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View Full Version : If Blake Griffin were a Pacer.....



MunciePacerBabe
01-17-2011, 07:52 PM
he probably would be sitting the bench, too...maybe he would be on a rotation with who dresses and who doesn't...maybe he would be learning to stretch the floor or shoot a three! I have never seen a coach misuse his team like "you know who" (I can't even say his name anymore w/o getting upset).

Please help a sister out guys....I can't stand the dejected looks on our team's faces, the negative discussions on here and the disgusting comments of commentators who are not our homers talk about/make fun of our team that I have loved, loved, loved FOREVER....anymore! The joy has to be coming back...please say it is so. Maybe we can get an over 40 point performance from one of our guys one day, too. He can't though, if he has _____ as a coach.

BornReady#6
01-17-2011, 07:57 PM
Can someone photoshop BG in a Pacer uni? Preferably dunking.

vnzla81
01-17-2011, 08:01 PM
Is true if he was a Pacers he wouldn't be playing and Jim would have an excuse not to play him.

Sandman21
01-17-2011, 08:07 PM
No, he wouldn't sitting the bench as a Pacer.

Jim O'Brien would have been tarred, feathered, then run out of town LONG ago.

presto123
01-17-2011, 08:07 PM
We need a face of the franchise. DG is not it. Not enough personality and too inconsistent.

ballism
01-17-2011, 08:13 PM
Any coach would play Griffin. If he didn't, he'd get fired pronto. I think Jim would love Griffin, since he can do everything - move the ball, make 3s, penetrate, get position. Griffin would probably be the focal ball pusher in Jim's offense, like Hibbert was early on.

I too don't like the up and down minutes for our players, esp the young ones, but after seeing Griffin vs. Pacers, I think it's time to be silent about Pacers' future talent for a while.

MunciePacerBabe
01-17-2011, 08:18 PM
I agree that Griffin vs. The Pacers was something else to watch. He is a beast. Eric Gordon was impressive, too. I just think that we have talent (not as impressive), too. Let's just see that talent unleashed and used differently!

xBulletproof
01-17-2011, 08:22 PM
There's no basketball coach on planet Earth that would keep Griffin benched. No matter what league or rule set.

This is where legitimate complaints get lost in exaggeration.

pathil275
01-17-2011, 08:51 PM
If he was, McRoberts wouldn't see any playing time. Wait, that sounds familiar - Hansbrough and Posey are enough to let him rotten on the bench.

beast23
01-17-2011, 08:56 PM
Please help a sister out guys....I can't stand the dejected looks on our team's faces, the negative discussions on here and the disgusting comments of commentators who are not our homers talk about/make fun of our team that I have loved, loved, loved FOREVER....anymore! The joy has to be coming back...please say it is so. Maybe we can get an over 40 point performance from one of our guys one day, too. He can't though, if he has _____ as a coach.
Okay, I'm game. I've always been pretty good at guessing fill-in-the-blank puzzles. My guess is a-x, where x is a synonym for cavity. Am I at least close?

bulldog
01-17-2011, 09:00 PM
Oh come on, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

We do not have a Blake Griffin caliber player on our roster. Not one. Not even close. If he were a Pacer, Jim would play him.

For the love of..., I understand you guys don't like O'brien. I get it, I really do. You don't like the rotations, you don't like the way he manages minutes, you don't like the stretch offense, etc. But posts like this are just plain wrong.

And the reason it bothers me so much is that while all of our troubles are being blamed on O'Brien, no one is objectively assessing this pretty mediocre roster of ours. The players are average players, the team is oriented toward the future rather than present, and one of the reasons O'brien coaches the way he coaches is that no one near as good as Blake Griffin is on our roster.

esabyrn333
01-17-2011, 09:01 PM
Who cares about 47pts the guy didn't shoot a single 3 pointer what good is a PF that doesn't shoot 3's. Personally the Clippers can keep him. Just say NO to a PF that don't shoot at least 6 3's a game.

spazzxb
01-17-2011, 09:04 PM
JOB started Igoudala as a rookie. We don't have a Blake Griffin on this team.

Major Cold
01-17-2011, 09:11 PM
Does everything have to turn into JOB bashing?

spazzxb
01-17-2011, 09:13 PM
Oh come on, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

We do not have a Blake Griffin caliber player on our roster. Not one. Not even close. If he were a Pacer, Jim would play him.

For the love of..., I understand you guys don't like O'brien. I get it, I really do. You don't like the rotations, you don't like the way he manages minutes, you don't like the stretch offense, etc. But posts like this are just plain wrong.

And the reason it bothers me so much is that while all of our troubles are being blamed on O'Brien, no one is objectively assessing this pretty mediocre roster of ours. The players are average players, the team is oriented toward the future rather than present, and one of the reasons O'brien coaches the way he coaches is that no one near as good as Blake Griffin is on our roster.

There is nothing wrong with building towards the future. When rush starts we have the 2nd youngest Starting lineup in the league(I don't have a source but someone reliable said it). Long term I would say the roster is a little better than mediocre, however for the first time in Larrys tenure we have the resources to do something about it.

