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View Full Version : New lightning rod when we still lose?



Major Cold
01-30-2011, 04:49 PM
It was Rick. Then it was Murphy-Dunleavy-JOB. Then it was solely JOB's to handle.

So will it be Dun or Danny?

http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/01428/lightening_pics/wr-lightening.jpg

Aw Heck
01-30-2011, 04:52 PM
If the players still play like they don't give a damn, then they will receive the blame. And Bird for assembling the team that doesn't give a damn.

Look, there's a lot of blame to go around. No, Jim wasn't given a roster of All-Stars to coach. But let's not pretend like some of that blame he received wasn't warranted. Same for Murphy, Dunleavy, and yes, even Rick.

Hicks
01-30-2011, 04:53 PM
I expect the guns to turn on Danny.

Pacersalltheway10
01-30-2011, 04:53 PM
JOB deserved it. the only reason JOB got most of the blame was because he deserved it. There was no "lightening rod".

Chuck Chillout
01-30-2011, 04:56 PM
I won't be blaming anyone- it's a young team and there will be growing pains, just like with George last night. Though Hicks is probably right about Danny....

flox
01-30-2011, 04:58 PM
Depending on who is playing, either some of the vets (Posey comes to mind), or Danny if he continues to regress.

Sookie
01-30-2011, 05:01 PM
Look

No one, and I mean no one, thought that the only reason the Pacesr lost was because of Jim O'brien.

We all could have looked at our team last night and realized that when their best player is Derrick Rose, and ours (at the moment) was Josh McRoberts, we were going to have a problem.

The issue was that Jim always hindered the team. This is a team that couldn't afford to be hindered, and Jim would make poor decision after poor decision. Then proceed to make those same mistakes, and blame the younger players on the team for the losses.

Most of us also realize that the wins today aren't as important as the wins in our future. And that seeing the younger guys play, learn and compete, would be just as much fun as watching a championship level team. (Well, almost..and I'm being sincere here) But Jim wouldn't do that. He'd play Ford over Price, and even over Collison in closing minutes. He'd play Posey over Josh or Tyler (or both). He'd play Foster over Hibbert, Dun over George..even though those two aren't bad, Hibbert needs to be getting through his problems and George needs to be losing. And all of this just to be losing anyway.

Essentially, I don't think this team is possibly anything more than a 45 wing team with everything going RIGHT. Jim did just about everything wrong. And that was what was frustrating.

spazzxb
01-30-2011, 05:03 PM
I expect the guns to turn on Danny.

yeah he is kinda old. jk

spazzxb
01-30-2011, 05:06 PM
But you did aurgue when anyone wanted blame anything else.
Look

No one, and I mean no one, thought that the only reason the Pacesr lost was because of Jim O'brien.

We all could have looked at our team last night and realized that when their best player is Derrick Rose, and ours (at the moment) was Josh McRoberts, we were going to have a problem.

The issue was that Jim always hindered the team. This is a team that couldn't afford to be hindered, and Jim would make poor decision after poor decision. Then proceed to make those same mistakes, and blame the younger players on the team for the losses.

Most of us also realize that the wins today aren't as important as the wins in our future. And that seeing the younger guys play, learn and compete, would be just as much fun as watching a championship level team. (Well, almost..and I'm being sincere here) But Jim wouldn't do that. He'd play Ford over Price, and even over Collison in closing minutes. He'd play Posey over Josh or Tyler (or both). He'd play Foster over Hibbert, Dun over George..even though those two aren't bad, Hibbert needs to be getting through his problems and George needs to be losing. And all of this just to be losing anyway.

Essentially, I don't think this team is possibly anything more than a 45 wing team with everything going RIGHT. Jim did just about everything wrong. And that was what was frustrating.

Sandman21
01-30-2011, 05:11 PM
Nobody - The cloud is gone... At this point, I could care less if we make the playoffs if it means the young guys get to play more and more.....

