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PacerHound
01-23-2011, 04:53 PM
Is This Mixed Up or What?


Here are some interesting stats taken off the Pacer web site for this season to date on Posey, McRoberts, and Hansbrough.

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Total game minutes to date:


Posey 684 McRoberts 678 Hansbrough 465

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Games Played In:


Posey 37 McRoberts 32 Hansbrough 30

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Minutes Per Game:


McRoberts 21.2 Posey 18.5 Hansbrough 15.5

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Rebounds Per Game:


McRoberts 5.3 Hansbrough 4 Posey 3.3

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Shooting Percentage:


McRoberts .481 Hansbrough .453 Posey .357

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Points Per Game:


Hansbrough 6.5 McRoberts 6.3 Posey 5.5

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Total Points For the Season:


Posey 203 McRoberts 202 Hansbrough 196

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Questions that come to my mind looking at the stats is why is Posey getting all of these minutes and especially finishing out almost every game. Is he a better shooter? Is he a better scorer (he has scored 7 more points than Hansbrough but in 219 more minutes of playing time)? Does he rebound better? Is he that much better than both Tyler and Josh? What does he do that I do not see that allows him to get all of this extra time on the floor over Tyler in the second half almost every game? And, I might add, as you well know, we have been winning all these games in the second half.


Why finish up the game against Portland without your starting 5 on the floor? The starters took care of business both the first quarter and the third quarter but about half way through the third Jim starts subbing again and from there on out forget a starting 5. Why not get Roy and Tyler both in the game at the same time and for the rest of the game when things are going well with you when you had them in together at the start of the game and during the start of the second half? Another name for "small ball" seems to me to be "losing ball." I guess there is such a thing as matching up but it seems like we are always matching up against the other team rather than them matching up against us.
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ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 05:03 PM
Our small ball lineup only works when Granger is at PF. Posey isn't effective there at all. Until JOB realizes this, we will continue to see Posey at the PF. Small ball is good in small doses with Danny at the PF. Run that when the traditional line up is struggling a bit. But run it with Granger only.

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 05:04 PM
I am pasting what I posted in the last game thread when someone was angry about Posey taking Josh's minutes.


Thats the thing. Posey keeps granger from playing 40+ minutes. To play Mcroberts at the 4 you have to go back to the traditional lineup. Its not Josh vs. Posey because they fill different roles. Mcroberts backs up Hansboros role on this team. you can argue that you want the traditional line up back but that would more than likely mean Hansboro coming back in the game. Wether its a good move Posey is played to maintain the type of offense we run with Granger at the 4. Posey plays because he is the only player other than granger than can fill the small ball 4 role.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 05:09 PM
Read my post above. Posey at the 4 is ineffective. It's pointless to run small ball with him. I'd much rather see a traditional lineup with PG and JMac at the 3 and 4, than see small ball with Posey.

BlueNGold
01-23-2011, 05:14 PM
Our small ball lineup only works when Granger is at PF. Posey isn't effective there at all. Until JOB realizes this, we will continue to see Posey at the PF. Small ball is good in small doses with Danny at the PF. Run that when the traditional line up is struggling a bit. But run it with Granger only.

Nice, concise and 100% accurate.

Small ball is not my preference, but Danny is a big enough SF for it to work pretty well in some situations. In fact, we beat the Celtics early last year with Danny guarding KG.

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 05:40 PM
Read my post above. Posey at the 4 is ineffective. It's pointless to run small ball with him. I'd much rather see a traditional lineup with PG and JMac at the 3 and 4, than see small ball with Posey.

George is in competition with Rush and Dunleavy, so thats really a different discussion. Making the argument that you prefer a traditional line up to Posey small ball (when danny rests) is completely reasonable argument however if the traditional lineup is failing to generate points with Tyler I am doubtful Josh will make much of a difference.

