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View Full Version : What do we expect of Vogel?



johndozark
01-31-2011, 02:54 AM
Here is my list:

1. Positive, encouraging attitude with clear, fair expectations.
2. Good player relations.
3. Good media relations; not criticizing players in public.
4. Consistent rotations that make day-in, day-out sense.
5. Being directly and sympathetically honest with players who must be inactive or not part of the regular rotation.
6. Developing young players.
7. Having clear short-term and long-term goals.
8. Short-term goals include improving player morale and their commitment to playing hard.
9. Long-term goals include gradually evolving toward offensive and defensive schemes that fit the available talent.

What is your list?

Hoop
01-31-2011, 03:04 AM
Here is my list:

1. Positive, encouraging attitude with clear, fair expectations.
2. Good player relations.
3. Good media relations; not criticizing players in public.
4. Consistent rotations that make day-in, day-out sense.
5. Being directly and sympathetically honest with players who must be inactive or not part of the regular rotation.
6. Developing young players.
7. Having clear short-term and long-term goals.
8. Short-term goals include improving player morale and their commitment to playing hard.
9. Long-term goals include gradually evolving toward offensive and defensive schemes that fit the available talent.

What is your list?
That's a great list. Not much to add to it.

I just want to see consistent rotations, something that has not happened in 3 and half seasons.

No Posey, No TJ, and a little less Dunleavy, with maybe a few minutes here and there for Lance, would make me very happy.

Psyren
01-31-2011, 03:16 AM
I think you hit it right on the nose.

For me, I just want to see him be positive with the players.

He's new at this. Granted he's a long time assistant, but this is his first time in command. I expect there to be flaws, but I'm completely open to him.

It's his team. I'm interested to see how he runs it.

And also, better rotations. Less Posey. More of Josh/Tyler.

MaHa3000
01-31-2011, 03:20 AM
Not much. He is a good guy in a tough position.

I get the feeling that he is just here to promote some of the younger talent to entice a new coach to see promise in the team that we can put on the floor. At the same time he can get some experience as a head coach. Which will most likely pay dividends for him in the future.

I do not see him on our staff next year.

That being said, I do believe that he will have a good run in the second half of the season for us due to the team, as a whole, getting behind him. He seems more "ra ra" then JOB, and I think that will inspire young as well as veteren on this team.

Since86
01-31-2011, 03:34 AM
We don't know anything about the guy, so it's pretty hard to make a list. It's impossible to get an accurate read on him from a 5min speech, and a couple of questions.

If he agrees with Jim on how players should be used, and the system Jim used, he will get a bad rap quickly.

If he makes changes, we will find out if they work better or not.

I'm strapped in, and ready for the ride!

PacersFan1991
01-31-2011, 04:18 AM
Develop our young guys, have a positive influence on the locker room and win games, especially ones that we should.

cgg
01-31-2011, 06:19 AM
lollipops and rainbows

bellisimo
01-31-2011, 07:04 AM
i just want a bit of a consistency - all this line-up changes every second game due to matching up with the opposition really bothers me - in the playoffs yea its a valid strategy - in the regular season it shouldn't happen - the team needs to gel and be able to learn their roles/etc

31andonly
01-31-2011, 07:27 AM
Making the Playoffs?

Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 10:17 AM
I really hope he runs this play that I saw Saturday night

in fact I really liked a new play that I do not recall seeing before tonight.
They run a pick and roll with point guard and center just as a misdirection on one side of the free throw line while on the other side granger gets a pick from the power forward and our center also comes over to provide a double staggered pick for granger and Collison passes the ball to DG and he gets a wide open free throw line jumper - 3 easy shots.
Really nice play

cinotimz
01-31-2011, 10:27 AM
We don't know anything about the guy, so it's pretty hard to make a list. It's impossible to get an accurate read on him from a 5min speech, and a couple of questions.

If he agrees with Jim on how players should be used, and the system Jim used, he will get a bad rap quickly.

If he makes changes, we will find out if they work better or not.

I'm strapped in, and ready for the ride!

This was change for changes sake, not because they saw a limited opportunity to get a quality guy...no way Vogel could ever be considered as such.

