PDA

View Full Version : Bird talks about his future (Also, Bird prefers to trade at deadline)



d_c
01-24-2011, 06:26 PM
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2011/01/24/indianas-larry-bird-eager-to-make-big-trade-undecided-on-futur/

Talks about trades, JOB and his future with the team. Bird appears undecided about coming back next season.



Even though he coached the Pacers to a 147-67 mark during his three seasons, including an NBA Finals appearance in 2000, he said coaching is not an option in his future.

"I liked it but I didn't love it,'' said Bird, a three-time MVP with the Celtics who in 1997-98 become the only man ever to be named MVP and NBA Coach of the Year. "The travel was tough.''

Trophy
01-24-2011, 06:36 PM
That was a really good article.

It still sounds like Bird will remain as the president of this team.

O'Braindead
01-24-2011, 06:42 PM
"I've got my draft choice (a 2011 first-round pick). The thing I always say is, 'Do you save it and see what the rules are (under a new collective bargaining agreement) or do you use it?' But, if get that opportunity, I'm going to use it (by the trade deadline). ... Do you wait or do you do it? I've made my mind up and I've talked to (Pacers owner Herb) Simon about it, and I've told him what I want to do, if we can get a good player.''

I find this interesting because it contradicts what Clark had to say about us acquiring a new player. It looks like Larry is extremely non-hesitant to make a big move for another scorer to compliment Danny. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that Paul and Tyler can help a lot in that regard, but I digress.


"Danny's one of our integral parts,'' Bird said. "I don't really talk about Danny (in possible) trades. We'd like to add to him, try to get him some help. ... Danny's been been a good soldier. He knows what we're doing. We'd rather add to him.''

This would confirm my suspicion. We're going to add with Danny instead of trading him for assets like many have wanted to do around here. Good move. There are a couple of guys out there and I get a feeling that Rush, a first, and one of our expirings are involved.

Things may start getting interesting soon my friends.

Hicks
01-24-2011, 06:43 PM
I was just about to post a thread about this article, too, but not for what d_c quoted:



With expiring contracts of Mike Dunleavy ($10.56 million), T.J. Ford ($8.5 million) and Jeff Foster ($6.66 million), Indiana is finally in position this summer to have oodles of cap room. But Bird, the Pacers president, said his preference is to use his assets to swing a deal by the Feb. 24 trade deadline to acquire a key player.

"I would do that,'' Bird, 54, who is contemplating retiring from the NBA after this season, said in an interview with FanHouse. "I've got my draft choice (a 2011 first-round pick). The thing I always say is, 'Do you save it and see what the rules are (under a new collective bargaining agreement) or do you use it?' But, if get that opportunity, I'm going to use it (by the trade deadline). ... Do you wait or do you do it? I've made my mind up and I've talked to (Pacers owner Herb) Simon about it, and I've told him what I want to do, if we can get a good player.''

I hope there's a good deal (or more) out there.

LetsTalkPacers
01-24-2011, 06:55 PM
Very good article.

presto123
01-24-2011, 06:59 PM
Makes me feel even more like Pritchard may be here next year. I hope so. It is time to shake things up.

Psyren
01-24-2011, 07:02 PM
Excellent article. Thanks for posting it!

That just makes me think that Larry is looking for that big time player this year, if the opportunity arises. We've got numerous good assets, and it's nice to see Larry willing to use them to the fullest.

aaronb
01-24-2011, 07:09 PM
Makes me feel even more like Pritchard may be here next year. I hope so. It is time to shake things up.

Not sure I feel great about Larry trading future picks?

Trader Joe
01-24-2011, 07:40 PM
Question, what player that could improve this team in the W-L, isn't a cap killer, and isn't too young/cheap for a bad team to give up on is out there? The answer to this question may exist, but whoever it is will pitch an absolute fit about coming to a 10 game under .500 Pacers squad. The players screwed themselves out of getting anyone of value at the trade dead line by playing like absolute garbage for 41 games. No real player of value will be sold on a "playoff push"

pwee31
01-24-2011, 07:43 PM
Too bad it's looking like we won't be in playoff contention by the time the trade deadline rolls around

Sookie
01-24-2011, 07:48 PM
Too bad it's looking like we won't be in playoff contention by the time the trade deadline rolls around

I actually think we've still got a pretty good possibility. The Bucks are getting Jennings back, so they'll be worse off, and Charlotte really isn't that good.

We're playing the young guys right now and they are down. But all they need is a good win, and the emotions will rise again. That's what happens with young teams, you win games you shouldn't win and you lose games you shouldn't lose.

esabyrn333
01-24-2011, 07:51 PM
PLAN A. Andre Iguodala (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/953/andre_iguodala/)

PLAN B. Chris Kaman (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/834/chris_kaman/)


OR best of all get both

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 07:52 PM
I actually think we've still got a pretty good possibility. The Bucks are getting Jennings back, so they'll be worse off, and Charlotte really isn't that good. We're playing the young guys right now and they are down. But all they need is a good win, and the emotions will rise again. That's what happens with young teams, you win games you shouldn't win and you lose games you shouldn't lose.

news flash we are not that good ethier. Tyrus Tomas lost kills them but they are playing way better than us

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 07:53 PM
PLAN A. Andre Iguodala (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/953/andre_iguodala/)

PLAN B. Chris Kaman (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/834/chris_kaman/)


OR best of all get both

I want plan C

Sookie
01-24-2011, 07:55 PM
news flash we are not that good ethier

Yea but we beat them, that helps. I'm just saying, the East sucks, we've got a good shot at sucking less then the rest of the bottom feeders..

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 07:56 PM
Yea but we beat them, that helps. I'm just saying, the East sucks, we've got a good shot at sucking less then the rest of the bottom feeders..

Wow just want i want medicore basketball team with another 13th pick in the draft.:dance::dance:

Trophy
01-24-2011, 07:58 PM
PLAN A. Andre Iguodala (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/953/andre_iguodala/)

PLAN B. Chris Kaman (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/834/chris_kaman/)


OR best of all get both

Not too bad.

I'd really want us to bring in Kaman and see how he does at PF next to Roy a few times.

As much as I would love to bring in Iguodala, we really don't need him. I just love the idea that we get a star next to Danny right now and continue to have Paul develop.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 08:02 PM
Not too bad.

I'd really want us to bring in Kaman and see how he does at PF next to Roy a few times.

As much as I would love to bring in Iguodala, we really don't need him. I just love the idea that we get a star next to Danny right now and continue to have Paul develop.

Kaman doesnt play the PF and isnt a star

Trophy
01-24-2011, 08:04 PM
Kaman doesnt play the PF and isnt a star

I didn't say he was a star or if he would even play the PF spot all the time. Just play him a few times next to Roy.

bambam
01-24-2011, 08:05 PM
I want plan C

Resign JOB

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 08:06 PM
I didn't say he was a star or if he would even play the PF spot all the time. Just play him a few times next to Roy.

then Roy will be in foul trouble a lot of nights

tsm612
01-24-2011, 08:08 PM
I would think that Nene would have to be a pretty realistic target. With Denver blowing their team up, I can't think of a better trade partner right now.

esabyrn333
01-24-2011, 08:11 PM
Not too bad.

I'd really want us to bring in Kaman and see how he does at PF next to Roy a few times.

As much as I would love to bring in Iguodala, we really don't need him. I just love the idea that we get a star next to Danny right now and continue to have Paul develop.


My Idea would be along the lines of Dunleavy, Rush, 1st round pick for Iguodala & Speights (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1406/marreese_speights/)

This would give us AI & Danny at the wing and PG as the first wing off the bench and Speights would help out at PF

Trophy
01-24-2011, 08:15 PM
I like David West, but I don't think the Hornets would trade him.

It looks like Bird's top priority to to bring in a decent, experienced PF.

Trophy
01-24-2011, 08:16 PM
My Idea would be along the lines of Dunleavy, Rush, 1st round pick for Iguodala & Speights (http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1406/marreese_speights/)

This would give us AI & Danny at the wing and PG as the first wing off the bench and Speights would help out at PF

That's a good deal.

The Jackson shimmy
01-24-2011, 08:17 PM
Kaman and Hibbert playing....together ? Even Bird isn't dense
enough to think that would work.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 08:19 PM
That's a good deal.

76ers say hell no

Psyren
01-24-2011, 08:20 PM
then Roy will be in foul trouble a lot of nights

You mean he's not already? He usually has 2 fouls in the first 5 of almost every game (or so it seems).

ilive4sports
01-24-2011, 08:28 PM
I like David West, but I don't think the Hornets would trade him.

It looks like Bird's top priority to to bring in a decent, experienced PF.

West has a player option for next year so he may be a FA.

Pacersalltheway10
01-24-2011, 09:01 PM
If we want nene, we could just sign him in the off season. He can opt out of his current contract with the nuggets this offseason and judging by the way things are going in denver right now , I think that's a possibilty. Unless denver would be willing to accept posey and d jones for nene but I doubt that would happen.

Pacerized
01-24-2011, 09:39 PM
Kaman doesnt play the PF and isnt a star

I don't care if Kaman is a PF, he's a very effective big man. I'd be fine with starting 2 centers. Kaman was an all star just last year, more recently then Danny.

SMosley21
01-24-2011, 09:57 PM
I would think that Nene would have to be a pretty realistic target. With Denver blowing their team up, I can't think of a better trade partner right now.

If Nene isn't happy with what's going on in Denver right now and is trying to force them to trade him, even though he's going to opt out of his contract in the off season anyway, why would we think he would have a different attitude here and want to re-sign with us after the season? We would have to tremendously overpay for a mid-level PF in Nene.

I would rather we trade for a player who has 2-3 years left under contract after this season so we don't have to worry about them bolting on us.

graphic-er
01-24-2011, 10:04 PM
I think Nene would be a great pick up but I think he would poo poo any trade with us by not agreeing to an extension. He clearly stated that he wants to go to Miami or another contender. He is just to dumb to understand that none of those teams actually want him or can afford to sign him and still field a full roster.

xBulletproof
01-24-2011, 10:05 PM
If we're trading for someone to help, I hope it's Scola.

Far better option than the other things I hear getting thrown around.

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:07 PM
NeNe will not likely sign an extension with us.. i think our best FA prospect is David West. A solid vet sign around 4 years. Upgrades the position and Hansbrough has 2-3 years to develop into a quality level starter at PF.

Been advocating Dunleavy, Rush, and 1st for an elite level SG. They can also be a vet, and PG can gain experience off the bench.

So many options for this team and Bird is the one who has given us this opportunity, yet some continue to p*** and moan about the performance of Bird.

All-star in Granger, young core of DC, George, Hansbrough, Hibbert, Price, excess of 20+ million in cap space and yet bozo billy could do a better job .. !!

Irregardless of a trade or not, I am confident Bird will do what is in our best interests. If its waiting until the offseason, we will still be in an excellent position to take advantage of any cba cap players that teams need to move.

vnzla81
01-24-2011, 10:11 PM
If we're trading for someone to help, I hope it's Scola.

Far better option than the other things I hear getting thrown around.

I've been agreeing with you too much lately, I'm feeling dirty ...............:blush:

Yep I agree, let's hope they can get Scola.

tsm612
01-24-2011, 10:14 PM
If Nene isn't happy with what's going on in Denver right now and is trying to force them to trade him, even though he's going to opt out of his contract in the off season anyway, why would we think he would have a different attitude here and want to re-sign with us after the season? We would have to tremendously overpay for a mid-level PF in Nene.

I would rather we trade for a player who has 2-3 years left under contract after this season so we don't have to worry about them bolting on us.

The reason Nene isn't happy in Denver is because of all the Melo bs. I don't think he necessarily has an attitude problem. And I really don't think he will opt out this offseason unless he's at a team that he's seriously unhappy with. He's getting about $11 million right now, not sure about next year. But if he chooses to opt out and test himself in the free agency this summer, then he's taking a big risk financially with the CBA negotiations going on. He could end up losing money, but if we aren't making major strides a year from now, he'd probably be gone at the end of the year.

I wouldn't mind Nene, but I do agree about trading for a player with 2-3 years left on a contract. I'm just not sure there's any other veteran pf's available that can be had for an expiring and picks/assets.

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:15 PM
If we're trading for someone to help, I hope it's Scola.

Far better option than the other things I hear getting thrown around.

I would be in favor of a trade with Houston for Martin/Scola. We probably have enough assets to make Houston consider it. Although, not willing to go all in or nothing either for that deal. Would need to look at the contracts etc. Taking back that much gauranteed $ somewhat lowers their value. a first, rush, dunleavy, ford would be a starting point for any negotions. im sure george or one of the young players would need to be included.. however one could counter with an additional first rounder.

we have enough young players that trading two first round picks is not going to significantly affect us; unless they are top 3 picks.

Trophy
01-24-2011, 10:18 PM
If we're trading for someone to help, I hope it's Scola.

Far better option than the other things I hear getting thrown around.

If they're willing to take an expiring, maybe Rush and our first then I'd love to bring in Scola.

xBulletproof
01-24-2011, 10:20 PM
I just want Scola. Not Kevin (never heard of defense) Martin.

Major Cold
01-24-2011, 10:22 PM
Scola? Nene? Iggy? Speights?

Scola-Defense? Power?

Nene- Injuries--A lot of games on those legs

Iggy- Offense consistency? Go to scorer?

Speights- Another potential player?


These players do not get us in the top 6 of the conference. Save the cap space if this is all we get.

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:24 PM
I just want Scola. Not Kevin (never heard of defense) Martin.

please elaborate? unless martins contract is too expensive, i would be all for it. martin always reminded me a lil' of Reggie (and i make that comparison with all due respect).. who wasnt really known for his defense either.

unless the contract is outrageous, i'd consider it.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 10:25 PM
please elaborate? unless martins contract is too expensive, i would be all for it. martin always reminded me a lil' of Reggie (and i make that comparison with all due respect).. who wasnt really known for his defense either.

unless the contract is outrageous, i'd consider it.

Martin is the worst defender in the NBA

Trophy
01-24-2011, 10:28 PM
I'm watching David West and he plays the post well and looks like he'd be a great fit next to Roy.

So if Bird wants to wait and hang onto our expirings and offer West a larger contract than what New Orleans might offer after the following season, that wouldn't be too bad.

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:28 PM
Scola? Nene? Iggy? Speights?

Scola-Defense? Power?

Nene- Injuries--A lot of games on those legs

Iggy- Offense consistency? Go to scorer?

Speights- Another potential player?


These players do not get us in the top 6 of the conference. Save the cap space if this is all we get.

the premise of this article is Birds looking to make a move, ergo who might we recieve in return.?

i agree however with the idea we should be retaining as much cap space as possible unless a trade is worthy of acceptance.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 10:30 PM
If anything we are sellers i really doubt we are buyers at the trade deadline

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:31 PM
Martin is the worst defender in the NBA

I do not watch the rockets as often as i do the pacers, but if he is really that bad than yes its not worth his contract.

defense i hope is a priority with any acquistion we may make.

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:34 PM
I'm watching David West and he plays the post well and looks like he'd be a great fit next to Roy.

So if Bird wants to wait and hang onto our expirings and offer West a larger contract than what New Orleans might offer after the following season, that wouldn't be too bad.

exactly. we could pay him on a reduced salary structure with brunt of salary upfront. eg. 14-11-8-5 with an average salary of 9 million per season. easier to trade towards the expiration.

vnzla81
01-24-2011, 10:38 PM
exactly. we could pay him on a reduced salary structure with brunt of salary upfront. eg. 14-11-8-5 with an average salary of 9 million per season. easier to trade towards the expiration.

Here is an article about Dwest, NO is winning so I have a feeling that they are not going to let him walk

edit: and by the way according to the article he is looking to get around 10mil a year and he is 31 years old, no thanks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ApTrBeXwz0nG788v2ogEKka8vLYF?slug=aw-westhornets012411

Trophy
01-24-2011, 10:41 PM
Here is an article about Dwest, NO is winning so I have a feeling that they are not going to let him walk

edit: and by the way according to the article he is looking to get around 10mil a year and he is 31 years old, no thanks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ApTrBeXwz0nG788v2ogEKka8vLYF?slug=aw-westhornets012411

I still wouldn't mind bringing him in though, but I like our other potential options too.

Bob Zeus
01-24-2011, 10:43 PM
I've been silent a long time with no recent posts on the PD. Not much to say when it's the 7th straight year when the Pacers have not had a team to get excited about. Bird will NOT be back next year. He's failed as GM and he knows it. Maybe it's not entirely his fault but failure it is. That may be why he's willing to make a last ditch trade at the deadline. Perhaps he thinks he might get lucky and get a 'name' player so he can say as he walks out the door that he left the team better off than he found it -- a boast of success even if it wouldn't be factually correct. My personal preference -- remember this is just one man's opinion -- is to finish the year with the current roster. Then, go to the draft with probably the 12th pick, get what we can and use the cap room from the expiring contracts to hire free agents in the summer of 2012 when the shape of the CBA is known and understood. At that point, I'm hoping that Simon will have finally hired a front office that actually knows how to evaluate talent and to put a team together. As you can see, I suspect that next year will not be pretty if you are an NBA fan so we might as well place our bets on the summer of 2012 and the 12/13 season. That's just my opinion, of course. Rest easy. I'm going to go radio silent, again.

