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Peck
01-20-2011, 03:14 AM
Let's be honest here from a PacersDigest standpoint this pretty much was a dream come true.

No T.J. Ford, no James Posey and no Solomon Jones.

He started both Tyler & Josh and Paul George got some work.

So from that stand point really nobody should complain much about Jim's player selection. Of course there is always the point of inconsistency but frankly we are just so bad that one has to give him some passes on this.

However the reality is we just lost to the Golden State Warriors after we lost to the L.A. Clippers. Now no offense to either team as they are both improved but the fact is that losing to either team did not come as a surprise and that is the problem.

We are just not a very talented team, in all honesty and at this point in time I'm throwing my hands up in the air and saying I have no idea how to get to the point of being more talented.

Obviously drafting in the mid teens every year will give you a chance to get a good player (see Granger) but it really is not going to give you a chance to get a special player (see Griffin). But drafting a top 10 player is no guarantee of getting a special player either (see Dunleavy).

Trades are good but what team is going to part with a star player for what little we have and in all honesty would we have to trade away so much talent that what little we have here is left to help the good player when he get's here.

However I'm coming more and more to the belief that we are just going to let all of these expiring contracts expire and frankly that just depresses the living crap out of me. If we don't use them as the trade items then we will have nothing to trade away to get anything with.

Sorry folks this is not going to be a bright and shiny post at all.

I keep reading statement that the team is headed in the right direction and frankly I want to hit a wall when I read that anymore. What does that even mean? Does anyone truly believe that the group of players we have right now, you know the ones who can not beat the Warriors, Clippers, Bucks, Hawks, Bulls, etc. of the league is going to somehow morph into a team that will compete for a title in 2-3 years?

If you do then you have more faith than I do.

Hell I don't even blame O'Brien anymore (at this point in time what good would that do) beyond his player rotations and style of play.

But let me assure you Jim O'Brien does not cause Jeff Foster to miss a point blank layup or Mike Dunleavy to lay up some puffy soft shot to be swatted off of the board by a charging defender.

Yes I want a new coach just like most of you but that new coach is still going to have to have some new talent as well or we will once again be arguing over what 10th man should get more min. so we can stop the losing.

Believe it or not this is my fourth draft and this is the most optimistic and non depressing of the four. I had an odd thoughts all typed up and ready to send over to the front page and just deleted it because even I didn't like the tone of the post.

Yes losing is getting to me, to much I freely admit. But I invest a lot of time into following the club so to be once again at the half way part of the season (almost anyway) and knowing we are not going anywhere is just disheartening. I am now pretty much convinced that by this time next week we will be looking up at both the Bobcats and the Bucks putting us once again at 10th in the East.

If I could say that I saw a light at the end of the tunnel I would be happy to do so, but right now things look pretty bleak.

I am open to anything to improve the club now.

CableKC
01-20-2011, 03:32 AM
I have no problem with losing IF we continue to play the same lineup ( with the addition of Hibbert ) that we played in the Warriors game. I've said that the blame for the way that we have been playing is a combination of poor Coaching and the overall lack of talent on the roster.

I don't care about making the Playoffs....I care about giving AJ, PG and Hansbrough some burn so that they don't make mistakes like they are making now NEXT SEASON when they are expected to play and MORE IMPORTANTLY because DC/BRush/Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert/AJ/PG have to develop chemistry and trust each other sooner rather then later. That is why I ( and many others here on PD ) were stunned that JO'B stuck with the youngins' and didn't use Solo, Posey or TJ AT ALL.

Bball
01-20-2011, 03:38 AM
Give these players a coach they will go to war for. A coach that is a straight shooter... his words and actions line up. A coach that believes in fundamentals and values each possession. A coach that has his players' backs. A coach that is honest... if he says he wants defense first then every action should indicate that.

A coach that is willing to stick with a rotation. A coach that is willing to develop young players on a team that is going nowhere without them and be consistent with them along the way. You don't have to play young players 38 mins a game... but it shouldn't be too hard to find consistent minutes for them.

Give the same amount of slack to all players. Everyone is equal.

Get a coach that respects the game.

Do that and then evaluate the players. As long as they don't care for the coach let alone understand what mix and match weirdness he's coming up with next, especially after 4 years of this insanity, then it's not hard to see why they simply don't have the heart to play the game the right way game in and game out. ...And it doesn't help when your coach doesn't necessarily preach playing the game the right way! And for what it's worth... with this willy nilly system the Pacers run on offense, when they do need one big basket in the closing seconds it's not a thing of beauty and poetry in motion on the court instead it's a feaking Chinese fire drill... but I digress....

You could argue the new players aren't on their 4th year of Capt Contradiction.... but they are surrounded by players who are... and they have to have an attitude of WTF by now. An attitude that is permeating the entire team at this point.

rexnom
01-20-2011, 03:40 AM
Wait. Are you doubting whether these guys play hard for Obie? I think that that's one thing you definitely can't criticize him on.

Bball
01-20-2011, 03:42 AM
Wait. Are you doubting whether these guys play hard for Obie? I think that that's one thing you definitely can't criticize him on.

They might go thru the motions... but I don't think they play hard for him...

I do think they try, but I think he's worn them down and they just don't have the heart for it.

imawhat
01-20-2011, 04:05 AM
You don't know what is wrong? This is practically a carbon copy of the past three seasons.

Our defense is starting to suck, just like it did at this time the past three seasons. Our overall effort is disappearing, a real night/day difference from early in the season.

We have enough talent to beat any team in the league; I don't think that's a good excuse.

The Rocker
01-20-2011, 04:13 AM
we need Z-BO

ilive4sports
01-20-2011, 04:20 AM
There is a lack of developed talent on this team right now. I mean, Granger and Collison are the only two who are legit starters in the NBA. November Hibbert was, but hes got to get back to that.

With that said, we do have some undeveloped talent that can really save this franchise. I don't care what any of these Granger haters say, the guy is a stud. He is undervalued on here IMO. He isn't the most clutch player in the league by any means, but damnit, he comes up with some good buckets in the 4th quarter. Buzzer beaters aren't the only definition of clutch... He can drive and we saw that tonight. He also can create. I saw some great passes from Danny tonight, he could have had a triple double tonight if some shots fell or if his teammates paid better attention. And we all know he can shoot lights out. He has the ability to take over games. We would never get fair value for that.

This doesn't mean that Granger has to be the sole go to guy. Why the hell are we dependent on one guy so much? There are very few players in the league that you can depend on like that. We need to build a team with Granger, rather than around Granger. I do think we have started that too.

Collison is looking more and more like what we hoped when we got him (for TROY MURPHY NO LESS HAHA). He can be the stud PG that will lead us for a long time. Now that he has more freedom in the offense we are seeing that. He and Granger work well together and the offense has looked way better this month with him leading it.

George, this guy may just be it. I love his game. Every night he does something positive for this club. He is still raw, but at times you wouldn't know it. The kid is smart. I see him make heads up plays all the time. He has work to do, but I see some Tracy McGrady in him. He can attack the basket and has a great jumper. Plus he is bigger yet is still fast. He played Monta Ellis, one of the fastest guys in the league, pretty damn well tonight. He can guard SG's in this league. If he keeps working and developing I think any team in the NBA would be happy to have a combo of Collison, George, Granger at the 1,2,3 spots.

Then we have Roy Hibbert. You can't help but feel bad for him right now. He has worked so hard for this team. I hate reading all these posts about giving up on the guy. We need to be patient with him. One, big men take more time to develop than a small forward. Two, he completely changed his body this off season. He is still learning to play with how he is built now. I do think he needs to strengthen his legs and his core more. That will allow him to push back at the defenders easier. But we know he has the talent and skill to be pretty good for us. His shot isn't falling right now and he's reverting to his past ways, its only natural. We gotta stick with him though. I bet by the end of the season he is near that November level he was playing at.

Then there is this huge gap at the 4. Hansbrough or McBob aren't the answer there. I like both those guys, but they are bench guys. We need a 4 so badly, but we can't give up any of the guys I went in depth on to get this 4 or else we are moving laterally. Dealing Granger for Favors and a #1 will not makes us a better team. And it definitely wouldnt happen any time soon. There is just too much uncertainty in that deal for me to like. We need to package our expirings and a draft pick for someone that could take pressure off Hibbert and run the pick n roll with Collison. I've been reading some posts about David West and I would absolutely love getting him.

I honestly think our lack of a PF is what is really killing this team. And JOB... sorry I had to. But there is just so much to benefit from adding a PF to this group that it has to be done. West has a player option for next season and I doubt he takes it. We need to throw some serious money at this guy.

A lineup of Collison, George, Granger, West, Hibbert can be pretty damn good. And having guys like Rush, Hansbrough, Price, JMac and maybe Stephenson(if he develops and all, yes its a big if) can be a good bench. Add in a coach with a better offensive scheme, this team would make noise in the NBA.

There are three big things that are keeping this franchise down right now. Our talent is still developing. We need an answer at PF. And we have JOB as our head coach. Trading away our developing talent or Granger for a PF really won't help us (if its about an even trade that is). Hell we traded Troy Murphy for Darren Collison. Why can't we trade a combo of Ford, Dunleavy and a pick for a good PF?

As for this season, add Hibbert to the lineup we saw tonight and just keep at it. It will let everyone who needs to develop actually develop. I really think Paul George is going to be special. I think he is going to do wonders for this franchise as he develops alongside Collison, Granger and Hibbert. Just bring in a PF Larry. Please, I'm begging you, bring in a PF! And fire the coach.

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 05:23 AM
I never expected much from this season. Most people didn't expect much from the team this season. My hope was a .500 record and the playoffs. I do, however believe that good players play to win so I have always been against tanking.(second half of the season talking point the last couple of years). You have to get Lucky to get a Blake griffin, you can have a horrible team for 10 years and never get a shot at a player like him. We could have used a mid round pick and drafted Rondo instead of Shawn Williams, that would have made a big difference in this team. You don't need to be horrible for a decade hoping the draft gods will save you to build a good team.

I believe Larry has done a good job with this team with the limited resources he has at his disposal. Everything the team has been working on for years is about to come to a critical point . Larry will be, for the first time, unshackled from our past. This is the summer that I think we will finally be past the financial damage of the brawl era. Remember Larry got us Collison for Troy Murphy so don't get overly depressed at least until Larry has had the chance to play his hand. This season is all about the future, however I want our team growing in an environment where they are fighting to win. We play good defense we play most teams close we are very young and we are about to have a lot of financial flexibility . For now, take comfort in knowing we aren't the Cavaliers.

