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View Full Version : Melo got a chuckle out of the JOB strategy last night



vnzla81
01-24-2011, 01:15 PM
Even Melo is laughing at the clowns strategy to stop him :rolleyes:


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap;_ylt=Auo_RidxV27O.JEN_myXSH68vLYF?gid=201101 2307



DENVER (AP)—Carmelo Anthony(notes) won over the home crowd just before hitting the road.

Anthony gave the fans at the Pepsi Center nothing to boo about Sunday night, scoring 36 points in the Denver Nuggets’ 121-107 victory over the Indiana Pacers, who lost their fifth straight.

Anthony had been subjected to jeers by the home crowd as trade talk intensified last week, but on this night, the Denver fans showed him plenty of love, especially when he was raining 3s from all over the court as he put on a spectacular 23-point show in the third quarter.


Anthony’s career-best six 3-pointers all came in the third period as the Nuggets turned a close game into a laugher—a reversal of their game in November when the Pacers made their first 20 shots of the third quarter and rolled to a 144-113 win in Indianapolis.

“We owed that team and we were looking to pay them back,” Chauncey Billups(notes) said.

“It was embarrassing,” agreed Anthony. “Not just for me, but for the team. So, of course, that motivated me tonight.”

And when he found himself open over and over, he kept putting up 3-pointers and they kept popping the net, going 6 of 8 in all.

“Man, I mean, they just kept leaving me open,” Anthony said. “The 3-ball was falling. I’ve been looking for the 3-ball for about a month and a-half now.”

Consider it located.
Pacers coach Jim O’Brien said he put Paul George(notes) on Anthony in the third quarter because Danny Granger(notes) already had three fouls. And he figured leaving Melo open so far from the basket was a safe bet, never envisioning that it would backfire so spectacularly.


“Not when he’s shooting 25 percent from out there,” O’Brien said. “So, that’s the shot we’re going to give him.”


Anthony got a chuckle out of that strategy.

“I’m a streaky shooter, man,” he said. “I’m a rhythm shooter.”
Anthony, whose previous high was five 3-pointers back in 2003, his rookie season, didn’t look as tight as he had earlier in the week when the trade talk was so rampant.

“I don’t know if it was the trade rumors slowing down (but) he was making a lot of shots,” Tyler Hansbrough(notes) said. “He had some open looks and made the shots. He is Carmelo Anthony and he’s going to make shots.”

Nene added 15 points and 10 rebounds for the Nuggets. Hansbrough had 27 points and 10 rebounds for Indiana.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 01:19 PM
That was thanks to Dunleavy's "Help" Defense

vnzla81
01-24-2011, 01:20 PM
That was thanks to Dunleavy's "Help" Defense

Yeah but according to Jim that was the strategy, no wonder why Danny didn't care to get close to Melo.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 01:22 PM
Yeah but according to Jim that was the strategy, no wonder why Danny didn't care to get close to Melo.

omg wat an idiot i just finished reading it. A safe bet to leave Melo open:laugh::laugh:

:censored: JOB

Since86
01-24-2011, 01:25 PM
Isn't it rather, um, odd the best strategy Jim could come up to defend Melo was to give him open 3s considering that "spacing the floor" by shooting 3s is his best offensive strategy to win?

I don't really care about any of the other crap that Jim brings.

This contradiction right here was why I wasn't happy the day Jim was hired, and was looking forward to the day he would be gone.

It's a stupid, and I do mean stupid, way to coach basketball.

ilive4sports
01-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Honestly thats enough right there for Larry to fire JOB's sorry ***. I don't care what Carmelo Anthony is shooting on the year. Its Carmelo Anthony! He is an elite scorer with the ability to knock down any shot. Some one should have been up in his face all night.

Trader Joe
01-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Do we have a triple face palm?

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 01:36 PM
Yes JOB he shoots 25% out there but Melo is the type of player once he gets going he will make anything especialy if he is un freakin guarded

Trophy
01-24-2011, 01:39 PM
This is freakin' embarrassing.

I'm so sick of this ****.

ilive4sports
01-24-2011, 01:39 PM
Do we have a triple face palm?



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_t_xlGGymR7U/S9icgvzOKXI/AAAAAAAACWY/EillKnKg0gY/s1600/Triple+Face+Palm.jpg

Since86
01-24-2011, 01:48 PM
Yes JOB he shoots 25% out there but Melo is the type of player once he gets going he will make anything especialy if he is un freakin guarded

Yep. Teams just don't let Melo shoot the 3 unguarded, and that's why he shoots that low. They actually GUARD him into that percentage.

This isn't letting Roy Hibbert take uncontested 3s. Atleast get a freaking hand up.

I'll be honest, I didn't watch the game. (Why would I want too?) But I get the overall idea from seeing comments in the game thread, and these wonderful quotes from after the game.

Could it be like the NYC game last year? I said it then, and I still think it's true, that the team gave Jim a "Well if you want it this way, that's what we're going to do" thing and went completely over-the-top. (In my life I've never watched 48mins of basketball where every player on the team was completely doing their own thing like that night. I think there is more of a team effort during all-star games but anyways....)

Could it be possible that Jim told them the strategy, and they just said "Eff it. If that's what he wants....." and put forth zero effort?

xBulletproof
01-24-2011, 01:49 PM
That was thanks to Dunleavy's "Help" Defense

:rolleyes: I swear you'd blame him for anything.

Truth is Dunleavy didn't start the 2nd half and Carmelo had 11 points in the quarter before Dunleavy even got on the court.

Peck
01-24-2011, 01:53 PM
As I said in a thread not to long ago, Jim is exactly the person you want coaching you at black jack. He could stand behind you all night long and go "hit" "stand" "double down" and he would be right more often than he is not.

This is also why people of the numerology religion can not understand why some of us think so lowly of him.

All Jim did was play the %, which is what he does each and every game.

Look he is not an idiot, well for the most part anyway, he knows the numbers probably better than anyone in the NBA. I bet he could go to MIT and be a professor of advanced statistics.

The problem is once things stop making numerical sense he has no answers until he can re-calculate how to solve them. Sadly though this usually ends up with more of the same because that is what the numbers will show him.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 01:54 PM
:rolleyes: I swear you'd blame him for anything.

Truth is Dunleavy didn't start the 2nd half and Carmelo had 11 points in the quarter before Dunleavy even got on the court.

Fact is he was the one saging off but i didnt relize the coach told him to so it isnt his fault. I just cant belive the coach would tell everyone to sag off melo that is unreal. I actually like Mike but not how we use him he should be the back SF that would make a lot of my blame towards him go away.( i relize he has no control over where he plays) But it just pisses me off

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 01:56 PM
So this must have been the stradgy playing Portland also?? Batum was uncontested servral times

LoneGranger33
01-24-2011, 01:56 PM
I think you should call it "Help!" defense for maximum sarcastic effect.

Trophy
01-24-2011, 01:58 PM
This is a completely different team.

We were once a top defensive team in the beginning of the season, but now we are just flat out terrible in all fields.

This is unbelievable.

Since86
01-24-2011, 02:04 PM
So this must have been the stradgy playing Portland also?? Batum was uncontested servral times

I watched the Portland game for the first time this morning. (I hadn't even checked into PD during that time either)

Batum's 3s were crazy. The one in the corner where it put them up 5 (I think) barely touched his hands. He caught the ball chest high, and went straight into his shooting motion. IT was in his hands for less than a second. There were some others where he shot the ball extremely quick.

You can't stop that unless you're face guarding him.

As much as I want it to be Jim's fault, you just have to give credit where credit is due.

Nicholas Batum, you get all the credit for those.

pacer4ever
01-24-2011, 02:09 PM
I watched the Portland game for the first time this morning. (I hadn't even checked into PD during that time either)

Batum's 3s were crazy. The one in the corner where it put them up 5 (I think) barely touched his hands. He caught the ball chest high, and went straight into his shooting motion. IT was in his hands for less than a second. There were some others where he shot the ball extremely quick.

You can't stop that unless you're face guarding him.

As much as I want it to be Jim's fault, you just have to give credit where credit is due.

Nicholas Batum, you get all the credit for those.

Batum was wide open. To me Batum is a knock down 3 pt shooter u have to always have a hand in his face.

Since86
01-24-2011, 02:16 PM
No he wasn't wide open. Rush was in good help side defense position, but due to the fact that Batum caught and shot it all in one motion, there is no way Rush could be expected to rotate over and get a hand in his face.

It isn't phsyically possible.

Like I said, you either face guard Batum, which would have been dumb, or you live with the fact that he hit some really incredible 3s.

Rush is screwed either way. He either gets dumped on for not being in good helpside, or he gets dumped on because Batum hit a good shot.

