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Shade
01-15-2011, 07:35 PM
If you could sign either of these free agents in the offseason, which one would you prefer?

spreedom
01-15-2011, 07:37 PM
West. Zach is clearly a better player, but he'll be A.) more expensive and B.) a higher potential of being a headache. Not a Z-Bo fan whatsoever.

vnzla81
01-15-2011, 07:37 PM
Neither, one is too small and the other one can't get out of trouble.

hoops_guy
01-15-2011, 07:41 PM
David West is currently better than anyone on our team.

West would be an amazing piece. Amazing. Him and Collison are the absolute perfect players to group together; they compliment eachother perfectly. Them, George, Granger (unless if he is traded..), and Hibbert (if he'll get over himself) will be a dangerous tandem.

xIndyFan
01-15-2011, 07:43 PM
i said west, since there is zero chance the pacers sign randolph. but i agree with vnzla. west would not be a good fit.

ballism
01-15-2011, 07:51 PM
West. Z-BO a bit younger and better, but West has huge character advantage. He is one of the smartest and best character guys in the league, afaik. Zach's Indiana friends might lead him sideways.
Neither of them is an answer to all our frontcourt problems. But would love either of them.

beast23
01-15-2011, 07:52 PM
Neither, one is too small and the other one can't get out of trouble.Too small? You do realize that Barkley was listed at 6-7 but was actually 6-4-1/2, right? West is 6-9 and 240 is a tough rebounder, good defender, an okay shot blocker, capable of shooting (and making a very good percentage) 18-foot mid-range shots, plays the PnR and PnP... and overall is one of the best PFs in the league.

Aren't you setting your standards a little high?

Maybe we can get him to hang himself from a bar all summer so that he comes into camp a full 6-11. Would that be more pleasing?

But you guys have got to be kidding yourselves. West would be an EXCEPTIONAL fit.

I would not want to sign West to a 5-year contract, but I would pay him solidly for a 3-year contract. If the new CBA sets limits to 4 years, then I would even give him a 4-year contract, if coerced.

vnzla81
01-15-2011, 07:58 PM
Too small? You do realize that Barkley was listed at 6-7 but was actually 6-4-1/2, right? West is 6-9 and 240 is a tough rebounder, good defender, an okay shot blocker, capable of shooting (and making a very good percentage) 18-foot mid-range shots, plays the PnR and PnP... and overall is one of the best PFs in the league.

Aren't you setting your standards a little high?

Maybe we can get him to hang himself from a bar all summer so that he comes into camp a full 6-11. Would that be more pleasing?

But you guys have got to be kidding yourselves. West would be an EXCEPTIONAL fit.

I would not want to sign West to a 5-year contract, but I would pay him solidly for a 3-year contract. If the new CBA sets limits to 4 years, then I would even give him a 4-year contract, if coerced.



Here we go with the Charles barkley thing.

Again I like West, I just don't think he is the right fit next to Hibbert.

Really?
01-15-2011, 08:01 PM
Neither...Don't like how either fits with our team...

beast23
01-15-2011, 08:09 PM
Here we go with the Charles barkley thing.

Again I like West, I just don't think he is the right fit next to Hibbert.I'm being totally serious with the following comment. I'm beginning to think that Hibbert himself may not be the right player to man the post for the Pacers.

So, my line of thinking is that West would be a great fit for the Pacers, even if they attempt to man him next to Hibbert. Unfortunately, Hibbert may not be able to perform up to West's standards, not the other way around.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 08:09 PM
neither, i would rather save our salary

4 who lol

King Phoenix
01-15-2011, 08:09 PM
I voted for zbo cuz of talent but I would love to get west I mean I can see Collisons assists and points going up, hibberts too. Has a great jumper, will grab a couple of boards for u and hibberts passing ability will be utilized with west. And why we at it how bout we get Thornton too; lol

Justin Tyme
01-15-2011, 08:19 PM
West is 6-9 and 240 is a tough rebounder, good defender,


West is a good PF, but a tuff rebounder at 7 rebs? He's average at "D".

Now with that out of the way, I'd rather have him than Zach. I'm not sure if he and Hibby would compliment each other, since neither is outstanding at "D" or rebounding. He definately would have a feel for DC's game, that's a +.