Also I hope the Pacers digest dream lineup contains our starting Center. I hope this post comes across as meant but I am just suggesting you find optimism in the unpredictable future to help deal with the present frustrations. The team is getting better , may not be as fast as we would like but the team is definitely improving.

indy
Let's be honest here from a PacersDigest standpoint this pretty much was a dream come true.

No T.J. Ford, no James Posey and no Solomon Jones.

He started both Tyler & Josh and Paul George got some work.

So from that stand point really nobody should complain much about Jim's player selection. Of course there is always the point of inconsistency but frankly we are just so bad that one has to give him some passes on this.

However the reality is we just lost to the Golden State Warriors after we lost to the L.A. Clippers. Now no offense to either team as they are both improved but the fact is that losing to either team did not come as a surprise and that is the problem.

We are just not a very talented team, in all honesty and at this point in time I'm throwing my hands up in the air and saying I have no idea how to get to the point of being more talented.

Obviously drafting in the mid teens every year will give you a chance to get a good player (see Granger) but it really is not going to give you a chance to get a special player (see Griffin). But drafting a top 10 player is no guarantee of getting a special player either (see Dunleavy).

Trades are good but what team is going to part with a star player for what little we have and in all honesty would we have to trade away so much talent that what little we have here is left to help the good player when he get's here.

However I'm coming more and more to the belief that we are just going to let all of these expiring contracts expire and frankly that just depresses the living crap out of me. If we don't use them as the trade items then we will have nothing to trade away to get anything with.

Sorry folks this is not going to be a bright and shiny post at all.

I keep reading statement that the team is headed in the right direction and frankly I want to hit a wall when I read that anymore. What does that even mean? Does anyone truly believe that the group of players we have right now, you know the ones who can not beat the Warriors, Clippers, Bucks, Hawks, Bulls, etc. of the league is going to somehow morph into a team that will compete for a title in 2-3 years?

If you do then you have more faith than I do.

Hell I don't even blame O'Brien anymore (at this point in time what good would that do) beyond his player rotations and style of play.

But let me assure you Jim O'Brien does not cause Jeff Foster to miss a point blank layup or Mike Dunleavy to lay up some puffy soft shot to be swatted off of the board by a charging defender.

Yes I want a new coach just like most of you but that new coach is still going to have to have some new talent as well or we will once again be arguing over what 10th man should get more min. so we can stop the losing.

Believe it or not this is my fourth draft and this is the most optimistic and non depressing of the four. I had an odd thoughts all typed up and ready to send over to the front page and just deleted it because even I didn't like the tone of the post.

Yes losing is getting to me, to much I freely admit. But I invest a lot of time into following the club so to be once again at the half way part of the season (almost anyway) and knowing we are not going anywhere is just disheartening. I am now pretty much convinced that by this time next week we will be looking up at both the Bobcats and the Bucks putting us once again at 10th in the East.

If I could say that I saw a light at the end of the tunnel I would be happy to do so, but right now things look pretty bleak.

I am open to anything to improve the club now.

Speed
01-20-2011, 06:09 AM
I'm starting to point to Danny Granger.

Almost every game in crunch time, he's making mental errors, now.

For last night, I'm talking about the offensive rebound by David Lee in the final minute fo the game. Danny was there, on the back side of Lee in case there was a long rebound. They attack the defensive glass this way, by sandwiching guys. Danny just stood there and watched Lee rebound.

Its almost every game now and multiple things, not just the horrible obvious turnovers.

I think you it becomes more and more evident, you can't win with him as your #1, so maybe its time to seriously rethink that....

imho

Mackey_Rose
01-20-2011, 06:16 AM
I am going to come at this from a different perspective. I didn't expect us to win either game to start out the road trip. I can't possibly feel depressed by losing two games I thought we'd lose.

But I actually enjoyed watching that game against Golden State last night. I haven't enjoyed many games since about December 1st, but last night, I finally felt invested in the team again, and it was fun. Whereas the Clippers' game on Monday felt like getting a two and a half hour root canal, the Warriors' game was actually an enjoyable experience.

It isn't about the wins and losses for me. It hasn't been about that all season. It has all been about development, and hope for the future. Last night I found myself just a little bit hopeful again.

It is 100% about playing the young guys who might, just might, be able to lead us back to relevance. It is not about playing expiring contract vets, who might be able to sneak us into the 8th seed in the playoffs. I still contend that the young guys give us an equal chance of a playoff birth, but the playoffs this season are pretty much irrelevant. If we don't make them playing the youth, fine. It will help us make them in the future, and when we get there, we might actually have a chance to advance.

So from a guy who usually sees things a whole lot less sunshine and rainbows than the PD-majority, last night made me feel a whole lot better. There was something to be positive about again finally. I hope they keep it up, and it wasn't just an anomaly because of Roy's sickness.

Mackey_Rose
01-20-2011, 06:20 AM
I'm starting to point to Danny Granger.

Almost every game in crunch time, he's making mental errors, now.

For last night, I'm talking about the offensive rebound by David Lee in the final minute fo the game. Danny was there, on the back side of Lee in case there was a long rebound. They attack the defensive glass this way, by sandwiching guys. Danny just stood there and watched Lee rebound.

Its almost every game now and multiple things, not just the horrible obvious turnovers.

I think you it becomes more and more evident, you can't win with him as your #1, so maybe its time to seriously rethink that....

imho

I agree with everything you said, but Foster needs to share, at least, an equal share of the blame for that as Granger.

He might have been in the right position inside of Lee, but he is physically no longer able to make that play. He is slow to leave his feet, and when he finally does, there is no lift.

pwee31
01-20-2011, 07:48 AM
The team has stopped playing defense. The guys are digging in like they use to. Brandon Rush has gotten torch the last 2 games by Gordon and Ellis. Paul George has actually played better one on one defense than Brandon that last two games, but has gotten into foul trouble.

WAY too many turnovers last night, that kept the Warriors in it early, and gave them momentum late.

Foster did a wonderful job on the boards, but 1-8... not going to work

Granger played a really good game, but 7 turnovers by him is unacceptable

And than teams are getting good shots, and hitting tough shots. Warriors shot 51% from the field last night. Monta Ellis was creating space, David Lee was getting an open mid range jumper.

Guys just aren't closing out of the defensive end, if they do they overplay and foul or overplay where the opposing player drives right past them and the help is late

D-BONE
01-20-2011, 08:09 AM
Yep...simple as weak D and carelessness with the rock. I think that sums up the loss. Like seeing the younger line up and hope OB's gone next year.

However, losing a lot of faith in Rush. He's lapsed back into the playing too often with no focus / desire. Add that to Roy's struggles and I'm just not convinced we've assembled as strong a young core as some hope. Either way, though, you've got to play them.

DG is what he is. Collison looks like he wjll be dependable. George has the talent, but has to realize the potential. Outside those three, still not sure there's any other long term starter quality guys on this roster.

So we're are actually, IMO, more than one SIGNIFICANT acquisition away from being a marginal contender/4-6 playoff seed.

15th parallel
01-20-2011, 08:11 AM
I maybe only one of the few who see things differently after this game. Yes we lost, to a "lesser team", by another close game. But if we play more the young guys and bench theveterans who are not doing well, then I'm happy regardless of the results.

From this game, I feel encouraged that we have a bright future in our draft pick Paul George. I also feel that the Collison/Price PG rotation will be solid as they get the major minutes at PG. With Tyler getting good amount of minutes, he starts to become more confortable getting buckets in the NBA. For as long as JOB sticks with the younger rotation including Collison, Price, Granger, George, Hansbrough, Hibbert, Rush Price and McRoberts, and all of them getting minutes, they'll start to become solid as a team and develop further their skillsets.

We have seen mistakes from Price and Josh, but they are all on reserved lineup before this game, and what do you expect to happen? Tyler's minutes are also erratic, so how can you expect consistency from him?

It's not only just Granger's fault. Yes, he has way too many turnovers, but his teammates also contributed some turnovers and defensive mistakes. Although we lost this one, I'm happy that at least Granger has found his touch (at least in the last 2 games) and Collison starting to carry a huge load on offense.

If JOB continues to use those young ones, especially our draft picks, we'll definitely see them start winning and start becoming better.

Unclebuck
01-20-2011, 08:11 AM
Give these players a coach they will go to war for. A coach that is a straight shooter... his words and actions line up. A coach that believes in fundamentals and values each possession. A coach that has his players' backs. A coach that is honest... if he says he wants defense first then every action should indicate that.

A coach that is willing to stick with a rotation. A coach that is willing to develop young players on a team that is going nowhere without them and be consistent with them along the way. You don't have to play young players 38 mins a game... but it shouldn't be too hard to find consistent minutes for them.

Give the same amount of slack to all players. Everyone is equal.

Get a coach that respects the game.



Wow if you can find a coach like that I would love to meet him because I've always wanted to meet God. No coach that perfect exists in our world.

Speed
01-20-2011, 08:17 AM
Paul George has actually played better one on one defense than Brandon that last two games, but has gotten into foul trouble.



I hope this is being noticed.

Paul can, at 20, handle the ball in traffic better than Brandon does now. Also, he is smoother, makes better decisions with the ball, right now.

Brandon's scared to have the ball in his hands in traffic, it makes him one dimensional shooter or a one dribble guy. Really limits what you can do as a team. PG has much more in his arsenal.

If PG becomes able to defend consistently and keep his fouls down, I'm not sure what would keep him from playing 30 minutes a night.

D-BONE
01-20-2011, 08:19 AM
I hope this is being noticed.

Paul can, at 20, handle the ball in traffic better than Brandon does now. Also, he is smoother, makes better decisions with the ball, right now.

Brandon's scared to have the ball in his hands in traffic, it makes him one dimensional shooter or a one dribble guy. Really limits what you can do as a team. PG has much more in his arsenal.

If PG becomes able to defend consistently and keep his fouls down, I'm not sure what would keep him from playing 30 minutes a night.

This may well happen naturally, but I think BR's issue is so much mental. He just doesn't play with confidence and purpose consistently. It's more the exception than the rule.

McKeyFan
01-20-2011, 08:24 AM
Give these players a coach they will go to war for. A coach that is a straight shooter... his words and actions line up. A coach that believes in fundamentals and values each possession. A coach that has his players' backs. A coach that is honest... if he says he wants defense first then every action should indicate that.

A coach that is willing to stick with a rotation. A coach that is willing to develop young players on a team that is going nowhere without them and be consistent with them along the way. You don't have to play young players 38 mins a game... but it shouldn't be too hard to find consistent minutes for them.

Give the same amount of slack to all players. Everyone is equal.

Get a coach that respects the game.