Good offense will always beat good defense. And just because there is a made basket, doesn't mean there was bad defense.

Rush played good defense, Batum just executed better offense.

There's no reason to hang your head over those shots. You pat him on the back and hope he doesn't continue shooting like that. Unfortunately, he did.

CableKC
01-24-2011, 02:17 PM
As I said in a thread not to long ago, Jim is exactly the person you want coaching you at black jack. He could stand behind you all night long and go "hit" "stand" "double down" and he would be right more often than he is not.

This is also why people of the numerology religion can not understand why some of us think so lowly of him.

All Jim did was play the %, which is what he does each and every game.

Look he is not an idiot, well for the most part anyway, he knows the numbers probably better than anyone in the NBA. I bet he could go to MIT and be a professor of advanced statistics.

The problem is once things stop making numerical sense he has no answers until he can re-calculate how to solve them. Sadly though this usually ends up with more of the same because that is what the numbers will show him.
I was thinking of your very post when JO'B commented on Melo's 3pt shooting percentage.

Maybe J'OB is either a robot...or he should have been a Professional Poker Player instead of Coaching :shrug:

vnzla81
01-24-2011, 02:18 PM
Here is a demonstration in how I feel eveytime I get to watch a Pacers game.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xHKTE75dgE4" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

JB24
01-24-2011, 03:01 PM
http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/01/24/nuggets-play-to-carmelo-anthonys-strengths-against-pacers/

Shade
01-24-2011, 05:04 PM
This is what happens when you have no real perception and rely almost exclusively on stats.

I'll bet Jim is a beast at NBA2K.

Trophy
01-24-2011, 05:07 PM
This is what happens when you have no real perception and rely almost exclusively on stats.

I'll bet Jim is a beast at NBA2K.

He probably has James Posey finishing with like 30 three point attempts.

spazzxb
01-24-2011, 05:21 PM
Here is a demonstration in how I feel eveytime I get to watch a Pacers game.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xHKTE75dgE4" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

fat and exposed? jk

Sookie
01-24-2011, 05:49 PM
you know what, I thought last nights game was on the players. Granger didn't show up, and the defense was pathetic.

In fact, that was the biggest problem, the defense.

Turns out that the pathetic defense was intended..

Also, I like how he decides he's going to play Brandon Rush in extremely limited minutes when Brandon is easily the best guy to guard Melo.

ChristianDudley
01-24-2011, 05:50 PM
WOW, this might be THE "best" quote from Jim O'Brien of all time. Just leave Melo, one of the best shooters in the game, wide open and telling his players to NOT defend him out there, even after reeling off 1, 2, 3, 4, and eventually a 6th 3-pointer?? So what if he's shooting 26% from out there, he's a superstar and he WILL eventually start hitting them, especially since he's playing us--and for some reason players in a slump always get out of their slump after they play us (hmm I wonder why?!?!?!). In this case, maybe we should trade Roy and then he'll get out of his slump after he plays us later on in this season lmao.

I don't see how the Front Office (if we even have anybody in there right now...seems empty to me) still pays this guy to "coach" even after quotes like this and a horrible road trip against midlevel Western Conference teams...yeah, it's the Western Conference, but we got embarrassed MANY times during that 4-game road trip. And the Pacers ticket sales people are wondering why I won't re-up anymore. HA!

Anthem
01-24-2011, 11:20 PM
Look, I know we'll knock Jim for anything, but that's actually a pretty good strategy to bring into the game. The dude's shooting 25% from range, you give him that shot until he proves to be a threat.

But what it shows is poor in-game management. At what point would you decide that he's proved he can make it from there? The fourth three-pointer? The fifth?

Midcoasted
01-25-2011, 12:22 AM
I get a chuckle out of JOBs strategy every night.

Hoop
01-25-2011, 12:26 AM
This seemed like a good place for this.

I was just watching the Sacramento vs Portland game. Portland's announcers where still talking about and laughing at JOB's strategy against them the other night.

I've never in my many years of watching basketball heard so many negatives comments about an apposing team's coach as I have JOB over the last several years by various announcers/commentators.

It would be down right comical, if not so sadly depressing.

Midcoasted
01-25-2011, 12:31 AM
Look, I know we'll knock Jim for anything, but that's actually a pretty good strategy to bring into the game. The dude's shooting 25% from range, you give him that shot until he proves to be a threat.

But what it shows is poor in-game management. At what point would you decide that he's proved he can make it from there? The fourth three-pointer? The fifth?

I don't know, maybe I'm stupid, but I just think the idea of leaving Carmello Anthony open period is a bad idea. Sure he struggles shooting the three against stiff west coast competition on a regular basis, but not when he is wide open.

This whole type of JOB strategy is why we are the laughing stock of the NBA. A few posters questioned me on this the other day, and maybe they aren't seeing what I'm seeing, but at least the bad teams are getting high draft picks. We are just getting laughed at, because our coach is the most inept in the entire league, and it has gone far enough.

TPTB are worried about losing money. The funny thing is if they fire JOB and make anyone interim coach, they will make more money, because the young guys will play the system they want to play, and we will win. This means more fans will show up. I think we could easily sell an extra 40 thousand tickets if JOB is gone. Do the math. I promise I will pay for 2 games and drive up there if he is gone. If we fans make the promise that if they can JOB then we'll attend as many of the last 21 home games we can, it will be worth it. I could see us potentially averaging 3-4 thousand extra fans a game. That would be like 80,000 more people over the next few months.

Build for the future now. JOB is done, the fans are discontent, and the only way to fix the situation is to fire him. Better to start now then later. We can still bring in a coach over the summer. Sadly I think Bird will stick with JOB because he will play the vets all the way to the deadline and that by default increases their chances of being traded, so maybe at this point, keeping him until the deadline is the best option? I'm reaching here...:cry:

Mackey_Rose
01-25-2011, 12:55 AM
Here is a demonstration in how I feel eveytime I get to watch a Pacers game.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xHKTE75dgE4" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

That's how Lance feels on his nights off.

michealwilliams4
01-25-2011, 02:06 AM
Look, I know we'll knock Jim for anything, but that's actually a pretty good strategy to bring into the game. The dude's shooting 25% from range, you give him that shot until he proves to be a threat.

But what it shows is poor in-game management. At what point would you decide that he's proved he can make it from there? The fourth three-pointer? The fifth?

This is the side I'm on. The playbook link that was shared showed Melo open as Brandon was helping against pick and rolls at the basket. With how easy the Nuggets had gotten baskets inside in the game, I think that's where Brandon should rightfully be focusing his efforts. You play the odds in this case and you help inside and let Anthony shoot that shot.

But the lack of adjustment is the only concern with this strategy. When you're playing subpar shooters like Melo, or even say Wade and James, you've got to be willing to play off them and help against a higher percentage shot if that choice is there. But if they start hitting that shot...you can't just keep playing the odds. Start defending.

NapTonius Monk
01-25-2011, 02:17 AM
This seemed like a good place for this.

I was just watching the Sacramento vs Portland game. Portland's announcers where still talking about and laughing at JOB's strategy against them the other night.

I've never in my many years of watching basketball heard so many negatives comments about an apposing team's coach as I have JOB over the last several years by various announcers/commentators.

It would be down right comical, if not so sadly depressing.The Portland announcers are nimrods. We have it so good with Mark and Slick.

NapTonius Monk
01-25-2011, 02:18 AM
That's how Lance feels on his nights off.
:lmao:

Bball
01-25-2011, 03:51 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm stupid, but I just think the idea of leaving Carmello Anthony open period is a bad idea.

This!

For one thing, this isn't Jeff Foster at the 3 point line we're talking about. It's one of the biggest names in the NBA. A player that carries his team often. That he's not a good 3 point shooter statistically probably means he's not a good 3 point shooter when being guarded. But a player with his confidence and experience intentionally left open? C'mon... that's insanity. To roll the dice a little risks letting him get hot and getting on a streak. And how long before you adjust once you do let him get rolling (if you're crazy enough to risk him getting hot in the first place since it will make stopping him anywhere on the court even harder once his confidence is up)?

O'Brien is like the proverbial educated fool- no common sense. No ability to look past the initial thing his mind is telling him.

So he let's a 25% 3pt shooter go unchallenged... and thinks he's playing the odds. Except he's apparently not factoring who that 25% 3pt shooter is... or how he came to get that percentage (by other teams giving him wide open looks??? ...probably not).

I remember quite some time ago someone was complaining about O'Brien and Hicks defended him by saying something like "O'Brien's not an idiot".

I'd like to challenge Hicks on that comment... I think that's exactly what O'Brien is. You do enough idiotic things eventually the label is going to stick.

