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View Full Version : GSW game was enjoyable



Naptown_Seth
01-20-2011, 10:00 PM
Yes I think that pulling George for Rush on Ellis late was a mistake and yes I would have had Josh as the lob into guy for the final play.

Sure there were other things I still don't like in general.

But for all the poor plays by AJ and Josh, and to a lesser extent some of the other guys, it was nice to be concerned with whether Rush or George was who you needed at the moment, or whether AJ needed to come out for a bit or push through his struggles.

I know Roy being out was part of it, but I just want to give someone, JOB or whomever, credit for putting the product on the floor I want to watch. After getting to a point where I almost root against the team for fear of having things limp along just enough to stay the same, it was nice to feel the emotional pull back into the team and get a bit vested in the action.


It was nice to be really upset that Ellis hit the shot and wish that Rush could have stopped him. To just be pulling for the kids because that's who was playing.

I really would like to think that this is a sign of things to come. Who cares if AJ, Roy, Rush, Tyler, Josh or PG24 crap out in 2-3 years, you gotta take that ride with them and find out. For me that's always been the sales pitch for this transition team.

Watching to see the fluctuation and hopefully the improvement of the games from these guys is what keeps me still tuning in. I sure hope JOB realizes how much fans like myself appreciated it.

DGPR
01-20-2011, 10:18 PM
I think it was the 4th quarter when George drove into the lane, stopped, and knocked down a fadeaway bunny with a hand in his face. That is the kind of stuff I like to see from him, a no fear "I'm going to get my shot no matter what" kind of attitude. It's the confidence from George, or playing like a wildman in Hansbrough, or Hibbert swatting a shot in the lane that gets me pumped. It's a much better high than watching Posey set up a tent and hibatchi at the 3 point line, or watching Solo do something great and then go invisible for long periods of time. Nothing makes my head hurt more than seeing that stupid look on Ford's face when he does something boneheaded which is about every other play on average.

1984
01-20-2011, 10:21 PM
I'd rather watch the Pacers win a defensive struggle.

I just can't enjoy a loss.

Not at this point.

Not where we are now.

Sookie
01-20-2011, 11:05 PM
I really hope JOB doesn't jerk Josh and AJ around again. They played badly..but let them get out their cobwebs. Confidence and not knowing how to fit in was a major reason for it. Let them play through it.

And for as bad as they were, they still did have some good moments. Josh had some good dunks and AJ scored 5 points in the 8-0 run that gave the Pacers the lead in the third quarter.

Let them play, let all the young guys play and grow as a unit. Plzkaythx.

vnzla81
01-20-2011, 11:22 PM
I feel the same way, I felt better yesterday about the team than when they won that NO game, I just wish people understand what we really want to see, is not about wins anymore, it should be about letting the young players grow and find out what we have.

Merz
01-20-2011, 11:48 PM
I agree for the most part...

except I really do care if they crap out or not.

Bball
01-20-2011, 11:56 PM
I agree for the most part...

except I really do care if they crap out or not.


You mean like the guy in your avatar?....

Unclebuck
01-21-2011, 09:15 AM
I sure hope JOB realizes how much fans like myself appreciated it.

Should a coach even consider who the fans want to play. I sure hope that never enters a coaches mind. I sure would never hire a coach if that thought ever entered his mind.

owl
01-21-2011, 09:31 AM
OB played them because he thought it was his best chance to win. The vets the Pacers have, other than Danny, are not very good.

pacergod2
01-21-2011, 09:54 AM
Should a coach even consider who the fans want to play. I sure hope that never enters a coaches mind. I sure would never hire a coach if that thought ever entered his mind.

I agree, UB. I just think it goes a little bit more "big picture" with the coach's decisions. These kids are going to be the ones that if you continue coaching for two or three years, will be your rotational players. If you don't get them acclimated sooner than later, you will have those "deer in the headlights" moments like we saw out of Price's ball handling two nights ago, just two years from now.

I loved seeing those guys out there. They are SO much more dynamic than the vets. I love Foster. Always have, so I don't mind because he is setting a great example. Same with Posey and Dun. But their minutes should stay limited. Posey shows great tenacity and Dun moves so well without the ball. They all play fundamentally solid basketball and are great to show the young guys how to play. McRoberts dunks and blocked shot early in the game were outstanding. Who else would we get plays like that from on this roster? Nobody. George is so long and athletic. He has a great feel for the game and gets to the rim with relative ease. Rush got beat on that last play, but the difference in his defense was that his back foot slipped. He still got a hand up in the shooters way, but would have made the shot more contested if he hasn't slipped. Ellis just made a great shot. It was what a game winner looks like. You remember what those look like Danny? Cause I have only seen bad fadeaway threes late in games from you recently. I did like Danny's play. He dogged it on several possession which gets under my skin a bit. He is our best player.

