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Bball
01-27-2011, 04:12 AM
It's time for Simon to end this charade

One of Herb Simon's greatest qualities is his willingness to remain hands-off with his Indiana Pacers franchise, to put people in place and let them do what they're supposed to do best. It has served him well, producing years of excellent basketball and playoff appearances.

The time has come, though, for the Pacers' owner to step up and step in.

It's time for Simon, whose franchise is mired in a horrific slump and remains south of a playoff spot in the woebegone Eastern Conference, to do the hard thing and make the change the ever-dwindling fan base demands.

He needs to tell team president Larry Bird to fire Jim O'Brien, then insist that Bird coach this group for the rest of the season.

If Bird refuses to do it, then Simon has to drop O'Brien, hire an interim coach off the Pacers' bench and tell Bird his services will no longer be needed after this season.

Something has to change, and it has to change before this disappointing season is completely lost.

Will Bird or an interim coach make any real difference?

There's no guarantee.

But by making a change now, Simon will send a very strong and important message to this city: We won't stand for this any longer.

Look, we understand the Pacers are in a rebuilding process. We understand this is a very young roster. We knew coming in, this was a marginal playoff team, at best. We've pleaded here for infinite patience, even as the fan base got increasingly angry about the product.

But 38 victories was a reasonable expectation, and given the team's good health, there's been no reason to alter those expectations.

One game beyond the halfway point in the season, the Pacers are on pace to win 32 stinking games, their same grim total as last year, and pull off the nearly impossible feat of missing the playoffs.

They've lost six straight. They've lost nine of 11. They've lost 16 of their past 21.

Progress? Growth? Still searching.

If the players simply aren't any good, if they're really a 32-win team in the fourth year of the rebuilding plan, that's a scathing indictment of Bird and his skills as a talent evaluator. If this team can't make the playoffs in a wretched conference, then Bird needs to be sent packing because, quite honestly, he hasn't done a good enough job.

If the players are as good as Bird thinks they are, if they've simply been underachieving under O'Brien, then that's an indictment of the coach.

But there's only one way for Simon, and the fans, to find out.

By making a change.

Men like Simon are great businessmen because they make hard decisions, because they have backbone and are willing to confront issues. This can't be easy; nobody wants to tell Larry Legend, the ultimate Hoosier icon, that his program is failing. But Simon has to seize this moment, and you sense, somehow, that he knows that.

During Wednesday's 111-96 loss to the Orlando Magic, Simon sat in his usual seat in the corner of Conseco Fieldhouse. Pacers general manager David Morway sat to his right. Bird sat behind. Simon continually rubbed his forehead, looking like a man with a migraine and a kidney stone.

In the end, it might not even be an issue of whether Simon wants Bird and his people to return. In a recent AOL.com article that sent ripples through the organization, Bird told writer Chris Tomasson he isn't quite sure he really wants to return.

"I don't know if I want to come back at this stage, I really don't,'' Bird told AOL. "That's something we've got to talk about. I want to see what direction (Simon) wants to go."

Tell me, with the Pacers' future on the line, with the trade deadline looming in late February, how comfortable can you be when the top decision-maker is making noise like he has lost his desire to continue beyond this season?

Bird was asked why he might want to walk away when he has ample salary cap room heading into next season.

"You're like all my friends. They say, 'Stick it out.' '' Bird told Tomasson. "It's my 30th year in the league. It's been a great run. I got the best job in the world. There's 30 (top executive jobs) and I got one . . . Everybody asks me. I'll wait until after the draft and make a decision. See what my wife (Dinah) wants to do. I got to ask my wife. Maybe she wants me to stay home.''

Wait.

Either you're all in . . . or you're out.

Simon is facing one of the most important crossroads in his history as the Pacers' owner. O'Brien has to go. Bird has to be given an ultimatum. The owner needs to make a statement to the fans, send shock waves through this organization, even if it ultimately qualifies as change for change's sake.

Do it, Herb.

Stand up, stand tough, and do what's necessary.

Bob Kravitz- Indy Star
http://www.indystar.com/article/20110127/SPORTS04/101270405/1004/SPORTS/It-s-time-Simon-end-charade?odyssey=nav|head

Doddage
01-27-2011, 04:25 AM
It sounds more and more like Bird won't be here next season. Perhaps that's why Pritchard has been around lately?

Midcoasted
01-27-2011, 04:41 AM
The players have quit on JOB, other than the ones left fighting for a job next year. The Fosters, Dunleavys, Fords, Solomon Jones, sure they are playing great, but the rest of the players hate the system and have jumped shipped on JOB.

The only way Simon can rectify this is by firing JOB himself. He needs to tell Bird he has done a fine job getting us young talent and putting us in the best position cap wise we've been in forever, but JOB has to go now. Either you do it or I do it.

This has become sickening. JOB you are a great basketball mind when it comes to statistics and you've served your purpose of being hard on the young guys with the game day workouts, but they are tired. Worn out mentally, physically, and emotionally. It's like the psychotic step dad you hate that you have just been praying for your mother to finally end her allegiance to.

This has gone to far. Danny Granger and Roy Hibbert, our two most valuable assets coming into this year, have been falling at a rapid race from the sky. Brandon Rush has went ghost. Hansbrough is lost and Collison is still walking on eggshells.

We have a young core. They should play win or lose from now on. The only way this happens is if JOB is fired. I turned on the game on the radio tonight for a split second and heard the names Dunleavy and Posey and Forster and knew that it was a gaauranteed loss. Play on for your jobs, but the rest of the team has given up on JOB.

I just pray that Stephenson and George haven't been totally poisoned by all of this. They need to learn under a new system. One where Roy Hibbert and Granger aren't set up to fail 9 times out of 10.

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 05:04 AM
The players have quit on JOB, other than the ones left fighting for a job next year. The Fosters, Dunleavys, Fords, Solomon Jones, sure they are playing great, but the rest of the players hate the system and have jumped shipped on JOB.

The only way Simon can rectify this is by firing JOB himself. He needs to tell Bird he has done a fine job getting us young talent and putting us in the best position cap wise we've been in forever, but JOB has to go now. Either you do it or I do it.

This has become sickening. JOB you are a great basketball mind when it comes to statistics and you've served your purpose of being hard on the young guys with the game day workouts, but they are tired. Worn out mentally, physically, and emotionally. It's like the psychotic step dad you hate that you have just been praying for your mother to finally end her allegiance to.

This has gone to far. Danny Granger and Roy Hibbert, our two most valuable assets coming into this year, have been falling at a rapid race from the sky. Brandon Rush has went ghost. Hansbrough is lost and Collison is still walking on eggshells.

We have a young core. They should play win or lose from now on. The only way this happens is if JOB is fired. I turned on the game on the radio tonight for a split second and heard the names Dunleavy and Posey and Forster and knew that it was a gaauranteed loss. Play on for your jobs, but the rest of the team has given up on JOB.

I just pray that Stephenson and George haven't been totally poisoned by all of this. They need to learn under a new system. One where Roy Hibbert and Granger aren't set up to fail 9 times out of 10.

So do you mean to imply that Paul George has quit already? You are just being as overdramatic just like Kravitz. Kravitz is a crap journalist, always has been.

31andonly
01-27-2011, 05:07 AM
Thank you Mr. Kravitz, thank you!

Midcoasted
01-27-2011, 05:51 AM
So do you mean to imply that Paul George has quit already? You are just being as overdramatic just like Kravitz. Kravitz is a crap journalist, always has been.

No Im saying I think it is going to stunt his development at this point.

TMJ31
01-27-2011, 06:01 AM
Well thanks to Mr. Kravitz for hopefully adding enough fuel to this fire to force the issue with Pacers ownership/management.

This has gone on far too long. I wish Jim all the best, but he has lost this team and is leading them into a tailspin.

brewpopps
01-27-2011, 06:28 AM
Not certain what IndyStar is up to, but isn't this piece in stark contrast to the Mike Wells' upbeat, positive story from yesterday? Yesterday OB was expecting to make the playoffs...today Kravitz wants him gone?
Are Kravitz and Eddie back at it again?

vnzla81
01-27-2011, 06:41 AM
I agree with Bob, if Bird doesn't want to make the hard decision of firing JOB Simon should tell him "thanks for your service" and let him go too, this circus needs to stop as soon as possible.

