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View Full Version : If Vogel "sticks with/plays the young guys". What does that phrase mean to you



Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 11:58 AM
Over the past 24 hours I have read tons of comments like, if Vogel sticks with the young guys. If he plays the young guys. If he starts to play the young guys

I want to know specifically what those phrases mean to you. What does Vogel have to do to hit the mark in playing the young guys.

First, tell me who the young guys are and are not. Then tell me how many minutes you want each guy to play.

This is not in anyway a trick question. I would just like to know everyones opinion because I think it means very different things to different people. Go on the record

BPump33
01-31-2011, 12:02 PM
Not to derail the thread, but MG just said Vogel would be on 1070 around 11:20.

90'sNBARocked
01-31-2011, 12:03 PM
youngins: Ty, PG, McBob, AJ, and Lance

Ty=30 minutes or more per game
AJ= 10 minutes or more per game
PG= 30 minutes or more per game
McBob= 15 minutes or more per game
Lance = 10 minutes or more per game

I didnt include DC, because he is not treated like a young player. He has been given consistent minutes from day 1

Anthem
01-31-2011, 12:08 PM
Minutes will be fluid, I understand that. I'm not worried about per-minute totals, exactly.

But I'll be happy if Posey never again plays ahead of McRoberts or Tyler at PF. If TJ never plays ahead of AJ at PG. If Foster doesn't play ahead of Roy at C (I don't mind Foster playing ahead of Solo).

As far as the wing rotation, that's a bit dicier. It's no secret that I've been begging for the Pacers to move Dunleavy since he got here, so I'll cry no tears if Dunleavy drops out of the rotation. But I don't think you can totally justify that based on his play. I'd love it if George started at SG and Rush backed up both wing spots, but I won't be upset if that doesn't happen.

My best-case scenario is that we're able to leverage Dunleavy/TJ (and maybe Rush and Foster) for value at the trade deadline.

the jaddler
01-31-2011, 12:11 PM
I feel its not nessicarly about how many minutes each guy should or should not play. I think its about the combinations that work on the floor against differnt styles of play each opposing team has. I think we work on our combinations that work, and hey if a young guy is having an outstanding game let him play the whole game and contunie to work him in other games.

I am very interested to see how we adjust from this point forward!

Infinite MAN_force
01-31-2011, 12:13 PM
Minutes will be fluid, I understand that. I'm not worried about per-minute totals, exactly.

But I'll be happy if Posey never again plays ahead of McRoberts or Tyler at PF. If TJ never plays ahead of AJ at PG. If Foster doesn't play ahead of Roy at C (I don't mind Foster playing ahead of Solo).

As far as the wing rotation, that's a bit dicier. It's no secret that I've been begging for the Pacers to move Dunleavy since he got here, so I'll cry no tears if Dunleavy drops out of the rotation. But I don't think you can totally justify that based on his play. I'd love it if George started at SG and Rush backed up both wing spots, but I won't be upset if that doesn't happen.

My best-case scenario is that we're able to leverage Dunleavy/TJ (and maybe Rush and Foster) for value at the trade deadline.

How would you feel about trading Dun/Rush/1st for Iggy to thin out that wing rotation a bit? Your primary rotation becomes Granger/Igodaula/George with room for Lance to get some minutes as well.

If they are really talking trades I hope something like that is on the table.

BPump33
01-31-2011, 12:24 PM
Per Vogel: "Lance will be inactive tonight."

Speed
01-31-2011, 12:25 PM
Young guys to me are:

DC - He's your starter, he needs to play free and aggressive. I think he'll benefit more than anyone from Obie's departure. It think Vogel will give him near cart blanche to run the team and I think he'll thrive.

Paul George: he makes mistakes, but he also does positive things much more often. My deal with him is that he needs a steady diet of minutes to play through the mistakes.

Hansbrough and JMac: I'd comprise all 48 minutes of the PF position with those two. What they give you helps Roy. Both can guard other teams if they go small or even if they can't completely guard them, they can pound them in other ways to make up for it. I want a traditional PF in the game at all times.

Roy: Steady diet of minutes regardless of slump or match up. Maybe give him shorter spurts on the floor, if he's struggling.

