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View Full Version : Should we bring Hibbert off the bench?



Sookie
01-27-2011, 12:29 PM
So I mentioned in the DC thread, that I think one major problem is that Roy Hibbert and DC don't mesh too well.

When the offense revolved around Roy, DC struggled. With the offense revolving around DC, Roy is struggling.

Their traits and faults don't seem to compliment each other. DC and Roy both want the ball in their hands to make plays. DC needs big guys that are good at the PnR. Roy isn't. Roy needs a PG that'll get him the ball at the right time in the right place, and DC isn't good at that. And those two elements are essential to each of their games.

Second, Roy is obviously (in a no **** sherlock kind of way) at his low mentally. Perhaps bringing him off the bench, and going against the other team's backup center, might get him going. It'd be easier for him, and perhaps we can ease in some confidence. Something Roy severly needs.

Third, Brandon Rush, AJ Price, Roy Hibbert, and Josh McRoberts all have very good chemistry, built from last season. Brandon and AJ used to set up Roy in spots he liked, very well last year. (They'd pass it back and fourth, between the two, to set up the angle, and wait until Roy got good position.)

Fourth, Brandon Rush, AJ, Roy, Josh, and Dun all play the motion offense pretty well. DC and Hans would rather not play that. But they play well together, and quite frankly have been more efficient than anyone else.

So I'd suggest this.
We start:
DC, PG, Danny, Hans, and Foster.

DC can play the PnR with Hans and Foster, PG can run breaks with DC well, and the interior defense should be pretty decent. I think this combo together just works well.

Then defensively I think that's more improved.

Our bench unit being AJ, Brandon, Dun, Josh, Roy

With Granger obviously filling in at the SF and PF spots on occassion.

And like I said, here we can run the motion offense that JOB has been running since he's got here, since these five know how to run it, and since it benifits Dun, Josh, and Roy. They all have good chemistry and are a good combination. And Roy can maybe get his confidence up against some weaker competition until we move him back to the starting position.


Player combinations has always been a problem. I think this would help quite a bit.

Speed
01-27-2011, 12:41 PM
I like the idea for exactly the reasons you say, from a strategic standpoint.

My concern would be whether this would elevate his game by taking away the pressure or finish him off for this year by it being seen as a demotion/failure. I know tough it out, make him run steps etc. (even though that doesn't work for everyone)

I think if you gave him 20 plus minutes a night, every night, I'm for it.

I like the idea. I can't believe it because I hoped for him to be an "any match up" starter, but now I think you're to the point where you have to try something new.

vnzla81
01-27-2011, 12:51 PM
I like the idea but like everything else, Jim is going to find a way to screw the rotation, maybe the 1st quarter is going to start like that but once the 2nd quarter starts he starts to trow s*** at the wall.

Like speed said I think you need to try anything at this point and having Roy coming of the bench could be a way to bring some confidence back, they should do the same to Brandon.

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 12:53 PM
I honestly think it might be best for him to sit out the next 5 games or so. He needs to clear his mind, get back to basics.

I don't know if he is putting too much pressure on himself, but there is something drastically wrong.

Roy needs a break a vacation

Sookie
01-27-2011, 12:59 PM
I like the idea for exactly the reasons you say, from a strategic standpoint.

My concern would be whether this would elevate his game by taking away the pressure or finish him off for this year by it being seen as a demotion/failure. I know tough it out, make him run steps etc. (even though that doesn't work for everyone)

I think if you gave him 20 plus minutes a night, every night, I'm for it.

I like the idea. I can't believe it because I hoped for him to be an "any match up" starter, but now I think you're to the point where you have to try something new.

Yea, I'd want it explained to Roy gently, so he doesn't see it as a demotion.

Saying something like "I want to bring you off the bench with Brandon, Josh, Dun and AJ because I think you fit better with that lineup and Collison is playing well right now, so I need to keep him starting." As in, it's not a demotion, we just want to switch things up a bit, and we think you'll do better with the bench unit.

And as you said, a guaranteed amount of time. But I think the chemistry between some of the younger guys last season combined with going up against weaker competition. Maybe will help him out. He needs a confidence boost.

xBulletproof
01-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Roy was struggling long before the offense was put in Collison's hands.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 01:16 PM
Roy was struggling long before the offense was put in Collison's hands.

But the "offense" we're running now has no chance at helping Roy out. It's just not playing to any of his strengths.

I agree, he struggled through December and now January, and the offense changed mid to late December, into Collison's hands.

I'm just saying..play the guys that play well together and compliment each other..together. Wouldn't it be better to have Foster and Hans in there to play PnR with Collison? And George there to run the break with Collison? And four better defenders, to make up for Collison in that department..instead of having a starting backcourt of Dun and Collison.