I Love P
01-15-2011, 08:29 PM
Neither. Signing one of them will put us around .500.

Hoop
01-15-2011, 08:31 PM
David West is currently better than anyone on our team.
NO! he is not. New Orleans would trade West for Granger in a heartbeat. We wouldn't though.

croz24
01-15-2011, 08:36 PM
West. Zach is clearly a better player, but he'll be A.) more expensive and B.) a higher potential of being a headache. Not a Z-Bo fan whatsoever.

not sure i'd go as far as saying zach is "clearly" the better player. how exactly have you come to that conclusion?

hoops_guy
01-15-2011, 08:40 PM
Let me say this and then I am done here; Some of you are setting your standards way too high. I can completely understand passing on Kris Humphries, Anthony Randolph, etc., but you do not pass on someone who is:

1.) A top player in the NBA
2.) Would become our best player
3.) Fits like a glove

Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, and Amare Stoudemire are not walking through that door. We have to make fit with what we have and what we can make. We chose not to tank for the past three-four years (and had we tanked like that, there would be no "Indiana Pacers"), so we are banking on Paul George being a diamond in the rough and we are banking on our draft picks being solid as well as having cap space.

If Danny Granger and Roy Hibbert aren't getting the job done, we don't worry about whether or not David West fits with them. David West would become the best players, and we build about him, Collison, and George. Right now the only players that I wouldn't want to trade are Darren Collison and Paul George.. Everyone else is pretty expendable (assuming that Roy never gets better). Tyler, AJ, Josh, Rush, and all of them are easily replaceable and Danny and Roy could be had for some very solid pieces and they aren't big pieces of our future (Roy is a "sell high" situation, and Granger isn't the man and he's getting older while not improving).

People that say "pass" on guys like David West and Kevin Martin are mistaking themselves if they think that a guy like Kevin Love is going to come along.

Right now our core pieces are Danny, Roy, Collison, and George. Collison and George are going to be All-Star level players, and they are producing for their age and lack of support from the coaching staff. Collison and George aren't going to win us anything by themselves in their prime. If we can get a good prospect center for Hibbert, and a young rising star for Granger as well as getting more solid picks and free agents, than we can get there.

But you can't pass on guys like David West, Nene, and Kevin Martin when they are knocking at your door.

Hoop
01-15-2011, 08:43 PM
4 who lol
Just cause we will have cap money doesn't mean we have to spend it on players that will not help us much. Putting us right back into the same situation we are in now, having to many overpaid mediocre older players.

A player/players/trade will come along, having extra money in our pocket will not burn a hole in it and if we don't spend it doesn't go away. Cap flexibility is something we should try to maintain.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 08:57 PM
Just cause we will have cap money doesn't mean we have to spend it on players that will not help us much. Putting us right back into the same situation we are in now, having to many overpaid mediocre older players.

A player/players/trade will come along, having extra money in our pocket will not burn a hole in it and if we don't spend it doesn't go away. Cap flexibility is something we should try to maintain.

We wont have cap flexablity once we have to resign DC and other we should get a solid PF. via trade or FA before our cap goes to re up all our own guys. Both these guys would make our team better BTW.

ChristianDudley
01-15-2011, 08:57 PM
I'd say David West. I'm a fan of both him and Zach Randolph, but I'm afraid that it will be just our luck if we'd get Randolph next year and then he'll be in decline-mode and then since he'd be back around all his "cronies" that he'd get involved in more stuff that he should stay away from if you no what I mean. David West is a solid player, though...he doesn't rebound like Zach, especially with tip-ins and such, but West is the safer route. And man can David West nail those mid-range jumpers...it's ridiculous how good he is at that. It doens't hurt that West is younger as well.

hoops_guy
01-15-2011, 08:59 PM
Just cause we will have cap money doesn't mean we have to spend it on players that will not help us much. Putting us right back into the same situation we are in now, having to many overpaid mediocre older players.



A player/players/trade will come along, having extra money in our pocket will not burn a hole in it and if we don't spend it doesn't go away. Cap flexibility is something we should try to maintain.


That flexibility will be long gone in a couple of years. We'll have to re-sign Collison, Roy, George etc..

Then we'll be stuck at 45 wins forever. We are in a tough position; it's not stacked against us, but we don't have that much time.