Brandon: I'd take a harder line approach with his minutes, when he's disappearing, let him not play. However, give him a shot every night, to see which BRush you are getting. This could work to 5-6 mins if he's not the BRush. I think we've seen enough of the passiveness to make this adjustment.

Lance: I'd play him as a combo guard, but not every game. I'd play him with AJ or TJ who are neither pure point guards and allow him to be an offensive point guard on the pick and roll, but guard the other teams 2 guard, so he doesn't get torched by a speedy guy. I'd do this based on match up.

AJ - I think he needs time every game. You have to know he can back up DC going forward. Basically you have to know if is the answer there going forward.

You get PF minutes easily by not playing Posey at all and Danny at the PF. You get back court minutes by reducing Dunleavy to 20 mins a night and allow him to play off the bench, as I think he's best suited for and should have all along.

You're main minutes for youngster should be this.

Roy 24 - 30

DC 32

Paul George 26-30 (which Obie was doing at the very end)

Hansbrough/Jmac - 24/24 with slight variances on who's hot.

Brandon - 5 to 20

AJ - 10 to 20

Lance - 10 to 20, but only when the match ups allow.

Look, you just have to live with the bonehead stuff to get to the good stuff.

The very biggest problem for Vogel to me, is who closes and how they do it.

I really don't know the answer to this one. I'm not sure they have the answer on the bench.

If I had to say.

To close.

Collison
Dunleavy
Danny
Jeff
Tyler or Josh

I really don't want Dunleavy in that spot, I'd rather have George. I think it's good training for him for the future. I'm just not convinced he's ready to finish.

If you really want honesty, TJ is your best closer, as much as I don't want it to be true. You can't play DC and TJ together though and you need DC to develop into that guy. You're best play to end a game is TJ taking his guy off the dribble, it just is, I don't like it either.

It's a conundrum.

I think Solo and Posey are the odd men out. Solo has played well for him, it's just not in the cards for me.

Strummer
01-31-2011, 12:35 PM
Traditional PFs with Tyler and Josh splitting the 48 minutes. Josh getting some minutes at C behind Roy. Basically Roy, Tyler and Josh as a 3 man rotation up front. Scraps to Jeff.

Split the 96 wing minutes among Danny, Brandon, Mike and Paul. For some reason JOB didn't think 96 was divisible by 4. I'd give more minuted to Danny and less to Paul if everyone is healthy. But all 4 would play significant minutes.

Darren, TJ, and AJ all playing and splitting the 48 minutes at PG. Maybe 30 for Darren and 9 for the other two. That could change if AJ plays well.

Minutes for Lance as you can work him in. We need to see him in a game or two before we can consider giving him extended minutes.

I'm not wanting to see the young guys get X minutes. But I want them to get consistent minutes and a chance to prove that they deserve more.

You don't need to move Danny to PF and bench Josh just to find minutes for Paul. That's silly. No more small ball.

Speed
01-31-2011, 12:41 PM
I really think playing Lance with AJ could really be successful. Let AJ play 2 guard on offense. Let Lance play the Point. Switch on D. I know I said that above, but I really like that idea. (trying to figure out how to thank myself :) )

90'sNBARocked
01-31-2011, 12:43 PM
I really think playing Lance with AJ could really be successful. Let AJ play 2 guard on offense. Let Lance play the Point. Switch on D. I know I said that above, but I really like that idea. (trying to figure out how to thank myself :) )

I agree bro but I would do the opposite

AJ at the point, Lance at the two

McKeyFan
01-31-2011, 12:46 PM
I've enjoyed watching A.J. at the two. He can certainly create his own shot.

Speed
01-31-2011, 12:49 PM
I agree bro but I would do the opposite

AJ at the point, Lance at the two

Flip on offense/defense, though.

BillS
01-31-2011, 01:08 PM
Top me, the "young guys" are from Danny on down. That would be DG, DC, PG, Tyler, Roy, Josh, AJ, Brandon, Lance ... and, oddly, Solomon Jones.

Now, I'll accept that whole "... who are going to be part of our future" general wisdom and leave Solo out (though I think he is a serviceable bench big man and could easily be in the future in that role).