HOOPFANATIC
01-27-2011, 06:44 AM
I hope this doesn't make them dig in their heels. It has been known Obrien needs to go a long time now.

Mackey_Rose
01-27-2011, 06:50 AM
Kravitz is exactly right. It has gone on far too long.

O'Brien needs to go, and if Bird won't do it, they both need to go. Right ****ing now.

indygeezer
01-27-2011, 07:21 AM
I agree that this could make them dig in their heels and show public support of JOB.

Taking the Donnie Walsh approach, LB should hire Pritchard as his "assistant" and have HIM fire JOB. That way he can maintain a public profile of sticking with his Celtic buddy. Bird would not be the 'bad guy'.

It could also come down to how many more lost customers will there be if we keep JOB for the rest of the year vs. how much will paying Jim AND another coach cost for the rest of the year?

LB's comments about not sure if he wants to be here next year might be a warning shot to Simon. "Leave it to me or I'm gone".....the question then becomes...."Do I care if he leaves/Do I want him to leave?"

D-BONE
01-27-2011, 07:36 AM
Bird abdicates his position to Pritchard prior to the draft. JOB is canned ASAP and replaced by anybody with a pulse for the remainder of the year. Then move for someone solid...maybe Nate McMillan or Mike Brown or other legit candidates.

This him-hawing attitude by Bird about his desire to stay on on the eve of a make or break end of season and off season I find very concerning. On that I absolutely agree with Kravitz.

At this point we need some people with energy, ideas, hope and a willingness to meet the challenge head on. Bird sounds like he's about to lapse into some kind of coma.

And trade whoever gets us the best good deal...whether it be Danny, Roy, whoever.

pwee31
01-27-2011, 08:05 AM
Sadly teams like New Jersey, Toronto and Cleveland are coming up on the schedule. If the teams does what they're suppose to do, it'll just prolong the coaching ordeal.

D-BONE
01-27-2011, 08:07 AM
NJ's on like a four game win streak. So that's far from automatic. And if you lose either of the other two then that's just more fuel for the fire as those are two of the league's worst.

SMosley21
01-27-2011, 08:12 AM
People can say what they want about Kravitz as a journalist, but he's exactly right in this case.

Mackey_Rose
01-27-2011, 08:19 AM
People can say what they want about Kravitz as a journalist, but he's exactly right in this case.

People who knock Kravitz as a columnist because they don't like the ideas and opinions he puts in his columns, do not understand the point of a newspaper columnist.

idioteque
01-27-2011, 08:27 AM
If Cleveland breaks their 1,000 game losing streak against us, we HAVE to fire JOB, right?

pacer4ever
01-27-2011, 08:31 AM
I agree with Bob, if Bird doesn't want to make the hard decision of firing JOB Simon should tell him "thanks for your service" and let him go too, this circus needs to stop as soon as possible.

To me that is the easiest decsion of Larry's life JOB is just god awful

Mackey_Rose
01-27-2011, 08:36 AM
If Cleveland breaks their 1,000 game losing streak against us, we HAVE to fire JOB, right?

They have won 1 out of their last 29 games. That is epic.

They get Denver, Orlando, and Miami before they get us. Almost assuredly, they will have won 1 out of 32 by the team we play them. Including a 21 game losing streak.

If a loss to that team isn't the tipping point, there really is no God.

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 08:38 AM
Is that Mr. Kravitz or Mr. Obvious. He rarely offers any real insight

Roaming Gnome
01-27-2011, 08:39 AM
People who knock Kravitz as a columnist because they don't like the ideas and opinions he puts in his columns, do not understand the point of a newspaper columnist.

Exactly!!!!


Kravitz is a crap journalist, always has been.
...and that is where you fail!!

Columnist deal in opinions! Journalist deal in facts.
Kravitz has NEVER been a journalist, he has been a columnist since I've heard of him...

I know... Kravitz is working against your contrarian agenda so you have to call his work crap... I understand!

DrFife
01-27-2011, 08:41 AM
LB's comments about not sure if he wants to be here next year might be a warning shot to Simon. "Leave it to me or I'm gone".....the question then becomes...."Do I care if he leaves/Do I want him to leave?"

Interesting idea. One version of this might be trade-related; for example:

"I know we've got to do something, Mr. Simon, but we're still missing a critical piece in order for our inside-outside game to work. I'm trying my hardest to pull off a trade that'll address the problem and transform our team's functioning, but the whole Carmelo thing being dragged out has put so many GMs on hold. Once I get a good front-court veteran in place, you'll see improvement, and yeah, I do think we'll still make the playoffs. Then you'll have a better idea for how this team can grow and perform."

Mackey_Rose
01-27-2011, 08:42 AM
Is that Mr. Kravitz or Mr. Obvious. He rarely offers any real insight

You fail as well. That also isn't the point! It isn't his job to offer insight.

Why is this hard to understand?

IndyPacer
01-27-2011, 08:46 AM
People can say what they want about Kravitz as a journalist, but he's exactly right in this case.

Kravitz takes a position of being against a strongly disliked coach at a time that the team is a horrendous slump. Wow, what a revelation! Maybe he'll cover water having a curious property of being wet when in liquid form in his next piece of journalism.

Kravitz always takes easy positions, most often from hindsight, yet every time he gets a million supportive "Kravitz is right!" comments praising his brilliant insight.

Sorry for sounding like a cranky jerk. I'm really sick of Kravitz being praised and am not trying to single individual posters out. It's the repeated instances of many that bother me.

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 08:49 AM
You fail as well. That also isn't the point! It isn't his job to offer insight.

Why is this hard to understand?

WTF do you mean I fail? I'm not allowed to offer my opinion of this column?

Yes a columnist is supoposed to offer some insight, tell me something I don't already know, tell me something that has not been discussed to death in this forum - that is exactly why he's getting paid.

When I read David Aldridge's Monday NBA.com column, I get some real NBA insight.

vnzla81
01-27-2011, 08:53 AM
Kravitz takes a position of being against a strongly disliked coach at a time that the team is a horrendous slump. Wow, what a revelation! Maybe he'll cover water having a curious property of being wet when in liquid form in his next piece of journalism.

Kravitz always takes easy positions, most often from hindsight, yet every time he gets a million supportive "Kravitz is right!" comments praising his brilliant insight.

Sorry for sounding like a cranky jerk. I'm really sick of Kravitz being praised and am not trying to single individual posters out. It's the repeated instances of many that bother me.

This is not the first time Kravitz writes something about Bird needing to fire Jim, he wrote few articles last year about this, he actually have been really quiet this year about the whole deal no trying to put more gasoline on the fire.

Roaming Gnome
01-27-2011, 09:00 AM
Kravitz takes a position of being against a strongly disliked coach at a time that the team is a horrendous slump. Wow, what a revelation! Maybe he'll cover water having a curious property of being wet when in liquid form in his next piece of journalism.

Kravitz always takes easy positions, most often from hindsight, yet every time he gets a million supportive "Kravitz is right!" comments praising his brilliant insight.

Sorry for sounding like a cranky jerk. I'm really sick of Kravitz being praised and am not trying to single individual posters out. It's the repeated instances of many that bother me!

Being solidly against Lucas Oil Stadium is hardly an easy position in the Indianapolis sporting community. Granted, I hated that stance he took then, but it did take a lot of guts to be one of the few in the local sports media to take that stand.


I don't agree with most of what Kravitz writes, but to say that he <s>is gutless</s> just takes easy positions is wrong.

There has been plenty that Kravitz has written that I thought was pretty "wrong side of the tracks" from popularity... Especially speaking against the Colts, Tony Dungy & Peyton in the early part of the decade when the Colts were the Pats annual stepping stone to the Super Bowl.

Is that Mr. Kravitz or Mr. Obvious. He rarely offers any real insight
As for this piece.... Yeah, it may be very obvious to us on a Pacers message board but to the guy that may tune in the Pacers once in a blue moon and may read a Mike Wells article a couple times a month.... Explaining this situation isn't so obvious! I've always viewed the sports columnist as an outlet for a casual fan that doesn't want to venture to this side of the sports universe for a little color to the local sports scene!