If the traditional lineup is getting the job done, Posey doesn't see the floor. If Hansboro gets the job done Tyler and Granger should take all of the minutes at the 4. I am not against Josh, but realistically its Danny or Tyler that he needs to outplay for minutes. To get minutes, Josh needs to be good enough that we don't need danny at the 4.

This is just my opinion, since we haven't scene foster and Josh play together much. I can't say what would happen for sure, However Foster/Mcroberts looks to be a horrible front-court on offense. If our problem on a particular night is scoring I don't think a Foster/Mcroberts front-court is what you bring into the game.

pacer4ever
01-23-2011, 05:42 PM
George is in competition with Rush and Dunleavy, so thats really a different discussion. Making the argument that you prefer a traditional line up to Posey small ball (when danny rests) is completely reasonable argument however if the traditional lineup is failing to generate points with Tyler I am doubtful Josh will make much of a difference.

If the traditional lineup is getting the job done, Posey doesn't see the floor. If Hansboro gets the job done Tyler and Granger should take all of the minutes at the 4. I am not against Josh, but realistically its Danny or Tyler that he needs to outplay for minutes. To get minutes, Josh needs to be good enough that we don't need danny at the 4.

This is just my opinion, since we haven't scene foster and Josh play together much. I can't say what would happen for sure, However Foster/Mcroberts looks to be a horrible front-court on offense. If our problem on a particular night is scoring I don't think a Foster/Mcroberts front-court is what you bring into the game.
Posey never ggets it done he should never see the floor

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 05:47 PM
Posey never ggets it done he should never see the floor

I could bring statistics to say your wrong, but I am just going let you have your opinion.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 05:51 PM
George is in competition with Rush and Dunleavy, so thats really a different discussion. Making the argument that you prefer a traditional line up to Posey small ball (when danny rests) is completely reasonable argument however if the traditional lineup is failing to generate points with Tyler I am doubtful Josh will make much of a difference.

If the traditional lineup is getting the job done, Posey doesn't see the floor. If Hansboro gets the job done Tyler and Granger should take all of the minutes at the 4. I am not against Josh, but realistically its Danny or Tyler that he needs to outplay for minutes. To get minutes, Josh needs to be good enough that we don't need danny at the 4.

This is just my opinion, since we haven't scene foster and Josh play together much. I can't say what would happen for sure, However Foster/Mcroberts looks to be a horrible front-court on offense. If our problem on a particular night is scoring I don't think a Foster/Mcroberts front-court is what you bring into the game.

The traditional line up doesn't get enough use to see if its failing most the time. Jim is very quick to put in Granger at the 4. Once he does that he doesn't look back. Then when Granger comes out, Posey comes in. Why not go back to the traditional line up then? It can't do any worse than small ball with Posey at the 4.

Danny shouldnt play many minutes at the 4 because we shouldn't use small ball for an extended period of play. Fill the rest of the minutes with Josh and Tyler. I see what your saying when the traditional line up is struggling we go to small ball. And it works with Danny. BUT its a gimmick offense that can't work long. And thats what JOB needs to realize. The traditional line up works better than small ball with Posey. Its that simple.

pacer4ever
01-23-2011, 05:51 PM
I could bring statistics to say your wrong, but I am just going let you have your opinion.

let me see them his great 35% shooting is that it?:laugh: or his great defense on Amare?:laugh:

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 06:00 PM
let me see them his great 35% shooting is that it?:laugh: or his great defense on Amare?:laugh:

I don't want to go there again. Look at my defense of Posey thread. I joined this discussion to point out that even if Posey plays 0 minutes it doesn't mean Josh gets to play. Even though it is the same position Josh cannot do what Posey is brought in to do. Whether Posey should be brought in to do it or not is debatable.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 06:01 PM
I could bring statistics to say your wrong, but I am just going let you have your opinion.

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND2.HTM

Here are some stats from 82games.com There is only one 5 man lineup where Posey is playing the 4 that is in the top 20 5 man lineups that have been used this season.

