever it is, I'm just glad it's finally happening, and this franchise can move in the direction we all dream for it to go! That burden that no matter what our young guys did right, they would be benched at the end of the games for subpar veterans and cost us the game almost everytime, weighed to heavily on us all.

I feel a weight has finally been lifted off the players and the fans shoulders, but hopefully that weight just made our legs stronger for our run in the future! :happydanc

Hicks
02-01-2011, 10:31 PM
IF my power stays on :pray: , I can't wait for tomorrow night. I want to see more of this team.

cdash
02-01-2011, 10:40 PM
IF my power stays on :pray: , I can't wait for tomorrow night. I want to see more of this team.

If my power goes out, there is a very real chance I go bat**** insane and start hunting squirrels in the backyard. I need the power tomorrow so I can keep my sanity, watch my Pacers, and watch my depleted Hoosiers.

DaveP63
02-02-2011, 09:21 AM
I like the fact that I now watch games without a sense of dread. Will I be disappointed if we lose? Of course. But I will no longer dread watching the train wreck.

Unclebuck
02-02-2011, 09:26 AM
I.

Posey was playing a lot more than "2 or 3mins in the 4th" up until the very end. The trend started at the beginning of the season, and it continued until Jim O'Brien's very last game this season.


This is why we argue over our "attacks" on Posey. You can't even admit how Jim used him!

Not really true, Posey's minutes went way down once Tyler started playing in fact he had two games he didn't play and another where he played 5 seconds. Not that is matters anymore

Hicks
02-02-2011, 12:28 PM
Not really true, Posey's minutes went way down once Tyler started playing in fact he had two games he didn't play and another where he played 5 seconds. Not that is matters anymore

From @CHI to vs SA (the ten games played since Tyler started at PF)

18, 18, 15, 14, 20, 14, 8, 11, 15, and 0.

That's ten games, to let's look at the ten games before vs. SAS, starting with @NYK:

19, 23, 12, 18, 18, 19, 18, 24, 19, and 33.

So in the 10 games since Tyler started and Jim was still here, James played in 9 games, and in those 9 he averaged about 15 minutes.

In the 10 games prior to Tyler starting, James played in all of them, and he averaged about 20 minutes.

So he went down by 5 minutes, 20 to 15.

BillS
02-02-2011, 01:12 PM
From @CHI to vs SA (the ten games played since Tyler started at PF)

18, 18, 15, 14, 20, 14, 8, 11, 15, and 0.

That's ten games, to let's look at the ten games before vs. SAS, starting with @NYK:

19, 23, 12, 18, 18, 19, 18, 24, 19, and 33.

So in the 10 games since Tyler started and Jim was still here, James played in 9 games, and in those 9 he averaged about 15 minutes.

In the 10 games prior to Tyler starting, James played in all of them, and he averaged about 20 minutes.

So he went down by 5 minutes, 20 to 15.

I thought the conversation was about 4th quarter minutes, not total minutes.

Not that I have a dog in this hunt, just trying to keep it clear...

Unclebuck
02-02-2011, 02:41 PM
From @CHI to vs SA (the ten games played since Tyler started at PF)

18, 18, 15, 14, 20, 14, 8, 11, 15, and 0.



Not a major point but there were 12 games starting with the Spurs game and ending with the game at Chicago
he played .01 - yes 1 second against the Spurs, so starting with that

.01
14
0
11
6
14
0
20
14
15
18
17

My source is Pacers.com box scores.

so his average went from averaging 20 minutes per game to below 11 minutes per ,

Hicks the only difference in the numbers is you didn't factor in one of the games he didn't play and the game where he playd 1 second. but my point was that once Tyler started game (Spurs game)

Hicks
02-02-2011, 02:50 PM
Are you letting the 0, 0, and 0.1 figure into that bellow 11 minutes figure?

CableKC
02-02-2011, 03:07 PM
Although we only have a 1 game sample and realistically...there isn't any real way to guage this properly....but was there anything different on the offensive and defensive end that Vogel did that was different and the same compared to JO'B?

I noticed the following:

- We continued to go to Hibbert inside the low-post regardless of how well they did....but instead of going away from when he started to struggle...they continued to feed him to get him involved.
- Obviously, there was a set 10-man rotation which helped out a lot. Getting BRush back will only make the rotation clearer and better.

Defensively....was there anything different or similiar?

90'sNBARocked
02-02-2011, 03:09 PM
its funny to me we are finally NOT seeing Posey, yet he remains the topic of conversation

:)

BillS
02-02-2011, 03:26 PM
its funny to me we are finally NOT seeing Posey, yet he remains the topic of conversation

:)

In my case, it is because he actually does bring something to the floor, just not in the quantities he was being used and in the way he was expected.

I'd bring him off the bench for a defensive burst when there is already offense on the floor. I wouldn't bring him off the bench for 3-pt shooting or every time the team was behind late in the 4th quarter thus signaling 3-pt shooting is the strategy for the rest of the game.