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 09:01 AM
yeah here is a very similar column he wrote about 1 year ago

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=49674&highlight=kravitz+columns

Sollozzo
01-27-2011, 09:04 AM
What exactly did Kravitz say about Lucas Oil again? I forgot.

travmil
01-27-2011, 09:05 AM
I've said for a long time now, the ONLY thing that will make any difference at all is to just stop going to the games. Many have, including me, but not enough. Why would I waste my time and go down to the games? I can sit on my couch and watch JOB suck, drinking a MUCH cheaper beer. Why would I go see them in person when they aren't providing any worthwhile entertainment that you just "had to be there" to enjoy? Management should be shown a nearly empty house to play in front of for multiple games. There needs to be some sort of "Just Say NO" campaign to get anything done. At the beginning of this season, I thought I could live through it with JOB as coach. I was wrong. I'm getting to the point where he's not even a clown of a coach. A clown would be at least funny, but he's much worse than that. He's a CANCER of a coach. The media talk all the time about players being a locker room cancer. If Ron Artest was a cancer to this franchise (and he was), then JOB is an inoperable brain tumor. How can the Pacers not see that they would make the money it cost them to fire JOB back by the end of the season through increased attendance? If they fire him and turn it around to make the playoffs and host two playoff games they'd make it back easily, especially if the opponent was #1 seed Boston or Miami. Can you imagine being Granger? Giving the best years of your career to a franchise that doesn't have any more sense than this? That doesn't have enough sense to understand that firing JOB is a POSITIVE thing? Bird fired Isaiah Thomas. Bird fired Rick Carlisle. All those guys did is make the playoffs 6 times between them. What in the hell makes JOB so special that he can avoid the axe in the wake of MUCH less success than those two guys? Ugh....it's getting to where I can't even begin to form a rational thought in regards to JOB. His being here, being a head coach, being allowed to ply his trade and influence any team with his asinine ways defies ALL logic and throws the basketball universe out of balance. I can't even talk about him anymore...

Roaming Gnome
01-27-2011, 09:09 AM
yeah here is a very similar column he wrote about 1 year ago

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=49674&highlight=kravitz+columns
Yeah, here is a very similar look at Indiana's position in the standings from last year... Same results almost deserve the same column!

09-10 Eastern Conference
Team GB
1. z-Cleveland --
2. y-Orlando 2.0
3. x-Atlanta 8.0
4. y-Boston 11.0
5. x-Miami 14.0
6. x-Milwauke 15.0
7. x-Charlote 17.0
8. x-Chicago 20.0
9. Toronto 21.0
10. Indiana 29.0
11. New York 32.0
12. Detroit 34.0
13. Philadelph 34.0
14. Washingtn 35.0
15. New Jersy 4

Brad8888
01-27-2011, 09:12 AM
Wells was the good cop with his relatively positive piece. Kravitz is now being the bad cop with his. That way the Star is making sure to cover a wide range of opinions, thereby stirring the pot while still having a representation of most viewpoints that various readers can latch onto. Helps them boost readership both now and in the near future in my opinion.

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 09:12 AM
Gnome I understand, but I guess I'm spoiled by reading NBA columnist like David Aldridge and the like who know the NBA and offer some real inside knowledge and show they really know the NBA. OK, so Bob is for the casual Indy fans, I understand. But he never offers any real insight to me - that is all I am saying.

Also the idea that Bird should take over is I think silly - he isn't going to, Bird has health problems. So why doesn't Kravitz offer some insight into possible coaching candidates.

Roaming Gnome
01-27-2011, 09:14 AM
What exactly did Kravitz say about Lucas Oil again? I forgot.

Said that it was the wrong priority for the city to be focusing on considering that the Police were up for a new contract, the bottomless pit known as IPS needed funding outside what they could levy & Indy's infrastructure needed major dollars that the city didn't have.

It was a very hated stance at the time within the local sporting community... Something that I would expect M. Tully to write, not the local sports columnist!

Sollozzo
01-27-2011, 09:26 AM
Gnome I understand, but I guess I'm spoiled by reading NBA columnist like David Aldridge and the like who know the NBA and offer some real inside knowledge and show they really know the NBA. OK, so Bob is for the casual Indy fans, I understand. But he never offers any real insight to me - that is all I am saying.

Also the idea that Bird should take over is I think silly - he isn't going to, Bird has health problems. So why doesn't Kravitz offer some insight into possible coaching candidates.



You have to keep in mind that people who read David Aldridge (like yourself) are reading him to get some deep NBA insight. Kravitz OTOH is just a local sports columnist who is trying to get the average Indy resident flipping through the paper to glance at his column. The amount of people in Indy who really care about true NBA insight would have to be a tiny number. His job is to keep it simple.

LetsTalkPacers
01-27-2011, 09:29 AM
The players have quit on JOB

This what I said last week. A lot of people said you can't blame JOB for bad turnovers and just bad play from the team, but I kinda still do. Simply because it's because of JOB they have given up. It's not like it's one guy that's unhappy. It's everybody!

Sollozzo
01-27-2011, 09:31 AM
Said that it was the wrong priority for the city to be focusing on considering that the Police were up for a new contract, the bottomless pit known as IPS needed funding outside what they could levy & Indy's infrastructure needed major dollars that the city didn't have.

It was a very hated stance at the time within the local sporting community... Something that I would expect M. Tully to write, not the local sports columnist!



There is something to be said about that argument I think.

Indy has: one of the worst public school systems in the US, miles and miles of dumpy decaying neighborhoods, a horrendous murder/violent crime rate, roads that are in pitiful shape, an overcrowded jail which means animals are prematurely let loose on the public, and closing libraries/parks.

There are other areas where 750 million taxpayer dollars could have been better spent aside from making a billionaire even richer. Irsay made out like a bandit in that deal. It's probably one of the most lopsided stadium deals in the history of professional sports.

I love the Colts and Pacers as much as anyone, but I can see where the average Indy resident could be upset at the fact that the city continually fleeces taxpayers to placate it's billionaire sports owners.

Roaming Gnome
01-27-2011, 09:32 AM
Gnome I understand, but I guess I'm spoiled by reading NBA columnist like David Aldridge and the like who know the NBA and offer some real inside knowledge and show they really know the NBA. OK, so Bob is for the casual Indy fans, I understand. But he never offers any real insight to me - that is all I am saying.

Also the idea that Bird should take over is I think silly - he isn't going to, Bird has health problems. So why doesn't Kravitz offer some insight into possible coaching candidates.

My only issue with the good national guys like Aldridge is that they have little to no insight on my team because unless we make a player move or fire someone.... The Pacers or any bad team isn't even a blip on their radar. Hell, someone farts on the Celtics, Heat or Lakers and the national NBA guys are there to tell you what they digested to produce such an aroma!

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 09:33 AM
I look at this season, and the biggest positive I see is Darren Collison, and that is the one heading into this year that Bird had the most control over (save perhaps firing JOB, but that opens a whole new can of worms due to his contract).

SMosley21
01-27-2011, 09:35 AM
Friday will be the first game all season that I have missed, purely because I just don't want to go. I gave my ticket to a buddy and after sitting in Conseco and watching that embarrassment that happened last night, I don't feel at all bad about not going Friday.

Roaming Gnome
01-27-2011, 09:41 AM
There is something to be said about that argument I think.

Indy has: one of the worst public school systems in the US, miles and miles of dumpy decaying neighborhoods, a horrendous murder/violent crime rate, roads that are in pitiful shape, an overcrowded jail which means animals are prematurely let loose on the public, and closing libraries/parks.

There are other areas where 750 million taxpayer dollars could have been better spent aside from making a billionaire even richer. Irsay made out like a bandit in that deal. It's probably one of the most lopsided stadium deals in the history of professional sports.

I love the Colts and Pacers as much as anyone, but I can see where the average Indy resident could be upset at the fact that the city continually fleeces taxpayers to placate it's billionaire sports owners.
Eventhough I brought this up in this thread, I don't think this thread should go in this direction, so to shortly give you a fence riding answer I'll say the argument of a large municipality's budget Vs. Pro Sports will go on to the end of time. On the side of everything you mention... It does have incredible merit, but you can not undersale the merit having these world class venues bring.

