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View Full Version : Is Collison our best player and we don't even know it?



Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 10:26 AM
I look at his stats and I see a guy who's shooting a much better percentage than Roy or Danny. His assists are increasing and his TOs decreasing. His scoring is trending upwards. And I even think his D has improved.

Discuss.

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 10:34 AM
Hard to determine that right now. He's played well. I don't know the answer though

SMosley21
01-27-2011, 10:38 AM
He has been, without question, our best player since late December.

redfoster
01-27-2011, 10:44 AM
Collison and Paul George are our two best players, IMO.

Day-V
01-27-2011, 10:47 AM
I've been very pleased with Darren's play.

pizza guy
01-27-2011, 10:53 AM
As he grows and develops, yes, I think he very well could be. It's too early to tell where Paul George is going to end up developmentally, so I can't really say that he is. Danny certainly has been for years, but we all know his limitations. Roy could be if he could find the magical potion that had him playing so well early this season.

What I like about DC is that he can handle the ball very well, obviously. He can create shots for himself and for the others. And he has to be the fastest guy from end to end. Also, when he pulls up for a jumper, it's rarely a bad shot, and usually goes in.

As he gets better and more comfortable in the NBA and with this group of players, I think he has a chance to be a top flight PG in this league.

Speed
01-27-2011, 11:00 AM
I was just thinking about DC.

I think I lost sight that he's a second year player who is in a system not condusive to great Point Guard statistics. He was a victim of expectations.

He's really putting up nice numbers now, especially for a second year guy.

In January:

Pts 16.3
Assists 5.8
Steals 1.5
FG% 44%
FT% 92%
Rebs 2.6
Mins 32.7

Thats just really solid. Under a more Point Guard friendly system and familiarity with teammates, I don't see why the assists couldn't go up to 8.0 easily, next year.

I feel like you have your Point Guard moving forward and that next year he'll take a huge step up.

He's inconsistent, but it's exactly what you'd expect. When he's good, he's really good.

Among all the gloom that is this season, he's a bright spot for sure, for me.

Brad8888
01-27-2011, 11:04 AM
Obviously, Posey is the best player because he "stretches the floor" and took charges earlier in the season...

xIndyFan
01-27-2011, 11:07 AM
best offensive player. maybe, maybe not.

but collison is as bad a defensive PG as the pacers have had since forever. his defense consists of getting picked by every pick or playing follow the leader around the defense. a teams best player has to be willing and able to play on both sides of the ball. as long as darren is this teams best player, the pacers are looking at another decade of lottery picks.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 11:12 AM
Obviously, Posey is the best player because he "stretches the floor" and took charges earlier in the season...

We seriously couldn't even get through THIS thread which has NOTHING to do with JOB or his coaching style without a sarcastic comment about JOB or James Posey...this is insane.

Speed
01-27-2011, 11:15 AM
best offensive player. maybe, maybe not.

but collison is as bad a defensive PG as the pacers have had since forever. his defense consists of getting picked by every pick or playing follow the leader around the defense. a teams best player has to be willing and able to play on both sides of the ball. as long as darren is this teams best player, the pacers are looking at another decade of lottery picks.

I disagree.

I think he's shown HUGE improvements in this area. I think he was terrible the first month, now I think he's almost average, overall.

I still see him getting better each week, almost. Just my opinion, of course, but I don't see this as an issue, if he keeps improving.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 11:24 AM
I was thinking about this last night. And I think we actually have a really big problem.

I don't think Collison and Hibbert are compatible players.

Collison's stats have been good as of late, but he's also had the ball in his hands a lot, and basically has done whatever he likes with it. The offensive has revolved around Hans and Collison, because Hans is the best person for DC to run PnR with.

There's no "getting the ball to Roy" Roy's not good at the PnR, and Darren's not good at getting the ball to Roy when he's in good position.

We need to try and come up with an offense that suits both, but for now it seems like it's been one or the other. Perhaps as they play together they'll figure it out.