Our best lineups consists of Granger, Hansbrough and JMac at the 4. And when Granger is at the 4, its in small amounts.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 06:05 PM
I don't want to go there again. Look at my defense of Posey thread. I joined this discussion to point out that even if Posey plays 0 minutes it doesn't mean Josh gets to play. Even though it is the same position Josh cannot do what Posey is brought in to do. Whether Posey should be brought in to do it or not is debatable.

THIS is exactly where people are arguing with you at. IT SHOULDNT BE DONE. Regardless of whether Posey stretches the floor better than JMac and Tyler. Sure he does. But that offense isn't as efficient as the traditional line up!

xIndyFan
01-23-2011, 06:08 PM
Thats the thing. Posey keeps granger from playing 40+ minutes. To play Mcroberts at the 4 you have to go back to the traditional lineup. Its not Josh vs. Posey because they fill different roles. Mcroberts backs up Hansboros role on this team. you can argue that you want the traditional line up back but that would more than likely mean Hansboro coming back in the game. Wether its a good move Posey is played to maintain the type of offense we run with Granger at the 4. Posey plays because he is the only player other than granger than can fill the small ball 4 role.

:iagree: posey sightings are a sign of poor pacer play. not the cause, but the symptom. if the pacers start playing better, posey will play less.

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 06:24 PM
THIS is exactly where people are arguing with you at. IT SHOULDNT BE DONE. Regardless of whether Posey stretches the floor better than JMac and Tyler. Sure he does. But that offense isn't as efficient as the traditional line up!

I had that fight, I am not trying to waste my time doing it again. People shouldn't use words like never and always if they want to have a solid position. This team has recovered from deficits with Posey in the lineup. More than once his three point shooting has gotten us back into games. I have defended Poseys utilization since the New York game and find it commical that people are so upset that he is the 10/11th man that wouldn't even play if the coach thought he had a better option. I don't think you have a slam dunk case that Mcroberts/Foster is more effective than Posey/ Foster. If you think Mcroberts is a better center than Foster, I completely disagree with your opinion. The stats for the entire year don't mean a thing when I am only defending his utilization since Tyler was made starter.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 06:35 PM
I had that fight, I am not trying to waste my time doing it again. People shouldn't use words like never and always if they want to have a solid position. This team has recovered from deficits with Posey in the lineup. More than once his three point shooting has gotten us back into games. I have defended Poseys utilization since the New York game and find it commical that people are so upset that he is the 10/11th man that wouldn't even play if the coach thought he had a better option. I don't think you have a slam dunk case that Mcroberts/Foster is more effective than Posey/ Foster. If you think Mcroberts is a better center than Foster, I completely disagree with your opinion. The stats for the entire year don't mean a thing when I am only defending his utilization since Tyler was made starter.

How many games have we won since then? Thats what it comes down to. Winning and losing. The best winning percentages of 5 man lineups do not involve Posey at the 4. Simple as that.

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 06:40 PM
How many games have we won since then? Thats what it comes down to. Winning and losing. The best winning percentages of 5 man lineups do not involve Posey at the 4. Simple as that.

We lost to Golden state when he had a DNP- CD. You want to blame his utilization for that one? A team does not live and die by the 10th guy in a preferably nine man rotation.

pacer4ever
01-23-2011, 06:44 PM
We lost to Golden state when he had a DNP- CD. You want to blame his utilization for that one?

Roy didnt play

immortality
01-23-2011, 06:49 PM
You guys are getting trolled if you haven't noticed...

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 06:57 PM
Roy didnt play

Just keep in mind I never complained about Posey not playing. I am perfectly. happy with the nine man rotation and Granger and Tyler taking all of the minutes at the 4 on most nights. If Roy starts playing well again we should play less and less small ball. My point is that unless Tyler gets enough minutes to need a rest there aren't minutes there for Josh. If Roy gets his act together then we can play Josh next to him again. Small ball is the effect of having no low post presence.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 06:58 PM
We lost to Golden state when he had a DNP- CD. You want to blame his utilization for that one? A team does not live and die by the 10th guy in a preferably nine man rotation.