DonSwanson
01-17-2011, 09:17 PM
Griffin would be starting at PF because he'd be our best player at that position and it wouldn't even be close. The fact that he's a rookie really wouldn't have much to do with it. Andre Iguodala started 82 games as a rookie and averaged 32 minutes with O'Brien as his coach in Philly. An undrafted rookie started half of the Celtics games under O'Brien in 02-03. And the Chris Mannix, SI tweet from November should have been a good indication that many scouts around the league felt that the Pacers were throwing the ball into Hibbert too MUCH last season, not too little (i.e., why make it a point to develop a project like Hibbert?). Brandon Rush led the team in minutes, and now a guy who was second team all-WAC last year is cracking the rotation. So it's not like O'Brien is opposed to playing rookies or young players (I actually think his coaching career demonstrates that he keeps an open mind when it comes to playing younger players). But every team needs a few veterans to help round out the rotation and to settle things down out there. I see on another thread people are talking about Posey guarding Griffin, but actually when Posey checked in during the 3rd he did well on Griffin and knocked down some big shots. The Clippers looked like they were ready to run away and hide before Posey got in.

In general I feel that fans of any team (not just the Pacers) tend to overrate the young players on their team. A classic example of this is when some fans compare the Pacers situation with the Thunder from a year or two ago. Terrible example--If you have young players like Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, then obviously you play them because they are the best players on the team. Durant and Westbrook are both top 15 players imo. There was no trade-off between playing the kids vs playing the vets, b/c the young players are studs.

But then take a team like Detroit for example. You've got a young player like Austin Daye, who many Pistons fans feel should be playing more ("he's the future, blah blah blah"). Well, maybe he's a future backup.

Pacer in Your Face
01-17-2011, 09:20 PM
If blake griffn were a pacer i would cry tears of joy! haha.

I would love it if came to our team! lets go PACERS!!!!

AesopRockOn
01-17-2011, 10:04 PM
This is supposed to be funny, right?

pacer4ever
01-17-2011, 10:14 PM
we would win a NBA title in the next 5 yrs

d_c
01-17-2011, 10:39 PM
JOB started Igoudala as a rookie. We don't have a Blake Griffin on this team.

Yep, and Igoudala made 1st team all-rookie. He didn't shoot very many 3s either. He shot a career best FG% that year. JOB played him and he had a very good year.

aaronb
01-17-2011, 10:41 PM
Oh come on, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

We do not have a Blake Griffin caliber player on our roster. Not one. Not even close. If he were a Pacer, Jim would play him.

For the love of..., I understand you guys don't like O'brien. I get it, I really do. You don't like the rotations, you don't like the way he manages minutes, you don't like the stretch offense, etc. But posts like this are just plain wrong.

And the reason it bothers me so much is that while all of our troubles are being blamed on O'Brien, no one is objectively assessing this pretty mediocre roster of ours. The players are average players, the team is oriented toward the future rather than present, and one of the reasons O'brien coaches the way he coaches is that no one near as good as Blake Griffin is on our roster.


No kidding bro!

Two days ago we'd have jokers that post here saying they'd rather have Hibby, Hansbro, and McBob over Blake Griffin.
Likely the same folks who said Mike Conley would be the 4th String PG on our roster.

xBulletproof
01-17-2011, 10:53 PM
Yep, and Igoudala made 1st team all-rookie. He didn't shoot very many 3s either. He shot a career best FG% that year. JOB played him and he had a very good year.

That's false. He shot his career best FG% in his 2nd year.

d_c
01-17-2011, 10:55 PM
In general I feel that fans of any team (not just the Pacers) tend to overrate the young players on their team. A classic example of this is when some fans compare the Pacers situation with the Thunder from a year or two ago. Terrible example--If you have young players like Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, then obviously you play them because they are the best players on the team. Durant and Westbrook are both top 15 players imo. There was no trade-off between playing the kids vs playing the vets, b/c the young players are studs.


I think that's the nail on the head.

In the long run and in the bigger picture, there are much, much, much bigger issues than Jim O'Brien, I think that's something a lot of people here are choosing to sweep under the rug. JOB is an easy target, he's a convenient excuse, but he's not going to be around for more than a few more months. You better get your JOB bashing in now, because he's unlikely to be your scapegoat by the time May/June rolls around.

Pacers weren't playing for this year anyways. They are playing for the years when JOB will be long gone. I understand people don't like JOB, but I don't understand how people can't look at the bigger picture that goes past this season, when there WILL be another coach.

The bigger issue is the talent. The Pacers are a team built around middling talent made up from non-Top 10 picks from the draft. Meanwhile their competition is being built around high lottery/Top 10 picks.

As mentioned, of course teams like OKC and the Clips are going to play their young guys. It's because their young guys are supremely talented high draft picks who happen to be top players on their team and in some cases, upper echelon players in the league already. You can't compare the Pacers situation to the Thunder or even the Clips.

Larry Staverman
01-17-2011, 10:57 PM
Just an aside, did it cross anyone else's mind to double Griffen and take the ball out of his hands when he went north of 30 early in the 3rd while beating our defenders like unwanted step children??

d_c
01-17-2011, 11:04 PM
That's false. He shot his career best FG% in his 2nd year.

You are correct. 49.3% vs. 50%. Interesting to note that he hasn't shot over 47% since.

aaronb
01-17-2011, 11:08 PM
I think that's the nail on the head.