Merz
01-30-2011, 05:16 PM
JOB was blamed just for the team losing (most the people here do realize they are not very talented). Most disliked JOB's rotations, system, and they way he handled the young players. It is not as black/white, win/loss as you think.

Why is it so hard for some to understand that?

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2011, 05:16 PM
What blame? The blame on JOB was NOT for losing. I mean maybe by you or someone totally unreasonable.

The blame on JOB was that we needed to spend the last 3 years DEVELOPING PLAYERS while things were too jammed up to go anywhere anyway, so that NOW we'd be seeing some return on (time) investment. Starting to work with Josh this year, not even starting to work with AJ much at all, struggling to work with George or Tyler this year, complaining about Roy and Rush regardless of their output....that's why JOB was a bad coach.

He wasn't going to win, and any sane fan knew that. Rick Carlisle has only had 1 losing stint, and it was the half season after the GSW trade. Prior to that the team was still hovering around .500 despite Tins, JO and the slow start for Jackson (I was recently run over by a car).

So how the F was JOB going to do any better? He wasn't. So what.

So you dig in, bite the bullet on teaching kids how to play NBA ball and grind your way out of contract hell.

OR you just throw everything and the kitchen sink at 5 more wins, caution and reason be damned, and still get nowhere. That's why JOB took crap. This season is a bust, but they get a stretch of easier games for them to work through and maybe get a couple of cheap wins and some momentum as a young group.

A lot of fans have been waiting just to see the kids try and see if they can improve.



BTW - that AIN'T TANKING. It fails more than it works and the last 3 years there has been plenty of talent to be had farther down than the top 10 - see Paul George, Roy Hibbert, Danny Granger, Brandon Rush or a myriad of guys on other teams. Just the 2nd rounders alone making impacts for various teams is a long list.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2011, 05:22 PM
I expect the guns to turn on Danny.
Danny has not been playing a smart game lately, no doubt. But we've seen Danny have great passion in the past (teeth anyone) and we know he worked hard to improve his game.

IMO Danny is frustrated and it's affecting his game. Some of that is directed toward the younger players and their mistakes, but I suspect that a lot of it was due to being tired of going in the same old direction.

I'm not saying Danny leaps up all cheery and turns it around, but I can see some stress and disgust fading away over the next few weeks. At first it might be disarray, but if Bird shows the players there is still leadership and that this is a start of a new direction I think we will see spirits rise.

Mackey_Rose
01-30-2011, 05:27 PM
It's never been about the wins or losses, and it won't be with Vogel.

It's about how they've won and lost.

spazzxb
01-30-2011, 05:32 PM
Heres the thing. I assumed this was JOB's last season before it ever began. I don't care about JOB, he was irrelevant. I care about everything else. I just hope, now that he is gone, that we can get to talking about the future of this team in the near future .

Dr. Awesome
01-30-2011, 05:39 PM
I don't think it was ever about losing, at least for me it wasn't. It was the way we were losing. A lot of that fell directly on Jim O'Brien's head.

I have never been the one to point the finger at people. I never had a problem with Isiah, I loved Rick Carlisle, and so on. Jim O'Brien was the first time I've ever been like "What in the world is this guy doing?"

Losing is going to happen, especially as a young team. However, when we are throwing away good opportunities to get wins, thats when I have a problem, and thats what Jim O'Brien was doing.

Mackey_Rose
01-30-2011, 05:39 PM
Heres the thing. I assumed this was JOB's last season before it ever began. I don't care about JOB, he was irrelevant. I care about everything else. I just hope, now that he is gone, that we can get to talking about the future of this team in the near future .

As long as he was in charge of everything that went on, out on the court, he wasn't even close to irrelevant. He did everything he could to make himself the most relevant member of the franchise.

Since86
01-30-2011, 05:45 PM
And spazz, sookie didnt argue when just anything else was presented. She, and we, argued against whatever JIM was doing.

Anything different would have been better. But then again, we were "attacking" Posey instead of disagreeing with how Jim used him.....