I know that I mentioned my ire for Kravitz public stance against the stadium project, but my reasons were not based on that argument as the stadium project provided for my family and nearly 600 other electricians for a period of 5 years.

graphic-er
01-27-2011, 09:45 AM
Gnome I understand, but I guess I'm spoiled by reading NBA columnist like David Aldridge and the like who know the NBA and offer some real inside knowledge and show they really know the NBA. OK, so Bob is for the casual Indy fans, I understand. But he never offers any real insight to me - that is all I am saying.

Also the idea that Bird should take over is I think silly - he isn't going to, Bird has health problems. So why doesn't Kravitz offer some insight into possible coaching candidates.

Hey when is the last time David Aldridge actually wrote anything of substance on the Indiana Pacers....

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 09:48 AM
Hey when is the last time David Aldridge actually wrote anything of substance the Indiana Pacers....

Probably more often than Kravitz does

BPump33
01-27-2011, 09:53 AM
I really think this is Larry's last season. I was told from a somewhat inside source the reason his contract was through this year is because this is his daughter's last year of high school and he planned on calling it quits when his kids went off to school.

It looks like KP might be taking over and I'm sure he wants to pick his own coach. I would still love to see one of the assistants (I don't care which one at this point) take over just to see what happens, but I'm guessing Larry told JOB that they would go out together. After all, Larry has always been about loyalty.

This is all just my opinion, but it seems to sure be playing out this way.

purdue101
01-27-2011, 09:55 AM
Thank you Kravitz.

Now I just wish Bird/Simon would pull the damn trigger - enough is enough. This has been going on far too long and it's obvious the fans are rebelling against the franchise (as they should).

Sollozzo
01-27-2011, 09:56 AM
Eventhough I brought this up in this thread, I don't think this thread should go in this direction, so to shortly give you a fence riding answer I'll say the argument of a large municipality's budget Vs. Pro Sports will go on to the end of time. On the side of everything you mention... It does have incredible merit, but you can not undersale the merit having these world class venues bring.

I know that I mentioned my ire for Kravitz public stance against the stadium project, but my reasons were not based on that argument as the stadium project provided for my family and nearly 600 other electricians for a period of 5 years.


Certainly can't underscore the importance of the stadium project bringing you and others employment. And having a world-class venue like Lucas Oil certainly does bring a lot to the city.

I'm glad the stadium was built, my only issue is that the billionaire Ir$ay should have forked up more coin. Him putting up a couple hundred more million or so would have hardly been a "cost" to him as he gets all revenues (even non-Colts stuff) from the stadium and would have made the money back in the long term. It would have been an investment. Instead, he only ponies up 50 million and gets richer and richer and richer completely on the backs of the taxpayers.

Robert Kraft put 285 million of his own money toward Gillette Stadium. Jerry Jones also put a ton of his fortune into the new Cowboys Stadium. It's better to do it that way because you don't look as greedy and you end up making a huge chunk of it (if not all and more) back anyway.

Didn't mean to derail the thread. I'll leave it at that.

Bball
01-27-2011, 10:17 AM
WTF do you mean I fail? I'm not allowed to offer my opinion of this column?

Yes a columnist is supoposed to offer some insight, tell me something I don't already know, tell me something that has not been discussed to death in this forum - that is exactly why he's getting paid.

When I read David Aldridge's Monday NBA.com column, I get some real NBA insight.


Kravitz is not necessarily writing for Unclebuck or even the readers of Pacers Digest. He's writing for the readers of the Indpls Star.

Mackey_Rose
01-27-2011, 10:22 AM
WTF do you mean I fail? I'm not allowed to offer my opinion of this column?

Yes a columnist is supoposed to offer some insight, tell me something I don't already know, tell me something that has not been discussed to death in this forum - that is exactly why he's getting paid.

When I read David Aldridge's Monday NBA.com column, I get some real NBA insight.

I was just playing off of Roaming Gnome's post. Didn't mean to offend you. My apologies.

A sports columnist for a local newspaper is paid to offer commentary and voice his opinions on the local sports scene. But most importantly, he is paid to sell newspapers. In a market like Indy, we are lucky to have a writer as good at what he does, as Bob Kravitz is.

It is not his job to break to information or news.

You are in the tiny minority of local people who know what is going on with the Pacers on a day-to-day basis. You are not his target audience with this, or any other piece about the Pacers.

This is for everybody else who doesn't really follow the Pacers or the NBA anymore. Which, frankly, is most of the people who read the Star.

BPump33
01-27-2011, 10:25 AM
This is for everybody else who doesn't really follow the Pacer or the NBA anymore. Which, frankly, is most of the people who read the Star.

You forgot: "including Bob Kravitz."

Mackey_Rose
01-27-2011, 10:25 AM
Kravitz is not necessarily writing for Unclebuck or even the readers of Pacers Digest. He's writing for the readers of the Indpls Star.

It's too bad I'm such a slow typer on my iPad, because I'm often beaten to the punch. Definitely was the case here.

Well done Bball. Short and to the point.

makaveli
01-27-2011, 10:26 AM
I don't understand bashing Kravitz for writing an article that states the obvious. So what if he is only stating what a vast majority of Pacer fans already think or know. There is a huge difference in me coming on a Pacers message board and railing on the coach and this team to the delight of 100-150 dedicated readers (admittedly I have no dedicated readers but you get the idea) and the local pundit doing it for a readership in the hundreds of thousands. Besides the sheer masses of casual observers who now know one of the reasons the home squad is mired in the midst of another losing campaign, Bob can almost guarantee that Bird, Simon, Obie, Morway, and most the players and front office read this article and at the very least have been reminded, thanks to Bob, that the Fan base is fed up with this coach.

Instead of bashing Bob, I would like to thank him for giving the Fans a voice yet again, and would ask him to write a similar article once a week until changes are made.

Bball
01-27-2011, 10:26 AM
I'm glad the stadium was built,

Kravitz also had an issue with the retractable roof not being used much and the amount of money it added to the project... to not be used much...

Justin Tyme
01-27-2011, 10:34 AM
I have never been a Kravitz fan. Seldom do I ever agree with what he has to say, BUT this time he has definately hit the nail on the head.

The Simon's, as Kravitz stated, have left the running of the Pacers to Walsh and Bird. That hasn't been all good as in this case with O'Brien. Wasn't it Herb who said he would be more involved with the Pacers on a daily basis? I really thought when I heard that he was really going to give direction to the FO. I don't see that at all. I see nothing different than when Walsh was here. I find it oddly strange that he allows a coach to cost him millions in lost revenue with his managerial techniques, but wouldn't allow a mall manager to cost him millions in revenue for poor managerial decisions.

Herb Simon is a highly intelligent man who after owning the Pacers for decades has to know something about basketball and how it is played. He surely understands O'Brien's gimmicky system of BB isn't working and has little chance of succeeding. Why let incompetence cost you your fan base and millions? Why allow your 300 mil investment to become a laughing stock due to a stubborn man who has a classic case of tunnel vision in that his system works when it isn't working? Why not just step in and just put your foot down that this has to stop? Tell Bird to fire O'Brien and if Bird won't then tell Bird to have his resignation on your desk at the end of the day. Morway can handle the FO the rest of the season, and there is another Paul Silas who would be willing to coach the Pacers the rest of the season. Morway and a different coach can't do any worse than what's happening now.

With the Pacers loss last night and Milwaukee winning the Pacers are now in 10th place with Kstat's Pistons only a game behind in 11th place. With Philly and Charlotte's wins last night, it gives them a better grip on 7 & 8 places over the Pacers. If Herb Simon is interested in making the playoffs, O'Brien and his obviously failed system has to go. Make the decision Herb to turn this team around and make the playoffs. If that means cleaning house now, then just do it! This team is a dead man walking. It's a team going through the motions that needs a change in direction by new people. Show us, the fans, you meant what you said when you said you get more involved with the running of the Pacers. MAKE THE DECISION!!!

Basketball Fan
01-27-2011, 10:36 AM
It sounds more and more like Bird won't be here next season. Perhaps that's why Pritchard has been around lately?

One can hope he built that Blazers team its not is fault that team is fragile.