Honestly, I think PG has been our best player as of late. But I think at the end of the day Granger really is our best player. Remember he's being defended better than any other player on the team, and now the offense isn't even looking to get him shots. (It's the DC/AJ makes up crap offense, which is inevitably a PnR)

Collison still looks pathetic defensively, even if there's been improvement. I posted last night though, I'd like to see him next to PG or Brandon because Dun might be making DC look worse than he is.

xIndyFan
01-27-2011, 12:06 PM
thinking more about this. :smart: don't want this to be a 'bash collison' post, so please don't take it that way.

darren is an average NBA starting PG. nothing more nothing less. there are at least 10, maybe 20 PG's better than him in the league right now. we pacer fans over-value him because we are used to watching earl watson start. earl was a tough guy, but last year he was the worst starting PG in the league. he's just barely got a backup job this season. darren is a big improvement, but he had no way to go but up.

right now, darren has been handed the keys to the pacer's car. the offense the pacers run now is an offense designed for him. the defense has changed to cover his deficiencies [i think, i can't always tell about the team defence changes.], he had better be putting up better numbers. he has had the ball in his hands all the time.

so what have we got for this, decent play out of an average player. and a horrible W/L record. darren can be an asset to the pacers, but he is not the best player. or at least i hope not. because he is just not a good enough player to lead a team out of the lottery, much less to the 2nd round of the playoffs. :shrug:

Speed
01-27-2011, 12:17 PM
thinking more about this. :smart: don't want this to be a 'bash collison' post, so please don't take it that way.

darren is an average NBA starting PG. nothing more nothing less. there are at least 10, maybe 20 PG's better than him in the league right now. we pacer fans over-value him because we are used to watching earl watson start. earl was a tough guy, but last year he was the worst starting PG in the league. he's just barely got a backup job this season. darren is a big improvement, but he had no way to go but up.

right now, darren has been handed the keys to the pacer's car. the offense the pacers run now is an offense designed for him. the defense has changed to cover his deficiencies [i think, i can't always tell about the team defence changes.], he had better be putting up better numbers. he has had the ball in his hands all the time.

so what have we got for this, decent play out of an average player. and a horrible W/L record. darren can be an asset to the pacers, but he is not the best player. or at least i hope not. because he is just not a good enough player to lead a team out of the lottery, much less to the 2nd round of the playoffs. :shrug:

I disagree, here too.

He's second year guy, who has one player who can pick and pop in Tyler. Even now that they've went to more P n Rs, he still doesn't have guys who can perform. The other strength is the fast break, last night there was about 10 times he (with the ball) beat the entire team up court. Paul is the only guy who'll run with him.

I'd suspect you're right there are about 20 point guards who are better, but thats a huge improvement from the last 10 years? Plus, I think next year with a new coach, new sets, and being a third year guy, he'll show improvement.

I'm not saying he'll be an Allstar type player, but I do think he can be a starter on a good team. Thats pretty good.

Speed
01-27-2011, 12:21 PM
I was thinking about this last night. And I think we actually have a really big problem.

I don't think Collison and Hibbert are compatible players.

Collison's stats have been good as of late, but he's also had the ball in his hands a lot, and basically has done whatever he likes with it. The offensive has revolved around Hans and Collison, because Hans is the best person for DC to run PnR with.

There's no "getting the ball to Roy" Roy's not good at the PnR, and Darren's not good at getting the ball to Roy when he's in good position.

We need to try and come up with an offense that suits both, but for now it seems like it's been one or the other. Perhaps as they play together they'll figure it out.

Honestly, I think PG has been our best player as of late. But I think at the end of the day Granger really is our best player. Remember he's being defended better than any other player on the team, and now the offense isn't even looking to get him shots. (It's the DC/AJ makes up crap offense, which is inevitably a PnR)

Collison still looks pathetic defensively, even if there's been improvement. I posted last night though, I'd like to see him next to PG or Brandon because Dun might be making DC look worse than he is.