15th parallel
01-25-2011, 04:42 AM
I can't believe JOB hasn't learned from what Michael Jordan did to teams who let him shoot from the 3. He is a career 33% 3pt fg shooter, and in most seasons he played he has very low 3pt fg%, but when he was left wide open and feeling it to score, he' shooting the lights out beyond the arc. Granted 33% is higher than 25%, but still both are elite scorers, who can put points like there's no tomorrow, from inside the paint or from beyond the arc. It's not like Melo is shy in taking threes that JOB can simply leave him wide open and assume he won't make it. An elite scorer is licensed to shoot from anywhere, and they'll keep shooting whether it's effective or not.

I don't know, but he may be using Posey as reference for his defensive strategy on Melo (he's a 30+% at three, but opponents most of the time leave him wide open, and the opponents' gambles paid off because he misses most of the time).

indygeezer
01-25-2011, 07:09 AM
When Reggie was in a slump, how many teams left HIM wide open?

Major Cold
01-25-2011, 07:27 AM
Did JOB ever think that the reason Melo is shooting 25% out there is because teams ARE guarding him? And since they let him run free the numbers then would revert back to his career average.

That is why the numbers game is so limited. Statistics are subjective more than people realize.

thewholefnshow31
01-25-2011, 08:10 AM
I think leaving one of the better scorers in the league wide open any time is a pretty stupid idea, but the simple fact that JOB did not adjust his defensive strategy at all in the game just shows why he is a bad coach.

If you are getting killed by Melo shooting the three maybe it would be a good idea to tighten up the defense and maybe put a hand in his face. You do not just keep doing what has been proven to fail over and over again and expect to win.

You let a scorer the caliber of Melo to get hot he will run you out of the building and that is exactly what JOB's defensive strategy allowed to happen.

bulldog
01-25-2011, 09:00 AM
As far as I can tell we've gotten lit up by someone on every single game this road trip.

So maybe we're just not a good defensive team?

Of course, don't let that get in the way of bashing O'Brien's strategy or statistical analysis. I'm sure if we had some other coach Melo would have scored like 2 points on us.

Mackey_Rose
01-25-2011, 09:13 AM
As far as I can tell we've gotten lit up by someone on every single game this road trip.

So maybe we're just not a good defensive team?

Of course, don't let that get in the way of bashing O'Brien's strategy or statistical analysis. I'm sure if we had some other coach Melo would have scored like 2 points on us.

Ridiculous argument. Not one person has tried to suggest that.

No matter how hard some may try, and strangely many of the usual suspects have been mostly absent lately, there is absolutely no reasonable way to defend the lack of in-game adjustments made on that trip.

I didn't watch the Portland game, so I can't comment on that one, but the Clippers, Warriors, and Nuggets game were all coaching travesties. Blake Griffin, Monta Ellis, and Carmelo Anthony are all very good players, and there is no real way to stop them, but you have to at least make an effort to slow them down. O'Brien didn't do that. He formulated his strategy and stuck to it through Hell or high water. How do you not even try to change anything up and make it harder for those guys when they are single-handedly destroying your team? Despicable effort from The Thinker.

You can say that he had the right idea from a strategic perspective, but tactically he failed miserably.

BRushWithDeath
01-25-2011, 09:16 AM
That's how Lance feels on his nights off.

Given that his public screw-up to minute played ratio is 3:0, isn't every night an off night for Lance?

McKeyFan
01-25-2011, 09:24 AM
O'Brien is like the proverbial educated fool- no common sense. No ability to look past the initial thing his mind is telling him.

Plus, he is extremely stubborn.

McKeyFan
01-25-2011, 09:27 AM
You let a scorer the caliber of Melo to get hot he will run you out of the building and that is exactly what JOB's defensive strategy allowed to happen.
JOB thinks mathematically.

He seems oblivious to the more important human element. Melo won't find a rhythm. Roy, Tyler, and Josh don't need predictable minutes. Bring AJ from street clothes the entire year to starting the fourth quarter when we're behind.

Unclebuck
01-25-2011, 09:29 AM
This seemed like a good place for this.

I was just watching the Sacramento vs Portland game. Portland's announcers where still talking about and laughing at JOB's strategy against them the other night.

I've never in my many years of watching basketball heard so many negatives comments about an apposing team's coach as I have JOB over the last several years by various announcers/commentators.

It would be down right comical, if not so sadly depressing.

what specifically did they say

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 09:32 AM
That's how Lance feels on his nights off.

:twss:

Deep throat would actually say that :D

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 09:36 AM
what specifically did they say

According to pacers4ever they said that at least their rotations are not as bad as a JOB coached team or some like that.

tsm612
01-25-2011, 11:19 AM
According to pacers4ever they said that at least their rotations are not as bad as a JOB coached team or some like that.

Yeah, they were talking about how stupid JOB's rotations are. Also, the guys that do the fantasy show on NBA TV said yesterday that he's the worst in the league with his lineups and said Roy should be playing around 35 minutes per game. They were pretty blunt with their criticisms, too.

vnzla81
01-25-2011, 11:23 AM
Yeah, they were talking about how stupid JOB's rotations are. Also, the guys that do the fantasy show on NBA TV said yesterday that he's the worst in the league with his lineups and said Roy should be playing around 35 minutes per game. They were pretty blunt with their criticisms, too.

Well, at least his nickname "the clown" fits him now because he is making a lot of people laugh.

Unclebuck
01-25-2011, 12:06 PM
Yeah, they were talking about how stupid JOB's rotations are. Also, the guys that do the fantasy show on NBA TV said yesterday that he's the worst in the league with his lineups and said Roy should be playing around 35 minutes per game. They were pretty blunt with their criticisms, too.

Obviously they do not know how poorly Roy has been playing over the past two months

tsm612
01-25-2011, 12:12 PM
Obviously they do not know how poorly Roy has been playing over the past two months

They have, obviously, because they're the guys that do the coverage for fantasy basketball. They're also aware of his erratic playing time, and more than likely attribute at least some of his poor play to that. Even now that Roy's coming out of his slump, JOB is still screwing with his minutes.

pacer4ever
01-25-2011, 01:03 PM
According to pacers4ever they said that at least their rotations are not as bad as a JOB coached team or some like that.

ya thats wat they said it still makes me :laugh:

Peck
01-25-2011, 01:09 PM
I have league pass but I only watch games on other teams broadcasts to see Pacer games that FSN Midwest doesn't carry.

But the few times I have seen these games over the past two years there have been some times when the announcers have almost chuckled when they were talking about Jim O'Brien's love of the three point shot.

The worst I can remember was the OKC Thunder broadcast crew last year. Grant Long was doing color commentary for them and not only did they openly laugh about Jim's infatuation with the three Grant told a story about having to play for Jim and how in all of his years a coach never told him to step back and take a three but O'Brien not only insisted on it he got mad at him whenever he didn't do it.

Bball
01-25-2011, 01:21 PM
That's right... because statistically a 3 is worth more than a 2. Could there be anything else to consider?

Sookie
01-25-2011, 01:31 PM
Obviously they do not know how poorly Roy has been playing over the past two months

Here's the problem with this.

We all agree, that in the begining of the year, the offense revolved around Hibbert.

And we also all agree that Hibbert has been struggling.

Why did that happen? Because teams adjusted to the Pacers offense, and decided it was necessary to just shut down Hibbert. That adjustment worked, and the NBA is "a copycat league" so all other teams that have scouted us, will do the same thing.

O'brien's is the coach. His job is to help his best players score by putting them in the best position possible to succeed.

During the WNBA championship series a few years ago, where it was Indiana against Phoenix, Diana Taurasi was struggling to score because the defense of Katie Douglas and Tamika Catchings is really good and because Lin Dunn had scouted the Phoenix offense really well and had figured out how to stop it.

This is "possible best player in the league" Diana Taurasi. This is "won some form of a championship (highschool, College, international, or WNBA) as the best player on the team every year from 2000 to 2010" Diana Taurasi. And she needed help. If SHE needed help, don't you think Roy Hibbert, a guy who..although talanted, has never had a team on his shoulders like he was having this season?

So, after two games of struggling, Taurasi had a breakout game. And the coach said, "I needed to stop being stubborn and help her out, and make some adjustments to get her going." AKA, he acted like a coach.

JOB made one adjustment, he moved his powerforward out to the three point line.

But after that didn't work, he essentially gave up on Roy. Roy's minutes were reduced and they ran the same offense (with the added stretch four) Now we've tried a different offense, that essentially revolves around the PG playing PnR and often setting up Hans, with everyone else standing on the side waiting for a three point opportunity.

