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View Full Version : Jim O'Brien interview with Mike Wells 1-26-11



Peck
01-26-2011, 03:26 AM
Enjoy

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110126/SPORTS04/101260342/1062/SPORTS04/-think-we-ll-make-playoffs-

Written by
Mike Wells

Indiana Pacers coach Jim O'Brien has publicly criticized his players. He constantly tinkers with his rotation, too.

With just 41 regular-season games remaining on his contract, O'Brien doesn't plan to change his approach.

At 16-25, the Pacers appear to be on their way to their fourth straight losing season under O'Brien. But despite their shortcomings, he said his team can qualify for the postseason.

"I think we'll make the playoffs," O'Brien said after practice Tuesday. "I think our team will hit a very nice stride; we're a half-game out of a playoff spot right now."

The Pacers, who are ninth in the Eastern Conference, open the second half of the season tonight against the Orlando Magic at Conseco Fieldhouse. O'Brien offered his thoughts on a variety of topics.

Question: Do you feel like your job status comes down to these final 41 games?

Answer: I don't look at my job like that at all. I look at the joy there is in coaching this group of guys. I think when you start worrying about things other than improving your team and teaching and getting your guys better on a daily basis, you're doing a disservice to your job.

Q: Is it frustrating that you're at the halfway point of the season and still adjusting the lineup?

A: It's not frustrating. You're trying to find the right balance and the right rotation that will allow you to play winning basketball. If you're not playing winning basketball, then you're always going to tinker with the lineup. Nobody gets a free pass from the standpoint of their playing time. If people are not playing at the level where I feel it gives us the best chance of winning, then I'll adjust. You have Danny (Granger), who is going to get his minutes. Darren (Collison) is playing at a pretty good and consistent level. Other than that, I'm trying to find the right combinations.

Q: You have players going from being inactive to getting minutes in the rotation. Can you explain your rationale behind it?

A: It does change because we're looking for the right combinations and you can't dress everybody. I'm constantly looking at different situations. The guys know that. For an example, I'm looking at Paul (George) to see if he can give us more of a consistency than what we're getting from Brandon (Rush). What you can't do with a young team where the majority of the players are of equal levels of talent, is if they're not playing at the level you think they need to be playing at, you need to make changes. I'm never going to hesitate to do that, and I've shown that.

Q: You said you believe this team will be a playoff team. How will you feel if you don't make it considering how weak the bottom half of the Eastern Conference is?

A: Every year we haven't made the playoffs it has been disappointing. There's no reason why it'll be any different if we don't make it this season.

Q: Do you feel like your message is getting across to the players, or do you think you need to change your approach?

A: Absolutely (it is received). I see it in the growth in the team. We'll become a much better offensive team. Roy Hibbert will get his touch back in the low post. I think Tyler (Hansbrough) and (Collison) will continue to grow. I think we'll find the right rotation of players that will give us the best chance of winning.

Q: Roy has struggled for almost two months. What makes you think he'll find his groove again?

A: He works very hard. He's out before practice working. Roy has to understand there are a lot of ways to skin a cat. He can't worry about his shot so much. He can do things like passing the ball because he is a very good passer. He clogs up the middle defensively. He's doing some positive things, he's just not shooting at a high percentage, and I think that will change.

Q: You've been very open in talking about players who struggle. Roy hasn't handled the criticism well. Do you need to change the way you handle certain players?

A: Of course I'm aware of what I say. If somebody is struggling and for me to act like they're not struggling, that's downright ridiculous. He knows he's struggling. He's getting his shots and putting in the work. I believe he'll find his way out of it. We're struggling in low-post scoring, and if you have any ounce of knowledge about basketball it's pretty clear we're struggling in the low post. For me to say that, that's not being demeaning to anybody. That's stating the obvious.

Q: Will there come a point in the season where you make a complete youth movement and sit your veterans or do you feel like you can still compete while developing your young players?

A: You can win and develop talent. That's my job and that's what we'll continue to do. I think we'll succeed in the second half of the season. I think our young players will have a very strong part in helping us do both. They will develop and as a result, we will win at a level that will give us our best chance of being in the playoffs.

presto123
01-26-2011, 03:32 AM
Car dealers everywhere are salivating over their next great used car salesman.

Pacerfan
01-26-2011, 03:34 AM
It's going to be a long 3 months unless he consistently plays the younger guys....

CableKC
01-26-2011, 03:49 AM
I really get the impression that JO'B is very cerebral when it comes to Coaching. Sometimes, it's a blessing...other times...I think that he over thinks the situation ( hence the changing rotations ).