Collison/AJ
George/Rush
Granger/Rush
Hansbrough/Josh
Hibbert/Josh

Is never going to win us a lot of games in their prime (well, unless if George becomes what I think he can be).


DISCLAIMER: The following is wishful thinking. This likely won't happen. We'll likely be stuck with Roy and Granger for a long time.


We need a solid starting five as well as a very good bench within the next couple of years. If Hibbert doesn't get any better within the next couple of months move him for a solid center prospect like JaVale McGee (and use whatever else neccessary like give them a second round pick or whatever), sign West (a fringe All-Star), and trade Granger for a good starter and a young guy with star potential (like George).

I saw something a couple weeks ago like Wes Matthews and Batum for Granger so I'll use that for example. Batum can become a Pippen-lite (i've seen that thrown around a lot), and Wes Matthews is similar to a poor man's- shorter- Ron Artest in his prime. McGee can become a much better center than Roy can be considering youth and potential AND RECENT PLAY (Roy, this goes out to you: :mad:)



In the future

Collison/AJ (or a draft pick)
George/Wes
Batum/Rush/Wes
West/Hansbrough
McGee/Josh (or a draft pick)

sounds a lot better than Collison/George/Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert. This younger and higher potential team can be a homerun, or it can be what it would be like with Danny and others.

Of course this is somewhat far-fetched so I won't go any farther.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 09:03 PM
look what okc has done. they look for teams looking to cut salary and in return receive picks and young guys for giving other teams cap relief. we should be patient and do the same

We should have started that **** 5 yrs ago.

We dont have a Ray Allen to trade for a top 5 draft pick.


And we dont suck bad enoght to get a top 5 pick for 3 plus yrs .so it is kind of hard to follow OKC's modle

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 09:05 PM
That flexibility will be long gone in a couple of years. We'll have to re-sign Collison, Roy, George etc..

Then we'll be stuck at 45 wins forever. We are in a tough position; it's not stacked against us, but we don't have that much time.Collison/AJ
George/Rush
Granger/Rush
Hansbrough/Josh
Hibbert/Josh

Is never going to win us a lot of games in their prime (well, unless if George becomes what I think he can be).


DISCLAIMER: The following is wishful thinking. This likely won't happen. We'll likely be stuck with Roy and Granger for a long time.


We need a solid starting five as well as a very good bench within the next couple of years. If Hibbert doesn't get any better within the next couple of months move him for a solid center prospect like JaVale McGee (and use whatever else neccessary like give them a second round pick or whatever), sign West (a fringe All-Star), and trade Granger for a good starter and a young guy with star potential (like George).

I saw something a couple weeks ago like Wes Matthews and Batum for Granger so I'll use that for example. Batum can become a Pippen-lite (i've seen that thrown around a lot), and Wes Matthews is similar to a poor man's- shorter- Ron Artest in his prime. McGee can become a much better center than Roy can be considering youth and potential AND RECENT PLAY (Roy, this goes out to you: :mad:)



In the future

Collison/AJ (or a draft pick)
George/Wes
Batum/Rush/Wes
West/Hansbrough
McGee/Josh (or a draft pick)

sounds a lot better than Collison/George/Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert. This younger and higher potential team can be a homerun, or it can be what it would be like with Danny and others.

Of course this is somewhat far-fetched so I won't go any farther.

the bolded part is 100% correct

Hicks
01-15-2011, 09:06 PM
neither, i would rather save our salary

For someone better than David West??

hoops_guy
01-15-2011, 09:06 PM
We dont have a Ray Allen to trade for a top 5 draft pick.




Danny Granger.

hoops_guy
01-15-2011, 09:11 PM
What has David West done lately thats so impressive?

6 years of All-Star level play and a picture perfect PnR guy (will do to teams what Carlos Boozer did to us last night).

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 09:14 PM
6 years of All-Star level play and a picture perfect PnR guy (will do to teams what Carlos Boozer did to us last night).

yes i guess some people dont follow other players close. But David West get's overlooked a lot he is really underrated.

IUfan4life
01-15-2011, 09:19 PM
David West. and it's not even a little bit close

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 09:21 PM
Ray Allen = Granger

would the Cavs give us 2 first rd picks for their TPE?? I dont think so they are rebuliding


if they would then lets trade granger on draft night and start rebuliding the right way.

