PDA

View Full Version : Honestly, shouldn't Tyler AND Josh be starting for now?



Hicks
01-30-2011, 02:05 AM
Obviously this is assuming Tyler will be back soon.

But between Tyler, Josh, and Roy, which one least deserves to be starting right now? You have to say Roy, right?

So why not let Tyler be your "let's try to score with a big" player, while Josh does everything Josh does best, and you also are a more mobile starting 5 with them sharing the front court.

Do I wish we could have Roy's game? Sure, when he brings it, but right now he's not doing that nearly consistently enough, so I think it's time to get the most out of Josh and Tyler. Both of them are 'bringing it' more regularly than Roy is, and I like what they bring as a pair as well as individually.

Let Roy come in a little later in the game to see if he can get it going against tired starters and their backups.

Look, this isn't how I want things to be. I want Roy to deserve to be our staring center, but for now I think it needs to be different.

Trophy
01-30-2011, 02:07 AM
Jim will officially be the worst coach ever and not give a **** about winning if he benches either Josh or Tyler to still play James Posey.

CableKC
01-30-2011, 02:08 AM
As we have learned...it doesn't matter who JO'B starts.....it matters who JO'B decides to close the game with.

Merz
01-30-2011, 02:12 AM
I'd like it if they'd at least try it.

cdash
01-30-2011, 03:02 AM
No. Tyler needs to come off the bench. Josh and Roy play well together.

judicata
01-30-2011, 03:05 AM
No. Tyler needs to come off the bench. Josh and Roy play well together.

I would have thought that Roy's play against the Bulls put to rest the trend of pinning his terrible play on Tyler.

Sookie
01-30-2011, 03:20 AM
I would have thought that Roy's play against the Bulls put to rest the trend of pinning his terrible play on Tyler.

He was 1-5, but he had 5 rebounds and 5 blocks, that's not so bad. The offense was also really moving well when he was in the game in the first.

Regardless, Tyler, Josh, Foster, Hibbert needs to be our four post players..with Danny playing the PF if need be.

No more Posey. And I don't care who starts, just so long as one of either Hibbert or Tyler is in the lineup at any given time. (For scoring purposes)

CircleCity3318
01-30-2011, 03:22 AM
Well Jim is either too stubborn or stupid to try that lineup so I highly doubt it will happen. I personally would love that lineup because Roy looks worse and worse every game. I don't understand why he can't look even a fraction of what he looked like even last year. That being said, why not start Josh at the 5 with Hans at the 4. Josh can make the defensive assignments while Tyler can score. Too bad Jim o' dumb*** doesn't think this would ever work.

ColeTheMole
01-30-2011, 03:49 AM
Well Jim is either too stubborn or stupid to try that lineup so I highly doubt it will happen. I personally would love that lineup because Roy looks worse and worse every game. I don't understand why he can't look even a fraction of what he looked like even last year. That being said, why not start Josh at the 5 with Hans at the 4. Josh can make the defensive assignments while Tyler can score. Too bad Jim o' dumb*** doesn't think this would ever work.

Everyone is blowing this Roy thing way out of proportion. He can't look even a fraction of what he looked last year? Sure he is in a slump but he had five blocks tonight. In the game friday he went 7 - 12 for 20 points and 6 rebounds IN 25 MINUTES.

Yes Roy is in a slump still. But he is still averaging around 12 and 8 on the year. Calm down.

El Pacero
01-30-2011, 04:48 AM
I'd like to see Roy still start to keep his confidence up, but I would love to see Josh and Tyler playing together every game. Put those guys in with Paul George and we have a very Feisty lineup.

Unclebuck
01-30-2011, 10:25 AM
No. Tyler needs to come off the bench. Josh and Roy play well together.

Well Tyler and Collison play very wel together. So I guess it depends what is more important.


Hicks, I'm not sure what you are using as a guage as far as who should be playing. But if we are just looking at the here and now, Jeff Foster has been by far our best big guy over the past 4 or 5 weeks

pwee31
01-30-2011, 10:36 AM
Jim will officially be the worst coach ever and not give a **** about winning if he benches either Josh or Tyler to still play James Posey.

Sorry that has already happened!

I'm a huge Hansbrough supporter, but I think he would be better coming off the bench and playing with the 2nd unit. I prefer Josh starting b/c he does so many of the intangibles well.