In the long run and in the bigger picture, there are much, much, much bigger issues than Jim O'Brien, I think that's something a lot of people here are choosing to sweep under the rug. JOB is an easy target, he's a convenient excuse, but he's not going to be around for more than a few more months. You better get your JOB bashing in now, because he's unlikely to be your scapegoat by the time May/June rolls around.

Pacers weren't playing for this year anyways. They are playing for the years when JOB will be long gone. I understand people don't like JOB, but I don't understand how people can't look
The bigger issue is the talent. The Pacers are a team built around middling talent made up from non-Top 10 picks from the draft. Meanwhile their competition is being built around high lottery/Top 10 picks.

As mentioned, of course teams like OKC and the Clips are going to play their young guys. It's because their young guys are supremely talented high draft picks who happen to be top players on their team and in some cases, upper echelon players in the league already. You can't compare the Pacers situation to the Thunder or even the Clips.


+10000000000

Beyond just the denial, people get downright angry.
Any suggestion the the Front office might be to blame. Or that these players aren't that good. Is met with some major vitrol.

Trader Joe
01-18-2011, 12:41 AM
Jim O'Brien would bench Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook and Lebron James and Dwyane Wade too !!!1111!!!!!111 LOLLERSK8Z

Sookie
01-18-2011, 12:43 AM
So uh..you think Granger plus Hans plus Paul George plus our next five first round draft picks would be enough to get Griffin?

Yea..I didn't either.

d_c
01-18-2011, 03:35 AM
+10000000000

Beyond just the denial, people get downright angry.
Any suggestion the the Front office might be to blame. Or that these players aren't that good. Is met with some major vitrol.

The front office is the one who hired JOB, has endlessly supported him and then picked up his 4th year option. Yet how much blame do they get compared to JOB himself? Very, very little from what I've observed.

If I'm the Pacer front office, I love having JOB as my human shield so he can serve to distract everyone away from the REAL problems that this team is going to face. It's worked extremely well for them.

ballism
01-18-2011, 05:53 AM
I think that's the nail on the head.

In the long run and in the bigger picture, there are much, much, much bigger issues than Jim O'Brien, I think that's something a lot of people here are choosing to sweep under the rug. JOB is an easy target, he's a convenient excuse, but he's not going to be around for more than a few more months. You better get your JOB bashing in now, because he's unlikely to be your scapegoat by the time May/June rolls around.

Pacers weren't playing for this year anyways. They are playing for the years when JOB will be long gone. I understand people don't like JOB, but I don't understand how people can't look at the bigger picture that goes past this season, when there WILL be another coach.

The bigger issue is the talent. The Pacers are a team built around middling talent made up from non-Top 10 picks from the draft. Meanwhile their competition is being built around high lottery/Top 10 picks.

As mentioned, of course teams like OKC and the Clips are going to play their young guys. It's because their young guys are supremely talented high draft picks who happen to be top players on their team and in some cases, upper echelon players in the league already. You can't compare the Pacers situation to the Thunder or even the Clips.

I agree with your point, but not with details. Clips aren't just playing their high picks. Yes, Griffin is that. And i suppose Gordon (7) and Aminu (8) can be called that. But Vinny is also playing DeAndre (a 2nd rounder), who really stunk for the first few months but now is paying off the trust with huge rebounding games, Bledsoe (late 1st rounder), who's been shown probably too much trust and cost them a few wins, and even Willy Warren once every few games (this year's 2nd rounder). What about Thunder's Ibaka?

Anyway, I agree with your whole point, we aren't that talented. But I also think Jim can't compare to Vinny or Scotty Brooks when it comes to trusting youngsters (not just high lottery picks) and letting them make their mistakes. Now, Jim will probably never start a season 1-13 with any team, but he also probably will never turn a lazy jumpy scrub like DeAndre Jordan into a double digit rebounding machine within a couple months.

If Jim was running the Clips, what's a better chance: DeAndre getting starts and huge minutes, or 30 years old, .450 3PT% Brian Cook starting as a stretch 4 with Blake at 5? Blake does look good at 5 and can do everything Hibbert couldn't as Jim's 5 the last few months.

DAVIDLOCKHART40
01-18-2011, 06:50 AM
Oh come on, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

We do not have a Blake Griffin caliber player on our roster. Not one. Not even close. If he were a Pacer, Jim would play him.

For the love of..., I understand you guys don't like O'brien. I get it, I really do. You don't like the rotations, you don't like the way he manages minutes, you don't like the stretch offense, etc. But posts like this are just plain wrong.

And the reason it bothers me so much is that while all of our troubles are being blamed on O'Brien, no one is objectively assessing this pretty mediocre roster of ours. The players are average players, the team is oriented toward the future rather than present, and one of the reasons O'brien coaches the way he coaches is that no one near as good as Blake Griffin is on our roster.



the team is oriented toward the future eh? then we have nothing to look forward to. wouldnt you agree?

Kuq_e_Zi91
01-18-2011, 09:45 AM
And the reason it bothers me so much is that while all of our troubles are being blamed on O'Brien, no one is objectively assessing this pretty mediocre roster of ours. The players are average players, the team is oriented toward the future rather than present, and one of the reasons O'brien coaches the way he coaches is that no one near as good as Blake Griffin is on our roster.