Would be ironic if Greg Oden came here and he was healthy and became a major beast(yeah that won't happen obviously)

Basketball Fan
01-27-2011, 10:38 AM
I read it this morning and all I could say is WORD

Spirit
01-27-2011, 10:40 AM
I'm loving how everyone has finally had enough. It's just sad that it took so long. We as Pacers fans expect better considering our franchise's pedigree.

Hicks
01-27-2011, 10:59 AM
You fail as well. That also isn't the point! It isn't his job to offer insight.

Why is this hard to understand?

You're absolutely right about Bob Kravitz and what his job is. And obviously I tend to agree with what he is saying this time.

But it begs the question: If it's not his job to deal with facts or offer insight... why the hell does anyone give a damn about his opinion?

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 11:01 AM
I don't understand bashing Kravitz for writing an article that states the obvious. So what if he is only stating what a vast majority of Pacer fans already think or know. There is a huge difference in me coming on a Pacers message board and railing on the coach and this team to the delight of 100-150 dedicated readers (admittedly I have no dedicated readers but you get the idea) and the local pundit doing it for a readership in the hundreds of thousands. Besides the sheer masses of casual observers who now know one of the reasons the home squad is mired in the midst of another losing campaign, Bob can almost guarantee that Bird, Simon, Obie, Morway, and most the players and front office read this article and at the very least have been reminded, thanks to Bob, that the Fan base is fed up with this coach.

Instead of bashing Bob, I would like to thank him for giving the Fans a voice yet again, and would ask him to write a similar article once a week until changes are made.

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't state the obvious, but how about moving the ball a little bit. How about stating the obvious and then going into what the next step should be. And no sorry telling Bird to coach the team is as insightful as telling Simon to coach his own team.

Plus we all know Jim is gone either soon or after the next 38 games. But then if I read another post about how Jim needs to be fired I'm going to blow a gasket. OK, everyone knows that and it is going to happen.

Everyone is telling me I am not the audience to his columns - OK, I guess he is for the masses OK, I understand that 100% and I'm glad that is the case. But I still wish he has more insight to pass along to the masses.

JOB's contract is up at the end of the season - no NBA Pacers coach has ever coached more than 4 seasons, so we know he isn't going to be re-signed

I would have respected Bob if he devoted 1 paragraph to Jim O'Brien saying he will not be back that is a fact and then spending the rest of his column on Bird, Morway and - that could have been a better column.

vnzla81
01-27-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm not suggesting he shouldn't state the obvious, but how about moving the ball a little bit. How about stating the obvious and then going into what the next step should be. And no sorry telling Bird to coach the team is as insightful as telling Simon to coach his own team.

Plus we all know Jim is gone either soon or after the next 38 games. But then if I read another post about how Jim needs to be fired I'm going to blow a gasket. OK, everyone knows that and it is going to happen.

Kravitz is writing for the average fan, why is he going to tell them who he thinks should be the next coach if the majority of them are not even going to know who that is?

beast23
01-27-2011, 11:12 AM
I was just playing off of Roaming Gnome's post. Didn't mean to offend you. My apologies.

A sports columnist for a local newspaper is paid to offer commentary and voice his opinions on the local sports scene. But most importantly, he is paid to sell newspapers. In a market like Indy, we are lucky to have a writer as good at what he does, as Bob Kravitz is.

It is not his job to break to information or news.

You are in the tiny minority of local people who know what is going on with the Pacers on a day-to-day basis. You are not his target audience with this, or any other piece about the Pacers.

This is for everybody else who doesn't really follow the Pacers or the NBA anymore. Which, frankly, is most of the people who read the Star.
This is very similar to what I was preparing, until I blew up my entire post by hitting the wrong *&%^&$$ keys.

I think your point is exactly correct. We are not casual fans. When was the last time we learned anything from reading one of Kravitz's columns about our team? Probably never.

But how many of us read each and every one of Kravitz's columns? Probably most of us.

Kravitz does his job very well. He offers nothing more than an opinion regarding a topic which promotes discussion and want folks to buy a newspaper if for nothing more than to read his next column. You can't do that by posturing yourself in the gray area, you accomplish it by rendering your opinion on one extreme or another. That's what Kravitz does.

How many times have you gone to work to be met with teasing by or disussion with a coworker who had read one of Kravitz's articles that morning or the day before? Regarding IU, the Pacers and the Colts, it has happened to me on several occassions.

As Kravitz's opinion aligns with most of ours in this case, I think he does a great service to us because it will result in more casual fans talking about the situation.

-----

On another note, how many of you feel as though what is going on right now does nothing but to discourage prospective FAs that we might want to pursue this summer?

I mean, come on. Unless a player is living under a rock, he's got to be saying to himself "I don't know what the hell is going on there, but I am soooo glad I'm not a part of it."

And to me, right here, right now, this is just as important a reason to dump O'Brien as the potential harm he might be doing to our players. The coaching of this team is more likely than not harming the ability of the franchise to make the best use of its cap space this summer.

If a prospective higher-end FA does not know for certain that O'Brien is no longer part of the equation, then I don't believe the Pacers will even be on his radar regardless of the amount of the offer that we make to his agent.

PacerGuy
01-27-2011, 11:14 AM
IMO Larry is being ripped by both fans & non-fans, when some of the actions he as been MADE TO DO have likely been the result of a game we don't see or understand: SIMON SAY'S!....

.... Larry has likely ben told JO'B will be your only coach this year, that he will not given permission to hire anyone else, so Larry must hold his nose & support JO'B & hope it & can work for a few more short months. He may have been told he is allowed to coach himself, but we all know he does not want that....

.... It seems easy to blame Larry for all this (& he definately must own some), but where is the Simon family? Why do I not see any "Open Letters" to them? Where is the Herb we all should be looking for? Does anyone here really think the Herb has said he wants to make a move as he can see/feel public opinion, but Larry is refusing? No! If THEY will not allow him to do what he feels he needs to, or must run as he was/is told, what is he to really do?

Don't want to toot my own horn, but I will just a bit. Wrote this in another thread yesterday. Looks like Crapitz read my post & did write an "Open letter to Herb!" ;)

Anyway, I think people might be reeding too much into Pritchard. C.Ford shot it down, & IMO this is not how Larry has done anything else (out in public) so why start now?

Also, as for Bob Crapitz....
The whole "columnist vs. journalist is kinda pointless. Yes, Crapitz is someone to make opinions & stir the pot more then one who provides that, but the problem w/ that is IMO Bob still considers himself a journalist when he is not - he is Ms. Manners w/o the ediquet, he is Dear Abby w/o any good advise. Bob is not very good IMO. He regergitates what others say & what he reads. He exposed himself when he did local radio. I listened to him not know player names, got countless facts whong & would talk cap savings & not even get those epiring correct. Then when a caller or show topic was good, he'sd have an article a few days later & use the show fodder as his own. Weak!
Bob is also a football guy much more so then basketball, just as he was in Denver. He shows up to Pacer games for the buttet & to BS w/ the members of the press, nothing more. I'm told (& reading his Pacer "insight" over the years I believe it) he is lucky to catch a replay or two , or catch glimpses of the game on the monitor over the shoulder of the bartender. Joke!

CircleCity3318
01-27-2011, 11:15 AM
Kravitz also had an issue with the retractable roof not being used much and the amount of money it added to the project... to not be used much...

Ya I never understood that as well, why build that when they have specific temperatures that won't allow them to open it? Seems like a waste of money to me.

graphic-er
01-27-2011, 11:23 AM
Simons input on this team has been, save money and cut costs. Thats why JOB is still here. Simon has probably told Bird that he is done pay coaches and players for not being here.

PacerGuy
01-27-2011, 11:24 AM
Ya I never understood that as well, why build that when they have specific temperatures that won't allow them to open it? Seems like a waste of money to me.

It has nothing to do with weather, tempature, day/night or anything else.
Like EVERYTHING else over there, it is 110% up to Bill & what HE wants.

Speed
01-27-2011, 11:26 AM
One really good point, I think he makes that I hadn't considered.

If its the coach, get him out now. If its the players, Bird/Morway have done poor job.

Pretty simplistic, but something I hadn't really heard articulated, so succinctly.