JOB doesn't play him like the 9 or 10th guy in the rotation. He plays him as importantly as anyone off the bench because he is the PF when we are in small ball. He gets eaten alive on defense and isn't efficient enough on offense to make small ball work. We are 2-7 since Jim has used more small ball line ups. The GS loss has been the best one of all of them at least. He only played at the very end of the SA game too and guess what, we almost beat SA that night. He also got a DNP against Philly, we won that game. The best games we have played since the increase of small ball is against Philly, Dallas, SA and GS. Two of those games Posey didn't play, one he was in for our last play against SA. Dallas he actually did well. The rest of the game he has gotten good minutes in and we have lost. It comes down to wins and losses. Less Posey equals more wins.

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 07:00 PM
You guys are getting trolled if you haven't noticed...

so are you calling live sports or Pacers forever a troll.

BringJackBack
01-23-2011, 07:02 PM
I don't even know what's going on.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 07:02 PM
Just keep in mind I never complained about Posey not playing. I am perfectly. happy with the nine man rotation and Granger and Tyler taking all of the minutes at the 4 on most nights. If Roy starts playing well again we should play less and less small ball. My point is that unless Tyler gets enough minutes to need a rest there aren't minutes there for Josh. If Roy gets his act together then we can play Josh next to him again. Small ball is the effect of having no low post presence.

The worst part is that Hibbert started to play better in the second half of the Washington game we won. And he played his best along side McRoberts. The small ball was never needed to this extent.

xIndyFan
01-23-2011, 07:13 PM
The worst part is that Hibbert started to play better in the second half of the Washington game we won. And he played his best along side McRoberts. The small ball was never needed to this extent.

pacers are playing a nine man rotation since . . . idk, since SAS, maybe. but it has been pretty consistent. and neither posey or mcbobs has been in it.

PG - collison/one of the J's
SG - dunleavy/rush/george
SF - granger
PF - hansbrough
C - hibbert/foster

mcroberts or sjones is the 4th big in a 3 big rotation. and posey is danny's backup at the 4. if the rotation players do their jobs, nobody else plays. the problems the pacers are having on offense and defense are the fault of the rotation. not the guys that have to come in and clean up the mess.

imawhat
01-23-2011, 07:16 PM
Why is Posey sucking up minutes? Can't teach being a veteran. Sorry Tyler/Josh.

Mackey_Rose
01-23-2011, 07:25 PM
so are you calling live sports or Pacers forever a troll.

In my opinion, it looks like he was referring to you.

Mackey_Rose
01-23-2011, 07:27 PM
How does anybody go from full-time starter to mostly inactive, then get another start out of the blue followed by two more games as an inactive, with no valid reasons for any of the changes?

It's ridiculous.

Mackey_Rose
01-23-2011, 07:36 PM
How does anybody go from full-time starter to mostly inactive, then get another start out of the blue followed by two more games as an inactive, with no valid reasons for any of the changes?

It's ridiculous.

By the way, while I don't expect O'Brien to give the public an explanation for this curiosity, I would expect the player to get one.

xIndyFan
01-23-2011, 07:38 PM
How does anybody go from full-time starter to mostly inactive, then get another start out of the blue followed by two more games as an inactive, with no valid reasons for any of the changes?

It's ridiculous.

not trying to start a fight. jmo, the experiment to see if josh can be a NBA starter/rotation player is over. at least in TPTB's mind. josh has simply not been good enough at something vital. imo, it is his defense and team defense. josh just isn't big and strong enough evidently to defend in the post. i think he has some team defense issues, but not sure. but right now, josh is tied with solo for last in the rotation.

Mackey_Rose
01-23-2011, 07:42 PM
not trying to start a fight. jmo, the experiment to see if josh can be a NBA starter/rotation player is over. at least in TPTB's mind. josh has simply not been good enough at something vital. imo, it is his defense and team defense. josh just isn't big and strong enough evidently to defend in the post. i think he has some team defense issues, but not sure. but right now, josh is tied with solo for last in the rotation.