But the reason they got a top 5 pick for him was only because. The C's had two of the big 3 in place and needed the 3rd. I doubt they would have got a top 5 pick for Ray Allen if that team was rebulding so they were fournate that the Celtics needed a 3rd star to go with KG and Pierce.

spreedom
01-15-2011, 09:28 PM
not sure i'd go as far as saying zach is "clearly" the better player. how exactly have you come to that conclusion?

Higher scoring average, almost twice as many rebounds (worth noting that West is slightly better in most other areas). The fact that he's such a better rebounder does it for me. West has the best PG in the league setting him up, while Randolph has Mike Conley.

BringJackBack
01-15-2011, 09:42 PM
Put me down for West. He'd make us a lot better than we currently are.

We should trade Granger too before his stock goes down but that's another story.

Sookie
01-15-2011, 09:52 PM
Neither.

Hoop
01-15-2011, 09:56 PM
We wont have cap flexablity once we have to resign DC and other we should get a solid PF. via trade or FA before our cap goes to re up all our own guys. Both these guys would make our team better BTW.
These guys "might" make us marginally better. I don't want any part of Zebo, I like West, but I don't want to over pay him. Does the combo of Granger, DC, West and the rest make us a contender, not IMO, unless PG really blows up the next couple of seasons.

I want to be a contender not a water treader, like we've been for years and years. If the young guys we have now are not turning into the players that make us contenders, we need to trade them or not resign them and start over. We hang on to guys to long, we value the players we have to much at times.

It seems, being really bad pays off more times than not. I use to think teams that are always starting over were the dumb ones, now they are looking a lot smarter. Those type of teams seem to bounce back faster than we have. The Bulls have started over from scratch about 4 times since Jordan left while we are still treading water, who's in a better position right now. We need a change of philosophy.

I guess I'm just ranting, cause I really don't know what we have or where we are heading. We all know who most of that blame goes on.

beast23
01-15-2011, 10:36 PM
These guys "might" make us marginally better. I don't want any part of Zebo, I like West, but I don't want to over pay him. Does the combo of Granger, DC, West and the rest make us a contender, not IMO, unless PG really blows up the next couple of seasons.

I want to be a contender not a water treader, like we've been for years and years. If the young guys we have now are not turning into the players that make us contenders, we need to trade them or not resign them and start over. We hang on to guys to long, we value the players we have to much at times.I agree with a lot of what you say, but from a different perspective. I, too, do not want to be a "water treader". I also believe that you evaluate the talent that you have, attempt to extrapolate the upside of your players and move on when necessary.

Simply adding West to this team will NOT make us a contender next season or even the year after that, at least not without continued and significant improvement from Collison, Hibbert, Rush, George, Price and Hansbrough... or their replacements.

But let's take a look at the players involved. Which of the players that we are talking about are currently good enough to play significant roles on teams that could contend for a championship.

Collison would not start for any contending team at this time but is probably good enough to be the backup PG for most of them. Another year playing under a new coach and perhaps Collison is good enough that his name will begin being used in the same sentences as some of these other PGs.

Granger is good enough to start for some contending teams, but depending on the team may be forced to play a position outside of his comfort zone of SF. On the teams that he is not good enough to start for, he would be the first wing off the bench.

Rush would not start for any contending team, but would probably see minutes each game as a backup wing.

Hibbert would not start for any contending team. I'm not certain he would even be in the four man rotation of bigs for any contending team.

Among current players, that's it.

Now let's consider West. West would probably be a starter for one or more contending teams, especially those that rely quite a bit on PnR and PnP. West would probably see more minutes per game on a contending team than any of our current players.

So, my stance with West is that you pick him up because he is a player that could and would be a significant piece on a contending team. The problem with the Pacers not being a contending team after West's acquisiton would not be because West is not good enough to make us so. It would be because the current player's are not good enough in conjunction with West's acquisition to make us so.

Saying that West would not make us a contender would be placing the cause of our inability to contend on the wrong player.

Trophy
01-15-2011, 11:31 PM
I can't look at Zach Randolph and not think of his off the court issues and an arrest in Indy no less.

I'd say David West anyway. I like his game and I think he'd fit well with Roy, Danny, and DC who he is already familiar with.