Unclebuck
02-02-2011, 03:51 PM
Are you letting the 0, 0, and 0.1 figure into that bellow 11 minutes figure?

yes

spazzxb
02-02-2011, 04:09 PM
Are you letting the 0, 0, and 0.1 figure into that bellow 11 minutes figure?

Why wouldn't he?


its funny to me we are finally NOT seeing Posey, yet he remains the topic of conversation

:)

I also want to add, because i was unintentionally involved in igniting this Posey talk. I simply tried to point out that the following statement was inaccurate.


Ford/Posey/Dunleavy/Granger/Foster has probably been the most popular lineup in the 4th quarter.

I Then got pulled into an argument I didn't really want to participate in and came to a realization it was a complete waste of time.

Hicks
02-02-2011, 04:26 PM
Well, call me crazy, but I thought the goal was to get a number demonstrating the average amount of time he spent on the floor in games where he was supposed to actually be part of the rotation, as opposed to games where he wasn't part of the plans and/or barely played at all. Including those 3 just skews a number we're all interested in.

spazzxb
02-02-2011, 04:32 PM
Well, call me crazy, but I thought the goal was to get a number demonstrating the average amount of time he spent on the floor in games where he was supposed to actually be part of the rotation, as opposed to games where he wasn't part of the plans and/or barely played at all. Including those 3 just skews a number we're all interested in.

Well then we have absolutely no data to compare it to, since Vogel played him 0 jk. I just tried to point out that changes were being made before Vogel took over.

They flamed me for mentioning Posey, but this was the point of my post that started all of this and was ignored.


The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.

Since86
02-02-2011, 05:53 PM
It wasn't ignored, it wasn't talked about because of the glaring unfactual statement you made in the very first line of your post.

Do I really need to go line by line and agree or disagree with it? If I disagreed with it, I would have said something then. I didn't.

Since86
02-02-2011, 05:56 PM
In my case, it is because he actually does bring something to the floor, just not in the quantities he was being used and in the way he was expected.

I'd bring him off the bench for a defensive burst when there is already offense on the floor. I wouldn't bring him off the bench for 3-pt shooting or every time the team was behind late in the 4th quarter thus signaling 3-pt shooting is the strategy for the rest of the game.


Exactly.

If that would have been the way Jim used Posey, instead of using him so much in the 4th because of his awesome shooting ability, there wouldn't have been much of a problem on this front.

90'sNBARocked
02-02-2011, 05:59 PM
In my case, it is because he actually does bring something to the floor, just not in the quantities he was being used and in the way he was expected.

I'd bring him off the bench for a defensive burst when there is already offense on the floor. I wouldn't bring him off the bench for 3-pt shooting or every time the team was behind late in the 4th quarter thus signaling 3-pt shooting is the strategy for the rest of the game.

well Bill, I agree

I think Posey is not near as bad as some think here

spazzxb
02-02-2011, 06:05 PM
It wasn't ignored, it wasn't talked about because of the glaring unfactual statement you made in the very first line of your post.

Do I really need to go line by line and agree or disagree with it? If I disagreed with it, I would have said something then. I didn't.

going forward, this is all I need to know about you.


I don't need to break down any statistics. I know what I saw.

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 06:10 PM
Hey guys, guess what, it doesn't matter anymore!!! O'Brien is gone and so is small ball with Posey! Hooray for traditional big man rotations!

spazzxb
02-02-2011, 06:19 PM
Hey guys, guess what, it doesn't matter anymore!!! O'Brien is gone and so is small ball with Posey! Hooray for traditional big man rotations!

As long as everyone stays healthy, your probably right. The new thing will probably be explaining to the NC faithful why josh starting doesn't mean anything bad about Tyler. It'll be nice to be in the majority.

ilive4sports
02-02-2011, 06:21 PM
As long as everyone stays healthy, your probably right. The new thing will probably be explaining to the NC faithful why josh starting doesn't mean anything bad about Tyler. It'll be nice to be in the majority.

The worst offender of that got banned so I don't think it will be too big of a deal.

Since86
02-02-2011, 06:38 PM
going forward, this is all I need to know about you.

Yeah you're right, except the fact that no one has defended your position but you. You need to take another look at Bill's last sentence.

And I said that because I'm not going to go spend 30mins compiling game stats from the running box score when everyone and their brother has the same conclusion except YOU.

spazzxb
02-02-2011, 07:15 PM
Yeah you're right, except the fact that no one has defended your position but you. You need to take another look at Bill's last sentence.


I don't need anyone to. You do realize your the only one arguing with me right? Furthermore, your arguing against something I never said.

Since86
02-02-2011, 07:20 PM
Posey rarely played more than 2-3 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances).

Yep, you didn't say it. Just my imagination.

And I'm the only one arguing with you, because I'm the only one dumb enough to continue arguing over such a blantant false statement for multiple days. Check that....multiple months.

spazzxb
02-02-2011, 07:23 PM
Yep, you didn't say it. Just my imagination.

exactly. Jk Actually I just think your confused.

