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Tom White
01-28-2011, 10:04 PM
D. Jones still can't get in the game?

What the heck is wrong with this picture?

pizza guy
01-28-2011, 10:08 PM
nothing.

vnzla81
01-28-2011, 10:08 PM
That he can't still shoot the three.

Tom White
01-28-2011, 10:14 PM
Finally!

What the heck did D. Jones do to honk off the coach so bad that it takes a blowout like this to get some time in?

sportfireman
01-28-2011, 10:14 PM
There shouldn't be any starters on the floor at this point..... should be. Price, Lance or DJ, PG, Posey and Solo....or some combo of bench players.

CableKC
01-28-2011, 10:17 PM
Did Lance dress tonight?

sportfireman
01-28-2011, 10:19 PM
Did Lance dress tonight?
Don't think so....

CircleCity3318
01-28-2011, 10:22 PM
No he didn't it would have been a perfect chance for him to get his feet wet tonight

O'Braindead
01-28-2011, 10:30 PM
I, for one, actually really like Dahntay Jones and all of the energy he brings. It's good to have someone who doesn't settle for the jumper, plays energetic defense, and always goes 110%. That's all that can be asked for; Not to mention that he can play.

There are two determining factors in his lack of playing time, I think:

1.) He doesn't get along with the coach.
2.) He doesn't shoot the three.

He's got a lot of downsides: Turnovers, overdribbling, etc.. But it is overset by the energy that is consistently there when he is in the game and his "Win over everything" mentality.

When we get a new coach I have a strange feeling that Dahntay will get some backup wing minutes every game, and they are well deserved.

BlueNGold
01-28-2011, 10:39 PM
D. Jones still can't get in the game?

What the heck is wrong with this picture?

You do know that Jim doesn't like guys that talk back.

Lester was another casualty...

90'sNBARocked
01-28-2011, 10:46 PM
We were harping on this since the midway point of the third quarter

Absolutely mindbogglingly

pacer4ever
01-28-2011, 10:56 PM
JOB was classless bringing there starters back when the game was clearly over. The nets starters - Favors sat out most of the 2nd half. It is an un written rule that u dont do that.

D-BONE
01-28-2011, 11:49 PM
I, for one, actually really like Dahntay Jones and all of the energy he brings. It's good to have someone who doesn't settle for the jumper, plays energetic defense, and always goes 110%. That's all that can be asked for; Not to mention that he can play.

There are two determining factors in his lack of playing time, I think:

1.) He doesn't get along with the coach.
2.) He doesn't shoot the three.

He's got a lot of downsides: Turnovers, overdribbling, etc.. But it is overset by the energy that is consistently there when he is in the game and his "Win over everything" mentality.

When we get a new coach I have a strange feeling that Dahntay will get some backup wing minutes every game, and they are well deserved.

Guy has a nice mid-range shot and can put it on the floor and score. We know he brings energy and decent defense. Agree that he needs to be reigned in at times from pounding the rock, but I definitely agree.

Pacersalltheway10
01-29-2011, 12:03 AM
JOB probably knew he was really on the hot seat if they lost tonight so he probably tryed to win by as much as he could to make himself look good.....

xIndyFan
01-29-2011, 12:38 AM
dahntay jones is one of those players who the less they play, the better they look.

some guys are like that. dahntay is a good guy, always always plays hard, good defender, athletic, strong, but he is a black hole that puts tyler to shame and most important . . . he is a shooting guard that can't.

CableKC
01-29-2011, 01:07 AM
No he didn't it would have been a perfect chance for him to get his feet wet tonight
How would we know if it would have been a good chance for him to play?

There was no way that we'd have known that we'd have had such as lead that Lance would have had a chance of getting his feet wet in the first place.

There was as good of a chance that we'd have blown it against the Nets as there would have been of us winning it.

However, I agree that it would have been better to sit Inferno over Lance.

cdash
01-29-2011, 01:22 AM
I have absolutely no problem with this. Then again, I'm not the type who goes around looking for things to complain about in a 30 point win.

pacer4ever
01-29-2011, 01:24 AM
I have absolutely no problem with this. Then again, I'm not the type who goes around looking for things to complain about in a 30 point win.

see 2mrw when Dunleavy and Granger are playing tiered then u might have a problem. What was the point of them playing in the 4th or the 2nd half of the 3rd?