Trophy
01-24-2011, 10:45 PM
I also like Luc Mbah a Moute.

He's a really good defender for his size and did well starting at PF in the playoffs last year.

TheDon
01-24-2011, 10:45 PM
If we're trading for someone to help, I hope it's Scola.

Far better option than the other things I hear getting thrown around.

If that is even within the realm of possibility I want this to happen to. Never considered it though cause I don't see the rockets just giving him away. Maybe we can convince Kahn he needs another point guard and give him tj and our first and take kevin love while we're shooting for the stars.

vnzla81
01-24-2011, 10:46 PM
I still wouldn't mind bringing him in though, but I like our other potential options too.

10mil a year for a guy that is going to be 32 by the time the lockout is over is not worth it.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 10:47 PM
I also like Luc Mbah a Moute.

He's a really good defender for his size and did well starting at PF in the playoffs last year.

I think he will be a FA

but the Bucks need him he his a great defender

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:47 PM
Here is an article about Dwest, NO is winning so I have a feeling that they are not going to let him walk

edit: and by the way according to the article he is looking to get around 10mil a year and he is 31 years old, no thanks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ApTrBeXwz0nG788v2ogEKka8vLYF?slug=aw-westhornets012411

Age should not be a deterrant imo. I believe Hansbrough will be a quality starting PF in this league, but it may take 2-3 more seasons for him to develop. West brings leadership, experience, and productivity to the position. He is one player we have a realistic chance of acquiring.

Bird sounds sincere in that he wants to make the playoffs, in order to do so you need vets.. as mentioned in the article

vnzla81
01-24-2011, 10:49 PM
Age should not be a deterrant imo. I believe Hansbrough will be a quality starting PF in this league, but it may take 2-3 more seasons for him to develop. West brings leadership, experience, and productivity to the position. He is one player we have a realistic chance of acquiring.

Bird sounds sincere in that he wants to make the playoffs, in order to do so you need vets.. as mentioned in the article

Age should be taken into consideration when you have a young team and you have guys that by the time they hit their prime, Dwest would be out of the NBA.

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 10:57 PM
[QUOTE]I've been silent a long time with no recent posts on the PD. Not much to say when it's the 7th straight year when the Pacers have not had a team to get excited about.

sounds like your implying all 7 years to Bird?? if so thats erroneous statement.



Bird will NOT be back next year. He's failed as GM and he knows it.

In 3 years time Bird has failed as a GM?? counting time that he and Walsh were in charge.?



Maybe it's not entirely his fault but failure it is. That may be why he's willing to make a last ditch trade at the deadline. Perhaps he thinks he might get lucky and get a 'name' player so he can say as he walks out the door that he left the team better off than he found it -- a boast of success even if it wouldn't be factually correct.

yea, that sounds like something Larry Legend would do; in all honesty if Bird left after this season he did leave the franchise in a better position than when he began full GM responsibilities.

gone are the bad contracts and characters. a young core is in place with cap room.

PacersPride
01-24-2011, 11:03 PM
Age should be taken into consideration when you have a young team and you have guys that by the time they hit their prime, Dwest would be out of the NBA.

thats kinda the point tho, we pay him while he is productive, then let Hansbrough take over when he is 28 as a starter.

PacerGuy
01-24-2011, 11:24 PM
Scola is BYC, so hard to do a deal Houston would be happy with.

Cherokee
01-24-2011, 11:31 PM
Martin is the worst defender in the NBA

LOL. Wow, Dunleavy and Murphy have been elevated!

beast23
01-25-2011, 12:31 AM
10mil a year for a guy that is going to be 32 by the time the lockout is over is not worth it.I would have no problem with that all, considering the skill set we would be getting and how it matches to our current personnel. Especially if the contract were front loaded... something like 12-11-9-8.

It's true that NO certainly would not want him to walk; but with their salary structure going into next season, they may not have much choice.

If NO hopes to lower their payroll, then their best bet might be a deal for an expiring plus Hansbrough and a 1st, or something similar. That would at least return a promising PF, get them an additional draft choice and net them about 8M in payroll savings. For the Pacers, we would also get about a 6M trade exception.

I think West is precisely the kind of vet Bird is talking about.

beast23
01-25-2011, 12:33 AM
10mil a year for a guy that is going to be 32 by the time the lockout is over is not worth it.Wow. So 32 is old?

I see that you are 29, how does it feel to be well beyond middle age?

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 12:36 AM
Wow. So 32 is old?

I see that you are 29, how does it feel to be well beyond middle age?

Is the NBA no normal life, 32 is really old.

Kemo
01-25-2011, 12:46 AM
Martin is the worst defender in the NBA

LMAO ya ...... RIIIIIIIGHT ...


coughahemtroycoughmurphycoughahemOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pacer4ever
01-25-2011, 12:48 AM
LMAO ya ...... RIIIIIIIGHT ...


coughahemtroycoughmurphycoughahemOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

premiter defender(Murphy is the wort defender overall) he is worse than Dunleavy in my view and that is pretty damm bad.

croz24
01-25-2011, 01:46 AM
it's unfortunate that the players the pacers need, the pacers don't have the assets to get.

ballism
01-25-2011, 05:50 AM
Combine this with the rumor on Yahoo right now that Hornets aren't extending West and might look to trade him before deadline, interesting. West for Hansbrough+Jeff Foster? I'd do it, and I think Hornets just might take it instead of letting him go.

BringJackBack
01-25-2011, 05:54 AM
Combine this with the rumor on Yahoo right now that Hornets aren't extending West and might look to trade him before deadline, interesting. West for Hansbrough+Jeff Foster? I'd do it, and I think Hornets just might take it instead of letting him go.

Woah, this is great news for us.

He'd have to sign an extension for us, however.

:kickcan:

indygeezer
01-25-2011, 06:56 AM
Far better to use the potential cap space in a couple of trades and know what you are getting than to wait for free-agency and overpay for whoever didn't get an offer from Miami, NY, LA, or any of the glamour teams. Of course you want to save some of that cap space for yourself so you don't find yourself in cap-hell again.

DaveP63
01-25-2011, 08:51 AM
Not sure I feel great about Larry trading future picks?

What if we're in lottery limbo again? Hovering around 13-18? If he can make us better by trading a mediocre pick, go for it.

owl
01-25-2011, 08:59 AM
I've been silent a long time with no recent posts on the PD. Not much to say when it's the 7th straight year when the Pacers have not had a team to get excited about. Bird will NOT be back next year. He's failed as GM and he knows it. Maybe it's not entirely his fault but failure it is. That may be why he's willing to make a last ditch trade at the deadline. Perhaps he thinks he might get lucky and get a 'name' player so he can say as he walks out the door that he left the team better off than he found it -- a boast of success even if it wouldn't be factually correct. My personal preference -- remember this is just one man's opinion -- is to finish the year with the current roster. Then, go to the draft with probably the 12th pick, get what we can and use the cap room from the expiring contracts to hire free agents in the summer of 2012 when the shape of the CBA is known and understood. At that point, I'm hoping that Simon will have finally hired a front office that actually knows how to evaluate talent and to put a team together. As you can see, I suspect that next year will not be pretty if you are an NBA fan so we might as well place our bets on the summer of 2012 and the 12/13 season. That's just my opinion, of course. Rest easy. I'm going to go radio silent, again.

That has been my position as far as this team goes. However if Bird does nothing and quits
he will still have left the team in better shape then when he started. Unless something
good comes along in trade just take your medicine and move on.

owl
01-25-2011, 09:01 AM
Far better to use the potential cap space in a couple of trades and know what you are getting than to wait for free-agency and overpay for whoever didn't get an offer from Miami, NY, LA, or any of the glamour teams. Of course you want to save some of that cap space for yourself so you don't find yourself in cap-hell again.

Luck favors the prepared. There is routinely a team that needs someone with cap space.
The Pacers need to be prepared to take advantage of that.

PacerHound
01-25-2011, 09:51 AM
Here is an article about Dwest, NO is winning so I have a feeling that they are not going to let him walk

edit: and by the way according to the article he is looking to get around 10mil a year and he is 31 years old, no thanks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ApTrBeXwz0nG788v2ogEKka8vLYF?slug=aw-westhornets012411

No, thanks indeed. I am an ex-Pacer fan immediately when Hansbrough goes. Give him a break. He is not even through his first full season of play due to last year's injury. He is coming around, getting more comfortable. Give him 30 minutes a night and he will be a 15 point a game scorer and 8 rebound a game player. That is now. In the future he will be better. The day will come if Hansbrough is traded that the Pacers will regret it. Instant gratification is not what this team needs at the expense of the future.

Justin Tyme
01-25-2011, 10:33 AM
I actually think we've still got a pretty good possibility. The Bucks are getting Jennings back, so they'll be worse off,

and Charlotte really isn't that good.


We'll really have to disagree about this! The Bucks will NOT be worse with Jennings back.

Charlotter just lost Tyrus Thomas to a 8 week injury, so they will start to fall.

Justin Tyme
01-25-2011, 10:37 AM
Kaman doesnt play the PF and isnt a star


I'm not saying Kaman is an star, but wasn't he an Allstar last year?

rm1369
01-25-2011, 10:41 AM
in all honesty if Bird left after this season he did leave the franchise in a better position than when he began full GM responsibilities. gone are the bad contracts and characters. a young core is in place with cap room.

IMO, Bird has only really done two things right - he hasn't significantly added salary and he drafted PG. I've disagreed with nearly everything else. IMO, his mistakes far outweigh his hits.

As much as I hate JOB, I'm not really sold there is a great young core here. The team is filled with mediocre NBA players - basically roll players. Bird has went about building the complimentary pieces to a team, but it will go nowhere without some difference making talent. Maybe Bird can pull off some miracle. Considering his comments about making the playoffs and needing a veteran, I doubt it. I fully expect we will bring in another borderline starter. This team will continue being built for mediocrity as long as Bird is here. I can only hope he follows JOB out the door at the end of the season.

Justin Tyme
01-25-2011, 10:45 AM
I think Nene would be a great pick up but I think he would poo poo any trade with us by not agreeing to an extension. He clearly stated that he wants to go to Miami or another contender. He is just to dumb to understand that none of those teams actually want him or can afford to sign him and still field a full roster.


Right off the top of my head a contenting team that comes to mind that has the assets to trade for Nene is the Thunder. They have expirings to help Denver, they have young players for Denver to rebuild, and the have a 1st pick for Denver. I would think Nene would love to play with Durant and Westbrook!

graphic-er
01-25-2011, 10:47 AM
If you can get David West then you have to go for it. He has alot of miles left and I really think just having talent on your team puts you in better position years from now to trade in on that talent. There will be a young up and coming player on teams like the Mavs, Magic, Boston, etc.. that you'll be able to flip a guy like West to in a couple of years time if it doesn't work out well here in Indy. You can always find a taker for proven talent. Contending teams always want proven talent to reload their roster with every year. Look at all the old guys Boston brought in this year.

Though I think Scola would actually be a better pick up.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 10:54 AM
If we could keep Tyler and replace him with Rush then i would be alright with trading for West. Better yet just give them our first and keep Rush.

West is better than Brand and a 10 million dollar contract per year is worth it. Most of us were opposed to Brands contract and if we could get West for 5 million dollars cheaper than Brand then thats a good trade for us. There is no decline in West game right now. Will there be in 4 years? Probably but by then he will be expiring contract worth more than just his production on the floor.

graphic-er
01-25-2011, 10:54 AM
Right off the top of my head a contenting team that comes to mind that has the assets to trade for Nene is the Thunder. They have expirings to help Denver, they have young players for Denver to rebuild, and the have a 1st pick for Denver. I would think Nene would love to play with Durant and Westbrook!

I agree, OKC has the assets available. But do you think OKC is a contender? I'm not so sure. So far they have been a bit disappointing. I mean they have the 2 best players from team USA right and their the 4th seed out West. For sure though player like Durant and Westbrook are built for playoff basketball.

Is OKC on the list for Nene?

Justin Tyme
01-25-2011, 11:02 AM
I would be in favor of a trade with Houston for Martin/Scola. We probably have enough assets to make Houston consider it. Although, not willing to go all in or nothing either for that deal. Would need to look at the contracts etc. Taking back that much gauranteed $ somewhat lowers their value. a first, rush, dunleavy, ford would be a starting point for any negotions. im sure george or one of the young players would need to be included.. however one could counter with an additional first rounder.

we have enough young players that trading two first round picks is not going to significantly affect us; unless they are top 3 picks.


That poopoo platter for their Houston's starting SG & PF! Houston would laugh at Bird and then hang up. You don't want to give up anything, but you want Houston to give away Martin and Scola, WOW. You truly think Houston wouldn't want a Pacer core player or two back for Martin & Scola?? Your suggested trade has "homerism" written all over it. If you were a Rocket fan, you'd be happy if Houston traded Martin & Scola for Rush, Dunleavy, Ford, and a 1st? I didn't think so.

aaronb
01-25-2011, 11:09 AM
IMO, Bird has only really done two things right - he hasn't significantly added salary and he drafted PG. I've disagreed with nearly everything else. IMO, his mistakes far outweigh his hits.

As much as I hate JOB, I'm not really sold there is a great young core here. The team is filled with mediocre NBA players - basically roll players. Bird has went about building the complimentary pieces to a team, but it will go nowhere without some difference making talent. Maybe Bird can pull off some miracle. Considering his comments about making the playoffs and needing a veteran, I doubt it. I fully expect we will bring in another borderline starter. This team will continue being built for mediocrity as long as Bird is here. I can only hope he follows JOB out the door at the end of the season.


Totally agree!

I get the feeling that if someone other than Larry Bird had made all these moves. That the torch and pitchfork brigade would be out in force like they are with JOB.

Justin Tyme
01-25-2011, 11:09 AM
exactly. we could pay him on a reduced salary structure with brunt of salary upfront. eg. 14-11-8-5 with an average salary of 9 million per season. easier to trade towards the expiration.



Isn't their a declining % as to how much a contract can be reduced each year? My guess your example is an extreme.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 11:14 AM
If you can get David West then you have to go for it. He has alot of miles left and I really think just having talent on your team puts you in better position years from now to trade in on that talent. There will be a young up and coming player on teams like the Mavs, Magic, Boston, etc.. that you'll be able to flip a guy like West to in a couple of years time if it doesn't work out well here in Indy. You can always find a taker for proven talent. Contending teams always want proven talent to reload their roster with every year. Look at all the old guys Boston brought in this year.

Though I think Scola would actually be a better pick up.
Why would Houston trade Scola? He is the last guy i see them traded and i agree that Scola would be better but West would come a lot cheaper.

FYI to age haters. Scola is the same age as West.

ballism
01-25-2011, 11:21 AM
Is OKC on the list for Nene?

Nene's list is the most ridiculous trade rumor I've heard. The man has never got anything close to max money, and never had one of those huge endorsement deals. Carmelo can afford to have lists. He's max anyway, and his shoe lines won't go away. He can afford to get 20 mil less and sign where he wants.

Nene? Come on. You honestly believe he doesn't sign a 40 or 50 mil extension with OKC - or Indiana for that matter - because they aren't a contender? And settle with Miami or Dallas for midlevel? Didn't think so. Whoever trades for him and offers an extension, gets him. 'The list' is pure posturing and trying to be like Melo.

Hicks
01-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Is the NBA no normal life, 32 is really old.

You make that sound like a 32 year old is like Chris Mullin circa 1999-2000 season in terms of their use. Maybe sometimes that's the case, but consider:

Ray Allen is 35 years old right now. He won't be 36 until the off season. The year they won the title, 2007-2008, he was 32.

Paul Pierce is 33 right now. He's not exactly done.

Kobe Bryant is 32 right now, and he's played in the league heading on 15 years now. He's not exactly done, either.

Ron Artest is 31 right now. Not close to done, either.

Chauncey Billups is 34 right now. He didn't fall of a cliff two years ago.

Vince Carter is 34 tomorrow, and he's been injured a lot over the years. Still averaging 15ppg, about 5 rebounds and 2 assists.

I'll get people picking on this one for sure, but considering his age and significant back issues combined with his style of play, Jeff Foster still looks halfway decent at 34 IMO. I'll grant you he's close to the final drop off, but nonetheless he wasn't dead and buried two years ago at 32.

Kevin Garnett is still pretty good, and he's 34 (35 in May) with heading on 16 seasons under his belt.

Grant Hill still produces, had severe medical issues, and he's 38.

Stephen Jackson is 32.

Antawn Jamison has declined, but is still quite productive at age 34.

Jason Kidd stopped being a superstar a while back, no doubt, but he's still a starting point guard on a playoff team at 37. At 32, it was still his last full year in New Jersey.

Rashard Lewis is 31. I don't think he's going to disappear in a year.

Shawn Marion is 32. Another decline, but still a solid contributor.

Kenyon Martin's numbers are down this year, but he was still about the same guy up until last year, when he was 32, and even now you can figure in that he's playing 15 less minutes than last season, and then his numbers aren't nearly as bad as they first appear.