That's not adjusting to help Roy out. That's making a poor adjustment and giving up on him. Roy Hibbert IS talanted, he is a skilled bigman, and he deserves the opportunity to succeed, because of how hard he's worked and because in order for this team to be the best it can be, Roy has to be playing well. He does not deserve, however, to be thrown under the bus.

So as much as yea, Roy's struggling is partially on Roy, and his mentality, it's also partially on JOB. And JOB probably did the worst things imaginable for Roy's case.

bulldog
01-25-2011, 02:04 PM
You can say that he had the right idea from a strategic perspective, but tactically he failed miserably.

You can argue he should have adjusted. I agree. Who guarded Melo last night? Dunleavy? I didn't watch the game. He could have changed the match up.

To be fair though, that's inconsistent with the majority opinion that his rotations should be more consistent.

Most coaches hesitate to ask their players to change their gameplan in the middle of a game. If you want to make an adjustment, switching up the guys on the court is the most straightforward way.

But I get the feeling that people on this board might be unhappy with that as well.

Finally, Melo scored 38 on us. But Aldridge dropped what, 24? Ellis was in the 30's. Griffin almost hit 50.

So what do you think is the greatest factor in Melo dropping 38? JOB's particular strategy in that game? Or our defense in general on this road trip?

Since86
01-25-2011, 02:06 PM
Asking your players to guard him normally is asking them to make an adjustment that would cause problems?

Players are conditioned to play a certain "default" way. Asking them to leave Melo wide-open would be the hard part, because you'd have to think in the moment about how you need to slide more into the middle, rather than just doing it naturally.

It shouldn't be rocket science.

pacer4ever
01-25-2011, 02:22 PM
You can argue he should have adjusted. I agree. Who guarded Melo last night? Dunleavy? I didn't watch the game. He could have changed the match up.

To be fair though, that's inconsistent with the majority opinion that his rotations should be more consistent.

Most coaches hesitate to ask their players to change their gameplan in the middle of a game. If you want to make an adjustment, switching up the guys on the court is the most straightforward way.

But I get the feeling that people on this board might be unhappy with that as well.

Finally, Melo scored 38 on us. But Aldridge dropped what, 24? Ellis was in the 30's. Griffin almost hit 50.

So what do you think is the greatest factor in Melo dropping 38? JOB's particular strategy in that game? Or our defense in general on this road trip?

read the quotes no one was guading melo that was the game plan

Bball
01-25-2011, 02:23 PM
Asking your players to guard him normally is asking them to make an adjustment that would cause problems?

Players are conditioned to play a certain "default" way. Asking them to leave Melo wide-open would be the hard part, because you'd have to think in the moment about how you need to slide more into the middle, rather than just doing it naturally.

It shouldn't be rocket science.

But Carmelo is a 25% 3pt shooter. That means he'd be like 37.5% from 2pt land. Daring him to shoot 3's by leaving him open is a way to lower his overall shooting percentage for the game and make him have the equivalent game impact of a 37.5% shooter from 2pt range...

Can't you see? -Our 'defense' forced him into taking 3's (where he shoots 25%) and statistically his impact then should've been the same as if he was shooting 37.5% from inside the arc or paint. If you hold Carmelo to shooting 37.5% from the field wouldn't you take that? It's right there in the numbers. How can we all be so blind to this brilliant statistical strategy? I mean... yeah... OK... it didn't work because he shot better than his statistical average from beyond the arc but our strategy has sound statistical explanations on why it should've worked...

/Green

...doesn't it?

naptownmenace
01-25-2011, 02:38 PM
Ridiculous argument. Not one person has tried to suggest that.

No matter how hard some may try, and strangely many of the usual suspects have been mostly absent lately, there is absolutely no reasonable way to defend the lack of in-game adjustments made on that trip.

I didn't watch the Portland game, so I can't comment on that one, but the Clippers, Warriors, and Nuggets game were all coaching travesties. Blake Griffin, Monta Ellis, and Carmelo Anthony are all very good players, and there is no real way to stop them, but you have to at least make an effort to slow them down. O'Brien didn't do that. He formulated his strategy and stuck to it through Hell or high water. How do you not even try to change anything up and make it harder for those guys when they are single-handedly destroying your team? Despicable effort from The Thinker.

You can say that he had the right idea from a strategic perspective, but tactically he failed miserably.


I have to disagree slightly with the Clippers game. They actually changed their strategy a little with Blake during the 4th quarter and started sending double-teams his way. He either scored anyway or he found the open shooter on the perimeter. I thought that game fell on the players lack of defending Eric Gordon and Baron Davis on the perimeter and their lack of offensive execution on the other end of the floor.

Against the Warriors, they lost for many reasons but I blame that loss 50% on the coach and 50% on the players. Jim went completely away from the lineup that had established the large lead and kept Jeff Foster out on the floor too long. Foster was absolutely terrible on the offensive end of the floor - from missing layups and open jumpers, to offensive fouls and turnovers. He should've put McRoberts and Paul George back out on the floor. Even with that said, Rush and Collison were constantly out of position when guarding Ellis and Curry. Danny was way too indecisive and instead of taking some shots when he was open he turned it over. AJ and Darren couldn't hold onto the ball either as they repeatedly turned the ball over. Ultimately, they had the game in hand but players couldn't execute and that's why they lost.

Portland was a repeat of the Warriors game and I actually think it was more the Players fault that it was the coach's. They screwed that game up very badly by missing wide open shots, turning the ball over, and not rotating to the shooters quick enough on the defensive end.

The Denver game - I don't even care to analyze it. There was no way the Pacers were going to beat the Nuggets, especially after the way they blew them out back in November. Melo always destroys the Pacers in Denver so no shock there - they could've double-teamed him at the 3 point line the entire game he still would've scored 30 on them. It was nice to see Hansbrough man up and even frustrate Kenyon Martin.

I still think O'Brien is a sub-par coach and needs to go but I also think that the Pacers have a lot of sub-par players on their team.

indyaway
01-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Bottom line - you don't leave any NBA caliber guard who averages 20+ a game wide open to shoot a 3. Part of the NBA combine is spot up shooting and the % that even average shooters can knock down uncontested shots is pretty high.** Someone like Melo more often then not is going to fill the basket at a ridiculous clip if he's undefended.

** Paul George shot 52% from college 3 and 64% from NBA 3 distance. Off the dribble mid-range is an automatic 87.5%. That's PG, not Melo...

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba-draft-combine-shooting-drill-results

Anyone who defends O'Brien at this point is revealing themselves as a blind follower of anyone with the title 'coach'.

McKeyFan
01-25-2011, 03:15 PM
Anyone who defends O'Brien at this point is revealing themselves as a blind follower of anyone with the title 'coach'.
Don't forget trolls, contrarians, Jack Ramsey, and 50% of Grecian Formula reps.

90'sNBARocked
01-25-2011, 04:32 PM
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/britt_robson/01/25/power.rankings/index.html#ixzz1C5a0qE1v


Indiana Pacers (16-25)
Time to revisit coach Jim O'Brien's comments about Roy Hibbert back on Dec. 13. At the time, through 22 games, Hibbert seemed prominent in the mix for Most Improved Player, averaging 14.9 points, 8.6 rebounds and 3.1 assists for the 11-11 Pacers. But asked about Hibbert's contention for the award that night, O'Brien said, "I think Roy would say -- and I certainly share this belief -- I don't think he's having a very good season." There was more in the same vein, always with O'Brien inferring that he and Hibbert were collectively critical of the center's play. Well, since then, Hibbert has really gone in the tank. His numbers are drastically down across the board and he has sought help from a sports psychologist. Meanwhile, Indiana has tumbled to 16-25. The primary job of a coach is to motivate his players, especially if they happen to be young franchise cornerstones. O'Brien's "tough love" comments misread Hibbert's psyche. Hibbert is accountable for his poor play -- and, obviously, he's well aware of it. But O'Brien isn't blameless here.

Since86
01-25-2011, 04:35 PM
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/britt_robson/01/25/power.rankings/index.html#ixzz1C5a0qE1v

I'm piggybacking this, if you don't mind.

bulldog
01-25-2011, 04:39 PM
Anyone who defends O'Brien at this point is revealing themselves as a blind follower of anyone with the title 'coach'.

It's a shame that this seems to be the official position of the entire board.

For the record, I'm not "defending" O'Brien. I'm just trying to repeatedly make the point, in several threads, that even if O'brien coached better, or we replaced him with a better coach, our results would not be much different. This is a mediocre team. O'Brien is not the sole, or in my opinion even major, reason.

Read NaptownMenace's excellent summary of the past several games. I agree about the adjustment he made against Griffin, and Griffin still dropped 50. He didn't adjust for Melo, and Melo dropped 38.