Hicks
02-03-2011, 12:01 AM
I don't need anyone to. You do realize your the only one arguing with me right? Furthermore, your arguing against something I never said.

He may be the only one to actually argue with you, but he's not the only one who disagrees. The rest of us just got wise and stopped.

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 12:11 AM
He may be the only one to actually argue with you, but he's not the only one who disagrees. The rest of us just got wise and stopped.

What exactly may I ask are you disagreeing with? That person was trying to discredit me by saying I have no friends. Is this what you are running to defend? I am seriously wondering if you actually even know my point of view, or do you just have a perception based on what other people say about me.

completely unrelated: The thanks button was a novel idea, that is horribly misused by people who don't want to defend their positions.

PaceBalls
02-03-2011, 12:48 AM
What exactly may I ask are you disagreeing with? That person was trying to discredit me by saying I have no friends. Is this what you are running to defend? I am seriously wondering if you actually even know my point of view, or do you just have a perception based on what other people say about me.

completely unrelated: The thanks button was a novel idea, that is horribly misused by people who don't want to defend their positions.

I have always loved NaptownSeth's dismerit and add cheese buttons. I would love to see PD add another option to show the opposite of "thanks". Even if it would get abused.. it still would be cool, and think of all the good drama involved! ;)

Maybe make it so only members can use them?

I jokingly talked about the drama, but it might actually cut down on the drama if people could just show their displeasure by clicking a button instead of a flaming, agro post?

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 01:20 AM
I just want one of these people, who are in such strong opposition to me, to explain why I am wrong to say recently, this is an inaccurate statement?

"Ford/Posey/Dunleavy/Granger/Foster has probably been the most popular lineup in the 4th quarter."

Seriously, am I crazy, because I feel like I could have been saying said 2+2=4. TJ has been benched and the majority of minutes is more than 6 in a quarter.

15th parallel
02-03-2011, 01:21 AM
This can be added as one you can like about Vogel:

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/02/a-win-is-a-win-for-the-pacers/


Danny Granger pointed out that they actually ran plays late in the game.

“We were running plays late where we knew where everybody was going to be at,” Granger said. “It helps when we know what to expect instead of just being out there moving. That helps at the end of games.”

gummy
02-03-2011, 01:35 AM
This can be added as one you can like about Vogel:

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/02/02/a-win-is-a-win-for-the-pacers/

Danny Granger pointed out that they actually ran plays late in the game.

“We were running plays late where we knew where everybody was going to be at,” Granger said. “It helps when we know what to expect instead of just being out there moving. That helps at the end of games.”



I'm doing more than thanking this post because I think it's a pretty big deal. One of the major criticisms of JOB's "motion offense" that I've seen repeated a lot was that it was simply too difficult for the guys to implement as a unit, and some pointed out that this was a particular problem in pressure situations like those in the 4th quarter of a tight game. Sounds like Danny thought so too.

gummy
02-03-2011, 01:55 AM
I also think it's interesting they've really not changed the plays all that much yet, it's just that they are running what they know with much more frequency. And it's not like we can't have plenty of passing in a structured offensive set, it's just that the players have a better idea of where their best passing options will be on the floor when they're not focusing as much on pure read and react.

I'm cautiously optimistic. I suspect the turnovers will go down some as the guys get more comfortable running the plays and more important, get used to a pretty regular rotation and establish some chemistry with it. We'll see!

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 02:19 AM
I have always loved NaptownSeth's dismerit and add cheese buttons. I would love to see PD add another option to show the opposite of "thanks". Even if it would get abused.. it still would be cool, and think of all the good drama involved! ;)

Maybe make it so only members can use them?

I jokingly talked about the drama, but it might actually cut down on the drama if people could just show their displeasure by clicking a button instead of a flaming, agro post?

Thanks for adding something usefull:-)

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 03:00 AM
Yep, you didn't say it. Just my imagination.

And I'm the only one arguing with you, because I'm the only one dumb enough to continue arguing over such a blantant false statement for multiple days. Check that....multiple months.

I missed that you quoted me. I set a clear timeframe on that. The only extended minutes game recently was the Clippers game, in which i would argue Posey did better than anyone else(I do not want to actually have this argument again). Regardless at no point did I make any reference or implication as to why people don't like James Posey, or offer any level of support for him. I know why people don't like him. Also I honestly just realized you posted this quote, therefore I want to apologize if it appeared I just ignored you.

1984
02-03-2011, 09:29 AM
I like many things. I think what he is asking the team to do is very practical and is very natural to most basketball players. With that in mind, is this the real Frank Vogel, or just a man who is looking for early success by making things simple? Obviously, he can not be expected to make significant changes at this juncture. He has to work with what he has in the time he has.

So far, my grade for Vogel is a "B +." He needs to bring focus to this teams defense and turnover problems if he wants to get wins against better teams.

McKeyFan
02-03-2011, 09:50 AM
Danny Granger pointed out that they actually ran plays late in the game.

“We were running plays late where we knew where everybody was going to be at,” Granger said. “It helps when we know what to expect instead of just being out there moving. That helps at the end of games.”
This is still maddening to me. How did it go on for so long?