Dr. Awesome
01-26-2011, 03:57 AM
I really get the impression that JO'B is very cerebral when it comes to Coaching. Sometimes, it's a blessing...other times...I think that he over thinks the situation ( hence the changing rotations ).

When was the blessing? Did I miss it?

ilive4sports
01-26-2011, 04:05 AM
When was the blessing? Did I miss it?

Grace died years ago...

Dr. Awesome
01-26-2011, 04:09 AM
Grace died years ago...

So it's been a ghost posting on her name all this time? 0_0

tsm612
01-26-2011, 04:11 AM
Grace died years ago...

I pledge allegiance to the flag...

BornReady
01-26-2011, 05:00 AM
huh?

vnzla81
01-26-2011, 07:38 AM
Is this guy delusional or what? man I can't wait until this clown is gone, what a bunch of BS

daschysta
01-26-2011, 08:46 AM
You could argue that he has been playing youth friendly rotatiosn as of late. And it is a fact that he does get huge into stats. He isn't an idiot, he's just incredibly stubborn.

I really think he would be an amazing assistant coach somewhere, like he was for pitino.

He could compile his stats and make suggestions, but the real descision would fall to someone that can put them into context.

pwee31
01-26-2011, 08:54 AM
Why hasn't James Posey been inactive? He has struggle the majority of the season?

A: That's irrelevant

daschysta
01-26-2011, 09:46 AM
If he actually starts paul george and gives him major minutes i'll be satisfied until he isn't fired after this year.

beast23
01-26-2011, 09:48 AM
Grace died years ago...Bullchip! She's been on here posting several times a week.

Kegboy
01-26-2011, 10:04 AM
I'm not going to go as far as to question Jimmy's actual sanity, but it's pretty damn obvious he's operating on a much different wavelength than the rest of us where the team is concerned.

IOW, :losangeles:

Hicks
01-26-2011, 10:50 AM
That second to last answer confirms that he doesn't get it with regards to what Since, Sookie, and myself were saying in another thread.

HOOPFANATIC
01-26-2011, 11:01 AM
[QUOTE]Q: You said you believe this team will be a playoff team. How will you feel if you don't make it considering how weak the bottom half of the Eastern Conference is?

A: Every year we haven't made the playoffs it has been disappointing. There's no reason why it'll be any different if we don't make it this

Only disappointed?? I'll be a lot more than disappointed sitting here at home.

Eindar
01-26-2011, 11:17 AM
That second to last answer confirms that he doesn't get it with regards to what Since, Sookie, and myself were saying in another thread.

It's very odd to me how you make it to this level as a coach without understanding the basic concept that different people are best motivated differently.

As for Jim himself, I think he'd make an excellent college coach, or a good NBA assistant.

I Love P
01-26-2011, 12:17 PM
Why does he say he thinks we'll make the playoffs? Because he doesn't know...why cant he just come out and say, "We are making the playoffs!" Get this loser outta town.

daschysta
01-26-2011, 12:23 PM
Why does he say he thinks we'll make the playoffs? Because he doesn't know...why cant he just come out and say, "We are making the playoffs!" Get this loser outta town.

... Because he would look like an *** making a guarantee when we haven't made it the last 5 years? You expect anyone to give a guarantee like that?

MTM
01-26-2011, 12:25 PM
huh?

The BLESS-ING

:laugh:

vnzla81
01-26-2011, 12:27 PM
... Because he would look like an *** making a guarantee when we haven't made it the last 5 years? You expect anyone to give a guarantee like that?

He already looks like an a$$, he should at least make it interesting.

CableKC
01-26-2011, 12:32 PM
When was the blessing? Did I miss it?
I was speaking more in general terms for most people......I'm not talking about JO'B specifically.

However, I am sure that there are situations where many of you have complemented JO'B on doing some good Coaching to win some games ( probably way back in November ). His good Coaching that led to some wins could be attributed to him "overthinking" the situation.

CableKC
01-26-2011, 12:35 PM
That second to last answer confirms that he doesn't get it with regards to what Since, Sookie, and myself were saying in another thread.
Could you expand on what you're referring to?

what were you, Since86 and Sookie talking about?

I need some context here.

pacer4ever
01-26-2011, 12:45 PM
no one gets a free pass Jim thats BS Posey does and Mike does

MTM
01-26-2011, 12:45 PM
He sounds so defensive in this interview.

It's as if he knows that he is going to be gone after this season, and he knows that we know he's going to be gone , and we know that he knows that we know. You know?

grace
01-26-2011, 12:46 PM
I'm not going to go as far as to question Jimmy's actual sanity, but it's pretty damn obvious he's operating on a much different wavelength than the rest of us where the team is concerned.