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 11:31 AM
Simons input on this team has been, save money and cut costs. Thats why JOB is still here. Simon has probably told Bird that he is done pay coaches and players for not being here.

That is really an unfair characterization. Did you follow the team from 1994 through 2005? Simons spent tons of money

CircleCity3318
01-27-2011, 11:33 AM
It has nothing to do with weather, tempature, day/night or anything else.
Like EVERYTHING else over there, it is 110% up to Bill & what HE wants.

No there is a specific temperature that it cat get to outside at any point in the game. I'm not positive but I think the temp may be 43, not positive though.

graphic-er
01-27-2011, 11:33 AM
That is really an unfair characterization. Did you follow the team from 1994 through 2005? Simons spent tons of money

Of course I did, Simon practically paid for half of conseco. But its been clear for several seasons now that Simon has no desire to spend any money on this team. Maybe its because his financial partner passed away?

aaronb
01-27-2011, 11:40 AM
Of course I did, Simon practically paid for half of conseco. But its been clear for several seasons now that Simon has no desire to spend any money on this team. Maybe its because his financial partner passed away?


Or he rightly had no faith in its current direction.

CircleCity3318
01-27-2011, 11:44 AM
No there is a specific temperature that it cat get to outside at any point in the game. I'm not positive but I think the temp may be 43, not positive though.

http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/About/Trivia/

Last paragraph of facts, the temperature can't be below 40.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 11:45 AM
Of course I did, Simon practically paid for half of conseco. But its been clear for several seasons now that Simon has no desire to spend any money on this team. Maybe its because his financial partner passed away?

The Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy contracts think you are insane.

CableKC
01-27-2011, 11:50 AM
So do you mean to imply that Paul George has quit already? You are just being as overdramatic just like Kravitz. Kravitz is a crap journalist, always has been.
You have to admit that when a large contingent of PD members agree with Kravitz ( who PD has agreed has been a rather crap-tastic journalist when it comes to covering the Pacers ) on this very issue, that either Kravitz is onto something or that he's been reading a lot of PD posts about JO'B AND Bird over the last month and simply expanding on what many have posted here by people that are considered more than just "casual" fans.

My guess is that it's a combination of both.....;)

graphic-er
01-27-2011, 12:07 PM
The Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy contracts think you are insane.

No i'm just talking about going out and signing difference makers instead of one year rentals. Either you go into full rebuild mode and play those young guys or your go out and spend some real money and bring in a difference maker. Instead we have been signing a bunch of rental players who are all about the same skill level, thus our lack of a clear rotation. We got some bad contracts, but almost every team in the league has some bad contracts.

If Simon was willing to spend some money we'd have a new coach by now. But instead Bird has to tow this line of "I'm gonna stick with my guy cause I told him it was gonna be rough." That's not how the NBA works. Teams don't stick with crap if they knew they were gonna be crap. They stick with crap because that can't afford to buy something new.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 12:09 PM
We didn't have any money to sign difference makers!

grace
01-27-2011, 12:13 PM
People can say what they want about Kravitz as a journalist, but he's exactly right in this case.

Yes. I really hate it when I agree with :kravitz:

90'sNBARocked
01-27-2011, 12:14 PM
That is really an unfair characterization. Did you follow the team from 1994 through 2005? Simons spent tons of money

They did spend money before , in the years you mentioned, however the last two years , I do believe , has been about cutting costs

PaceBalls
01-27-2011, 12:17 PM
The Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy contracts think you are insane.

Can we please just have one thread without someone bashing Troy Murphy!

j/k ;)

McKeyFan
01-27-2011, 12:17 PM
Plus we all know Jim is gone either soon or after the next 38 games. But then if I read another post about how Jim needs to be fired I'm going to blow a gasket. OK, everyone knows that and it is going to happen.

JOB's contract is up at the end of the season - no NBA Pacers coach has ever coached more than 4 seasons, so we know he isn't going to be re-signed

I would have respected Bob if he devoted 1 paragraph to Jim O'Brien saying he will not be back that is a fact and then spending the rest of his column on Bird, Morway and - that could have been a better column.
UB, I have to disagree with you here. Several members on this board are concerned about whether JOB will be here again next year.

As shocked as you may be that he returns, many of us were just as shocked when his option was picked up for this year.

Larry Bird is a stubborn mule, and he just might rehire JOB to prove his point.

Okay, maybe not. But you just can't be so sure.

Until we have some assurances somewhere from TPTB that JOB is gone this summer, there will continue to be anger, denunciations, boos, and paper bags on heads. And rightly so.

Kravitz can't write on the "fact" that JOB won't be back, because that has not been established. And because it hasn't, the masses are storming the Bastille.

graphic-er
01-27-2011, 12:19 PM
We didn't have any money to sign difference makers!

Sure we did, just none that Simon wanted to give up.

Sollozzo
01-27-2011, 12:41 PM
Kravitz also had an issue with the retractable roof not being used much and the amount of money it added to the project... to not be used much...




The roof is the biggest joke I've ever seen. 70 or so million dollars (roughly 10% of the entire cost of the stadium) for something that is opened roughly one game per season. I was at the Chiefs game in early October when the roof was closed despite the fact that it was an unseasonably warm 80 degrees with abundant sunshine as far as the eyes could see. Somehow a warm 80 degree day wasn't ideal for opening the roof.

And if you are going to pay all that money for a roof, at least spend the 50 extra cents for a drainage system......

It wasn't good enough for Irsay that he was getting a taxpayer funded stadium that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, no, he just had to have that roof that was going to be open once a year (and the Peyback Bowl and maybe a pre-season game). But why wouldn't he demand it? It's not his money and he gets to keep all revenues from stadium events. So of course he's going to want it to be as nice as it can since all the money goes straight into his pocket. If an open air stadium brings an extra event or two to town (which it probably doesn't) then that's more money for him. If not, then oh well, it's not his money. Easy to be reckless and demanding with money when it's not your own.

Trader Joe
01-27-2011, 12:51 PM
Sure we did, just none that Simon wanted to give up.

We were way over the cap, how would we have signed a difference maker?

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 01:00 PM
UB, I have to disagree with you here. Several members on this board are concerned about whether JOB will be here again next year.



They are just wrong then. or what I think they are just wanting to complain about something that hasn't happened yet nor will it ever happen.

So you think Jim will be the Pacers coach longer than any other NBA coach they have ever had. Because if he coaches into next season at all that is what he'll be. That makes no sense.

I think I have a very good instinct on this type of stuff mainly just from experience. If Jim lasts the rest of the season he will not be brought back

Keep in mind they would have to sign him to a new contract.

They cannot come out now and say that Jim woon't be coming back. That would cause things to get even worse if TPTB did that right now.

Mackey_Rose
01-27-2011, 02:39 PM
They are just wrong then. or what I think they are just wanting to complain about something that hasn't happened yet nor will it ever happen.

So you think Jim will be the Pacers coach longer than any other NBA coach they have ever had. Because if he coaches into next season at all that is what he'll be. That makes no sense.

I think I have a very good instinct on this type of stuff mainly just from experience. If Jim lasts the rest of the season he will not be brought back

Keep in mind they would have to sign him to a new contract.

They cannot come out now and say that Jim woon't be coming back. That would cause things to get even worse if TPTB did that right now.

You have experience regarding how Larry Bird deals with his own hand-picked coach having an unprecedented level of ineptitude, yet remaining as coach for beyond the necessary timeframe once already?

Unclebuck
01-27-2011, 02:44 PM
You have experience regarding how Larry Bird deals with his own hand-picked coach having an unprecedented level of ineptitude, yet remaining as coach for beyond the necessary timeframe once already?

Yes I do.


Of course not. I have experience in following the Pacers and the NBA rather closely for 30 years and feel like I have a sense for when a change is going to be made.

But I'm sure you knew what I meant.

You can think I'm full of it, but I think my instincts are pretty good. But really this is an easy one

he let Rick go after 4 years.

Justin Tyme
01-27-2011, 02:56 PM
They cannot come out now and say that Jim woon't be coming back. That would cause things to get even worse if TPTB did that right now.


How can it get worse? Worse in what way? The players already know he's a lameduck coach.

Just asking your opinion. If numerous core players demanded J'OB be fired, do you think Bird would fire Jimmy?

