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diamonddave00
01-28-2011, 03:14 PM
conrad_brunner Conrad Brunner
Countdown to Tipoff Update: Hansbrough to miss tonight's game with pneumonia. http://on.nba.com/f3OoLZ

BringJackBack
01-28-2011, 03:15 PM
Dammit. :mad:

pizza guy
01-28-2011, 03:15 PM
Hope he recovers quickly and comes right back to the starting lineup. Does this mean we'll see McRoberts, or does Posey get the start at PF?

Unclebuck
01-28-2011, 03:16 PM
Josh will be back in the starting lineup

Trophy
01-28-2011, 03:16 PM
At least it's an illness and not an injury.

Hopefully it's not a more severe case of pneumonia that would keep him out more than one game.

Once again, Josh goes from inactive to starter.

SMosley21
01-28-2011, 03:30 PM
At least it's an illness and not an injury.

Hopefully it's not a more severe case of pneumonia that would keep him out more than one game.

Once again, Josh goes from inactive to starter.

I'm not going to complain. At least Josh is starting and not Posey. I'm sure no one on here would prefer that.

Hopefully Tyler only misses 1 game because we have a busy week ahead of us. The Pacers have 5 games between tonight and next Friday.

diamonddave00
01-28-2011, 03:35 PM
I'd like to see Lance Stephenson get some time with Rush out. Guessing Hansbrough misses at least tonight and tomorrows game meaning more Granger minutes at pf . Hope with Hans out and DG at pf Lance can get a few minutes at sg. Just not a D. Jones fan I'd rather see what Lance can do in limited minutes.

Unclebuck
01-28-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm not going to complain. At least Josh is starting and not Posey. I'm sure no one on here would prefer that.

Hopefully Tyler only misses 1 game because we have a busy week ahead of us. The Pacers have 5 games between tonight and next Friday.

I'm not a doctor but pneumonia isn't a one day thing. He'll be out at least tomorrow too

Speed
01-28-2011, 03:38 PM
I just realized how relatively healthy this club has been and they've still sucked.

SMosley21
01-28-2011, 03:40 PM
I'm not a doctor but pneumonia isn't a one day thing. He'll be out at least tomorrow too

True, but you never know with a diagnosis from our medical staff. For all we know it could've started yesterday and it's just a 24 hour bug.

Wishful thinking :buddies:

Unclebuck
01-28-2011, 03:42 PM
I just realized how relatively healthy this club has been and they've still sucked.

Pacers have not been this healthy in probably 15-20 years. if the second half is like the first half I think this is the healthiest the pacers have been since I started watching the team 30 years ago

90'sNBARocked
01-28-2011, 03:42 PM
I wonder if Lance will be active. With two players out that means Obie can dress all but one player

Justin Tyme
01-28-2011, 04:12 PM
Pacers have not been this healthy in probably 15-20 years. if the second half is like the first half I think this is the healthiest the pacers have been since I started watching the team 30 years ago



I sure hope you didn't put a curse on the Pacers. It's like an annoucer saying player X has hit 12 FT in a row, and then player X misses the his next FT.

Justin Tyme
01-28-2011, 04:25 PM
I'd rather have Dahntay playing over Stephenson. I don't want to get ill by having to see Stephenson playing in a Pacers uni.

righteouscool
01-28-2011, 04:26 PM
I just realized how relatively healthy this club has been and they've still sucked.

If only that could rub off on the other indianapolis team.

presto123
01-28-2011, 04:37 PM
Yay! My guess is Josh will play better than Tyler has been.

vnzla81
01-28-2011, 04:41 PM
Yep Josh Will start but Posey Will take must of the minutes, nice.
Can't wait to see the amazing line up with Posey and Mike at the same time:puke: ....

ilive4sports
01-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Yay! My guess is Josh will play better than Tyler has been.

He's gonna go for 20 and 10? I doubt it.

vnzla81
01-28-2011, 04:50 PM
He's gonna go for 20 and 10? I doubt it.

27 and 10 to be exactly ;) and I agree

presto123
01-28-2011, 04:58 PM
He's gonna go for 20 and 10? I doubt it.


When does Tyler ever go for 20 and 10? I think Josh can manage 7 points and 4 boards if he gets 20 minutes which he won't. But c'mon....you have to admit Tyler hasn't been playing that well in a while. Josh deserves to play.

vnzla81
01-28-2011, 05:00 PM
When does Tyler ever go for 20 and 10? I think Josh can manage 7 points and 4 boards if he gets 20 minutes which he won't. But c'mon....you have to admit Tyler hasn't been playing that well in a while. Josh deserves to play.

Tyler had 27 and 10 two games ago, what do you mean in a while?

spazzxb
01-28-2011, 05:01 PM
Yep Josh Will start but Posey Will take must of the minutes, nice.
Can't wait to see the amazing line up with Posey and Mike at the same time:puke: ....

He will probably play but he never takes most of the minutes. I expect to see Danny at the 4 like always. What I am curious about is what other options do you think the team has tonight?

presto123
01-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Tyler had 27 and 10 two games ago, what do you mean in a while?


Oh...so you're going to take his best game for Josh to measure up to. He's only averaging 7 and 4. And yes most games lately he hasn't been all that great. I didn't say there wasn't an exception here and there. But he's definitely dropped way off since everybody was all over him a month ago.