IOW, :losangeles:

Thank you for not refuting my rumored death.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 12:50 PM
Could you expand on what you're referring to?

what were you, Since86 and Sookie talking about?

I need some context here.

I'd start here:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1144269#post1144269

And read through the rest of the thread.

grace
01-26-2011, 12:51 PM
I really get the impression that JO'B is very cerebral when it comes to Coaching. Sometimes, it's a blessing...other times...I think that he over thinks the situation ( hence the changing rotations ).


When was the blessing? Did I miss it?

It's a blessing when Phil Jackson is the coach. He's the only one who can pull off Zen bull :censored:.

BPump33
01-26-2011, 12:51 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0ZcZVugtF6w" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

Hicks
01-26-2011, 12:52 PM
Thank you for not refuting the my rumored death.

Grace lives!! :woohoo:

http://mikecs.net/prodigeek/images/ae9421b96df5_E02F/frodo_lives.jpg

cdash
01-26-2011, 01:06 PM
I guess I'm the only one who didn't really have a problem with the way he answered the questions. I mean, what else is he going to say? If he said anything other than what he did, everyone on here would be jumping his case about contradicting himself. The biggest problem for Obie at this point is that he is in a no win situation here. No matter what he says or does, the fans will rip him apart. We cried and pleaded to play the younger guys. We promised we would be happy when he did so. He is doing so. What do we do? We chastise him for not doing it earlier.

pacergod2
01-26-2011, 01:07 PM
Q: You said you believe this team will be a playoff team. How will you feel if you don't make it considering how weak the bottom half of the Eastern Conference is?

A: Every year we haven't made the playoffs it has been disappointing. There's no reason why it'll be any different if we don't make it this season.

The problem with his answer to this question is that he doesn't say, "We WILL make the playoffs". Where is his leadership?

His motivational tactics are poor, because he is so straight-forward. He is very matter of fact and that doesn't bode well with a young team. He is such an amazing basketball mind from an X's and O's standpoint and a very good teacher from that standpoint. I compare him to the life long student. He studies and studies and is always prepared. He just doesn't have the appropriate people skills to manage.

I think he makes the correct reads and assessments based on his methodology. His offense and defense are terrific. He adapts them to his players, but he just lacks consistency in their application due to his rotations.


Q: You have players going from being inactive to getting minutes in the rotation. Can you explain your rationale behind it?

A: It does change because we're looking for the right combinations and you can't dress everybody. I'm constantly looking at different situations. The guys know that. For an example, I'm looking at Paul (George) to see if he can give us more of a consistency than what we're getting from Brandon (Rush). What you can't do with a young team where the majority of the players are of equal levels of talent, is if they're not playing at the level you think they need to be playing at, you need to make changes. I'm never going to hesitate to do that, and I've shown that.

Here is my biggest problem. The consistency he is looking for doesn't come from young players. He isn't capable of motivating the young players properly. Their mindset is to just get out there and play. To be honest, we need more of that because that is where our best talent is. The NBA is a big boys league, where there are no room for excuses. That I understand, but there is also no excuse for having less ability (amongst the vets). I dislike that he doesn't play the young guys through their mistakes and inconsistencies. That is what it takes for them to develop. He knows that and in his support, we don't have good enough veterans to improve the young guys like the Spurs and Lakers do. We need to take more of an approach like OKC and POR from a few years ago. That is the biggest problem with our roster. The nice thing, recently, is that he has been playing the young guys, not more, just allowing them to make mistakes. He has ramped up Tyler and George's minutes appropriately. It still baffles me why McRoberts is inactive. Ford/DJones, Stephenson (until he gets through his court hearings), and Solo should be inactive every single game.

I just wish Bird would ship Ford, Dunleavy, and to a lesser extent Posey elsewhere (we will miss Posey's toughness and leadership). Get something for them. They are all solid players, but they are playing at the expense of the younger guys. Our team will only get better as they mature and I believe that begins with them getting those minutes. There are a lot of ways to hold the players accountable and give them the proper responsibility for those minutes. I agree completely with Jim in his outlook on holding players accountable, but he does it through minutes and it is killing our team's continuity. There is no upside to playing the vets more than about 10-15 minutes per game at this point in time. I would give Dun and Foster 15. Ford none. Posey about 5-10 situational minutes on average. I don't know that I would play him every night.