Unclebuck
01-30-2011, 07:14 PM
I cannot wait to see. I am thoroughly facinated.

vnzla81
01-30-2011, 07:16 PM
I cannot wait to see. I am thoroughly facinated.

Is looking to me like you are the new darksider, go take your negativity to another place ............... :-p

spazzxb
01-30-2011, 07:30 PM
I was replying to one of the "no one actually believes what there saying" type references like she has made before. I sent that her way for getting upset that people were being to hard on Roy the other day. I even found the post I had in mind.



No, it's not completely on Roy.

We built the offense around Roy. Teams adjusted, and the Pacers never adjusted to the adjustment. We just let Roy fail.

Coaches even have to adjust for the best players in the world. And we didn't do anything to help Roy out. (other than make Josh shoot threes and play Posey more..)

Roy's capable of being a great center for us. He's not capable of being the best player on the team, having the offense revolve around him, while all of the defense is also revolving around him..and still succeeding, without any help.

This isn't all on Roy. And it's a darn shame people feel that way.

Because, its a darm shame that people want to talk about Roys issues.

Sookie
01-30-2011, 07:42 PM
I was replying to one of the "no one actually believes what there saying" type references like she has made before. I sent that her way for getting upset that people were being to hard on Roy the other day. I even found the post I had in mind.




Because, its a darm shame that people want to talk about Roys issues.

That's not what I was saying.

I was saying it's a shame that people think Roy's problems were 100% Roy's fault. They weren't/aren't. And I explained why. And for the record, Larry agrees with me, he said as much today.

That doesn't mean, that it isn't partially on Roy. But even just basketball wise (forget mentality) JOB didn't help Roy adjust to the defense teams were now playing on Roy. That's not Roy's fault, he needed help.

But in that thread, I was responding to someone saying that Roy being benched was 100% Roy's fault. It wasn't.

BillS
01-30-2011, 07:59 PM
I guarantee that there will be complaining if things don't change the way people want.

If the young guys make the same mistakes over and over again, are left in the games, and still make the mistakes - there will be people complaining that they aren't learning anything so they should put people out there who don't make mistakes (who that is will be determined by whoever isn't being played).

If the young guys make the same mistakes over and over but are pulled so they can get instructed on what to do, there will be people complaining that they aren't being allowed to "play through" their mistakes.

If Vogel sticks to a rotation even if players don't do well for 2 or more games in a row, there will be people complaining that he isn't evaluating players properly and giving the right players enough time.

If Vogel adjusts rotations based on player performance (or any other reason) there will be people complaining that he isn't sticking with a standard rotation, so the players are confused and don't know what they are supposed to do.

Look, there is no 100% certain way to play the game and there is no 100% certain way to coach the game. In many ways, complaints about players and coaches are not so much about them doing something "wrong", they are about that player or coach not doing things <i>the way the complainer wants to see them done</i> - which itself isn't very likely to be a 100% guaranteed improvement.

So, there will still be folks screaming about something. It is part of the game.

I'm just hoping it will be fewer knee-jerk sound bites and more questioning and discussing.

Sookie
01-30-2011, 08:05 PM
I guarantee that there will be complaining if things don't change the way people want.

If the young guys make the same mistakes over and over again, are left in the games, and still make the mistakes - there will be people complaining that they aren't learning anything so they should put people out there who don't make mistakes (who that is will be determined by whoever isn't being played).

If the young guys make the same mistakes over and over but are pulled so they can get instructed on what to do, there will be people complaining that they aren't being allowed to "play through" their mistakes.

If Vogel sticks to a rotation even if players don't do well for 2 or more games in a row, there will be people complaining that he isn't evaluating players properly and giving the right players enough time.

If Vogel adjusts rotations based on player performance (or any other reason) there will be people complaining that he isn't sticking with a standard rotation, so the players are confused and don't know what they are supposed to do.

Look, there is no 100% certain way to play the game and there is no 100% certain way to coach the game. In many ways, complaints about players and coaches are not so much about them doing something "wrong", they are about that player or coach not doing things <i>the way the complainer wants to see them done</i> - which itself isn't very likely to be a 100% guaranteed improvement.