Do that and then evaluate the players. As long as they don't care for the coach let alone understand what mix and match weirdness he's coming up with next, especially after 4 years of this insanity, then it's not hard to see why they simply don't have the heart to play the game the right way game in and game out. ...And it doesn't help when your coach doesn't necessarily preach playing the game the right way! And for what it's worth... with this willy nilly system the Pacers run on offense, when they do need one big basket in the closing seconds it's not a thing of beauty and poetry in motion on the court instead it's a feaking Chinese fire drill... but I digress....

You could argue the new players aren't on their 4th year of Capt Contradiction.... but they are surrounded by players who are... and they have to have an attitude of WTF by now. An attitude that is permeating the entire team at this point.

Great post.

The bold part I have some comment on. We have two players that provide some sense of possible scoring in the low post—Roy and Tyler.

Tyler didn't see the floor down the stretch, if I recall correctly, and hasn't in the last few games even though he has gotten minutes and started.

Roy is in his funk, as we know, and we can quibble about reasons elsewhere. But when the game slows down at the end, you've GOT to have at least one low post threat in the game to (drum roll) stretch the floor. It causes guys to be open on the perimeter.

So . . . I point to that as to why we seem so clueless at the end of games.

Mackey_Rose
01-20-2011, 08:31 AM
Wow if you can find a coach like that I would love to meet him because I've always wanted to meet God. No coach that perfect exists in our world.

So that's what you think a perfect coach is? And yet you continue to unwaveringly support a coach that is everything the opposite of your idea of perfection?

I'm confused.

McKeyFan
01-20-2011, 08:38 AM
So that's what you think a perfect coach is? And yet you continue to unwaveringly support a coach that is everything the opposite of your idea of perfection?

I'm confused.
Well, JOB is apparently the opposite of perfection.

Peck, at this point, with a broader perspective, you really need to consider upgrading Derrick McKey's status to just a lesser demon or even small-time angel.

Trader Joe
01-20-2011, 08:39 AM
What is wrong?

Isn't it obvious at this point?

This team just isn't that good.

Unclebuck
01-20-2011, 08:45 AM
So that's what you think a perfect coach is? And yet you continue to unwaveringly support a coach that is everything the opposite of your idea of perfection?

I'm confused.

I just thought that Bball's posts was a bit unrealistic and no coach could live up to all of that. I could go point by point. But for example no coach treats every player the same. No person could live up to what Bball is asking for

DocHolliday
01-20-2011, 08:48 AM
I've tuned in to probably 75% of the games this year and I usually keep tabs on them throughout the night as the games are usually interesting. I had last night's game on in the second quarter for maybe 5 minutes before I turned the channel for good because I was bored to tears with the stagnant offense. I saw one nice drive to the hoop by Rush, but other than that, I might as well have been watching a bunch of nobodies at the rec center. It looked like there was no energy.

I think they've done their annual "tune out the coach, we're sick of this" routine. Think about it, last year's 5-game winning streak, this year's wins over the Lakers, Heat and Hornets--full of energy and, not coincidentally, early in the year when even the most hapless teams are going all out.

Trader Joe
01-20-2011, 08:52 AM
I'm way beyond the point of being upset with O'Brien.

Josh has shown zero improvement from last year.

Roy has shown zero improvement from last year save the first month of the season, and if anything has regressed back towards his rookie self, but now he just weighs less. He's completely wasted his new athleticism.

AJ Price reminds us all why he was a second round pick the past couple times he has gotten a chance.

Granger is shooting the ball worse than he ever has and I honestly don't expect it to get better.

Solo sucks. Posey is old. Ford is still Ford even if he's more accepting of his role.

Rush has been better this season, but still disappears for long stretches.

The only three guys I can say I'm mildly pleased with are Hansbrough, Darren Collison, and Paul George.

And all three of those guys have issues that will hold them back.

Hans: Basically a rookie.
Collison: Second year player, first year full time starter learning a new system. Terrible defensively.
George: Good effort and all that jazz, but still gets lost on both ends way too often. A year or two from being a consistent player IMO.

We're just not that good. Roy's hype at the start of the season and the assumption that Josh would be "Irrelevant Lakers Josh" for the whole season severely skewed my view of this team's talent level at the start of the year. If anything, I'm starting to think it's pretty impressive we're only 7 games under .500.

NapTonius Monk
01-20-2011, 09:11 AM
I'm way beyond the point of being upset with O'Brien.

Josh has shown zero improvement from last year.

Roy has shown zero improvement from last year save the first month of the season, and if anything has regressed back towards his rookie self, but now he just weighs less. He's completely wasted his new athleticism.

AJ Price reminds us all why he was a second round pick the past couple times he has gotten a chance.

Granger is shooting the ball worse than he ever has and I honestly don't expect it to get better.

Solo sucks. Posey is old. Ford is still Ford even if he's more accepting of his role.

Rush has been better this season, but still disappears for long stretches.

The only three guys I can say I'm mildly pleased with are Hansbrough, Darren Collison, and Paul George.

And all three of those guys have issues that will hold them back.

Hans: Basically a rookie.
Collison: Second year player, first year full time starter learning a new system. Terrible defensively.
George: Good effort and all that jazz, but still gets lost on both ends way too often. A year or two from being a consistent player IMO.

We're just not that good. Roy's hype at the start of the season and the assumption that Josh would be "Irrelevant Lakers Josh" for the whole season severely skewed my view of this team's talent level at the start of the year. If anything, I'm starting to think it's pretty impressive we're only 7 games under .500.:eek:

bellisimo
01-20-2011, 09:28 AM
nowadays i get the feeling the previous 16 wins were not done due to our talent, rather the opponent was just significantly worse.

Denver was once in a lifetime game where all the stars were aligned...
Lakers were in a funk and was going through a losing streak...
Same with Miami - they were going through the motions...
Dallas - Dirk was out and they too were going through a rough patch...

other than that, we beat Cleveland 3 times, Charlotte and Philly twice, Clippers, Kings, Wizards and Raptors once.

The only good team we beat was the Hornets - and that was by a last second shot.

So yes - this team has not been good all year long. We were just getting a bit of an easy schedule by playing against the nba's bottom dwellers and padding our Ws along with running against the "big teams" in the right time. But now the real face of the Pacers is out in the open. We are just not that good.

Which is why I along with everyone has been saying that we need to play the young guys from the begining so we can actually see what they are capable of. Having all this "potential" without any source of actual credible backup brings us to our current state of turmoil.

pacer4ever
01-20-2011, 09:32 AM
Paul should be playing more than 11 mins more like 25mis

Trader Joe
01-20-2011, 09:42 AM
:eek:

It's shocking because it's true.

vnzla81
01-20-2011, 09:42 AM
I know what is wrong, JOB got the message to play the young guys but he is doing it the JOB way by mixing and shuffling with the line up, how we expect AJ,Hans,Paul and Josh to be consistent if they never know when they are going to play?. At this point I'm just happy that I got to see the youngster playing and didn't have to seat and watch Posey,Solo and TJ on the court because either way neither the veterans or the young players weren't going to win the game.

DTheKing23
01-20-2011, 09:52 AM
i thought it was an entertaining game. i loved hansbroughs dunk on dunleavy..i think most of the blame is on JEFF FOSTER cause he really stunk up the entire fourth quarter. It just didn't make sense for him to be in there that long

Trophy
01-20-2011, 10:12 AM
We need to continue to go with that rotation and consistently plus Roy at center.

These are pretty much the core guys and they need to get used to playing with each other.

They need to play like they care and that's by not turning the ball over so much. That was embarrassing and pathetic how we were just chucking the ball across the court.

They need to close out a lead by winning. They make it way to hard and slack off and we wind up losing the lead in the 4th quarter.

Other than that, it's good to see Danny playing like himself again, DC is still playing well, and Paul is starting to play really well.

DGPR
01-20-2011, 10:19 AM
Being 7 games below .500 I really really hope that has lit a fire under Bird's proverbial *** to make changes to this team now. I think it's time to start hitting the trade lines aggressively before the wheels fall completely off the bus. I'm not saying that he hasn't been making calls or listening to offers from other teams, but he needs to start burning through those rollover minutes now that the Melo to NJ deal seems to be off.

I believe this thing can be turned around still if we bring in some new talent to help take some of the scoring pressure off of Granger.

Paul George can and will be a scorer in this league but he is not ready yet to take half the load off of Granger.

Roy Hibbert has something mentally going against him that prevents him from being the #2 scoring option behind Granger. He may turn it around this season if he gets his head right or he may never turn it around and what you see is what you get.

Mike Dunleavy is streaky as hell and I don't think he can be dependable to be a #1 or #2 scoring option. Over the last 3 games I'm sure he is averaging under 35% from the field which is nothing less than putrid.

With Rush you never know what you're going to get and he's been like that for 3 years now so who knows if that will ever change. I don't think it ever will and the Brandon we see now is what we will always see.

Collison is a pretty good PnR and PnP player but will we ever get the right players to play along side him so that he can flourish? I think he's doing an admirable job with what he has to play with now but we should expect better as he gets older.

I'm hoping that Bird is throwing everything but the kitchen sink at Iggy besides Granger, George, or Collison because I think having a consistent threat at the wing to play alongside Granger will improve this team 10 fold. George won't be consistent, I don't think, for another year at least so we need a guy now.

This team just needs a huge talent upgrade and with the expirings and draft picks we have to offer then we should be able to get a good injection of talent on this team before the trade deadline.

beast23
01-20-2011, 10:25 AM
...We are just not a very talented team, in all honesty and at this point in time I'm throwing my hands up in the air and saying I have no idea how to get to the point of being more talented.

Obviously drafting in the mid teens every year will give you a chance to get a good player (see Granger) but it really is not going to give you a chance to get a special player (see Griffin). But drafting a top 10 player is no guarantee of getting a special player either (see Dunleavy).

Trades are good but what team is going to part with a star player for what little we have and in all honesty would we have to trade away so much talent that what little we have here is left to help the good player when he get's here.

However I'm coming more and more to the belief that we are just going to let all of these expiring contracts expire and frankly that just depresses the living crap out of me. If we don't use them as the trade items then we will have nothing to trade away to get anything with.
You have stated the obvious... we are not a deeply talented team. And, it is apparent that relying on mid teens draft picks year after year will result in a team slowly dropping in the standings over time; the Pacers are a prime example of that fact.

That really makes one conclude that the only chance of making signficant improvements to this team are through trades and free agent signings.

As you state, giving up our talent to get equal but different talent probably does not take a step in the positive direction... at the very least it does not take a significant step in the positive direction.