SMosley21
01-28-2011, 05:08 PM
When does Tyler ever go for 20 and 10? I think Josh can manage 7 points and 4 boards if he gets 20 minutes which he won't. But c'mon....you have to admit Tyler hasn't been playing that well in a while. Josh deserves to play.

Do you even watch the games? Tyler just had 27 & 10 2 games ago @ Denver, and he had 23 & 12 on San Antonio a few weeks ago. In the month of January he's averaging 12 & 6 in 23 minutes per.

spazzxb
01-28-2011, 05:11 PM
Oh...so you're going to take his best game for Josh to measure up to. He's only averaging 7 and 4. And yes most games lately he hasn't been all that great. I didn't say there wasn't an exception here and there. But he's definitely dropped way off since everybody was all over him a month ago.

Tyler has only been in the rotation for about 20 days.

vnzla81
01-28-2011, 05:13 PM
He will probably play but he never takes most of the minutes. I expect to see Danny at the 4 like always. What I am curious about is what other options do you think the team has tonight?

I actually don't mind Danny at the four for few minutes. And to your question, I would play PG more minutes and either Lance or DJ, at PF I would play Josh for more than 15 minutes with Danny and maybe give Posey some minutes here and there(no more than 10min).

presto123
01-28-2011, 05:19 PM
Do you even watch the games? Tyler just had 27 & 10 2 games ago @ Denver, and he had 23 & 12 on San Antonio a few weeks ago. In the month of January he's averaging 12 & 6 in 23 minutes per.


Of coarse I watch. Double Josh's minutes in January and it would be about 8 and 6. Not a huge drop off and personally I think the offense flows better with Josh out there as he is a better passer. Tyler has not been that good defensively lately so you can't go there. I like his energy but Josh deserves to play bottom line.

SMosley21
01-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Of coarse I watch. Double Josh's minutes in January and it would be about 8 and 6. Not a huge drop off and personally I think the offense flows better with Josh out there as he is a better passer. Tyler has not been that good defensively lately so you can't go there. I like his energy but Josh deserves to play bottom line.

No one said he shouldn't play but he's not as good as Tyler and when given the opportunity he didn't put up the type of numbers that Tyler has, bottom line.

presto123
01-28-2011, 05:23 PM
No one said he shouldn't play but he's not as good as Tyler and when given the opportunity he didn't put up the type of numbers that Tyler has, bottom line.


We'll agree to disagree there. We were winning way more when Josh was in the lineup and that is the only stat I need. What have we been doing the last month? Losing. No I'm not putting that on Tyler. But part of this I think goes back to what I said about the offense moving better.

xBulletproof
01-28-2011, 05:38 PM
Oh...so you're going to take his best game for Josh to measure up to. He's only averaging 7 and 4. And yes most games lately he hasn't been all that great. I didn't say there wasn't an exception here and there. But he's definitely dropped way off since everybody was all over him a month ago.

As Starter:

Hansbrough - 23 minutes - 12.2 points, 6 rebounds

McRoberts - 22 minutes - 6.5 points, 5.4 rebounds

So how about we hold him to that standard? Either way, how has Tyler 'dropped way off'? In the last 4 games he's averaged 14.2 points, and 6.2 rebounds, on 51% shooting.

SMosley21
01-28-2011, 05:50 PM
We'll agree to disagree there. We were winning way more when Josh was in the lineup and that is the only stat I need. What have we been doing the last month? Losing. No I'm not putting that on Tyler. But part of this I think goes back to what I said about the offense moving better.


I'm sure Josh being in the rotation had waaaay more of an impact on us winning games than the fact that Roy Hibbert was playing like an All-Star caliber C.

:rolleyes:

presto123
01-28-2011, 05:56 PM
As Starter:

Hansbrough - 23 minutes - 12.2 points, 6 rebounds

McRoberts - 22 minutes - 6.5 points, 5.4 rebounds

So how about we hold him to that standard? Either way, how has Tyler 'dropped way off'? In the last 4 games he's averaged 14.2 points, and 6.2 rebounds, on 51% shooting.


Take that high game out and that's about a 9 point average
Like I said. We win way more with Josh in the lineup. Don't need stats. The offense moves better and our offense has definitely regressed in the last month.

SMosley21
01-28-2011, 06:01 PM
Take that high game out and that's about a 9 point average
Like I said. We win way more with Josh in the lineup. Don't need stats. The offense moves better and our offense has definitely regressed in the last month.

Actually if you eliminate Tyler's 27 & 10 game, he still averages 10.5 & 5.5 rebounds as a starter.

And again, Roy Hibbert was the driving force behind us winning game early in the season, not Josh.

xBulletproof
01-28-2011, 06:07 PM
Take that high game out and that's about a 9 point average
Like I said. We win way more with Josh in the lineup. Don't need stats. The offense moves better and our offense has definitely regressed in the last month.

Yes, if if if. If you took away the big runs, Barry Sanders sucks too. You can't take those away though, they happened. 9 PPG is still a 50% increase over McRoberts. Regardless McRoberts was starting in December and the Pacers averaged 93.4 PPG and had 5 wins with 11 losses. In January with Hansbrough starting they're averaging 98.2 PPG.