So, there will still be folks screaming about something. It is part of the game.

I'm just hoping it will be fewer knee-jerk sound bites and more questioning and discussing.

I would hope you'd give people more credit than that.

O'brien wasn't a mediocre coach. He was a bad one. A really really bad one. And people responded to that. People got annoyed by that. And they should have.

spazzxb
01-30-2011, 08:07 PM
That's not what I was saying.

I was saying it's a shame that people think Roy's problems were 100% Roy's fault. They weren't/aren't. And I explained why. And for the record, Larry agrees with me, he said as much today.

That doesn't mean, that it isn't partially on Roy. But even just basketball wise (forget mentality) JOB didn't help Roy adjust to the defense teams were now playing on Roy. That's not Roy's fault, he needed help.

But in that thread, I was responding to someone saying that Roy being benched was 100% Roy's fault. It wasn't.

I guess I missed that you were only arguing with one guy specifically about the 100% comment. :sorry:

ilive4sports
01-30-2011, 08:12 PM
It's funny to read some people already predicting the actions of others. We have guys predicting how the players will play, who Vogel will play, how Vogel will coach, how the fans will react if x,y, or z happen.

Look, JOB was not helping this team, we clearly needed a change. We have one, lets see what happens before we judge everyone.

spazzxb
01-30-2011, 08:15 PM
And spazz, sookie didnt argue when just anything else was presented. She, and we, argued against whatever JIM was doing.

Anything different would have been better. But then again, we were "attacking" Posey instead of disagreeing with how Jim used him.....

That doesn't hold water when people bashed Posey in game threads for games in which he did not play. Different people behaved differently but people did bash posey without referencing his utilization and they complained about utilization when they didn't realize he hadn't even played. People complained anytime they saw Posey, regardless of what actually happened when he played.
They "whatever you want to call them" wanted a new Murphy to bash and they chose one.

BlueNGold
01-30-2011, 08:15 PM
The only thing we expect is something reasonable. Jim was not reasonable with the combination of his style, rotations and reckless statements to the press...hence the lightening rod label which fits. While there will be complaining about something else, there are rational reasons to complain vehemently at times.

Most here, including the Pacers front office, thought there was a solid reason to complain vehemently...because otherwise Jim would have coached out his contract. This was not a decision the Pacers made easily. There was a very good reason to fire the man...whether you want to call him a lightening rod or not.

BTW, I don't think there is another lightening rod issue on this team except Lance. The rest of the players, even Rush and his weed issue, are not going to raise blood pressure nearly as much.

Edit: Let me correct one thing. If Vogel gives more than garbage minutes to Posey or Solo he will take some heat. Not as much as Jim for various reasons...but he will take heat for that. So, if we are looking for a lightening rod, I suspect it's that. ...or maybe if Granger is stinking terribly for another few weeks...there may be cries to trade him...particularly if other Pacer players are making good showings.

McKeyFan
01-30-2011, 09:48 PM
I would hope you'd give people more credit than that.

O'brien wasn't a mediocre coach. He was a bad one. A really really bad one. And people responded to that. People got annoyed by that. And they should have.
Jim lacked common sense dealing with people and rotations. It's very improbable that Vogel will have similar blind spots.

Therefore, I just don't think we'll see the same anger, even if we lose a bunch of games.

Trophy
01-30-2011, 09:50 PM
I think it'll just come down to who isn't playing well or if we lose it'll just be a team effort.

pwee31
01-30-2011, 09:53 PM
On the bright side, we have 2 really winnable games coming up. If the team can get some momentum under the new coach, with some new energy, we can definitely make a playoff push.

We're only 2 games back right now, so at least this move was made while in striking distance

BobbyMac
01-30-2011, 09:56 PM
Look

No one, and I mean no one, thought that the only reason the Pacesr lost was because of Jim O'brien.