What about if Granger and Hibbert said they wanted to be traded b4 the traded deadline if a new coach wasn't brought in now?

I guess I'm wondering how much influence players could have on getting a new coach.

beast23
01-27-2011, 03:22 PM
How can it get worse? Worse in what way? The players already know he's a lameduck coach.

Just asking your opinion. If numerous core players demanded J'OB be fired, do you think Bird would fire Jimmy?

What about if Granger and Hibbert said they wanted to be traded b4 the traded deadline if a new coach wasn't brought in now?

I guess I'm wondering how much influence players could have on getting a new coach.Probably not nearly as much influence as the actons of the collective fan base.

The players are under contract and are going to "be there" regardless of their opinion expressed to Bird. On the other hand, the fans are under no obligation to renew their season tickets.

I agree with Buck. Unless Bird is deaf, he knows exactly why more and more fans are staying away from games... and that he has to do something about it. It's not IF, it's WHEN.

The JOB situation is probably a huge inner struggle for Bird. On one hand, he has all but promised that JOB will be here through the end of the season. On the other hand, Bird has always been one to deal with problems quickly and directly. If there is a problem, it needs to be handled today, not procrastinated about and put off until tomorrow. I think that is more or less how he has approached most things.

Kraft
01-27-2011, 03:27 PM
The roof is the biggest joke I've ever seen. 70 or so million dollars (roughly 10% of the entire cost of the stadium) for something that is opened roughly one game per season. I was at the Chiefs game in early October when the roof was closed despite the fact that it was an unseasonably warm 80 degrees with abundant sunshine as far as the eyes could see. Somehow a warm 80 degree day wasn't ideal for opening the roof.

And if you are going to pay all that money for a roof, at least spend the 50 extra cents for a drainage system......

It wasn't good enough for Irsay that he was getting a taxpayer funded stadium that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, no, he just had to have that roof that was going to be open once a year (and the Peyback Bowl and maybe a pre-season game). But why wouldn't he demand it? It's not his money and he gets to keep all revenues from stadium events. So of course he's going to want it to be as nice as it can since all the money goes straight into his pocket. If an open air stadium brings an extra event or two to town (which it probably doesn't) then that's more money for him. If not, then oh well, it's not his money. Easy to be reckless and demanding with money when it's not your own.

I went to the Jags game in Year 1. Beautiful 70ish day. Dome closed. Really the only thing that spoiled my front-row seats.

I don't care if it's not open in 35-degree weather. Whatever. But fans are getting screwed on the nice days.

BillS
01-27-2011, 03:27 PM
Here's where I get irritated at the timing of this column, as if it was written before the Orlando game and just made ready to print if they lost.

The time the game went completely out of control, going from 6 points down to 17 points down, was the time when the young guys people wanted to see play were on the floor (AJ, Tyler, Granger, George, Hibbert). From that point on, the game actually see-sawed back in forth around that 17-point margin - even the point in the 3rd quarter where things looked worst the only "veteran" on the floor was Dunleavy (along with DC, Hibbert, Tyler, and Granger). One could say that if that run doesn't happen, the game stays well within reach and the outcome might have been a whole lot different.

So, if the game became "embarrassing" after the young guys got schooled, but they were on the floor and given the "opportunity to play through their mistakes" :puke: - both of which many people have said they WANTED to see even if it meant we lost - why NOW is the screaming for JOB's head at its highest point? Why NOW is this article some kind of wake-up call for the masses?

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 03:28 PM
People who knock Kravitz as a columnist because they don't like the ideas and opinions he puts in his columns, do not understand the point of a newspaper columnist.

I don't like him because he reminds me of a drama loving diva. I don't like his columns about the colts either. It really has nothing to do with this article, its a immediate response to seeing his name.

joeyd
01-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Friday will be the first game all season that I have missed, purely because I just don't want to go. I gave my ticket to a buddy and after sitting in Conseco and watching that embarrassment that happened last night, I don't feel at all bad about not going Friday.

I cannot blame you for not going after last night's debacle. But if everyone did this, I'm concerned that the message would be misinterpreted by the players---that we have quit ON THEM.

I have to think there are ways to show displeasure with the status quo while still be supportive of the team. If no one shows up, the Pacers have every right to move.

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 03:47 PM
There weren't many fans showing up to begin with, they aren't coming back until we are consistently winning. The fans got Walsh to trade Jackson and Harrington for Dunleavy and Murphy.You see that bringing any fans back? Judging from history, the fans at some point will more than likely hate our next coach as well. I don't see any value in an interim coach babysitting the team, while we wait for a real coach to be hired. I am even more stroongly against rushing to hire a long term coach now unless the one we want is interested and available. Unless the replacement is waiting, I think it is the smart move to just let the fans deal with it, for the rest of the season, and make sure we bring in the guy we want. The people who are appeased by any new coach will still be appeased next season.

My point is simply that you can't build a team around the ups and downs of a fan-base's support. Did anyone check out the coach hate on the heat board at the beginning of the season? It made this place look like disney land (well maybe not but you get the point.)


Probably not nearly as much influence as the actons of the collective fan base.

The players are under contract and are going to "be there" regardless of their opinion expressed to Bird. On the other hand, the fans are under no obligation to renew their season tickets.

I agree with Buck. Unless Bird is deaf, he knows exactly why more and more fans are staying away from games... and that he has to do something about it. It's not IF, it's WHEN.

The JOB situation is probably a huge inner struggle for Bird. On one hand, he has all but promised that JOB will be here through the end of the season. On the other hand, Bird has always been one to deal with problems quickly and directly. If there is a problem, it needs to be handled today, not procrastinated about and put off until tomorrow. I think that is more or less how he has approached most things.

PaceBalls
01-27-2011, 04:00 PM
I am sure there will be a lot of hate for whoever the new coach is eventually. You can't please everyone. Someone will always be unhappy with whatever offense or defense a coach installs. Someone will always rant about not playing the rookie etc...

However, there are different degrees of hate. Jim has maxed that out, I can't recall any coach being more hated by the Indiana fan base (what little is left). He surpassed Isiah Thomas early last season. I think at this point anyone would be a better option.

Since86
01-27-2011, 04:02 PM
The smart move would have to been not picking up Jim's contract option.

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 04:12 PM
The smart move would have to been not picking up Jim's contract option.

maybe

Since86
01-27-2011, 04:23 PM
Maybe? This season has been good how?

If he doesn't pick up his option, then the Pacers have a different coach. The absolute worst case scenario would be that the fanbase, and players, don't like him and can't wait til he is gone. Which sounds a lot like the position that we're in now.

Anything else is better.

Trophy
01-27-2011, 04:33 PM
I'm very grateful to have Simon as our owner.

He's a very powerful owner and Mel was too. They do whatever it takes for this franchise to remain strong.

I don't think he'll want Bird to leave, but he'll play a huge role in finding a new coach.

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 04:47 PM
Maybe? This season has been good how?

If he doesn't pick up his option, then the Pacers have a different coach. The absolute worst case scenario would be that the fanbase, and players, don't like him and can't wait til he is gone. Which sounds a lot like the position that we're in now.

Anything else is better.

I think Bird wanted everybody to be expiring together. He wanted a situation where whomever is in charge next year has a clean slate to work with. Whatever direction Simon wants to go this off season he can. If Larry retires the new GM can bring in a completely new staff without any complications. There is also the issue of who possibly wanted to come here last sumer vs. this summer. These type of issues are enough to make my response maybe(I don't know).

Your worse case scenario includes a coach whose contract isn't expiring.

Since86
01-27-2011, 04:57 PM
So what? There is no guarantee that the coach will be as disliked as the current one.

However there is a guarantee that if there was a different coach, he/she cannot be more disliked than the current one.

If people dislike him/her just as much as Jim, you're in the same position with the outside chance that it could get better. But let's be 100% honest, who ever they brought in would atleast have a one year grace period.

So this board might still be discussing their shortcomings, it wouldn't be anywhere near this level.

That is a plus.

Anyway you slice it, the Pacers would have been in a better position this season with a new coach. If for the simple fact that you don't have season ticket holders saying they won't renew their tickets. Which obviously is happening.