Edit: I clearly took a while to write this. Some people beat me to my points. MTM, agreed on the defensive part.... it almost seems like he is annoyed by the questioning, which I don't know that I can blame him.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 01:09 PM
No matter what he says or does, the fans will rip him apart. We cried and pleaded to play the younger guys. We promised we would be happy when he did so. He is doing so. What do we do? We chastise him for not doing it earlier.

This is inaccurate. The call for youth includes playing AJ AND Tyler AND Josh AND Paul. Consistently. More than token minutes for each. That still has yet to happen.

McKeyFan
01-26-2011, 01:10 PM
He sounds so defensive in this interview.

It's as if he knows that he is going to be gone after this season, and he knows that we know he's going to be gone , and we know that he knows that we know. You know?
Hell no, I don't know.

cdash
01-26-2011, 01:12 PM
This is inaccurate. The call for youth includes playing AJ AND Tyler AND Josh AND Paul. Consistently. More than token minutes for each. That still has yet to happen.

So now we are qualifying that statement? Gotcha. Even when that happens, you know what people are going to say? "Why didn't he go to this lineup sooner"

PacersAllDay
01-26-2011, 01:15 PM
Anyone want to give Wells props for asking tough questions?

Sookie
01-26-2011, 01:24 PM
So now we are qualifying that statement? Gotcha. Even when that happens, you know what people are going to say? "Why didn't he go to this lineup sooner"

And when will he go to that lineup? March?
You don't think that's a little late?

Besides that, not playing the younger guys was the tip of the iceberg in regards to JOB's poor coaching, and even poor rotations. So yes, it's an improvement..something that a majority of us said should have happened from the begining, but it is what it is, that doesn't mean that O'brien is a good coach now. We've just got other problems to fix. Like the offense..and defense..

pacer4ever
01-26-2011, 01:27 PM
And when will he go to that lineup? March?
You don't think that's a little late?

Besides that, not playing the younger guys was the tip of the iceberg in regards to JOB's poor coaching, and even poor rotations. So yes, it's an improvement..something that a majority of us said should have happened from the begining, but it is what it is, that doesn't mean that O'brien is a good coach now. We've just got other problems to fix. Like the offense..and defense..

If Posey is still playing in March i might :suicide4::suicide5: The young guys give us the best chance to win we should have played them from day one.

cdash
01-26-2011, 01:48 PM
And when will he go to that lineup? March?
You don't think that's a little late?

Besides that, not playing the younger guys was the tip of the iceberg in regards to JOB's poor coaching, and even poor rotations. So yes, it's an improvement..something that a majority of us said should have happened from the begining, but it is what it is, that doesn't mean that O'brien is a good coach now. We've just got other problems to fix. Like the offense..and defense..

I'm not siding with Obie here, I'm just pointing out that even if he does what we want him to do, we will still be angry with him for not doing it sooner.

BillS
01-26-2011, 01:50 PM
Thank you for not refuting my rumored death.

He was quietly campaigning to recover his title as Best Kegboy.

SMosley21
01-26-2011, 02:03 PM
Anyone want to give Wells props for asking tough questions?

That's not going to happen from most people around here. Wells does a great job covering the team from an unbiased viewpoint for the most part, yet a lot of people around here seem to have some problem with him.

Peck
01-26-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm not siding with Obie here, I'm just pointing out that even if he does what we want him to do, we will still be angry with him for not doing it sooner.

There is a lot of truth to what you say.

At this point in time, actually that point was a year ago, a very large number of fans (I won't say majority so as not to offend anyone but I believe majority) have just turned against him and nothing short of an NBA title run will turn that around.

He get's this team to the title round this season then we'll talk, short of that? I think the damage has been done.

Is it fair? Who's to say what's fair? He holds player accountable (well some anyway) for their play and production, some of us think that accountability is beyond just the players.

vnzla81
01-26-2011, 02:07 PM
Anyone want to give Wells props for asking tough questions?

No, shame on you Mike Wells and Indy star for making us a losing team and making Jim look like an a$$.......

Since86
01-26-2011, 02:10 PM
I'm not siding with Obie here, I'm just pointing out that even if he does what we want him to do, we will still be angry with him for not doing it sooner.

You're right, but at the same time that's not a reason why he SHOULDN'T do it now....


He is royally screwed either way, but the best path isn't to put your head down and try to bull your way through even more. It's to do the best job for this franchise, and the best job right now is to develop players.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 02:12 PM
So now we are qualifying that statement? Gotcha. Even when that happens, you know what people are going to say? "Why didn't he go to this lineup sooner"

What do you mean now it's qualified? I've been saying it since the start! Youth isn't playing some of them some of the time, it's playing all of them all of the time! I make an exception for Lance because of his dumbass behavior, but otherwise we're talking this:

DC/AJ
Rush/George
Granger/Dunleavy*
Hansbrough or McRoberts/McRoberts or Hansbrough
Hibbert/Foster*

*If it were up to me, both of these guys would be playing less minutes, with George being more of a backup to both the 2 and 3, and Josh being more of a backup to the 4 and the 5.

