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View Full Version : Forget the coach - team needs a modern GM



indyaway
01-27-2011, 12:28 PM
I dislike O'Brien as much as anyone. I even find the suggestion that he's some genius with stat-based strategies to be a fallacy. If he was, we'd at least be at or above .500 as someone with a numerical edge usually comes out on the right side of 50/50.

I say this as someone who has money with a hedge fund that is 100% computer driven with literally an office full of Ivy League or equivalent (MIT, Caltech) science and math PHds from every discipline imaginable constantly updating trading strategies that hinge on sub-second timing and predicting what direction investments may go based on what other players in the market are doing (which is why many funds use mechanisms to try and mask their trades and make them anonymous).

Point being, early on when I gave them money the fund manager told me that day trading, for even the above average investor, is dead. He showed me exactly what really is going on in the background and the reality is it's impossible for pretty much anyone to win at the game versus the type of competition his fund, and many other black box funds like him bring to the market.

How does that apply to the Pacer's GM position? I strongly feel that in the modern era of sports the most successful teams have GM's that operate under similar levels of quality, intensity, and rigor as top hedge funds. A perfect example is Bill Polian's organization. Yes, it's just produced a single super bowl, but the longevity of success under the circumstances that the NFL has structured salary caps, is impossible to ignore. The same can be said for New England and Pittsburg. These are organizations led by smart GM's.

Former players are great as NBA coaches. A lot of that is about connecting with the team and being a leader. Yes, there are some strategies and decisions to be made with respect to the game itself, but as we saw when Bird coached, that's a role you can fill with assistants.

However, you can't fill a modern GM position with someone simply because he was a former player. MJ, Bird - HOF players, not intellectual powerhouses. The irony is, the Pacers were probably on the forefront of this trend back in the day with Donny Walsh. That guy combined deep intellect about the business of basketball with behind the scenes deal making ability at a level that enabled a small market team like the Pacers to compete @ the ECF level for about a decade. Yes, he had some misses, but more often than not he produced the best hits possible given the resources available to the team.

So, with that said, I'm 100% for the Pacers doing something like hiring Mark Jackson to coach, but please, please get a top-tier MIND behind the GM's desk.

SMosley21
01-27-2011, 12:57 PM
Kevin Pritchard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Pritchard)

http://www.lolzilla.net/images/7267337.gif

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 12:58 PM
Why is there a floating mouse icon in your post?

BPump33
01-27-2011, 01:00 PM
Why is there a floating mouse icon in your post?

I'm glad you said this because I was getting freaked out.

SMosley21
01-27-2011, 01:07 PM
Why is there a floating mouse icon in your post?

It's trying really hard to click on Pritchard's name but has been unsuccessful thus far.

indyaway
01-27-2011, 01:21 PM
Kevin Pritchard would qualify in my book. Like his background: former PG for a 1st class NCAA school, played for smart coaches like Larry Brown and Gregg Popovich in college, worked for a 1st class organization like the Spurs, constantly been promoted throughout his career, and reformed a small market, troubled team like the JailBlazers.

This is a guy whose resume demonstrates that he's familiar with how top organizations are run from the inside and shows progression and maturity with regard to his title and role. Honestly, the Pacers would be lucky to land him as I can easily see competition for this guy.

xBulletproof
01-27-2011, 01:57 PM
You simply can't compare football and basketball. In football you can release players and save yourself from cap hell. The draft and ability to find good players later in it is entirely different as well.

In the NBA just a couple of bad decisions can hinder your team for several years. We're not the first team it's happened to. However in our case the bad decisions that led to this mess were on Donnie Walsh (the one your think is a genius) and had to be rectified by Bird (who you think needs replaced).

Kinda odd.

wintermute
01-27-2011, 02:49 PM
Pritchard is regarded as one of the pioneers among statistically oriented GMs, so yeah he should qualify under your criteria. For what's it's worth, Morway seems to be filling that role for the Pacers. At least, he attended the Sloan Sports Analysis Conference on behalf of the Pacers.

Walsh by most accounts isn't a believer in statistical analysis.

There's a trend now of hiring GMs who are strong in statistical analysis (Sam Presti and Rich Cho being recent examples), but I don't think that should be the only criteria. There's more to being a GM than understanding stats, I think, though of course it wouldn't hurt.