So, what does that leave us to improve. It's really pretty obvious that there is really only one choice left. ADDITION WITHOUT SUBTRACTION. That's addition of talent without sacrificing any current desirable talent.

And that's where it get's difficult... and simple.

The easiest way to accomplish this is to simply use cap space to sign free agents. That is obviously addition without subtraction. But, many also recognize that we have not been known for signing free agents in the upper echelon of the talent pool. The only means that I say of fixing that is to be willing to overpay them.

A much more difficult way of increasing the team talent level is to trade expiring contracts or crap players for talented players or for draft choices that are either high enough to result in drafting a decent prospect or that can be used in another trade. To me, as much respect that I've had for Foster, we must also be willing to part with him because he is a talent that might be coveted by a contending team near the trade deadline. Ditto for Dunleavy and TJ Ford, even though I would not oppose to re-signing Dunleavy if he were willing to take a significantly lower contract.

I really view getting better as a process that could take about 3 steps. First, improving to the point that we have players that would be good enough to get us into the playoffs every year. Second, having players that can gain us first round home court advantage. And finally, a team that actually is capable of contending in the East.

I honestly believe that the mere addition of a David West accomplishes the first goal. I picked him because he probably fulfills the combination of fitting with Hibbert while able to work the PnR with Collison (since he has already done that for 1 year) better than anyone else available at PF. There are probably one or two other PFs available that would probably get us into the playoffs as well, but I think that West is more capable of also helping us accomplish the second goal as well... getting us to a #4 seed.

That is one FA and quite a bit of improvement already. I would really see us also signing a PF that is less expensive in addition to West. Perhaps someone like Landry. So, the PFs become West, Landry, Hansbrough.

I'll admit that getting the right players takes a bit of luck. However, if we were able to also find a more suitable SG this summer as well, then I think the Pacers could pass right over the first goal and be immediately knocking on the door of the second goal of getting first round home court advantage.

But regardless of the specifics, the Pacers really only have one means of making significant strides. Addition without subtraction.

owl
01-20-2011, 10:34 AM
What is wrong?

Isn't it obvious at this point?

This team just isn't that good.


Monta Ellis is GOOD. That guy is a driver and shot maker supreme. I would trade Rush, a first and an expiring for him and more if needed. He is a difference maker. He could be the
Batman and Danny Robin. Too bad he will never leave GS.

Kegboy
01-20-2011, 10:41 AM
We've got $30M in cap space coming. That'll get us some talent. And before anybody finds fault with this year's FA field, remember we don't have to use it all this year. Just look at NY.

I most certainly do not feel we need to do trades this deadline. Murphy-for-DC trades don't grow on trees you know. I'd take cap flexibility over another bad contract any day.

Trader Joe
01-20-2011, 10:51 AM
We've got $30M in cap space coming. That'll get us some talent. And before anybody finds fault with this year's FA field, remember we don't have to use it all this year. Just look at NY.

I most certainly do not feel we need to do trades this deadline. Murphy-for-DC trades don't grow on trees you know. I'd take cap flexibility over another bad contract any day.

This. 1,000x this.

Eleazar
01-20-2011, 10:53 AM
We have talent on this team, it is mostly young talent that hasn't reached their potential, but it is still talent.

PacerGuy
01-20-2011, 11:05 AM
Coaching DOES influence talent - scheme, rotations, consistency, attitude, trust, respect - All of it. How does one expect great thing from a player (Josh) who starts, then fall 100% out of the rotation, then starts again out of the blue one day after he was the best physically apt player we had to defend a player who put up an NBA high on us? Then, on the same night, put in a PG who has only seen a peek in 16 games & give him significant min's w/o having let hem on the floor in forever to keep him sharp? Physically too, game shape is different then practice shape, & AJ is coming off an injury - the same injury that kept the this years high point scorer out all of last year! - and do so against the team leading he NBA in steels & against a very good & quick backcourt.
(see rotations, consistency, scheme above).
Are we really to believe that JO'B has decieded to play AJ/Josh/George/Tyler some/more/at all because he has had a change of heart. Yes, "smallball" has been a convenient way of explaining it, but IMO its more. George & Tyler (re)emerges after a 5 day break where many were calling for a coaching change following several bad losses. AJ now finds his way onto the court, and all this as the trade deadling gets closer & closer. This is after a Indy Star hatchet job posting anti-JO'B comments from the fan base, & a 2 days after JO'B takes much heat about never playing McBob vs B.Griffen. And all the while JO'B is defient that this is all on him.
(see attitudes, respect, trust above)
Did you know that when you add the last 2 games to the total that we have lost 11 games in which we have lead or were tied in the 4 Q? how many times do we see opponents get easy scores on an inbounds or do you see us fail to get a guy open, or in the right guys hands at the end of games? How did Q4 defense by placing Posey on Amare & Blake work out? How has our youth developed IN-SEASON? Seems everything I read talks about how hard our guys work, how much better they get in the OFF-SEASON, but I only see regression durring the season - or maybe thats just me. Maybe I'm imagining how well we played out of camp/ comming off the summer then how we are playing now. Then I heard from the players they were "getting it", while now I'm reading quotes that "we're just not getting it". One word - REGRESSION!
(see Coaching in general)

**I want to add a quick edit:
I do NOT think JO'B is a bad coach, but I do think he is a bad fit & thus making bad coaching decisions. Personell is key to any coach & IMO JO'B does not have great pieces, but is not using or developing them as he should. Hes rotations/combonations on the floor are questionable & IMO have lead to him/us losing games. Is he stubborn - yes, but I think he has a great basketball mind. He needs a veteran team, not one getting younger & younger. When he came he helped restore trust & respect to the franchise & I can not repay him enough for that (Thank You Jim!), but IMO the time for change has come.

Hicks
01-20-2011, 11:22 AM
Let's be honest here from a PacersDigest standpoint this pretty much was a dream come true.

No T.J. Ford, no James Posey and no Solomon Jones.

He started both Tyler & Josh and Paul George got some work.

So from that stand point really nobody should complain much about Jim's player selection. Of course there is always the point of inconsistency but frankly we are just so bad that one has to give him some passes on this.

However the reality is we just lost to the Golden State Warriors after we lost to the L.A. Clippers. Now no offense to either team as they are both improved but the fact is that losing to either team did not come as a surprise and that is the problem.

We are just not a very talented team, in all honesty and at this point in time I'm throwing my hands up in the air and saying I have no idea how to get to the point of being more talented.

Obviously drafting in the mid teens every year will give you a chance to get a good player (see Granger) but it really is not going to give you a chance to get a special player (see Griffin). But drafting a top 10 player is no guarantee of getting a special player either (see Dunleavy).

Trades are good but what team is going to part with a star player for what little we have and in all honesty would we have to trade away so much talent that what little we have here is left to help the good player when he get's here.

However I'm coming more and more to the belief that we are just going to let all of these expiring contracts expire and frankly that just depresses the living crap out of me. If we don't use them as the trade items then we will have nothing to trade away to get anything with.

Sorry folks this is not going to be a bright and shiny post at all.

I keep reading statement that the team is headed in the right direction and frankly I want to hit a wall when I read that anymore. What does that even mean? Does anyone truly believe that the group of players we have right now, you know the ones who can not beat the Warriors, Clippers, Bucks, Hawks, Bulls, etc. of the league is going to somehow morph into a team that will compete for a title in 2-3 years?

If you do then you have more faith than I do.

Hell I don't even blame O'Brien anymore (at this point in time what good would that do) beyond his player rotations and style of play.

But let me assure you Jim O'Brien does not cause Jeff Foster to miss a point blank layup or Mike Dunleavy to lay up some puffy soft shot to be swatted off of the board by a charging defender.

Yes I want a new coach just like most of you but that new coach is still going to have to have some new talent as well or we will once again be arguing over what 10th man should get more min. so we can stop the losing.

Believe it or not this is my fourth draft and this is the most optimistic and non depressing of the four. I had an odd thoughts all typed up and ready to send over to the front page and just deleted it because even I didn't like the tone of the post.

Yes losing is getting to me, to much I freely admit. But I invest a lot of time into following the club so to be once again at the half way part of the season (almost anyway) and knowing we are not going anywhere is just disheartening. I am now pretty much convinced that by this time next week we will be looking up at both the Bobcats and the Bucks putting us once again at 10th in the East.

If I could say that I saw a light at the end of the tunnel I would be happy to do so, but right now things look pretty bleak.

I am open to anything to improve the club now.

Before you're hanging from the ceiling with "Peck was here" scratched into the wall, let's see how this rotation looks if it's given more than a few chances to work. We're not always this bad with turnovers, AJ Price usually looks a lot sharper than this, and Josh usually doesn't look bad. Granted, Roy will probably push Josh back out of the rotation, but still.

I largely agree with you, but we're not quite done seeing what we have yet. And truthfully we never will this season because of Jim O'Brien.

We need to see this group with a different coach. It sounds like we very well might not make any trades (and that upsets me), but at the bare minimum we'll be adding talent this summer/fall/whenever-the-lockout-is-over.

Now my fear with that is it will be more mediocre talent, but we'll have to wait and see.

My hope for the future is on life support, but it isn't dead.

dohman
01-20-2011, 11:55 AM
This is Easy.

Hibbert - No confidence. Needs a nasty streak. The first month of the season he was on cloud 9. He started to miss some shots and he started to question himself. You cannot be a nba talent that wants to be a allstar and question your own shot. He also has no lift on his shot in the post. Its a line drive to the back of the basket.

Josh/Tyler - Still the worst starting combo in the nba at the PF imo. In 1-2 years tyler will average 12 ppg or so if he is the starter.

Granger - Starting to play better over the past few games.

Rush - Dun. neither player is nba quality good. Let me rephrase that. Neither player is starter on a GOOD nba team. Rush has all the tools but none of the motivation. I do not see how someone as athletic as him will not take the ball to the basket. He would rather watch everyone else play offense and just play defense. Which is crazy because he has such a smooth shot.

Dun is a great 6th man. I really hope he goes to a team that can utilize him and one that he can help.

Darren - Great 2nd year PG. But we have to remember that is what he is. A second year point guard in a poor point guard system.

We are not a good team. Our team is made up of players that are borderline starters. That is our starters and our bench. Any team would love to have our players for their bench because they would be great bench players. Other than danny and darren no one can take over a game or put points up in bunches.

We need a low post presence. When the jump shot is not falling we need to feed it down low and hit 4 - 6 points to get our wings going again. Right now we lack that and the defense does not have to double or worry about under the basket. I truly believe that hibberts hook and low post game will come back. JOB just has to trust him and continue to feed him. Centers take a long time to develop. It is mostly foot work and mental. He has a ton of upside. His defense and rebounding has been greatly improved this season. He just needs to quit being so damn friendly and consider every game a war.