You have Granger, Collison and Roy who can score the ball in that starting lineup, even Dunleavy, so Josh being the defender and passer that he is blends in well with that group.

Tyler does as well, but he's more of a scorer and he could really bolster the 2nd unit, while usually getting a favorable match-up as well.

It's true Tyler and Collison run the pick in roll well, but I think Price and Tyler could as well. Haven't really seen that since T.J has been getting backup minutes, but I think Price and Hansbrough could be a good combination.

Sadly none of this matters

D-BONE
01-30-2011, 11:09 AM
You have Granger, Collison and Roy who can score the ball in that starting lineup, even Dunleavy, so Josh being the defender and passer that he is blends in well with that group.



Good argument. Sounds fine to me.

I think part of the "sadly none of this matters" issue is that the guys you tap here as the scorers are really dependable scorers night in and night our right now with the exception of Granger.

BlueNGold
01-30-2011, 11:23 AM
What honks me off is that the Pacers haven't given BOTH of them significant minutes since November.

In November, Josh got a ton of time prior to Jim attempting to convert him to Troy Murphy. Tyler got a little time too in November. The result was a competitive team.

In December, Josh started shooting more threes, Tyler was benched and Roy lost confidence. Don't think these were related?

In January, Josh gets benched and Jim wheels Tyler back out as the starter. Now Josh finally gets on the floor and looks like the best player out there...ONLY because Tyler is out.

I don't care who starts. PLAY THEM BOTH JIM!

Makem JOBless
01-30-2011, 11:55 AM
Well Tyler and Collison play very wel together. So I guess it depends what is more important.


Hicks, I'm not sure what you are using as a guage as far as who should be playing. But if we are just looking at the here and now, Jeff Foster has been by far our best big guy over the past 4 or 5 weeks

So what is more important? Look at the team's record when Roy and McRoberts were playing significant minutes together. They were 9-7 at end of November when O'Brien started tinkering with the lineups.

Roy and Josh were playing well as a front court tandem. Tyler was playing well off the bench as a scorer. They were playing their roles, and things were good.

Now look at the Pacers' record with Hansbrough in the starting lineup. 2-8.

Sure maybe Collison and Hansbrough have been playing well together off the pick-and-roll, but has it led to a better record? Nope.

Pacerized
01-30-2011, 12:16 PM
I'd like to see Tyler start and Josh get major minutes. I still believe in having a true center on the floor and niether Tyler of Josh can really play center. It's been obvious forever now that the odd men out of the 4/5 rotation should be Posey and Solo but JOB seems to want to keep at least 1 player in that rotation that sucks so someone who really contributes is just going to have to get a dnp.

vnzla81
01-30-2011, 12:20 PM
I don't care who starts as long as Josh, Tyler and Roy get playing time, I AM SICK AND TIRED OF JIM AND HIS JAMES POSEY MAN CRUSH.

Mackey_Rose
01-30-2011, 12:31 PM
I don't know why we wouldn't go back to what has worked in the past. The offense is so much better when Josh is in the starting lineup. He just does more to help his teammates.

Tyler is a better scorer, but that doesn't necessarily make him a better offensive player. Josh passes, moves without the ball, and sets better and more effective screens. Tyler gets the ball and gets tunnel vision. He can't do anything but score, so that's what he tries to do.

That is his game. It is better suited coming off the bench.

I've been saying it all year.

Sookie
01-30-2011, 01:17 PM
Well Tyler and Collison play very wel together. So I guess it depends what is more important.


Hicks, I'm not sure what you are using as a guage as far as who should be playing. But if we are just looking at the here and now, Jeff Foster has been by far our best big guy over the past 4 or 5 weeks

We need a low post threat in the second unit though. Our second unit is going to continue to get creamed if it's essentially "Foster, Posey, George, X, Price" Particularly if X is Rush.

That means we only have guys who can score on the perimter. I wouldn't be opposed to starting Tyler and Jeff, and bringing Hibbert and Josh in off the bench. We can go with Tyler and Josh, but I'd rather have Josh and Roy playing together.