I watched the GS game last night after DVRing it. I really thought we played a much better game than they did. We just had a couple of really bad stretches of turnovers. Outside of about three runs on their part, one of which was spurred by 3 or 4 straight turnovers by Granger, we really outplayed them I thought. I loved seeing Hansborough and McRoberts playing together. You can see the youthful mistakes, but it was nice seeing them play through most of them. Then we went small down the stretch, AGAIN. I don't care what anybody says, there is no reason we should go small down the stretch. Maybe middle to late third quarter. Maybe start of the fourth. When you are playing backups, ok, but not in situations where you need big rebounds to seal wins. Sorry. I really like that we have gone to a more low-post-centric offense. We are establishing more possessions from the low post than we have all season. I think it helps with our ball movement and we are getting a lot more slashing/cutting going on around picks. We have had this, but doing so much of the work from the high post had gotten us too one dimensional and easy to defend on the perimeter. We are establishing Hans and McRoberts and even George in the post. It created a lot of opportunity for us by spreading the court low. It also opens up the driving lanes better which helps Collison a lot. I really like the changes that O'Brien has made to the offense. These were things that I (and many others) had been saying for a while. I love the high post offense capability. I lvoe our low post offense capability. Mixing it up more gives us less predictability, and keeps the defense on their heels. The changes have really helped Collison and I think it is easier on the young guys, who are more used to this type of offense.

imawhat
01-21-2011, 11:57 AM
I enjoyed the Golden State rotations more than any other game this season. I wish Roy had played.

The team played much better as soon as AJ entered the game. It definitely didn't show up in the stats but our ball movement was as good as it's been this season when he was playing. I think he might be the best point guard for this team, and like others have said, his absence in games is mind boggling.

Our problem was that we played terrible defense and then left several players in the game when they were gassed (Foster). I'm actually surprised we kept it close.

Sookie
01-21-2011, 12:17 PM
Should a coach even consider who the fans want to play. I sure hope that never enters a coaches mind. I sure would never hire a coach if that thought ever entered his mind.

Isn't it a business..entertainment?

If we aren't going to win using players that fans don't want to see, wouldn't you play players that fans do want to see?

vnzla81
01-21-2011, 12:23 PM
Isn't it a business..entertainment?

If we aren't going to win using players that fans don't want to see, wouldn't you play players that fans do want to see?

I agree with you here, the issue that some people are going to see with this is that in their minds you are not playing to win, is kind of like if you develop your young players and don't play your vets you are playing to lose.(that is how they see it)

TinManJoshua
01-21-2011, 02:48 PM
Isn't it a business..entertainment?

If we aren't going to win using players that fans don't want to see, wouldn't you play players that fans do want to see?

That shouldn't be the motivation. If you aren't winning, it's time to try something new.

Lineup changes shouldn't come on the whim of emotionally invested watchers.

TinManJoshua
01-21-2011, 02:51 PM
I agree with you here, the issue that some people are going to see with this is that in their minds you are not playing to win, is kind of like if you develop your young players and don't play your vets you are playing to lose.(that is how they see it)

If your vets are terrible, you're not doing any harm playing the youth. However, you should be playing the youth because they're showing more competence than the vets, not because the dudes in row 106 just started a chant for one of the youngsters.

Unclebuck
01-21-2011, 02:59 PM
Isn't it a business..entertainment?

If we aren't going to win using players that fans don't want to see, wouldn't you play players that fans do want to see?

if I was running an NBA franchise and my coach ever even for one second considered what the fans wanted in regards to the lineup - I would fire that coach on the spot, no questions asked.

So if I am a GM and after a game I ask my coach, so why did you play a certain player and the coach says because I thought and it seemed as though the fans wanted him to play.

First of all which fans decide, I mean do we take a poll or just go by a few loudmouths attending the game.

There is hardly any agreement in this forum about who should be playing and you expect the coach to follow the fans wishes - how in the heck does he or can he know the fans wishes.
And the fact of the matter is most fans are stupid

vnzla81
01-21-2011, 03:03 PM
if I was running an NBA rfranchise and my coach ever even for one second considered what the fans wanted in regards to the lineup - I would fire that coach on the spot no questions asked.