Scot Pollard
01-16-2011, 12:09 AM
Danny Granger.

i cant believe how people are writing off danny

i mean he was a leader and the hero 2 years ago and even last season

its upsetting

if he was the 25.8 points guy and the improved defense and with this young talented team we'd be so much better

this has nothing to do with his plantar facitis injury last season because he came right back and didnt miss a beat

this is all a mental thing and danny needs to work with someone on his shooting again to raise his confidence

we need to see him and paul george play together

Doddage
01-16-2011, 12:36 AM
Neither. I'd rather trade for Luis Scola.

hoops_guy
01-16-2011, 02:57 AM
i cant believe how people are writing off danny

i mean he was a leader and the hero 2 years ago and even last season

its upsetting

if he was the 25.8 points guy and the improved defense and with this young talented team we'd be so much better

this has nothing to do with his plantar facitis injury last season because he came right back and didnt miss a beat

this is all a mental thing and danny needs to work with someone on his shooting again to raise his confidence

we need to see him and paul george play together

I'm not writing him off. He's a very good scorer, not a leader or hero nonetheless. But we should trade him while his stock is high.

If he averaged 25.8 with improved defense he'd land us a freaking beast-mode very young player and some picks. Right now he'd just land us a very nice young player and a pick.

If we have to worry about Hibbert and Granger feeling sorry for themselves all the time we need to look at either getting them significantly less touches or realizing that top scoring options don't feel sorry for themselves. Or trade them before we overpay to extend them, and start a real rebuild in the mold of OKC how they traded Ray Allen for some picks.

I'd like to see him and Paul George play together too.

dohman
01-16-2011, 10:55 AM
I have not seen west play. But I do know that collinson was averaging 20 and 9 with him as his main go to guy. Why not bring in someone that can score that already has a good relationship with dc.

Shade
01-16-2011, 10:57 AM
For those saying "neither," who would you rather have that can realistically be acquired?

Shade
01-16-2011, 10:59 AM
I'm not writing him off. He's a very good scorer, not a leader or hero nonetheless. But we should trade him while his stock is high.

If he averaged 25.8 with improved defense he'd land us a freaking beast-mode very young player and some picks. Right now he'd just land us a very nice young player and a pick.

If we have to worry about Hibbert and Granger feeling sorry for themselves all the time we need to look at either getting them significantly less touches or realizing that top scoring options don't feel sorry for themselves. Or trade them before we overpay to extend them, and start a real rebuild in the mold of OKC how they traded Ray Allen for some picks.

I'd like to see him and Paul George play together too.

Developing your good young players and then trading them for new young players is generally how a team ends up in perpetual rebuild mode.

We're at the point where we need to win now. Rebuild time is over.

ballism
01-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Developing your good young players and then trading them for new young players is generally how a team ends up in perpetual rebuild mode.

We're at the point where we need to win now. Rebuild time is over.

Agreed, getting a 31 year old on a long deal and then trading away every good 24-30 player for youngsters makes no sense.
If we get West, Granger and Hibbert have to stay, or get traded for players who help us win during the next 5 years.

dohman
01-16-2011, 11:57 AM
i cant believe how people are writing off danny

i mean he was a leader and the hero 2 years ago and even last season

its upsetting

if he was the 25.8 points guy and the improved defense and with this young talented team we'd be so much better

this has nothing to do with his plantar facitis injury last season because he came right back and didnt miss a beat

this is all a mental thing and danny needs to work with someone on his shooting again to raise his confidence

we need to see him and paul george play together


I do not even think its that. he often looks mad out there. I mean like pissed off. Watch his expressions and his body language. He is not having any fun this season and I think its affecting his performance.

I do not know what the cause is. Not getting the ball in spots where he wants it. not liking the offense. Not hitting shots. But something is pissing him off.

vnzla81
01-16-2011, 12:22 PM
For those saying "neither," who would you rather have that can realistically be acquired?

If Denver goes into rebuilding mode I hope we try to get Nene, it also looks like Houston is looking to make a move and maybe Scola could be available, I was going to mention Varejao but it looks like he is out for the year.

Like I said before I like West, I just don't think he is the type of PF Roy needs next to him.