I say this as someone who has money with a hedge fund that is 100% computer driven with literally an office full of Ivy League or equivalent (MIT, Caltech) science and math PHds from every discipline imaginable constantly updating trading strategies that hinge on sub-second timing and predicting what direction investments may go based on what other players in the market are doing (which is why many funds use mechanisms to try and mask their trades and make them anonymous).

Point being, early on when I gave them money the fund manager told me that day trading, for even the above average investor, is dead. He showed me exactly what really is going on in the background and the reality is it's impossible for pretty much anyone to win at the game versus the type of competition his fund, and many other black box funds like him bring to the market.


(OT) I'm happy for you that you have the $$$ to sink in a hedge fund, but you should know even geniuses can make mistakes. Look up Long Term Capital Management (LTCM) for an object lesson.

judicata
01-27-2011, 03:10 PM
I will make my decision about Bird when he uses the expiring contracts/cap space this next year. He's had to suffer through the ill effects of taking those contracts, he should get the first shot at turning them into something.

indyaway
01-27-2011, 03:46 PM
You simply can't compare football and basketball. In football you can release players and save yourself from cap hell. The draft and ability to find good players later in it is entirely different as well.

In the NBA just a couple of bad decisions can hinder your team for several years.

All the more reason why it's critical to have a high IQ person at the helm



We're not the first team it's happened to. However in our case the bad decisions that led to this mess were on Donnie Walsh (the one your think is a genius) and had to be rectified by Bird (who you think needs replaced).

Kinda odd.

I'm going by results while on the job. The Pacers, w/ Walsh, were competitive over a long enough period of time to be able to judge the effectiveness of the GM

How are the Knicks doing now w/ Walsh at the helm? They were, by all accounts, in worse starting position than even the Pacers in terms of talent and contracts. Now, once again, Walsh's decision making in reforming that team is being witnessed.

aaronb
01-27-2011, 03:51 PM
I will make my decision about Bird when he uses the expiring contracts/cap space this next year. He's had to suffer through the ill effects of taking those contracts, he should get the first shot at turning them into something.


Can we trust the guy to spend wisely with that space?

We can probably attract a top level Pritchard/Presti esque GM right now since he can hire his own coach. And will have cap space to work with.

Probably won't be able to lure a top guy if we let Larry spend our cap space on Murphy, Dunleavy, Foster and Scalarine this offseason.

xBulletproof
01-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Can we trust the guy to spend wisely with that space?

We can probably attract a top level Pritchard/Presti esque GM right now since he can hire his own coach. And will have cap space to work with.

Probably won't be able to lure a top guy if we let Larry spend our cap space on Murphy, Dunleavy, Foster and Scalarine this offseason.

Can we really trust Pritchard?

He's the guy who gave Brandon Roy an 80 million dollar extension due to media pressure even though they KNEW he had major knee problems that would only get worse.

wintermute
01-27-2011, 04:02 PM
How are the Knicks doing now w/ Walsh at the helm? They were, by all accounts, in worse starting position than even the Pacers in terms of talent and contracts. Now, once again, Walsh's decision making in reforming that team is being witnessed.

Knicks have already had their cap space year. Pacers will get their chance next year. Comparing this year's Knicks to next year's Pacers would be a fairer comparison.

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 04:05 PM
So are you saying they cheat. Computer systems while complicated and smart, are only as effective as there web connection. There is a premium for server space near the stock exchange. The difference between a "great" fund and a crap fund can simply be the location of the server. While legal what is really going on is organizations with fast computers and premium server space gameing a flawed system. Computers act at a speed humans can't touch.

Walsh walked away from this team leaving the mess we have been cleaning up Birds entire time with the job. I don't blame Walsh for Jo's knee, but his last move as a member of the Pacer organization was (i believe) acquiring Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy and there long expensive contracts.


I dislike O'Brien as much as anyone. I even find the suggestion that he's some genius with stat-based strategies to be a fallacy. If he was, we'd at least be at or above .500 as someone with a numerical edge usually comes out on the right side of 50/50.

I say this as someone who has money with a hedge fund that is 100% computer driven with literally an office full of Ivy League or equivalent (MIT, Caltech) science and math PHds from every discipline imaginable constantly updating trading strategies that hinge on sub-second timing and predicting what direction investments may go based on what other players in the market are doing (which is why many funds use mechanisms to try and mask their trades and make them anonymous).