We all could have looked at our team last night and realized that when their best player is Derrick Rose, and ours (at the moment) was Josh McRoberts, we were going to have a problem.

The issue was that Jim always hindered the team. This is a team that couldn't afford to be hindered, and Jim would make poor decision after poor decision. Then proceed to make those same mistakes, and blame the younger players on the team for the losses.

Most of us also realize that the wins today aren't as important as the wins in our future. And that seeing the younger guys play, learn and compete, would be just as much fun as watching a championship level team. (Well, almost..and I'm being sincere here) But Jim wouldn't do that. He'd play Ford over Price, and even over Collison in closing minutes. He'd play Posey over Josh or Tyler (or both). He'd play Foster over Hibbert, Dun over George..even though those two aren't bad, Hibbert needs to be getting through his problems and George needs to be losing. And all of this just to be losing anyway.

Essentially, I don't think this team is possibly anything more than a 45 wing team with everything going RIGHT. Jim did just about everything wrong. And that was what was frustrating.

I disagree, most of the posts on this form blamed JOB for losses and suggested that when we won it was in spite of JOB. I really hope the attitude here improves now.

cdash
01-30-2011, 10:14 PM
If Posey plays, then he will get it. If not, Dunleavy is the next safest bet. Danny is next down the list. Basically, any veteran on our roster is eligible for this.

Since86
01-30-2011, 10:53 PM
That doesn't hold water when people bashed Posey in game threads for games in which he did not play. Different people behaved differently but people did bash posey without referencing his utilization and they complained about utilization when they didn't realize he hadn't even played. People complained anytime they saw Posey, regardless of what actually happened when he played.
They "whatever you want to call them" wanted a new Murphy to bash and they chose one.


They didn't "bash" Posey when he's mentioned in games he got DNP-CD. They were saying "see JIM, this is the results when you don't play him....."

Their pointing out the results to Jim, who routinely ignores the facts when they don't fit his view of how he should have coached.

None of it is on Posey, which you continually fail at understanding that point.

dgranger17
01-30-2011, 11:05 PM
WHEN we still lose? Get off the board

joeyd
01-30-2011, 11:39 PM
Good lord! This board truly is a microcosm of society. And I'm starting to get a little disillusioned with society!

Come on, the body isn't even cold yet!

spazzxb
01-31-2011, 12:16 AM
They didn't "bash" Posey when he's mentioned in games he got DNP-CD. They were saying "see JIM, this is the results when you don't play him....."

Their pointing out the results to Jim, who routinely ignores the facts when they don't fit his view of how he should have coached.

None of it is on Posey, which you continually fail at understanding that point.

Its mainly about 2 guys that the Darksiders defend as their own. Jim's gone, so this is a dead topic for now. However the first page of every game thread going back a while contains references to puke and Posey that contradict your claims. He gets bashed every game thread repetitively. Only a blind man would have trouble finding examples of Posey getting bashed. You all know this .

Since86
01-31-2011, 12:55 AM
Will you ever learn?

"When JIM plays POSEY so many minutes, instead of using him in spot minutes, it makes me want to PUKE."

Jim's decision is the one being bashed in that statement, not Posey. It contains both your reference requirements.

spazzxb
01-31-2011, 01:47 AM
Will you ever learn?

"When JIM plays POSEY so many minutes, instead of using him in spot minutes, it makes me want to PUKE."

Jim's decision is the one being bashed in that statement, not Posey. It contains both your reference requirements.

Don't say the when will you ever learn crap.

For some reason there was only 1 person that could be used to properly bash the coach over and over and over, ect.. Do you not realize that it involves insulting a player abilities to say a coach is incompetent for playing them? Especially when one does not even consider the circumstances or wait to see if they actually play. If someone said your boss was incompetent for letting you work, would you not be insulted?

Since86
01-31-2011, 02:39 AM
And here's comes the victim card.....

No, I wouldn't be insulted. I would be pissed that my boss is putting me in ****ty situations! I'd be mad at the person in the WRONG, who is Jim, rather than the people that are correct.