BringJackBack
01-16-2011, 12:28 PM
Let me say that I think Nene would be good for us in a unique way. Not really better than Scola or West, but Nene's .640 fg% would really, really help us when we're in a scoring drought. Not to mention he's closer to 7'1" than 6'11" as a center/power forward, and he can really disrupt passing lanes and play hell of post defense.

xIndyFan
01-16-2011, 12:35 PM
Let me say that I think Nene would be good for us in a unique way. Not really better than Scola or West, but Nene's .640 fg% would really, really help us when we're in a scoring drought. Not to mention he's closer to 7'1" than 6'11" as a center/power forward, and he can really disrupt passing lanes and play hell of post defense.

don't know if nene is really 7' tall or not. he looks shorter on the court. but from my seats, it is easy to misjudge heights. he is the kind of guy the pacer need, imo. a guy that can play both the 4 and 5. and play decent defense at both spots. pacers need the full sized big instead of an undersized guy like west.

BringJackBack
01-16-2011, 12:40 PM
...I don't know.. He looks awful tall.

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Here's for reference. He's taller than seven footer Krstic.

vnzla81
01-16-2011, 12:40 PM
Here is Chad Ford's take on Houston and what are they looking for, would you trade Danny(star?) for Scola and Martin? what kind of package would you send?


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/36249


Chad Ford (1:31 PM)


Possible. Rockets are very, very active right now. Virtually everyone on the team is for sale for the right price ... I've heard Yao, Kevin Martin, Luis Scola, Battier all mentioned. Rockets want/need a star right now and are willing to package players together to get it. Problem is their talent level is solid, but overpaid. Martin and Scola are good, but few teams want those contracts. Yao is solid as an expiring contract, but there are tons of those floating around. If you believe Yao will come back, could be some value there, but he's an unrestricted free agent this summer

BringJackBack
01-16-2011, 12:47 PM
I swear if we do nothing this trade deadline- or even worse, free agency- I will be pissed. I've been waiting too long for this.

ballism
01-16-2011, 12:52 PM
Danny(star?)

Indeed. Danny = Kevin Martin. Danny is a healthier but less efficient Kevin Martin. Not exactly a bigger 'star'.

I don't see much point for Houston to get Danny for Martin alone, surely they wouldn't add Scola there.

BringJackBack
01-16-2011, 12:56 PM
Indeed. Danny = Kevin Martin. Danny is a healthier but less efficient Kevin Martin. Not exactly a bigger 'star'.

I don't see much point for Houston to get Danny for Martin alone, surely they wouldn't add Scola there.

To clear cash because Scola is 30 and Martin is somewhat overpaid. Give them Danny and a first for Martin and Scola. Therefore they save near $8 million and grab a first while getting Danny.

I think they're kidding themselves if they think they are getting anything more than a Danny/Gerald Wallace/Igoudala type player.

CableKC
01-16-2011, 01:16 PM
I'd rather just trade for Kevin Martin. I'd consider Expiring Contract + 1st round pick.

As for ZBo or West....I'd go with West....he has a very solid mid-range game, appears to be atheltic and has some familiarity with DC.

ballism
01-16-2011, 01:21 PM
To clear cash because Scola is 30 and Martin is somewhat overpaid. Give them Danny and a first for Martin and Scola. Therefore they save near $8 million and grab a first while getting Danny.

I think they're kidding themselves if they think they are getting anything more than a Danny/Gerald Wallace/Igoudala type player.

Hey, they are Houston... You know, New York, Chicago, LA, Houston, Dallas, those teams can afford stuff. They don't 'clear cash' if it means randomly downgrading talent. Houston haven't done 'cutting salaries' for a long time now. They are one of the few franchises that go for winning no matter the costs. So what makes us expect they'll change it now?

Honestly, if I'm Houston's owner, why would I get one of Danny/Gerald Wallace/Igoudala for Martin+Scola? Martin alone is better than any of those guys, health is the only question mark with him. Martin is payed what Danny is payed, Scola is payed 7-11 mil a year, which is actually pretty cheap for his game this year.

So again, why would Houston do this? They are losing talent, they aren't getting any good picks or prospects to rebuild with, they basically lose a Scola and replace Martin with someone who is payed same salary but is less efficient. Where does this trade help them?