Playing Time to me means they see the floor for at least a minimal amount of time and consistently get time IF their play warrants it. I do NOT believe that you leave guys on the floor to make the same mistake over and over and over - they aren't going to get better from that. However, I also don't think you sit someone when they make the first mistake UNLESS it is a critical point in the game and you are putting someone clearly better back on the floor. Even the young guys need to learn that games are for winning, not for educational experiences alone.

What I'd like to see is a better job of pulling a guy when he is clearly locked into mistakes or playing badly/wrongly, then putting him back in later on to see if he has cleared it up.

Sookie
01-31-2011, 01:08 PM
I really think playing Lance with AJ could really be successful. Let AJ play 2 guard on offense. Let Lance play the Point. Switch on D. I know I said that above, but I really like that idea. (trying to figure out how to thank myself :) )

I think if we're going to try and play Lance at the point, you have to play him with AJ. Lance is going to need the ball in his hands, and AJ's the only point that can be effective without it.

Price actually did a lot of that as a senior at Uconn. Kemba needed the ball in his hands, so AJ ran the team without it. (Now, it's actually Kemba doing that, because Shabazz Napier needs the ball in his hands..so Kemba is playing off the ball.)

When it becomes obvious to the coaching staff that Lance at the point doesn't work, they can easily just switch places. But Lance will still be able to be ball dominant, because AJ doesn't need it.

Anthem
01-31-2011, 02:17 PM
How would you feel about trading Dun/Rush/1st for Iggy to thin out that wing rotation a bit? Your primary rotation becomes Granger/Igodaula/George with room for Lance to get some minutes as well.

If they are really talking trades I hope something like that is on the table.
I think that's overpaying for Iggy.

Take out the 1st and I'm content with it.

Sookie
01-31-2011, 02:20 PM
I think that's overpaying for Iggy.

Take out the 1st and I'm content with it.

Would you trade Granger for Dun/Rush? Because I think Iggy is just as good as Granger.

The question is whether we need that #1 for a PF or not. But I think Dun/Rush and a #1 is very fair for Iggy.

Anthem
01-31-2011, 02:36 PM
Would you trade Granger for Dun/Rush? Because I think Iggy is just as good as Granger.

The question is whether we need that #1 for a PF or not. But I think Dun/Rush and a #1 is very fair for Iggy.
He's not as good. Close, but not as good.

But the club situations are totally different. If Philly decides to sell, I doubt the market price is much more than that. Who's going to give more than an expiring and a young prospect?

Infinite MAN_force
01-31-2011, 02:43 PM
He's not as good. Close, but not as good.

But the club situations are totally different. If Philly decides to sell, I doubt the market price is much more than that. Who's going to give more than an expiring and a young prospect?

I think in a vacuum i could see how that would be considered overpaying for Iggy, but there are some specific circumstances. One, Rush is a young prospect but he isn't really thought to have big upside, at this point he is close to what he is going to be... most likely a 3 point specialist/defensive specialist and thats about it. Quality role player, but not a true impact player.

Also, this draft is weak and everyone knows it. I don't think a pick in this draft is worth as much as it might be in other drafts. Just Dun/Rush seems like quite the low ball offer given the circumstances.

PacerPenguins
01-31-2011, 05:32 PM
i hope he lets DC play DC basketball

pacer4ever
01-31-2011, 06:04 PM
Would you trade Granger for Dun/Rush? Because I think Iggy is just as good as Granger.

The question is whether we need that #1 for a PF or not. But I think Dun/Rush and a #1 is very fair for Iggy.

we need interior players so we can play the game the right way not the JOB way.

Pacersalltheway10
01-31-2011, 06:06 PM
Do the NO offence that DC thrived in last year. they didn't win a lot of games because they didn't have the talent and the type of players that we have now.

On a side note, I would love to trade b. rush or D. jones for Marcus Thornton.

BRushWithDeath
01-31-2011, 06:35 PM
I know the plan is to start McRoberts and give Hansbrough all the backup minutes. That right there is enough to make me happy.

PacerDude
01-31-2011, 06:36 PM
Ty=30 minutes or more per game
AJ= 10 minutes or more per game
PG= 30 minutes or more per game
McBob= 15 minutes or more per game
Lance = 10 minutes or more per gamePretty much my thoughts ...... except maybe PG until he's more comfortable out there. We still have to try to win.