How Jim used Posey is merely an example of why I think Jim isn't a good coach. I think he misused TJ, and I like TJ. I think he misused Josh. I think he misused Roy. I think he misused a lot of players.

But you know what? I don't blame any of them when they're asked to do things they shouldn't have been asked to do, and that includes James Posey.

I don't know how else it can be said. You think we're "attacking" Posey when no one has any ill feelings towards anything that Posey can actually do something about! I don't blame Posey for being who he is. When used in the right circumstances, Posey is beneficial.

spazzxb
01-31-2011, 02:46 AM
Are you saying no-one has ever talked bad about Posey as a player? The circle should end here if your honest. You do realize I wasn't talking about you right?


And here's comes the victim card.....

No, I wouldn't be insulted. I would be pissed that my boss is putting me in ****ty situations! I'd be mad at the person in the WRONG, who is Jim, rather than the people that are correct.

How Jim used Posey is merely an example of why I think Jim isn't a good coach. I think he misused TJ, and I like TJ. I think he misused Josh. I think he misused Roy. I think he misused a lot of players.

But you know what? I don't blame any of them when they're asked to do things they shouldn't have been asked to do, and that includes James Posey.

I don't know how else it can be said. You think we're "attacking" Posey when no one has any ill feelings towards anything that Posey can actually do something about! I don't blame Posey for being who he is. When used in the right circumstances, Posey is beneficial.

Since86
01-31-2011, 03:03 AM
Of course negative comments have been said about his ability.

He isn't good enough to guard Amare, but was asked to do so. So when Amare makes him look like a chump, something is going to be said in the moment. But that's the problem, because JIM decided to do something that clearly had no hope of working, it brought the criticism to Posey.

Now when you ask me if that's a bad comment towards Posey, I would say yes, it is a negative post. (although there aren't many who can guard him. but Posey is is like leaving him open)

But Jim brings that criticism on Posey, because he made the decision. I feel bad that Posey is being asked to do something he cannot.

Jim should recognize what James can, and can't do, and only ask him to do the things he can. That is putting Posey in an extremely difficult spot when you're asking him to do things outside of his ability.

I'm sure he will say he will give his all to stop Amare, but I bet even he'll agree that he just doesn't have the tools necessary.

Posey gets compensated quite nicely to be able to handle softball criticisms.

spazzxb
01-31-2011, 03:18 AM
Of course negative comments have been said about his ability.

He isn't good enough to guard Amare, but was asked to do so. So when Amare makes him look like a chump, something is going to be said in the moment. But that's the problem, because JIM decided to do something that clearly had no hope of working, it brought the criticism to Posey.

Now when you ask me if that's a bad comment towards Posey, I would say yes, it is a negative post. (although there aren't many who can guard him. but Posey is is like leaving him open)

But Jim brings that criticism on Posey, because he made the decision. I feel bad that Posey is being asked to do something he cannot.

Jim should recognize what James can, and can't do, and only ask him to do the things he can. That is putting Posey in an extremely difficult spot when you're asking him to do things outside of his ability.

I'm sure he will say he will give his all to stop Amare, but I bet even he'll agree that he just doesn't have the tools necessary.

Posey gets compensated quite nicely to be able to handle softball criticisms.

lol, I don't care about Posey being offended. You were debating wether or not people bash Posey.

Since86
01-31-2011, 03:29 AM
Are the "bashings" correct?

Should Jim play Posey so many minutes? Should he trade him in so he can guard Joel P. in Portland, Amare, Blake Griffin, etc?

This isn't like how Dunleavy is viewed in GS, where they still boo him 4 years later, and it was a personal situation.

This is simply about Jim not understanding the strengths of his players, that his system isn't working, and that he's asking some players to simply do things they cannot do.

So yes, when Amare scores on Posey, people are going to take their frustrations out on Posey, but it's Jim O'Brien that is causing the frustration.

eric1516
01-31-2011, 06:17 AM
Like anything, people will find a scapegoat when things aren't going their way. However, for the majority of fans,through the rest of this season there won't be a "lightening rod" coach, staff member, or player.