NapTonius Monk
02-03-2011, 09:51 AM
arent we supposed to forgive, my brother?
Plus, this other situation hasn't played itself out yet. We don't even know all the facts yet. I have no problem with them waiting to see what actually happened, than to unfairly ditch him based on prejudice. That said, at a minimum, Lance better recognize that even appearances can be costly. But I'm growing weary of this posture like we're above giving people a second chance. I think we'll do a better job of setting boundaries, and holding people accountable. But last I checked, the Pacers logo doesn't have angel wings, or a halo.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 10:44 AM
Well, call me crazy, but I thought the goal was to get a number demonstrating the average amount of time he spent on the floor in games where he was supposed to actually be part of the rotation, as opposed to games where he wasn't part of the plans and/or barely played at all. Including those 3 just skews a number we're all interested in.

I think it is even more instructive to see that he failed to play in 3 of the 12 games because prior to that I had only missed 1 games in the first through the first 32.

And my post was in direct response to Since86 Posey was playing a lot more than "2 or 3mins in the 4th" up until the very end. The trend started at the beginning of the season, and it continued until Jim O'Brien's very last game this season.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 10:49 AM
I'm doing more than thanking this post because I think it's a pretty big deal. One of the major criticisms of JOB's "motion offense" that I've seen repeated a lot was that it was simply too difficult for the guys to implement as a unit, and some pointed out that this was a particular problem in pressure situations like those in the 4th quarter of a tight game. Sounds like Danny thought so too.

Just to add some balance. One play they ran last night several times in the last 6 minutes was the high screen and roll with Danny and Roy. That was one of Jim's bread and butter plays late in the game as well. A play that was often criticized in this forum and a play that I complimented as one of our best and most effective.

Since86
02-03-2011, 11:53 AM
I missed that you quoted me. I set a clear timeframe on that. The only extended minutes game recently was the Clippers game, in which i would argue Posey did better than anyone else(I do not want to actually have this argument again). Regardless at no point did I make any reference or implication as to why people don't like James Posey, or offer any level of support for him. I know why people don't like him. Also I honestly just realized you posted this quote, therefore I want to apologize if it appeared I just ignored you.

No you didn't set a clear time frame on anything.

You said that Posey rarely played in the 4th quarter, and if he did, he only played 2 or 3 mins.

That's not correct if we're talking about 2mons ago, and that's not correct one month ago, and that wasn't correct the VERY LAST GAME Jim coached....

I don't know how else to say it.

James Posey routinely closed out games, and played a big portion of the 4th quarter, because Jim thought his 3pt shooting ability was more important than anything else.

That's the whole story. End of it.

The notion that he barely played in the 4th, and only 2 or 3 mins when he did, is 100% completely false. I don't care if you're talking about last week, or in Dec.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 12:23 PM
OK, since the 4th quarter minutes seem to be the issue. I went back through the prior 17 games (not counting Vogel's first two games). if we throw out the 3 Posey didn't play at all.

We are looking at 14 games going back to Christmas. I hope this is a big enough sample.

In those 14 games he averages 4.47 minutes.

here is the breakdown in reverse order
Bulls - played first 5.5 minutes of 4th quarter. Did not finish
Nets - played first 3 minutes and 11 seconds. Did not finish
Nugs - played first 1 minute 30 seconds. Did not finis
Blazers - was brought in for last 3.37 of game. Did not play first 8.5 mninutes
Clips - played first 3.5 minutes and last 5 minutes and 30 seconds
Bulls - played first 5 mins
mavs - played first 1 minute of quarter - did not come back in
Hawks - played first 5 minutes did not come back in
Knicks - played all 12 minutes
Wiz - played last 8.48 of game
Wiz - out with 8.43 not brought back in
Celts - played first 1 minute 35 seconds. None after that
Grizz - played last 4.40 of game. None the rest of quarter
Magic he did not get any 4th quarter minutes.

what does this prove. Not sure, maybe we need to look at the prior games. He only finished 4 of these 14 games though and as I mentioned only averaged 4 minutes and 47 seconds.

You can decide what if anything this means.

I suppose both are wrong. Posey played more than 2 or 3 minutes in the 4th quarters, and yes Since86 you aren't entirely correct either. he did not finish the majority of the games nor did he play the majority of the 4th quarter minutes

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 12:28 PM
No you didn't set a clear time frame on anything.

You said that Posey rarely played in the 4th quarter, and if he did, he only played 2 or 3 mins.

That's not correct if we're talking about 2mons ago, and that's not correct one month ago, and that wasn't correct the VERY LAST GAME Jim coached....

I don't know how else to say it.

James Posey routinely closed out games, and played a big portion of the 4th quarter, because Jim thought his 3pt shooting ability was more important than anything else.

That's the whole story. End of it.

The notion that he barely played in the 4th, and only 2 or 3 mins when he did, is 100% completely false. I don't care if you're talking about last week, or in Dec.