Antonio McDyess was 32... 4 years ago. Guy averaged just shy of 10 and 10 in 2008-2009, when he was 34.

Andre Miller is 34, heading on 35 in March.

Brad Miller was a 12/8/3ast guy at age 32. He's 34 now, 35 in April, though I'll grant you he seems to have fallen off.

Steve Nash is still Steve Nash, and he's going to be 37 in a couple of weeks. Let alone when he was 32.

Dirk Nowitzki is 32 right now.

Lamar Odom is 31 right now.

Jason Terry is 33.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't players who are done by the time they're moving through their 30's, but it's hardly a given that all players are done by 32, either.

ballism
01-25-2011, 11:30 AM
Isn't their a declining % as to how much a contract can be reduced each year? My guess your example is an extreme.

Indeed, it's generally 8-10.5%, depending on the type of the deal.
So something like 14 - 12.5 - 11 - 9.5 - 8 would be more accurate.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 11:32 AM
Hicks all those players you are naming(minus Foster) are either hall of famers or really good bench players, if we sign a guy like West we are going to ask him to at least be our second of third option not another piece on the team.

Doddage
01-25-2011, 11:35 AM
What people need to realize about Scola is he'll be an effective player well into his 30's. His game doesn't revolve around any athleticism but rather excellent basketball IQ and crafty, physical play under the rim. He'd be a very solid guy to put next to Hibbert, imo.

Speed
01-25-2011, 11:38 AM
Age is important because it means how many years they have left in there prime or how close they are to the invitable decline.

Nothing against older players, just a measure of how much value they have based on how long they'll be good.

To paint it as ageism is silly, its just part of the measure.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 11:41 AM
What people need to realize about Scola is he'll be an effective player well into his 30's. His game doesn't revolve around any athleticism but rather excellent basketball IQ and crafty, physical play under the rim. He'd be a very solid guy to put next to Hibbert, imo.

This.
Here is a reason why I rather have a player like Scola, Varejao or even Nene next to Hibbert, this team needs a guy that is going to do all the litte things, a garbage man if you like and I don't think Dwest is that type of guy.

aaronb
01-25-2011, 11:44 AM
What people need to realize about Scola is he'll be an effective player well into his 30's. His game doesn't revolve around any athleticism but rather excellent basketball IQ and crafty, physical play under the rim. He'd be a very solid guy to put next to Hibbert, imo.


Same can be said for Zach Randolph as well. We can surely get him to come home at a discount this summer?

ballism
01-25-2011, 11:47 AM
The key to keep in mind about David West - he's entered the league late. He stayed in college for 4 years. Yes, he's 32 soon, but he's only played 529 NBA games in his carreer, playoffs includeded. That's extremely low for his age. To put it in perspective, that's less games played than LeBron, Wade or Dwight Howard. And it's twice less than KG at 32.
That doesn't mean David West will keep his current form till 40, but it also means that he isn't your typical 32 year old out-of-highschool veteran. He doesn't have much wear-and-tear and if you want to sign a veteran, he's a safer bet than most.

Edit - just realised he hits 31 this off season, not 32.

HC
01-25-2011, 11:48 AM
Same can be said for Zach Randolph as well. We can surely get him to come home at a discount this summer?

no

Hicks
01-25-2011, 11:51 AM
Hicks all those players you are naming(minus Foster) are either hall of famers or really good bench players, if we sign a guy like West we are going to ask him to at least be our second of third option not another piece on the team.

I don't see the significance of their roles, unless all of the guys I mentioned were end-of-the-rotation guys. The point is, they play significant minutes, they're still pretty good, and there's a variety of superstars, stars, all-stars, and just good players on that list.

Hicks
01-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Age is important because it means how many years they have left in there prime or how close they are to the invitable decline.

Nothing against older players, just a measure of how much value they have based on how long they'll be good.

To paint it as ageism is silly, its just part of the measure.

That's fine, but we aren't going to go out and look for another guy younger than Danny Granger (he's 27). We're going to get someone at least 27, if not closer to 30. And I'm completely fine with that. They'll probably be here 4+ years, and they'll probably be themselves that entire time unless they get hurt.

Hicks
01-25-2011, 11:53 AM
With all of that said, I'm not terribly high on David West. I'd take him, but I'm not excited about him.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 12:00 PM
Age is important because it means how many years they have left in there prime or how close they are to the invitable decline.

Nothing against older players, just a measure of how much value they have based on how long they'll be good.

To paint it as ageism is silly, its just part of the measure.
This is why contracts for 30 year olds reflect that inevitable decline. IF we sign any pf that is in his 30's we should only give him 4-5 years of guaranteed money. If we sign west for 40 million over 4 years that is a good deal for him. His previous contract was 5 years for 45 million which was front loaded. Personally I think we would have to spend a tad bit more for him than that but thats the price of doing business in a small market with limited success.

ballism
01-25-2011, 12:01 PM
This.
Here is a reason why I rather have a player like Scola, Varejao or even Nene next to Hibbert, this team needs a guy that is going to do all the litte things, a garbage man if you like and I don't think Dwest is that type of guy.

I think we need to take Hibbert out of equation for a while. This slump has been forever, and if it continues, he's just a role player, and a pretty bad one tbh. You can't build your core based on what role players you got. Got to build the core, and then move around role players. Hibbert has so many flaws right now, that you can't find a guy who covers those flaws. At the start of the year, I thought he's part of the core, now I hope he still has some trade value.

Personally, if Denver blows it up, I'd love a Hibbert for Nene deal, and pair Nene-West in the front court.

Speed
01-25-2011, 12:22 PM
I always worry about guys who play with stud point guards. Amare was for real, obviously, but then I think of Shawn Marion types who need(ed) those top tier Point Guards to be effective.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 12:29 PM
With all of that said, I'm not terribly high on David West. I'd take him, but I'm not excited about him.

This is how I feel about the whole Dwest thing, is he going to make the team a playoffs contender? Yes, is he going to make them championship contenders, I don't think so.
By the way if they think about getting Dwest they better start looking for another home for Hibbert because those guys won't fit together.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 12:34 PM
This is how I feel about the whole Dwest thing, is he going to make the team a playoffs contender? Yes, is he going to make them championship contenders, I don't think so.
By the way if they think about getting Dwest they better start looking for another home for Hibbert because those guys won't fit together.
You have to go through the playoffs to get to the championships. One player is not going put us over the top. ITs going to take 5 good to really good starters to make us a championship type team and West could be that for us.

The Rocker
01-25-2011, 12:44 PM
This is how I feel about the whole Dwest thing, is he going to make the team a playoffs contender? Yes, is he going to make them championship contenders, I don't think so.
By the way if they think about getting Dwest they better start looking for another home for Hibbert because those guys won't fit together.
before it need another home for Chris Paul

pacer4ever
01-25-2011, 12:49 PM
I always worry about guys who play with stud point guards. Amare was for real, obviously, but then I think of Shawn Marion types who need(ed) those top tier Point Guards to be effective.

Marion was the heart of thoes suns team he is a dirty work and doesnt require plays called for him he doesnt need a good pg to be effective. He is a defensive specialist

TheDon
01-25-2011, 12:55 PM
I'm really worried that when Bird says he wants to trade at the deadline that it just ends up being a revisiting and finalization of getting Anthony Randolph. If that ends up being the case I really hope that it's not for our first round pick cause I would rather take a chance of what we can aquire in the draft than take a chance on Randolph.

pacergod2
01-25-2011, 01:11 PM
I would love for us to go after Kendrink Perkins this off-season. I love Roy and think he is a great compliment to what we have going on, but Perkins is a beast. He provides a ton of bulk up front. He doesn't really fit well with Hibbert but I think you could play them together for stretches and limit them to about 25-30 minutes per game, which would extend their careers IMO. I don't think Perkins would look at it that way, though. He will want to be the clear cut number one anywhere he plays.

Same goes for Greg Oden.

CableKC
01-25-2011, 01:27 PM
This is how I feel about the whole Dwest thing, is he going to make the team a playoffs contender? Yes, is he going to make them championship contenders, I don't think so.
By the way if they think about getting Dwest they better start looking for another home for Hibbert because those guys won't fit together.
I'm curious, why do you think that?

From what I have seen....David West has a solid Mid-range game that doesn't solely rely on low-post scoring.

CableKC
01-25-2011, 01:30 PM
I would love for us to go after Kendrink Perkins this off-season. I love Roy and think he is a great compliment to what we have going on, but Perkins is a beast. He provides a ton of bulk up front. He doesn't really fit well with Hibbert but I think you could play them together for stretches and limit them to about 25-30 minutes per game, which would extend their careers IMO. I don't think Perkins would look at it that way, though. He will want to be the clear cut number one anywhere he plays.

Same goes for Greg Oden.
I'm thinking that Perkins will re-sign with the Celtics for the long-term.

Although my guess is that he goes to NY....if we need a backup Center to sign in the offseason....I'd go after Pryzbilla. I don't think that he will be as expensive as the others. To me, he fits the mold of being a solid backup Center that can step in and be an emergency Starting Center. He rebounds and block shots.

Speed
01-25-2011, 01:35 PM
Marion was the heart of thoes suns team he is a dirty work and doesnt require plays called for him he doesnt need a good pg to be effective. He is a defensive specialist


I could be mis remembering but didn't his stats just fall off completely when he left, though.

pacergod2
01-25-2011, 01:38 PM
I'm thinking that Perkins will re-sign with the Celtics for the long-term.

Although my guess is that he goes to NY....if we need a backup Center to sign in the offseason....I'd go after Pryzbilla. I don't think that he will be as expensive as the others. To me, he fits the mold of being a solid backup Center that can step in and be an emergency Starting Center. He rebounds and block shots.

I actually typed something about thinking Perkins will go to NY, but erased it because I thought it was getting off topic a little too much. I can almost guarantee we will see him as a Knick, unless it gets in the way of them getting Carmelo.

I like the Pryzbilla idea. He is a perfect role player. Not a big ego and won't demand a ton of money either. I think Kwame Brown or Nazr Mohammed also fit that role well. Defense, rebounding, and some shot blocking out of your relatively cheap backup center is what any team would love.

I just don't want to sign an Okur or Murphy type at all. In any way, shape, or form.

Speed
01-25-2011, 01:38 PM
What about Rip Hamilton? 2 years 21 million left. Vet scorer. Seems to fit the description.

Wouldn't Detroit want salary relief for him at this point?

Just trying to brainstorm here.

Then you go after unrestricted Kris Humphries in the offseason. Hansbrough and Humphries would just be a huge pain for teams to play against.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 01:38 PM
I'm curious, why do you think that?

From what I have seen....David West has a solid Mid-range game that doesn't solely rely on low-post scoring.

I don't think Hibbert and West could fit in the same court, Hibbert needs somebody that could take some pressure off him by playing D and getting rebounds, in other words he needs a garbage man, somebody that doesn't need plays call for him and to me the only way West is effective is when he plays pick and roll or they call iso plays for him.

If we get West we will need a garbage man at the center position because Hibbert is just no that type of guy.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 01:42 PM
I'm thinking that Perkins will re-sign with the Celtics for the long-term.

Although my guess is that he goes to NY....if we need a backup Center to sign in the offseason....I'd go after Pryzbilla. I don't think that he will be as expensive as the others. To me, he fits the mold of being a solid backup Center that can step in and be an emergency Starting Center. He rebounds and block shots.
If we make Perkins the starter over Roy than i think we could get him. We would have to over pay for him but I think starting is really important to him especially since Shaq has one more year with Boston.

If we give him 7-8 million that might be good enough.

pacer4ever
01-25-2011, 01:44 PM
If we make Perkins the starter over Roy than i think we could get him. We would have to over pay for him but I think starting is really important to him especially since Shaq has one more year with Boston.

If we give him 7-8 million that might be good enough.

7 million woulnt be over paying ave starting center makes that Perkins is above ave.

Justin Tyme
01-25-2011, 01:48 PM
I'm beginning to warm up to the idea of Nene. He makes 11.3 mil this year with a player option of 11.6 mil next year. What would it take to get Realistically, what would it take to get Nene from Denver? Maybe a core player (Hans), expiring (Dun), and 011 1st?

ballism
01-25-2011, 01:49 PM
I'm curious, why do you think that?

From what I have seen....David West has a solid Mid-range game that doesn't solely rely on low-post scoring.

Indeed. They seem to be great fit offensively. Defensively you'd probably want a mobile super athletic guy who can block shots and hold his own away from the paint against Dirks of the world. West isn't great on that, but he isn't terrible either.
Tbh, there's no player in the world right now who would fix all Hibbert's problems. No perfect match. For the most part, Hibbert right now is below average on both sides of the court. At the start of the year, it seemed like Hibbert is going to be a good jump shooter with effective post game. At that time, it seemed like Varejao was his perfect match. Now? I'm not so sure. It's tough to play two bigs with no jump shot. They'd have to be perfect on everything else, and Hibbert obviously is not.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 01:49 PM
What about Rip Hamilton? 2 years 21 million left. Vet scorer. Seems to fit the description.

Wouldn't Detroit want salary relief for him at this point?

Just trying to brainstorm here.

Then you go after unrestricted Kris Humphries in the offseason. Hansbrough and Humphries would just be a huge pain for teams to play against.
Rip is really not a future guy at all. He most certainly is on the decline IMO. He is what 33 and getting paid 12.5 million per. It would be a no go for me.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Rip is really not a future guy at all. He most certainly is on the decline IMO. He is what 33 and getting paid 12.5 million per. It would be a no go for me.

He is 33 but age shouldn't matter right?

ballism
01-25-2011, 01:58 PM
You don't even need to look at Rip's age to say no at this point, tbh. He's been so inefficient the last few years, his team kept losing, and the stories from the locker room haven't been pretty.

Sookie
01-25-2011, 02:09 PM
I'm beginning to warm up to the idea of Nene. He makes 11.3 mil this year with a player option of 11.6 mil next year. What would it take to get Realistically, what would it take to get Nene from Denver? Maybe a core player (Hans), expiring (Dun), and 011 1st?

Who knows, Denver may want a fire sale. Maybe we could get him without the first, then use TJ, Rush and our first to get Iggy. :D

CableKC
01-25-2011, 02:17 PM
I actually typed something about thinking Perkins will go to NY, but erased it because I thought it was getting off topic a little too much. I can almost guarantee we will see him as a Knick, unless it gets in the way of them getting Carmelo.

I like the Pryzbilla idea. He is a perfect role player. Not a big ego and won't demand a ton of money either. I think Kwame Brown or Nazr Mohammed also fit that role well. Defense, rebounding, and some shot blocking out of your relatively cheap backup center is what any team would love.

I just don't want to sign an Okur or Murphy type at all. In any way, shape, or form.
Pryzbilla will be 32 by the start of the 2011-2012 season. I wouldn't pay for more then a 3 year contract between $5 to $6 mil per season as a backup Center playing around 20+ mpg to fill the Foster role....but I know that the Knicks were pursuing him this season....so I'll guess that he'll end up there.

As for Kwame or Nazr, I'd pass on both as the 1st Backup Center behind Hibbert ( basically what Foster does now ) unless we signed them to fill the role that Solo fills as a 3rd Backup Center behind Hibbert and whatever Backup Center that we sign.

CableKC
01-25-2011, 02:34 PM
I don't think Hibbert and West could fit in the same court, Hibbert needs somebody that could take some pressure off him by playing D and getting rebounds, in other words he needs a garbage man, somebody that doesn't need plays call for him and to me the only way West is effective is when he plays pick and roll or they call iso plays for him.
For a Starting PF, I'd love to get a "best of both worlds" Starting PF that can be a "garbage man" that can rebound and defend while also be a solid 3rd-4th scoring option that opposing Teams can't sag off of. Unfortunately, no such player exists IMHO.


If we get West we will need a garbage man at the center position because Hibbert is just no that type of guy.
IMHO, because I think that we need both a Starting PF to play next to Granger and a Backup Center to play behind Hibbert....I'd prefer to go with going after David West ( as the starting PF ) and Pryzbilla ( as the backup Center ). To me, this would fill the need for a solid scoring PF that has a solid midrange game and is athletic enough to defend the Josh Smith / Dirk Nowitzki type PFs while getting a solid backup Center with some size that perfectly fills the role of rebounding and defending the paint.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 02:48 PM
He is 33 but age shouldn't matter right?
Age does matter when he clearly doesn't have much left in the tank and is signed for a huge contract for the next 2 years. As stated before West minutes don't reflect his age and a contract of 4 years is reasonable. In addition we might already have our starting sg in George. I would much rather establish a good front court for the Pacers then add a declining sg who is over paid and doesn't play much defense.

CableKC
01-25-2011, 03:00 PM
Then you go after unrestricted Kris Humphries in the offseason. Hansbrough and Humphries would just be a huge pain for teams to play against.
IMHO....we need to fill the following spots in our Frontcourt rotation:

- A starting quality PF that can score, rebound and defend
- A solid Backup Center that can also be an emergency Starting Center
- Added Depth at the PF and Center spots to fill the role that Solo and Mcbob fill right now

IMHO....Hansbrough fills the "1st PF" off the bench to play behind a Starting Quality PF. What role would Humpheries play on the roster? Unless he'd fill the Backup Center role....Humpheries limited offensive skills would not fill my pre-requisite for a Starting PF.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 03:15 PM
Age does matter when he clearly doesn't have much left in the tank and is signed for a huge contract for the next 2 years. As stated before West minutes don't reflect his age and a contract of 4 years is reasonable. In addition we might already have our starting sg in George. I would much rather establish a good front court for the Pacers then add a declining sg who is over paid and doesn't play much defense.