Actually the truth is we win more when Hibbert is playing more like Rik Smits than Michael Olowakandi and when Granger is playing closer to Pippen on defense than Kevin Martin. Josh or Tyler is of no consequence to whether this team is winning or losing, truthfully.

ilive4sports
01-28-2011, 06:10 PM
Take that high game out and that's about a 9 point average
Like I said. We win way more with Josh in the lineup. Don't need stats. The offense moves better and our offense has definitely regressed in the last month.

We were winning more with Josh in the line up because of Hibbert playing like a top center in the league. No way has Josh played better than Hansbrough. Come on dude. Josh does help the flow of the offense, but Tyler starting isn't why we are losing. What about the month of December when we sucked? Josh was still starting.

Hansbrough has been more productive for us. No doubt about it. He took over the starting PF spot in our game against the Spurs and put up 23 points and 12 boards in that game. As a starter he averages twice the amount of points as McRoberts and more rebounds. You can't just take the high game out. It happened. Hansbrough has a much higer ceiling than McRoberts and is a better player today. McRoberts should come off the bench and back him up, but we don't play any better with McRoberts than we do with Tyler. What about the pick n roll with Collison? Can't do it with McRoberts. Thats been one of the good things we have seen this month, that Tyler can do it.

presto123
01-28-2011, 06:19 PM
We were winning more with Josh in the line up because of Hibbert playing like a top center in the league. No way has Josh played better than Hansbrough. Come on dude. Josh does help the flow of the offense, but Tyler starting isn't why we are losing. What about the month of December when we sucked? Josh was still starting.

Hansbrough has been more productive for us. No doubt about it. He took over the starting PF spot in our game against the Spurs and put up 23 points and 12 boards in that game. As a starter he averages twice the amount of points as McRoberts and more rebounds. You can't just take the high game out. It happened. Hansbrough has a much higer ceiling than McRoberts and is a better player today. McRoberts should come off the bench and back him up, but we don't play any better with McRoberts than we do with Tyler. What about the pick n roll with Collison? Can't do it with McRoberts. Thats been one of the good things we have seen this month, that Tyler can do it.

If you want to say he's a better player today that's fine. But a higher ceiling? I feel that Josh could become a very good 3 point shooter something Tyler can't do. And you can't coach athleticism. Josh is way ahead there. If he works on his game and his defense I feel Josh has the higher ceiling.

ilive4sports
01-28-2011, 06:52 PM
If you want to say he's a better player today that's fine. But a higher ceiling? I feel that Josh could become a very good 3 point shooter something Tyler can't do. And you can't coach athleticism. Josh is way ahead there. If he works on his game and his defense I feel Josh has the higher ceiling.

Josh isn't all that more athletic than Tyler. Look at what Tyler did in pre draft work outs. Plus Josh doesn't have the same drive and work ethic that Tyler does. The only thing that Josh does better than Tyler is shoot the 3. And quite frankly I don't want my PF to shoot the 3. Tyler has a much better mid range shot, which is way more important than a 3 point shot. Tyler is and will be a better player than McRoberts.

graphic-er
01-28-2011, 07:08 PM
One as to wonder how a guy gets pneumonia after just playing the 2 days ago. I mean usually that particular illness creeps up on you as something else first.

graphic-er
01-28-2011, 07:11 PM
As Starter:

Hansbrough - 23 minutes - 12.2 points, 6 rebounds

McRoberts - 22 minutes - 6.5 points, 5.4 rebounds

So how about we hold him to that standard? Either way, how has Tyler 'dropped way off'? In the last 4 games he's averaged 14.2 points, and 6.2 rebounds, on 51% shooting.

you know these stats are misleading because in 1 minute of PT Josh could potentially hit two 3's and grab a rebound. :laugh:

xBulletproof
01-28-2011, 07:11 PM
Maybe I'm just paranoid as ****, but am I wrong to fear vertigo again?

He did catch a shot to the head the other day.

Sookie
01-28-2011, 07:23 PM
Maybe I'm just paranoid as ****, but am I wrong to fear vertigo again?

He did catch a shot to the head the other day.

I don't think vertigo and pneumonia have similar symptoms.

I would guess this has more to do with Roy's sickness.

xBulletproof
01-28-2011, 07:40 PM
I don't think vertigo and pneumonia have similar symptoms.

I would guess this has more to do with Roy's sickness.

It wouldn't be the first time I thought a team falsified the reason a player didn't play. Just worries me it coincides with a hit to the head.

vnzla81
01-28-2011, 08:10 PM
According to whoever is the guy on tv Tyler wanted to play today and he was ready to play but the doctors told him to wait until tomorrow.

presto123
01-28-2011, 08:18 PM
Josh isn't all that more athletic than Tyler. Look at what Tyler did in pre draft work outs. Plus Josh doesn't have the same drive and work ethic that Tyler does. The only thing that Josh does better than Tyler is shoot the 3. And quite frankly I don't want my PF to shoot the 3. Tyler has a much better mid range shot, which is way more important than a 3 point shot. Tyler is and will be a better player than McRoberts.


Isn't more athletic? I want some of that stuff you're smoking.

Shabazz
01-28-2011, 08:54 PM
Get well soon Tyler!

Shabazz
01-28-2011, 08:56 PM
Tyler is and will be a better player than McRoberts.