Just make a note that I know why people didn't like Posey. I was never arguing that there weren't reasons. Please don't try and turn the next thread you see me in into this same old argument.

Since86
02-03-2011, 12:31 PM
There needs to be more information, which is why I didn't want to go through it all.

Throw away games, like when the Pacers are completely out of the game in the 4th should be thrown out, regardless if he played or not.

The issue is that Posey closed out close games. The Chicago game is the perfect example. You have your starting PF playing his career game scoring wise with 20pts through 3qtrs, who also happens to plays better defense, and then he sits for 15mins of game time, which is about 30-35mins of real time.

That was unexcuseable. I don't care if he needs an IV bag after the game, he should have been given the chance to play meaningful minutes in the 4th.

If you sit him the final 3mins, which he did, and then let him get his rest inbetween quarters, he gets a good 10mins of real time rest.

That should have been plenty. He should have been reinserted into the lineup. He wasn't. Posey continued playing the next 7mins of the game.

I think 14 games is a good sample. I'm not going through every game.

My memory is that he finished fewer games in the month of November and more in the month of December. But I would argue that if you looked at all those games, I would bet that he averaged around 4 and a half minutes and finished about every 4 in 14 games 30% of the time.

Since86
02-03-2011, 12:32 PM
Just make a note that I know why people didn't like Posey. I was never arguing that there weren't reasons. Please don't try and turn the next thread you see me in into this same old argument.

If you don't want called out on what YOU said, then don't say it.

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 12:38 PM
If you don't want called out on what YOU said, then don't say it.

I expect people to call me out if they disagree, just don't put words in my mouth. i gotta go for now.

Have fun

Since86
02-03-2011, 12:47 PM
Put words in your mouth? So you're telling me that you didn't say this?


Posey rarely played more than 2-3 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances).

That's the only thing I've claimed you said, and right there is the quote. Those are your words, not mine. I didn't change one thing.

Even UB disagrees with that statement.

JOB would have played Jeff and Posey the last 6 minutes of the game and I think that would have helpd the pacers defense. But Roy and Josh have to leran, but Roy was taken advantage of defensively for most of the game.

He say's that, because Jim made it a habit to play Posey in the 4th quarter of close games. You're the only one that doesn't think so.

I'm not confused, I'm not lying, and I'm not putting words in your mouth.

I'm quoting what you said directly.

Part Timer
02-03-2011, 01:06 PM
OK, since the 4th quarter minutes seem to be the issue. I went back through the prior 17 games (not counting Vogel's first two games). if we throw out the 3 Posey didn't play at all.

We are looking at 14 games going back to Christmas. I hope this is a big enough sample.

In those 14 games he averages 4.47 minutes.

here is the breakdown in reverse order
Bulls - played first 5.5 minutes of 4th quarter. Did not finish
Nets - played first 3 minutes and 11 seconds. Did not finish
Nugs - played first 1 minute 30 seconds. Did not finis
Blazers - was brought in for last 3.37 of game. Did not play first 8.5 mninutes
Clips - played first 3.5 minutes and last 5 minutes and 30 seconds
Bulls - played first 5 mins
mavs - played first 1 minute of quarter - did not come back in
Hawks - played first 5 minutes did not come back in
Knicks - played all 12 minutes
Wiz - played last 8.48 of game
Wiz - out with 8.43 not brought back in
Celts - played first 1 minute 35 seconds. None after that
Grizz - played last 4.40 of game. None the rest of quarter
Magic he did not get any 4th quarter minutes.

what does this prove. Not sure, maybe we need to look at the prior games. He only finished 4 of these 14 games though and as I mentioned only averaged 4 minutes and 47 seconds.

You can decide what if anything this means.

I suppose both are wrong. Posey played more than 2 or 3 minutes in the 4th quarters, and yes Since86 you aren't entirely correct either. he did not finish the majority of the games nor did he play the majority of the 4th quarter minutes

Do you have a source for this info or did you review the 4th quarter of games you had recorded?

Just curious. If you're correct it's certainly an interesting reference point.

xBulletproof
02-03-2011, 01:10 PM
Do you have a source for this info or did you review the 4th quarter of games you had recorded?

Just curious. If you're correct it's certainly an interesting reference point.

NBA.com box scores have play by play, including when players check in and out of the games.

Major Cold
02-03-2011, 02:35 PM
I think it is way too early to even say that he is a good coach. We have played two teams who have lost a combined 30+ plus.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 02:40 PM
Do you have a source for this info or did you review the 4th quarter of games you had recorded?

Just curious. If you're correct it's certainly an interesting reference point.

Pacers.com play by play. If you are curious, go to the schedule and then click on the score to each game that will bring up the box score and there is a play by play that you can click on and it shows every shot and every substitution.

Part Timer
02-03-2011, 02:52 PM
Pacers.com play by play. If you are curious, go to the schedule and then click on the score to each game that will bring up the box score and there is a play by play that you can click on and it shows every shot and every substitution.

Thanks. I got it. I had been looking through espn's play by play and didn't see any substitutions.