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 01:30 AM
see 2mrw when Dunleavy and Granger are playing tiered then u might have a problem. What was the point of them playing in the 4th or the 2nd half of the 3rd?

That they've been playing in the NBA much longer than Paul George and they're more prepared to handle heavy minutes, and be aware of how to handle it tomorrow. Same approach he's taken with Tyler when he started playing. He said so in an interview.

It actually makes sense.

Hicks
01-29-2011, 01:45 AM
I was wondering why we get to see Dahntay with 5 minutes left in a blowout instead of Lance. That is backwards. What was the point in having DJ active?

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 01:57 AM
I was wondering why we get to see Dahntay with 5 minutes left in a blowout instead of Lance. That is backwards. What was the point in having DJ active?

Without Rush we're thinner at the wing. Which means you've got Paul, Granger and Dunleavy you want to play, but a single injury during a game there would force you to either play Lance, or to play a 2 PG lineup. We don't have the depth to allow us to carry a guy just to hope we have a chance for him in garbage time. We'd be one twisted ankle from needing to play him.

Hicks
01-29-2011, 02:03 AM
But that's just it: We didn't use DJ, we used AJ, as our 4th wing. So AJ was Rush's 'replacement'. DJ was active.... because.

And let's not act like Lance can't be a SG. Heck, he's more of a SG than AJ.

cdash
01-29-2011, 02:09 AM
see 2mrw when Dunleavy and Granger are playing tiered then u might have a problem. What was the point of them playing in the 4th or the 2nd half of the 3rd?

Granger played 25 minutes. Dunleavy played 30. If they are tired, then they are freaking sissies.

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 02:11 AM
AJ as the SG can work in small chunks of time. Not in long stretches.

I think you're making this decision based on knowing it's going to be a blowout. You don't know that when you make the decision though. To give the full scope, here's a few questions, answer them (to yourself if nothing else) and see what you come up with.

Your team is on a losing streak, and in need of a win badly. Let's just envision this game goes down to the wire, and you have an injury to Granger before halftime. You need a 3rd wing for several minutes in the 2nd half as the other team's lineup doesn't allow you to use to use a 2 PG lineup effectively. Do you really want that 3rd wing who's going to play several minutes to be a veteran who's been a starter on a very good playoff team, or do you want to have to risk that player being a guy with holes in his game, who will also have problems with his nerves in his 1st time on the floor?

Not knowing it's going to be a blowout, makes the answer pretty easy for me. You have to make these decisions based on worst case scenario's and just hope it doesn't become that.

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 02:22 AM
....... Or maybe it's easy for me because I just don't believe in Lance. :laugh:

I'm willing to entertain that possibility.

CableKC
01-29-2011, 02:34 AM
I was wondering why we get to see Dahntay with 5 minutes left in a blowout instead of Lance. That is backwards. What was the point in having DJ active?
Off the top of my head.....JO'B views Lance as a PG....and if we need a 3rd PG...we have TJ whose a better PG ( not that I disagree ).

But this is misguided if you ask me...if JO'B is willing to run 2 PGs at the same time with some combination of DC/AJ/TJ and Lance is considered as much of a PG as he is a SG ( which most of us think he is )....then why can't we see Lance be used as a PG on the floor at the same time with DC or AJ?

thefeistyone
01-29-2011, 09:18 AM
So the Pacers are up by 26 in the 4th and you guys still have something to complain about.....


I would think this would be something we'd want to savor a little bit. It only happens about twice a season. Who really cares if D Jones got in the game in garbage time. I could see complaining a bit if Lance had dressed and didn't get garbage minutes.

No amount of scrapping or good D is going to get him in JOB's rotation. He'll get in JOB's rotation the same way everyone else does...without logic or reason. He'll never see it coming.