So explain to me how you know RH doesn't have much left in the tank at 33 but Dwest will at 32 next year? You are correct Hamilton makes to much money(12mil) but didn't he got that contract when he was like 31 or 30 and Detroit was thinking that age was not an issue? By what you are telling me you are fine with giving Dwest 10mil a year for 4 years and by the time he is done with his deal he'll be 36, I'm sorry but I don't think is worth it.

And by the way Dwest is not that good of a defender either.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 03:30 PM
IMO, Bird has only really done two things right - he hasn't significantly added salary and he drafted PG. I've disagreed with nearly everything else. IMO, his mistakes far outweigh his hits.


This is one thing i cannot stand is when folks make these erroneous type of statements without providing any sort of support for their belief. Fine, Bird has only done two things right in your opinion and his mistakes far outweigh his hits.. please elaborate on what mistakes you are referring too.

So you do not like the following moves:

1) JO trade- rid ourselves of an overpaid IR player, in exchange for a pg, Hibbert, and 10M expiring in Rasho
2) Murphy nets us Collison
3) solid draft picks, nothing spectacular but at least these guys are in the league, even top ten picks dont always work out and Bird has had zero top 10 picks, other than George. Hansbrough, Rush, Hibbert, solid core.

and the other one you mentioned about not adding salary, the thing is this is Larry Bird's home state, and I do not see him as some impatient GM who will take risks that will ultimately cost this team even longer in terms of rebuilding. Bird is going to be patient, and not take BS from anyone, if the trade is right so be it.. but now we have cap room and a core group of players and are in a position to be a player at the trade deadline.

Other than Obrien i like everything Bird is doing. So many folks b*tch and moan about Bird but remember, he had Tinsley, JO, Jackhole, Artest, a brawl, retirement of an icon in Miller, and he is 3 years into the GM role, he has done an exceptional job.

its just some folks like to hear themselves p*ssing and whining for the fun of it.

No one on here knows what the Simons have required of Bird, maybe he was told to get rid of the bad characters, doesnt matter, Bird has done one helluva a job imo.

again.. would like to hear the "mistakes that outwiegh the hits".. but i assume your just blowing smoke like all the other Bird critics on here.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 03:38 PM
That poopoo platter for their Houston's starting SG & PF! Houston would laugh at Bird and then hang up. You don't want to give up anything, but you want Houston to give away Martin and Scola, WOW. You truly think Houston wouldn't want a Pacer core player or two back for Martin & Scola?? Your suggested trade has "homerism" written all over it. If you were a Rocket fan, you'd be happy if Houston traded Martin & Scola for Rush, Dunleavy, Ford, and a 1st? I didn't think so.

Try reading the entire post before responding, it may help you with providing an appropriate response. I stated very clearly, and your welcome to read again that the package initially mentioned would be the starting point to negotiations. Are you able to understand what is meant by this? If so, you would not be implying that was the finalization package offerred.

Moreover, the Rockets are a team that will be over the cap next year if a hard cap is in place, and they are not even an elite team in the west, they can keep the contracts of Martin and Scola over us sending them equal value for those two, as a pacer fan i prefer the cap space.

as mentioned previously, Bird is hinting at a trade to be made for vets, and therefore trying to consider those options he may be weighing. overally though, the cap space seems the best action to take.

beast23
01-25-2011, 03:49 PM
This is how I feel about the whole Dwest thing, is he going to make the team a playoffs contender? Yes, is he going to make them championship contenders, I don't think so.
By the way if they think about getting Dwest they better start looking for another home for Hibbert because those guys won't fit together.What in theeee hell are you talking about?

You promote a guy like Scola but have a problem with West? Do you have any idea what the skill sets are of these two players?

You state that Scola would fit better with Hibbert, so let's talk about Scola a little. He seems to be an excellent player offensively anywhere near the basket. He is an okay rebounder. Much of what you read RealGM, Hoopshype, etc. states that his mid-range game is below average. And, I've even see his defensive abilities rated as "mediocre".

And you state that he is a good fit with Hibbert. You have absolutely got to be kidding me! And that is not to mention that without a PnR/PnP game, he is one of the worst possible fits for Collison.

The only objection you have come up with regarding West appears to be his age. Yet West is an excellent, not just good, but GD excellent mid-range shooter, does an excellent job playing the PnR/PnP game and does a very good job on the boards. He has the reputation of being an "above average defender" and one of the sources above rates him as being one of the "most underrated players in the NBA".

I somehow think that West will mesh much, much better with Hibbert than Scola... and meshing with Collison, Scola is not even on the same planet with West, let alone able to be mentioned in the same paragraph.

Now if you would like to start looking for another home for Hibbert for other reasons, fine. That's another thread and a whole different story. I might even agree.

If you have an objection to West, you are going to have to come at your opposition with a hell of a lot more objection than just "age".

aaronb
01-25-2011, 03:49 PM
This is one thing i cannot stand is when folks make these erroneous type of statements without providing any sort of support for their belief. Fine, Bird has only done two things right in your opinion and his mistakes far outweigh his hits.. please elaborate on what mistakes you are referring too.

So you do not like the following moves:

1) JO trade- rid ourselves of an overpaid IR player, in exchange for a pg, Hibbert, and 10M expiring in Rasho
2) Murphy nets us Collison
3) solid draft picks, nothing spectacular but at least these guys are in the league, even top ten picks dont always work out and Bird has had zero top 10 picks, other than George. Hansbrough, Rush, Hibbert, solid core.

and the other one you mentioned about not adding salary, the thing is this is Larry Bird's home state, and I do not see him as some impatient GM who will take risks that will ultimately cost this team even longer in terms of rebuilding. Bird is going to be patient, and not take BS from anyone, if the trade is right so be it.. but now we have cap room and a core group of players and are in a position to be a player at the trade deadline.

Other than Obrien i like everything Bird is doing. So many folks b*tch and moan about Bird but remember, he had Tinsley, JO, Jackhole, Artest, a brawl, retirement of an icon in Miller, and he is 3 years into the GM role, he has done an exceptional job.

its just some folks like to hear themselves p*ssing and whining for the fun of it.

No one on here knows what the Simons have required of Bird, maybe he was told to get rid of the bad characters, doesnt matter, Bird has done one helluva a job imo.

again.. would like to hear the "mistakes that outwiegh the hits".. but i assume your just blowing smoke like all the other Bird critics on here.


Guess it depends what you think of this current roster? I see some role players and 3 guys who are probably rotation players on an elite NBA team.

You'd hope we'd have a couple of elite prospects after not making the playoffs since 2004? Larry isn't really a VICTIM of not having any top 10 picks. It's' been by his own doing.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 03:59 PM
Guess it depends what you think of this current roster? I see some role players and 3 guys who are probably rotation players on an elite NBA team.

You'd hope we'd have a couple of elite prospects after not making the playoffs since 2004? Larry isn't really a VICTIM of not having any top 10 picks. It's' been by his own doing.

Bird has been in charge since 07, not 04 as I see it. The Walsh/Bird combo was a cruise control relationship at the beginning. The pacers were routinely competing in the playoffs. Walsh brought Bird in to be the eventual replacement. Walsh was still had "final say." Then the brawl, and many things changed. Artest :censored: our franchise. Im not even referring to the brawl, moreso the rap career artest wanted to begin 5 games into the following season. We had to deal him, JO was falling apart, Tins is shooting up Indy, and Jackhole was always involved in some way as well.

What im saying is, Walsh/Bird now had decisions to make, and someone needed to become accountable. It was orginally a good idea Walsh/Bird, but not after the franchise endured various events. Bird took over in 07, that is when you have to evaluate him and his performance.

beast23
01-25-2011, 04:00 PM
What about Rip Hamilton? 2 years 21 million left. Vet scorer. Seems to fit the description.

Wouldn't Detroit want salary relief for him at this point?

Just trying to brainstorm here.

Then you go after unrestricted Kris Humphries in the offseason. Hansbrough and Humphries would just be a huge pain for teams to play against.
We would really need Kstat to weigh in on Rip, but I seem to recall that he indicated that it would be good for Detroit for Rip to be gone. I seemed to pick up a negative sentiment regarding Rip from Kstat, but I could be wrong. From my perspective, what he delivers is not necessarily worth his salary. There is something in the back of my mind about him being a problem of some sort. I'll sift through some earlier posts by Kstat and see what I can find... in the meantime, if Kstat weighs in, that would be great.

As for Humphries, I agree that he is like Hansbrough in that he is a player that other players hate to play against. You probably recall that type of player in pickup ball... you physically earn everything you get and when you wake up the next morning, you scratch your head and wonder how it was possible to sustain that many bruises. As long as they have decent skills to go along with their physical game, I don't think you can ever have too many of that type of player.

aaronb
01-25-2011, 04:04 PM
Bird has been in charge since 07, not 04 as I see it. The Walsh/Bird combo was a cruise control relationship at the beginning. The pacers were routinely competing in the playoffs. Walsh brought Bird in to be the eventual replacement. Walsh was still had "final say." Then the brawl, and many things changed. Artest :censored: our franchise. Im not even referring to the brawl, moreso the rap career artest wanted to begin 5 games into the following season. We had to deal him, JO was falling apart, Tins is shooting up Indy, and Jackhole was always involved in some way as well.

What im saying is, Walsh/Bird now had decisions to make, and someone needed to become accountable. It was orginally a good idea Walsh/Bird, but not after the franchise endured various events. Bird took over in 07, that is when you have to evaluate him and his performance.


I can agree that he has made decent moves to get Hibby and Collision. He just hasn't done anything quickly enough to rebuild this franchise. He hasn't really ever picked a direction and went for it. He's more or less sat on his hands and expected the same basic crew to develop from 30 game winner to contenders.

You just aren't rewarded in the NBA for staying 10-14. It's litterally the worst place for a franchise to be. And yet we've been there for 6 going on 7 years.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 04:06 PM
To beast23 Luis Scola 19ppg and 8.4rpg/ David West 19ppg and 7.3rpg, yeah Scola is not in the same planet as West even though he is getting more rebounds......

Edit: I have a feeling that you are letting the websites reviews on Scola to interfere with your judgment, Scola is one of the best pick and roll guys in the game(again I don't know were you got that he is not good at it) and his jumper is pretty good too.

BringJackBack
01-25-2011, 04:10 PM
To beast23 Luis Scola 19ppg and 8.4rpg/ David West 19ppg and 7.3rpg, yeah Scola is not in the same planet as West even though he is getting more rebounds......

Troy Murphy averaged 14 and 10, and Kevin Love averaged and 11 last year, yeah not in the same planet at all.......

Oh wait.

Anyways, I like both Scola and West, but West is a much better fit for Collison and Roy. Scola and Roy would probably clog up the middle.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 04:12 PM
Guess it depends what you think of this current roster? I see some role players and 3 guys who are probably rotation players on an elite NBA team.

You'd hope we'd have a couple of elite prospects after not making the playoffs since 2004? Larry isn't really a VICTIM of not having any top 10 picks. It's' been by his own doing.

Its not Birds own doing that this franchise sufferred a devastating blow the night of the brawl. Lets look at the roster though Bird inherited in 07.

Tins was the point gaurd, DC is an upgrade.
Jackson at SG, we now have Rush, and PG, and a non-milk drinker in stephenson (who some think is good..?)

Artest- had to move him, we have Granger, Dunleavy (expiring)

JO- moved him for Hibbert who I woulda taken straight up to remove JO's contract from the books. We have Hansbrough who I am sure you do not believe will be a good player, but I think in 2-3 seasons this guy will be capable of 20-10 on some nights, and provide rebounding and defense as well.

Overall, our current roster is in much better shape then when Bird first took over as the President of operations. He has also done this in THREE seasons.

We went from the top to the bottom in no time. How many franchises can recover from such a thing. Hell the Bulls lost Jordan and were awful for over 10 years.. and w/o the NBA rigging the lottery they would still be awful. How long before the CAVS ever make the playoffs again??

Folks.. we were a :censored: contender year in year out for 9+ seasons, and then we had to blow it up, maybe Bird did :censored: up by not completely rebuilding from the get go.. but i also see the reasons why we tried to contend as well.

all im sayin is.. there usually is not a real precise plan for going from contender status, to rebuild, and contend once again. Birds has only been in charge for 3 years, he deserves 3 more seasons imo. the tinsley situation was handled poorly, but at one time tins could have been an allstar in this league.

I have stated it more than once and still am convinced its true.. Bird is building a team that will contend for a decade.

beast23
01-25-2011, 04:13 PM
To beast23 Luis Scola 19ppg and 8.4rpg/ David West 19ppg and 7.3rpg, yeah Scola is not in the same planet as West even though he is getting more rebounds......Ah.... pretty much what I expected. Now you are going to recite statistics to show that their productivity is similar.

But that does not address at all where they are truly not anywhere near being on the same planet. And that is the respective aspects of their game and how that might translate to some form of synergy with the present Pacer players, namely Hibbert and Collison.

But I do applaud you for not using the word "age".

rm1369
01-25-2011, 04:14 PM
Other than Obrien i like everything Bird is doing. So many folks b*tch and moan about Bird but remember, he had Tinsley, JO, Jackhole, Artest, a brawl, retirement of an icon in Miller, and he is 3 years into the GM role, he has done an exceptional job.

its just some folks like to hear themselves p*ssing and whining for the fun of it.

No one on here knows what the Simons have required of Bird, maybe he was told to get rid of the bad characters, doesnt matter, Bird has done one helluva a job imo.

again.. would like to hear the "mistakes that outwiegh the hits".. but i assume your just blowing smoke like all the other Bird critics on here.

How about you tell me when Bird started and I'll tell you what is wrong with what he's done. Here you give him credit for dealing with many things that are not from the last three years. If he gets credit for dealing with SJax then he gets credit for Troy and Dun. If he gets credit for Artest (other than posing on a magazine cover w/ him) then he gets credit for the botched Peja and Al deals. If you want to take a ****ty, condesceding attitude about someones opinion then i'd at least like you to get your facts straight before I reply.

Sookie
01-25-2011, 04:15 PM
Ah.... pretty much what I expected. Now you are going to recite statistics to show that their productivity is similar.

But that does not address at all where they are truly not anywhere near being on the same planet. And that is the respective aspects of their game and how that might translate to some form of synergy with the present Pacer players, namely Hibbert and Collison.

But I do applaud you for not using the word "age".

West is quite often a black hole, which I don't think fits next to Hibbert. He also isn't that great of a post defender, which Hibbert needs. And he's undersized, and Hibbert needs a "bull" in the post to help him out, because Roy is a finese player. Personally, I'm much more concerned with how well a PF plays with Roy, than any other player on the team.

xBulletproof
01-25-2011, 04:21 PM
I can agree that he has made decent moves to get Hibby and Collision.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5umzTsvwI68/SeDaZkLkHLI/AAAAAAAAAcU/lc-ivsLQ8FQ/s400/047_Fainted.jpg

aaronb
01-25-2011, 04:27 PM
Hell the Bulls lost Jordan and were awful for over 10 years.. and w/o the NBA rigging the lottery they would still be awful. How long before the CAVS ever make the playoffs again??



The Bulls have a MUCH superior roster compared to ours right now. I could even see the Cavs getting to 50 wins faster than we do. Simply due to the fact that they are going to end up with 2-3 elite level prospects over the couple of seasons.

If you aren't going to be good. You need to be bad. Or else its Groudhog day for the franchise.

Justin Tyme
01-25-2011, 04:35 PM
Try reading the entire post before responding, it may help you with providing an appropriate response. I stated very clearly, and your welcome to read again that the package initially mentioned would be the starting point to negotiations. Are you able to understand what is meant by this? If so, you would not be implying that was the finalization package offerred.

Moreover, the Rockets are a team that will be over the cap next year if a hard cap is in place, and they are not even an elite team in the west, they can keep the contracts of Martin and Scola over us sending them equal value for those two, as a pacer fan i prefer the cap space.

as mentioned previously, Bird is hinting at a trade to be made for vets, and therefore trying to consider those options he may be weighing. overally though, the cap space seems the best action to take.


I can read quite well, thank you! I've been doing it long b4 your were ever a twinkle in your father's eye. Your proposed offer was ridiculous, and you know it. That's why when it was pointed out you became so defensive. Why insult a team with a poopoo platter offer to begin with? There is an art to neogiation and insulting someone isn't going to get a deal done. Both sides have to feel comfortable with the trade for a deal to come to fruitition.

Kstat
01-25-2011, 04:37 PM
We would really need Kstat to weigh in on Rip, but I seem to recall that he indicated that it would be good for Detroit for Rip to be gone. I seemed to pick up a negative sentiment regarding Rip from Kstat, but I could be wrong. From my perspective, what he delivers is not necessarily worth his salary. There is something in the back of my mind about him being a problem of some sort. I'll sift through some earlier posts by Kstat and see what I can find... in the meantime, if Kstat weighs in, that would be great.