Sookie
02-03-2011, 05:23 PM
OK, since the 4th quarter minutes seem to be the issue. I went back through the prior 17 games (not counting Vogel's first two games). if we throw out the 3 Posey didn't play at all.

We are looking at 14 games going back to Christmas. I hope this is a big enough sample.

In those 14 games he averages 4.47 minutes.

here is the breakdown in reverse order
Bulls - played first 5.5 minutes of 4th quarter. Did not finish
Nets - played first 3 minutes and 11 seconds. Did not finish
Nugs - played first 1 minute 30 seconds. Did not finis
Blazers - was brought in for last 3.37 of game. Did not play first 8.5 mninutes
Clips - played first 3.5 minutes and last 5 minutes and 30 seconds
Bulls - played first 5 mins
mavs - played first 1 minute of quarter - did not come back in
Hawks - played first 5 minutes did not come back in
Knicks - played all 12 minutes
Wiz - played last 8.48 of game
Wiz - out with 8.43 not brought back in
Celts - played first 1 minute 35 seconds. None after that
Grizz - played last 4.40 of game. None the rest of quarter
Magic he did not get any 4th quarter minutes.

what does this prove. Not sure, maybe we need to look at the prior games. He only finished 4 of these 14 games though and as I mentioned only averaged 4 minutes and 47 seconds.

You can decide what if anything this means.

I suppose both are wrong. Posey played more than 2 or 3 minutes in the 4th quarters, and yes Since86 you aren't entirely correct either. he did not finish the majority of the games nor did he play the majority of the 4th quarter minutes

That data is skewed though. He doesn't finish out/play heavy minutes in blow outs, he finishes out and plays heavy minutes with close games.

When you take that into consideration, him not playing a lot in the fourth is the exception, not the rule.

Unclebuck
02-03-2011, 05:28 PM
That data is skewed though. He doesn't finish out/play heavy minutes in blow outs, he finishes out and plays heavy minutes with close games.

When you take that into consideration, him not playing a lot in the fourth is the exception, not the rule.

well then you or someone else go through each and every game and dicipher all the info. I think my nuimbers are a goofd guide give or take a a minute or two. it is a decent guide to what Posey did. Posey generally played more in games the pacers trailed op I guess I don't agree with your point. he played less when the pacers blew the other team out

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 07:00 PM
well then you or someone else go through each and every game and dicipher all the info. I think my nuimbers are a goofd guide give or take a a minute or two. it is a decent guide to what Posey did. Posey generally played more in games the pacers trailed op I guess I don't agree with your point. he played less when the pacers blew the other team out

Whether its 2-3 minutes(which was just an educated guess), or 4-5 removing 0's really makes no impact on the point I was trying to make. I do, however, appreciate you taking time to do this.


No you didn't set a clear time frame on anything.


Since I mentioned Tj was benched as a reason that his spot on that list was incorrect, I think it was safe to assume I was talking about something recent. In following posts I repeatedly said "since the New York game." Even more specifically I have stated that I only even payed close attention to Poseys minutes since the 5 day break following the New york game(a couple things changed then).

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 07:32 PM
Just to put this whole mess back into context and hopefully move forward, I am reposting the debated post. Heck I will even change my numbers.


Posey rarely played more than 4-5(edited# 2-3 prior) minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.

in response to


1) Giving the young players a chance to win/lose the game in the 4th.
One of the biggest inaccuracies reported by our players is that we're losing games because of our "inexperience", according to Foster and Granger. Not true. Ford/Posey/Dunleavy/Granger/Foster has probably been the most popular lineup in the 4th quarter. Last night our young guys played those minutes, and they aren't used to losing.

This whole conversation was meant to be about what changed when Vogel took over. This is the only conversation I am trying to have here.

xBulletproof
02-03-2011, 08:45 PM
Hey guys, it doesn't matter. O'Brien is gone.

:)

gummy
02-03-2011, 09:33 PM
Hey guys, it doesn't matter. O'Brien is gone.

:)

It's going to matter to some people well into the off-season, I'd guess.

But yeah, let me second that!

:kegboypreachit:

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 10:57 PM
It's going to matter to some people well into the off-season, I'd guess.

But yeah, let me second that!

:kegboypreachit:

Maybe some, but I am not one to get stuck in the past. I am trying to keep this about Vogel, and only was trying to talk about the state of the team immediately before he assumed command. I would be perfectly content if no one mentions "he who should not be named" ever again.

pwee31
02-03-2011, 11:08 PM
There are some that will back O'Brien until no one really cares anymore. There are some that may dislike O'Brien, but still use him to prove their points. They'll try to continue to get their point across, they're be the 1st to chime in when Vogel makes a mistake, or the Pacers lose a game under him.

They're in the minority, so just let them have their say and only comment if you feel like a healthy debate.

Same thing happened when Carlisle was let go, same thing happened when Stephen Jackson was traded.