Roy and DC are bad defensively against the pick and roll. I agree. Roy isn't fast enough to recover, DC can get caught up on the pick. It's a tough combination, at this point.

Obie does have the other 'big' cover Roy's guy on the roll, then Roy can recover to that players guy, but it doesn't work all the time.

Roy's a big part of that problem right now, he's struggling more than at any point in his career, even as a Rook.

xIndyFan
01-27-2011, 12:30 PM
yes and no here. i hate the line by line analysis/arguement/disection of another post, but have to do it here. sorry.


I disagree, here too.

He's second year guy, who has one player who can pick and pop in Tyler. Even now that they've went to more P n Rs, he still doesn't have guys who can perform. The other strength is the fast break, last night there was about 10 times he (with the ball) beat the entire team up court. Paul is the only guy who'll run with him.

:iagree: this is my biggest complaint about the pacer players. they are the laziest guys in the league. nobody except paul george will breakout with darren [or AJ or AJ]. when mike dunleavy is the 2nd guy down the court with that little trot of his, the guys behind him are not trying to run. it drive me :crazy: :pissed:


I'd suspect you're right there are about 20 point guards who are better, but thats a huge improvement from the last 10 years? Plus, I think next year with a new coach, new sets, and being a third year guy, he'll show improvement.

I'm not saying he'll be an Allstar type player, but I do think he can be a starter on a good team. Thats pretty good.

i just don't see it. there are too many guys better than him. he is good enough to start on a good team if he is the worst player on the team. starter that is. but if he is your best player or 2nd best player, they your team sucks. it's basically that simple. and that is not a good thing.

again sorry if this sounds arguementative. i am suffering from pacer player sucking disease. it makes me cranky. :(:mad::cry:

righteouscool
01-27-2011, 12:32 PM
We seriously couldn't even get through THIS thread which has NOTHING to do with JOB or his coaching style without a sarcastic comment about JOB or James Posey...this is insane.

Yes, these passive aggressive comments are annoying and add nothing. I despise O'brien, but at least keep it to a relevant thread.

indyaway
01-27-2011, 12:37 PM
Even if Granger and Collison were equals in terms of talent, Collison plays a position that is so much harder to fill. Real, starter grade NBA point guards are hard to find. The drop off between Collison and Price (who, honestly is at best a 3rd PG on a decent team) is massive. Small forwards, however, are a commodity, not a luxury good. If I have to retain one player on the Pacer's team right now, it's Collison, followed a distance second with George. Hibbert, I'm starting to believe, is fools gold but I'm willing to see what he can do once JOB is out of here.

PaceBalls
01-27-2011, 12:40 PM
Obviously, Posey is the best player because he "stretches the floor" and took charges earlier in the season...

Don't forget that epic +/- he had in that Clippers game... and doing it while guarding Blake Griffin!!!! MVP! MVP! MVP!

That one was just for you guys :)

vnzla81
01-27-2011, 12:44 PM
Obviously, Posey is the best player because he "stretches the floor" and took charges earlier in the season...

He is just amazing, Posey for MVP

xIndyFan
01-27-2011, 12:47 PM
Even if Granger and Collison were equals in terms of talent, Collison plays a position that is so much harder to fill. Real, starter grade NBA point guards are hard to find. The drop off between Collison and Price (who, honestly is at best a 3rd PG on a decent team) is massive. Small forwards, however, are a commodity, not a luxury good. If I have to retain one player on the Pacer's team right now, it's Collison, followed a distance second with George. Hibbert, I'm starting to believe, is fools gold but I'm willing to see what he can do once JOB is out of here.

respectfully, i disagree. right now, the PG position has more good players than in a long time. that is part of darren's problem. he is a good player in the position that has lots of great players. plus there are 2 or 3 top PG's in the next draft. good PG's are a dime a dozen right now.

the SF position is underpopulated right now. the top guys in the league are SF, but caron butler is a top 10 SF or luol deng is a top 10 SF. the quality of the position drops off quickly after the first couple/three guys.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 12:49 PM
He is just amazing, Posey for MVP

You guys seriously just have to do it in every thread don't you? I don't know why I even try to start threads about something else anymore.