As for Humphries, I agree that he is like Hansbrough in that he is a player that other players hate to play against. You probably recall that type of player in pickup ball... you physically earn everything you get and when you wake up the next morning, you scratch your head and wonder how it was possible to sustain that many bruises. As long as they have decent skills to go along with their physical game, I don't think you can ever have too many of that type of player.

If Rip wanted a buyout, he'd have one tomorrow. Heck, I'd pitch in.

Rip feels under appreciated in Detroit. It's not as if he doesn't have game anymore. He scored 34 the day after the free press ran a big story about him quitting on the team and the coach. Of course, he hasn't been seen or heard from since, which is why he got benched. He only shows up when he has a point to make.

I can't stand Rip now, because he picks and chooses which games he's going to play hard. Even the most mediocre shooting guards light him up now.

We've been much, much better defensively since he got glued to the bench, and we're winning games.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 04:45 PM
So explain to me how you know RH doesn't have much left in the tank at 33 but Dwest will at 32 next year? You are correct Hamilton makes to much money(12mil) but didn't he got that contract when he was like 31 or 30 and Detroit was thinking that age was not an issue? By what you are telling me you are fine with giving Dwest 10mil a year for 4 years and by the time he is done with his deal he'll be 36, I'm sorry but I don't think is worth it.

And by the way Dwest is not that good of a defender either.
Vnzla81, I love your math man. Seriously West is 30 years old now. Next year will not make him 32 years old even if the earth rotates around the sun a little faster .

Rip's production is droping off right now as we speak. His FG% is going down his rpg are going down and his apg is going down.

Assuming we could resign West it would be for this year and on. That would make him 34-35. Still younger than Camby is and still able to contribute barring injuries.

Are you saying Rips a better deal for us?

beast23
01-25-2011, 04:55 PM
West is quite often a black hole, which I don't think fits next to Hibbert. He also isn't that great of a post defender, which Hibbert needs. And he's undersized, and Hibbert needs a "bull" in the post to help him out, because Roy is a finese player. Personally, I'm much more concerned with how well a PF plays with Roy, than any other player on the team.
I haven't seen a lot of games West has played, but have probably picked up on 7-8 games this year. I can't say that I've formed an opinion of him being a black hole. He plays nearly 35 minutes per game and averages fewer than 15 shots per game. His shooting percentage is good, his free throw percentage is about 80%, so one might think his team would go to him for more opportunities than he has taken.

On the other hand, his assist-to-turnover ratio is 1.1, which is probably around the average for a PF. You have some guys like Odom and Gasol that have much better ratios, but you also have guys like Stoudamire, Aldridge and Randolph that are much worse. Griffin, Love and Nowitzki are similar.

Like I said, I have't thought of West as a black hole, and the number of shots he takes and his assist-to-turnover ratio would seem to indicate that he is not a "selfish" player.

I do agree with you that an interior warrior would be a great match with Hibbert, but we also need a player capable of scoring and running the PnR/PnP. I promote West because, although he is not a Dale Davis near the rim, he seems to have the best overall match of skills for what we need.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 05:19 PM
West is quite often a black hole, which I don't think fits next to Hibbert. He also isn't that great of a post defender, which Hibbert needs. And he's undersized, and Hibbert needs a "bull" in the post to help him out, because Roy is a finese player. Personally, I'm much more concerned with how well a PF plays with Roy, than any other player on the team.
Sometimes a guy is just to hard to build around and given that opportunities are slim to get good players I would rather get a good pf now and see if Roy actually is worth the concern of building around.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 05:23 PM
Vnzla81, I love your math man. Seriously West is 30 years old now. Next year will not make him 32 years old even if the earth rotates around the sun a little faster .

Rip's production is droping off right now as we speak. His FG% is going down his rpg are going down and his apg is going down.

Assuming we could resign West it would be for this year and on. That would make him 34-35. Still younger than Camby is and still able to contribute barring injuries.

Are you saying Rips a better deal for us?

He'll be 32 years next year in august and no I don't want another old guy in Hamilton.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 05:29 PM
I haven't seen a lot of games West has played, but have probably picked up on 7-8 games this year.
.

So you haven't seen that many games and you keep arguing with me in how amazing West is? Let me guess you haven't seen that many Houston games either, like I said before you need to stop reading the websides reviews and actually watch a game before your try to argue with somebody:twocents:

beast23
01-25-2011, 06:18 PM
So you haven't seen that many games and you keep arguing with me in how amazing West is? Let me guess you haven't seen that many Houston games either, like I said before you need to stop reading the websides reviews and actually watch a game before your try to argue with somebody:twocents:I've seen almost every team play probably 7-8 games. I get so frustrated with watching the Pacers at times, that I switch channels and pick up on other games.

If you knew me, you would know that I am extremely analytical and am very open-minded.

In years of management, I set the game plan. But I was not so arrogant in my ways that I did not keep an open ear for the ideas of others. And, on the occassions that my underlings came at me with a plan they felt was better, I had no hesitation whatsoever in shifting gears for a better way of accomplishing the goal.

Therefore, I read many websites; that is not to say that I agree with everything I read. I also follow the statistical performance of players that interest me, but readily admit that statistics is never the entire part of the story, as I have more or less stated in a previous post challenging you.

You take exception to my having watched only 7-8 games of West, which may not be as many games as some on here have seen, but is probably more than a majority of forum members have seen, since many members watch only the Pacers and perhaps the top games of contending teams.

But what I don't do is merely consider the statistical or biographical information regarding a player. And I don't defend my position by making vague objections to the player and quote only statistics, I actually render an opinion that attempts to recognize the various aspects of how that player plays the game and what his specific strengths are in respect to how he might help (or not help) the Pacers.

So, I guess in response, I'll promise to attempt to watch more games. And, I'm hoping you better use the information you have gained by watching more games to combine that information with the statistical basis you seem to enjoy and weigh that combined result against the needs of the team.

I believe that if you actually did this, there is no way you would ever desire Scola over West.

BringJackBack
01-25-2011, 06:19 PM
So you haven't seen that many games and you keep arguing with me in how amazing West is? Let me guess you haven't seen that many Houston games either, like I said before you need to stop reading the websides reviews and actually watch a game before your try to argue with somebody:twocents:

...How many games do you expect him to watch? I'm pretty sure not many on here grab their popcorn every single Hornets game just to see David West. It's called common sense. David West is currently putting up Luis Scola's numbers on a (semi) contending team.

Also, if he was such a terrible defender than the Hornets wouldn't overall be as good as they are.

The comment you made just made no sense.

Gamble1
01-25-2011, 07:01 PM
...How many games do you expect him to watch? I'm pretty sure not many on here grab their popcorn every single Hornets game just to see David West. It's called common sense. David West has been putting up Luis Scola's numbers longer than Scola has his entire career.

Also, if he was such a terrible defender than the Hornets wouldn't overall be as good as they are.

The comment you made just made no sense.
Sorry I had to fix this.

I think the appropiate question to ask is how many games has Vnzla81 watched with an unbiased point of view? I don't care who you are if you watched every NBA game you need to go to the doctor and get a reality check.

I would be happy with either one at this point and I think West comes cheaper in the long run. We would probably have to trade Hibbert, Rush, our first round pick and Collison to get Scola.

CableKC
01-25-2011, 07:14 PM
If Rip wanted a buyout, he'd have one tomorrow. Heck, I'd pitch in.

Rip feels under appreciated in Detroit. It's not as if he doesn't have game anymore. He scored 34 the day after the free press ran a big story about him quitting on the team and the coach. Of course, he hasn't been seen or heard from since, which is why he got benched. He only shows up when he has a point to make.

I can't stand Rip now, because he picks and chooses which games he's going to play hard. Even the most mediocre shooting guards light him up now.

We've been much, much better defensively since he got glued to the bench, and we're winning games.
The question that we are trying to guage is whether Rip ( at the ripe old age of 32 by April 2011 at the end of the 2010-2011 season ) still has enough "gas in the tank". By the end of his contract....he will be 33 at the start of the 2012-2013 season and 34 by the end of the 2012-2013 season.

My impression, based off our previous discussions on this very topic on Rip, is that he would still be effective. Despite his recent attitude and lack of willingness to "show up" ( which I admit sucks and is unprofessional )....it would seem that he and the Pistons simply need a "change in scenary". I never thought that Rip was already headed downhill but that he still was capable of performing on a regular basis and that he was still in good condition.

If the answer is that he simply needs a change in scenary and that his recent poor play isn't a result of a decline in his skills....I'd consider a Rip+Wilcox+TerricoWhite for TJ+Posey+Inferno trade. My hope is that he's still capable of being a 2nd/3rd Reliable scoring option on the Team for the next 2 seasons. The Pistons would be saving roughly $6 to 9 mil in guaranteed $$$ owed over the next 3 seasons.

By getting rid of the Posey and Inferno's contract...Rip's Contract won't be that burdensome and won't significantly impact the 2011-2012 SalaryCap.

IMHO...I could see Bird go after a Veteran SG that can provide solid scoring consistency to the lineup while adding some leadership skills to the lockerroom. This would also allow PG to ease into his role and be ready to see an increase in minutes by the end of the 2011-2012 season.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 07:17 PM
How about you tell me when Bird started and I'll tell you what is wrong with what he's done. Here you give him credit for dealing with many things that are not from the last three years. If he gets credit for dealing with SJax then he gets credit for Troy and Dun. If he gets credit for Artest (other than posing on a magazine cover w/ him) then he gets credit for the botched Peja and Al deals. If you want to take a ****ty, condesceding attitude about someones opinion then i'd at least like you to get your facts straight before I reply.

Officially Bird started the year he was in complete charge of basketball operations, the 07-08 season.

Im giving him credit for turning this team around and giving it direction. 03-07 Walsh was in control. Walsh/Bird were together during the Jack/Al for Murphleavy; this trade is pretty much a wash. Bird does get the credit for taking Murphy and getting DC in return.

The Peja then Al moves were made during the Walsh/Bird era as well. Specualtion was Bird posed on the cover of SI with Artest, but had intentions of trading him that season, difficult task to accomplish when Artest wants to "promote" his rap career 5 games into the season.

Enlighten me with your list of Birds decisions that you do not approve of. and let me know how Bird couldve handled it any differently with the team he inherited in 07.

which consisted of: Tins, Dun, Murph, JO, Granger, and not much of anything else.

was Bird to go out and make trades with these super assets? His only option to improve this team was via the draft and letting the contracts expire or else get taken in a trade (which Bird has not allowed to this point). All Birds trades he has came out ahead or at best even.

1) JO trade was good
2) Rush, McBob, Jack for Bayless, Diagou, was even
3) Murphy for DC was significantly to our advantage.

his drafts have been Rush, Hibbert, Hansbrough, George. with some good 2nd rounders in Price and possibly stephenson.

Your statement was Birds mistakes have outweighed his hits.. please elaborate.

CableKC
01-25-2011, 07:25 PM
About this Scola and David West discussion......

Let's just all agree to "agree to disagree". I don't think that both sides of the "Scola Vs. West" discussion are far off from the truth ( when it comes to what both Players can and cannot do ).

Both are very solid Players....where one or the other can be considered good Frontcourt acquisitions IF they can be acquired in the first place.

I think that all of us can agree that if either could be had that either of them would fill a need for the Team...whether it be on the offensive end ( West ) or the defensive end ( Scola ).

However, to be fair....I don't see the Rockets parting with Scola as he's the only reliable piece on the Team. He'd likely be sweetner to be included if Kevin Martin was to be shipped out. I know that many of you disapprove...but despite his reputation for poor defense.....I'd certainly consider a Kevin Martin + Luis Scola trade involving Expiring Contracts + 1st round pick.

If the cost is too high for you, then I'd simply wait it out for David West while going after Pryzbilla as a Backup Center to rebound/block shots/defend the Low Post. ;)

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 07:33 PM
The Bulls have a MUCH superior roster compared to ours right now. I could even see the Cavs getting to 50 wins faster than we do. Simply due to the fact that they are going to end up with 2-3 elite level prospects over the couple of seasons.

If you aren't going to be good. You need to be bad. Or else its Groudhog day for the franchise.

the bulls were lucky in getting the top pick during the Rose draft. I think the nba is rigged in this regard.. Bron to cleveland, Ewing to NY, Rose to chicago.. sometimes you gotta wonder if the nba is simply about big market teams.

going forward, the pacers have had approximately 7 down seasons. teams like the celts were awful for a long time, the lakers were on the decline prior to the gasol deal, bulls missed on many high draft picks, or dealt them away before they finally became a solid team, the pistons will be terrible for awhile with dumars boneheaded signings in Gordon and Villauaneva.

in 3 seasons LEGEND has been able to give this franchise some direction, cap room, young core, and have us in a great financial position heading into the new cba agreement.

i can see the reason why you would have wanted us to rebuild right from the get go.. but how are you going to rebuild and still have Dun/Murph contracts, which was made during the Walsh/Bird era.. and was completed to get rid of jackhole.

if your critical of Bird for that reason you should reevaluate your stance. In fact, Bird kind of did exactly what you were asking for, he moved JO's fat contract for an expiring, a young player, and a pg in ford, who at the time was a better option than Tins.

we then tried to move Tinman but to no avail.. Bird might have handled this one poorly, but i can forgive the guy b/c it was a unique situation and it was basically his rookie year in charge. NO EXCUSE nvrtheless, but other than Tinman, Bird has done very well.

so agian, if your critical b/c Bird did not blow it up.. well i think he did try, Tins was unmovable along w/ dun and murph, but he did get JO's contract off the books.

if your complaint is not tanking and getting lower picks.. there are certainly two sides to that coin.

overall, i do not believe any GM could have done much better in 07 with the roster available.

Kstat
01-25-2011, 07:45 PM
The question that we are trying to guage is whether Rip ( at the ripe old age of 32 by April 2011 at the end of the 2010-2011 season ) still has enough "gas in the tank". By the end of his contract....he will be 33 at the start of the 2012-2013 season and 34 by the end of the 2012-2013 season.

My impression, based off our previous discussions on this very topic on Rip, is that he would still be effective. Despite his recent attitude and lack of willingness to "show up" ( which I admit sucks and is unprofessional )....it would seem that he and the Pistons simply need a "change in scenary". I never thought that Rip was already headed downhill but that he still was capable of performing on a regular basis and that he was still in good condition.

If the answer is that he simply needs a change in scenary and that his recent poor play isn't a result of a decline in his skills....I'd consider a Rip+Wilcox+TerricoWhite for TJ+Posey+Inferno trade. My hope is that he's still capable of being a 2nd/3rd Reliable scoring option on the Team for the next 2 seasons. The Pistons would be saving roughly $6 to 9 mil in guaranteed $$$ owed over the next 3 seasons.

By getting rid of the Posey and Inferno's contract...Rip's Contract won't be that burdensome and won't significantly impact the 2011-2012 SalaryCap.

IMHO...I could see Bird go after a Veteran SG that can provide solid scoring consistency to the lineup while adding some leadership skills to the lockerroom. This would also allow PG to ease into his role and be ready to see an increase in minutes by the end of the 2011-2012 season.

Rip can be plenty effective over the next 3 years. His mental state is what's bothering him. He keeps himself in fantastic physical shape.

Kstat
01-25-2011, 07:47 PM
going forward, the pacers have had approximately 7 down seasons. teams like the celts were awful for a long time, the lakers were on the decline prior to the gasol deal, bulls missed on many high draft picks, or dealt them away before they finally became a solid team, the pistons will be terrible for awhile with dumars boneheaded signings in Gordon and Villauaneva.

in 3 seasons LEGEND has been able to give this franchise some direction, cap room, young core, and have us in a great financial position heading into the new cba agreement.


ok...don't let me rain on your parade...but there has been very, very little difference in production between "bonehead" Dumars and "LEGEND" Bird's teams over the last 2 years...

At least gets your facts straight. His "bonehead" move was extending RIp's absurd contract. I have no issue with Gordon, and while I would deal CV31 for equal value, he hasn't exactly killed us in games either. Overpaid, but not grossly so.

ballism
01-25-2011, 07:48 PM
Bron to cleveland, Ewing to NY, Rose to chicago.. sometimes you gotta wonder if the nba is simply about big market teams.


Is Cleveland considered a big market? An honest question, since Im not from US, and purely by population size Cleveland's not very impressive.

CableKC
01-25-2011, 07:50 PM
Rip can be plenty effective over the next 3 years. His mental state is what's bothering him. He keeps himself in fantastic physical shape.
I know that many hate to bring up this analogy....but I really get the sense that Rip is more like Reggie when it comes to his constant off-the-ball movement and even when it comes to conditioning.

As mentioned...if the Pistons are willing to look at moving him and he could be had for TJ+Posey+Inferno...I'd do it in a heartbeat.