Everyone has their own opinions about rotations, coaches, individual players etc.. That's good, that's what makes this forum enjoyable, but let's remember that the majority are fans of the Indiana Pacers, and well... I don't always feel that way about this board like I us to.

Even though I HATED Jim O'Brien, I still pulled for the Pacers to win, and I was happy when they were winning, regardless of coach, and complain when they were losing, sometimes b/c the players stunk it up, and sometimes b/c I personally felt the coach made bad decisions.

Now the Pacers have Vogel as a coach and our 2-0. Yes there are plenty of things the team still needs to work on, but I'm surprised they're still so much disagreement?

imawhat
02-03-2011, 11:11 PM
Just to put this whole mess back into context and hopefully move forward, I am reposting the debated post. Heck I will even change my numbers.


Posey rarely played more than 4-5 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by spazzxb http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/PDbuttons//viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1152535#post1152535)
Posey rarely played more than 4-5 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by spazzxb http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/PDbuttons//viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1152535#post1152535)
Posey rarely played more than 4-5 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by spazzxb http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/PDbuttons//viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1152535#post1152535)
Posey rarely played more than 4-5 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

in response to


This whole conversation was meant to be about what changed when Vogel took over. This is the only conversation I am trying to have here.

And here's what was really posted.



http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1152535&postcount=139

Posey rarely played more than 2-3 minutes in the fourth, if he played. The couple times he got extended minutes it was because he had been out performing the other guys (hot from three better on defense in specific circumstances). Tj Ford had been planted on the bench for a while before this shakeup. The only real lineup change I saw other than DJ and Rush's injury was a commitment to the traditional bigman rotation( 0 small ball). George has been earning more minutes for a few games now , but the new coach did let him finish the game out out which is good.

Quit moving the goal posts.

spazzxb
02-03-2011, 11:21 PM
And here's what was really posted.



Quit moving the goal posts.

I commented directly before that I was changing the numbers. I changed them to UB's number to emphasize that it really doesn't matter. I updated the post to make it more clear. You want to see what the numbers are if we include the 3 times he didn't play in the fourth? (3.68 I think)

Since86
02-04-2011, 01:39 PM
And like I said directly after UB posted those numbers, and just like Sookie said later, the numbers don't mean a whole lot without taking context into them.

The numbers that need to be posted, are the numbers when it was a close game. Blowouts either way shouldn't be taken into account.

Like I said earlier, the Chicago game was a perfect example. Jim took Josh out with 3mins to go in the 3rd when he already had 20pts in favor of Posey, and then Josh didn't return until 5mins left in the 4th (and he didn't even replace Posey) while James played almost the entire 4th.

The minutes UB listed don't show a whole lot without context.

Unclebuck
02-04-2011, 02:30 PM
Like I said earlier, the Chicago game was a perfect example. Jim took Josh out with 3mins to go in the 3rd when he already had 20pts in favor of Posey, and then Josh didn't return until 5mins left in the 4th (and he didn't even replace Posey) while James played almost the entire 4th.



if you are talking about the game Saturday night in Chicago. Posey did not almost play the entire 4th quarter. he played the first 5 minutes and 39 seconds of the 4th quarter. He did not play after that. Posey was taken out well before Josh came back in.

Was my prior list of games unclear?

if you want to give me the list of games that were close and you think would be enlightening I will look at only those games. The Bulls game for example was close until the 4th quarter and then ended up being a 21 point blowout, so I don't know if that would be a game to look at or a blowout. But I'll let you decide which games are which

McKeyFan
02-04-2011, 02:36 PM
Scroll is a wonderful tool.

Since86
02-04-2011, 02:38 PM
How many times do I need to say that I don't think you're list shows anything, becaues it doesn't have the context of the games with them?

Sorry, I thought Posey made it to the 4min mark and was taken out at that media timeout.

Unclebuck
02-04-2011, 02:42 PM
How many times do I need to say that I don't think you're list shows anything, becaues it doesn't have the context of the games with them?

Sorry, I thought Posey made it to the 4min mark and was taken out at that media timeout.

OK the pacers have played 9 games this season that were decided by 5 points or less. would all of those games fit your criteria. Before I do the work I want to make sure you won't just discount what those 9 games show.

Sookie
02-04-2011, 02:46 PM
Bulls - played first 5.5 minutes of 4th quarter. Did not finish
Nets - played first 3 minutes and 11 seconds. Did not finish
Orlando- didn’t get any fourth quarter minutes
Nugs - played first 1 minute 30 seconds. Did not finish
Blazers - was brought in for last 3.37 of game. Did not play first 8.5 mninutes
Golden State-did not play
Clips - played first 3.5 minutes and last 5 minutes and 30 seconds
Bulls - played first 5 mins
mavs - played first 1 minute of quarter - did not come back in
Phil-did not play
Hawks - played first 5 minutes did not come back in
Spurs - one second
Knicks - played all 12 minutes
Wiz - played last 8.48 of game
Wiz - out with 8.43 not brought back in
Celts - played first 1 minute 35 seconds. None after that
Grizz - played last 4.40 of game. None the rest of quarter…it was close, then we brought Posey in.