And give Roy the ability to maybe gain some confidence. The bench rotation is much more comfortable with a motion offense. They've got good chemistry (we know this) and once again, the rest of the guys can cover for Dun.

We will eventually need to come up with an offense that fits both Roy and DC. But I think, just to give Roy some confidence..playing with a group of guys that play well together, move the ball, and can make it a priority to get him the ball will help Roy a lot.

graphic-er
01-27-2011, 01:27 PM
Yea, I'd want it explained to Roy gently, so he doesn't see it as a demotion.

Saying something like "I want to bring you off the bench with Brandon, Josh, Dun and AJ because I think you fit better with that lineup and Collison is playing well right now, so I need to keep him starting." As in, it's not a demotion, we just want to switch things up a bit, and we think you'll do better with the bench unit.

And as you said, a guaranteed amount of time. But I think the chemistry between some of the younger guys last season combined with going up against weaker competition. Maybe will help him out. He needs a confidence boost.

Gently? LOL! how about just tell him you're the back up until you can prove that you're the starter.

The Rocker
01-27-2011, 01:32 PM
young guys must start rest of the year. confidence will come if there is talent

thewholefnshow31
01-27-2011, 01:45 PM
I like the idea of moving Hibbert to the 2nd team and moving Foster to the first team. Collison and the PnR is the only thing really working for us and we need to ride it as long as we can.

Obviously Hibbert is a poor fit for that style of offense so we should try and work him in with AJ and Rush who better suite his style of play. Also, it can help us answer some questions.

We might as well use the rest of these games to get answers for next year. Maybe Hibbert is not the answer at center we want. Maybe our offense needs to develop around Hansbrough and Collison.

All I know what we are doing now just is not working outside of Collison/Hansbrough.

PacersPride
01-27-2011, 01:48 PM
good post. had the same thought yesterday evening as well.. placing Hibbs on the bench; it may have more to do with how well Foster has been playing, he is a solid veteran big for us.

my best guess is its better to keep foster coming off the bench at this point in his career. Hibbert is the starting center for this team and we need to let him get through this rutt he is in, regardless of who the coach is its still basketball, if your skilled and play hard you should be able to be effective. Then again, the mistakes Hibbert continues to make seem to be more from a low basketball IQ than to do with his athleticism, which will improve with experience. Hibbert is certainly going to need a coach who knows how to maximize his abilities.

nevertheless, to get back to the topic. at this time i would stick with Roy as the starter and continue to bring Foster off the bench.

You have valid points, and i like the 2nd unit you suggest. tough call. Foster is the guy who is in the game during the 4th.. not sure if it really matters who starts for this team or which rotations coach uses; cause i believe the team has tuned him out.

Roy coming off the bench may be a good move, but it may cause him to lose more confidence.?

CableKC
01-27-2011, 01:53 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see JO'B do this.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 01:59 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see JO'B do this.

He's not going to do this completely.
He's not going to put Paul in the starting lineup over Dun, and he's not going to play Josh over Posey. Which is two key parts of the lineup.

I like the shot of energy that Paul and AJ bring into the game together. I do think they run well together. But I think Paul is our best Shooting guard. And I also think that DC needs someone to run with him on the break, and that's pretty much only going to be PG.

A second unit of AJ/PG/Posey/Hibbert isn't going to help out Roy as much. I liked the idea of "good chemistry between the four/five" and helping out the offense and defense in both situations.

SMosley21
01-27-2011, 02:00 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Roy come off the bench if he doesn't snap back into it soon. O'Brien did just say, not 2 days ago, that the only players whose minutes are pretty much guaranteed are Danny and Darren.

CableKC
01-27-2011, 02:04 PM
He's not going to do this completely.
He's not going to put Paul in the starting lineup over Dun, and he's not going to play Josh over Posey. Which is two key parts of the lineup.

I like the shot of energy that Paul and AJ bring into the game together. I do think they run well together. But I think Paul is our best Shooting guard. And I also think that DC needs someone to run with him on the break, and that's pretty much only going to be PG.

A second unit of AJ/PG/Posey/Hibbert isn't going to help out Roy as much. I liked the idea of "good chemistry between the four/five" and helping out the offense and defense in both situations.
Sorry, I was only referencing the main suggestion that you had in regards to putting Hibbert into the 2nd unit. He's tried everything under the sun in regards to rotations but hasn't yet tried shifting Hibbert to the 2nd unit. Given his weak performance as of late....I really don't think that there would be too many here that would object to playing him 20 minutes a game against weaker lineups.

Would AJ be a better Point Guard matchup with Roy?

joeyd
01-27-2011, 02:08 PM
Roy may actually shine coming off the bench. And it takes the pressure off. Most of the players in the NBA, by definition, come off the bench.