We'd solidify the SG/SF rotation for the next 3 seasons with Granger/Rip/BRush/PG. BRush will then shift into a more comfortable role of being the 6th Man where his inconsistency doesn't kill us on the scoring end while his defense and spot up 3pt shooting can be effectively used. PG will have time to ease into his role over the next 1.5 seasons and then take a bigger role as Rip slowly takes a more "elder statesman" role towards the end of his contract.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 07:51 PM
ok...don't let me rain on your parade...but there has been very, very little difference in production between "bonehead" Dumars and "LEGEND" Bird's teams over the last 2 years...

touche.. dont wanna rain on your parade but the pistons are not going anywhere for the next several seasons. they are in cap hell.. and will be with villaneauva and gordon.

then again, i might be wrong..i dont follow the pistions with good reason. outside of the sheed acquisition, dumars is a horrible GM.. pacer fans should be so lucky to have LEGEND in charge.

gotta love that Darko selection over the kid from syracuse..

BringJackBack
01-25-2011, 07:53 PM
Really not in the mood for one of these..

CableKC
01-25-2011, 07:54 PM
TJ Ford...ever the consumate Professional...even to the end.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110125/SPORTS04/101250340/1062/SPORTS04/Pacers-guard-Ford-takes-latest-demotion-stride


Three seasons, three demotions for Indiana Pacers point guard T.J. Ford.
Posted on www.IndyStar.com
Written by Mike Wells

Ford's latest banishment occurred during the team's 0-for-4 trip that concluded Sunday with a loss at Denver.

It didn't happen because Ford played his way out the rotation, according to coach Jim O'Brien, but because the struggling Pacers are gradually beginning their youth movement. They are looking to see who they can count on in the future.

Ford has been replaced by second-year player A.J. Price. "It wasn't anything that was discussed to me," Ford said. "It kind of just happened. Going into the season, I felt at some point it would happen. In my view, I'm not too surprised. Just a little shocked it happened right now."

Ford showed up ready for the team's shootaround prior to last week's game at Golden State when he was told not to worry about taking part.
The best thing for the Pacers and Ford may be for them to cut ties. There's a possibility it could happen before the Feb. 24 deadline.
Ford is a steady point guard. He also has an $8.5 million expiring contract.
The Pacers are trying to move Ford now that they feel comfortable with Price and rookie Lance Stephenson as the second and third point guards.

Ford declined the Pacers' offer to buy out his contract for about $3 million less than his current salary last summer. He is receptive to a trade instead of spending the rest of the season on the bench.

"By making the decision (of sitting me), I would hope that's the case," he said. "I don't see why it would be best for me to be here the whole year. That's their call. Either way it goes, I'm here and I'm going to still stay ready because anything can happen at any given moment."

No Pacer has had more of an up-and-down relationship with O'Brien than Ford. At the end of the 2008-09 season, Ford was benched in favor of Jarrett Jack. Two months into last season, Ford lost his job to Earl Watson.
Ford hasn't been a locker room distraction, and he's a huge supporter of Price and Stephenson. "That's not me. I'm not going to make it all about me," Ford said. "Things haven't gone the way I would have liked them to, but that's the way it goes."

A few weeks ago, Ford was one of O'Brien's favorites.

O'Brien preferred to use Ford in the fourth quarter of close games over starter Darren Collison because Ford had the experience advantage.
"T.J. Ford has played very well for us," O'Brien said. "He's our best defender from the point guard spot. But A.J. has certain things he can do that T.J. can't do. You have to attempt to win every game and develop a nucleus."
Ford is averaging 5.8 points and 3.6 assists in 19.5 minutes a game this season.

"Pretty much, I understand that the time is up here," he said. "I can just sit here. I was in the same situation last year. I'll continue to cheer guys on because I want to see A.J. and Lance do well. They're part of the future. Under the circumstances, I'll still come to work every day and be professional about it."

Kstat
01-25-2011, 07:57 PM
you are %100 correct sir. Outside of the 1 championship, 2 finals appearances and 7 division titles, DUmars is the worst GM in the NBA.


touche.. dont wanna rain on your parade but the pistons are not going anywhere for the next several seasons. they are in cap hell.. and will be with villaneauva and gordon.


:laugh: and yet with have cap room this offseason. Again, do your research, buddy.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 07:57 PM
Is Cleveland considered a big market? An honest question, since Im not from US, and purely by population size Cleveland's not very impressive.

no of course not. more or less though it seems the nba can manipulate the lottery at times. the year the bulls won, they were 9th i think, the chances of them winning were slim to none.

of course, ewing goes to the knicks when it would have been indiana with the higher selection the first year the lottery was placed.

then again, Oden/Durant coulda went to Boston the year they were a bottom 3 team. if the nba lottery is slightly controlled, the league does us one for killing the franchise like it did during the brawl season, yet the pistions walk away unscathed from the incident.

aaronb
01-25-2011, 08:02 PM
touche.. dont wanna rain on your parade but the pistons are not going anywhere for the next several seasons. they are in cap hell.. and will be with villaneauva and gordon.

then again, i might be wrong..i dont follow the pistions with good reason. outside of the sheed acquisition, dumars is a horrible GM.. pacer fans should be so lucky to have LEGEND in charge.

gotta love that Darko selection over the kid from syracuse..


The Pistons have only been a lotto team for 2 years. Hard to compare their plight to our 6-7 bad years. Greg Monroe is a younger and likely better prospect than anyone we've got. Good chance they draft a better player than us this year.

I also can't accept the Dumars sucks, so it's ok that Larry isn't any good. It's faulty logic.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 08:03 PM
you are %100 correct sir. Outside of the 1 championship, 2 finals appearances and 7 division titles, DUmars is the worst GM in the NBA.

sure, i give Dumars credit for the Sheed pickup, Billups, Wallace, nice group of players he put together over 7 seasons ago. but since 06 the pistons have been irrelevant correct?

then Dumars goes out and signs Gordon/Villaneuva to expensive contracts, and the pistons are still as bad if not worse than the pacers.

i may not be 100% correct, but at least 50%. not much to say on the Darko selection is there.?

one question, would you rather be in the pacers or pistons FO right now. If im choosing, I like what the Pacers have been able to do the last 3 years in adding players and letting contracts expire.

get back to me in 5 years when the Pacers have been winning 50 games consecutitevly and the pistons are still bottom feeders.

Kstat
01-25-2011, 08:04 PM
the Pistons have been irrelevant since 08, not 06. As someone who admittedly doesn't follow them, perhaps you should stop trying to talk about them?

And "get back to me when we're good and you're not" is about the silliest trash talk I've ever heard.

Why do I need to defend Darko? It was the biggest bust pick of the decade. It was also a pick Denver tried to trade for in exchange for Carmelo on draft day. It's not as if Dumars made some radical diversion from conventional logic at the time. LeBron was #1, Darko was #2.

Do I think that pick makes Dumars the worst GM of all time? Nope. He's had a lot more success than he's had failure, and he has plenty to be proud of in his 10 years here.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 08:05 PM
you are %100 correct sir. Outside of the 1 championship, 2 finals appearances and 7 division titles, DUmars is the worst GM in the NBA.



:laugh: and yet with have cap room this offseason. Again, do your research, buddy.

i stated i might be wrong. how much cap room do the pistons have?

pacer4ever
01-25-2011, 08:08 PM
i stated i might be wrong. how much cap room do the pistons have?

they will have 10m next off season

Kstat
01-25-2011, 08:10 PM
much more if we can unload Rip. I think it'll be closer to $7-8 mil without him.

Kstat
01-25-2011, 08:13 PM
As per Dumars, when the team is sold and he's actually allowed freedom to make some deals, I have confidence he will get this team back.

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 08:14 PM
The Pistons have only been a lotto team for 2 years. Hard to compare their plight to our 6-7 bad years. Greg Monroe is a younger and likely better prospect than anyone we've got. Good chance they draft a better player than us this year.

I also can't accept the Dumars sucks, so it's ok that Larry isn't any good. It's faulty logic.

I would prefer Bird over Dumars if that is the direction the conversation is going, i guess i will need to switch gears on this topic.

Dumars has been in charge since 02-03 im estimating.. again i dont follow detroit enuff to really care about their teams front office etc. in almost 8 years Dumars has done well, the sheed move was brilliant b/c otherwise the pacers win it all that season. after that the only credit they get is destroying the pacers franchise, and coming close to beating the spurs if not for a horry shot.

since then though that team has steadily declined. Dumars has had a helluva lot more to work with than Bird has. Dumars boneheaded decison was going darko over carmello.

in Birds 3 years he has got this team headed in a positive direction. given dumars 8 years to Birds 3, i dont know if its really fair to compare.. hence the reason i stated get back to me in 5 years to kstat.. thats not trash talk its just giving Bird a chance to leave his mark on the franchise. 5 years is a minimum we should give to Bird to get this turned around, and it looks like he is right on schedule to do it.

within two seasons this team will be winning 50 for the next 5-10 years. i have serious doubts dumars will be able to accomplish the same.

* i presented some facts or whatnot to you aaronb, i have yet to hear you state what it is you disapprove of with Bird. please read the points i made a few messages below to you. going from discussing Bird, to Dumars is overlooking the comments i made to you below. would like to know what it is that makes you believe a better gm could have done much better with the roster available when LEGEND was promoted to head of basketball ops.

Kstat
01-25-2011, 08:24 PM
Dumars has been in charge since 2001. They were basically the same team cleveland is now, with no young players, no cap room and only 1 veteran worth anything. He built a championship team out of that garbage inside of 4 years.

Telling me my team will suck forever while yours is destined for greatness is trash talk. Sorry, but you can't see the future.

purdue101
01-25-2011, 08:30 PM
As per Dumars, when the team is sold and he's actually allowed freedom to make some deals, I have confidence he will get this team back.

Dumars won a ring, so no matter what, his tenure is a success.

I do cringe everytime I see what BG, CV, Rip, & Maxiell are owed over the next 3-4 years though. That is a huge hurdle to overcome. Their position somewhat reminds me of Indy a few years back. Cash strapped with a few nice young pieces (Monroe, Stuckey).

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Dumars has been in charge since 2001. They were basically the same team cleveland is now, with no young players, no cap room and only 1 veteran worth anything.

Telling me my team will suck forever while yours is destined for greatness is trash talk. Sorry, but you can't see the future.

and i applaud dumars for being able to acquire billups, rip, sheed, tayshaun, wallace. passing on melo was a big mistake, but no need to harp on something you already know.

i cannot recall the pistons being relevant since 06, which i believe was the last time they played in the ECF's. again, pistons are an irrelevant team to me except that i really dislike the franchise.

i do not recall saying your team will suck, just sayin the pacers will win 50 sooner and longer.

McKeyFan
01-25-2011, 08:43 PM
Hey Kstat.

What would have happened if Detroit picked Melo? Your guess.

Kstat
01-25-2011, 09:05 PM
i cannot recall the pistons being relevant since 06, which i believe was the last time they played in the ECF's. again, pistons are an irrelevant team to me except that i really dislike the franchise.


the Pistons were in the ECF in 07 and 08. Again, at least have some idea of my team if you're going to tell me how bad they are.

If you dislike the franchise, and admit to not following them, perhaps you should stop talking about them like you know much about them...

PacersPride
01-25-2011, 09:24 PM
the Pistons were in the ECF in 07 and 08. Again, at least have some idea of my team if you're going to tell me how bad they are.

If you dislike the franchise, and admit to not following them, perhaps you should stop talking about them like you know much about them...

thats my preference. intrigued by the question as well below by mckeyfan, about if the pistons had selected melo.?

i will say as a pacers fan im glad the pistons did not select him.

rm1369
01-25-2011, 10:21 PM
Enlighten me with your list of Birds decisions that you do not approve of. and let me know how Bird couldve handled it any differently with the team he inherited in 07.

which consisted of: Tins, Dun, Murph, JO, Granger, and not much of anything else.

was Bird to go out and make trades with these super assets? His only option to improve this team was via the draft and letting the contracts expire or else get taken in a trade (which Bird has not allowed to this point). All Birds trades he has came out ahead or at best even.

1) JO trade was good
2) Rush, McBob, Jack for Bayless, Diagou, was even
3) Murphy for DC was significantly to our advantage.

his drafts have been Rush, Hibbert, Hansbrough, George. with some good 2nd rounders in Price and possibly stephenson.

Your statement was Birds mistakes have outweighed his hits.. please elaborate.

I dont consider every move Bird has made as a hit or miss. For example, his extremely conservative drafting and philosophy I consider a negative, so I have a hard time considering the role players he has found in the first round using this approach as "hits". For a GM that has nailed every draft, according to your assesment, we sure have a lack of talent.

Trading JO was a decent move that was painfully obvious and should have been done years ago when he had some value. I dont consider that a feather in Birds cap - he just didnt screw it up.

Overall I consider the last three years to be hugely negative however you want me to measure it. Basically after years of sucking we have some young role players and some cap space. That is not exactly going to get you in the running for executive of the year - especially considering the cap space is not a result of anything other than standing pat.

Here are the moves I consider either positive or negative:

Negatives -

* Hiring JOB, supporting JOB, and especially extending JOB. I cannot overstate how big a negative this is. IMO JOB is teaching any young players Bird does bring in bad basketball. The teams overall shot selection is horrid. Besides any long term affects his coaching may have on the players, he is a PR nightmare for a team that can hardly afford one. A large portion of the fan base hates him and his negative comments to the media about the players. I dont believe a coach should be extremly soft on the players. If someone is dogging it and you havent been able to reach them, then some needling through the media is warranted. But that is not what JOB does. He is criticizing guys that by all accounts are busting their *** to get better? What good comes from that for the player, the fans or the team? Who did "Josh is irrelevant" help? What good has he done Hibbert? There is nothing Larry has done that out weighs the negative that is JOB IMO.

* Passing on Jrue Holiday for Hans. I'd add Passing on Rondo for Williams, but its outside your time frame - even though everyone knows it was Bird. Hans is an example of Bird taking the "NBA ready" player over the best player available. I know many disagree and this is one we will have to let play out, but IMO Hans is a backup 4. He will not be a statring quality PF - again this is obviously my opinion. I believe Jrue will be a top 10 starting PG. This decision is the reason I will not give Bird glowing reviews for acquiring DC. All the trade did was acquire an, IMO, inferior player to the one Bird passed on to secure our long term backup 4 (even though we already had a cheap one in McBob). DC will always be a defensive liability. His size is going to consistantly be exploited by the larger breed of PG that we are seeing. Jrue will be a superior defender and player.

* Signing DJ. It's admittedly not a huge issue, but when the common belief is that we hold on to JOB because of money, signing a role player that doesn't match your coach's philosophy doesn't seem smart. Considering he doesnt even dress, I dont know how this could be anything but a miss for a frachise losing money.

* Extending Foster. This will be another unpopular one, but Foster should not have been extended - he should have been traded when he had value as a player and had an expiring contract. When your frachise is facing such dire circumstances (as you've described) you have to maximize your assests. Bird failed to do that with Foster. And while he has been as helpful this year as a role player can be on a sub .500 team, I seriously doubt anyone can argue we've got our money's worth from that extension. Remember every nickle counts for the franchise at the moment. Worse than the money is that I believe we could have received a mid to late first round pick for Foster. Now before you down play the value of that potential pick, remember that you want me to call Bird a genious for getting the 17th pick and drafting Hibbert. That pick could have brought in another role player (Bird seems fond of them) or have been used to move up in the draft.

* Not demanding a commitment to the young players and rebuilding. Allowing JOB to play short term mediocre veterans over the younger players has done nothing for this franchise. The late season runs on the backs of short term players has kept us for drafting any real difference makers. The desire to "win now", even when it is obvious the team lacked talent, has guarenteed the team will remain mediocre. That is my biggest complaint besides JOB - that we have sucked for years and all we have done is add a bunch of potential role players.


Positives -

* drafting PG

* maintaining cap space (other than a little wasted with DJ)

* drafting AJ (although its barely a positive considering JOB's use of him)

D-BONE
01-25-2011, 10:44 PM
I dont consider every move Bird has made as a hit or miss. For example, his extremely conservative drafting and philosophy I consider a negative, so I have a hard time considering the role players he has found in the first round using this approach as "hits". For a GM that has nailed every draft, according to your assesment, we sure have a lack of talent.

Trading JO was a decent move that was painfully obvious and should have been done years ago when he had some value. I dont consider that a feather in Birds cap - he just didnt screw it up.

Overall I consider the last three years to be hugely negative however you want me to measure it. Basically after years of sucking we have some young role players and some cap space. That is not exactly going to get you in the running for executive of the year - especially considering the cap space is not a result of anything other than standing pat.

Here are the moves I consider either positive or negative:

Negatives -

* Hiring JOB, supporting JOB, and especially extending JOB. I cannot overstate how big a negative this is. IMO JOB is teaching any young players Bird does bring in bad basketball. The teams overall shot selection is horrid. Besides any long term affects his coaching may have on the players, he is a PR nightmare for a team that can hardly afford one. A large portion of the fan base hates him and his negative comments to the media about the players. I dont believe a coach should be extremly soft on the players. If someone is dogging it and you havent been able to reach them, then some needling through the media is warranted. But that is not what JOB does. He is criticizing guys that by all accounts are busting their *** to get better? What good comes from that for the player, the fans or the team? Who did "Josh is irrelevant" help? What good has he done Hibbert? There is nothing Larry has done that out weighs the negative that is JOB IMO.