How much do we really know about these players? I don't believe we can properly assess this roster while O'Brien is still here.

And I disagree with every ounce in me with the idea that this team is oriented toward the future. If it was like you say, I wouldn't have to sit through Dunleavy's bricks, Ford bouncing the ball off his own feet, and Posey trying to guard Amare and Blake Griffin one on one. You want to focus on the future? Stop living in the past. These guys were good ages ago. Posey isn't the defender he used to be. Even then, he guarded perimeter players not athletic freaks like Amare and Blake or even Josh Smith. Sit these carcasses down and play the future if you really mean it.


Pacers weren't playing for this year anyways. They are playing for the years when JOB will be long gone. I understand people don't like JOB, but I don't understand how people can't look at the bigger picture that goes past this season, when there WILL be another coach.

If they're not playing for this year what are Dunleavy, Ford, Posey and even Foster (though he's played well) doing eating up valuable minutes while McRoberts, Price, Lance, and (in instances) Hibbert watch on the bench? Solomon Jones is ahead of McRoberts in the rotation right now! What future is that? The one that ends in 2012?

Do these players give us a better chance to win?

Do they help us build toward the future?

Or do we hope some team watches Dunleavy go 0-8, Ford dribble the ball of his feet, and Posey get pushed under the rim and think they would be a great addition to their team in a trade?

Don't tell me we're playing for the future when I have to sit through this ****.

And it's not the losing. I can take losing if there is growth and progress being made.

flox
01-18-2011, 10:15 AM
I agree with your point, but not with details. Clips aren't just playing their high picks. Yes, Griffin is that. And i suppose Gordon (7) and Aminu (8) can be called that. But Vinny is also playing DeAndre (a 2nd rounder), who really stunk for the first few months but now is paying off the trust with huge rebounding games, Bledsoe (late 1st rounder), who's been shown probably too much trust and cost them a few wins, and even Willy Warren once every few games (this year's 2nd rounder). What about Thunder's Ibaka?
Late means much later than 18. Also, he got a bunch of minutes when Foye and Baron both were injured- they will probably be lowered as they run back into the rotation. He's also their only backup point guard.

What about Ibaka? Do you see starting calibur centers on that team? Why would they draft Aldrich this year too then? He was picked 13th. Speaking of which, do you know where Aldrich is? Thats right, he's in the D-League.

DeAndre got consistent burn in his first few seasons. This is also his third year in the league. That's not even comparable.

Unclebuck
01-18-2011, 10:23 AM
In general I feel that fans of any team (not just the Pacers) tend to overrate the young players on their team. A classic example of this is when some fans compare the Pacers situation with the Thunder from a year or two ago. Terrible example--If you have young players like Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, then obviously you play them because they are the best players on the team. Durant and Westbrook are both top 15 players imo. There was no trade-off between playing the kids vs playing the vets, b/c the young players are studs.

But then take a team like Detroit for example. You've got a young player like Austin Daye, who many Pistons fans feel should be playing more ("he's the future, blah blah blah"). Well, maybe he's a future backup.

Amen

ballism
01-18-2011, 10:40 AM
Late means much later than 18.
Yea man, ok. It seems you took your time to understand the discussion. Extremely valuable input, thank you.

flox
01-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Late means much later than 18. Also, he got a bunch of minutes when Foye and Baron both were injured- they will probably be lowered as they run back into the rotation. He's also their only backup point guard.

What about Ibaka? Do you see starting calibur centers on that team? Why would they draft Aldrich this year too then? He was picked 13th. Speaking of which, do you know where Aldrich is? Thats right, he's in the D-League.

DeAndre got consistent burn in his first few seasons. This is also his third year in the league. That's not even comparable.



Late means much later than 18.Yea man, ok. It seems you took your time to understand the discussion. Extremely valuable input, thank you.

I'm sure that was the only part of my post. Besides, it's true. Most of the time I see 18 referred to as a middle first round pick.

naptownmenace
01-18-2011, 10:44 AM
Griffin would be starting at PF because he'd be our best player at that position and it wouldn't even be close. The fact that he's a rookie really wouldn't have much to do with it. Andre Iguodala started 82 games as a rookie and averaged 32 minutes with O'Brien as his coach in Philly. An undrafted rookie started half of the Celtics games under O'Brien in 02-03. And the Chris Mannix, SI tweet from November should have been a good indication that many scouts around the league felt that the Pacers were throwing the ball into Hibbert too MUCH last season, not too little (i.e., why make it a point to develop a project like Hibbert?). Brandon Rush led the team in minutes, and now a guy who was second team all-WAC last year is cracking the rotation. So it's not like O'Brien is opposed to playing rookies or young players (I actually think his coaching career demonstrates that he keeps an open mind when it comes to playing younger players). But every team needs a few veterans to help round out the rotation and to settle things down out there. I see on another thread people are talking about Posey guarding Griffin, but actually when Posey checked in during the 3rd he did well on Griffin and knocked down some big shots. The Clippers looked like they were ready to run away and hide before Posey got in.

In general I feel that fans of any team (not just the Pacers) tend to overrate the young players on their team. A classic example of this is when some fans compare the Pacers situation with the Thunder from a year or two ago. Terrible example--If you have young players like Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, then obviously you play them because they are the best players on the team. Durant and Westbrook are both top 15 players imo. There was no trade-off between playing the kids vs playing the vets, b/c the young players are studs.