Adjust or don't adjust, good players score a lot of points on us cause our team defense hasn't been good (at least on this road trip, was much better at beginning of the year).

I'm just so frustrated that anytime anything bad happens everyone screams "OBRIENNNNN!!!!!"

Melo scored 38? O'Brien should have changed the D and switched someone else on him! O'Brien plays for matchups and changes up his rotation? O'Brien should have kept more consistency, why is he changing the line-up every night!

It's a little ridiculous. We're a mediocre team. A lot of bad things will happen whether or not O'Brien is our coach.

Since86
01-25-2011, 04:55 PM
And O'Brien compounds the problem.

When the explanation of Jim's tactics have to go so far south that you need to argue that in-game adjustments will confuse the players, I think the explanations have hit rockbottom.

We have posters arguing that each player needs to be handled the exact same, we have arguments that in-game adjustments will confuse the players, we have arguments that Posey's minutes per game aren't significant even when he's playing just as much time as starters.

Jim O'Brien is the HEAD COACH of the Indiana Pacers. Everything that happens with them goes through that position. That is the title and job description of the position. Jim knew that before he took the job, every coach does. If he didn't think he couldn't handle the criticisms of that position, then he wouldn't have taken the job.

I know it drives me nuts to see whacky arguments trying to show that there is some logic to his madness.

His solutions aren't illogical on paper, but in practice, they are.

When you need to argue that in-game adjustments will confuse the players I think you've reached a point where you're defending him, just to defend him.

Carmelo has a career scoring average of 24.7 ppg. It's downright dumb to think the best way to "stop" him is to let him shoot. That's just dumb.

Bball
01-25-2011, 05:41 PM
I love it... His offensive strategy is a love of the 3 ball.... So what's his defensive strategy for Carmelo.... Letting him shoot threes...

Nah... that doesn't send a contradictory message to the team about strategies... /Green

ilive4sports
01-25-2011, 06:00 PM
I love it... His offensive strategy is a love of the 3 ball.... So what's his defensive strategy for Carmelo.... Letting him shoot threes...

Nah... that doesn't send a contradictory message to the team about strategies... /Green

He loves the three so much, he wants the opponent to make them too!

BillS
01-25-2011, 06:25 PM
I'd say that I agree that O'Brien should have made an in-game adjustment when staying back off Melo wasn't working, and that I agree that his biggest flaw is an inability to make those same in-game adjustments, but since I have in the past defended, and reserve the right in the future to defend, some of his actions, I am merely a blind follower of anyone with the title 'coach' or a troll, contrarian, Jack Ramsey, or a 50-50 chance of being a Grecian Formula rep.

Anthem
01-25-2011, 07:20 PM
For the record, I'm not "defending" O'Brien. I'm just trying to repeatedly make the point, in several threads, that even if O'brien coached better, or we replaced him with a better coach, our results would not be much different. This is a mediocre team. O'Brien is not the sole, or in my opinion even major, reason.
There's something to what you say, but the obvious response has been stated probably weekly for the past two or three years.

Take last year. Let's say that Obie had dropped Murphy's minutes down to 30mpg and given Josh the leftovers. Would we have won more games? I actually think we'd have been marginally better even at that time. But Josh would be a lot better right now, which would make the team better.

Let's say that instead of jerking AJ in and out of the lineup, he'd benched TJ and played what he and everyone else watching the games said was a better player. Would we have won more games? Not many. But AJ would be a different player than he is now.

In the short term, we wouldn't be worse by playing the kids more. And in the long term, we'd be a lot better.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2011, 08:59 PM
Isn't it rather, um, odd the best strategy Jim could come up to defend Melo was to give him open 3s considering that "spacing the floor" by shooting 3s is his best offensive strategy to win?
Wow, contradiction of logic for the loss Jim.

Don't you love it when coaches doublespeak this way. Things go from a great idea to a terrible idea depending on if it covers your butt or not.


BTW, who wants to bet that Melo didn't acquire a 25% 3pt rate by shooting OPEN 3pt shots.

I'll give JOB the massive benefit of the doubt and assume he had watched tons of tape on Melo the last month and saw that he was missing open shots and figured that was a safe bet.




Then again Melo in the post was brutal on George too. This was something I was actually pleased with, that JOB gave Paul time to take some lumps and to get schooled a bit in the art of one on one defense.

To me George is actually showing nice court awareness but really gets sucked in by man to man tricks, fakes, riding too high up on Melo in the post that let him get the oop, etc. That's stuff that is best learned by having it done to you. I thought even later in the game Paul was getting better with guys like JR Smith.

This season is about FINDING OUT, it's not about already knowing. That way next year can be about knowing.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2011, 09:11 PM
It's a shame that this seems to be the official position of the entire board.
Let's think about the location of this thread - a die-hard basketball fanatics fan thread that often involves pretty significant analysis and debate, random people like myself that literally pull video and analyze it just for the joy of it, tons of people who did play or are playing at a semi-competitive level at least, others like TBird who coach the sport at a modestly high level with success, and all of us devouring tons of examples of the sport in all formats all the time.

And we, the unwashed masses, have come to some drastically incorrect conclusion because we just don't get it. And all the outsiders that make similar comments which are then quoted here, those idiots are randomly buying into the same conclusions we are.

But the 5-6 Pacers fans that want to see the PACERS COACH supported...those are the only ones actually on track?



Sorry, but if a house full of firefighters all smell smoke, I'm running for a bucket of water.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2011, 09:16 PM
When the explanation of Jim's tactics have to go so far south that you need to argue that in-game adjustments will confuse the players, I think the explanations have hit rockbottom.
Especially when this is what made the Carlisle/Bird teams so awesome. They'd run a play for the first quarter or so and work a team over. Just when they adjusted to it the Pacers would already have the secondary move like a new cutter waiting to pounce on it.

Their offense was nothing but adjusting, and usually with a deep playbook that built one play off another. Run the ball, set up the play action. Pass the ball and use the draw or trap run under the pass rush.

Teams have been adjusting on the Pacers mid-game all year. What is dropping into a zone suddenly if not an in-game adjustment. How you are working the PnR, when and where you are doubling the post, etc. Show me a team that can't make those adjustments and I'll show you a horrible defensive NBA team (or offensive)

Unclebuck
01-25-2011, 09:33 PM
I think it is reasonable when guarding Mello to force him to shoot some threes, that to this point in this season has been his biggest weakness. He is almost impossible to stop from almost anywhere and his one weakness is that he struggles to hit threes.


So if I were puting together a defensive gameplan against mello I would say when he's outsde the three point line dont be afraid to give him a little room to shoot the three.

90'sNBARocked
01-25-2011, 11:30 PM
Grecian Formula rep.

LMAO

Takes me back to those commercials

pacer4ever
01-25-2011, 11:45 PM
This season is about FINDING OUT, it's not about already knowing. That way next year can be about knowing.

This but the way the first half was coached we might have to repeat this process next yr.:eek:

bulldog
01-25-2011, 11:54 PM
Sorry, but if a house full of firefighters all smell smoke, I'm running for a bucket of water.



I'm sure you watch a lot of tape, but I still don't think you or I know that much about basketball. It's a complex game, and there should be more room for dissent. My speaking out about O'brien's limited role in our failure does not make me a blind follower, and yet it seems to me that the official position of the board has become to assign any and all failures squarely on his shoulders.

If all the firefighters see a fire, but I point out that there's a bunch of other fires behind them, then I am not the one who's blind.



This season is about FINDING OUT, it's not about already knowing. That way next year can be about knowing.
This is a great point, and one I strongly agree with. And Jim's record on preparing us for the future, on developing the players who will win us games next year, is mixed to positive and certainly much more nuanced than the "ARGGGGGHHHHH JIM O'BRIEN SUCKS!!!" attitude that currently pervades the board.

spazzxb
01-26-2011, 12:28 AM
I'm sure you watch a lot of tape, but I still don't think you or I know that much about basketball. It's a complex game, and there should be more room for dissent. My speaking out about O'brien's limited role in our failure does not make me a blind follower, and yet it seems to me that the official position of the board has become to assign any and all failures squarely on his shoulders.

If all the firefighters see a fire, but I point out that there's a bunch of other fires behind them, then I am not the one who's blind.


This is a great point, and one I strongly agree with. And Jim's record on preparing us for the future, on developing the players who will win us games next year, is mixed to positive and certainly much more nuanced than the "ARGGGGGHHHHH JIM O'BRIEN SUCKS!!!" attitude that currently pervades the board.