Point being, early on when I gave them money the fund manager told me that day trading, for even the above average investor, is dead. He showed me exactly what really is going on in the background and the reality is it's impossible for pretty much anyone to win at the game versus the type of competition his fund, and many other black box funds like him bring to the market.

How does that apply to the Pacer's GM position? I strongly feel that in the modern era of sports the most successful teams have GM's that operate under similar levels of quality, intensity, and rigor as top hedge funds. A perfect example is Bill Polian's organization. Yes, it's just produced a single super bowl, but the longevity of success under the circumstances that the NFL has structured salary caps, is impossible to ignore. The same can be said for New England and Pittsburg. These are organizations led by smart GM's.

Former players are great as NBA coaches. A lot of that is about connecting with the team and being a leader. Yes, there are some strategies and decisions to be made with respect to the game itself, but as we saw when Bird coached, that's a role you can fill with assistants.

However, you can't fill a modern GM position with someone simply because he was a former player. MJ, Bird - HOF players, not intellectual powerhouses. The irony is, the Pacers were probably on the forefront of this trend back in the day with Donny Walsh. That guy combined deep intellect about the business of basketball with behind the scenes deal making ability at a level that enabled a small market team like the Pacers to compete @ the ECF level for about a decade. Yes, he had some misses, but more often than not he produced the best hits possible given the resources available to the team.

So, with that said, I'm 100% for the Pacers doing something like hiring Mark Jackson to coach, but please, please get a top-tier MIND behind the GM's desk.

The Rocker
01-27-2011, 04:12 PM
So are you saying they cheat. Computer systems while complicated and smart, are only as effective as there web connection. There is a premium for server space near the stock exchange. The difference between a "great" fund and a crap fund can simply be the location of the server. While legal what is really going on is organizations with fast computers and premium server space gameing a flawed system. Computers act at a speed humans can't touch.

Walsh walked away from this team leaving the mess we have been cleaning up Birds entire time with the job. I don't blame Walsh for Jo's knee, but his last move as a member of the Pacer organization was (i believe) acquiring Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy and there long expensive contracts.
in portlend Rich Cho in Birds role now

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 04:15 PM
in portlend Rich Cho in Birds role now


?

The Rocker
01-27-2011, 04:21 PM
?
Rich Cho clean house after Pritchard

indyaway
01-27-2011, 04:40 PM
So are you saying they cheat. Computer systems while complicated and smart, are only as effective as there web connection. There is a premium for server space near the stock exchange. The difference between a "great" fund and a crap fund can simply be the location of the server. While legal what is really going on is organizations with fast computers and premium server space gameing a flawed system. Computers act at a speed humans can't touch.

They don't cheat, they constantly optimize trading strategy. And yes, they have ultra-premium server deployments globally for all markets and instruments they participate in. Again, big reason why, on average, a day trader will now come out behind because quite frankly an individual can't stack up against systems like this for short-term activity. My personal stock purchases are made either for long term dividends and slow growth and buy/hold for "months" being short term for me. Aside from satiating some desire to gamble, I won't bother day flipping stocks anymore.

BTW - there are quite a lot of black box / pure quant trading outfits but they'll rarely even have a website. This is a super discreet world where these funds literally put up the periscope from time to time to look around for talent or take in capital and then go back under where they practice serious levels of security and obscurity to avoid anyone getting any intelligence on who they are and what they're doing. The website of the fund I'm in is marginally better than an old Frontpage template and hasn't changed since 2001 aside from their job openings page.

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 05:03 PM
They don't cheat, they constantly optimize trading strategy. And yes, they have ultra-premium server deployments globally for all markets and instruments they participate in. Again, big reason why, on average, a day trader will now come out behind because quite frankly an individual can't stack up against systems like this for short-term activity. My personal stock purchases are made either for long term dividends and slow growth and buy/hold for "months" being short term for me. Aside from satiating some desire to gamble, I won't bother day flipping stocks anymore.

BTW - there are quite a lot of black box / pure quant trading outfits but they'll rarely even have a website. This is a super discreet world where these funds literally put up the periscope from time to time to look around for talent or take in capital and then go back under where they practice serious levels of security and obscurity to avoid anyone getting any intelligence on who they are and what they're doing. The website of the fund I'm in is marginally better than an old Frontpage template and hasn't changed since 2001 aside from their job openings page.