But then take a team like Detroit for example. You've got a young player like Austin Daye, who many Pistons fans feel should be playing more ("he's the future, blah blah blah"). Well, maybe he's a future backup.

Excellent post! If anyone blames last night's loss on anyone except the players that failed miserably in guarding Griffin and Mike Dunleavy for shooting 1-10 from the field, they are very myopic.

ballism
01-18-2011, 10:56 AM
I'm sure that was the only part of my post. Besides, it's true. Most of the time I see 18 referred to as a middle first round pick.

Well, just to be clear, you did understand this whole discussion started with how late Pacers always pick compared to Clippers? Which is around 10-18? In this context, would it be fair to use the word 'late' next to 18?
I mean, that's the basic discussion here, we are picking late. We've been going on about this for a number of posts in a row. Ok, so you didn't care about the discussion and just wanted to post random objections because I made some fun of O'Brien. Well, I'm a man, I'm 40, I'll be ok, I've seen my share of trolls... why aren't you ok if im not taking your post seriously though.

Justin Tyme
01-18-2011, 11:18 AM
I think it's time to be silent about Pacers' future talent for a while.


I absolutely HATE your avatar of Lenin, father of communism. I believe it makes a political statement on a board that doesn't allow such, not to mention grates on vets who fought wars against communism. With that being said, your post about being silent about Pacers future talent has some validity.

Yesterday on the trade forum, a poster made a comment about DC being something like a top 7 PG in the league. PLEASE, he's not even close. A good case could be made he's south of the top 15. I understand fans enthusiasm about the youngsters, but with some it's to the point of HOMERISM.

We all know I'm probably the biggest non-Bird POB fan on this board, but when has Bird EVER had the opportunity to draft a player like Blake Griffin? NEVER! He has to pick from the 11-17 picks. Those picks other than Granger, who fell in his lap, don't have the talent of Griffin, Wall, Durant, Westbrook, etc. It takes good drafting with some luck as well to get top quality players. AND if you can't get the talent by drafting it, you need to trade for it. It's TIME for Bird to go after talent thru trades. The Pacers have enough role players, they need stars or almost star type players to contend. Has anyone noticed this morning the Pacers are now in 8th place with 3 teams behind them playing 500 ball the last 10 games while the Pacers have played 300 ball? At this rate, it won't be long b4 Pacers are out of the playoff picture hovering around the 10-11 in the draft. This team is in need of a major talent upgrade, and it's not going to come in the form of FA but trades.

bulldog
01-18-2011, 11:23 AM
Our team is future oriented because:
1) we have a "young core" of DC, PG, Hibbert, Hansborough (?), McRoberts (?). Furthermore Granger is expected to stick around as they grow.
2) We have massive salary coming off the books this summer.

aaronb
01-18-2011, 12:14 PM
We all know I'm probably the biggest non-Bird POB fan on this board, but when has Bird EVER had the opportunity to draft a player like Blake Griffin? NEVER! He has to pick from the 11-17 picks.


Which is why every other team that rebuilds cleans house and bottoms out. By not doing that management has given themselves a Chicken/Egg level of excuse that can be debated forever.

Justin Tyme
01-18-2011, 12:18 PM
Which is why every other team that rebuilds cleans house and bottoms out. By not doing that management has given themselves a Chicken/Egg level of excuse that can be debated forever.


Apparently, that's not what Herb and Mel Simon wanted to do. It's their money you are trying to play with.

aaronb
01-18-2011, 12:21 PM
Apparently, that's not what Herb and Mel Simon wanted to do. It's their money you are trying to play with.


It doesn't matter who's fault it is at this point. It was a serious err in judgement.

Justin Tyme
01-18-2011, 01:44 PM
It doesn't matter who's fault it is at this point. It was a serious err in judgement.


It's easy to spend other people's money, isn't it? I always found it was!:D

ballism
01-18-2011, 01:57 PM
I absolutely HATE your avatar of Lenin, father of communism. I believe it makes a political statement on a board that doesn't allow such, not to mention grates on vets who fought wars against communism. With that being said, your post about being silent about Pacers future talent has some validity.


There's no political statement at all. I have more reasons to dislike communist system than you, because I saw it from inside. Hundreds of millions of people died in this part of Europe during communist era. That said, Lenin has been mostly positive personality who reformed a very obsolete and opppressed society before Great Depression. He's still a cultural icon on many levels - literature, jokes, stories. Sure, his system ended up corrupted by Stalin and later leaders. But how someone would connect that picture with disrespect to American vets is beyond me.

ballism
01-18-2011, 02:01 PM
As for discussion, I agree. Front office should just have torn it all apart and restarted from zero. Instead they wanted to stay competitive and keep the fans, so they made that Murphy/Dunleavy deal which just got us stuck in the middle.

flox
01-18-2011, 02:06 PM
Well, just to be clear, you did understand this whole discussion started with how late Pacers always pick compared to Clippers? Which is around 10-18? In this context, would it be fair to use the word 'late' next to 18?
I mean, that's the basic discussion here, we are picking late. We've been going on about this for a number of posts in a row. Ok, so you didn't care about the discussion and just wanted to post random objections because I made some fun of O'Brien. Well, I'm a man, I'm 40, I'll be ok, I've seen my share of trolls... why aren't you ok if im not taking your post seriously though.