If your not with them in hating every fiber of his being you are designated Obriens biggest fan, just kinda how it goes around here. This refers only to a small collection of posters , but they will find you. If your willing to point out that anything isn't his fault your not behaving like one of the sheep here.

Peck
01-26-2011, 02:16 AM
I'm sure you watch a lot of tape, but I still don't think you or I know that much about basketball. It's a complex game, and there should be more room for dissent. My speaking out about O'brien's limited role in our failure does not make me a blind follower, and yet it seems to me that the official position of the board has become to assign any and all failures squarely on his shoulders.

If all the firefighters see a fire, but I point out that there's a bunch of other fires behind them, then I am not the one who's blind.


This is a great point, and one I strongly agree with. And Jim's record on preparing us for the future, on developing the players who will win us games next year, is mixed to positive and certainly much more nuanced than the "ARGGGGGHHHHH JIM O'BRIEN SUCKS!!!" attitude that currently pervades the board.

In all fairness to board members though, this isn't year two or even year three. This is year four with the exact same complaints, problems, issues that have haunted our team since he came aboard.

Frankly logically talking about him anymore serves no purpose. Actually talking about him period serves no purpose as no matter what we do, say or believe will make no difference in the long run.

But when you are just going on our members here, I think a lot of it is just simply frustration with the same issue every year.

Yes, there are a few who just want to run around and yell Jim sucks at the top of their lungs and they have wanted to do that since they started here but you have a lot and I mean a lot of long term posters who are not generally part of any lynch mob that are just fed up with this.

Sit down and talk to any of them and to a man or woman I bet they would be willing to admit several things. 1. We are not an overly talented group of players. 2. A coaching change will most likely not bring a significant win/loss record without also some player changes. 3. When Jim O'Brien explains the logic in his thinking it makes sense. 4. He has a brilliant analytical mind when it comes to numbers and probably knows more about basketball than over half the coaches in the NBA. 5. He probably communicates to his players better than he does to the public or the press.

It's unfair to just lump each and every poster into some catagory, which goes for people who support his coaching as well.

Merz
01-26-2011, 03:08 AM
If your not with them in hating every fiber of his being you are designated Obriens biggest fan, just kinda how it goes around here. This refers only to a small collection of posters , but they will find you. If your willing to point out that anything isn't his fault your not behaving like one of the sheep here.

That goes the other way as well. If someone does bring up one of his flaws, the O'Brien brigade (mainly just you) consider it nothing but "blind hatred". That is just as extreme but on the other side.

I understand your problem with the posters who rag on O'Brien for everything (I find it annoying myself). Until you stop with your "blind loyalty" (and use of the word hater, which is just an infantile, ridiculous word...no one here hates O'Brien personally and for no reason, some are just more vocal) you don't really have room to talk.

Just ignore the ones who complain about O'Brien ad nauseum. That way you can differentiate the ones that annoy you and the ones who have a valid point when it comes to JOB's shortcomings...because not everyone is a "hater".

spazzxb
01-26-2011, 05:02 AM
That goes the other way as well. If someone does bring up one of his flaws, the O'Brien brigade (mainly just you) consider it nothing but "blind hatred". That is just as extreme but on the other side.

I understand your problem with the posters who rag on O'Brien for everything (I find it annoying myself). Until you stop with your "blind loyalty" (and use of the word hater, which is just an infantile, ridiculous word...no one here hates O'Brien personally and for no reason, some are just more vocal) you don't really have room to talk.

Just ignore the ones who complain about O'Brien ad nauseum. That way you can differentiate the ones that annoy you and the ones who have a valid point when it comes to JOB's shortcomings...because not everyone is a "hater".

I know the difference, the same people argue with me all the time. The posters that annoy me won't respond if asked what they actually want, or personally attack me for no reason except to try and discredit me as a poster . They try to blow you off as being a dreaded Obrien supporter while giving no respect to any of the content of your post. If you have a position and defend it I treat you with respect. I may say something more forcefully than I intend but I always respect others opinions even if I disagree. If you just lob random insults I may mess with you a bit. I also get annoyed when people make the same stupid jokes every game thread(make up unrealistic thing and say JOB is going to do it). I also feel it would be nice if people would just shut up about Posey until something actually happens for them to complain about in the game threads. The Posey attacks start before the games anymore. I honestly don't even remember you and don't know if I have ever had a debate with you or what your point of view is on anything, therefore I am unsure why you are coming at me with the inaccurate personal attack. Thanks for demonstrating how immature some people around her can be( its exactly what I intended to warn this guy about).

Unclebuck
01-26-2011, 07:27 AM
Carmelo has a career scoring average of 24.7 ppg. It's downright dumb to think the best way to "stop" him is to let him shoot. That's just dumb.

I am going broaden your point. During Jordan's first 6 or 7 years in the NBA they way you guardd him was let him shoot threes. give him some room, play him for the drive and Michael averaged a lot more than 24 points per game.

A lot of really good players you guard like that. Wade has been one, even Lebron, play them for the drive if they are hiting the three you are in trouble anyway.

That is very common over the years.

what drives me nuts is any strategy that Jim O'Brien comes up with no matter how much merit it has is ridiculed in this forum as if it is the dumbest thing ever. Most teams tend to defense mello the same way. We can arguea about to what degree or whether the players executed the gameplan correctly

vnzla81
01-26-2011, 08:17 AM
what drives me nuts is any strategy that Jim O'Brien comes up with no matter how much merit it has is ridiculed in this forum as if it is the dumbest thing ever. Most teams tend to defense mello the same way. We can arguea about to what degree or whether the players executed the gameplan correctly



I don't know if you got to read the article but JOB has not only been ridiculed by some people here in PD but is been ridiculed by the player he used this strategy againts(is in the thread title) people on national tv are also making fun of him, but is OK, keep thinking that the JOB hate(as you call it) is only here in PD.

Unclebuck
01-26-2011, 09:10 AM
I don't know if you got to read the article but JOB has not only been ridiculed by some people here in PD but is been ridiculed by the player he used this strategy againts(is in the thread title) people on national tv are also making fun of him, but is OK, keep thinking that the JOB hate(as you call it) is only here in PD.

Yes I read the article. I took it to mean that melo was surprised that the defensvie strategy against him didn't change after mello got hot - and maybe it should have or maybe the players didn't execute the change.

Plus I think you misread my post in response top Since 86 - I was expanding the point to suggest that yes there have been over the years players who averages more than 24 points per game where you do 'give them threes". It isn't an unreasonable strategy against great offensive players of which Mello is one

McKeyFan
01-26-2011, 09:16 AM
If someone does bring up one of his flaws, the O'Brien brigade (mainly just you)

What happened to the ubiquitous Flox?

BillS
01-26-2011, 09:20 AM
what drives me nuts is any strategy that Jim O'Brien comes up with no matter how much merit it has is ridiculed in this forum as if it is the dumbest thing ever. Most teams tend to defense mello the same way. We can arguea about to what degree or whether the players executed the gameplan correctly

The issue in this case - which I agree with - is that if your game plan to slow a player down is not working, you at least need to have something else in your pocket to try. If that fails as well, fine, but you don't stick with a failing plan just because it looked like the best plan at the time.

That's the "in-game" adjustment part. If a guy who is normally 24% from 3 starts hitting more than that, there's a reason. Even if it is simply because he's at the high end of his personal bell curve, you respect that and do something about it.

I think JOB does not do well if an in-game situation does not fit into one of his pre-game plans, so he just lets it go and hopes the rest of the game measures up. That may be what you do when you've tried tweaking things and nothing works, but it doesn't help when you only have Plan A, Plan A, and Plan A to choose from.

I think in this case you are right about folks who seem to be criticizing the overall strategy but wrong if you also think it should not have been adjusted when it wasn't working.

vnzla81
01-26-2011, 09:38 AM
Yes I read the article. I took it to mean that melo was surprised that the defensvie strategy against him didn't change after mello got hot - and maybe it should have or maybe the players didn't execute the change.

Plus I think you misread my post in response top Since 86 - I was expanding the point to suggest that yes there have been over the years players who averages more than 24 points per game where you do 'give them threes". It isn't an unreasonable strategy against great offensive players of which Mello is one

I understand your point about the strategy used against Melo, the point is that have Jim ever thought that maybe Melo is under 30% in three pointers because somebody was in his face and no leaving him open? maybe? ok the strategy didn't work so why no try to adjust and do something else instead of forcing the issue? again this is not the first time this happens, I've seen this happening for about four years already.

If there is a worse coach in making adjustments during the game I want to know who that is because Jim is one of the worse if no the worse.