---

Personally I would scrap brandon and dun in the offseason and either give the keys to paul george and get a high profile pf or leave tyler in the lineup and go after a real scoring guard.

My picks - Iggy or ZBO. - I dont care about off court antics. I care about winning.

BringJackBack
01-20-2011, 12:22 PM
Granger and Hibbert started playing like crap in DEC and every single thing went downhill from there.

Since86
01-20-2011, 12:37 PM
I thought the offense looked a lot better last night. Attacking the basket leads to points in a number of different ways.

Turnovers and defense was the problem. Turnovers will take care of themselves as they become more comfortable, and once Danny realizes that he doesn't need to bulldoze everyone over in order to maybe get a call. Pick your spots Danny, they aren't going to give you a call when you put your head down and just blindly bounce off defenders.

And GS is going to make a lot of defenses look bad.


The ideal solution would be to get Hibbert back, and effective on the low post. If he can get back into form, where you can dump it in to him on the low post and force fouls or easy buckets, it will make the offense better. Being aggressive and attacking the basket will offer relief on him on the post. Get players cutting and it will force the defense to make the right rotations, if they go to double team.


Last night was the first time I liked watching them for a long time.


I think the rotation problem, when Hibbert gets back is relatively easy. Don't play Danny at the 4 so much, if at all, and cut back on Foster's minutes. Cut back Danny's time to about 38mins, 4 less, and cut Foster back to 18-20, 10mins less, and you have 14mins or so to give to McRoberts.

Althought I'm not sure a McRoberts/Foster tandem will work all that great. I don't know, it's a work in progress, but I thought the dribble drive offense they executed last night was a hell of a lot better than the passing quick offense.

And I thought the difference was extremely noticeable late in the fourth when Jim started calling out his set plays, which was the passing oriented style. It came to a grinding hault for a few possessions, until DC took Curry straight to the bucket.

xIndyFan
01-20-2011, 01:16 PM
random thoughts,

glad to see AJ on the floor. he looked like a combo guard trying to run the PnR darren collison offense instead of the solid PG he has been in the past. but IIRC, he used to do a decent job running the PnR in the past, so that may be rust. i thought he played very well last year in JOB's system. but the JOB offense is friendly to combo guards that are less PG and more SG. jack comes to mind. but i do want to see AJ play more. and run the darren collison offense to see if he can. or if he is just a JOB system PG. if he can play, then the pacers are solid at the point for the near future. if not, then it is time to start looking for a new backup PG.

paul george looked pretty good. he is still not a ready for prime time guy, but he looked better and better. keep the 4 wing rotation and get him playing time. pacers need to see if this guy is legit or not. i am optimistic.

the rest of the swing guys are ok. they are who they are. jmo, but i think pacers will stick with the PG/brandon/danny rotation going forward. and should be fine there if paul george turns out to be a good player.

the bigs are a mess. right now, neither josh or tyler can defend anyone. they looked horrible defensively. individual defense was poor and it looked like they were really having trouble rotating defensively. one of these guys might make a decent backup in a couple of years, but right now. . . not so much. jeff is the only defender in the game and he is soo horrible on offense.

roy needs to play. maybe simplify what his responsibility is. more rim to rim running. seal his man and wait for the pass. more high post offense, less fighting for position in the low post. jeff has to be the backup big by default. start tyler or josh and sit the other one. i would start tyler, but have no problems with josh. whoever learns to defend first gets the backup big job next year. and trade for a PF that can play. pacers right now do not have an NBA quality starter on the team.

darren collison. i like what pacers are doing with him. he still is too little and poor defender, but he does seem to be working on it. i like the collison-foster and 3 shooter small offense as a go to thing. would like to see it in the crunch.

my main complaint about the coaching last night was the absence of postups on monta ellis. pacers did it a couple of times with PG. but not nearly enough. ellis is a worse defender than darren. post him and force the double team. all of the pacer guards can see over him and should be able to score over him. pacers have size in the wings, they need to use that size to their advantage more.

LA_Confidential
01-20-2011, 01:20 PM
we need Z-BO

No.

BornReady#6
01-20-2011, 01:42 PM
Give these players a coach they will go to war for. A coach that is a straight shooter... his words and actions line up. A coach that believes in fundamentals and values each possession. A coach that has his players' backs. A coach that is honest... if he says he wants defense first then every action should indicate that.

A coach that is willing to stick with a rotation. A coach that is willing to develop young players on a team that is going nowhere without them and be consistent with them along the way. You don't have to play young players 38 mins a game... but it shouldn't be too hard to find consistent minutes for them.

Give the same amount of slack to all players. Everyone is equal.

Get a coach that respects the game.

Do that and then evaluate the players. As long as they don't care for the coach let alone understand what mix and match weirdness he's coming up with next, especially after 4 years of this insanity, then it's not hard to see why they simply don't have the heart to play the game the right way game in and game out. ...And it doesn't help when your coach doesn't necessarily preach playing the game the right way! And for what it's worth... with this willy nilly system the Pacers run on offense, when they do need one big basket in the closing seconds it's not a thing of beauty and poetry in motion on the court instead it's a feaking Chinese fire drill... but I digress....

You could argue the new players aren't on their 4th year of Capt Contradiction.... but they are surrounded by players who are... and they have to have an attitude of WTF by now. An attitude that is permeating the entire team at this point.

Exactly, and why is Lance always picking his nose? Somebody get that boy a box of klennex to put under his seat, great post btw, this team is plenty talented, and we all know it, thats why we all have such high expectations for them, and that is consequently why we all feel so let down.

LA_Confidential
01-20-2011, 01:48 PM
Problem is, we don't have a Closer.

I do have a question though. If were going to throw a lob at the end of the game, why not throw it to Josh or Paul?

Mackey_Rose
01-20-2011, 01:54 PM
the bigs are a mess. right now, neither josh or tyler can defend anyone. they looked horrible defensively. individual defense was poor and it looked like they were really having trouble rotating defensively. one of these guys might make a decent backup in a couple of years, but right now. . . not so much. jeff is the only defender in the game and he is soo horrible on offense.

This is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.

But I find it interesting that of the three players you mentioned, Foster easily could have been the considered the worst defender of the bunch last night.

At least Josh and Tyler produced offensively. Foster was horrible on both ends.

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 02:05 PM
I know what is wrong, JOB got the message to play the young guys but he is doing it the JOB way by mixing and shuffling with the line up, how we expect AJ,Hans,Paul and Josh to be consistent if they never know when they are going to play?. At this point I'm just happy that I got to see the youngster playing and didn't have to seat and watch Posey,Solo and TJ on the court because either way neither the veterans or the young players weren't going to win the game.

Both Tyler and George have played in every game since New York, its consistent. Last night AJ got his shot, he may get another one but he was just given a chance to earn the back up role, prior to that he was consistently out of the rotation.

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 02:12 PM
This is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.

But I find it interesting that of the three players you mentioned, Foster easily could have been the considered the worst defender of the bunch last night.

At least Josh and Tyler produced offensively. Foster was horrible on both ends.

Unless you think Tyler can play center there is no point in comparing him to foster. Also somehow Foster ended up being the only big with a positive +/- 11. The team consistently performed better with him on the court. This is not opinion its what the stats show

CableKC
01-20-2011, 02:15 PM
Before you're hanging from the ceiling with "Peck was here" scratched into the wall
+1 for using a "Shawshank Redemption" reference.

Pacers4Life
01-20-2011, 02:31 PM
Come back off the ledge for a minute...

We're gonna be ok. I'm honestly not sure how but as I watched last nights game slip away.. All of this silly optimism and sunshine surfaced in me. Ever-present, mostly dormant.. It's ready to burst out of me right now.

We've played like complete garbage for almost 2 months now, does anyone disagree with that statement? Yet I truly believe it's just that.. playing terrible basketball. You see it happen to players, certain teams for a stretch, but I have never seen it overwhelm an entire team for so long, so consistently (but I only watch the Pacers sooo, duh). We are better than this.. That is my personal opinion but i KNOW we're better than this.

EVERYONE.. Roy, Danny, DC, (AJ if he's going to EVER play again.. yikes kid..), BRANDON.. Needs to WAKE THE EFF UP! Sad play from everyone all the time needs to stop. And I think it will.. Sooner rather than later.

Since86
01-20-2011, 02:41 PM
Unless you think Tyler can play center there is no point in comparing him to foster. Also somehow Foster ended up being the only big with a positive +/- 11. The team consistently performed better with him on the court. This is not opinion its what the stats show


You really need to come up with something new, other than the single game plus/minus stat.

I would have thought Seth walking you through why it's not a very good single game evaluating tool would have sunk in, with his post from a couple of days ago.

+/- is completely dependent on the other 4 people your on the floor with. It has very little to do with one person, and it's folly to tout out Jeff's (or anyone's) number like it's the end-all be-all stat proving how good someone played.

Quite frankly, it's not a good stat to use, let alone bring it up every stinking time.

Pacersalltheway10
01-20-2011, 03:30 PM
Jim O'Brien is just losing this team again. He is one of the worst motivators ever.

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 03:44 PM
You really need to come up with something new, other than the single game plus/minus stat.

I would have thought Seth walking you through why it's not a very good single game evaluating tool would have sunk in, with his post from a couple of days ago.

+/- is completely dependent on the other 4 people your on the floor with. It has very little to do with one person, and it's folly to tout out Jeff's (or anyone's) number like it's the end-all be-all stat proving how good someone played.

Quite frankly, it's not a good stat to use, let alone bring it up every stinking time.

This is the second time , recently, I have used this stat to prove my point. Both times I have been right. I know its hard to attack someone who has accurate statistics supporting there point of view when you are wielding only opinion and guesses, thats why I bring statistical proof to the table in the first place.

I brought up the stat in reference to 1 game. The team performed better when foster was on the floor than when Josh was on the floor. The stat is completely accurate for this purpose. If you see this Seth,or anyone that understands statistics at all, please back me up.

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr272/spazzxb/Screenshot2011-01-20at33800PM.png

Josh is on the floor when its blue.

There was only 1 documented minute the entire game where Josh was on the floor and the pacers ouperformed Golden State. I don't care about "foster vs. Josh" its about what lineups were working in one particular game.

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110119&game=INDGSW

Since86
01-20-2011, 03:52 PM
Well then, by your statistical proof one can make the conclusion that AJ/PG/Dunleavy/Hans/Foster is the Pacers best lineup.