The fact the his minutes are being eaten up by Hansbrough, Posey, and Granger all make that argument invalid.

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 07:43 PM
pacers are playing a nine man rotation since . . . idk, since SAS, maybe. but it has been pretty consistent. and neither posey or mcbobs has been in it.

PG - collison/one of the J's
SG - dunleavy/rush/george
SF - granger
PF - hansbrough
C - hibbert/foster

mcroberts or sjones is the 4th big in a 3 big rotation. and posey is danny's backup at the 4. if the rotation players do their jobs, nobody else plays. the problems the pacers are having on offense and defense are the fault of the rotation. not the guys that have to come in and clean up the mess.

Tyler took over following the 5 day break we had after the New york game. basically, the same time just clarifying.

Lou's WaHoosiers
01-23-2011, 07:43 PM
Does anyone know if McRoberts is active for tonight's game?

Mackey_Rose
01-23-2011, 07:47 PM
Does anyone know if McRoberts is active for tonight's game?

I know he is inactive.

BRushWithDeath
01-23-2011, 07:56 PM
All the stats say that McRoberts should be starting and Hansbrough should get all backup minutes.

And JOB's love of statistics make it all the more confusing why we went away from that.

It should be an eight man rotation.

Collison getting 28-32 minutes at PG with Price getting the remaining 16-20.

Granger, Rush, and George should get the wing minutes. Each should get 28-34 minutes a night.

Hibbert, McRoberts, and Hansbrough should get the PF/C minutes with each playing 28-34 minutes a night.

Stephenson should dress every night and play any needed PG spot minutes, even though I don't think he is a PG.

Dunleavy should get all the wing spot minutes.

Foster and can have the PF/C spot minutes as needed.

I would give Solomon the final jersey in case of severe foul trouble.

Dahntay and TJ have a case to get the final spot over Solomon, dependent on matchups, but should mostly be inactive.

Posey should always be inactive as he is both our worst wing player and PF. He truly serves no purpose for this team.

Eleazar
01-23-2011, 08:02 PM
To add to this the only time the Pacers were playing well was when McRoberts started and got 25+ minutes a night, and Hansbrough played around 15 minutes a night. You can argue about who should be starting, but without a doubt both of them should be taking up all 48 minutes at the PF position.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 08:11 PM
To add to this the only time the Pacers were playing well was when McRoberts started and got 25+ minutes a night, and Hansbrough played around 15 minutes a night. You can argue about who should be starting, but without a doubt both of them should be taking up all 48 minutes at the PF position.

Remember when there was talk about how the combo of McRoberts and Tyler could be enough at the PF position? I do. The reason it wasn't any more is because of Hibbert's struggles. Hibbert seems to be back on track so go back to the line up that took us to 9-7 please.

Mackey_Rose
01-23-2011, 08:39 PM
not trying to start a fight. jmo, the experiment to see if josh can be a NBA starter/rotation player is over. at least in TPTB's mind. josh has simply not been good enough at something vital. imo, it is his defense and team defense. josh just isn't big and strong enough evidently to defend in the post. i think he has some team defense issues, but not sure. but right now, josh is tied with solo for last in the rotation.


The fact the his minutes are being eaten up by Hansbrough, Posey, and Granger all make that argument invalid.

Furthermore, the guy he replaced in the starting lineup? Troy Murphy.

Need I say more?

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 08:40 PM
Remember when there was talk about how the combo of McRoberts and Tyler could be enough at the PF position? I do. The reason it wasn't any more is because of Hibbert's struggles. Hibbert seems to be back on track so go back to the line up that took us to 9-7 please.

I am just glad to see someone admit Hibbert is the difference. If Hibbert is a strong post preference we don't need Josh to score. If Hibbert can't score we need tyler beside him for his scoring.