D-BONE
01-29-2011, 09:30 AM
If he's not dressed he can't play. If he's really any good he'll get his chance sooner or later under JOB or somebody else. Assuming his off the court foibles don't derail his career that is.

Here's looking forward to our next game with NJ!

BlueNGold
01-29-2011, 09:55 AM
I could be proven wrong, but I've said many times that Lance is not playing until there is a verdict in his case. This is an easy call folks.

As for Dahntay, have you seen some of the verbal jabs to the media he's made at Jim over the last couple years. Indirect and passive aggressive IMO. That is why Dahntay is not playing much. That and the fact he cannot shoot the basketball.

But make no mistake. If Dahntay can contribute on a strong playoff team, he can contribute on a bottom feeder like the Pacers. This issue with Dahntay not playing has everything to do with Jim O'Brien.

Don't get me wrong, Dahntay is not the savior for this team. He has limited skills. He's just a piece of the puzzle that can be used in certain situations like keeping a player like Monte Ellis from blowing up for 40 points. But Jim refuses to play him due to...IMHO Dahntay's tendency to talk to the press.

Tom White
01-29-2011, 09:57 AM
You do know that Jim doesn't like guys that talk back.

Lester was another casualty...

I don't remember ever hearing this about either guy. Where did that info come from?

By the way, I'm not doubting what you are saying, I just never heard it before.

Tom White
01-29-2011, 10:00 AM
I have absolutely no problem with this. Then again, I'm not the type who goes around looking for things to complain about in a 30 point win.

I'm not "looking for something to complain about". I'm just trying to figure out why it is the way it is.

So, got anything to contribute other than trying to put me down?

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2011, 10:09 AM
But that's just it: We didn't use DJ, we used AJ, as our 4th wing. So AJ was Rush's 'replacement'. DJ was active.... because.

And let's not act like Lance can't be a SG. Heck, he's more of a SG than AJ.
I actually thought the overall minutes were FINALLY spread somewhat reasonably around in a blowout on night 1 of a back to back.

But I agree with this too. If Lance isn't going to Ft Wayne then you 100% have to dress him for this game and let that time be used to take a look. Otherwise just let him work on his game in the D-league.




RANT ON PLAYING TIME FOR LEARNING
And before you guys jump on the "you learn as much (or more) from the bench watching the pros", consider surgery when your option is a guy that has spent 17 hours performing surgeries vs the guy that's watched 17 hours of a really good doctor performing surgeries but never done a single one himself.

You learn the most from be exposed to it. The D-league hurts only because you are not being challenged by the most elite moves or defenders, but its not zilch either and not that far below the deep bench NBA guys you'd be facing anyway. Lance doesn't start day 1 trying to stop Wade.



BTW, BillS took the stance that it's fine to make mistakes but they are meaningless without someone to show you the correct way. I disagree. Plenty of people learn from their own mistakes, not every mistake is a mind boggler to figure out.

Stuff like "oh man, I bit that fake 3 times, but not a 4th" is something even Lance can handle on his own. In fact I'd question any NBA player that can't figure out how he got burned at least a little. Coaching can accelerate that for certain, but it's not an all or nothing situation here. Not to mention that the players have a little bit of insight themselves. Some guys even hear from their former coaches after a game for tips.



And the key is that you are a lot more receptive to understanding a solution, from yourself or others, once you've actually experienced the situation and mistake. And I don't just mean basketball.

When you have tried to think through a situation on your own you are much more capable of understanding the explanation of how it should be handled than if you've never done it. Your brain just gets a better layout of the land. It's like driving someplace vs being the passenger, you'll remember the route better if you drive.

Once you face the problem someone explained to you before you'd ever seen it you'll often say "oh, THAT'S why you told me to be careful of X, now I get it". It's much tougher to just get it from being told the first time.

LoneGranger33
01-29-2011, 10:10 AM
I could be proven wrong, but I've said many times that Lance is not playing until there is a verdict in his case.

That was my feeling too. I figured the Pacers would wait for some sort of resolution to his legal issues before having him log any minutes - but that was before the October court date was pushed back. I don't know if they will change course on that decision now, but they don't really need another PG or SG. I'd like to see if he's worth the trouble at some point, but I wouldn't be upset if TPTB continued what they are seemingly doing.