That's just not true. You say that they play their high picks and their late picks.

I don't see any late picks on their roster that see consistent burn.

pacer4ever
01-18-2011, 02:06 PM
As for discussion, I agree. Front office should just have torn it all apart and restarted from zero. Instead they wanted to stay competitive and keep the fans, so they made that Murphy/Dunleavy deal which just got us stuck in the middle.

100% correct should have not made that trade. Should have traded the clowns for expirings instead of Troy and Dunleavy

Eindar
01-18-2011, 02:15 PM
I know this attitude can make you a pariah on these boards, but for the the take-away from watching Blake Griffin play is that you can't rebuild on the fly if you plan on building through the draft. You have a definite need to bottom out and select in the top 5 for 2-3 years. I'm still not sure the Clippers will every be a title team because of their atmosphere, but you don't get a Blake Griffin or Kevin Durant drafting at 10-20 every year, and you're very unlikely to trade for him, either, at least not unless he's got significant baggage.

pacer4ever
01-18-2011, 02:19 PM
I know this attitude can make you a pariah on these boards, but for the the take-away from watching Blake Griffin play is that you can't rebuild on the fly if you plan on building through the draft. You have a definite need to bottom out and select in the top 5 for 2-3 years. I'm still not sure the Clippers will every be a title team because of their atmosphere, but you don't get a Blake Griffin or Kevin Durant drafting at 10-20 every year, and you're very unlikely to trade for him, either, at least not unless he's got significant baggage.

Most people say he is the nice ess kid u could ever meet

BlueNGold
01-18-2011, 08:00 PM
Oh come on, this is getting absolutely ridiculous.

We do not have a Blake Griffin caliber player on our roster. Not one. Not even close. If he were a Pacer, Jim would play him.

For the love of..., I understand you guys don't like O'brien. I get it, I really do. You don't like the rotations, you don't like the way he manages minutes, you don't like the stretch offense, etc. But posts like this are just plain wrong.

And the reason it bothers me so much is that while all of our troubles are being blamed on O'Brien, no one is objectively assessing this pretty mediocre roster of ours. The players are average players, the team is oriented toward the future rather than present, and one of the reasons O'brien coaches the way he coaches is that no one near as good as Blake Griffin is on our roster.

I agree with most of this, but why hasn't Jim improved this team's record since he's been here? That's the bottom line and he's not getting it done.

Most people praise Bird for trades and most draft picks, but the record shows no improvement.

Someone is to blame for that and I don't think it's Bird or the players who are getting more experienced and overall have more talent than in previous years. IOW, they should be winning more.

BlueNGold
01-18-2011, 08:06 PM
I know this attitude can make you a pariah on these boards, but for the the take-away from watching Blake Griffin play is that you can't rebuild on the fly if you plan on building through the draft. You have a definite need to bottom out and select in the top 5 for 2-3 years. I'm still not sure the Clippers will every be a title team because of their atmosphere, but you don't get a Blake Griffin or Kevin Durant drafting at 10-20 every year, and you're very unlikely to trade for him, either, at least not unless he's got significant baggage.

Excellent post. This is why the Pacers will need to build this team iteratively through multiple trades and timing a generation of players to grow together. Kind of like the Reggie era where the team stayed together a long time. Of course, we did pick Smits at #2 or something like that...

Trophy
01-18-2011, 08:11 PM
I agree with most of this, but why hasn't Jim improved this team's record since he's been here? That's the bottom line and he's not getting it done.

Most people praise Bird for trades and most draft picks, but the record shows no improvement.

Someone is to blame for that and I don't think it's Bird or the players who are getting more experienced and overall have more talent than in previous years. IOW, they should be winning more.

If I were Bird, I'd be pretty insulted if the guy I have as my coach isn't playing the young guys I worked so hard to get the majority of the minutes and looked at as the core guys at the position.

Bird's probably thinking that this is a playoff team roster which is really is and it could be a lot better.

Bird will figure out that it's now coming down to the coach.

He's done more than enough rebuilding the roster.

xIndyFan
01-18-2011, 08:19 PM
. . .The bigger issue is the talent. The Pacers are a team built around middling talent made up from non-Top 10 picks from the draft. Meanwhile their competition is being built around high lottery/Top 10 picks.

As mentioned, of course teams like OKC and the Clips are going to play their young guys. It's because their young guys are supremely talented high draft picks who happen to be top players on their team and in some cases, upper echelon players in the league already. You can't compare the Pacers situation to the Thunder or even the Clips.

jmo, but pacers do have a chance to be the new detroit pistons, 5 pretty good guys but no super stars, don't they. it depend on who they add in the summer, but couldn't the pacers win adding a decent big or two?

Justin Tyme
01-18-2011, 09:21 PM
But how someone would connect that picture with disrespect to American vets is beyond me.



Did you ever watch buddies die while holding them while being killed by those who adopted Lenin's grandiose idea of Communism? No more need be said!

xIndyFan
01-18-2011, 09:35 PM
100% correct should have not made that trade. Should have traded the clowns for expirings instead of Troy and Dunleavy

pretty sure the choice was jackson/harrington or murphy/dunleavy. don't remember too many other offers. just a guess, but if the pacers kept stephen jackson and old al, they would be the las vegas pacers by now.