When I said cheat I was referring to having a technological adavantage that trumps anything the competition can do. If your lag is to great ,the skill of computer programmers, MIT grads, and the like aren't going to help you becuase the server locations create an unfair paying field. Life isn't fair and its all legal but daytrading its nothing like running the Pacers.

Aside from clarifying my use of the word cheat I like your post.

indyaway
01-27-2011, 05:33 PM
Agreed that daytrading isn't like running the Pacers, but I believe that GM's in the modern era need to be a lot more intellectually sophisticated to be successful. While you can chuck a former player straight into being a head coach and maybe get good results (Avery Johnson for example, Doc Rivers, etc) I don't believe that's the case with GM's. That position requires both high amounts of brain power as well as the ability to hire and delegate responsibility to other top tier people that round out the management team of an organization.

I believe Bird has neither of those qualities, and that's nothing against him personally, but all his playing greatness adds very little to the metrics that I'd use to hire. It's a nice to have, but far from they key criteria I'd be looking for.

aaronb
01-27-2011, 05:41 PM
Agreed that daytrading isn't like running the Pacers, but I believe that GM's in the modern era need to be a lot more intellectually sophisticated to be successful. While you can chuck a former player straight into being a head coach and maybe get good results (Avery Johnson for example, Doc Rivers, etc) I don't believe that's the case with GM's. That position requires both high amounts of brain power as well as the ability to hire and delegate responsibility to other top tier people that round out the management team of an organization.

I believe Bird has neither of those qualities, and that's nothing against him personally, but all his playing greatness adds very little to the metrics that I'd use to hire. It's a nice to have, but far from they key criteria I'd be looking for.


Agreed,

And in some ways the Stubborn determination he was famous for as a player. Is really a detriment to him being an effective GM.

Sometimes a franchise needs to move backwards, if running straight into a brick wall isn't the best option.

The Rocker
01-27-2011, 06:28 PM
some qoutes from portland board (realgm)

Of the last 4 Blazers GM's the most successful have been the ones with business acumen rather than basketball scouts. Whitsitt and Patterson were business gurus and hired basketball scouts to evaluate talent. Whitsitt built great teams and drafted well and Patterson drafted Roy and Aldridge. While Nash and Pritchard were basketball scouts that turned into busts as GM's. So, Iím happy to see another business guru as our GM.

The Rocker
01-27-2011, 06:30 PM
This was very poor timing on Allen's part, but I'll be interested to hear what comes out in the next couple of days. KP has been a great turn around specialist, but he had a track record of rubbing other GMs the wrong way. Maybe one of the reasons behind this decision is it became clear that he would not be able to get the team to the next level with the bridges he's burned around the league?

The Rocker
01-27-2011, 06:44 PM
as I said, Jaynes said it came from KP's agent

Jaynes, perhaps surprisingly, seemed to be implying that KP certainly isn't blameless in this thing at all

The first thing Jaynes said was that he interviewed Steve Patterson a couple of days ago. In that interview, Patterson was perplexed why KP got all the credit for the 2006 draft. In other words Patterson maintains that KP wasn't nearly as responsible for Roy and Aldridge as the prevailing storyline of the draft would indicate. Whether or not that's Patterson blowing smoke Jaynes didn't know

The second thing Jaynes made of point of saying, or at least implying, was that in each draft, the Blazers have a "war room" where there are several people working on the decisions and deals that have gone down on draft day. Jaynes implied that KP wasn't nearly as responsible for all the draft day moves as he's taken credit for. I guess the fact that KP is gone while the 2 main scouts have received contract extensions might lend credence to the idea that KP has taken and received a bit too much credit

The 3rd thing Jaynes said was that KP had engendered resentment in upper management and especially with Paul Allen because KP was a little too quick to throw Allen under the bus. Jaynes offered two examples. One was that the KP was taken off the Brandon Roy extension negotiations because of a lack of progress. When the contract was signed, KP made a point of basically saying things that he'd have completed it sooner by giving Roy the max. Jaynes said that the Blazers were concerned about the length because of the condition of Roy's knees. (a scary though as a Blazer fan) A legitimate concern as we saw at the end of this season

The other example was the Ime Udoka/Patty Mills decision. KP made a point of saying he'd have preferred Udoka but "ownership" chose Mills. Jaynes said that these public statements of KP that pointed the finger at PA, instead of simply towing the company line were some of the nails in KP's coffin (my words)