I thought it was ironic last night that it was Collison running the motion and Price running the "point guard dribbles the ball around trying to run off of PnRs" offense. Price would rather play the motion offense and Collison would rather go with the second. So play the guys with Price that can also run the motion offense (Josh, Roy, Dun) and play the guys with Collison that would rather be in the PnR (Hans, Foster, George)..Those have been our best big guys and our best shooting guard anyway, why wouldn't we start them?

Hicks
01-30-2011, 01:26 PM
No. Tyler needs to come off the bench. Josh and Roy play well together.

You mean like those two points he had last night?

idioteque
01-30-2011, 01:34 PM
Absolutely Roy needs to come off the bench for awhile; something needs to change with him. I love Roy, but he's rapidly plunged from MIP to "are we going to keep this guy around when his rookie deal is up?" I have faith in Roy that he can bounce back, but seriously, we could end up letting both Brandon and Roy go without seriously attempting to resign them. What a waste that draft would be.

Hicks
01-30-2011, 01:35 PM
I don't know why we wouldn't go back to what has worked in the past. The offense is so much better when Josh is in the starting lineup. He just does more to help his teammates.

Tyler is a better scorer, but that doesn't necessarily make him a better offensive player. Josh passes, moves without the ball, and sets better and more effective screens. Tyler gets the ball and gets tunnel vision. He can't do anything but score, so that's what he tries to do.

That is his game. It is better suited coming off the bench.

I've been saying it all year.

One sentence about the topic at hand, the rest yet another 'Why I think Josh > Tyler' post.

This is about putting them together. Let Tyler be your scorer instead of Roy, while Josh moves and sets screens and passes. They both do what they do more consistently than Roy does what he does. That's the whole point.

I'm so sick of 'Josh vs. Tyler.'

vnzla81
01-30-2011, 01:36 PM
You mean like those two points he had last night?

Other than the two points I still think that Roy did a good job last night(compared to the last few games) even though his coach put him on a position were he was defending Boozer instead of the 100 years old KT.

Mackey_Rose
01-30-2011, 02:09 PM
One sentence about the topic at hand, the rest yet another 'Why I think Josh > Tyler' post.

This is about putting them together. Let Tyler be your scorer instead of Roy, while Josh moves and sets screens and passes. They both do what they do more consistently than Roy does what he does. That's the whole point.

I'm so sick of 'Josh vs. Tyler.'

The whole post was about the topic at hand. You play them together significant minutes every night, but you don't start them together.

If this team is going to be successful, Roy needs to start playing well again. That isn't going to happen by benching him. He doesn't have the mentality to handle that kind of demotion. He's the single most important player in regards to the win/loss record. You gotta ride out the rough patch with him. This current rough patch has been excrutiatingly long and rough, but we haven't even tried to help him out of it.

Put him back in the same position he was in before when he was successful. He really hasn't had a chance to do that since JOB tinkered with the rotation for no reason. I'm just saying, let's go back to what works. A three-man PF/C rotation is all we really used when things were going well, and that's all we really need.

No more Posey or Foster in the regular rotation. If foul trouble necessitates that they need to play occasionally, so be it, but they don't need to play consistently.

MTM
01-30-2011, 02:47 PM
Josh and Roy like playing together and have good chemistry. Foster and Tyler playing together works well because Tyler is a scorer and Foster doesn't need to shoot, and they both play scrappy with energy. There's your 4-man big rotation.

vnzla81
01-30-2011, 02:49 PM
Who cares about this now? hopefully the new coach is not a duma$$ and starts playing the young guys and sits Posey for the rest of the season.

PacerHound
01-30-2011, 03:14 PM
So what is more important? Look at the team's record when Roy and McRoberts were playing significant minutes together. They were 9-7 at end of November when O'Brien started tinkering with the lineups.

Roy and Josh were playing well as a front court tandem. Tyler was playing well off the bench as a scorer. They were playing their roles, and things were good.

Now look at the Pacers' record with Hansbrough in the starting lineup. 2-8.

Sure maybe Collison and Hansbrough have been playing well together off the pick-and-roll, but has it led to a better record? Nope.

I am sure you are not saying what a first read implies - that it has all been Tyler's fault. I know you don't mean that so I am not going to imply you do.

cdash
01-30-2011, 03:17 PM
You mean like those two points he had last night?

They played well together for a string of games at the beginning of the season, did they not? The team was more successful then, were they not? What have Tyler and Roy done on the court together, besides lose a lot?

spazzxb
01-30-2011, 04:29 PM
I would have thought that Roy's play against the Bulls put to rest the trend of pinning his terrible play on Tyler.