It's ****ing annoying, I'm sorry. If I get warning for this post fine, but it is annoying to start a thread about Darren Collison and have to have yet again another place where I read sarcastic comments about James Posey and Jim O'Brien.

The admins should start a thread where you guys can just make sarcastic James Posey posts to your heart's content just so those of us who are tired of it can carry on a conversation about something else without having to put up with it.

And what makes it worse, one guy makes a sarcastic comment, and then you echo it. Do you think you are being funny? It's not creative, you're just repeating the same joke someone else already made. Its adds less than nothing to the thread.

I tried to start a thread about Darren Collison and we have two sarcastic posts already about James Freakin' Posey. How does that even make sense?

Anthem
01-27-2011, 12:50 PM
The funny thing is that you'd expect McRoberts to do very well with Collison. On paper, their strengths match well.

PaceBalls
01-27-2011, 12:52 PM
You guys seriously just have to do it in every thread don't you? I don't know why I even try to start threads about something else anymore.

It's ****ing annoying, I'm sorry. If I get warning for this post fine, but it is annoying to start a thread about Darren Collison and have to have yet again another place where I read sarcastic comments about James Posey and Jim O'Brien.

The admins should start a thread where you guys can just make sarcastic James Posey posts to your heart's content just so those of us who are tired of it can carry on a conversation about something else without having to put up with it.

And what makes it worse, one guy makes a sarcastic comment, and then you echo it. Do you think you are being funny? It's not creative, you're just repeating the same joke someone else already made. Its adds less than nothing to the thread.

I tried to start a thread about Darren Collison and we have two sarcastic posts already about James Freakin' Posey. How does that even make sense?

Well... it was a lot more funny than this post. That's for sure. :p

FireTheCoach
01-27-2011, 12:55 PM
are ya kiddin me...?? DC's just another mediocre pg in the league. If he's our best player we are certainly screwed. I think he's too small and frail and he doesn't have the real skills to overcome his small stature...not the kind of pg I want starting on my team.... thats my opinion. Sure you got guys like Rondo that are built the same way but Rondos a freak.... in my humble opinion the pg position in the NBA is going the way of bigger, thicker, stronger guys. Man, I miss having a bruiser like Mark Jackson that would walk darn near anybody down in the paint. He was the reason (aside from Miller of course) that we were so good back in the day.

To me DC is a back-up pg thats starting for the Pacers because he's unfortunately our best option at this point in time. His defense is crap... certainly as bad as Dunleavy and most people on here cry about HIS defense constantly.

I say, tank this season..... and generally speaking I've never been one to think that before. I say forget about it, we aren't going to the playoffs (AGAIN) pray the ping pong ball falls in our favor and draft that kid out of BYU. James Fredette his name I think... mark my word, he'll be a force to be reckoned with in the NBA soon enough, might as well be a Pacer.

Just my opinion.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 12:55 PM
If it's acceptable to turn every thread that isn't about James Posey or Jim O'Brien into a sarcastic thread about James Posey or Jim O'Brien, then it's acceptable for me to complain about it.

I honestly don't know what some of you will talk about once JOB is fired.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 12:57 PM
are ya kiddin me...?? DC's just another mediocre pg in the league. If he's our best player we are certainly screwed. I think he's too small and frail and he doesn't have the real skills to overcome his small stature...not the kind of pg I want starting on my team.... thats my opinion. Sure you got guys like Rondo that are built the same way but Rondos a freak.... in my humble opinion the pg position in the NBA is going the way of bigger, thicker, stronger guys. Man, I miss having a bruiser like Mark Jackson that would walk darn near anybody down in the paint. He was the reason (aside from Miller of course) that we were so good back in the day.