Hicks
01-26-2011, 10:23 AM
I know the difference, the same people argue with me all the time. The posters that annoy me won't respond if asked what they actually want, or personally attack me for no reason except to try and discredit me as a poster . They try to blow you off as being a dreaded Obrien supporter while giving no respect to any of the content of your post. If you have a position and defend it I treat you with respect. I may say something more forcefully than I intend but I always respect others opinions even if I disagree. If you just lob random insults I may mess with you a bit. I also get annoyed when people make the same stupid jokes every game thread(make up unrealistic thing and say JOB is going to do it). I also feel it would be nice if people would just shut up about Posey until something actually happens for them to complain about in the game threads. The Posey attacks start before the games anymore. I honestly don't even remember you and don't know if I have ever had a debate with you or what your point of view is on anything, therefore I am unsure why you are coming at me with the inaccurate personal attack. Thanks for demonstrating how immature some people around her can be( its exactly what I intended to warn this guy about).

Merz did not personally attack you. He criticized some of your behavior. There's a big gap between the two.

vnzla81
01-26-2011, 10:36 AM
Merz did not personally attack you. He criticized some of your behavior. There's a big gap between the two.

I have a feeling that he wasn't talking about Merz ;)

indyaway
01-26-2011, 12:00 PM
Here is a math problem for Jim. If a player is 1-9 for 3pt shooting in the past 5 games but they are a 30% 3pt shooter, based exclusively "on the numbers" what do you think is more likely to happen.

a.) The player will shoot ~10% like he has for the past 5 games?

b.) The player will light yo' azz up when you leave him open behind the arc to return his overall numbers closer to what his average is.

McKeyFan
01-26-2011, 12:09 PM
Here is a math problem for Jim. If a player is 1-9 for 3pt shooting in the past 5 games but they are a 30% 3pt shooter, based exclusively "on the numbers" what do you think is more likely to happen.

a.) The player will shoot ~10% like he has for the past 5 games?

b.) The player will light yo' azz up when you leave him open behind the arc to return his overall numbers closer to what his average is.

c.) When the player hits his first three, four Pacers will be replaced with 7 minutes remaining in the 1st quarter.

spazzxb
01-26-2011, 12:12 PM
Merz did not personally attack you. He criticized some of your behavior. There's a big gap between the two.

I consider slander an attack but its your message board. If we are naming names here are the four people who are going to jump on my back no matter what.

Never brings any substance and works against anything positive. vnzla81

Likes to pick on anyone who disagrees with blaming Obrien and talks about people behind there back. Mckey

Gets offended very easily and if you disagree with him resorts to name calling. Mackey

Likes to jump in fights . Thingfish

Most others that get upset just take things personal that have nothing to with them. I thought this was out of line, but you are letting them get away with it. I spend alot of time trying not to name names normally. Why is Mckey talking about Flox behind his back. I guarentee Flox could give you this same list of people who pick on him .

I have been called a hater far more times than I have ever called anyone anything. Hate is an adjective not a noun. Flox warned me what these people would do the first time I decided to stand up to them, and he was right.

Mackey_Rose
01-26-2011, 12:45 PM
5. He probably communicates to his players better than he does to the public or the press.

I was with you Peck, until this point. O'Brien has effectively stopped communicating with his players, other than as a group in practices, film sessions, or at games.

There is literally zero one-on-one communication between an individual player and the coach.

The biggest thing that blew my mind regarding this subject is the way O'Brien handles his ever-changing inactive list. He doesn't even have the guts to be the guy to inform the players that it is "their turn" to throw on a suit for the night.

Say it is a home game like tonight starting at 7. The players will usually have a shoot around, or as O'Brien likes to do for some reason, they will have a full practice in the morning before the game. Usually they will be done before noon, and then the players will head home and take a nap or do whatever they do to prepare for a game night. At this point, they still have no idea which 12 are active, and which 3 are inactive.

They return to the Fieldhouse between 4 and 5. When they return, in an incredibly cowardly move, the head trainer will then inform them if they have won the active/inactive lottery for the night.

Not O'Brien. Not an assistant coach. Not any other basketball person. The trainer.

O'Brien is not man enough to be the one to tell them so he passes along the duty to this trainer. He could easily do it during the morning workout when they go over the game plan for the night, or he could easily do it in the locker room when the team returns that night. But he doesn't have the balls, so he makes his trainer do it.

Since86
01-26-2011, 12:47 PM
I think it is reasonable when guarding Mello to force him to shoot some threes, that to this point in this season has been his biggest weakness. He is almost impossible to stop from almost anywhere and his one weakness is that he struggles to hit threes.


So if I were puting together a defensive gameplan against mello I would say when he's outsde the three point line dont be afraid to give him a little room to shoot the three.

That's not the issue Buck, and you know it. Jim didn't say force Melo to shoot 3s. Hell, that IS the strategy that teams use.

He told them to let him shoot WIDEOPEN 3s. There is a very big difference.

You know there is a difference, I know there is a difference, and everyone else knows there is a difference.

Like I said, at this point in the time, the explanation of some of his actions have hit rockbottom.



I'm sure you watch a lot of tape, but I still don't think you or I know that much about basketball. It's a complex game, and there should be more room for dissent. My speaking out about O'brien's limited role in our failure does not make me a blind follower, and yet it seems to me that the official position of the board has become to assign any and all failures squarely on his shoulders.

Oh get real.

Basketball is NOT a complicated sport. It's not like there is some secret society of NBA headcoaches, and only they know the innerworkings.

Isiah Thomas NEVER EVER coached basketball, and he got a NBA headcoaching job.

Mark Jackson REFUSES to even get an assistants position, but still thinks he is capable of coaching.

There are coaching clinics that you, personally, can attend for the right amount of money and you will be in attendence with NBA coaches sitting right next to you. They all talk, openly to each other about strategies and behind closed doors.

Let't not pretend like you have to be some basketball genius in order to coach.


That's insulting.

Mackey_Rose
01-26-2011, 01:07 PM
I consider slander an attack but its your message board. If we are naming names here are the four people who are going to jump on my back no matter what.

Gets offended very easily and if you disagree with him resorts to name calling. Mackey

I have been called a hater far more times than I have ever called anyone anything. Hate is an adjective not a noun. Flox warned me what these people would do the first time I decided to stand up to them, and he was right.

I can honestly say I have not been offended one time by anyone on this board.

It's an internet message board. If I get offended by something I read here, I have bigger problems to worry about than some mean poster calling me out on this board.

Coming from the person who takes literally everything personally, and considers all forms of debate personal attacks?

Yeah, you don't offend me.

Perhaps if you wouldn't have started throwing around the word hater like it was the only word you knew, you wouldn't get called it so often. It's said that "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones." Well you cast the first stone. As someone with obviously thin skin, you made the mistake of bringing the criticism on yourself.

If you knew you couldn't take it, you shouldn't have started it.

spazzxb
01-26-2011, 01:28 PM
I can honestly say I have not been offended one time by anyone on this board.

It's an internet message board. If I get offended by something I read here, I have bigger problems to worry about than some mean poster calling me out on this board.

Coming from the person who takes literally everything personally, and considers all forms of debate personal attacks?

Yeah, you don't offend me.

Perhaps if you wouldn't have started throwing around the word hater like it was the only word you knew, you wouldn't get called it so often. It's said that "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones." Well you cast the first stone. As someone with obviously thin skin, you made the mistake of bringing the criticism on yourself.

If you knew you couldn't take it, you shouldn't have started it.


Yeah, you pretty much got nothing right. Reading comprehension for the loss.

Hater.

I can handle anything you got, but I like it here and don't want to get myself in trouble. I consider lying about someone a personal attack, without question.

Unclebuck
01-26-2011, 01:56 PM
I thought Ford was quoted as saying he was told he was demoted while at shoot around

Sookie
01-26-2011, 04:46 PM
I thought Ford was quoted as saying he was told he was demoted while at shoot around

He was told there was no need to participate in shoot around. Not that he wasn't going to play. He inferred it though.

He also said no one talked to him about losing his spot to Price.

It was also mentioned, that there's a shoot around right before the game, which doesn't contradict what Mackey is saying.

bulldog
01-26-2011, 05:16 PM
Oh get real.

Basketball is NOT a complicated sport. It's not like there is some secret society of NBA headcoaches, and only they know the innerworkings.

Let't not pretend like you have to be some basketball genius in order to coach.


That's insulting.

Just curious: Have you ever coached a basketball team? Have you ever played at a competitive level?

Cause I would strongly disagree with your statements. Coaching a good team is really tough, from both the mental and strategic perspective. That's one of the obvious reasons why there's are so few consistently effective coaches in the NBA or the NCAA levels.

ilive4sports
01-26-2011, 05:22 PM
I consider slander an attack but its your message board. If we are naming names here are the four people who are going to jump on my back no matter what.