Did anything happen to make you think Josh and Foster are a good pair? I didn't see last nights game. I don't see people blaming Tyler for Roy. Tyler is a much better match with Foster than Josh is. What I don't get, is why the OP thinks Josh is a good option at center. Unless you think Hibbert can play the 4, people shouldn't be treating the 4-5 as one position.

judicata
01-30-2011, 06:43 PM
They played well together for a string of games at the beginning of the season, did they not? The team was more successful then, were they not? What have Tyler and Roy done on the court together, besides lose a lot?

So Tyler is the reason why Roy has been bad and why the Pacers are losing.

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2011, 06:53 PM
So Tyler is the reason why Roy has been bad and why the Pacers are losing.
I think the feeling is that Josh compliments Roy more, allows him to do what he does better and especially helps protect him on defense as a 2nd shot blocker.

Tyler's thing is scoring as the main target, ie you run a PnPop specifically to get him a shot, the ball ends in Tyler's hands on most plays. Tyler also doesn't really have a cutters game to work off another post man.

You might get Tyler to where he can feed Roy for the kickout jumper in return, but that's not Tyler's game right now either.


I actually like AJ to start and then DC-Tyler-George as the 3 man tandem off the bench because George keeps you covered with an off man jumpshot threat while DC/Tyler run PnR/PnPop to death and punish teams with it.

You start with Danny, Roy and bits of Rush for scoring, then come back with Tyler, DC and George for scoring...with some overlap obviously.

I realize that everyone sees DC over AJ, but I think AJ is more about getting others involved beyond the PnR whereas DC's strength is that 2 man game and scoring his own buckets. Its less about starting AJ and more about matching each guy up with the best situations.

DC with Roy doesn't seem like a great mesh at times.

cdash
01-30-2011, 06:53 PM
So Tyler is the reason why Roy has been bad and why the Pacers are losing.

Right. That is exactly what I said.

I just think Josh's skill set is a better compliment to Roy's game than Tyler's is.

Mackey_Rose
01-30-2011, 06:53 PM
So Tyler is the reason why Roy has been bad and why the Pacers are losing.

No. That is not what anyone is saying, but Josh is a better complement to Roy than Tyler, and the records with each starting are unarguable.

True be told, it isn't even relevant about who is the better player individually between Tyler and Josh. It is 100% relevant about which player fits in better in the role they should be playing.

Josh is a better fit than Tyler next to the other starters. He does more to help his teammates on both ends of the floor than Tyler has ever thought about doing. Tyler is a better fit than Josh off the bench. He is more aggressive in creating offense for himself than Josh has ever thought about being.

They are different players. They both are ideal pieces to fill different roles, and they both have a role to fill on this team.

judicata
01-30-2011, 07:48 PM
Right. That is exactly what I said.

I just think Josh's skill set is a better compliment to Roy's game than Tyler's is.

Don't get coy on me now, that is exactly what you said.

As for the general theme of the derailing of this thread, its a reasonable position. Maybe Josh helps Roy play better. I don't see it, considering that teams can practically ignore Josh on offense and focus more on Roy in the post.

As for the actual purpose of this thread, I don't think its time to put Roy on the bench yet. In truth we should not really tinker with the starters (with the exception of Dunleavy and the Josh/Tyler interchangeability) until we see what kind of system is going to be installed for the next few years. Roy has the yips and benching him, rather than making him fight through it, is possibly more harm than good. Especially to start someone out of position that is a pretty marginal starter at his proclaimed position.

Mackey_Rose
01-31-2011, 02:02 PM
Don't get coy on me now, that is exactly what you said.

As for the general theme of the derailing of this thread, its a reasonable position. Maybe Josh helps Roy play better. I don't see it, considering that teams can practically ignore Josh on offense and focus more on Roy in the post.

This is the same mistake that is made over and over on this board. Being an effective offensive player is not just about how many points a guy scores, or how much attention they draw from the defense. With regard to playing next to Roy, it is even less important as Roy is a scorer, and a very good passer himself.