So if I am a GM and after a game I ask my coach, so why did you play a certain player and the coach says because I thought and it seemed as though the fans wanted him to play.

First of all which fans decide, I mean do we take a poll or just go back a few loudmouths attending the game.

Now I know why you like Jim so much,because he plays the player the fans dislike the most, now it makes sence...

Sookie
01-21-2011, 03:16 PM
if I was running an NBA franchise and my coach ever even for one second considered what the fans wanted in regards to the lineup - I would fire that coach on the spot, no questions asked.

So if I am a GM and after a game I ask my coach, so why did you play a certain player and the coach says because I thought and it seemed as though the fans wanted him to play.

First of all which fans decide, I mean do we take a poll or just go by a few loudmouths attending the game.

There is hardly any agreement in this forum about who should be playing and you expect the coach to follow the fans wishes - how in the heck does he or can he know the fans wishes.
And the fact of the matter is most fans are stupid

I don't think it's letting the fans decide, so much as an added benifit to playing certain players.

Like for example, playing Hans earlier this season. It was a good move because we were struggling and needed some scoring. We also should be developing the younger guys. Hans helps us win more than Posey does, and the fans want to see Hans play.

It's just another positive to playing the younger guys. For the most part they are better than the alternative (with the exception of Dun vs Lance and Solo vs Foster) we should be letting these guys learn the NBA game (because what's the point in having them if they don't) and a majority of the fans want to see them.

Unclebuck
01-21-2011, 04:02 PM
Now I know why you like Jim so much,because he plays the player the fans dislike the most, now it makes sence...

Really? Have you missed my point entirely or just been sarcastic?

vnzla81
01-21-2011, 04:22 PM
Really? Have you missed my point entirely or just been sarcastic?

Sarcastic is my second name :-p

McKeyFan
01-21-2011, 04:54 PM
I'll swap Obie never listening to the fans with Larry doing what the fans want. Soon.

PacerHound
01-21-2011, 06:03 PM
Should a coach even consider who the fans want to play. I sure hope that never enters a coaches mind. I sure would never hire a coach if that thought ever entered his mind.

That is why no fan should ever give it a second thought in walking away from a team - they (the organization) don't care about the fans.

Now I understand what UB is saying but I also see it from the fan's point of view. That is why as soon as Hansbrough is gone I'm gone because I realize the Pacers could care less about me or anyother fan. (They do, however, like what's in the billfold.)

cchobot
01-21-2011, 06:49 PM
The team played much better as soon as AJ entered the game. It definitely didn't show up in the stats but our ball movement was as good as it's been this season when he was playing.



It did kind of show up in the stats, his +/- was +20 ... So the team played pretty well while he was in there on that night.

TinManJoshua
01-21-2011, 06:51 PM
That is why no fan should ever give it a second thought in walking away from a team - they (the organization) don't care about the fans.

Now I understand what UB is saying but I also see it from the fan's point of view. That is why as soon as Hansbrough is gone I'm gone because I realize the Pacers could care less about me or anyother fan. (They do, however, like what's in the billfold.)

There's a HUGE difference between not caring about the fans and not taking their opinion seriously. There's a reason they're fans and not coaches, or GMs.

xIndyFan
01-21-2011, 08:38 PM
There's a HUGE difference between not caring about the fans and not taking their opinion seriously. There's a reason they're fans and not coaches, or GMs.

:iagree: listening to the fans and making decisions based on their wants ------> las vegas pacers

McKeyFan
01-21-2011, 08:40 PM
Fans lack technical expertise. But they do have common sense, which our head coach severely lacks.

Naptown_Seth
01-21-2011, 11:47 PM
Should a coach even consider who the fans want to play. I sure hope that never enters a coaches mind. I sure would never hire a coach if that thought ever entered his mind.
Yeah, pretty much if you are in the entertainment business the #1 thing you should live by is ignoring what the fans hate. Boos are always a good sign that you're going to keep the house packed show after show.


And the thing is that I'm saying that I'm willing to accept a tough road loss as part of a process of development. That's something the coach 100% should consider, as should Bird, Morway and anyone getting paid by the fans.


I mean Buck I realize you buying out 10 full sections of seats every night makes it possible to ignore fan interest, but that still leaves 1-2 other seats empty and ratings lower. So they should still worry a little bit out why we aren't going to or watching games.