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 05:04 PM
I didn't call him a crap journalist because his opinion. I called him a crap journalist (ok opinion collumnist) because there is no more value to what he writes than any other poster on this board. The fact that he said something ads nothing to the debate. I respect the opinions of most the people I aurgue with here far more than I do Kravitz.


You have to admit that when a large contingent of PD members agree with Kravitz ( who PD has agreed has been a rather crap-tastic journalist when it comes to covering the Pacers ) on this very issue, that either Kravitz is onto something or that he's been reading a lot of PD posts about JO'B AND Bird over the last month and simply expanding on what many have posted here by people that are considered more than just "casual" fans.

My guess is that it's a combination of both.....;)

xIndyFan
01-27-2011, 05:17 PM
I didn't call him a crap journalist because his opinion. I called him a crap journalist (ok opinion collumnist) because there is no more value to what he writes than any other poster on this board. The fact that he said something ads nothing to the debate. I respect the opinions of most the people I aurgue with here far more than I do Kravitz.

:iagree: but he is a better writer and speller than most of us. even if he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say, he does say it better. :laugh:

spazzxb
01-27-2011, 05:27 PM
Exactly!!!!


...and that is where you fail!!

Columnist deal in opinions! Journalist deal in facts.
Kravitz has NEVER been a journalist, he has been a columnist since I've heard of him...

I know... Kravitz is working against your contrarian agenda so you have to call his work crap... I understand!

Your just a Kravitz apologist so nothing you have to say could ever be of any value. Everyone should just ignore you.
:nunchuck:

BRushWithDeath
01-27-2011, 05:30 PM
I didn't call him a crap journalist because his opinion. I called him a crap journalist (ok opinion collumnist) because there is no more value to what he writes than any other poster on this board. The fact that he said something ads nothing to the debate. I respect the opinions of most the people I aurgue with here far more than I do Kravitz.

The people don't have a pulpit to speak from like Bob Kravitz. Even if he is just rehashing the same stuff we've been saying for a long time and certain people are tired of reading it, the vast majority of people that have a passing interest in the Pacers don't read anything like this unless Kravitz writes it.

Justin Tyme
01-27-2011, 06:34 PM
If no one shows up, the Pacers have every right to move.


AND the fans have a RIGHT to see a good team play TOO! You think Herb Simon continues to patronize a restaurant who's food gets worse every year with the promise it will be better next year?

Fans have a RIGHT to get their money's worth. They work hard for their money and demand value for their money. They are being cheated with the entertainment they are experiencing now, so they have a right to spend their money on whatever gives them a better value for their hard earned money. If the customers aren't coming, then ownership needs to do whatever it takes to get the public to spend their money on "their" entertainment. Those businesses that don't won't survive. I see businesses close all the time, b/c they couldn't get the public to spent money at their business due to the public not liking the value they got in return for spending their hard earned money at that business.

40 years ago I started collecting matches from restaurants where I had eaten. They are in a large fish type bowl beside me. Most went out of business, b/c they weren't meeting customers expectations.

Hicks
01-28-2011, 11:16 AM
Maybe? This season has been good how?

If he doesn't pick up his option, then the Pacers have a different coach. The absolute worst case scenario would be that the fanbase, and players, don't like him and can't wait til he is gone. Which sounds a lot like the position that we're in now.

Anything else is better.

Makes sense now, and it makes sense if you hated Jim being our coach when it happened, but if I'm remembering correctly, he got that option picked up at the start of the 2009-2010 season, which was just before things got ugly. The past two seasons, I think he had more good will with a large portion of the fanbase. Especially with that 2008-2009 team we had just watched months earlier that seemed to play everyone hard.

PaceBalls
01-28-2011, 11:31 AM
Makes sense now, and it makes sense if you hated Jim being our coach when it happened, but if I'm remembering correctly, he got that option picked up at the start of the 2009-2010 season, which was just before things got ugly. The past two seasons, I think he had more good will with a large portion of the fanbase. Especially with that 2008-2009 team we had just watched months earlier that seemed to play everyone hard.

There was a lot of blame to go around that excused Jim from all of the hatred. There was the Tinsley situation, in which most people (not me) thought Jim was the hero and did the right thing. Also, there was the trade that brought Murphy and Dunleavy which was not Jim's fault, even though he may have lobbied for it. There was also the expectation that Dun and Murph would get better and not be so gawd awful on defense if given enough time. There has always been the excuse of having ALOT of new players every year to try to get acclimated to the system.

I think the tipping point was the insane, excessive use of Troy Murphy last season, especially after the 5 game win streak, and the corresponding 9 game losing streak (or however many losses it was) after Murphy came back. Having to endure watching Troy Murphy play 30+ mpg all year after seeing the results of how good the team was without him, justified or not, really sealed the deal, at least for me. The excuses ran out at that point.

What is interesting is how bad we are without Troy. Or the fact that we are just as bad. What does that tell us?

Since86
01-28-2011, 12:30 PM
Makes sense now, and it makes sense if you hated Jim being our coach when it happened, but if I'm remembering correctly, he got that option picked up at the start of the 2009-2010 season, which was just before things got ugly. The past two seasons, I think he had more good will with a large portion of the fanbase. Especially with that 2008-2009 team we had just watched months earlier that seemed to play everyone hard.

There were a good chunk of posters questioning the decision when it was made. It didn't make any sense to give him a 4th year, when you didn't even know how the 3rd year was even going to start playing out.

Jim brought the stupid excuse out that he didn't think he would be an effective coach, because without the guarantee he was going to be back the next season he would become a lame duck coach. Uhhhh, yeah.......



And for the record, I didn't like the Jim hire from the very first day based solely on his offensive/defensive philosophy contradictions. Some of us actually did see how this was going to end.

oxxo
01-28-2011, 12:59 PM
Kravitz is not writing this article for us. He's writing it for everyone else. Anyone who comes to this board is far more hardcore than the average fan or casual watcher. There's no reason to bash how his article offers 'little insight'. Almost no piece in the national/local media is going to offer us insight.

spazzxb
01-28-2011, 02:55 PM
He isn't writing it for this board but it is being presented to the board and therefore it is reasonable to talk about the value of the commentary. While it is an accurate depiction of a lot of fans feelings, the content has no more value here than if anyone else started a thread to vent there frustrations. This threads only real usefulness is to inform people this article was in the paper, which should be done. I try not to directly insult posters but its fun to take a jab at Kravitz from time to time, I think he is fair game. I am also from Fort wayne, where the Pacers don't make the paper, so I have no real insight to the Indy news environment. I see Kravitz articles about plenty though and I don't have a lot of respect for his "opinion", I don't even really see his articles as his opinion, its just what he through together.

Hicks
01-28-2011, 02:58 PM
There were a good chunk of posters questioning the decision when it was made. It didn't make any sense to give him a 4th year, when you didn't even know how the 3rd year was even going to start playing out.

Jim brought the stupid excuse out that he didn't think he would be an effective coach, because without the guarantee he was going to be back the next season he would become a lame duck coach. Uhhhh, yeah.......



And for the record, I didn't like the Jim hire from the very first day based solely on his offensive/defensive philosophy contradictions. Some of us actually did see how this was going to end.

I addressed folks such as yourself already with 'it makes sense if you hated Jim being our coach when it happened.'

Since86
01-28-2011, 03:19 PM
I know you did, but I'm saying there were posters that didn't dislike him from the beginning, who didn't have much of a problem with him when the option was picked up, who thought the decision didn't make much sense.

Some questioned the move, even when they really weren't questioning Jim totally as the coach.

It's just a dumb business practice, because you never know what is going to happen for a full year. There wouldn't have been any issue, outside of Jim's feelings, if TPTB would have simply took a wait and see approach before they made the decision to give Jim a full fourth year.

Bball
01-30-2011, 12:06 AM
You could even argue that if the players wanted any part of a 4th O'Brien season they would work their butts off to play for him in his 3rd season so that he'd get his 4th season extension after the 3rd season.

Of course didn't O'Brien make the point if you wanted him developing young players then you had to give him that 4th year extension (prior to year 3) or otherwise he'd be in total win now and win often mode and couldn't risk any developmental minutes? How does that line up with his recent comments? Capt Contradiction strikes again?