Josh is one of, probably the best, passers on this team. This is especially true when it comes to feeding the post. It blows my mind how often it looks like guys, at this level, don't have any clue how to throw an effective pass into the post. Josh is very good about passing the ball to the post man's correct hand. He knows how to set up the pass by creating the proper angles, and he gets the ball to the right place at the right time.

He is one of the few guys on the team (occasionally Dunleavy does as well) who makes a concerted effort to get the ball to Roy when he has good position down low. Roy cannot be effective in the post if nobody will try, or is able, to get him the ball down there.

Josh also has very good offensive awareness when he is playing off-the-ball. There was one play I remember specifically from Saturday night's game in Chicago that really stood out to me.

Josh passed the ball, from the top of the key, to Roy at the high post just off the right elbow. Dunleavy was down near the left side block when Josh initiated the play.

Immediately after passing to Roy, Josh set a down screen on Bogans to try to free Dunleavy for an open shot at the top of the key. Bogans went over top of the screen and cut off the passing angle from Roy to Mike. This was a good initial defensive play by Bogans to deny Mike te ball, but it got him out of position, and Josh and Mike both recognized it immediately.

Josh then set a very solid back screen on Bogans. Mike cut back door down the left side of the lane, and Roy fed Mike for an easy, wide-open layup.

Two easy points, that all happened in the span of about 3 seconds.

This kind of passing and off-the-ball movement is something that Josh adds to the offense. It doesn't show up anywhere in the box score, but it is certainly significant. I'm no Dunleavy fan, but the two-man games that Josh and Mike play opposite the ball, have been exceedingly effective this year.

Since86
01-31-2011, 02:17 PM
I don't think you start both Tyler and Josh, and in the end, I don't think it's going to matter who starts beside Roy.

I think we will see more of a concentrated effort to establish Roy, and there is more than one way to get Roy involved offensively. Josh has done a good job, while he's been paired next to Roy, but I don't think the results that we've seen show the argument that Tyler couldn't work either.

I think Roy can be effective with Tyler as a running mate. You just have to work on getting Roy the ball in different ways, than you do with Josh.

I really don't care either way, just as long as it gets done.

Hicks
01-31-2011, 07:12 PM
By the way, this thread was created under the idea that Jim was going to be our coach the remainder of the year. I want to keep Roy starting now that there's been a coaching change.

flox
01-31-2011, 07:13 PM
By the way, this thread was created under the idea that Jim was going to be our coach the remainder of the year. I want to keep Roy starting now that there's been a coaching change.

Out of curiosity, why?

Shabazz
01-31-2011, 07:13 PM
No. Tyler needs to come off the bench. Josh and Roy play well together.


LMAO

By all means, if you want the Pacers to remain at the bottom of the NBA, start McNugget over Hansbrough.

The question of who is better between Hansbrough and McRoberts was answered way back in '05-'06. It isn't even a question anymore. Hansbrough beats McNugget like a rented mule.

Hicks
01-31-2011, 11:32 PM
Out of curiosity, why?

It should be obvious, I think. Vogel is going to urge the team to get Roy the ball more often, and he's going to be more patient with Roy when Roy struggles. Tonight was Exhibit A. I'm fine with Roy starting with Frank Vogel in charge. I think Roy was done for the year (essentially) if Jim had stayed.

Hicks
01-31-2011, 11:34 PM
LMAO

By all means, if you want the Pacers to remain at the bottom of the NBA, start McNugget over Hansbrough.

The question of who is better between Hansbrough and McRoberts was answered way back in '05-'06. It isn't even a question anymore. Hansbrough beats McNugget like a rented mule.

Dude, just stop. This isn't Tar Heels Digest. Josh isn't our enemy, he's your enemy. We don't care.

Signed,

A Pacers Fan who actually likes Tyler's game more than Josh's, but I like both a lot.

Speed
01-31-2011, 11:37 PM
LMAO

By all means, if you want the Pacers to remain at the bottom of the NBA, start McNugget over Hansbrough.

The question of who is better between Hansbrough and McRoberts was answered way back in '05-'06. It isn't even a question anymore. Hansbrough beats McNugget like a rented mule.


I knew there was one singular thing thats been keeping this team down, now we know.

presto123
01-31-2011, 11:41 PM
Dude, just stop. This isn't Tar Heels Digest. Josh isn't our enemy, he's your enemy. We don't care.

Signed,

A Pacers Fan who actually likes Tyler's game more than Josh's, but I like both a lot.