BRushWithDeath
01-23-2011, 08:44 PM
I am just glad to see someone admit Hibbert is the difference. If Hibbert is a strong post preference we don't need Josh to score. If Hibbert can't score we need tyler beside him for his scoring.

The issue with that is that while Tyler may score more than Josh individually, the team does not noticeably score more as a unit.

Yet with both Tyler and Josh we score more than with Posey. Weird.

ilive4sports
01-23-2011, 09:28 PM
I am just glad to see someone admit Hibbert is the difference. If Hibbert is a strong post preference we don't need Josh to score. If Hibbert can't score we need tyler beside him for his scoring.

Many people have admitted this. I'm fine with Tyler starting over Josh. But Josh should be backing him up and getting PT rather than playing small with Posey.

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 09:39 PM
Many people have admitted this. I'm fine with Tyler starting over Josh. But Josh should be backing him up and getting PT rather than playing small with Posey.

Thats fine. As I mentioned earlier we haven't seen a Mcroberts/Foster lineup much, so any opinion is just speculation. My expectations is that we would have problems scoring.

Merz
01-24-2011, 12:36 AM
It is not just Posey getting minutes it's also when he gets the minutes. Too many times he has gotten minutes when the game is in the balance. JOB puts him in to spread the floor and open the offense...the only problem is half the time the opposing defense doesn't pay any attention to Posey thus not stretching the floor and the offense often goes stagnant. Someone shooting 30-35% from 3 barely draws attention.

Plus Posey doesn't help the defense or rebounding too much.

Merz
01-24-2011, 12:39 AM
Thats fine. As I mentioned earlier we haven't seen a Mcroberts/Foster lineup much, so any opinion is just speculation. My expectations is that we would have problems scoring.

You back up all your "points" with super important, in the right context stats (while all the rest of us idiots blindly believe what we believe)...and now you're speculating with nothing to back it up??

You can't have it both ways.

Eleazar
01-24-2011, 02:02 PM
Remember when there was talk about how the combo of McRoberts and Tyler could be enough at the PF position? I do. The reason it wasn't any more is because of Hibbert's struggles. Hibbert seems to be back on track so go back to the line up that took us to 9-7 please.

I agree that Hibberts struggles are why this team is struggling, but even with him struggling the combination of McRoberts/Hansbrough is better than McRoberts or Hansbrough. Different situations calls for a different player playing more than the other, but it never should have been one or the other. Also I believe that consistently having someone who can play the post next to Hibbert would have helped him through this struggle than giving Posey the majority of back-up minutes.

Since86
01-24-2011, 02:12 PM
Thats fine. As I mentioned earlier we haven't seen a Mcroberts/Foster lineup much, so any opinion is just speculation. My expectations is that we would have problems scoring.

Well that's fine about your expectations. But reality shows us that even with Posey in the game, the Pacers have problems scoring.

You're disagreeing with one move, for a valid reason, while defending another move that has the exact same problem.

CableKC
01-24-2011, 02:25 PM
I don't want to go there again. Look at my defense of Posey thread. I joined this discussion to point out that even if Posey plays 0 minutes it doesn't mean Josh gets to play. Even though it is the same position Josh cannot do what Posey is brought in to do. Whether Posey should be brought in to do it or not is debatable.
I'd still argue that McBob can be effectively used as a traditional PF and a "stretch Forward" on both the offensive and defensive end. McBob has the ability to be a decent spot up 3pt shooter as Posey so that he can be used as a "stretch Forward". Add in that McBob is probably more mobile, quicker and athletic then Posey...and the only reason why I can see why JO'B wants Posey in is because of his experience.

To me....Small Ball doesn't mean that we have to go with a "smaller" player that the PF spot....it means that we use a Player at the PF spot to stretch the defense out to the perimeter. It just so happens that most of the time in order to go "small ball", we have to use a Wing Player since most Wing Players can hit the 3 ball. To me, McBob can fill that role.

Since86
01-24-2011, 02:31 PM
Josh and Jim must have something going on between them behind the scenes. It's pretty clear, to me anyways, that there has to be a personal thing going on between them.