Those are the 5 with the best +/- from last night. Are you going to argue that? If not, then there's no reason to bring it up because if you don't, you do actually understand the limitations that are brought on by the +/- stat.

I'm eagerly waiting to read your argument as to why the Pacers played the best why they were on the floor.


And you know what's getting even more tiring than the +/-?? You and this whole "attack" schtick. Grow up.

EDIT: Don't you notice that no one else uses the +/- stat? It's worthless. That's why you're the only one who is using it.

d_c
01-20-2011, 03:54 PM
Problem is, we don't have a Closer.

I do have a question though. If were going to throw a lob at the end of the game, why not throw it to Josh or Paul?

As was mentioned by someone else in the game thread, if the Pacers had inserted McBob in that situation, the Warriors would have known exactly what he was in the game for. They would have been dumb not to recognize it. At most, he would've been a decoy.

ilive4sports
01-20-2011, 03:55 PM
This is the second time , recently, I have used this stat to prove my point. Both times I have been right. I know its hard to attack someone who has accurate statistics supporting there point of view when you are wielding only opinion and guesses, thats why I bring statistical proof to the table in the first place.

I brought up the stat in reference to 1 game. The team performed better when foster was on the floor than when Josh was on the floor. The stat is completely accurate for this purpose. If you see this Seth,or anyone that understands statistics at all, please back me up.

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr272/spazzxb/Screenshot2011-01-20at33800PM.png

There was only 1 documented minute the entire game where Josh was on the floor and the pacers ouperformed Golden State. I don't care about "foster vs. Josh" its about what lineups were working in one particular game.

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110119&game=INDGSW

I dont give a **** about the plus minus stat when I see David Lee hit jumper after jumper because Foster gave him space. Add in the fact that Foster went 1-8 shooting, I dont think the positive +/- was because anything Foster did.

ilive4sports
01-20-2011, 03:57 PM
You have stated the obvious... we are not a deeply talented team. And, it is apparent that relying on mid teens draft picks year after year will result in a team slowly dropping in the standings over time; the Pacers are a prime example of that fact.

That really makes one conclude that the only chance of making signficant improvements to this team are through trades and free agent signings.

As you state, giving up our talent to get equal but different talent probably does not take a step in the positive direction... at the very least it does not take a significant step in the positive direction.

So, what does that leave us to improve. It's really pretty obvious that there is really only one choice left. ADDITION WITHOUT SUBTRACTION. That's addition of talent without sacrificing any current desirable talent.

And that's where it get's difficult... and simple.

The easiest way to accomplish this is to simply use cap space to sign free agents. That is obviously addition without subtraction. But, many also recognize that we have not been known for signing free agents in the upper echelon of the talent pool. The only means that I say of fixing that is to be willing to overpay them.

A much more difficult way of increasing the team talent level is to trade expiring contracts or crap players for talented players or for draft choices that are either high enough to result in drafting a decent prospect or that can be used in another trade. To me, as much respect that I've had for Foster, we must also be willing to part with him because he is a talent that might be coveted by a contending team near the trade deadline. Ditto for Dunleavy and TJ Ford, even though I would not oppose to re-signing Dunleavy if he were willing to take a significantly lower contract.

I really view getting better as a process that could take about 3 steps. First, improving to the point that we have players that would be good enough to get us into the playoffs every year. Second, having players that can gain us first round home court advantage. And finally, a team that actually is capable of contending in the East.

I honestly believe that the mere addition of a David West accomplishes the first goal. I picked him because he probably fulfills the combination of fitting with Hibbert while able to work the PnR with Collison (since he has already done that for 1 year) better than anyone else available at PF. There are probably one or two other PFs available that would probably get us into the playoffs as well, but I think that West is more capable of also helping us accomplish the second goal as well... getting us to a #4 seed.

That is one FA and quite a bit of improvement already. I would really see us also signing a PF that is less expensive in addition to West. Perhaps someone like Landry. So, the PFs become West, Landry, Hansbrough.

I'll admit that getting the right players takes a bit of luck. However, if we were able to also find a more suitable SG this summer as well, then I think the Pacers could pass right over the first goal and be immediately knocking on the door of the second goal of getting first round home court advantage.

But regardless of the specifics, the Pacers really only have one means of making significant strides. Addition without subtraction.


To me you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what we need to do. Most trades we would be able to make is a lateral move. I also suggested David West because of the same reasons. I think it is reasonable to get him too. We have the money to get him too.

Mackey_Rose
01-20-2011, 04:05 PM
And you know what's getting even more tiring than the +/-?? You and this whole "attack" schtick. Grow up.

Quoted because saying it just once was not nearly enough.

Sookie
01-20-2011, 04:07 PM
For the first time last night, we saw a rotation of completely young guys.

I said this way early on, with a young team..you'll beat teams you shouldn't beat, you'll lose to teams you shouldn't lose too (and games you shouldn't lose) ..but that's the fun of having a young team. It doesn't mean they are bad, it means they are young. They have to learn how to win. That's what some of us have been yelling at for the past year and a half. Hopefully, we get to do that now.

Just look at Collison. He made some mistakes last night. But he also made an +1 to tie the game. And look at Collison. He didn't look to good in the begining, but now he's really coming on strong. The guy got consistent minutes and has learned a lot from it...and actually has times when he looks like a very good starter.

Paul George showed flashes of brilliance last night. On the defensive end and the offensive end. He's someone to be excited about.

Hans started off well but cooled down. Still, he's clearly a capable scorer at this level. And he's physical, and he's annoying to play against.

Brandon Rush, AJ Price, and Josh McRoberts had tough games, no doubt.

For Rush, I think Ellis is a tough cover for him. He kept falling for Ellis' fakes, Ellis was too fast, and honestly, I think the fact that he played poorly defensively contributed to him playing poorly offensively. I'm not too concerned over Rush's defense though.

AJ and Josh. Both were exceptionally bad at times, but had some good moments. Josh is not that bad of a defender. We all know that. AJ looked like a rookie out there...one without any confidence and unsure as to how to fit in. When's the last time Price played and looked like a rookie? Maybe twice his rookie season. You have to let these two get the cobwebs out, and allow them to get some confidence.

Hopefully we'll see Roy soon, with this group. And he'll snap out of his funk.

Anyway, I want to see how this unit does for a while..like..the rest of the rest of the season..then we can move on from there. But until then, we should remember that this group is extremely young..and it's going to be ying yangy.

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 04:17 PM
Well then, by your statistical proof one can make the conclusion that AJ/PG/Dunleavy/Hans/Foster is the Pacers best lineup.

Those are the 5 with the best +/- from last night. Are you going to argue that? If not, then there's no reason to bring it up because if you don't, you do actually understand the limitations that are brought on by the +/- stat.

I'm eagerly waiting to read your argument as to why the Pacers played the best why they were on the floor.


And you know what's getting even more tiring than the +/-?? You and this whole "attack" schtick. Grow up.

EDIT: Don't you notice that no one else uses the +/- stat? It's worthless. That's why you're the only one who is using it.

You are implying far to much aggression behind my use of the word attack.

1. With Hibbert out Foster becomes our best center.(my opinion)
2. In this game the team performed better when AJ was on the court.
3. Dunleavy isn't as bad as people make him out to be, also see number 5
4. Hansboro earned the starting 4 position for a reason, seems to be our best PF
5. Paul George played well and is part of our small ball lineup that has been consistently good.

Our most productive line up recently has been:

pg: Collison,
wings: two of Rush, George or Dunleavy
PF: Granger
C: Foster

anything else ?

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 04:22 PM
Quoted because saying it just once was not nearly enough.

Why does it seem like the same 4 people come to back up anyone arguing with me? Do you guys have a handshake or maybe a dance like west side story. (complete joke for my own amusement.)

Bball
01-20-2011, 05:59 PM
Wow if you can find a coach like that I would love to meet him because I've always wanted to meet God. No coach that perfect exists in our world.

So if you can't have the ideal coach then you go 180deg in the opposite direction?

Do you really think O'Brien is good for this team right now?

xIndyFan
01-20-2011, 06:07 PM
. . . 1. With Hibbert out Foster becomes our best center.(my opinion)
2. In this game the team performed better when AJ was on the court.
3. Dunleavy isn't as bad as people make him out to be, also see number 5
4. Hansboro earned the starting 4 position for a reason, seems to be our best PF
5. Paul George played well and is part of our small ball lineup that has been consistently good.

Our most productive line up recently has been:

pg: Collison,
wings: two of Rush, George or Dunleavy
PF: Granger
C: Foster


it has been a nice lineup. and the goto lineup when the pacers need a score. which is nice to see.

idioteque
01-20-2011, 06:36 PM
That you all are really still watching this team night in and night out says something about your character that I personally don't possess. And I mean that in a positive way.

I just can't watch a team losing at a clip like the Pacers are throw away more and more games in a crappy conference in the middle of the season. I'd probably be watching every game if we were just treading water and staying around .500. But I really have no confidence that this team will ever approach within 5 games of .500 this year again. If so, I might be interested again.

I watched each and every game until mid December, when Hibbert started looking like a career backup and best, and Granger led the chuck-a-thon Obieball offense that we're playing. Then I just said forget it. I don't have the time or the energy to chronicle another 33-49 stinkfest where the team plays a pansified, lamb-like offense where we're just chucking and everyone's afraid to take the ball to the ****ing basket.

Hopefully we play our cards right with free agency and get a new coach. Otherwise this team will get nothing from me but ESPN box score checks. I didn't even know we were playing last night until I checked NBA scores this morning. If the Pacers are a .500 at least fighting for a playoff berth (and not losing their way into the playoffs like you can in the East) I'm buying merch, buying League Pass, watching every game and encouraging all my Hoosier friends to embrace the team. But I just can't take this.

Bball
01-20-2011, 06:42 PM
At this point I watch the start... leave the game on and do some work on the computer in another room. Maybe check in every so often... if it's a blowout and the other team is taking it to the Pacers I turn it off. If it stays close I try and catch at least the last minutes of the 4th qtr. Other than that I have no interest in watching an O'Brien coached team at all. Ever!

aaronb
01-20-2011, 06:46 PM
So if you can't have the ideal coach then you go 180deg in the opposite direction?

Do you really think O'Brien is good for this team right now?

It doesn't matter who the coach is. When your 1,2 and 3 players should be 3,4,5 players. You just aren't going to win in the NBA.

Hicks
01-20-2011, 06:47 PM
This is the second time , recently, I have used this stat to prove my point. Both times I have been right. I know its hard to attack someone who has accurate statistics supporting there point of view when you are wielding only opinion and guesses, thats why I bring statistical proof to the table in the first place.