I like Josh's game a little better than Tyler's but I'm not going to bash Tyler. I'm glad they are both seeing minutes.

cdash
01-31-2011, 11:43 PM
LMAO

By all means, if you want the Pacers to remain at the bottom of the NBA, start McNugget over Hansbrough.

The question of who is better between Hansbrough and McRoberts was answered way back in '05-'06. It isn't even a question anymore. Hansbrough beats McNugget like a rented mule.

Oh. Cool. Didn't realize this was Duke/UNC again. Get out of here. Go root for your underachieving Tar Heels someplace else.

Hicks
01-31-2011, 11:44 PM
Between the two of them, even though I like Tyler a little bit better, I tend to agree Josh is the best choice to start. Better defensive matchup against more starting PFs (sometimes I think Tyler would be better, when it's a PF who likes to bruise his way around in the post), better fit with our other starters.

cdash
01-31-2011, 11:49 PM
Between the two of them, even though I like Tyler a little bit better, I tend to agree Josh is the best choice to start. Better defensive matchup against more starting PFs (sometimes I think Tyler would be better, when it's a PF who likes to bruise his way around in the post), better fit with our other starters.

I like Tyler's offensive punch in the second unit. Josh's athletic, shot blocking, high flying game is a really nice complement to Hibbert's slower, more ground based game. Tyler is a better player I think, but for this team, I think he would be more effective off the bench.

BPump33
01-31-2011, 11:51 PM
I like Tyler's offensive punch in the second unit. Josh's athletic, shot blocking, high flying game is a really nice complement to Hibbert's slower, more ground based game. Tyler is a better player I think, but for this team, I think he would be more effective off the bench.

Exactly.

I don't care who likes Tyler and who likes Josh or where they went to school. They really seem to like each other and that's what matters. They root each other on and it really looks like they push each other to get better.

Pacerfan
01-31-2011, 11:52 PM
They both give a hundred percent every night and that's all you can really ask of them.

presto123
01-31-2011, 11:54 PM
Exactly.

I don't care who likes Tyler and who likes Josh or where they went to school. They really seem to like each other and that's what matters. They root each other on and it really looks like they push each other to get better.


Are you McRoberts brother? Just kidding:-p You resemble him a little.

BPump33
01-31-2011, 11:55 PM
Are you McRoberts brother? Just kidding:-p You resemble him a little.

I think I need to change pictures. Haha.

presto123
01-31-2011, 11:58 PM
I think I need to change pictures. Haha.


NA......that's a good pic man.

Sookie
02-01-2011, 12:02 AM
I like Tyler's offensive punch in the second unit. Josh's athletic, shot blocking, high flying game is a really nice complement to Hibbert's slower, more ground based game. Tyler is a better player I think, but for this team, I think he would be more effective off the bench.

I wish I could thank you for this post about 1000 times..

We also need him to provide some low post scoring, because having Foster and Josh play together isn't going to get that done..You gotta have a balance between the perimeter and the post.

presto123
02-01-2011, 12:14 AM
How many three's has Josh passed up in the last couple of games that he could have taken? Total opposite of what he was doing in Nov/Dec. He is really an unselfish player. He could be scoring more but he usually looks pass first and keep offense flowing. I'm not knocking Tyler in any way but he was looking to shoot almost every time he touched the ball tonight. Those two just have different games. I don't know if I would want Tyler to look to shoot that much if his shot wasn't falling though.

pwee31
02-01-2011, 01:21 AM
Sorry that has already happened!

I'm a huge Hansbrough supporter, but I think he would be better coming off the bench and playing with the 2nd unit. I prefer Josh starting b/c he does so many of the intangibles well.

You have Granger, Collison and Roy who can score the ball in that starting lineup, even Dunleavy, so Josh being the defender and passer that he is blends in well with that group.

Tyler does as well, but he's more of a scorer and he could really bolster the 2nd unit, while usually getting a favorable match-up as well.

It's true Tyler and Collison run the pick in roll well, but I think Price and Tyler could as well. Haven't really seen that since T.J has been getting backup minutes, but I think Price and Hansbrough could be a good combination.

Sadly none of this matters

It actually matters now, and I thought this action worked really well. 15 minutes and 14 and 6 for Tyler. He took like 13 shots but hit 6 of them, and 14 points off the bench is nice any night.