Well, yeah. That was settled back in early 2006 and O'Brien is the only one who didn't get that memo.

Eleazar
01-28-2011, 09:19 PM
This team wasn't winning just because McRoberts was playing. They were winning because Hibbert was playing well, and because BOTH McRoberts and Hansbrough were playing. We are losing now because Hibbert hasn't been playing well and because only McRoberts OR Hansbrough have been playing. That is only the surface. You also have to take into consideration how JOB was using McRoberts, the drop off in minutes McRoberts received, how well McRoberts plays with Hibbert, and how well Hansbrough plays with Collison.



edit: After reading that again it was terribly written, I guess that just goes to show how frustrated I am with this Tyler vs Josh crap. I fixed the worst offenders, but it is still a terrible piece of writing that I just don't care enough to re-write correctly.

CircleCity3318
01-28-2011, 09:30 PM
Chris and Quinn stated that he was already in Chicago and may be able to play tomorrow night.

O'Braindead
01-28-2011, 09:46 PM
Well, yeah. That was settled back in early 2006 and O'Brien is the only one who didn't get that memo.

:duh: :rant: :soundoff: :banghead:

Let me lay this out for you since you still don't get it:

-That was five years ago.
-Josh was 18-19
-Tyler was 20-21
-This is the NBA
-College is different from the NBA
-How would you feel if Tyler cried during a game instead of Josh? What excuse would you come up with?

UNC homerism won't let you understand the fact that both Josh and Tyler can be cohesive, hard working, rotation players in the NBA and they really should both be sharing minutes at the power forward spot. Why in the heavens must they be compared? What will it take for you, and other UNC fans, to understand this? Can I please have a single and valid reason?

Please? :bananadea

Sookie
01-28-2011, 09:50 PM
This team wasn't winning just because McRoberts was winning. It was winning because Hibbert was playing well, and because BOTH McRoberts and Hansbrough were playing. We are losing now because Hibbert hasn't been playing well and because only McRoberts OR Hansbrough have been playing. That is only surface stuff to. You also have to take into consideration how JOB was using McRoberts, the drop off in minutes McRoberts received, how well McRoberts plays with Hibbert, and how well Hansbrough plays with Collison.

Correct, this isn't..and never was..a Tyler v. Josh thing..

They both should be playing. Josh plays well with Hibbert, helps the offense go. Hans plays well with DC, and scores. Both play much better D then Posey.

xBulletproof
01-28-2011, 09:56 PM
Isn't more athletic? I want some of that stuff you're smoking.

If you look at their draft combine workouts, Hansbrough was more athletic, actually. He beat him in every single workout, including vertical jump.

Eleazar
01-28-2011, 09:59 PM
If you look at their draft combine workouts, Hansbrough was more athletic, actually. He beat him in every single workout, including vertical jump.

I find those kind of workouts to be a poor way to judge athleticism. As well you have to consider that was 3 or 4 years ago for McRoberts.

xBulletproof
01-28-2011, 10:07 PM
I find those kind of workouts to be a poor way to judge athleticism. As well you have to consider that was 3 or 4 years ago for McRoberts.

I'm aware the difference in time, but if he was that much of an athlete you'd think it was open and shut. Just stating the facts though.

Regardless I think McRoberts athleticism is one of the most overrated things things about this roster. The only difference I see between Josh and Tyler when they go up with the ball is that Tyler uses both hands, and McRoberts uses one hand. Creates the illusion that you're getting higher than you really are. That and McRoberts is smoother looking, which makes him look more athletic than Tyler when I really think they're pretty even.

xIndyFan
01-28-2011, 10:36 PM
the big big big difference between josh and tyler is on the defensive end. watching josh tonight, he made the [mostly] correct rotations, correct pickups and played solid defense. tyler still isn't doing that. tyler is still a wanderer on defense.

tyler is a much better offensive player, but personally i am willing to put josh back in at the 4 and live with his poor offense. josh does enough extra things on offense, so i can live with fewer points.

edit: fwiw, i think the players are getting tired of tyler not knowing where to go. almost every interview contains someone talking about making better rotations.

judicata
01-28-2011, 11:54 PM
the big big big difference between josh and tyler is on the defensive end. watching josh tonight, he made the [mostly] correct rotations, correct pickups and played solid defense. tyler still isn't doing that. tyler is still a wanderer on defense.

tyler is a much better offensive player, but personally i am willing to put josh back in at the 4 and live with his poor offense. josh does enough extra things on offense, so i can live with fewer points.

edit: fwiw, i think the players are getting tired of tyler not knowing where to go. almost every interview contains someone talking about making better rotations.


There are 4 players that have entered the rotation in the last month or so.

Hicks
01-29-2011, 12:30 AM
Take that high game out and that's about a 9 point average

Also known as 'Remove some of the facts, and I look better.' Come on.

Hicks
01-29-2011, 12:34 AM
As to the athleticism comments, here's the deal:

Josh does not jump higher than Tyler.

Josh is longer than Tyler, more coordinated than Tyler, and I may be seeing things but I think he jumps up more quickly than Tyler, all of which make him seem much more 'athletic' than Tyler. I don't say that to dismiss it, because I think it's significant and anyone who watches the games can see that it is, I'm just saying it's not really the "Josh can jump, Tyler can't" argument some people think it is.