I've said that before, and I doubt it was only once.

And you're damned right people will say it should have been sooner, because we're right!

Hicks
01-26-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm not siding with Obie here, I'm just pointing out that even if he does what we want him to do, we will still be angry with him for not doing it sooner.

As we should be! It's not like we came to this conclusion later in the season, we knew going in this was the right thing to do.

Sookie
01-26-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm not siding with Obie here, I'm just pointing out that even if he does what we want him to do, we will still be angry with him for not doing it sooner.

Look, if JOB played the young guys (I'll leave Lance out because I don't know if Larry wants him to get time with the legal stuff..)

But you know, a simple rotation of
Collison/Price
Rush/George
Danny/Dun
Tyler/Josh
Roy/Josh/Foster

Came up with a decent offensive plan (because JOB's offense doesn't work with Collison. And quite frankly, this DC/AJ "make crap up" offense isn't any better. It essentially ends up with DC running around like a chicken with its head cut off when the PnR doesn't work, and AJ doing the exact same thing..every single dang time -pick n pop with the post player at the free throw line - teams will adjust. And that is not going to be fun for our second year point guards.)

Came up with a decent defensive plan.

And said "the guys playing the best during the game, will be the guys finishing the game." And actually went with it. (I know some like consistency, but I think a positive competitive situation like that encourages younger guys to play well, will help them all learn how to close games, and with younger guys..you have to go with the ones playing well in order to win)

I wouldn't say another word about O'brien. I don't expect any of the above to happen though.

cdash
01-26-2011, 02:20 PM
What do you mean now it's qualified? I've been saying it since the start! Youth isn't playing some of them some of the time, it's playing all of them all of the time! I make an exception for Lance because of his dumbass behavior, but otherwise we're talking this:

DC/AJ
Rush/George
Granger/Dunleavy*
Hansbrough or McRoberts/McRoberts or Hansbrough
Hibbert/Foster*

*If it were up to me, both of these guys would be playing less minutes, with George being more of a backup to both the 2 and 3, and Josh being more of a backup to the 4 and the 5.

I've said that before, and I doubt it was only once.

And you're damned right people will say it should have been sooner, because we're right!

Devil's advocate here: It's not like we have been winning games since we inserted the youth into the rotation. They are playing well, sure, but that road trip we just played was one of the most embarrassing stretches of the season.

Sookie
01-26-2011, 02:23 PM
Devil's advocate here: It's not like we have been winning games since we inserted the youth into the rotation. They are playing well, sure, but that road trip we just played was one of the most embarrassing stretches of the season.

If we play Paul George more against Golden State and the Trail Blazers, we win both games.

He was great defense on Ellis, and Rush struggled, but JOB went with Rush. And only played 7 minutes (scored 7 points) against the Trail Blazers.

Maybe if we decide not to leave Denver wide open from three, that game might have been closer too..

Mackey_Rose
01-26-2011, 02:24 PM
I'm with Hicks.

I hate that it has to be Tyler or Josh and Rush or George. It should be all of them!

Until he gets it right, I don't think it is unfair to complain. Just because he is heading in the right direction, it doesn't mean he has reached the destination.

We might be closer now, but we damned sure aren't there yet.

cdash
01-26-2011, 02:26 PM
If we play Paul George more against Golden State and the Trail Blazers, we win both games.

He was great defense on Ellis, and Rush struggled, but JOB went with Rush. And only played 7 minutes (scored 7 points) against the Trail Blazers.

Maybe if we decide not to leave Denver wide open from three, that game might have been closer too..

While I agree that he would have helped, I don't think you can automatically conclude that we would have won those games. You can play that, "if we would have done x and y different, we would have won the game" with nearly every loss on the schedule. The result is the result. I'm just pointing out that we haven't been going gangbusters since the youth movement started.

Peck
01-26-2011, 02:30 PM
Devil's advocate here: It's not like we have been winning games since we inserted the youth into the rotation. They are playing well, sure, but that road trip we just played was one of the most embarrassing stretches of the season.

But that is the overall problem and has been for the past two season at least.

We are no better or no worse when he plays the young players and in fact at times they do play better. But overall let's say they don't.