BlueNGold
01-18-2011, 10:46 PM
Collison and Dunleavy for Jackson and Harrington doesn't look that bad now.

d_c
01-19-2011, 01:12 AM
jmo, but pacers do have a chance to be the new detroit pistons, 5 pretty good guys but no super stars, don't they. it depend on who they add in the summer, but couldn't the pacers win adding a decent big or two?

I know a lot people want to compare to what the Pistons did in the mid-2000s did, but I don't think the current Pacers warrant much of a comparison to those Pistons.

Chauncey Billups was the #3 pick in the draft, taken two spots after Tim Duncan. It took him a few stops to get it right, but the guy developed into the all-star PG that many people had envisioned when he was originally picked that high.

Rasheed Wallace was the #4 pick in the draft right ahead of Kevin Garnett. He was better than any bigman the Pacers currently have, and it's not really close.

Rip Hamilton was the #7 pick in what was a very strong draft in 1999. That's a higher pick than any Pacer that is considered a core player.

The Pistons didn't have a Kobe, Duncan or Lebron, no. But they had some very talented guys who were all-stars. Don't confuse that Pistons team with not having high level talent. They had high level talent, just not Top 8-10 type of talent.

d_c
01-19-2011, 01:22 AM
How much do we really know about these players? I don't believe we can properly assess this roster while O'Brien is still here.

And I disagree with every ounce in me with the idea that this team is oriented toward the future. If it was like you say, I wouldn't have to sit through Dunleavy's bricks, Ford bouncing the ball off his own feet, and Posey trying to guard Amare and Blake Griffin one on one. You want to focus on the future? Stop living in the past. These guys were good ages ago. Posey isn't the defender he used to be. Even then, he guarded perimeter players not athletic freaks like Amare and Blake or even Josh Smith. Sit these carcasses down and play the future if you really mean it.



If they're not playing for this year what are Dunleavy, Ford, Posey and even Foster (though he's played well) doing eating up valuable minutes while McRoberts, Price, Lance, and (in instances) Hibbert watch on the bench? Solomon Jones is ahead of McRoberts in the rotation right now! What future is that? The one that ends in 2012?

Do these players give us a better chance to win?

Do they help us build toward the future?

Or do we hope some team watches Dunleavy go 0-8, Ford dribble the ball of his feet, and Posey get pushed under the rim and think they would be a great addition to their team in a trade?

Don't tell me we're playing for the future when I have to sit through this ****.

And it's not the losing. I can take losing if there is growth and progress being made.


To answer this, I personally don't think AJ Price, Josh McRoberts or Lance Stephenson represent much of a future. The league is full of players who are better than these guys, and every year in the draft, there are additional players better than these guys who join the league. I think that by the time the Pacers are once again an upper echelon team that legitimately competes for a Top 4 seed in the playoffs, that the roster is going to look drastically different than it does now.

I think there are far bigger issues than Jim O'brien beause Jim O'brien is the easy part. His contract runs out at the end of the season and he won't be brought back and that'll be the end of that. That's not hard.

The hard part comes when Bird (or whoever happens to be GMing if he leaves) has to come up with a way to get higher level talent. You have to find a way to compete against teams that have spent the past few years picking higher in the draft and accumulating better talent. I realize a lot of people like the talk about JOB, but I think it's the convenient thing to do because people would rather not talk about the much harder issues that are going to be staring the Pacers right in the eyes.

Sookie
01-19-2011, 02:28 AM
To answer this, I personally don't think AJ Price, Josh McRoberts or Lance Stephenson represent much of a future. The league is full of players who are better than these guys, and every year in the draft, there are additional players better than these guys who join the league. I think that by the time the Pacers are once again an upper echelon team that legitimately competes for a Top 4 seed in the playoffs, that the roster is going to look drastically different than it does now.



That's nice that you think that..but we have no way of knowing it.

And that's the point. There's no reason to play Ford, Posey, or Dun. (well, maybe Dun) Why don't we see if we need an upgrade. See what the young guys can bring, and then we can address what are issues are. But we currently don't really know what they are.

This is when you evaluate. When you look at what needs to be done. Right now, we're just delaying it.

This team isn't going to be one with a few superstars on it. It's going to be a team that is, as I quoted "better than the sum of its parts" We aren't going to get a couple of all stars here, so we need them to be. And they have to learn and grow as a unit. And we need to decide what else we need as that unit.

O'brien's not doing that. Along with not doing that, he's not playing a game that fits a majority of the young core (heck, of the young core, I think it fits Josh and Price..oh crap) he's not teaching them anything positive except extreme professionalism.

You want to know what I don't get...we're supposedly less talanted than most teams right. Well how do you counter act that, at any level of basketball...you slow the game down. Hibbert wants to play half court, Hans does too. If we work the ball around we could probably get Danny a good shot too. But lets keep using the talent excuse..while we aren't utilizing the players that we do have.

So lets see..we aren't winning, and we aren't letting the young guys learn from their mistakes and play together. So what's the point?

d_c
01-19-2011, 11:29 AM
That's nice that you think that..but we have no way of knowing it.