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2011, 10:13 AM
I could be proven wrong, but I've said many times that Lance is not playing until there is a verdict in his case. This is an easy call folks.
Solid point. My only thing here is again send him up the road to Ft Wayne rather than have him in a Pacers uniform.

UNLESS...maybe mgmt likes to keep him on a short leash for his own protection against further problems. Honestly that does make a lot of sense to me. Being with the team is them teaching him how to be a pro and how to stay out of trouble, while also keeping a close eye on him to keep him out of that trouble.

That means he is in a learning situation, we just don't see the lessons.

BlueNGold
01-29-2011, 10:18 AM
I don't remember ever hearing this about either guy. Where did that info come from?

By the way, I'm not doubting what you are saying, I just never heard it before.

It's always a challenge to dredge up quotes, but here goes. This one is from earlier this season after a game against Boston in an article titled "Jim O'Brien's moves are baffling". It is the type of statement Dahntay makes to the media, basically questioning Jim's strategy IMHO:

http://www.indy.com/posts/kravitz-jim-o-brien-s-moves-are-baffling
Source: Indy.com

The game changed in the fourth quarter when former Pacer Marquis Daniels was used as Boston’s point guard. Time after time, Daniels posted up either T.J. Ford or Darren Collison, two smaller players, and time after time he either scored or got to the basket, drew the help and passed it to an open shooter.

So, how did O’Brien deal with the mismatch?

He didn’t.

He thought about Dahntay Jones or Mike Dunleavy on Daniels, but in the end, he stayed put.

“Did you think Jim might put you in to cover Daniels?’’ I asked Jones.
He shook his head.
“Nope. Jim was going to stick to his script and gut it out,‘’ Jones said in matter-of-fact fashion.


So, what do you think Kravitz is implying about the way Jones made this statement? IMO, Kravitz used the quote to imply that Jim was too stubborn to change to a more appropriate strategy AND that D Jones felt that way.

BTW, D Jones made statements to the press after the 5 game win streak basically saying that he knew why the team won during that stretch...and left it at that....IMO taking a shot at Murphy and indirectly JOb...

BlueNGold
01-29-2011, 10:23 AM
Solid point. My only thing here is again send him up the road to Ft Wayne rather than have him in a Pacers uniform.

UNLESS...maybe mgmt likes to keep him on a short leash for his own protection against further problems. Honestly that does make a lot of sense to me. Being with the team is them teaching him how to be a pro and how to stay out of trouble, while also keeping a close eye on him to keep him out of that trouble.

That means he is in a learning situation, we just don't see the lessons.

I agree it would be nice to get him on the court, even if it's in Ft. Wayne. However, Lance is young and has time. A few months are not going to matter. Once he's cleared, then go forward with a clean slate.

Also, if he goes to Ft. Wayne they may have less control/guidance over him and it's no telling what might happen. I think they see him as an investment and they want to help him mature as a person. He's basically a project both on and off the court...and if that project is running around Ft. Wayne and elsewhere they will not be as able to influence him.

SMosley21
01-29-2011, 11:31 AM
JOB was classless bringing there starters back when the game was clearly over. The nets starters - Favors sat out most of the 2nd half. It is an un written rule that u dont do that.

Tell that to the Celtics.

90'sNBARocked
01-29-2011, 12:10 PM
That was my feeling too. I figured the Pacers would wait for some sort of resolution to his legal issues before having him log any minutes - but that was before the October court date was pushed back. I don't know if they will change course on that decision now, but they don't really need another PG or SG. I'd like to see if he's worth the trouble at some point, but I wouldn't be upset if TPTB continued what they are seemingly doing.

I doubt its that, If it was it would be much easier to assign him to the D league, out of nap and the public eye

BlueNGold
01-29-2011, 12:16 PM
BTW, if Lance is convicted he faces a minimum of a 7 year prison sentence. No, I don't think he will be convicted but imagine if that happens and the Pacers had him on the court it would be bad PR again...and even worse if he plays well and becomes more visible.