If you are no better with the veterans then what is the point in playing one year rentals major min. and leave the young players who are part of your long term plans with unstable minutes and lack of on court growth?

I still see plenty of James Posey, Jeff Foster, Mike Dunleavy on the floor. The latter two have earned their min. IMO, the first one has not.

NuffSaid
01-26-2011, 02:32 PM
It's going to be a long 3 months unless he consistently plays the younger guys....

I think if JOB goes with a younger, more athletic lineup (See image of core players for the future (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60664)) the rest of the way, the Pacers should be in pretty good shape to make a playoff run. I doubt they'll get higher than the 6th seed, but if they can turn things around and lockup that position a few weeks before season's end, it would be a big achievement for this franchise.

I don't want to see this team just squeek their way into the post-season. I want them to own a position, to control their own dystiny. If they can do that, the fans will start to come back whether they advance out of the 1st-round or not.


But that is the overall problem and has been for the past two season at least.

We are no better or no worse when he plays the young players and in fact at times they do play better. But overall let's say they don't.

If you are no better with the veterans then what is the point in playing one year rentals major min. and leave the young players who are part of your long term plans with unstable minutes and lack of on court growth?

I still see plenty of James Posey, Jeff Foster, Mike Dunleavy on the floor. The latter two have earned their min. IMO, the first one has not.
Two reasons I've been opposed to playing Posey in any capacity other than as a 3-pt specialist:

1) He takes away playing time from Jmac who I think this team needs.

2) He's no more consistent with his play than any of the younger players except when it comes to taking charges which is important; you always want any 2nd-change opportunity you can get! But that kind of play is needed in the closing minutes of tight games when you need a stop to either turn the tide in your favor or retain a lead. I haven't seen Posey make such an impact under either circumstance.

JOB keeps trying to fit Posey into odd situations, i.e., PF and Center. He doesn't play from either position very well, but in a designed play where you want a big body in the middle who can shot and your strategy is to pull his defender (Center) away from the paint, Posey fits that scheme fine...as long as he and all the other "shooters" are raining 3's. But that's been his problem along with most of our Guards - they can't seem to knock down that crucial 3pt shot to save their lives!

I'd rather JOB stayed with a traditional lineup and just rotate BRush or Dunleavy out and put George in OR keep Price, Granger, Dunleavy, George and Hibbert on the floor in those situations as discribed above to maximize perimeter shooting while giving very little away on defense in the Paint.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 02:33 PM
Devil's advocate here: It's not like we have been winning games since we inserted the youth into the rotation. They are playing well, sure, but that road trip we just played was one of the most embarrassing stretches of the season.

We weren't exactly setting the world on fire with TJ Ford, Mike Dunleavy, James Posey, and Jeff Foster, either.

We were never going to be anything more than a team capable of winning between about 30 and 40 games. If we lost with the vets it was because they're not that good, and if we lost with the youth it was either because they're not that great, or they just haven't developed enough yet.

Logically, you should go with the youth as you have as much to lose, but more to gain. You develop them faster, you excite the fan base a little more, and you learn what you have with them more quickly so you can make your next moves with more knowledge of your roster.

Sookie
01-26-2011, 02:36 PM
While I agree that he would have helped, I don't think you can automatically conclude that we would have won those games. You can play that, "if we would have done x and y different, we would have won the game" with nearly every loss on the schedule. The result is the result. I'm just pointing out that we haven't been going gangbusters since the youth movement started.

I am 99.9 percent confident we win.
Why? Against Golden State, Paul George was fantastic on Ellis defensively. How'd we lose that game? Brandon Rush couldn't guard Ellis (and he couldn't guard him the entire game, so it wasn't like Ellis did anything differently.).

The next game, once Brandon (and Collison actually) were playing poorly, George and Price playing well. We had a huge lead, and lost it. This to me, was a little more up in the air. But I'm pretty confident that playing the guy, Paul George, who was playing extremely well, only 7 minutes really really hurts a team.

This may seem like I'm simplifying things. But, honestly..especially against Golden state, I really think that we lost that game because of the rotation, particularly not playing PG enough.

cdash
01-26-2011, 02:38 PM
We weren't exactly setting the world on fire with TJ Ford, Mike Dunleavy, James Posey, and Jeff Foster, either.

We were never going to be anything more than a team capable of winning between about 30 and 40 games. If we lost with the vets it was because they're not that good, and if we lost with the youth it was either because they're not that great, or they just haven't developed enough yet.

Logically, you should go with the youth as you have as much to lose, but more to gain. You develop them faster, you excite the fan base a little more, and you learn what you have with them more quickly so you can make your next moves with more knowledge of your roster.