So therefore there will definitely be change. He might have tried to downplay it in the PC, but you just know a young, anxious energetic coach isnt going to come in and do the same thing that got the guy before him fired.

No way.

Almost every decision he will be considering what he thinks Bird would want him to do...not that I dont think JOB wasnt doing that as well....Its just that Vogel will most often times do what he thinks Bird would want him to do, while Im convinced JOB was purposefully doing exactly the opposite of what he thought Bird would prefer.

Kegboy
01-31-2011, 10:35 AM
lollipops and rainbows

Yes, but let's not expect double rainbows. The kid's in a hard enough position as it is, let's not put any undue pressure on him.

dohman
01-31-2011, 10:40 AM
honestly... from a 38 year old rookie coach.

losing.....

Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 10:40 AM
I think realistically we should hope and expect for a better attitude from the players. That is why the change was made to change the atmosphere around the team.

Slick Pinkham
01-31-2011, 10:53 AM
I just remembered my German classes from when I was in school, and "Vogel" is German for "Bird"

http://www.vocabulix.com/translation/german/bird.html

grace
01-31-2011, 10:57 AM
I expect him to do just enough to be retained as head coach. Then in 2 or 3 years when he's done nothing people are going to :censored: that the Pacers didn't go hire a proven coach. (In other words it will be like when IU hired Bill Lynch.)

pacergod2
01-31-2011, 11:11 AM
The one thing I really want from him is to inspire the players to play hard every night. I think our team will rally around the guy and show the kind of effort we saw early in the season. The players quit on JOB.

I also would like to see him adjust the playcalling a touch. I thought JOB did a good job with making a lot of the adjustments he made, he just made so many bad adjustments to go with them. I think we will see a more balanced lineup. Assistant coaches always have in the back of their mind what they would make the rotations, what plays they would run, and what players strengths and weaknesses are. I think he will come in and quickly fix the rotations and play calls. He mentioned something in his interview about player strengths and weaknesses and I couldn't have been happier for that to be one of the first things he addressed. I don't expect him to be that effective managing game situations though, at least initially.

I actually think this is great timing, because it gets our guys jazzed up right before an easier stretch of games. At this point, if we win these games it gets us rolling in the right direction and changes the team's attitude. If we lose these games, then it sets the direction of major change this off-season. I really like the timing. You don't want to bring in such a young coach and have two of his first three games be Orlando and Chicago. That sets the tone with a negative connotation.

Marlin
01-31-2011, 11:29 AM
Gradually, but surely, shifting away from the concept that a "stretch 4" must be a staple in our offense.

Using it here and there? Sure. But not have the offense revolve around it.

MagicRat
01-31-2011, 11:58 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaHXk2Kyi0w&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Anthem
01-31-2011, 12:10 PM
I'd like to see more player development. I'd like to see a player do something in March and say "Wow, they couldn't do that in November."

I'd also love it if he could break through to Rush in terms of aggressive offense, but I don't know if that's a player issue or a coach issue.

Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 12:24 PM
Gradually, but surely, shifting away from the concept that a "stretch 4" must be a staple in our offense.

Using it here and there? Sure. But not have the offense revolve around it.

I am curious what % of the time do you think the pacers played this season with a stretch four on the court. Pretty easy to figure out how many minutes did Posey play and how many minutes did Granger play at the 4. Posye has averages 18.2 minutes per game and Granger probably hasn't averages more than a minute or two at the fourt.

So I would say around 20 minutes per game which is around 42% of the time. So I hardly think the whole offense revolves around it this year

BillS
01-31-2011, 01:12 PM
If I just see consistency and adjustments based on how a player is ACTUALLY doing, rather than how a player is EXPECTED to be doing, I'll be happy.

Sticking point for him is if DG continues to play poorly more often than not. Does Vogel have the clout as an interim coach to bench the guy who is arguably the face of the franchise?

naptownmenace
01-31-2011, 01:15 PM
Not much. He is a good guy in a tough position.

I get the feeling that he is just here to promote some of the younger talent to entice a new coach to see promise in the team that we can put on the floor. At the same time he can get some experience as a head coach. Which will most likely pay dividends for him in the future.

I do not see him on our staff next year.