And that's the point. There's no reason to play Ford, Posey, or Dun. (well, maybe Dun) Why don't we see if we need an upgrade. See what the young guys can bring, and then we can address what are issues are. But we currently don't really know what they are.

This is when you evaluate. When you look at what needs to be done. Right now, we're just delaying it.

This team isn't going to be one with a few superstars on it. It's going to be a team that is, as I quoted "better than the sum of its parts" We aren't going to get a couple of all stars here, so we need them to be. And they have to learn and grow as a unit. And we need to decide what else we need as that unit.

O'brien's not doing that. Along with not doing that, he's not playing a game that fits a majority of the young core (heck, of the young core, I think it fits Josh and Price..oh crap) he's not teaching them anything positive except extreme professionalism.

You want to know what I don't get...we're supposedly less talanted than most teams right. Well how do you counter act that, at any level of basketball...you slow the game down. Hibbert wants to play half court, Hans does too. If we work the ball around we could probably get Danny a good shot too. But lets keep using the talent excuse..while we aren't utilizing the players that we do have.

So lets see..we aren't winning, and we aren't letting the young guys learn from their mistakes and play together. So what's the point?

I wouldn't bother building my scheme around 2nd/3rd rate talent. Why do think Bird hasn't fired the coach by now? Because he plans on changing the talent along with the coach. He is not building a scheme/system around this current cast of characters, and I don't blame him.

The Josh McRoberts of the world are nice players to have. Nothing wrong with them, but you aren't playing in a vacuum. You're playing against teams that have better players than that.

Justin Tyme
01-19-2011, 11:32 AM
To answer this, I personally don't think AJ Price, Josh McRoberts or Lance Stephenson represent much of a future. The league is full of players who are better than these guys, and every year in the draft, there are additional players better than these guys who join the league. I think that by the time the Pacers are once again an upper echelon team that legitimately competes for a Top 4 seed in the playoffs, that the roster is going to look drastically different than it does now.

I think there are far bigger issues than Jim O'brien beause Jim O'brien is the easy part. His contract runs out at the end of the season and he won't be brought back and that'll be the end of that. That's not hard.

The hard part comes when Bird (or whoever happens to be GMing if he leaves) has to come up with a way to get higher level talent. You have to find a way to compete against teams that have spent the past few years picking higher in the draft and accumulating better talent. I realize a lot of people like the talk about JOB, but I think it's the convenient thing to do because people would rather not talk about the much harder issues that are going to be staring the Pacers right in the eyes.



Very nice post that's right on the money.

Justin Tyme
01-19-2011, 11:47 AM
That's nice that you think that..but we have no way of knowing it.

And that's the point. There's no reason to play Ford, Posey, or Dun. (well, maybe Dun) Why don't we see if we need an upgrade. See what the young guys can bring, and then we can address what are issues are. But we currently don't really know what they are.

This is when you evaluate. When you look at what needs to be done. Right now, we're just delaying it.

This team isn't going to be one with a few superstars on it. It's going to be a team that is, as I quoted "better than the sum of its parts" We aren't going to get a couple of all stars here, so we need them to be. And they have to learn and grow as a unit. And we need to decide what else we need as that unit.

O'brien's not doing that. Along with not doing that, he's not playing a game that fits a majority of the young core (heck, of the young core, I think it fits Josh and Price..oh crap) he's not teaching them anything positive except extreme professionalism.

You want to know what I don't get...we're supposedly less talanted than most teams right. Well how do you counter act that, at any level of basketball...you slow the game down. Hibbert wants to play half court, Hans does too. If we work the ball around we could probably get Danny a good shot too. But lets keep using the talent excuse..while we aren't utilizing the players that we do have.

So lets see..we aren't winning, and we aren't letting the young guys learn from their mistakes and play together. So what's the point?


The point is that the man that owns the Pacers wants to get into the playoffs in the worse way, and is willing to allow his FO to do it their way... which is playing vets. IMO, once it is determined the Pacers can't/aren't going to make the young'ns will then be played.

PacerGuy
01-19-2011, 12:02 PM
This Thread title should be renamed to:

"If my Aunt had a "sack", ...."

Sookie
01-19-2011, 02:14 PM
The point is that the man that owns the Pacers wants to get into the playoffs in the worse way, and is willing to allow his FO to do it their way... which is playing vets. IMO, once it is determined the Pacers can't/aren't going to make the young'ns will then be played.

But they aren't winning with the vets! The vets aren't very good. And yes, sometimes little things make a difference.

Like the other night, maybe if you put Josh in the game instead of Posey...Do I think he'd get beaten by Griffin..yes I do. But maybe..seeing as Josh is more capable of guarding Griffin...Blake only scores 40 instead of 47.

We aren't winning O'brien's way. I'm okay with sitting Lance down for Dun, because I do see the obvious advantage to that..but the other two is a poor decision. And poorer players are playing instead of better players that would help us win. With Ford and Collison..we are at least lucky that Collison is playing so well that Ford's minutes are extremely limited..but in the end..Small things do make a difference. Especially if we want to get into the playoffs..that means we have to beat the teams we are supposed to beat..aka close games..aka those bad but seemingly small decisions ARE a big deal.