To me DC is a back-up pg thats starting for the Pacers because he's unfortunately our best option at this point in time. His defense is crap... certainly as bad as Dunleavy and most people on here cry about HIS defense constantly.

I say, tank this season..... and generally speaking I've never been one to think that before. I say forget about it, we aren't going to the playoffs (AGAIN) pray the ping pong ball falls in our favor and draft that kid out of BYU.

Just my opinion.

You want to draft Jimmer Fredette in the lottery? :-o

This isn't to comment on where the team is if DC is our best player, I agree we won't ever be a contender if DC is our best player long term.

However, as it stands right now, I think he is our most efficient offensive player, and I've seen enough strides over the past month defensively to make me believe that he can get "it" and use his quickness to his advantage.

PaceBalls
01-27-2011, 12:58 PM
I'll tell ya what I see with DC right now. He is trying to be Allen Iverson out there. He doesn't have much of a choice really, there is alot of guys just standing around or making bad picks and even worse rolls.

The guy is definitely the best PG we have had since Mark, he might be in the top 10 in the league on fast breaks and finishing. He had a couple moves last night that were amazing. He also had a couple epic fail moves.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 12:59 PM
Basically, this thread probably serves more as a monument to how far Granger has fallen than anything else.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 01:05 PM
I'll tell ya what I see with DC right now. He is trying to be Allen Iverson out there. He doesn't have much of a choice really, there is alot of guys just standing around or making bad picks and even worse rolls.

The guy is definitely the best PG we have had since Mark, he might be in the top 10 in the league on fast breaks and finishing. He had a couple moves last night that were amazing. He also had a couple epic fail moves.

The offense has changed to "cater" to DC. I feel that's part of the reason Price is playing. He's much better at the PnR than TJ is, and if we're just having our PG making **** up, no one wants to see TJ do that. (I'd rather not see any PG do that but...)

So I think he's supposed to play that way. He runs the PnR with Tyler a lot, and scores himself. It's going to get him good stats. It's also not the best offense for the team. Althought Tyler benifits from it too.

PaceBalls
01-27-2011, 01:15 PM
The offense has changed to "cater" to DC. I feel that's part of the reason Price is playing. He's much better at the PnR than TJ is, and if we're just having our PG making **** up, no one wants to see TJ do that. (I'd rather not see any PG do that but...)

So I think he's supposed to play that way. He runs the PnR with Tyler a lot, and scores himself. It's going to get him good stats. It's also not the best offense for the team. Althought Tyler benifits from it too.

Yeah, the PnR with Tyler is about the best we have. It could be Josh also.. but well we all know the story on that one. What happens after Tyler has played out his 18 minutes and is promptly benched is ugly to watch. Soloman Jones is terrible at the PnR. Last night I watched him set a good pick, then he just stood at the 3pt line! no roll... They call it a pick and roll for a reason!

90'sNBARocked
01-27-2011, 01:22 PM
I don't think we can full assess DC, until we find a coach willing to employ the system that best plays to DC's strength

And no, I don't think DC has been "given the keys to the offense"

90'sNBARocked
01-27-2011, 01:24 PM
If it's acceptable to turn every thread that isn't about James Posey or Jim O'Brien into a sarcastic thread about James Posey or Jim O'Brien, then it's acceptable for me to complain about it.

I honestly don't know what some of you will talk about once JOB is fired.