I guess also that Hibbert, and Rush are 'young', so I'd give Rush time to either prove himself or not and I'd force feed Roy 30+ a night. If for nothing else than to let him know that he's the man in the middle and we're not going to deviate from that.

I think Posey, TJ and Solo should reside on the INACTIVE list until further notice.

Trophy
01-31-2011, 06:40 PM
I think the minutes are going to revolve around the young, core guys.

DC, Paul, Danny, Tyler/Josh, and Roy will be the center of getting the majority of the minutes with AJ, Brandon, Mike, and Jeff seeing backup minutes lower than the starters.

Which is pretty much what we've been going with all along.

I just feel like his rotations are going to be consistent.

beast23
02-01-2011, 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Sookie http://www.pacersdigest.com/images/buttons/PDbuttons//viewpost.gif (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1151587#post1151587)
Would you trade Granger for Dun/Rush? Because I think Iggy is just as good as Granger.

The question is whether we need that #1 for a PF or not. But I think Dun/Rush and a #1 is very fair for Iggy.



He's not as good. Close, but not as good.

But the club situations are totally different. If Philly decides to sell, I doubt the market price is much more than that. Who's going to give more than an expiring and a young prospect?

I think just as important as comparing their skills as players, you must also compare their value to the team and its roster. I believe having Granger to man the SF is far, far more important to the Pacers than having Igoudala man the SG. Why? Because we have players like George who are already capable of manning the SG slot and that still have upside.

For that reason, I think Igoudala is a nice to have, even a very nice to have player because of his defensive abilities, but only on our terms. I would not sacrifice a 1st round pick for him... at least not without resolving the PF need first.

BringJackBack
02-01-2011, 11:34 AM
I think just as important as comparing their skills as players, you must also compare their value to the team and its roster. I believe having Granger to man the SF is far, far more important to the Pacers than having Igoudala man the SG. Why? Because we have players like George who are already capable of manning the SG slot and that still have upside.

For that reason, I think Igoudala is a nice to have, even a very nice to have player because of his defensive abilities, but only on our terms. I would not sacrifice a 1st round pick for him... at least not without resolving the PF need first.

I wish that I could thank this 179798 times. My stance on Iggy has changed, and that first should probably be used on a PF.. Not saying that I wouldn't trade Dun/Rush/Lance for Iggy though at all even at the risk of taking on all of that salary.

beast23
02-01-2011, 11:37 AM
Young guys to me are...
Brandon: I'd take a harder line approach with his minutes, when he's disappearing, let him not play. However, give him a shot every night, to see which BRush you are getting. This could work to 5-6 mins if he's not the BRush. I think we've seen enough of the passiveness to make this adjustment.

...You're main minutes for youngster should be this.

Roy 24 - 30

DC 32

Paul George 26-30 (which Obie was doing at the very end)

Hansbrough/Jmac - 24/24 with slight variances on who's hot.

Brandon - 5 to 20

AJ - 10 to 20

Lance - 10 to 20, but only when the match ups allow.

Look, you just have to live with the bonehead stuff to get to the good stuff.

The very biggest problem for Vogel to me, is who closes and how they do it.

I really don't know the answer to this one. I'm not sure they have the answer on the bench.

If I had to say.

To close.

Collison
Dunleavy
Danny
Jeff
Tyler or Josh

I really don't want Dunleavy in that spot, I'd rather have George. I think it's good training for him for the future. I'm just not convinced he's ready to finish.

If you really want honesty, TJ is your best closer, as much as I don't want it to be true. You can't play DC and TJ together though and you need DC to develop into that guy. You're best play to end a game is TJ taking his guy off the dribble, it just is, I don't like it either.

It's a conundrum.

I think Solo and Posey are the odd men out. Solo has played well for him, it's just not in the cards for me.

I don't think I've read a post by anyone that so closely aligns with my thoughts. I'm also not certain how I feel about the Dunleavy - George quandry; I like both players a lot.

As for Brandon, I have the following suggestion. Treat him like a football player. Instead of sending him into the tunnel to ride a stationary bike to prepare him for his insertion into the game, send him into the tunnel to meet up with Larry Bird, whereupon he will be summarily b-i-t-c-h slapped to acclimate him to the aggression that we need to see in his time on the court.