(I'd add that the things KP's agent said about Paul Allen and the Vulcans when Penn was fired were pretty antagonistic. I said at the time that KP should shut his agent up. Only a fool wouldn't think that PA resented the hell out of what that agent said)

in any event, I don't know how true all the things that Jaynes said are. I don't have a high opinion of him. I will stipulate that he's got some sources so he may have cast the situation accurately

oxxo
01-27-2011, 06:46 PM
some qoutes from portland board (realgm)

Of the last 4 Blazers GM's the most successful have been the ones with business acumen rather than basketball scouts. Whitsitt and Patterson were business gurus and hired basketball scouts to evaluate talent. Whitsitt built great teams and drafted well and Patterson drafted Roy and Aldridge. While Nash and Pritchard were basketball scouts that turned into busts as GM's. So, Iím happy to see another business guru as our GM.

This. Pritchard has done absolutely nothing. Bird has done a great job. Walsh did a good job overall, but not so much near the end of his tenure here.

Pacerized
01-27-2011, 06:54 PM
Walsh did a great job but it took him a long time to put a winning team together. IMO Larry has done a better job during his first 3 years in complete control then DW did in the same time frame. Bird and Morway still have my support. I see no reason not to give them until the beginning of next season to see what they can do with the available cap space we'll have.

The Rocker
01-27-2011, 07:46 PM
If you want to understand why KP is under threat of losing his job, you need to understand what his job is. Many people believe KP got the GM job because he was a great talent evaluator while he was Director of Player Personnel. It might be true that KP did well evaluating talent but a GM needs to be his team’s top manager.

KP has done a terrible job managing the Blazers. KP (the so called architect of the Blazers success and all that is good and pure) has had and carried out only 1 plan in his 3 years as GM. That was the 3-year salary cap plan. The 3-year salary cap plan failed. It failed because it didn't yield a great player that would be the final piece to put the Blazers over the top. And, it failed because none of the young players that were expected to develop and fill starting roles developed into starters (at least not for the Blazers). Part of the salary cap plan was the Blazers would stay out of the free agent market for 2 years and develop young players (Webster, Frye, Fernandez, Jack, Blake, Outlaw, and Rodriguez). Well, that group of players that KP believed was so good we could sit out free agency didn’t yield a starting SF or PG. Andre Miller is a fine player but in his 11 years he hasn't helped a team win a playoff series and the Blazers won't win one because of Andre either. In fact, Andre said no team besides Portland with cap space expressed interest in him and his only choices were Portland or a 1-year MLE deal with the Knicks. So, Andre was the type of MLE player the Blazers passed on for 2 years rather than the big 3rd year score we were looking for.

But wait a minute, KP is the greatest GM in basketball, the man who single handedly turned the Blazers from the losing Jailblazers into a 50-win playoff team. This is all I have heard from Portland’s media for 3 years. How can it be KP has done a bad job? Easy, KP and Portland’s media has done a bad job. The media in Portland hasn’t been paying attention to what is going on with the Blazers. Instead of analyzing and providing a critical alternative point of view, the media has acted like heads of the Blazers propaganda department. Even after 3 years of failure to improve the Blazers team, Clownzano and Quick are still spinning their BS propaganda. Well, I’m not buying it. I never bought into the Jailblazer propaganda and I’m not going to buy into the Rockstar God GM propaganda either. Yeah, some of you can buy into the Cowboy Hero going out in a Blaze of Glory if you want. I’m going to pay attention to what is really going on.

How did KP mismanage the Blazers? Was his 3-year plan a bad plan? Well, I don’t think his 3 year plan was even given a chance to succeed. The reason it wasn’t given a chance was bad management. The first major blunder by KP was almost a death nail and that was the bungling of the cap space from the disabled player exception from Darius Miles. The media reported that the Blazers lost that cap space because Miles played in 10 games or more with the Grizzlies. Wrong, the Blazers lost that cap space because KP and the Blazers allowed Miles to play in 10 games with the Grizzlies. Had the Blazers waited another year before waiving Miles, the Blazers would have had that additional $9 million in cap space for use in acquiring players in the 2009 FA market. KP’s second major blunder was for certain the death nail of his own 3 year plan. The early contract extension given to Martell Webster cost the Blazers another $5 million in cap space. So, out of those 7 young players mentioned earlier only Martell and Rudy remain Blazers today. Not only are Martell and Rudy not starters, ask yourself, did we keep the best 2 players of the 7. Jack is a starter in Toronto and I’ll bet Blake will end up starting somewhere next season as well. Frye is a better player than Martell.