If you truly don't care then why comment?

just ignore the post and move forward

HC
01-27-2011, 01:27 PM
DC is a beast. Dude can go from half court through traffic, and have the shot dropping in 3 seconds.

cdash
01-27-2011, 01:52 PM
DC has been our best player the past month and a half or so. While everyone else has digressed or plateaued, he has been steadily improving all season. You can tell he has gotten his confidence back and he is making some really nice plays. I thought he was the only guy who played worth a crap last night in that Orlando game. I've been really impressed with him.

mildlysane
01-27-2011, 01:56 PM
DC is a beast. Dude can go from half court through traffic, and have the shot dropping in 3 seconds.
I agree and do not understand the hate from some of the posters. He also excelled in the NO offense quite well as a rookie.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 01:59 PM
Also worth noting, I was sitting in my seats row 7 behind the Pacers bench, and I think Seth was sitting in the Fuzzy's vodka seats so maybe he noticed this too, but there was a point where the Pacers had fallen behind by 14 or 15 points while Collison was on the bench and the Magic had just blown it open for the first time in the 2nd quarter on a string of 3s. Collison was re-inserted into the game and in a small players only huddle as they were heading back on the court, Collison really got spirited with his teammates about hustle and defense. Granger meanwhile kept looking down to the Magic side of the court pointing and gesturing and seemingly making excuses for why the Magic were getting and making open 3s. He did not seem pleased that Collison wasn't listening to his excuses, but I was pleased to see Collison lead.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 02:08 PM
Also worth noting, I was sitting in my seats row 7 behind the Pacers bench, and I think Seth was sitting in the Fuzzy's vodka seats so maybe he noticed this too, but there was a point where the Pacers had fallen behind by 14 or 15 points while Collison was on the bench and the Magic had just blown it open for the first time in the 2nd quarter on a string of 3s. Collison was re-inserted into the game and in a small players only huddle as they were heading back on the court, Collison really got spirited with his teammates about hustle and defense. Granger meanwhile kept looking down to the Magic side of the court pointing and gesturing and seemingly making excuses for why the Magic were getting and making open 3s. He did not seem pleased that Collison wasn't listening to his excuses, but I was pleased to see Collison lead.

That's interesting.

Personally, I think Collison is done listening to JOB, and wants to fire the team up and do something about it. Where as Danny feels like he is just "done."

The team was playing a zone last night, which is pretty much designed to let the three pointer go. But Collison knew it was stupid and was calling for it to stop. Interesting..

That's something that I perfer Collison over Price with. AJ is very much a "good little soldier." He'll do exactly what JOB wants him to do. Even if it's stupid. Even if he knows it's stupid. He thinks he's a representation of the coach on the floor. Case closed. I can tell what the coach wants (in college or here) just by watching what Price is doing. That type of PG is fine if you've got a good coach... I think Collison has a bit of an edge to him. If he thinks something is stupid, he's not going to do it. It's his team and he's making the decisions. Sometimes he doesn't make the best decisions, but they are his choices.

Right now, he's clearly still fighting for this team. But I don't know that he's playing the "coach on the floor" role. In fact, I think he's not at all. But he's playing too well (with the exception of the last two games on the Western conference trip) to yank him out. And I think yanking him would cause Larry to fire JOB, so JOB deals with a little defiance from Collison.

righteouscool
01-27-2011, 02:13 PM
I don't understand the hate for Collison. He is like TJ Ford if TJ Ford had passing vision and made good decisions. Most of Collison's turnovers are stupid and correctable (dribbling off foot, etc). His midrange shot is turning into money and he has some great handles. That move he made to get Foster a layup was the type of stuff you see out of top point guards, not back ups, or even good starters.

Sookie
01-27-2011, 02:20 PM
I don't understand the hate for Collison. He is like TJ Ford if TJ Ford had passing vision and made good decisions. Most of Collison's turnovers are stupid and correctable (dribbling off foot, etc). His midrange shot is turning into money and he has some great handles. That move he made to get Foster a layup was the type of stuff you see out of top point guards, not back ups, or even good starters.


I don't see the hate for Collison? I don't think he's an all star, or our best player (although playing the best right now, with a PG argument) and I think his defense stinks, which should be correctable. I, and I think most people here, also like his personality on the court.

I just, personally, don't like the new "offense." But I'll get into that eventually.