I think Tyler is capable of starting and bring productive at PF, but when he's coming off the bench, he's going to have a favorable match-up about 80% of the time. Of course he may still run into starters, or other good PFs off the bench.

I thought tonight's rotation was nice. Hansbrough will get more minutes when he's healthier to balance him and McRoberts out at PF, but everything else was pretty good. (No Posey)

jeffg-body
02-01-2011, 01:32 AM
I would not be opposed to starting Josh and Tyler together if Roy and Josh could split the minutes depending on the match ups. When we match-up with a big that is dominant we use Roy more. When we get a big that can move and stretch the floor we go with Josh.

judicata
02-01-2011, 02:26 PM
It actually matters now, and I thought this action worked really well. 15 minutes and 14 and 6 for Tyler. He took like 13 shots but hit 6 of them, and 14 points off the bench is nice any night.

Most people see a guy who goes for 14/6 in 15 minutes and think he needs more minutes. Especially when the guy in front of him is 4/6 in 30 minutes. I know you guys are going to go back to the "he compliments Hibbert and provides intangibles" well. That is essentially an extension of the eyeball test. That test does not work with Tyler. His game is ugly and that is never going to change.

Again, put me in with the folks that want to see Posey in a suit. I do think that Tyler adds a lot to this team, even to the first unit. He is by far a more physical player than Josh and is the only player that would bring power scoring rather than a finesse based game. For all the chatter about Josh's intangibles, Tyler brings as many, if not more. They are just of a different nature.

With Hibbert, Dunleavy, Collison and Granger we have 4 guys who can pass very well, shoot from range, and run sets. They cannot smash someone's face in and take their cookies on the way to the stripe. They will not put bruises on the opponent's front line. They definitely will not get opposing bigs on the bench in the first quarter from drawing fouls.

I believe there are diminishing returns to the skills that Josh brings with the first unit because they are there in abundance. Obviously the coach agrees with you folks.


Go root for your underachieving Tar Heels someplace else.

Keep chucking stones, Hoosier. I wonder if Cody reconsiders his commitment if the Hoosiers finish under .500?

BPump33
02-01-2011, 02:32 PM
Judicata,

Without getting into all the NCAA stuff, so you think this team would be better with Josh/Jeff as the second unit? If Tyler starts I think that severely hinders our low post game when the starters are out.

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 02:33 PM
i like the way the pacers are using both tyler and paul george. they have gone back to what they did at the start of the year. use them as the 1st player off the bench. since both of them are still a little raw, it gives the game a chance to get started and into a flow. they can be more offensive as soon as they come in. paul is getting shots from the corner 3 spot. a shot that is less pressured/more open. tyler is getting a chance to come in and shoot. roy has been established. the defense has adjusted. and tyler has gotten easier better shots as a result.

nice bit of coaching. reducing the amount of thinking the guys have to do. give them more chance to just play. :thumbsup:

judicata
02-01-2011, 02:41 PM
Judicata,

Without getting into all the NCAA stuff, so you think this team would be better with Josh/Jeff as the second unit? If Tyler starts I think that severely hinders our low post game when the starters are out.

I do not believe in Hockey Line substitutions. Barring foul trouble, Hibbert should come out before the starting PF pretty much every game. You are not going to see Josh and Foster down low together for more than 3 minutes if that is the case. Besides, Dunleavy should be on the pine as well. George/Dun/Price might be attenuated heavily towards outside shooting, but you can do that when you have Foster and McRoberts on the glass.

At any rate, I do not have the answers. I would like to see Tyler get his fair shake at the starting line up since he played there about 10 games when the team was pretty awful. I hate to see guys lose their position due to injury, especially when that injury lasted for 2 games. Obviously there is a new coach in the mix. But Josh got an extended shot as a starter and was below average. I want Tyler to get his 20 odd games with the first unit.

xIndyFan
02-01-2011, 02:48 PM
. . . I would like to see Tyler get his fair shake at the starting line up since he played there about 10 games when the team was pretty awful. I hate to see guys lose their position due to injury, especially when that injury lasted for 2 games. Obviously there is a new coach in the mix. But Josh got an extended shot as a starter and was below average. I want Tyler to get his 20 odd games with the first unit.