I brought up the stat in reference to 1 game. The team performed better when foster was on the floor than when Josh was on the floor. The stat is completely accurate for this purpose. If you see this Seth,or anyone that understands statistics at all, please back me up.

http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr272/spazzxb/Screenshot2011-01-20at33800PM.png

Josh is on the floor when its blue.

There was only 1 documented minute the entire game where Josh was on the floor and the pacers ouperformed Golden State. I don't care about "foster vs. Josh" its about what lineups were working in one particular game.

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110119&game=INDGSW

You have accurately described what +/- measures. No one is arguing with your definition. What they are arguing with you about is the significance of the statistic itself. The fact is, this statistic alone does not tell you how much or how little the player in question affected his plus minus number. It alone can never be the beginning and end of someone's case for or against a player. It's far too limited for that.

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 07:12 PM
You have accurately described what +/- measures. No one is arguing with your definition. What they are arguing with you about is the significance of the statistic itself. The fact is, this statistic alone does not tell you how much or how little the player in question affected his plus minus number. It alone can never be the beginning and end of someone's case for or against a player. It's far too limited for that.

I used the stat to say Foster couldn't have been as horrible as Mackey has repetitively claimed both here and in the game thread, not to make a player comparison. If your centers play is "horrible", the team shouldn't be performing better. The opposing team should benefit from the horrible performance.

I brought josh's timeline in to show that there weren't any positive stretches for him the entire game except for a singular 1 minute. I never specifically even highlighted Josh's overall +/-. I am not even meaning to bash Josh, he was playing out of position out of necessity. I could have pointed two the 1 minute in the 4rth quarter Josh and Tyler played together(warriors went on a 6 point run and we pulled josh" but I thought the stats were more meaningfull.

Hicks
01-20-2011, 07:38 PM
I used the stat to say Foster couldn't have been as horrible as Mackey has repetitively claimed both here and in the game thread, not to make a player comparison. If your centers play is "horrible", the team shouldn't be performing better. The opposing team should benefit from the horrible performance.

He was being hyperbolic, as fans often are. You can't combat hyperbole; you just point out that someone is being hyperbolic when they are, if you want to make that your point. Otherwise, just speak your own opinion on Jeff and leave it be. You can't win in this scenario.

spazzxb
01-20-2011, 08:30 PM
He was being hyperbolic, as fans often are. You can't combat hyperbole; you just point out that someone is being hyperbolic when they are, if you want to make that your point. Otherwise, just speak your own opinion on Jeff and leave it be. You can't win in this scenario.

I am just responding to comments directed specifically at me. If you look you will see these are all post responding to times I was directly quoted. They are saying I am wrong(among other things) and I am defending my comments. My comment to you was to say that I am not trying to make plus minus the end all as you seemed to imply.

DaveP63
01-20-2011, 09:26 PM
George Canning said: "I can prove anything by statistics except the truth"

90% of all statistics can be made to say anything... 50% of the time...

BlueNGold
01-20-2011, 09:52 PM
At this point I watch the start... leave the game on and do some work on the computer in another room. Maybe check in every so often... if it's a blowout and the other team is taking it to the Pacers I turn it off. If it stays close I try and catch at least the last minutes of the 4th qtr. Other than that I have no interest in watching an O'Brien coached team at all. Ever!

I stopped watching last season's games because of Murphy and TJ. They stopped playing TJ so I started watching a bit more, but I couldn't stomach Murph...so switched it off again.

Now I'm hoping they play the young guys because I will watch that even if they are being poorly coached. Basically, I want to see George and Hans get out there and struggle through this mess. The hope is that it makes them better when a different coach and style is in place.

So, I can live with it...as long as Posey is not racking up big minutes. That might be enough for me to switch off again. But if George and Hans get burn, I'm there.

Mackey_Rose
01-20-2011, 10:37 PM
George Canning said: "I can prove anything by statistics except the truth"

90% of all statistics can be made to say anything... 50% of the time...

What's more, 78% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

joeyd
01-20-2011, 10:56 PM
It's hard to know what is going on that is right when you read some of these threads. Roy has been playing badly, but people think that he could have made a difference in the GSW game. How many people would have put a bet on that? Foster had been playing pretty well, not that most of his bashers would admit it. Then he goes 1 for 8, and all of a sudden, it's his fault we are losing. Yeah, he missed some easy buckets last night, and I wish he would improve on his %FT, but many of the Foster bashers don't realize that he often has to take shots with the shot clock running down, the result of heavily-guarded team mates making the only dish they can in desperation, because they have either held the ball too long or danced themselves into a corner, so to speak.

Then we have those that want the youngsters to play. So Hans plays, and George plays, and Price plays, and even McBob plays. And then the folks that wanted the youngsters to play complain about how gut-wrenching the result of the GSW game was.

Well, folks, we can't have it both ways. Play the youngsters? Prepare to see more games that are not the least bit competitive. Oh, but you say we will get a better lottery pick? There are a few teams worse than us according to the standings, and they likely will continue to be worse than us.

Keep playing Hibbert? Great idea. If he can stay free of foul trouble and do more than Foster when he is on the court. Otherwise, he might as well back of Foster. McBob? I like him, but there are positives and negatives that have been well documented in recent threads, and I side with those that want to see him play, but not at the expense of benching Foster, who really has in my opinion had one bad game (but really only in regard to %FG).

So what is right? George is getting more playing time. Most of us realize that he is a fantastic talent, and at Pacer-n-greets, I have heard several raving about him. I think he's the real deal.

Granger can play great, if he gets someone to complement him.

Roy has the gifts. He has a sweet shot and is a good outside shooter for a big. He can block shots. Just needs to get his head on straight and some good coaching. All fixable.

Collison has tremendous potential.

Foster seems healthy, and with the exception of the past game, he is the same old Jeff, giving us ORBs and second chance shot attempts.

Hansbrough is healthy. It's really his rookie season, and he has shown very good potential.

See, it ain't all bad!

90'sNBARocked
01-20-2011, 11:52 PM
Let's be honest here from a PacersDigest standpoint this pretty much was a dream come true.

No T.J. Ford, no James Posey and no Solomon Jones.

He started both Tyler & Josh and Paul George got some work.

So from that stand point really nobody should complain much about Jim's player selection. Of course there is always the point of inconsistency but frankly we are just so bad that one has to give him some passes on this.

However the reality is we just lost to the Golden State Warriors after we lost to the L.A. Clippers. Now no offense to either team as they are both improved but the fact is that losing to either team did not come as a surprise and that is the problem.

We are just not a very talented team, in all honesty and at this point in time I'm throwing my hands up in the air and saying I have no idea how to get to the point of being more talented.

Obviously drafting in the mid teens every year will give you a chance to get a good player (see Granger) but it really is not going to give you a chance to get a special player (see Griffin). But drafting a top 10 player is no guarantee of getting a special player either (see Dunleavy).

Trades are good but what team is going to part with a star player for what little we have and in all honesty would we have to trade away so much talent that what little we have here is left to help the good player when he get's here.

However I'm coming more and more to the belief that we are just going to let all of these expiring contracts expire and frankly that just depresses the living crap out of me. If we don't use them as the trade items then we will have nothing to trade away to get anything with.

Sorry folks this is not going to be a bright and shiny post at all.

I keep reading statement that the team is headed in the right direction and frankly I want to hit a wall when I read that anymore. What does that even mean? Does anyone truly believe that the group of players we have right now, you know the ones who can not beat the Warriors, Clippers, Bucks, Hawks, Bulls, etc. of the league is going to somehow morph into a team that will compete for a title in 2-3 years?

If you do then you have more faith than I do.

Hell I don't even blame O'Brien anymore (at this point in time what good would that do) beyond his player rotations and style of play.

But let me assure you Jim O'Brien does not cause Jeff Foster to miss a point blank layup or Mike Dunleavy to lay up some puffy soft shot to be swatted off of the board by a charging defender.

Yes I want a new coach just like most of you but that new coach is still going to have to have some new talent as well or we will once again be arguing over what 10th man should get more min. so we can stop the losing.

Believe it or not this is my fourth draft and this is the most optimistic and non depressing of the four. I had an odd thoughts all typed up and ready to send over to the front page and just deleted it because even I didn't like the tone of the post.

Yes losing is getting to me, to much I freely admit. But I invest a lot of time into following the club so to be once again at the half way part of the season (almost anyway) and knowing we are not going anywhere is just disheartening. I am now pretty much convinced that by this time next week we will be looking up at both the Bobcats and the Bucks putting us once again at 10th in the East.

If I could say that I saw a light at the end of the tunnel I would be happy to do so, but right now things look pretty bleak.

I am open to anything to improve the club now.


I feel your pain man, hence my earlier post about am I wrong to want the Pacers to lose

The last 3 years have been the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result

spazzxb
01-21-2011, 04:50 AM
What's more, 78% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Without useless statistics we wouldn't have pro sports. Everyone would just play Upwards youth ball and everyone would be a winner. As a person currently working on a graduate certificate in applied statistics, I can't tell you how much of a problem I have with your statement. A person can create misleading data. a person can abuse data. Solid statistics are also critical for the success of most organizations. The stats don't lie, people do. As long as you trust how the data was collected and interpret the data in the proper context statistics are always valuable. The problems are that people just cherry pick numbers and ignore the context and the fact that in many cases these become third party statistics infected with the spin of someone trying to gain an advantage. I didn't create the data and I was transparent in my methods of evaluation. I only heard about popcorn machine from seth the other day but it seems legitimate. I was going to avoid this thread but I am not going to let someone pretend like statistics aren't more reliable than a strangers opinion.

Since86
01-21-2011, 09:21 AM
2. In this game the team performed better when AJ was on the court.

It's obvious you didn't watch the game if you think the team performed better with AJ on the court, rather than Darren, or you just don't care.

Sookie is here on this board because of AJ, no other reason what-so-ever, and she has even made the point that AJ looked lost and didn't play well.

You're either not watching the games, or you're completely manufacturing arguments for the sake of you being right.

Either way, you're probably the only one who thought AJ played well, and definitely the only one who thought the team performed better with him on the floor rather than DC.

EDIT: And sports were around a lot longer than useless statistics.

Native Americans were playing sports, like lacrosse, way before they knew a2+b2=c2.

Statistics are used to measure, WHAT WE SEE. You observe and report your being told.

Take assists for example. There's no universal way to measure an assist. It varies from person to person. Therefore the statistic of an assist is dependent on that person.

No, I'm not saying all stats are like that. But when one is, and one that is of widespread use, you can't just throw out the concept of observation either.