Whoa, wait a minute. I just read a post in another thread from you saying that this team has the talent to win 41 games. And the fact that they aren't going to win 41 games is on the coach. Are you backtracking here?

For the record, before the masses begin crucifying me, I'd much rather watch the youth play big minutes and lose games than see Ford and Posey out there getting torched. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

cdash
01-26-2011, 02:43 PM
I am 99.9 percent confident we win.
Why? Against Golden State, Paul George was fantastic on Ellis defensively. How'd we lose that game? Brandon Rush couldn't guard Ellis (and he couldn't guard him the entire game, so it wasn't like Ellis did anything differently.).

The next game, once Brandon (and Collison actually) were playing poorly, George and Price playing well. We had a huge lead, and lost it. This to me, was a little more up in the air. But I'm pretty confident that playing the guy, Paul George, who was playing extremely well, only 7 minutes really really hurts a team.

I disagree. The game winning shot that Monta hit was actually well defended by Rush, for the record. That's just an extremely tough shot to defend. Who is to say that Monta (a world class scorer and veteran no matter who is guarding him) wouldn't have used some veteran craftiness to start fooling the wide eyed rookie guarding him? He might have figured out ways to get PG off his feet and start drawing fouls against him. Again, I'm not saying that the result would have been the same, but I think it's extremely short sighted to be nearly 100% confident that the outcome of the game would have been different if we would have kept a rookie on one of the best scorers in the league for the end of the game.

90'sNBARocked
01-26-2011, 02:54 PM
This is inaccurate. The call for youth includes playing AJ AND Tyler AND Josh AND Paul. Consistently. More than token minutes for each. That still has yet to happen.

Exactly but if Jim cant even be consistent when playing the vets, how can one imagine him being consistent with the youngins?

graphic-er
01-26-2011, 02:58 PM
What's interesting here is perception vs reality. Honestly if you never seen JOB coach or seen a string of games...You'd read that interview and think "man this guy is pretty smart, he knows his basketball" Because he really does come off well when he is able to talk at length about topic. But then you contrast that with what actually happens on the court, its hard to take anything the man says seriously.

90'sNBARocked
01-26-2011, 03:02 PM
The Ultimate Politician

Jim Francis O'Brien

Since86
01-26-2011, 03:05 PM
What's interesting here is perception vs reality. Honestly if you never seen JOB coach or seen a string of games...You'd read that interview and think "man this guy is pretty smart, he knows his basketball" Because he really does come off well when he is able to talk at length about topic. But then you contrast that with what actually happens on the court, its hard to take anything the man says seriously.

That's evident when he talks about how he tinkers with the lineup. He tinkers with the lineup so often, it's impossible for the players to actually get adjusted to the changes. He changes it up, they play like that for a few games (if that) then he changes it again because he's not getting the results he's hoping for.

Well no ****! You have to be able to give them time and become comfortable with that rotation before you can accurately judge it.

He is like a robot. He doesn't value in the human part of the game.

"Oh, I see Carmelo is shooting 25% from three. Let's just let him shoot from 3 wideopen, that means his shooting will translate into 37.5% from 2pt range. I can live with that!!"

"Oh, you mean to tell me that other teams guarded him into shooting 25%, and he can shoot a lot higher percentage than that when left alone? Oh ****..... I didn't realize that part...."

On paper, yeah, great strategy. But humans rarely act like robots and perform the exact way they do on paper.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 03:54 PM
Whoa, wait a minute. I just read a post in another thread from you saying that this team has the talent to win 41 games. And the fact that they aren't going to win 41 games is on the coach. Are you backtracking here?

For the record, before the masses begin crucifying me, I'd much rather watch the youth play big minutes and lose games than see Ford and Posey out there getting torched. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I was referring to the entire roster with that statement. I think if you play the youth more than you play the vets, you have your best shot at 41 wins. If you don't, and/or you keep dicking around with the rotations and strategies and in-game adjustments, you look closer to a 30 win team.

McKeyFan
01-26-2011, 04:10 PM
I'm not siding with Obie here, I'm just pointing out that even if he does what we want him to do, we will still be angry with him for not doing it sooner.
Your polemic is too easy.

There will always be people on the fringe calling for JOB's head no matter what (or defending him).

The question is what is the majority of the board, or the consensus saying? In general I think the swings and moods of the board regarding JOB have been fairly level headed.

McKeyFan
01-26-2011, 04:16 PM
I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
What, is hell on strike?

He sure seems to need a lot of volunteers advocates around here.

cdash
01-26-2011, 04:19 PM
Your polemic is too easy.