Simon responded to the calls by fans and as such they will respond by supporting the team through the remainder of the season despite the number of W's. Of course, that would change if the fans sensed a level of detachment from the players but I don't think we are going to see that from here on out. Either way GO PACERS!

Major Cold
01-31-2011, 11:18 AM
I disagree, most of the posts on this form blamed JOB for losses and suggested that when we won it was in spite of JOB. I really hope the attitude here improves now.


Not everyone would admit to this, but I heard it all to often.

I hated JOB as a coach. But I never assumed that things would get better once he was out of the equation.

Automatically folks are expecting us to make a run at the final spot. It is possible, and I desire it. I am in FTW area and I have already gone to 6 games, with 6 more to go. I shook my head many times when Josh was pulled and Posey was in the game too long.

But I am a realist. You can say it is not about wins, but developing players so that they will someday win...is in fact about wins.

McRoberts needed more minutes I agree. Hibbert needed to play through 3 fouls at times in his first year. And for the love of all that is Holy why did Murphy get a pass on bad defense, while Josh got yanked so often?

Many problems are present despite the main problem being gone. We really do not have a offensive weapon that can take over games, and no coach could of "developed" a player into that.

We still do not have an outstanding individual defensive ace. And Rush and Granger were given that opportunity.

We are far from a consistent, competitive team. But we are young and we have assets to get us there. JOB was a stop gap, that became a scape goat. Now accountability is needed across the board. Starting with Bird.

bellisimo
01-31-2011, 11:36 AM
I guarantee that there will be complaining if things don't change the way people want.

If the young guys make the same mistakes over and over again, are left in the games, and still make the mistakes - there will be people complaining that they aren't learning anything so they should put people out there who don't make mistakes (who that is will be determined by whoever isn't being played).

If the young guys make the same mistakes over and over but are pulled so they can get instructed on what to do, there will be people complaining that they aren't being allowed to "play through" their mistakes.

If Vogel sticks to a rotation even if players don't do well for 2 or more games in a row, there will be people complaining that he isn't evaluating players properly and giving the right players enough time.

If Vogel adjusts rotations based on player performance (or any other reason) there will be people complaining that he isn't sticking with a standard rotation, so the players are confused and don't know what they are supposed to do.

Look, there is no 100% certain way to play the game and there is no 100% certain way to coach the game. In many ways, complaints about players and coaches are not so much about them doing something "wrong", they are about that player or coach not doing things the way the complainer wants to see them done - which itself isn't very likely to be a 100% guaranteed improvement.

So, there will still be folks screaming about something. It is part of the game.

I'm just hoping it will be fewer knee-jerk sound bites and more questioning and discussing.

the problem with JOB was that he pretty much did too many things which struck a nerve to a wide range of audience...

If Vogel sticks with the young guys and they continue to make the mistakes, then at least we'll know not to bet the house on them when it comes time to extending contracts, looking for available players for certain positions and knowing where to improve, etc.

Its one thing to sticking to a rotation - its another to just make a rotation for the sole purpose of having a "rotation" and continue to lose. Its that syndrome of doing something the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

If a player has a hot hand and you're able to either make a comeback or are contiuing to abuse the opponent at will with that play/player (always reminds me of R.Wallace abusing T.Murphy) - getting them out to have them sit for "rotation" is :bs: - the difference between a coach who is a good x-o guy and one that can change the game is that - one can read how the game progresses and adjusts it on the go, while the other plans ahead and if things dont go their way, they don't really know how to change the course of the ship till they get the video of the game back and analyze all the numbers to see what can be done next time around.

I can't speak for everyone else - only for me - but i think the main thing this team right now needs is to gel together, build some sort of a foundation and continue to improve on that.

We haven't been able to do that. There has been sporadic growths here and there but they managed to be overshadowed by all the negativity....