Either way, sports did exist and will continue to exist with or without statistics. Useless or not.

owl
01-21-2011, 09:37 AM
Did anyone else think AJ looked tentative on his left leg?

Mackey_Rose
01-21-2011, 11:04 AM
Without useless statistics we wouldn't have pro sports. Everyone would just play Upwards youth ball and everyone would be a winner. As a person currently working on a graduate certificate in applied statistics, I can't tell you how much of a problem I have with your statement. A person can create misleading data. a person can abuse data. Solid statistics are also critical for the success of most organizations. The stats don't lie, people do. As long as you trust how the data was collected and interpret the data in the proper context statistics are always valuable. The problems are that people just cherry pick numbers and ignore the context and the fact that in many cases these become third party statistics infected with the spin of someone trying to gain an advantage. I didn't create the data and I was transparent in my methods of evaluation. I only heard about popcorn machine from seth the other day but it seems legitimate. I was going to avoid this thread but I am not going to let someone pretend like statistics aren't more reliable than a strangers opinion.

Good lord. This is exactly my problem with trying to debate anything with you.

You take everything way, way too personally and seriously.

That post was a joke. The fact that "you can't tell me how much of a problem you had that statement," which was nothing more than a joke, is extremely telling.

joeyd
01-21-2011, 11:14 AM
Statistics are used to measure, WHAT WE SEE. You observe and report your being told.

Well, you point out later that there are some stats with criteria that are less well-defined, like the assist.

However, in reference to the above quote, stats cannot measure intangibles, but the intangibles of a player can indeed lead to a team performing better when that player is in. Energy is one form of intangible. Balls deflected and tipped to team mates are not scored separately, and there are no stats kept for this, but they can lead to more second chance baskets, etc.

Since86
01-21-2011, 11:35 AM
Well, you point out later that there are some stats with criteria that are less well-defined, like the assist.

However, in reference to the above quote, stats cannot measure intangibles, but the intangibles of a player can indeed lead to a team performing better when that player is in. Energy is one form of intangible. Balls deflected and tipped to team mates are not scored separately, and there are no stats kept for this, but they can lead to more second chance baskets, etc.

There most certainly are stats that keep track of deflections and such. Jim O'Brien talks about it almost every press conference. They call them "energy stats." I don't know what all goes into it, but I'm pretty sure it's just a running tally of deflections, steals, offensive rebounds, and charges taken.

He routinely talks about getting above 50 (?) and if they hit that mark there's a pretty strong chance that it was in a winning effort.


Stats are used to evaluate on-court performance. They quanitify the effort that is being seen on the court.

New stats are created, and numbers are crunched, in order to find some type of equation to verify what is being said, as an observation. Advanced baseball statistics are designed just for this reason.

Blocks and assists used to not be a kept stat. Now not only are they kept, but they are apart of the "big" statistical categories that everyone keeps at all levels. (Points, rebounds, steals, assists, blocks, turnovers) ALL high school coaches keep those stats, but they might not keep deflections, and definitely not efg%.

That's the problem with him just saying "Look, foster has a +11!! Him being on the floor produces good results."

That's a stat with ZERO context. For all anyone knows, Foster could have played 5mins the entire game, scored zero points, zero rebounds, and his man could have never touched the ball resulting in him not allowing any baskets for the other team.

Foster could have done absolutely nothing to contribute to that +11, but he still gets credit for it.

+/- is an empty stat, without context.

And I think my point is made when he tries to say that the team performed better with AJ on the floor. Anyone who watched the game clearly saw that AJ struggled, and it wasn't even close.

Sookie
01-21-2011, 12:06 PM
Since,

I generally share your opinion on individual +/-.

With that said, it's not inconceivable that one player plays like crap while the other four more than make up for it, which would leave the crappy player with a positive +/-. Technically, that does mean the team did better with him on the floor. The distinction is that it doesn't say whether HE IS THE REASON they did better while he was on the floor or not.

Take AJ Price on Wednesday night. He played badly, we all know this. So odds are VERY good that he got a positive +/- in spite of his individual performance.

Technically, AJ may have done something we weren't noticing to help his +/-, but I think we're in agreement that he didn't and he just got lucky that his teammates performed well while he was on the court.

He was on the court at the same time as Paul George..who played extremely well and defended Ellis extremely well. That's probably why. AJ played better defense than Darren, but his offense was so bad it was pretty obvious which player was better and which player was helping the team more..

AJ also wasn't on the court with Josh much, whom also struggled quite a bit. And Darren happened to be on the court with Josh most of the time, and then Foster when Foster was tired.

I like +/- because it does measure things that other stats don't measure. And I don't like that quite often people say "it doesn't mean anything." Because things like the above can be explained away. ANY stat can be explained away.

For example "He was the best player on the court because he scored 35 points." Well..what if he took 50 shots. Or assists, haven't we seen enough of TJ to know what an empty assist looks like? Or Rebounds..um hi Troy?

Statistics are a nice piece of evidence to back up what people are seeing on the court. But they don't tell the whole story, pretty much ever.

Hicks
01-21-2011, 12:10 PM
Since,

First of all, I deleted my post because I thought spazz was referencing individual +/- (skimming posts FTL).

Anyway, I'm agreeing with you.

I'm just pointing out that when someone says that the 5-man with the highest +/- in the game was the most effective, that is technically the case based purely on the score. Nothing more, nothing less.

That does not mean I agree with spazz that Jeff Foster having a high +/- means he was the best big man. That also does not mean that I think AJ Price played well.

Hicks
01-21-2011, 12:10 PM
He was on the court at the same time as Paul George..who played extremely well and defended Ellis extremely well. That's probably why.

Probably.

spazzxb
01-21-2011, 03:54 PM
Since,

First of all, I deleted my post because I thought spazz was referencing individual +/- (skimming posts FTL).

Anyway, I'm agreeing with you.

I'm just pointing out that when someone says that the 5-man with the highest +/- in the game was the most effective, that is technically the case based purely on the score. Nothing more, nothing less.

That does not mean I agree with spazz that Jeff Foster having a high +/- means he was the best big man. That also does not mean that I think AJ Price played well.

I am aware price didn't play well. I was challenged as to why five people had a higher plus minus. In fact the poster said the couldn't wait for me to try and respond. I went through the five and explained how they got there. I tried to make it clear that the team performed better while AJ happened to be on the court. I use performance to mean output (score vs score) I didn't say he was our best pg. In fact I made a point to say what I thought was the most effective lineup.

Our most productive line up recently has been:
Based on my opinions but supported by statistics

pg: Collison,
wings: two of Rush, George or Dunleavy
PF: Granger
C: Foster (I want Hibbert to be better)

AJ played with the small ball lineup that has consistently been getting us back in games and primarily against backups. Foster played against both lineups so its not the same.

Are you saying Mcroberts or Solo are better than foster, or are you undecided? I think foster is a better center than Mcroberts because he is tougher, plays better post defense and doesn't get pushed around I don't need any stats for that. I also have noticed that josh seems to be more of a one step leaper than a powerful under the basket player. In the end of games Josh is also a bad free throw shooter.

Since86
01-21-2011, 04:13 PM
I am aware price didn't play well. I was challenged as to why five people had a higher plus minus. In fact the poster said the couldn't wait for me to try and respond. I went through the five and explained how they got there. I tried to make it clear that the team performed better while AJ happened to be on the court. I use performance to mean output (score vs score) I didn't say he was our best pg. In fact I made a point to say what I thought was the most effective lineup.



This is your response to me


You are implying far to much aggression behind my use of the word attack.

1. With Hibbert out Foster becomes our best center.(my opinion)
2. In this game the team performed better when AJ was on the court.
3. Dunleavy isn't as bad as people make him out to be, also see number 5
4. Hansboro earned the starting 4 position for a reason, seems to be our best PF
5. Paul George played well and is part of our small ball lineup that has been consistently good.

Our most productive line up recently has been:

pg: Collison,
wings: two of Rush, George or Dunleavy
PF: Granger
C: Foster

anything else ?

Please show me where you "went through the five and explained how they got there."

"Got there" being how they got the five highest +/- scores.

spazzxb
01-21-2011, 04:34 PM
This is your response to me



Please show me where you "went through the five and explained how they got there."

"Got there" being how they got the five highest +/- scores.

I was challenged to respond to this.

"I'm eagerly waiting to read your argument as to why the Pacers played the best why they were on the floor."

1-5 in my post were intended to do just this although I have used the word performed consistently.

Peck
01-23-2011, 04:58 AM
Before you're hanging from the ceiling with "Peck was here" scratched into the wall, let's see how this rotation looks if it's given more than a few chances to work. We're not always this bad with turnovers, AJ Price usually looks a lot sharper than this, and Josh usually doesn't look bad. Granted, Roy will probably push Josh back out of the rotation, but still.

I largely agree with you, but we're not quite done seeing what we have yet. And truthfully we never will this season because of Jim O'Brien.

We need to see this group with a different coach. It sounds like we very well might not make any trades (and that upsets me), but at the bare minimum we'll be adding talent this summer/fall/whenever-the-lockout-is-over.

Now my fear with that is it will be more mediocre talent, but we'll have to wait and see.

My hope for the future is on life support, but it isn't dead.

Well that didn't take long. Next game totally different rotation, same results though so you have to give O'Brien some credit for being consistant.

Hoop
01-23-2011, 05:15 AM
Well that didn't take long. Next game totally different rotation, same results though so you have to give O'Brien some credit for being consistant.
Ain't that the truth. I don't think there has been 3 games in row with the same rotation since he's been here. Seriously.

31andonly
01-23-2011, 05:39 AM
Ain't that the truth. I don't think there has been 3 games in row with the same rotation since he's been here. Seriously.

This is ridiculous.

Even the Blazers announcers were confused...McRoberts starts one day, then he's inactive the other day.

Still...42 games to go with O'Brien on the sideline :rolleyes:

spazzxb
01-23-2011, 07:14 AM
This is ridiculous.

Even the Blazers announcers were confused...McRoberts starts one day, then he's inactive the other day.

Still...42 games to go with O'Brien on the sideline :rolleyes:

Regardless of what you think of Josh, we were told Josh was starting at GS to preserve the rotations. It should have been expected that Josh wasn't playing. Josh wasn't playing before Roy got sick, did not have a good game while he was sick, and we new he was only playing while Roy because Roy was sick.

Bball
01-23-2011, 07:25 AM
Regardless of what you think of Josh, we were told Josh was starting at GS to preserve the rotations. It should have been expected that Josh wasn't playing. Josh wasn't playing before Roy got sick, did not have a good game while he was sick, and we new he was only playing while Roy because Roy was sick.

Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it makes much sense...