Pacerfan
01-29-2011, 01:13 AM
the big big big difference between josh and tyler is on the defensive end. watching josh tonight, he made the [mostly] correct rotations, correct pickups and played solid defense. tyler still isn't doing that. tyler is still a wanderer on defense.

tyler is a much better offensive player, but personally i am willing to put josh back in at the 4 and live with his poor offense. josh does enough extra things on offense, so i can live with fewer points.

edit: fwiw, i think the players are getting tired of tyler not knowing where to go. almost every interview contains someone talking about making better rotations.

I agree with you. Josh just usually seems to be in the right place defensively. I think he is much better suited with the starting line-up than Tyler. One thing I like better with Tyler are the pick and pops with Darren. Tyler's scoring and energy would fit in very well with the bench players...plus he does not have to defend the best players. It's not that he can't do it he just really needs to learn the defensive rotations....because that's a big problem right now.

presto123
01-29-2011, 01:26 AM
I wasn't meaning to imply that Josh is better than Tyler either. I like them both. I would call it a draw. They both bring different things to the table. But Posey getting Josh's minuted just sends me over the edge a little:)

spazzxb
01-29-2011, 01:33 AM
I wasn't meaning to imply that Josh is better than Tyler either. I like them both. I would call it a draw. They both bring different things to the table. But Posey getting Josh's minuted just sends me over the edge a little:)

What are your views on a potential Mcroberts/ Foster front-court?

xBulletproof
01-29-2011, 02:13 AM
I wasn't meaning to imply that Josh is better than Tyler either. I like them both. I would call it a draw. They both bring different things to the table. But Posey getting Josh's minuted just sends me over the edge a little:)

Same here.

When they play they both average 20+ minutes per. Guess what? There's 48 minutes in a game. They both can play, even. ;)

Ugh, O'Brien.

Peck
01-29-2011, 05:03 AM
Again with the Tyler vs. Josh crap. :rolleyes:

Tyler starts, Josh starts the other comes off the bench as the first big in. Who cares at this point in time which does what.

We just have got to get Bird to trade Posey so that O'Brien can not use him anymore and yes I understand that this is not really fair to James but it is what it is. As long as he is here we are never going to be able to have a real rotation at the four spot becuase of Jim's love/need/want of a stretch four.

I think Roy plays a little better with Josh, but obviously Tyler brings more of his own offense to the table.

If we had a coach who was not such a stubborn @ss we could see the combination of Tyler & Josh together almost every night and we would be better for it.

However I don't give a crap what happens from here forward except one thing.

Neither of these two players should ever be on the inactive list ever again barring injury or illness.

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2011, 10:08 AM
As Starter:

Hansbrough - 23 minutes - 12.2 points, 6 rebounds

McRoberts - 22 minutes - 6.5 points, 5.4 rebounds

So how about we hold him to that standard? Either way, how has Tyler 'dropped way off'? In the last 4 games he's averaged 14.2 points, and 6.2 rebounds, on 51% shooting.
I don't disagree with this...BUT

How about some other numbers since ball isn't just points and rebounds.

How about the fact that the minutes in those roles is not comparable, Josh is 693 min as starter, 15 not. Tyler is at 230 starter, 284 not. Why take less than half of one guys PT vs all of anothers...unless the overall total doesn't make the case as well for you perhaps.

I'm willing to look at it both ways. There's a lot here, but it's in sections for easy bathroom reading.


SCORING
First, Tyler has a problem being something of an Al Harrington, not really big on passing it away once he gets it. Thus you have these stats too...

FGA / FG PCT (adjusted for 3PM)
Tyler - 5.8 for .467 (.467)
Josh - 4.9 for .485 (.537)

Starter only
Tyler - 9.8 FGA for .500 (.500)
Josh - 5.1 FGA for .494 (.547)

Josh is a smarter, more reliable shooter. His points are lower because he doesn't try to score every time he touches the ball. Some of this is reflected in this next stat...

Assists
Tyler - 0.6
Josh - 2.1

Starter only
Tyler - 0.9
Josh - 2.3

Uh oh, black hole alert, you have a 10 to 1 FGA to assist ratio. Contrast with Josh's 2.2 FGA/ast ratio and tell me I'm wrong on this. It's not even close. You want ball movement and team offense, Josh is far superior in that regard right now. You want a shot taken even in bad spots and hopefully some fouls drawn, that's Tyler.

Josh is drastically a better passer, far better on outlet passes like the full court bomb on the dime to Dunleavy last night (Dun failed to convert it), and drastically better with his own dribble to bring it up court. There is no stat for that last one, it just f'ing helps and anyone who watches the sport should recognize this.

Number of games Tyler has ever had 5 assists in the NBA = 0. He's had 3 in 4 games over the 2 years, the last one coming in the Denver 20 for 20 game in 11-9-2010.

Josh just got 5 for the 5th time this year.



Then you have defense and Josh clearly has a vertical advantage. He's taller already and has better hops. You see that in the following stats...

Blocks - Steals
Tyler - 0.3/0.4
Josh - 0.9/0.7

Starter only
Tyler - 0.4/0.6
Josh - 0.9/0.7

Your starting PF can only muster a total of 1.0 blocks+steals. That's not exactly defending the rim now is it. Josh is giving you twice as many shot blocks, while also getting more steals.