I'm not saying Jim is just being a dick and keeping him out, just because Jim doesn't like him. I think with how Josh is on the court, how he complains and even how he handles himself towards opponents, that Josh and Jim have had some verbal arguments.

I don't know anything, I'm just speculating, but there has to be more to the story than what we've seen and have been told.

There's no logical explanation to how all this has gone down.

ilive4sports
01-24-2011, 02:47 PM
Josh and Jim must have something going on between them behind the scenes. It's pretty clear, to me anyways, that there has to be a personal thing going on between them.

I'm not saying Jim is just being a dick and keeping him out, just because Jim doesn't like him. I think with how Josh is on the court, how he complains and even how he handles himself towards opponents, that Josh and Jim have had some verbal arguments.

I don't know anything, I'm just speculating, but there has to be more to the story than what we've seen and have been told.

There's no logical explanation to how all this has gone down.

maybe Josh said he doesn't want to be a stretch forward and Jim just wouldn't let that happen.

CableKC
01-24-2011, 02:49 PM
maybe Josh said he doesn't want to be a stretch forward and Jim just wouldn't let that happen.
If JO'B didn't want to let that happen....then he shouldn't have made McBob practice his 3pt shooting over the summer.

ilive4sports
01-24-2011, 02:58 PM
If JO'B didn't want to let that happen....then he shouldn't have made McBob practice his 3pt shooting over the summer.

I think you mis understood my post. I meant Josh didn't want to be a stretch forward and Jim wanted him to be one. Yes Josh worked on his 3 point shooting in the summer, but maybe he would prefer a more natural role which Jim didn't want leading to the benching of McRoberts.

CableKC
01-24-2011, 03:04 PM
I think you mis understood my post. I meant Josh didn't want to be a stretch forward and Jim wanted him to be one. Yes Josh worked on his 3 point shooting in the summer, but maybe he would prefer a more natural role which Jim didn't want leading to the benching of McRoberts.
In all honesty......whether McBob liked it or not.....JO'B pushing McBob to work on his 3pt shooting skills is probably one of the better things that JO'B has asked McBob to do.

Purely from a Career POV....having a Big Man that can occassionally hit a 3pt shot is a rather unique and very valuable skill to have that would differentiate McBob from the field of other athletic PFs that can do nothing other then jump out of the arena.

xIndyFan
01-24-2011, 03:18 PM
i think maybe josh can't play. or at least he cannot do something that the pacers need the PF to do. my guess is individual defense. josh doesn't seem big and strong enough to be a good individual defender. and based on the last couple of games i've seen josh play, his team defense is shaky also. add that to a guy that really doesn't have a go to offensive move, and you've got a guy stuck on the bench.

the good thing is both of these deficiencies can be corrected. one in the weight room and the other in practice and study. josh can be a rotation player, but it just doesn't look like he's there yet.

Since86
01-24-2011, 03:28 PM
When James Posey is your backup, Mike Dunleavy is your starting 2guard, and Troy Murphy was Jim's wet dream for 3 seasons, defense shouldn't even be brought up as to a reason as to why a player isn't playing.

I mean seriously, Posey was guarding Joel P. against Portland Sat. night.......

Mackey_Rose
01-24-2011, 06:04 PM
i think maybe josh can't play. or at least he cannot do something that the pacers need the PF to do. my guess is individual defense. josh doesn't seem big and strong enough to be a good individual defender. and based on the last couple of games i've seen josh play, his team defense is shaky also. add that to a guy that really doesn't have a go to offensive move, and you've got a guy stuck on the bench.

the good thing is both of these deficiencies can be corrected. one in the weight room and the other in practice and study. josh can be a rotation player, but it just doesn't look like he's there yet.

You keep saying the reason he was taken out of he rotation is his defense, but how does that make sense when all the guys taking his minutes are worse defenders?

Hicks
01-24-2011, 06:11 PM
I'm not convinced he's a better defender than Tyler, though we obviously agree with regards to James Posey.