I was just trying to give credit where I thought it was due since I always gripe when the kids get benched for the short term vets. Plus so far you and JOB are well below .500 with the "this is working fine, the fans are wrong" angle.

If what they are doing IS NOT winning games AND IS NOT making fans happy, I'd say that plan is a hellava lot more on the Las Vegas Pacers track than playing Price, Josh and George is.

In fact explain to me how playing Ford and Posey big minutes, or any of the previous choices from years past, in LOSING SEASONS to empty arenas was part of keeping the team financially stable and sound.


Ironically this comes following the game where our own D_C is complaining that the Warriors fans will come watch anything which means the ownership can run the team like crap, ie keep making losing choices. So it sounds like to me if you can do something that makes the fans happy, even if it results in losses, then you are set for life as an owner.

And that sounds like doing what the fans want is a pretty big deal.



The confusion here is between full-on strategy and just playing the people the fans want to see....unless one of you wants to make the pathetic case that Ford and Posey sell tickets.

It just sounds ridiculous all this defending the previous situation. FACTS ARE they aren't selling well following the same plan going into year 4. So maybe the hardcore fans are on to something. At the very least they can't be more wrong. Oh no, we played Price and now the team is ending at 33 wins instead of 35 wins and that means the team will have to move.

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Naptown_Seth
01-22-2011, 12:12 AM
There's a HUGE difference between not caring about the fans and not taking their opinion seriously. There's a reason they're fans and not coaches, or GMs.
And that reason is because there are only 30 positions available, having contacts makes a massive difference in getting those jobs, and a lot of people pursue other interests as a career.


For the fail...
http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Crowds-James-Surowiecki/dp/0385721706/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295672713&sr=1-1

And there is a reason why Surowiecki is a published author on the subject and you are not, right.

Bball
01-22-2011, 12:57 AM
:iagree: listening to the fans and making decisions based on their wants ------> las vegas pacers

Ignoring the fans when the fans have a point ------> Las Vegas Pacers

TinManJoshua
01-22-2011, 11:12 AM
And there is a reason why Surowiecki is a published author on the subject and you are not, right.

Yeah, probably.

I'm not saying that the fans are always wrong and Obie is right. Far from it.

I'm saying that fans are susceptible to a number of things. From flavors of the week, demanding players be traded after a single poor performance, to exalting players based on performances at a lower-playing level. Fan opinion can get real messy.

If there is a universal "truth" that the fans want, logic should follow that coach sees the same thing. He'll give them what they want, but through(hopefully) different motivations than "the fans wanted it". It should be something like "he's getting it in practice" or "he's been playing outstanding when he's on the floor, I want to see how he does with more minutes" or "he's not playing like a starter, so until I see more effort from him he's coming off the bench".

I tend to agree with what Mckeyfan said.

SMosley21
01-22-2011, 11:32 AM
OB played them because he thought it was his best chance to win. The vets the Pacers have, other than Danny, are not very good.

Hopefully true. If that is true, it just boggles the mind that it took him this long to figure that out.

Anthem
01-22-2011, 01:58 PM
I'm saying that fans are susceptible to a number of things. From flavors of the week, demanding players be traded after a single poor performance, to exalting players based on performances at a lower-playing level. Fan opinion can get real messy.
in theory, you're not wrong. But this has nothing to do with flavor of the week. This has been a consistent theme for three years: "If we're playing for the future, show us the future. Don't show us Rasho over Roy in the last game of the season when we all know Rasho's not coming back. Don't play TJ over AJ when they're a wash at worst. And don't give us a Solo/Posey front court when you've got Josh/Tyler on the bench."

The GS rotation is what the board was unanimously asking for the first game of the season.

TinManJoshua
01-22-2011, 04:59 PM
in theory, you're not wrong. But this has nothing to do with flavor of the week. This has been a consistent theme for three years: "If we're playing for the future, show us the future. Don't show us Rasho over Roy in the last game of the season when we all know Rasho's not coming back. Don't play TJ over AJ when they're a wash at worst. And don't give us a Solo/Posey front court when you've got Josh/Tyler on the bench."

The GS rotation is what the board was unanimously asking for the first game of the season.

I am certainly arguing from a theoretical standpoint. I even said that I agreed that O'Brien's decisions or logic don't pass the common sense test. I mean, just look at my mood.