I would like to see more of Josh, but I don't think there any dispute that Foster deserves his minutes. On a per minute basis, his stats are similar to Roy's or better in the various descriptors, both tangible and intangible. Frankly, Jeff should start, and it would not do any harm to have McBob back him up along with Roy, as long as Foster can take the physical punishment and Roy can deal with the psychological ramifications of the demotion (please see TJ Ford for advice, Big Guy).

PacersPride
01-27-2011, 02:11 PM
The lineup the Pacers used when Roy was ill, think it was the clippers game was actually very enjoyable to watch. McBob and Hansbrough played well together and the team looked very fast up and down the court. Whether this was the result of poor clippers D or good Pacers basketball who knows.

In terms of winning, its probably a better move to bring Hibbert off the bench, but if were trying to develop young players, then continue starting Hibbert.

edit* Obrien is not likely to start Foster, if he was it would have happened in the Clipps game. its unusual McBob goes from CD-DNP to starting.. in preference of moving Foster into the starting lineup. Knowing Obriens stubborness, Foster is the big he likes to bring off the bench. With that in mind, highly doubt we will see Hibbs move to the second unit.. then again who knows what the hell obrien is going to do.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Sorry, I was only referencing the main suggestion that you had in regards to putting Hibbert into the 2nd unit. He's tried everything under the sun in regards to rotations but hasn't yet tried shifting Hibbert to the 2nd unit. Given his weak performance as of late....I really don't think that there would be too many here that would object to playing him 20 minutes a game against weaker lineups.

Would AJ be a better Point Guard matchup with Roy?

I think they fit better together. AJ's better at getting the ball into the post at the right time/angle. They had good chemistry last season. But I think the whole group from last season (AJ, Brandon, Roy, and Josh) had good chemistry.

And as I said, DC needs someone to play PnR with, and that's just not Roy.

But I also think that, under a better coach, we can come up with an offense that fits both DC and Roy. But as for right now, play the guys that prefer the motion offense with AJ, cause he runs it better than DC. And then play the more PnR offense with Hans, Foster, and have PG out there to run the break.

It's much easier to switch the players around than to try and create a new offense midseason, with this particular coach.

judicata
01-27-2011, 02:13 PM
Does the PnR work with Foster? I mean, there is practically no threat from the "R," but I have not taken a close look at it in action.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 02:14 PM
Does the PnR work with Foster? I mean, there is practically no threat from the "R," but I have not taken a close look at it in action.

Sort of..essentially, it works better than with Roy.

SMosley21
01-27-2011, 02:14 PM
Does the PnR work with Foster? I mean, there is practically no threat from the "R," but I have not taken a close look at it in action.

Foster rolls better than Hibbert.

xIndyFan
01-27-2011, 05:14 PM
sookie, not sure about starting jeff, but i do like the idea of playing more motion offense with AJ. i think he really does an excellent job running it. there are enough guys that played it last year to use them. kind of strange running two different offenses for two different PG, but it is an idea worth looking at.

Trophy
01-27-2011, 05:48 PM
They'll work better together in a better system.

Pacersalltheway10
01-27-2011, 05:52 PM
I would bring Hibbert off the bench from the strategic standpoint. Not because of " get it together! you are sucking right now! you dont deserve to be a starter" like some people on here. That's probably not helping his confidences as he probably reads this board too.

LA_Confidential
01-27-2011, 11:58 PM
No he is our Starting Center. I dont know why their is so much love going around for Jeff Foster. He is terrible. Offensively and Defensively terrible. He's been a Pacers lifer, whoop dee doo. He Is terrible.

beast23
01-28-2011, 12:57 AM
Roy was struggling long before the offense was put in Collison's hands.I was thinking along those lines as well. I don't believe the problem to be a Collison - Hibbert dynamics problem. I just think Hibbert is in a slump, regardless of who is feeding him the ball and how it is fed.

I was not for starting George to start out the year because I honestly felt that it would exert to much pressure on him and that he should be brought along more slowly. If the time was ever right for him to eventually start over Dunleavy and Rush, the timing would ultimately reveal itself. And it did.

I feel the same way about Hibbert, only from the opposite perspective. Hibbert is the starter and I believe has a fragile ego. You yank him now and you don't have a clue whether his ego might be further damaged. And, as was mentioned already, he might very well fall off the face of the planet if he is demoted.