The trial is also something that will hang over him while he attempts to play. Not a good thing for the mindset IMO.

In contrast, a little patience provides a chance at avoiding most of the PR. If the case is dismissed, they celebrate and get him out on the court with a new lease on life. Very positive at that point. Just a short wait is all it takes....all while we are very deep on the wing anyway.

Trophy
01-29-2011, 12:23 PM
I can't believe we're in this situation again.

I want Lance to be a better person like everyone else on this team.

He's a nice guy who has potential to be a decent rotation player.

BillS
01-29-2011, 01:34 PM
You have to deactivate 3. Tyler and Rush were out because of illness/injury. If you want Lance activate just in case we're ahead and he can play, who do you deactivate? Posey and risk shorting yourself on PFs (yes, I know the argument that he is really a slow SF, but that isn't how he is used)? S Jones and be in trouble if Josh and Roy get into foul trouble? D Jones and get called for not giving him any more chances to play?

Having the late second round guy on the inactive list is not something most coaches would tend to think twice about.

90'sNBARocked
01-29-2011, 01:45 PM
You have to deactivate 3. Tyler and Rush were out because of illness/injury. If you want Lance activate just in case we're ahead and he can play, who do you deactivate? Posey and risk shorting yourself on PFs (yes, I know the argument that he is really a slow SF, but that isn't how he is used)? S Jones and be in trouble if Josh and Roy get into foul trouble? D Jones and get called for not giving him any more chances to play?

Having the late second round guy on the inactive list is not something most coaches would tend to think twice about.

He deserves a shot to play, in my opinion

We lost 6 games ina row, 17 out of our last 23

Clearly the players playing were not getting it done

We are not a Veteran team prepared to make a deep run in the playoffs

We are one of the youngest teams in the league, currently in a rebuilding mode (yet again)

Lance was tearing it up in the summer league and gave us fans hope

It is complete hypocrisy, that every other player has played but Lance cant even get one minute to at least say he has been in an NBA game

I know your thoughts on Jim, and I respect the right to differ, but to me

Jim is an arrogant piece of human garbage, and I will literally fall to my knees and thank God they day I hear he is gone

Sookie
01-29-2011, 01:48 PM
Solid point. My only thing here is again send him up the road to Ft Wayne rather than have him in a Pacers uniform.

UNLESS...maybe mgmt likes to keep him on a short leash for his own protection against further problems. Honestly that does make a lot of sense to me. Being with the team is them teaching him how to be a pro and how to stay out of trouble, while also keeping a close eye on him to keep him out of that trouble.

That means he is in a learning situation, we just don't see the lessons.

It also probably humbles him. Apparently the entire team was serenading him with Cameo's "Candy" for a few days :laugh:

But as I said, he's low on the depth chart (4th pg, 7th SG..behind two point guards..apparently) And..knowing O'brien, I can't believe that he's there because of defense.

My guess is we don't want a PR disaster.

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 01:55 PM
Lance was tearing it up in the summer league and gave us fans hope

People really need to let go of this. In summer league Paul George shot 33% from the field too. He also made 3 out of 26 from 3 point range as well. Now he's leading the team with 49% from the field. Luke Harangody averaged 16 PPG in summer league and made 9 of 18 three's. How's that working out?

Summer league means squat. I just don't understand how people can put major stock in summer league, but ignore that Lance stunk in preseason.

90'sNBARocked
01-29-2011, 02:01 PM
People really need to let go of this. In summer league Paul George shot 33% from the field too. He also made 3 out of 26 from 3 point range as well. Now he's leading the team with 49% from the field. Luke Harangody averaged 16 PPG in summer league and made 9 of 18 three's. How's that working out?

Summer league means squat. I just don't understand how people can put major stock in summer league, but ignore that Lance stunk in preseason.

Its not "major stock" it was that he played very well ,and gave the Pacer fans something to get excited about

Hicks
01-29-2011, 02:09 PM
D Jones and get called for not giving him any more chances to play?


Get called by whom?