Eleazar
01-25-2011, 03:31 PM
In all honesty......whether McBob liked it or not.....JO'B pushing McBob to work on his 3pt shooting skills is probably one of the better things that JO'B has asked McBob to do.

Purely from a Career POV....having a Big Man that can occassionally hit a 3pt shot is a rather unique and very valuable skill to have that would differentiate McBob from the field of other athletic PFs that can do nothing other then jump out of the arena.

It might be something that is nice to have, but I can guarantee he would be much better off by shooting mid-range shots. No team will care if he can shoot the 3 if he can't shoot from mid-range, and isn't much of a low post threat. Lets be honest the first and most important thing for a PF on offense is his post play, the second is his mid-range play, and anything beyond that is just icing on the cake. So when teams look for a PF they won't care that he can shoot the 3 if he can't score well from anywhere else.

clownskull
01-25-2011, 03:53 PM
It might be something that is nice to have, but I can guarantee he would be much better off by shooting mid-range shots. No team will care if he can shoot the 3 if he can't shoot from mid-range, and isn't much of a low post threat. Lets be honest the first and most important thing for a PF on offense is his post play, the second is his mid-range play, and anything beyond that is just icing on the cake. So when teams look for a PF they won't care that he can shoot the 3 if he can't score well from anywhere else.

while i agree with your thoughts on what is more important about the pf spot, i strongly suspect obie disagrees completely.
i suspect he believes being a pf that can hit from outside is far more important.

i can't help but think bird must have talked to obie about playing hans more since tyler was not long ago just rotting on the bench with dnp-cd's while posey was stretching the floor with games of 20+ minutes and often getting us about 3 points and a couple of rebounds.
i remember the wells tweet where obie apparently talked about how we haven't had much interior scoring in the last couple of months. and yet he was playing posey at the 4 spot when josh wasn't. posey has taken 7 foul shots this season. tyler made that many in just one effing game already. how coach cannot see situation is beyond baffling to me.

Eleazar
01-25-2011, 04:23 PM
while i agree with your thoughts on what is more important about the pf spot, i strongly suspect obie disagrees completely.
i suspect he believes being a pf that can hit from outside is far more important.

i can't help but think bird must have talked to obie about playing hans more since tyler was not long ago just rotting on the bench with dnp-cd's while posey was stretching the floor with games of 20+ minutes and often getting us about 3 points and a couple of rebounds.
i remember the wells tweet where obie apparently talked about how we haven't had much interior scoring in the last couple of months. and yet he was playing posey at the 4 spot when josh wasn't. posey has taken 7 foul shots this season. tyler made that many in just one effing game already. how coach cannot see situation is beyond baffling to me.

I completely agree. It seems to me that JOB is always the last person to realize what is best.

xIndyFan
01-25-2011, 05:21 PM
You keep saying the reason he was taken out of he rotation is his defense, but how does that make sense when all the guys taking his minutes are worse defenders?

who are all the guys you are talking about??

jeff foster is a much much better defender, imo.

james posey is a much better team defender, not nearly as good off the ball and pick 'em on the ball against other bigs.

tyler hansbrough is about the same on team defense, worse off the ball and pick 'em in the post. tyler is stronger, but easier to shoot over. tyler is a superior rebounder, especially offensive, and a much much much better offensive player.

disclaimer: i do not have any game tapes of the early part of the season when josh was starting. so i cannot go back and look at those games to see if my memory is faulty or not. the GSW game wasn't much help has biedrens [sp?] and josh spent most of the time off the ball. the one time biedrens got josh in the post, he just went thru him like i was guarding him instead of josh. it was pretty poor effort on josh's part. but it was just one time. but josh was overpowered instead of tricked.

that is my belief that josh lacks the size and strength to compete with most [if not all] NBA PF's. at least the rotation guys on any good team. now i can't say that with any certainty without going back and checking game tapes where josh played significant minutes.