BUT - we can control his minutes and specifically the timing of his initial substitution. Let him start and plan to bring him out after 3 or 4 minutes. If he is playing well at that time, let him go an extra minute or 2 to see if it continues. Otherwise plan on giving him 4-6 minutes per quarter to get in his 18-20 minutes per game. Give him the opportunity to play through it while letting him know he is still the starter, but take some of the pressure off of him by playing him fewer minutes.

spazzxb
01-28-2011, 01:14 AM
No he is our Starting Center. I dont know why their is so much love going around for Jeff Foster. He is terrible. Offensively and Defensively terrible. He's been a Pacers lifer, whoop dee doo. He Is terrible.

Jeff foster is a good backup and I don't really think anyone is saying he is better than Roy(at least not better than good Roy). The problem is neither Josh nor Foster are offensive threats. The only Post Presence the team has are Hibbert and Tyler. The best chance this team has to run a consistent effective traditional lineup is for Tyler to play with jeff and Hibbert to play with Josh. Currently we only have 1 PF in the rotation and utilize a lot of small ball. I think this roster shakeup is more about getting Josh on the floor at the backup 4 and getting away from small ball with Posey than it is Jeff vs. Roy. Of course then you have the issue of Danny playing more 3 and a reduction of minutes for the wings. The way things sound this might mean Rush falling out of the rotation, although I am sure a lot of posters would call for Dunleavy to hit the bench.

joeyd
01-28-2011, 01:29 AM
No he is our Starting Center. I dont know why their is so much love going around for Jeff Foster. He is terrible. Offensively and Defensively terrible. He's been a Pacers lifer, whoop dee doo. He Is terrible.

If you were on the Titanic, would you have hung around with the captain and gone down with the ship, or would you have contemplated alternatives? Roy has potential, there is no argument there. However, right now he is playing poorly, and Jeff is (albeit arguably) the best big we have. Show me the stats that on a per-minute basis, he is terrible defensively. And compare his stats with Roy. Then tell me that he is terrible defensively. Finally, maybe the guy does deserve some props as a Pacer Lifer. Not saying his jersey should be retired, but he has contributed in 700+ games, which says something for an NBA player.

joeyd
01-28-2011, 01:33 AM
Jeff foster is a good backup and I don't really think anyone is saying he is better than Roy(at least not better than good Roy). The problem is neither Josh nor Foster are offensive threats. The only Post Presence the team has are Hibbert and Tyler.

Right. I wasn't saying Jeff was physically more gifted or had more potential than Roy. And I wish that both Josh and Jeff could contribute more on offensive. However, I think this points out more of the shortcomings of the team or the coach. Remember the Pistons during their peak years? They had Rodman, who really wasn't an offensive threat himself, but a great rebounder that they relied on. They built a team that had the offense to support placing Rodman in the mix. Without the slump in shooting from Granger and Hibbert, we would have the offense to play Josh and Foster when needed.

Hicks
01-28-2011, 11:37 AM
Honestly, it probably is time to start Jeff and bring Roy in second. It's certainly a talent downgrade, but you can still give Roy a lot of minutes, only they'll come against lower-energy starters, or their backups.

Sookie
01-28-2011, 12:24 PM
I was thinking along those lines as well. I don't believe the problem to be a Collison - Hibbert dynamics problem. I just think Hibbert is in a slump, regardless of who is feeding him the ball and how it is fed.

I was not for starting George to start out the year because I honestly felt that it would exert to much pressure on him and that he should be brought along more slowly. If the time was ever right for him to eventually start over Dunleavy and Rush, the timing would ultimately reveal itself. And it did.

I feel the same way about Hibbert, only from the opposite perspective. Hibbert is the starter and I believe has a fragile ego. You yank him now and you don't have a clue whether his ego might be further damaged. And, as was mentioned already, he might very well fall off the face of the planet if he is demoted.

BUT - we can control his minutes and specifically the timing of his initial substitution. Let him start and plan to bring him out after 3 or 4 minutes. If he is playing well at that time, let him go an extra minute or 2 to see if it continues. Otherwise plan on giving him 4-6 minutes per quarter to get in his 18-20 minutes per game. Give him the opportunity to play through it while letting him know he is still the starter, but take some of the pressure off of him by playing him fewer minutes.

I want to be clear,

I'm not, in anyway saying that Roy's problems are attributed to Collison. I agree, Roy's problems started way before Collison we gave the keys to Collison. However, giving the keys to Collison means that we are going to play an offense that doesn't help Roy at all.

What I am saying is that, I'm not sure that, at least in the two offensive systems we've seen Darren and Roy mesh all that well, even to the point of..one of the two would rather play a transition game and the other would rather play a half court game. And that, perhaps for Roy's sake, we should play him with a bunch of guys that he does have good chemistry with, and prefer/would play his style..against weaker competition. Just because Roy clearly needs a confidence boost.

I think once you get Roy going, and once he's "too high" he'll be fine, regardless of who he is playing with. But right now, I think the coaching staff needs to be looking at alternative ways to get Roy going.