That being said, I do believe that he will have a good run in the second half of the season for us due to the team, as a whole, getting behind him. He seems more "ra ra" then JOB, and I think that will inspire young as well as veteren on this team.

Good post! You summed up my exact feelings and saved me the time of typing them. Thanks.

Phree Refill
01-31-2011, 01:29 PM
I'm definitely excited to see what vogel brings to the table. Watching multiple interviews of him in the last 20 hours he seems to be very well spoken and has a firm grasp on what he's just gotten into. He reminds me in more ways than one of Brad Stevens. He's the youngest coach in the league and so I expect mistakes to be made. At the same time I see the fact that this is his first stint as a head coach working to his advantage. The best way I can explain what I mean there is to relate the situation to poker. Many professional poker players refuse to play with newbies because the new guys are so unaware of the monumental odds stacked against their crappy hands when they play. Its this uninformed blindness that allows the new guys to make otherwise unintelligent plays that end up taking down the pros because the pros aren't accustomed to playing against such unconventional strategy. It is for that reason I believe Vogel may in fact have an advantage. I believe you can point to Lawrence Frank's situation in new jersey a few years ago as valid evidence of the newbie theory.

Sookie
01-31-2011, 01:42 PM
Common sense substitutions and development of the young guys.

DaveP63
01-31-2011, 02:10 PM
To do the right thing to the best of his ability...

Unclebuck
01-31-2011, 02:32 PM
If I just see consistency and adjustments based on how a player is ACTUALLY doing, rather than how a player is EXPECTED to be doing, I'll be happy.

Sticking point for him is if DG continues to play poorly more often than not. Does Vogel have the clout as an interim coach to bench the guy who is arguably the face of the franchise?

I'm curious about your comments. DG playing poorly is still probably our best player or at the very least he might be playing a poor game but he is more capable than anyone else of having a great quarter to turn things around, for example. I just don't know how that can work in in practice, wouldn't the result be erractic substitution patterns.

Marlin
01-31-2011, 11:10 PM
I am curious what % of the time do you think the pacers played this season with a stretch four on the court. Pretty easy to figure out how many minutes did Posey play and how many minutes did Granger play at the 4. Posye has averages 18.2 minutes per game and Granger probably hasn't averages more than a minute or two at the fourt.

So I would say around 20 minutes per game which is around 42% of the time. So I hardly think the whole offense revolves around it this year

Assuming Granger's minutes at the 4 are more than a pair (IMO), it gets close to 50% of the time with a stretch 4. If that's not being a staple in our offense, than I don't know what it is. I'd like to see a way lower percentage, not one trip down the court every other.

"Revolving around it" was probably a poor choice of words on my part tho, I agree on that.

johndozark
02-01-2011, 12:02 PM
So far, so good. Vogel seems on track to meet my expectations and add a few more that I had not thought of, like how he uses his assistants.

No, he won't turn this team into winning the finals by the end of the year. ;)

Talent-wise, I think that this team is somewhere in the 9-15 range out of the thirty teams.

But I believe that Vogel will have them performing so that they are competitive in 90% of their games and so that, once they get a few things worked out, they win something like 60% of their remaining games.

BillS
02-01-2011, 12:08 PM
I'm curious about your comments. DG playing poorly is still probably our best player or at the very least he might be playing a poor game but he is more capable than anyone else of having a great quarter to turn things around, for example. I just don't know how that can work in in practice, wouldn't the result be erractic substitution patterns.

I don't know exactly - if I did, I'd be coaching instead of commenting :lol:

My thought is that you make his time shorter when he is having problems due to errors like bad shot selection or a laxity on defense. If he is missing open shots or working hard on D but getting burned due to flaws in other parts of the defense, then maybe he can work through it.

I'd have to say, though, that we don't have a very good idea of who on this team is capable of self-correcting because we didn't get a consistent feel to how players were treated. What I'm hoping is that Vogel looks at how a player is performing in the game and makes an informed decision on whether it is likely to correct rather than assuming the player will play to some pre-determined standard even if it isn't working. I think the use of Posey (and Murphy) for long periods when the expected role on the court isn't being fulfilled (particularly missing the long ball) during the Ancien Regime is the example of what I DON'T want to see.