INFO ON DEFENSE
You want some extra insider fuel on this one, here's something from the benchside seat. You know how post game Danny mentioned "guys not rotating". Well I can tell you who he meant explicitly, the guy he went off on twice during the game 5 feet in front of me - Tyler Hansbrough.

The first one came after the early Dwight dunk off the PnR, the weakside baseline guy (Tyler) is supposd to come over and he doesn't. On the game tape you can see Danny turn and start getting on Tyler about it, though if you weren't there you wouldn't know what was going on. This was from me hearing it happen. Tyler was catching such an earful that Collison is left waiting on someone to in-bound the ball. From off camera you see Tyler come running back down to bring it in. This was because he was busy being yelled at by Granger.

Later in the game they came to the huddle and Danny was ripping on him so mad it was like the verge of a fist fight. This happened shortly before Tyler had a dunk because my buddy and I suggested getting ripped on must have fired him up.

This is NOT speculation, this is me seeing it sitting right next to the bench. Tyler was blowing his rotations bad enough that Danny was losing his s***, period. I actually felt bad for Tyler, it was that intense. DG needed to cool it.


The only other guy I saw catch grief was Paul George, and that was from JOB about 2 minutes into Paul coming into the game. IMO this was way too harsh, too quickly from JOB and showed a bit about his patience for the kids. Paul was making an effort to understand, not backtalking and being an elite a-hole. Maybe try treating a guy like an adult first.





And one side bar that only shows equivalent impact. Neither guy is wrecking things with tons of fouls or TOs. But considering how much Josh passes and dribbles his TO rate is more impressive to me. Certainly his 1.5/1 ast/TO rate is not shabby for a PF.

TO/Fouls
Tyler - 0.8/2.2
Josh - 1.3/2.6

Starter only
Tyler - 1.4/2.9
Josh - 1.4/2.7




I'm not ANTI TYLER here, but if you are a person watching this team and you think Tyler = great, Josh = blah then you are 100% biased and/or delusional. IMO Josh has an overall better impact but Tyler has things he brings that Josh does't, including an improving mid-jumper as a primary scoring option.

Josh won't give you 27 points, but he also won't be taking more shots than anyone else on the team. Tyler won't be giving you 5 assists, ever, and probably not even 3-4. You need points, so there's nothing wrong with 17 FGA, especially if you hit 10. It's just a different role.

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2011, 10:15 AM
I think Roy plays a little better with Josh, but obviously Tyler brings more of his own offense to the table.
Totally agree, it's pretty obvious. This is why I like Tyler more off the bench. He can dominate the touches and give you the energy and offensive boost, while Josh helps the starters (primarily Roy) by moving the ball and helping at the rim.

It's retarded that this even is a debate. I'm always jocking Josh simply because he fills a valuable role and does it pretty well, but then gets kicked aside all the time by the coach.

It's been clear for more than a full season that you might have something solid with things like Josh-Tyler as your PF combo, working off Roy in the post, and having AJ as your 2nd PG. George works well as maybe the starting SG or the other 20-25 mpg guy off the bench at SF.

To me this is a good thing, the roster isn't that far off.
PG - DC/AJ
SG/SF - DG/PG/BR (esp with the defense of BR/PG combined)
PF - JM/TH
C - RH/Foster if you keep him, but Solo needs to improve or be replaced.

That rotation gives you lots of what you need, especially as Tyler, Paul and AJ learn their defensive roles more (and maybe the scheme is adjusted).


And instead we have to bicker about which PF should be doghoused, as if the coach is making a brilliant call not using either one at any point this year.

xIndyFan
01-29-2011, 10:23 AM
Again with the Tyler vs. Josh crap. :rolleyes:

jmo, but this whole year is a tyler vs josh situation. neither of these guys is the pacers long term answer at the 4. both of them look like guys that will be backup on a decent team that the pacers hope to become. that said, it seems obvious that they are playing for the backup PF position on next years team. the starter will be the player X that everyone hopes the pacers get either next month or next summer. josh and tyler are competing for the backup job. the other guy will be either looking for work, or taking solo's place. that's just the hard facts of the NBA pecking order.

neither guy has shown the combination of talent/skill that makes him anything other than a below average starting PF. if either of them can raise the level of their game significantly, great. but i just don't see enough god given talent to start on any kind of good team. if these guys are the starting/backup guys next year, the pacers will be in the same place they are now. drifting back and forth between the high lottery and the low playoffs. :shrug:

SMosley21
01-29-2011, 10:29 AM
INFO ON DEFENSE
You want some extra insider fuel on this one, here's something from the benchside seat. You know how post game Danny mentioned "guys not rotating". Well I can tell you who he meant explicitly, the guy he went off on twice during the game 5 feet in front of me - Tyler Hansbrough.

The first one came after the early Dwight dunk off the PnR, the weakside baseline guy (Tyler) is supposd to come over and he doesn't. On the game tape you can see Danny turn and start getting on Tyler about it, though if you weren't there you wouldn't know what was going on. This was from me hearing it happen. Tyler was catching such an earful that Collison is left waiting on someone to in-bound the ball. From off camera you see Tyler come running back down to bring it in. This was because he was busy being yelled at by Granger.