Hicks
01-29-2011, 02:10 PM
Summer league means squat. I just don't understand how people can put major stock in summer league, but ignore that Lance stunk in preseason.

As if the preseason is a great barometer. Especially when it's a rookie.

cdash
01-29-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm not "looking for something to complain about". I'm just trying to figure out why it is the way it is.

So, got anything to contribute other than trying to put me down?

It certainly looked like complaining, and the responses in the thread certainly seemed that way too. I wasn't singling you out, it was more of a reaction to the rest of the thread. It does come across as putting you down. I apologize.

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 02:17 PM
As if the preseason is a great barometer. Especially when it's a rookie.

It's against NBA competition, with actual plays being called.

Summer league is against guys working at Wal-Mart now and without any practice time to install an offense or plays. It's essentially a pickup game.

I'd say preseason is a much better gauge than summer league. By far.

Hicks
01-29-2011, 02:21 PM
The problem is you go from "well, the talented guys SHOULD kill these bums" in summer league to "it's a brand new rookie suddenly expected to perform against guys as good or better than him, most of which have years of experience in the league". So while I don't disagree that preseason presents much better opposition, and yes you're with your team and coach, at the same time it's not so great for evaluating young players either because it's a lot of new and difficult changes for them, and it would be unwise to expect instant success.

Judging them in either situation can be misleading.

What I like about summer league is it allows you to see more of the tools the player is working with. It doesn't tell you if they can use those tools in the big leagues, but at least you know they're there.

Sookie
01-29-2011, 02:26 PM
It's against NBA competition, with actual plays being called.

Summer league is against guys working at Wal-Mart now and without any practice time to install an offense or plays. It's essentially a pickup game.

I'd say preseason is a much better gauge than summer league. By far.

Honestly, in preseason there was a noticable difference between Lance running the point and Lance playing the SG position. I really think that's a huge problem for Lance. Anyone think that DC, AJ and TJ have a problem scoring against Lance? My guess is that they run right around him. How about dribbling it up the floor with those three pressuring him?

Then add in the fact that this is a "smart players" offense, and my impression of Lance is that his bball IQ isn't the highest. The PG position..even though it's not traditional, in this system isn't going to work for him.

And that said, Lance is a ball dominant SG, who doesn't spread the floor. And he's not a good defender. That sounds like a guy that's not going to be given too many opportunities in JOB's offense.

With Lance, he's clearly a very talanted pick up game player. I don't know if that'll translate in the NBA. But it certainly showed in summer league.

Hicks
01-29-2011, 02:30 PM
I think the ball pressure concern is overrated. He's so much bigger, and he knows it, and he got around it by positioning his body between the ball and his man. I don't think that'll be a significant issue for very long, if it even is.

90'sNBARocked
01-29-2011, 02:40 PM
I think had Lance not gotten into any trouble people would be chomping at the bit to see Lance play

and for the record summer league is not a "bunch of guys who work at Wal-mart"

they are players that have played at high collegiate level, some will go over seas, some will make an NBA roster, others will get cut

to act like Lance playing very well against scrubs is ludicrous.


If anything its a testimonial to lance's game to play well against men that were older and more experienced. some people act like summer league s against the local ymca req league

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 02:49 PM
What I like about summer league is it allows you to see more of the tools the player is working with. It doesn't tell you if they can use those tools in the big leagues, but at least you know they're there.

....... so it shows you .... nothing. :hmm:

If they can't use those 'tools' in the NBA, then are they really tools? You just explained why summer league means nothing.

In preaseaon Paul George struggled shooting, but he did other things. He rebounded the ball, he played defense, got steals. He showed you that he belonged on an NBA court.

Lance did none of that. He showed he could hold the ball too long, and looked disinterested without it. He played marginally better when he wasn't playing PG, but nothing I saw looked like he belonged. Which is what I look for most in a young player. Yet in summer league they just gave him the ball and sent him out there. Just like a game at Rucker Park. There should be no confusion on why he looked good in that situation.

BillS
01-29-2011, 04:14 PM
Get called by whom?


D. Jones still can't get in the game?

What the heck is wrong with this picture?

One example...