Chicago- 89-110 L
Nets -124-92 W
Orlando - 96-111 L
Denver - 107-121 L
Portland - 92-97 L
Golden State -108-110 L
LA Clippers -107-114 L
Chicago - 86-99 L
Dallas 102-89 W
Phil 111-103 W
Atlanta - 93-108 L
Spurs 87-90 L
New York 92-98 L
Washington 95-86 W
Washington 90-104 L
Boston 83-95
Memphis 90-104

Pacers had 8 close games, he played major 4th quarter minutes all but three of them

Essentially, I looked at all the games that were within 10. I figured more than that and it wasn't close. "Major fourth quarter minutes" Was and/or played at least six minutes or played the last 4.

weirdly, 2 of the DNPs were of the three exceptions.

Major Cold
02-04-2011, 02:49 PM
UB it either indicates that Posey did not finish as is reported on PD and JOB's subs are too sporadic.

or

Posey is finishing in close games and JOB adjusts the rotation to the opponent.

Both indicate that he has a niches, and both are flaws. I am all about adjusting rotations, but having Posey close games against Pryzbilla and Amare is foolishness.

Since86
02-04-2011, 02:54 PM
OK the pacers have played 9 games this season that were decided by 5 points or less. would all of those games fit your criteria. Before I do the work I want to make sure you won't just discount what those 9 games show.

No.

I'm talking about games that were close when Posey entered the game, not the final score.......

Unclebuck
02-04-2011, 02:56 PM
OK, I looked at the 9 games that were decided by 5 points or less.

He averaged 16 minutes and 48 seconds played for the whole game and averaged 3 minutes 40 seconds played in the 4th quarter of those 9 games. The numbers are skewed though because in 4 of the 9 games he did not log any minutes in the 4th quarter at all. But isn't that an even more important point in almost half of the games this season decided by 5 points or less Posey didn't play at all in the fourth quarter.

Doesn't that blow the argument that he played more in close games.

Unclebuck
02-04-2011, 02:58 PM
No.

I'm talking about games that were close when Posey entered the game, not the final score.......

There is nothing else i can do I guess,. I picked the most recent 17 games - you didn't like that approach. I picked the closest games and you didn't like that. Now you want me to decide what games were close when Posey game into the game. Sorry, I'm done.

Since86
02-04-2011, 03:02 PM
There is nothing else i can do I guess,. I picked the most recent 17 games - you didn't like that approach. I picked the closest games and you didn't like that. Now you want me to decide what games were close when Posey game into the game. Sorry, I'm done.

Because under your list, if the Pacers were in a 2pt game, put Posey in and then proceeded to lose by 10 it wouldn't fall into your net. Because the game was decided by more than 5 points, you would look past it. But yet Posey was put into the game when the game was close.

See what I'm saying?

I don't care so much about the END RESULT as opposed to the situation when Jim decided that Posey was the right choice over a traditional 4.

Really?
02-04-2011, 03:27 PM
This probably has been said but.

Not sure if this is all him but there needs to be something done about the turnovers, too many lazy and forced passes.

Seems like Paul could play a lil more at times but Dunleavy is getting it done though so not too much of a concern.

Don't like that he is using aj as a point, might be the only to say this but as a 2nd pg I would rather have Ford if we are trying to win games.

Like his demeanor kind of reminds me of a coaching Aaron Rodgers, lol

I like his confidence in his players, especially since I feel this is what the young guys need a coach to have confidence in them...

spazzxb
02-04-2011, 03:44 PM
There is nothing else i can do I guess,. I picked the most recent 17 games - you didn't like that approach. I picked the closest games and you didn't like that. Now you want me to decide what games were close when Posey game into the game. Sorry, I'm done.

Walking away is a good move. I seriously doubt you could get them to agree that 2+2=4.

Since86
02-04-2011, 03:47 PM
There needs to be more information, which is why I didn't want to go through it all.

Throw away games, like when the Pacers are completely out of the game in the 4th should be thrown out, regardless if he played or not.

The issue is that Posey closed out close games.

Yeah, you're right. I've changed my goalposts.

Wait, that was you.......

EDIT: Even take a look at what Sookie said.

That data is skewed though. He doesn't finish out/play heavy minutes in blow outs, he finishes out and plays heavy minutes with close games.

When you take that into consideration, him not playing a lot in the fourth is the exception, not the rule.

I don't care if UB is done. That's what I said from the beginning. I wasn't going to take the time to go through every game and look at the score in the 4th then look to see if Posey came in, etc.

That is WAY too much work to prove my stance, when everyone else knows how Jim used Posey except you, spazz.

I even quoted what UB said in another thread, about how Jim would have used Posey to close out the Cleveland game. UB can even admit that Jim used Posey to close out close games.....

But like I said, the Cleveland game wouldn't fall into UB's net, because the end score was more than 5pts.

I don't care what the end score was, I care about whether or not Posey came in and played significant minutes in the 4th quarter during close games.

Whether they ended close doesn't matter.