Later in the game they came to the huddle and Danny was ripping on him so mad it was like the verge of a fist fight. This happened shortly before Tyler had a dunk because my buddy and I suggested getting ripped on must have fired him up.

This is NOT speculation, this is me seeing it sitting right next to the bench. Tyler was blowing his rotations bad enough that Danny was losing his s***, period. I actually felt bad for Tyler, it was that intense. DG needed to cool it.

I actually noticed that from just below Area55. I pointed out to my buddy that I sit with how Danny was all over Tyler about something. At one point, Tyler tried to walk away and Danny grabbed him and stopped him to get on him some more. Thanks for the insight on exactly what it was about. It looked pretty brutal even from higher up in the stands.

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2011, 10:29 AM
I agree with you. Josh just usually seems to be in the right place defensively.
It's more than knowing where he is supposed to be. If you watch closely you'll see that often Josh is actually telling OTHER PEOPLE where they need to be. He knows the floor layout and rotations, and ditto for offense.

He calls for guys to use his screens or picks, motions guys to set up a backscreen off of someone else's screen first as in "Roy come screen Dun so I can screen your guy so he gets lost trying to switch to Dun and Dun gets the open shot".

You know what stat that goes under in Josh's box score? Nowhere. But it freaking helps a ton.

I'm sure that plenty of these are designed plays or schemes that Josh is just following, but the point is he gets them and implements them. It makes his DNPs even more questionable. You'd think JOB would like having a guy out there that knows the plan at both ends of the court.

Unless Josh is going rogue and it had good results which then ticks off JOB, but that's ultra-conspiracy level there. :)

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2011, 10:34 AM
I actually noticed that from just below Area55. I pointed out to my buddy that I sit with how Danny was all over Tyler about something. At one point, Tyler tried to walk away and Danny grabbed him and stopped him to get on him some more. Thanks for the insight on exactly what it was about. It looked pretty brutal even from higher up in the stands.
Shortly after that Collison kinda tried to defuse it by huddling the guys up. I haven't watched the Tivo to this point to see if it showed up.

And I'm not bringing it up as some pro-Josh thing, it just fits this discussion. It happened to be the most notable thing I experienced while down there, and I spent the whole night trying to listen in on things I normally wouldn't hear.


I also watched for this rotation in last nights game on TV and I can see what the plan is pretty clearly. On PnR the weakside wing drops to cover the baseline while the baseline guy comes to the front of the rim for a charge/cutoff.

This is even if that's the PG because I saw AJ Price blow it once and Dun and Josh both got on him a bit (and were pointing for it during the play as well) and then later AJ made that read and then returned to cover his man after the ball rotated away from it and made a brilliant steal.

SMosley21
01-29-2011, 10:39 AM
Shortly after that Collison kinda tried to defuse it by huddling the guys up. I haven't watched the Tivo to this point to see if it showed up.

And I'm not bringing it up as some pro-Josh thing, it just fits this discussion. It happened to be the most notable thing I experienced while down there, and I spent the whole night trying to listen in on things I normally wouldn't hear.


I also watched for this rotation in last nights game on TV and I can see what the plan is pretty clearly. On PnR the weakside wing drops to cover the baseline while the baseline guy comes to the front of the rim for a charge/cutoff.

This is even if that's the PG because I saw AJ Price blow it once and Dun and Josh both got on him a bit (and were pointing for it during the play as well) and then later AJ made that read and then returned to cover his man after the ball rotated away from it and made a brilliant steal.

I know exactly what 2 plays you're talking about. My girlfriend even said something about how AJ got it right the 2nd time. She's learning so quickly :laugh:

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2011, 10:40 AM
What are your views on a potential Mcroberts/ Foster front-court?
Disaster. You need a primary scoring threat, not two helper types. With Tyler/Foster you can run those mid-PnPops for Tyler and this leaves Jeff free to be near the rim for misses which is his specialty. The only impact is that you have less rim defense with them, and Roy/Josh give you less hustle/disruption style rebounding.

OTOH Jeff and Josh could work a pretty good big man move and pass game coming to the rim, especially when one cuts while the other is working out of a PG PnR. Hit the cutter while they react to the initial PnR action.


BTW, Posey is getting killed in all of this, but I gotta say he's been shot faking for the step in look and moving overall on offense quite a bit. Kudos on his effort, he's just caught in a tough spot from our view of where the team should be headed.

vnzla81
01-29-2011, 10:45 AM
Can we please stop talking about who is the best defender please? anybody that got to watch any games this year knows that neither player is that good at defense.

xIndyFan
01-29-2011, 10:56 AM
Can we please stop talking about who is the best defender please? anybody that got to watch any games this year knows that neither player is that good at defense.

:laugh: :iagree: it is true. probably why they don't play together. and why one of the will be here next year and the other won't. :shrug:

pizza guy
01-29-2011, 10:59 AM
Clearly, last night was about Roy playing well, and Dunleavy putting up 30, and basically everyone shooting well (except Posey). The question that we should be asking is whether or not the presence of McRoberts was the cause of that, or if it was coincidence. Does Hansbrough really bog the offense down that much? Is he the reason Roy has been on a schnide? Is Josh the reason Roy had his first good game in forever?