There will always be people on the fringe calling for JOB's head no matter what (or defending him).

The question is what is the majority of the board, or the consensus saying? In general I think the swings and moods of the board regarding JOB have been fairly level headed.

My polemic? I hardly see what I'm doing as aggressive or refuting anyone's opinions. I'm playing devil's advocate.

There is no question about what the majority of the board is saying. And we will agree to disagree about "fairly level headed" mood swings and such from this board. At this point, we operate under a mob mentality. You speak up even a little bit in defense of anything Obie says or does, and people skewer you.

cdash
01-26-2011, 04:20 PM
What, is hell on strike?

He sure seems to need a lot of volunteers advocates around here.

Just ignore my posts then. No one is stopping you from doing so, and I certainly won't be offended. Sorry that my opinion isn't the same as yours.

Since86
01-26-2011, 04:33 PM
There is no question about what the majority of the board is saying. And we will agree to disagree about "fairly level headed" mood swings and such from this board. At this point, we operate under a mob mentality. You speak up even a little bit in defense of anything Obie says or does, and people skewer you.

I don't think anyone is "skewering" you first off. And secondly, of course people are going to jump on someone when their explanation of why Jim does things goes so far south as to say that in-game adjustments would be too confusing for the team to grasp, or something else similiarly silly.

(Like spazz's constant line about how Posey's minutes don't really matter, because he's the 10th man eventhough he's averaging just as many minutes as the starter.....)

90% of this board disagrees with the direction that Jim coaches. I think you're confusing "skewering" with merely just a number of different people putting in their two cents.

I can assure you that there isn't a concentrated effort, that I know of, to discredit and attack counter-arguments.

cdash
01-26-2011, 04:37 PM
I don't think anyone is "skewering" you first off. And secondly, of course people are going to jump on someone when their explanation of why Jim does things goes so far south as to say that in-game adjustments would be too confusing for the team to grasp, or something else similiarly silly.

(Like spazz's constant line about how Posey's minutes don't really matter, because he's the 10th man eventhough he's averaging just as many minutes as the starter.....)

90% of this board disagrees with the direction that Jim coaches. I think you're confusing "skewering" with merely just a number of different people putting in their two cents.

I can assure you that there isn't a concentrated effort, that I know of, to discredit and attack counter-arguments.

Poor choice of words on my part. When 5 or 6 different people respond to your posts steadfastly refuting what you are saying, it certainly seems like a skewering. Those two cents add up to a dollar pretty quickly.

McKeyFan
01-26-2011, 04:41 PM
Just ignore my posts then. No one is stopping you from doing so, and I certainly won't be offended. Sorry that my opinion isn't the same as yours.
Touchy, touchy!

You choose to play devil's advocate and then suggest people put you on ignore?

Since86
01-26-2011, 04:42 PM
But none of them are mean spirited. You have said it multiple times, you have CHOSEN to play devils advocate. That right there means that you have purposely taken a role outside of the majority just for the sake of argument.

When you do that, how can you complain that a number of people respond to your points? Especially when they're doing so without personal barbs nor even backhanded comments.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 04:45 PM
Poor choice of words on my part. When 5 or 6 different people respond to your posts steadfastly refuting what you are saying, it certainly seems like a skewering. Those two cents add up to a dollar pretty quickly.

I can totally relate to this; I know how it feels.

The truth is, most of the time (in general; not specifically referring to your situation), that it's a bunch of individuals responding to you one-on-one, not a concerted effort by a collective to take you down.

cdash
01-26-2011, 04:47 PM
Touchy, touchy!

You choose to play devil's advocate and then suggest people put you on ignore?

Nah, you just never seem to like what I post, and I think I've suggested you putting me on ignore before actually :laugh:

cdash
01-26-2011, 04:48 PM
I can totally relate to this; I know how it feels.

The truth is, most of the time (in general; not specifically referring to your situation), that it's a bunch of individuals responding to you one-on-one, not a concerted effort by a collective to take you down.

Yeah, I mean you will have that. Especially when you post something that you know people aren't going to like (as I did).

McKeyFan
01-26-2011, 05:02 PM
Nah, you just never seem to like what I post,
Never been a fan of the Devil.

:cool:

Since86
01-26-2011, 05:04 PM
WE'RE THE DEVILS! GO DEVILS!
http://lonelytailgater.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/david-puddy.jpg

BillS
01-26-2011, 05:05 PM
Friend of the Devil is a friend of mine.

Bball
01-27-2011, 04:31 AM
Never been a fan of the Devil.

:cool:

Peck would beg to differ....