* Passing on Jrue Holiday for Hans. I'd add Passing on Rondo for Williams, but its outside your time frame - even though everyone knows it was Bird. Hans is an example of Bird taking the "NBA ready" player over the best player available. I know many disagree and this is one we will have to let play out, but IMO Hans is a backup 4. He will not be a statring quality PF - again this is obviously my opinion. I believe Jrue will be a top 10 starting PG. This decision is the reason I will not give Bird glowing reviews for acquiring DC. All the trade did was acquire an, IMO, inferior player to the one Bird passed on to secure our long term backup 4 (even though we already had a cheap one in McBob). DC will always be a defensive liability. His size is going to consistantly be exploited by the larger breed of PG that we are seeing. Jrue will be a superior defender and player.

* Signing DJ. It's admittedly not a huge issue, but when the common belief is that we hold on to JOB because of money, signing a role player that doesn't match your coach's philosophy doesn't seem smart. Considering he doesnt even dress, I dont know how this could be anything but a miss for a frachise losing money.

* Extending Foster. This will be another unpopular one, but Foster should not have been extended - he should have been traded when he had value as a player and had an expiring contract. When your frachise is facing such dire circumstances (as you've described) you have to maximize your assests. Bird failed to do that with Foster. And while he has been as helpful this year as a role player can be on a sub .500 team, I seriously doubt anyone can argue we've got our money's worth from that extension. Remember every nickle counts for the franchise at the moment. Worse than the money is that I believe we could have received a mid to late first round pick for Foster. Now before you down play the value of that potential pick, remember that you want me to call Bird a genious for getting the 17th pick and drafting Hibbert. That pick could have brought in another role player (Bird seems fond of them) or have been used to move up in the draft.

* Not demanding a commitment to the young players and rebuilding. Allowing JOB to play short term mediocre veterans over the younger players has done nothing for this franchise. The late season runs on the backs of short term players has kept us for drafting any real difference makers. The desire to "win now", even when it is obvious the team lacked talent, has guarenteed the team will remain mediocre. That is my biggest complaint besides JOB - that we have sucked for years and all we have done is add a bunch of potential role players.


Positives -

* drafting PG

* maintaining cap space (other than a little wasted with DJ)

* drafting AJ (although its barely a positive considering JOB's use of him)

Those first three negatives are hard to argue against IMO. With regard to JOB, for me it's not hiring him in the first place, but the extension.

On the other hand, I think the JO, Bayless, and Murphy deals were decent given the circumstances, even if you are of the opinion that Bird had some hand in creating those circumstances.

Personally, his record will ultimately be made or broken based on what player moves transpire between now through the offseason.

d_c
01-25-2011, 10:49 PM
Those first three negatives are hard to argue against IMO. With regard to JOB, for me it's not hiring him in the first place, but the extension. .

FTR, JOB was never extended. The team had the OPTION to pick up the 4th season of his contract and Bird did that before his 3rd year started.

PacersPride
01-26-2011, 12:09 AM
[QUOTE]Negatives -

* Hiring JOB, supporting JOB, and especially extending JOB. I cannot overstate how big a negative this is. IMO JOB is teaching any young players Bird does bring in bad basketball. The teams overall shot selection is horrid. Besides any long term affects his coaching may have on the players, he is a PR nightmare for a team that can hardly afford one. A large portion of the fan base hates him and his negative comments to the media about the players. I dont believe a coach should be extremly soft on the players. If someone is dogging it and you havent been able to reach them, then some needling through the media is warranted. But that is not what JOB does. He is criticizing guys that by all accounts are busting their *** to get better? What good comes from that for the player, the fans or the team? Who did "Josh is irrelevant" help? What good has he done Hibbert? There is nothing Larry has done that out weighs the negative that is JOB IMO.


to keep it simple, Bird wanted to hire SVG, he rejected in order to coach Howard. Not many coaches wanted to come to Indiana with the roster Bird inherited.. keep that in consideration.






* Passing on Jrue Holiday for Hans. I'd add Passing on Rondo for Williams, but its outside your time frame - even though everyone knows it was Bird. Hans is an example of Bird taking the "NBA ready" player over the best player available. I know many disagree and this is one we will have to let play out, but IMO Hans is a backup 4. He will not be a statring quality PF - again this is obviously my opinion. I believe Jrue will be a top 10 starting PG. This decision is the reason I will not give Bird glowing reviews for acquiring DC. All the trade did was acquire an, IMO, inferior player to the one Bird passed on to secure our long term backup 4 (even though we already had a cheap one in McBob). DC will always be a defensive liability. His size is going to consistantly be exploited by the larger breed of PG that we are seeing. Jrue will be a superior defender and player.

The nba draft is never a certainty. Rondo, if he would have been drafted here might not be the same player he is today. Hell, if Tinsley had been drafted to the celts he might be a future HOF'er..

regarding the holiday pick, hindsight is 20/20; many Gms' miss draft picks. Bird went the safe route and so on. what if.. Hansbrough averages 15 and 8 as a starting PF and gives you defense as well? maybe Jrue will become a top 10 pg, but im content with DC and Hansbrough. Hansbrough will be a solid starter in this league for five or more seasons.



* Signing DJ. It's admittedly not a huge issue, but when the common belief is that we hold on to JOB because of money, signing a role player that doesn't match your coach's philosophy doesn't seem smart. Considering he doesnt even dress, I dont know how this could be anything but a miss for a frachise losing money.

* Extending Foster. This will be another unpopular one, but Foster should not have been extended - he should have been traded when he had value as a player and had an expiring contract. When your frachise is facing such dire circumstances (as you've described) you have to maximize your assests. Bird failed to do that with Foster. And while he has been as helpful this year as a role player can be on a sub .500 team, I seriously doubt anyone can argue we've got our money's worth from that extension. Remember every nickle counts for the franchise at the moment. Worse than the money is that I believe we could have received a mid to late first round pick for Foster. Now before you down play the value of that potential pick, remember that you want me to call Bird a genious for getting the 17th pick and drafting Hibbert. That pick could have brought in another role player (Bird seems fond of them) or have been used to move up in the draft.

I disagree with Foster, he coulda been signed for less, but i am glad he has not been traded. sorry, but im a big foster fan and hope he retires here at a reasonable salary.



* Not demanding a commitment to the young players and rebuilding. Allowing JOB to play short term mediocre veterans over the younger players has done nothing for this franchise. The late season runs on the backs of short term players has kept us for drafting any real difference makers. The desire to "win now", even when it is obvious the team lacked talent, has guarenteed the team will remain mediocre. That is my biggest complaint besides JOB - that we have sucked for years and all we have done is add a bunch of potential role players.


Positives -

* drafting PG

* maintaining cap space (other than a little wasted with DJ)

* drafting AJ (although its barely a positive considering JOB's use of him)

I like Bird because he has been a winner at every level, HS, College, NBA, Coach, and will be as a GM. Its more than just being a Bird fan during his days with the Celts. He is from Indiana, and I believe he sincerely wants this franchise to do well, its more than just a paycheck for Bird. He wants the pacers to be the best. I trust Bird more due to that reason alone and the fact he has basketball pedigree. He might not excel in every area, but give the man a chance, he has been fully in charge for 3 seasons, he is aware of the financial restrictions the pacers are up against as a small market team.

He is not going to go out and overpay players or sign them to contracts that could become hindering. Every trade he has made thus far has been to the pacers benefit. The reason, he is not gonna get taken, too stubborn for that i believe.

It may not be the overnight recovery like many want. Birds approach is slow and steady and continue to build, which will garnish longer lasting success.

If Obrien is here next year though, I will reconsider my support of Bird.

rm1369
01-26-2011, 06:43 AM
FTR, JOB was never extended. The team had the OPTION to pick up the 4th season of his contract and Bird did that before his 3rd year started.

Obviously you are correct - it was an option and not an extension. IMO it does not make a difference. Bird not only has not fired JOB, he actively moved to keep him for another year.

Roaming Gnome
01-26-2011, 07:31 AM
and i applaud dumars for being able to acquire billups, rip, sheed, tayshaun, wallace. passing on melo was a big mistake, but no need to harp on something you already know.

i cannot recall the pistons being relevant since 06, which i believe was the last time they played in the ECF's. again, pistons are an irrelevant team to me except that i really dislike the franchise.

i do not recall saying your team will suck, just sayin the pacers will win 50 sooner and longer.
Just put your Blue & Gold glasses down and stop already...

Your argument is rather foolish and doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering they've won more division titles, played in more ECF's & won a ring in that stretch then this franchise has won in its NBA tenure.

Yeah, they drafted Darko... The Blazers drafted both Sam Bowie and Greg Oden. Whoopty doo... Bad drafts happen for most GM's.

Why am I even horsing around with someone that just professed that the NBA draft lottery is rigged....

Carry on!

PacersPride
01-26-2011, 09:17 AM
Obviously you are correct - it was an option and not an extension. IMO it does not make a difference. Bird not only has not fired JOB, he actively moved to keep him for another year.

Prior to the DC trade in August, the pacers projected starting lineup was:

Earl Watson
Rush or Dunleavy
Granger
Murphy
Hibbert

not much reason for a coach to want to come here, just like it was when SVG rejected the job.

PacersPride
01-26-2011, 09:38 AM
Just put your Blue & Gold glasses down and stop already...

Your argument is rather foolish and doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering they've won more division titles, played in more ECF's & won a ring in that stretch then this franchise has won in its NBA tenure.

Yeah, they drafted Darko... The Blazers drafted both Sam Bowie and Greg Oden. Whoopty doo... Bad drafts happen for most GM's.

Why am I even horsing around with someone that just professed that the NBA draft lottery is rigged....

Carry on!

The last 3 seasons Bird has done a better job than Dumars, which was the original issue in play. in regard to the darko over melo selection, that was a boneheaded decision. Comparing it to Bowie or Oden is not justified, Oden had injuries, Bowie flat out sucked and today GMs do a much better job of researching prospects.

chi-town had about a 2% chance of winning the lottery and being able to select Rose.. so ya, a part of me thinks it is manipulated. The first year the lottery was put in place, the knicks won it over the pacers and were able to select Ewing.. its a little questionable at times whether the lottery is truly an effective way at pre-determining draft picks.

Roaming Gnome
01-26-2011, 10:18 AM
The last 3 seasons Bird has done a better job than Dumars, which was the original issue in play. in regard to the darko over melo selection, that was a boneheaded decision. Comparing it to Bowie or Oden is not justified, Oden had injuries, Bowie flat out sucked and today GMs do a much better job of researching prospects.

chi-town had about a 2% chance of winning the lottery and being able to select Rose.. so ya, a part of me thinks it is manipulated. The first year the lottery was put in place, the knicks won it over the pacers and were able to select Ewing.. its a little questionable at times whether the lottery is truly an effective way at pre-determining draft picks.

We can agree about the effectiveness of the lottery, but to go as far as it being rigged or even manipulated rings kind of hollow considering the amazing luck that teams like the Spurs and Magic have had with it. Really, the biggest scenario that works against an argument of it being rigged is San Antonio ending up with Tim Duncan when "Big Market" Boston was all but assured to land him via statistics. If I remember right, Boston ended up well outside of where they thought they were gonna land! As far as what you say about Chi having about a 2% chance... What were the odds that Orlando having 1 of 66 balls in a hopper come up right after getting Shaq the year prior? Orlando in the early 90's was FAR from a major media market.

Ummm Sam Bowie didn't suck at Kentucky. Really, Bowie was the consensus choice after Olajwaon. Other than having a great close to his college career at North Carolina, Jordan really didn't blossom until going into the later portion of his final year for the Tar Heels. Bowie failed like Oden due to injuries, not for a lack of skill. Speaking of Oden... What team won the lottery to draft him? I don't think they had the largest chance to land him. Moving on...

As for the last 3 years.... I'm not sold that Bird has done a better job because we haven't had a chance to go the free agent route. Joe managed to shed salary & went to the free agent slot machine and ended up with Ben Gordon and Charlie V. Yeah, not the greatest, but beware as Larry is about to step up to the same slot machine if the trade deadline passes without any action by the Pacers. Anywho, what does the last 3 years amount to when Dumars amassed multiple division titles, ECF appearences and a ring at his own hand. Remember, Detroit had NOTHING when Dumars took the job other then an injured Grant Hill. You said the only thing that Dumars did was get Sheed.... Well Ben Wallace disagrees with you as he was the anchor to much of Dumars accomplishments. No one knew anything about Big Ben as he sat at the end of Orlando's bench. I guess that is nothing, though.

Yeah, Joe may have sucked in his selection of FA's and maybe the selection of Michael Curry and Kuster as coaches, but he is giving you his trademark smile as he whispers "Scoreboard" in your ear!

By the way, dumping Rick Carlisle for Larry Brown wasn't a bad move either....
Yeah, I know.... nothing in your book!

Future_NBA_Player
01-26-2011, 10:34 AM
the Pistons were in the ECF in 07 and 08. Again, at least have some idea of my team if you're going to tell me how bad they are.

If you dislike the franchise, and admit to not following them, perhaps you should stop talking about them like you know much about them...

The Pistons are your team? Hey ******* this is PACERSDIGEST. If your favorite team isn't the Pacers get the **** off of this website.

Name calling and other kinds of similar behavior isn't welcome here. All NBA fans ARE WELCOME to this board!

Future_NBA_Player
01-26-2011, 10:38 AM
Just put your Blue & Gold glasses down and stop already...

Your argument is rather foolish and doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering they've won more division titles, played in more ECF's & won a ring in that stretch then this franchise has won in its NBA tenure.

Yeah, they drafted Darko... The Blazers drafted both Sam Bowie and Greg Oden. Whoopty doo... Bad drafts happen for most GM's.

Why am I even horsing around with someone that just professed that the NBA draft lottery is rigged....

Carry on!

Greg Oden was a good pick. He would of been a good player, if he wasn't bit by the injury bug. Hey who knows after this knee heals up look out. Look at what happened to Kevin Mchale after his surgeries. He became one of the best big men to ever play the game.

vnzla81
01-26-2011, 10:42 AM
The Pistons are your team? Hey ******* this is PACERSDIGEST. If your favorite team isn't the Pacers get the **** off of this website.

He is a good poster no reason for him to leave this forum, as hard as it sounds sometimes people need another point of view.

DaveP63
01-26-2011, 10:59 AM
Let's see what happens on or about February 24th, shall we? Then we'll know what were doing with the expirings and the cap room.

Gamble1
01-26-2011, 02:29 PM
I dont consider every move Bird has made as a hit or miss. For example, his extremely conservative drafting and philosophy I consider a negative, so I have a hard time considering the role players he has found in the first round using this approach as "hits". For a GM that has nailed every draft, according to your assesment, we sure have a lack of talent.

* Not demanding a commitment to the young players and rebuilding. Allowing JOB to play short term mediocre veterans over the younger players has done nothing for this franchise. The late season runs on the backs of short term players has kept us for drafting any real difference makers. The desire to "win now", even when it is obvious the team lacked talent, has guarenteed the team will remain mediocre. That is my biggest complaint besides JOB - that we have sucked for years and all we have done is add a bunch of potential role players.

I think you wrongly assume that Bird has no boss and his master plan was to garnish mid-teen picks and toilet bowl this team with players like Tins,Jax, Artest. This is the very reason why we are dealing with cap issues and why no establish coach would have come here in the first place.

If you want to act like Bird is the owner of this team then fine but I think it is very near sighted of anyone to think that he wouldn't have done things differently from the get go if he had a longer leash. When you have a boss you tend to go with his wants and desire more so then your own.

aaronb
01-26-2011, 02:47 PM
I think you wrongly assume that Bird has no boss and his master plan was to garnish mid-teen picks and toilet bowl this team with players like Tins,Jax, Artest. This is the very reason why we are dealing with cap issues and why no establish coach would have come here in the first place.

If you want to act like Bird is the owner of this team then fine but I think it is very near sighted of anyone to think that he wouldn't have done things differently from the get go if he had a longer leash. When you have a boss you tend to go with his wants and desire more so then your own.



So does the dude ever become accountable for anything? He's been here since 2003. Yet it's always someone else who has hindered the Bird franchise building magic?


Maybe he just isn't a good front office guy? It's a different skill set than being a player. Really no shame in him failing at it.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 03:14 PM
So does the dude ever become accountable for anything? He's been here since 2003. Yet it's always someone else who has hindered the Bird franchise building magic?


Maybe he just isn't a good front office guy? It's a different skill set than being a player. Really no shame in him failing at it.

We've been through this. Anything from 2003 to June of '08 is at least as much Donnie Walsh's fault, so those are muddy waters to try to peer through.

Bird is completely responsible since June of 2008. The trades/draft picks since that 2008 draft are on Larry Bird.

If you want to go move-by-move and criticize everything since that night, go right ahead.

aaronb
01-26-2011, 03:25 PM
We've been through this. Anything from 2003 to June of '08 is at least as much Donnie Walsh's fault, so those are muddy waters to try to peer through.