Never brings any substance and works against anything positive. vnzla81

Likes to pick on anyone who disagrees with blaming Obrien and talks about people behind there back. Mckey

Gets offended very easily and if you disagree with him resorts to name calling. Mackey

Likes to jump in fights . Thingfish

Most others that get upset just take things personal that have nothing to with them. I thought this was out of line, but you are letting them get away with it. I spend alot of time trying not to name names normally. Why is Mckey talking about Flox behind his back. I guarentee Flox could give you this same list of people who pick on him .

I have been called a hater far more times than I have ever called anyone anything. Hate is an adjective not a noun. Flox warned me what these people would do the first time I decided to stand up to them, and he was right.


Dude, you have taken more things personally on this board than anyone. You have gotten yourself thinking that just because we vehemently disagree with you, we are attacking you as a person. We are attacking your argument, thats what is done on a message board.

ilive4sports
01-26-2011, 05:44 PM
Just curious: Have you ever coached a basketball team? Have you ever played at a competitive level?

Cause I would strongly disagree with your statements. Coaching a good team is really tough, from both the mental and strategic perspective. That's one of the obvious reasons why there's are so few consistently effective coaches in the NBA or the NCAA levels.

Basketball is a simple game. You score, try to keep your opponent from scoring. The coaches that make it simple tend to do well. The coaches who make things more complicated don't do so well. What is so complicated about the Spurs game? Its fairly straight forward. Look at the success they have had with it. Even Larry Brown's offense in Detroit was simple and it was very successful.

BringJackBack
01-26-2011, 05:53 PM
Yeah, I miss when spazzxb was good ol' amazing avatar spazzxb. I really liked his posts, and it seems like most of the time he argues that things aren't as ridiculous as someone is trying to make them out to be. That's fine, but he's taken it too far in my opinion. There comes a point when it is what it is.. I really like spazzxb's content when he and others aren't arguing.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem is Jim was never around. JMOAA

spazzxb
01-26-2011, 06:28 PM
Dude, you have taken more things personally on this board than anyone. You have gotten yourself thinking that just because we vehemently disagree with you, we are attacking you as a person. We are attacking your argument, thats what is done on a message board.

Just don't say I always do something when I don't or try and call me A JOB supporter when I am not and I won't take it personally. I support Larry Bird.

I dropped the signature weeks ago. I would have done it sooner but I wasn't going to let anyone browbeat me into it. My signature read "if you have an open mind and reasonable complaints your not a hater". While it didn't go over like I had hoped It was meant to draw a distinction between logical debate and the people who do nothing but complain. I didn't go around calling people names the signature was meant to let the annoying people define themselves. There are examples where people got into big arguments about haters, however you will have try pretty hard to bring out an example where I simply resorted to name calling.

spazzxb
01-26-2011, 06:31 PM
Yeah, I miss when spazzxb was good ol' amazing avatar spazzxb. I really liked his posts, and it seems like most of the time he argues that things aren't as ridiculous as someone is trying to make them out to be. That's fine, but he's taken it too far in my opinion. There comes a point when it is what it is.. I really like spazzxb's content when he and others aren't arguing.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem is Jim was never around. JMOAA

I like that guy better to. I brought the peacekeeper back for a reason.

BringJackBack
01-26-2011, 06:32 PM
I like that guy better to. I brought the peacekeeper back for a reason.

Aha! I am in love with that avatar dude. :cool:

Since86
01-27-2011, 12:27 PM
Just curious: Have you ever coached a basketball team? Have you ever played at a competitive level?

Cause I would strongly disagree with your statements. Coaching a good team is really tough, from both the mental and strategic perspective. That's one of the obvious reasons why there's are so few consistently effective coaches in the NBA or the NCAA levels.


Coaching X's And O's isn't hard. It's the rest of the bull crap that makes the job extremely difficult. Basketball isn't a complicated sport.

When people talk about "experience" it's not some secret you find out in the game. It's the ability to recognize the situation, as you're playing it.

If we were to watch film together, I'm fairly certain you'd be able to watch it on slow-motion and be able to communicate what should happen in each situation. Being able to do it real time, is the problem. That's "experience" it's not actually knowing it.....

Since86
01-27-2011, 12:32 PM
Just don't say I always do something when I don't or try and call me A JOB supporter when I am not and I won't take it personally. I support Larry Bird.

That's cool. You call the rest of us "haters" when we're not, so consider it just returning the favor.

And when you call me a moron, or I should say when you gave the disclaimer "If you don't agree with it, then you're a moron...." (or whatever stupid outclause you thought you had) you have zero room to talk.


It's time to stop playing the victim card.

90'sNBARocked
01-27-2011, 12:48 PM
just blame Jim

The Pacers new slogan

TheDon
02-04-2011, 03:36 PM
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/carmelo-anthony-scores-36-points-while-rest-of-pla,18997/

Carmelo Anthony Scores 36 Points While Rest Of Players Watch NFL Playoffs




DENVER—In an explosive performance Sunday night, small forward Carmelo Anthony hustled all over the court, leaping for rebounds, diving for loose balls, and erupting for 36 points while the rest of the Nuggets and Pacers players watched the exciting conclusion of the AFC Championship game. "If they're going to leave me open beyond the three-point line, I'm going to make those shots every time," said Anthony, who started slowly by missing his first six field goal attempts, but eventually caught his stride as players and coaches huddled around a small courtside television. "If I pick my spots and am patient, I can take over any game." Anthony was eventually ejected when his loudly squeaking basketball shoes distracted a referee, causing him to miss the Jets sacking Ben Roethlisberger in the end zone for a safety.http://o.onionstatic.com/img/icons/terminator.gif



Not to bump a thread about obie, but the people at the onion had a little fun with it making a quick blurb. I didn't think creating another thread just for this was worthwhile. Thought it never hurts to add some humor to the situation. :)

Naptown_Seth
02-05-2011, 12:51 AM
Coaching X's And O's isn't hard. It's the rest of the bull crap that makes the job extremely difficult. Basketball isn't a complicated sport.

When people talk about "experience" it's not some secret you find out in the game. It's the ability to recognize the situation, as you're playing it.

If we were to watch film together, I'm fairly certain you'd be able to watch it on slow-motion and be able to communicate what should happen in each situation. Being able to do it real time, is the problem. That's "experience" it's not actually knowing it.....
This is the point definitely.

My main coaching was only 11-12 year old baseball, but I've found similar experiences, most notably giving a speech.

From the outside, especially given time to review in detail, you can critique quite well and accurately. What was done wrong or right is easy to see. Heck, a speech going poorly is obvious to the audience in real time and even if they aren't trained speakers.

The catch is when you get behind the wheel. Then it gets a lot harder. You don't view things from the outside anymore, and in terms of game coaching things are flying along.

I've always recommended to other coaches that you must have 1-2 key assistants even at the LL baseball level because you can't keep up with it all. You are thinking about the 12 guys on your team AND the 12 on the other. Who's coming up, how to play them, has the other team met the playing time rules...oh, and then all the more detailed baseball strategy and the management of player emotions. This is true with adults too, especially the emotions.



So what this means is that were I asked to suddenly toe the line and call a Pacers game as HC for the night I would be overwhelmed by the task. Knowing what to do is one thing, but knowing it on the fly under the gun from the inside looking out is another.

I'm the guy that sees the choice and can say after the fact if it was good or not, and I don't mean by results but by chances of it working. I'm not the guy that can implement this from the inside looking out.




The one area I disagree with S86...kinda. The Spurs have some pretty smart 5 man game plays which involve multiple decoy plays meant to setup another shot. The one I need to post from the first Pacers/Spurs was a fake baseline cut, passer on the wing pretends this is the play until the last second when he suddenly goes the other way across a high wing pick. Meanwhile the weakside baseline player waited for Solo to rubberneck the baseline action and drift toward a pending goal defense. Once he was focused on that the Spurs player came up and backpicked Dunleavy who was then watching the PnR action and thinking about coming to the lane.

With no Solo to switch because he was distracted by decoy play #1 (baseline cutter) Dun was easily picked when he realized that decoy play #2 (PnR high arc) was really just setting up a pass to his man, who was now safely screened behind Solo's man for the open 3.

And I mean this play included the ball handler (Parker maybe) to fake 100% like he wanted to pass to the cutter first. There was no way he could suddenly cut back to this other PnR that he wasn't even looking to unless he already knew that was the plan. And the weakside action all started before those other plays ended.


Simple in concept - block their guys with your guys, create spacing, move without the ball - but complex in the orchestration of 5 games moving in unison with the same objective.

That's winning ball there.