jmo, but tyler and josh are competing for the backup big spot in next years team. that is the competition with josh that he [and his fans] should be worried about. jmo, but he is winning that contest. i expect next year a new PF will be traded for/signed and tyler will back him up. unless josh gets a good offer from someone else, he will be back as 3rd PF/5th big.

it's not about tyler getting to start, it's about tyler being able to play at the NBA level. both physically and mentally. the physical part seems to be ok. the mental part is still up in the air. tyler can prove he is a rotation player by playing well off the bench. he does not have to start. :shrug::)

cdash
02-01-2011, 02:56 PM
Keep chucking stones, Hoosier. I wonder if Cody reconsiders his commitment if the Hoosiers finish under .500?

No, because he knew damn good and well we probably were going to finish under .500. We are what we were expected to be. Two years in a row the Tar Heels have fallen flat on their faces with a roster full of McDonald's All-Americans. I will freely admit that UNC is a better program than IU at this point, but the alarming amount of bandwagon fans for both UNC and Duke makes me ill.

judicata
02-01-2011, 03:37 PM
No, because he knew damn good and well we probably were going to finish under .500. We are what we were expected to be. Two years in a row the Tar Heels have fallen flat on their faces with a roster full of McDonald's All-Americans. I will freely admit that UNC is a better program than IU at this point, but the alarming amount of bandwagon fans for both UNC and Duke makes me ill.

Carolina has lost 12 players in the last two years to the draft, graduation, and transfer. That is more than they have on scholarship right now. Last year, the Heels had 1 returning starter. This year is the same, with one player who started last year starting right now, and he missed a lot of games last year due to injury.

I know that ABCers get their jollies parroting journalists and stating that Carolina has fallen. I expect that from dookies and other jokers, but someone who has the patience to stick by IU ought to know that there is more to the story than Mickey D's AAs and an NIT appearance.

And you have no business calling people bandwagon fans without knowing the first thing about them.

cdash
02-01-2011, 03:48 PM
Carolina has lost 12 players in the last two years to the draft, graduation, and transfer. That is more than they have on scholarship right now. Last year, the Heels had 1 returning starter. This year is the same, with one player who started last year starting right now, and he missed a lot of games last year due to injury.

I know that ABCers get their jollies parroting journalists and stating that Carolina has fallen. I expect that from dookies and other jokers, but someone who has the patience to stick by IU ought to know that there is more to the story than Mickey D's AAs and an NIT appearance.

And you have no business calling people bandwagon fans without knowing the first thing about them.

I didn't call you a bandwagon fan now did I? Take it easy champ.

Usually I consider people to be bandwagon fans or front runners if they don't meet the following criteria: A) Are you from North Carolina or the surrounding area? B) Did you go to college at UNC? C) Did your parents go to college at UNC or at the very least were they big enough Tar Heel fans that they beat it into your head when you were growing up? D) Do you have some sort of undeniable ties to the university?

I don't know, or care really, if you meet that criteria, but I think at the very least you can admit that UNC and Duke have a crapload of bandwagon fans, no?

Also, I think at the very least you can admit that the Tar Heels, defections or not, have underachieved the past two years. Sure, they lost a lot of guys, but they replaced them with other All-Americans. Now, I am not saying that UNC won't get back up. They have too great of a program and too great of a coach to stay down for long.

judicata
02-01-2011, 03:57 PM
Also, I think at the very least you can admit that the Tar Heels, defections or not, have underachieved the past two years. Sure, they lost a lot of guys, but they replaced them with other All-Americans. Now, I am not saying that UNC won't get back up. They have too great of a program and too great of a coach to stay down for long.

Last year they were just bad. This year it is a different story. They are 15-5 with 4 good losses on the road and tied for first in the ACC. More importantly, they are getting better. They can still bugger it up, but I do not see this season as anything like last season. They already have as many ACC wins as last year.

cdash
02-01-2011, 04:02 PM
Last year they were just bad. This year it is a different story. They are 15-5 with 4 good losses on the road and tied for first in the ACC. More importantly, they are getting better. They can still bugger it up, but I do not see this season as anything like last season. They already have as many ACC wins as last year.

They are 15-5? Hmm, better than I thought they were doing. Last I saw out of them was that embarrassing loss to Georgia Tech (I believe). Even so, I think they were a preseason top 10 team.