Bird is completely responsible since June of 2008. The trades/draft picks since that 2008 draft are on Larry Bird.

If you want to go move-by-move and criticize everything since that night, go right ahead.

I can accept that. What I was objecting to is that now its ownership who is to blame for 7 years of bad basketball.

Bird has been employed here since 2003. He deserves as much or more blame than anyone for the current state of Pacers basketball. JOB,Walsh,Simon,Kravitz, Jay Cutler, Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Isiah Thomas, The "where's the beef" Lady all included.

Gamble1
01-26-2011, 03:32 PM
So does the dude ever become accountable for anything? He's been here since 2003. Yet it's always someone else who has hindered the Bird franchise building magic?


Maybe he just isn't a good front office guy? It's a different skill set than being a player. Really no shame in him failing at it.
Surely Bird has made mistakes but its almost insulting to think that one of us would have done a much better job given the moment. I am sure all of us would have drafted Holiday, Rondo, etc with our first pick and then traded up in the second round in previous drafts to take Monta Ellis, Micheal Redd, Rashard Lewis, Ginoblli, Boozer, Arenas and Okur. Ridiculous I know but thats how many of us are acting.

Some of this boils down to the franchise had to make some hard moves do to boneheads on the team. THe owner in my mind clearly doesn't prescribe to tanking and so what are you to do as a fan? Blame everyone except the real man in charge.

ITs easy to look smart in your own eyes especially when you make a bizzillion trades and mock draft picks. We all can say we like 10 players for one draft choice and maybe 2 or 3 of them pan out to which we point to why we are the geniuses and Birds the idiot. Sorry if I am just not buying it..

Hicks
01-26-2011, 03:38 PM
I can accept that. What I was objecting to is that now its ownership who is to blame for 7 years of bad basketball.

Bird has been employed here since 2003. He deserves as much or more blame than anyone for the current state of Pacers basketball. JOB,Walsh,Simon,Kravitz, Jay Cutler, Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Isiah Thomas, The "where's the beef" Lady all included.

You just said you can accept that, but then you go back on it in the same post!

Look, as of 2008, this was going to be a challenge to transform the situation from bad to good. Whether or not Larry succeeded will finally be answered 'soon'. It starts with this summer, and ends with the product on the floor around this time next year (and we'll probably know sooner, assuming we're not in a lockout).

If we're still in this rut next season, Larry Bird officially failed.

aaronb
01-26-2011, 03:47 PM
You just said you can accept that, but then you go back on it in the same post!




I can accept that line of reasoning. Though I personally don't 100% agree with it.

I just can't see someone like Larry Bird taking the GM title. Then not having any input on the roster for 5+ years? Maybe Walsh or Carlisle deserve some part of that 5 year blame. But Larry Bird shouldn't be totally absolved either.

He didn't just show up with a job to do in August of 2008.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 03:48 PM
Did I say he didn't have any input? No. I'm saying ultimately he wasn't the boss, Donnie Walsh was. He takes part in the blame for 2003-2008, but ultimately that falls on the boss, Donnie Walsh (or the Simons if you want to put it that way; but Walsh was the head basketball guy).

Gamble1
01-26-2011, 04:03 PM
I can accept that. What I was objecting to is that now its ownership who is to blame for 7 years of bad basketball.

Bird has been employed here since 2003. He deserves as much or more blame than anyone for the current state of Pacers basketball. JOB,Walsh,Simon,Kravitz, Jay Cutler, Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Isiah Thomas, The "where's the beef" Lady all included.
You do realize it hasn't been 7 years of bad basketball right? It may feel like it but it hasn't been.

Your acting like it was Larry Bird threw the beer at Ron Artest and not Jon Green.

The Rocker
01-26-2011, 04:04 PM
Haters gonna hate

aaronb
01-26-2011, 04:49 PM
You do realize it hasn't been 7 years of bad basketball right?


It's been 6 since we've been above 500. We were 44-38 in the 7th season.


Either way, its still far too long for a team to remain bad. Especially a team that STILL doesn't have a franchise player, or is anywhere close to being turned around.

We still need to find another 6 rotation level guys, 2 guys better than anyone we currently have AND a new coach before we are considered any kind of contender.

Maybe it all happens this summer? Odds can't be real high though?

PacersPride
01-26-2011, 04:52 PM
I can accept that line of reasoning. Though I personally don't 100% agree with it.

I just can't see someone like Larry Bird taking the GM title. Then not having any input on the roster for 5+ years? Maybe Walsh or Carlisle deserve some part of that 5 year blame. But Larry Bird shouldn't be totally absolved either.

He didn't just show up with a job to do in August of 2008.

Walsh hired Bird in 03 likley thinking that Bird would get 2-3 seasons under his belt as a GM, then take over. Walsh was still in charge im certain at least initially. The pacers were stacked and not much was required of Walsh/Bird; then the brawl and so on.. immediately changes needed to be made with bad characters, and bottom line was it was not working because there was no accountability.

I cannot presume Walsh and his 20+ years here handed the reigns over as soon as Legend walked through the door.

nvrtheless im sure that doesnt change your opinion whatsoever. but i would enjoy reading your list of mistakes Bird has made since taking complete control in 08. get into all the errors made during walsh/bird era at some later time.. right now Bird is in charge, so please evaluate his performance as GM and make it know what you are not in approval of.?

Roaming Gnome
01-26-2011, 04:58 PM
I cannot presume Walsh and his 20+ years here handed the reigns over as soon as Legend walked through the door.

Pretty much... If you want to condemn Bird over anything... Make sure it isn't the "schit sandwich" that he inherited. For all practical purposes, until Donnie left the building... The buck ultimately stopped with him!

rm1369
01-26-2011, 05:50 PM
Pretty much... If you want to condemn Bird over anything... Make sure it isn't the "schit sandwich" that he inherited. For all practical purposes, until Donnie left the building... The buck ultimately stopped with him!

I provided my list of complaints about Bird since he unquestionably has been in control, but I'm being told it's either hindsight or it's the owners fault. There are people screaming about JOB, but somehow wont hold Bird accountable for even that. I understand - Larry is a local hero and some people will not criticize him regardless of what happens.

ilive4sports
01-26-2011, 06:02 PM
I provided my list of complaints about Bird since he unquestionably has been in control, but I'm being told it's either hindsight or it's the owners fault. There are people screaming about JOB, but somehow wont hold Bird accountable for even that. I understand - Larry is a local hero and some people will not criticize him regardless of what happens.

I'm not an Indiana native, Larry Bird to me is just a HOF player who coached the Pacers and now is in charge of the FO. Since he took over in 2008 Larry has certainly done more good than bad. The thing is looking at the product right now isn't a fair judgement of what he has done. And I'm not saying that because of JOB being coach. I'm saying that because most of the players he has brought in are still developing. Roy Hibbert, Paul George, Tyler Hansbrough, Brandon Rush, Darren Collison and hell I will even say JMac, still have a ton of room for improvement. We all agree with that don't we?

I see aaronb saying we need 2 players that are better than anyone we have and 6 more role players. I think the young guys can certainly grow into those roles. I think PG will be a stud in this league. He screams Tracy McGrady to me. A one two punch with him and Granger will be nothing short of great. Surround them with a center like Hibbert can be, a point guard that Darren Collison can be and role players like Hansbough, Rush and JMac and thats a pretty good team that will contend. I haven't seen anything to say these players won't develop into their potential except maybe Rush (who will do much better off the bench and under a different coach that defines his role on the team).

And on top of that we have a ton of cap room to add FA's and a draft pick. Larry has a three year plan and it includes this offseason. How about we judge then whether we have failed or not. The picture will be much clearer. Players will be more developed. Hopefully we get a new coach that can really get this team to what it can be. That picture of our core that was posted a day or two ago has me excited honestly. Thats why it's my background. I like this core quite a bit. I think it has great potential. And we are still adding to it. Thats what I think people are forgetting here.

PacersPride
01-26-2011, 06:13 PM
I provided my list of complaints about Bird since he unquestionably has been in control, but I'm being told it's either hindsight or it's the owners fault. There are people screaming about JOB, but somehow wont hold Bird accountable for even that. I understand - Larry is a local hero and some people will not criticize him regardless of what happens.

Your list of complaints against Bird are weak (no offense): below i have summarized.

1) JOB
2) Holliday
3) DJ
4) Foster
5) committment to young players

1) As mentioned previously, Bird wanted SVG, when coaches reject your team that says quite a bit. Up until the DC trade, this team had very little to attract an established coach. How is that Birds fault in 08?

2) Holliday, this one has merit b/c obviously Holliday has played well.. but the draft is nvr a certainty and GMs miss often. Who is the player for MINN drafted 5th overall and we were discussing making a trade with this past offseason, Holliday is probably more talented than that guy who was drafted 5th. GMs missed on Granger and we were lucky to get him at 17.

Dumars missed on Darko over Melo.. that is one I would be upset about, not Hansbrough over Holliday, when Hansbrough will be a solid PF starter in this league average 15/8 w/ tough D.

3) DJ is such a low cost sign that this doesnt even register on my radar as something worthy of being discussed. Now the decision on whether to resign Jarret Jack is worthy of discussing. Bird chose to take two players over one it looks like, and I still feel DJ can be a good role player for us off the bench, after this season when Dun/Rush may no longer be around.

4) Foster is overpaid only b/c of injuries. I hope we resign him but it wont be at the same salary he currently has.

5) committment to what young players in the beginning when Bird took over. Rush/Hibbert were his first players drafted, they got the time needed in year 1 and 2, Hansbrough was hurt last year, and George is now getting PT as well.

I think what you may be referring too is the Pacers tanking. This couldve been Simons call for all we know. The Holliday issue is the only one I can really see as a mistake, but not a costly one since we acquired DC.

Now the good moves that you will not even give credit to Bird on:

like the JO trade, DC trade, not getting taken on any trades and remaining patient, when other GM's may have sacrificed the future to turn this franchise around overnight and it would have been a big mistake. Could have cost us a player like Paul George if we had made a deal sooner.

All in all, its not that Bird has done amazing, but considering what he had to work with in 08, and where the team is now 3 years later, i approve of his performance. its been a rough strectch no doubt, but at least this team and fanbase has hope this coming offseason that with a new coach, maybe a trade, and a FA signing that we can win 50 games again in the not too distant horizon.

And it will likely continue when we have young players like DC, PG24, Granger, Hibbert, Hansbrough, Price. A new coach, sign a FA, add another player in the draft, and maybe take advantage of a team over the cap along with additional experience and I see no reason this team will not be winning 50 games for the next 5 seasons.

If that doesnt happen, then I will want Bird to resign.

BringJackBack
01-26-2011, 06:13 PM
I provided my list of complaints about Bird since he unquestionably has been in control, but I'm being told it's either hindsight or it's the owners fault. There are people screaming about JOB, but somehow wont hold Bird accountable for even that. I understand - Larry is a local hero and some people will not criticize him regardless of what happens.

Are you saying that people haven't put blame on Bird for not taking care of JOB? Where have you been?

One thing that I will give you, however, is the Hansbrough pick. Hansbrough is solid, and Jrue may be a very, very good player one day. I love Hansbrough, but at this point I'd trade him for Jrue without question. Is that a blemish on Bird? Probably, but bottom line every single year GMs miss out on guys that they should have picked.

Sookie
01-26-2011, 06:21 PM
Are you saying that people haven't put blame on Bird for not taking care of JOB? Where have you been?

One thing that I will give you, however, is the Hansbrough pick. Hansbrough is solid, and Jrue may be a very, very good player one day. I love Hansbrough, but at this point I'd trade him for Jrue without question. Is that a blemish on Bird? Probably, but bottom line every single year GMs miss out on guys that they should have picked.

But you probably don't get Collison and Price if you take Jrue.

So swap Hansbrough for Jrue..okay..Swap Collison, Price, Hansbrough..and the possibility that Troy is still on the team for Jrue?

As said, all GM's make mistakes (MJ at third?) but Larry, to me, has done a good job even fixing them, and his "mistakes" (other than JOB) aren't that big of a deal. Hansbrough clearly IS at least a solid player in the NBA.

BringJackBack
01-26-2011, 06:23 PM
But you probably don't get Collison and Price if you take Jrue.

So swap Hansbrough for Jrue..okay..Swap Collison, Price, Hansbrough..and the possibility that Troy is still on the team for Jrue?

As said, all GM's make mistakes (MJ at third?) but Larry, to me, has done a good job even fixing them, and his "mistakes" (other than JOB) aren't that big of a deal. Hansbrough clearly IS at least a solid player in the NBA.

Thank you. I was too lazy to put the Price/Collison part into play. We could very well be stuck with Troy right now, and that just made me puke a little bit in my mouth.

PacersPride
01-26-2011, 06:51 PM
But you probably don't get Collison and Price if you take Jrue.

So swap Hansbrough for Jrue..okay..Swap Collison, Price, Hansbrough..and the possibility that Troy is still on the team for Jrue?

As said, all GM's make mistakes (MJ at third?) but Larry, to me, has done a good job even fixing them, and his "mistakes" (other than JOB) aren't that big of a deal. Hansbrough clearly IS at least a solid player in the NBA.

i overlooked this but Ty Lawson was the player I believe the "experts" were projecting us to take, it wasnt Jrue.. and im very pleased with DC, and like mentioned above, we ended up with Price, DC, Hansbrough, and removed Murphs albatross contract in the process.

Hence the reasons I stated earlier, hindsight 20/20.. look at thabeet taken #2 overall.. or at this time the fact if we had tanked mighta ended up with Turner over George.. who knows which will be better.. still it proves lottery picks are never a safe bet.

rm1369
01-26-2011, 07:27 PM
But you probably don't get Collison and Price if you take Jrue.

So swap Hansbrough for Jrue..okay..Swap Collison, Price, Hansbrough..and the possibility that Troy is still on the team for Jrue?

As said, all GM's make mistakes (MJ at third?) but Larry, to me, has done a good job even fixing them, and his "mistakes" (other than JOB) aren't that big of a deal. Hansbrough clearly IS at least a solid player in the NBA.

That's a ridiculous argument. Drafting Jrue means you dont have Hans - thats it. You still have the other assets to do what you want. Draft AJ or trade for DC, both are still options. Obviously you wouldnt need both, but you still have the assets to make other moves.

For the record i would trade all three for Jrue. Quality beats quantity in the NBA and I believe Jrue will be a decent amount better than any of those players.

rm1369
01-26-2011, 07:36 PM
i overlooked this but Ty Lawson was the player I believe the "experts" were projecting us to take, it wasnt Jrue.. and im very pleased with DC, and like mentioned above, we ended up with Price, DC, Hansbrough, and removed Murphs albatross contract in the process.

Hence the reasons I stated earlier, hindsight 20/20.. look at thabeet taken #2 overall.. or at this time the fact if we had tanked mighta ended up with Turner over George.. who knows which will be better.. still it proves lottery picks are never a safe bet.

What does it matter who the experts said we would take? That prediction is at least partly based on Birds statements about wanting seasoned college players and his previous draft that was exactly that (Rush and Hibbert). Basicaly the exact thing I am complaining about!

It has nothing to do with hindsight - check my posts, I said it on draft day.

D-BONE
01-26-2011, 08:18 PM
Hell, I'd take Jrue or Lawson over TH or DC. I think both those guys have more upside.

d_c
01-26-2011, 10:00 PM
There are people screaming about JOB, but somehow wont hold Bird accountable for even that. I understand - Larry is a local hero and some people will not criticize him regardless of what happens.

That's what I don't quite understand myself.

For every 50 posts that totally rip JOB, I see maybe 4 or 5 posts that merely slap Bird on the wrist for hiring him (not to mention picking up his option year). Unless I'm mistaken, it wasn't JOB who actually hired himself to the job. It's not his fault for taking the job that was offered to him just like it wasn't Troy Murphy's fault for negotiating a $59M contract when Chris Mullin finally gave in.

When a GM makes a poor draft choice or trade, he gets ripped for it, but the same standard doesn't seem to apply for coaching hires.

PacerGuy
01-26-2011, 10:42 PM
IMO Larry is being ripped by both fans & non-fans, when some of the actions he as been MADE TO DO have likely been the result of a game we don't see or understand: SIMON SAY'S!

-I have heard it on very good authority that Jammal Tinsley was not banished because Larry thought that was the best way to go about trying to move him, but because the shooting @ the hotel downtown also put a bullet in a 2nd floor story window in a Simon owned building. The Simons were supposibly so pi$$ed that they told Larry that he was not to step foot back inside a Pacer facility again - EVER, so that is what Larry did.

-Larry has likely ben told JO'B will be your only coach this year, that he will not given permission to hire anyone else, so Larry must hold his nose & support JO'B & hope it & can work for a few more short months. He may have been told he is allowed to coach himself, but we all know he does not want that. So, knowing there is no one else qualified to step in, what is he to do?

It seems easy to blame Larry for all this (& he definately must own some), but where is the Simon family? Why do I not see any "Open Letters" to them? Where is the Herb we all should be looking for? Does anyone here really think the Herb has said he wants to make a move as he can see/feel public opinion, but Larry is refusing? No! If THEY will not allow him to do what he feels he needs to, or must run as he was/is told, what is he to really do?