The question before Paul Allen is does he want KP to be the top manager of his team. Including the $30 million Allen spent at KP’s direction to dump Zach (who is now an all-star); Allen has spent over $40 million in KP’s 3 years as GM buying players. I think Paul Allen wants so bad to win a championship he won’t be satisfied with a GM that can’t manage.

The Jackson shimmy
01-27-2011, 09:59 PM
Does Billy Beane know any thing about NBA hoops ?

Just kidding...

As for your hedgie pals, all I can say is this. The sooner the SEC
or whomever shuts some of that crap down (via a transaction
tax or whatever), the better. The fact that 60%+ of NYSE
volume on a daily basis if made up of HFT, etc. is a f'ing joke !

Oh ya, re Bird. He never shoulda been given the job to begin
with. He's been in over his head from Day-1.

BlueNGold
01-27-2011, 11:03 PM
Pritchard was not a bust as a GM. He laid a big goose egg with Greg Oden, but he had many other successful transactions.

BTW, Oden was not like picking Kwame Brown at #1. Oden has medical issues, not talent deficiencies.

Pritchard is a talent scout not a doctor with a crystal ball, for goodness sakes.

vnzla81
01-27-2011, 11:18 PM
Pritchard was not a bust as a GM. He laid a big goose egg with Greg Oden, but he had many other successful transactions.

BTW, Oden was not like picking Kwame Brown at #1. Oden has medical issues, not talent deficiencies.

Pritchard is a talent scout not a doctor with a crystal ball, for goodness sakes.

The rumors is that he knew about Greg Oden health issues and that was the reason why he got fired, he also knew about Broy missing knees and still gave him a huge contract.

smj887
01-27-2011, 11:22 PM
I dislike O'Brien as much as anyone. I even find the suggestion that he's some genius with stat-based strategies to be a fallacy. If he was, we'd at least be at or above .500 as someone with a numerical edge usually comes out on the right side of 50/50.

I quit reading after that.

BlueNGold
01-28-2011, 12:23 AM
The rumors is that he knew about Greg Oden health issues and that was the reason why he got fired, he also knew about Broy missing knees and still gave him a huge contract.

Like I said, he's not a doctor. How is he supposed to interpret medical reports and if experts advised otherwise, why would he hide that from the owners? So he could get embarrassed when the guy comes up lame?

IDK. I suspect he was fired for another reason.

xBulletproof
01-28-2011, 12:36 AM
Like I said, he's not a doctor. How is he supposed to interpret medical reports and if experts advised otherwise, why would he hide that from the owners? So he could get embarrassed when the guy comes up lame?

IDK. I suspect he was fired for another reason.

There were also concerns about his back. There were also concerns that his wrist injury still wasn't 100% after all that time, and that it may never get back to 100%.

You don't need to be a doctor, the major point was that Oden has one leg longer than the other. This is an article involved with that issue written for people with normal lives. Not people pushing their bodies to the point of being one of the best athletes in the world, nor are they generally over 7 feet tall. Just look what took me 30 seconds to google. You just need the internet.

http://www.ourhealthnetwork.com/conditions/FootandAnkle/ShortLegSyndrome.asp

I'm just going to nit pick parts, but you'll get the point, and it'll keep it shorter.


People with a short leg usually compensate for this problem, and thus may cause other problems to occur. This puts pressure on the back bone and the pelvis, causing lower back and hip pain. Other symptoms may include the following:

1. Knee pain in both the short and long legs.
2. Sciatica, or inflammation of the nerves in the leg and lower back.
3. Poor balance when walking and running.
4. Foot and ankle pain.
5. T.M.J.
6. Fatigue.

Our bodies are wonderful! When we have a problem the body tries to fix it; and, if it can't, it tries to get around the problem by compensating for it. These methods of compensation may help our gait, or the way we walk, but they produce abnormal stress in lower back, hips, knees, ankles, and feet. This causes pain in these structures, especially when we are on our feet. In my 30 years of practice, I have seen hundreds of patients who have spent thousands of dollars trying to diagnose why their backs, hips, and knees hurt, and their doctors could not find out why these pains were present

This doesn't take a doctor, just google. ;)