I love what Hansbrough has been doing. He's a beast, he has a very good mid-range shot, and he's got a real attitude. But is he a better fit off the bench with this team? I think he's good enough to start, but his skillset might lend itself better to our second string. It's not uncommon for a starting caliber player to be the 6th man.

JOB likes to go small (to our dismay), but what about going big? A frontcourt of TH/JM/RH could really bruise the other team. I'm not saying it's a great idea, but it'd be interesting to see once, IMO.

Anyways, the bottom line that we can all agree on is that there is no way either of them should be taking DNPs from Posey.

Eleazar
01-29-2011, 11:59 AM
Clearly, last night was about Roy playing well, and Dunleavy putting up 30, and basically everyone shooting well (except Posey). The question that we should be asking is whether or not the presence of McRoberts was the cause of that, or if it was coincidence. Does Hansbrough really bog the offense down that much? Is he the reason Roy has been on a schnide? Is Josh the reason Roy had his first good game in forever?


McRoberts being the reason the whole team was lights out is doubtful.

McRoberts being part of the reason Roy played so well is possible, but probably not the sole reason.

McRoberts was still starting for a whole month while Hibbert was struggling. Although I do think there is a correlation between how much playing time McRoberts receives and how well Hibbert plays, Hibbert was still struggling with McRoberts. I do think playing McRoberts more would have helped Hibbert get through it faster, or at least not be as bad, but ultimately Hibbert not playing well has more to do with Hibbert than McRoberts.

presto123
01-29-2011, 02:10 PM
McRoberts being the reason the whole team was lights out is doubtful.

McRoberts being part of the reason Roy played so well is possible, but probably not the sole reason.

McRoberts was still starting for a whole month while Hibbert was struggling. Although I do think there is a correlation between how much playing time McRoberts receives and how well Hibbert plays, Hibbert was still struggling with McRoberts. I do think playing McRoberts more would have helped Hibbert get through it faster, or at least not be as bad, but ultimately Hibbert not playing well has more to do with Hibbert than McRoberts.



I think Josh is part of the reason Hibbert played better. Not the whole reason but part. Better floor spacing and better ball movement on offense. I've noticed this all along but when I point it out on here people try to discredit me. I'm through with the whole Josh vs Tyler debate but if Josh didn't show O'Brien something last night and get some playing time I may be done watching this team for a while.

pizza guy
01-29-2011, 02:51 PM
I think Josh is part of the reason Hibbert played better. Not the whole reason but part. Better floor spacing and better ball movement on offense. I've noticed this all along but when I point it out on here people try to discredit me. I'm through with the whole Josh vs Tyler debate but if Josh didn't show O'Brien something last night and get some playing time I may be done watching this team for a while.

This can't really be argued. Through half of this season, we've seen enough of Tyler, Josh, and Posey to know which one should be riding the pine, and which ones should get PT in every game.

Mackey_Rose
01-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Tyler is out again tonight.

If he really does have pneumonia, why would they even suggest that he might able to play tonight? And if he doesn't really have pneumonia, why would they say that he does?

pwee31
01-29-2011, 03:06 PM
Tyler is out again tonight.

If he really does have pneumonia, why would they even suggest that he might able to play tonight? And if he doesn't really have pneumonia, why would they say that he does?

From my understanding it was an upper respiratory infection like Hibbert had w/ a mild cause of pneumonia. My guess is they were hoping rest and antibiotics would break everything up.

That or they're just playing it safe since McRoberts played well last night, and will just hold Hansbrough out until Monday

BillS
01-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Tyler is out again tonight.

If he really does have pneumonia, why would they even suggest that he might able to play tonight? And if he doesn't really have pneumonia, why would they say that he does?

Pneumonia is a description of a condition, not of severity.

We tend to think of pneumonia as something that puts people in bed and kills them, but there are forms of pneumonia that present as a cold with very bad lung congestion.

It isn't anything to be trifled with, but it also isn't necessarily unrealistic to think that the worst of the symptoms could be handled in order to allow someone to play. As was said before, I think Tyler wants to play and keeps saying he's fine, it's the doctors who are making the decisions on a day-to-day basis.

No conspiracy here, move along...

SMosley21
01-29-2011, 03:10 PM
From my understanding it was an upper respiratory infection like Hibbert had w/ a mild cause of pneumonia. My guess is they were hoping rest and antibiotics would break everything up.

That or they're just playing it safe since McRoberts played well last night, and will just hold Hansbrough out until Monday

They mentioned that during the broadcast last night that it was an URI, brought on right around the time that Hibbert rejoined the team.

pwee31
01-29-2011, 03:28 PM
Tyler is out again tonight.

If he really does have pneumonia, why would they even suggest that he might able to play tonight? And if he doesn't really have pneumonia, why would they say that he does?

Not that I don't believe you, but where did you see that Tyler was out again?

Mackey_Rose
01-29-2011, 03:29 PM
Not that I don't believe you, but where did you see that Tyler was out again?

I was told by someone who would know.

presto123
01-29-2011, 05:27 PM
I was told by someone who would know.



That "put Josh on a milk carton" is funny:laugh: I never noticed it before. Did somebody get a reward for finding him?:-o

speakout4
01-29-2011, 06:06 PM
I was told by someone who would know.
Not saying you're not getting the best information but Pacer players out with seemingly small initial ailments seem to disappear for the entire season-Josh, JO, Tinsley, Mike and Bender