If I'm Houston's owner, I'm either blowing the team up for good draft picks and rebuild in the 2012 FA market with Howard/CP3/D-Will and so on. Or I'm waiting it out and trying to get a real star for expirings, picks and all the other assets I have. What i don't do is waste everything for a Danny Granger.

vnzla81
01-16-2011, 01:28 PM
I think a package of Danny+ Picks+expirings could get it done.

Doddage
01-16-2011, 07:40 PM
For those saying "neither," who would you rather have that can realistically be acquired?
My wishlist:
Favors
Varejao
Scola
Perkins
Larry Sanders
Splitter

And then there's the hard-to-get guys like Josh Smith, Love, etc.

xBulletproof
01-16-2011, 07:53 PM
My wishlist:
Favors
Varejao
Scola
Perkins
Larry Sanders
Splitter

And then there's the hard-to-get guys like Josh Smith, Love, etc.

Favors isn't realistic.

Doddage
01-16-2011, 09:03 PM
Favors isn't realistic.
Eh, I don't necessarily think so. Offer them Granger and take Outlaw's albatross off their hands and that's a reasonable starting point.

pwee31
01-16-2011, 09:15 PM
If it was strictly based off talent I take Zach Randolph. When you bring in other influences.. David West is the easy choice

PacersPride
01-17-2011, 12:43 PM
Like the Kevin Martin idea, along with signing West. always was a little bit reminded of Reggie Miller when I would see kevin martin play.

Would like the Martin/West upgrade considerably. Do not want to lose Danny Granger to get him though.

CableKC
01-17-2011, 01:48 PM
Like the Kevin Martin idea, along with signing West. always was a little bit reminded of Reggie Miller when I would see kevin martin play.

Would like the Martin/West upgrade considerably. Do not want to lose Danny Granger to get him though.
I know that it's a subtle reference....but I can slightly agree with that analogy. I've always liked Kevin Martin cuz he's a highly efficient Scoring SG that can hit the 3 and his FTs. The only problem is his durability.

With the platoon of Wing Players the Rockets have and the likely direction that they are taking now that Yao is going to retire.....they right now have Courtney Lee, Terrence Williams, Kevin Martin, Chase Budinger and Shane Battier in the SG/SF rotation. I'd hope that the Rockets are looking to shed some Salary...most notably at the SG/SF rotation.

As mentioned before...if we could get Kevin Martin for an Expiring and a 1st round pick...I'd consider it.

xBulletproof
01-17-2011, 02:27 PM
Eh, I don't necessarily think so. Offer them Granger and take Outlaw's albatross off their hands and that's a reasonable starting point.

If I'm offering Granger, I'm certainly not taking a crappy contract. Giving up a borderline All Star on a good contract to take back a crappy one? Meh. We just got away from that, I'm not willingly taking one on unless I'm getting the best player in the deal guaranteed. Favors is far from a guarantee.

beast23
01-17-2011, 02:39 PM
I know that it's a subtle reference....but I can slightly agree with that analogy. I've always liked Kevin Martin cuz he's a highly efficient Scoring SG that can hit the 3 and his FTs. The only problem is his durability.

With the platoon of Wing Players the Rockets have and the likely direction that they are taking now that Yao is going to retire.....they right now have Courtney Lee, Terrence Williams, Kevin Martin, Chase Budinger and Shane Battier in the SG/SF rotation. I'd hope that the Rockets are looking to shed some Salary...most notably at the SG/SF rotation.

As mentioned before...if we could get Kevin Martin for an Expiring and a 1st round pick...I'd consider it.I would certainly consider acquiring a top shelf SG, but would not prioritize it ahead of acquiring a top shelf player at PF. And certainly not at the expense of being able to re-sign some of our own players in a couple of years.

With SG, it's sort of a pick your poison situation in acquiring some of hte players mentioned. With Martin, you get a great and extremely efficient offensive player, but there is the durability issue, as well as the fact that he is a poor defender. Certainly having a very good defensive PG and PF to go along with Granger at SF would make Martin more workable. But Martin would definitely become the primary scorer and take a lot of pressure off of Granger.

With Iguodala, you get a great defender, rebounder and passer, and a player capable of scoring that is not efficient or a "shooter". Make no mistake, there is nothing efficient about Iguodala's scoring, and he is a below average 3-point shooter for the SG position.

Martin has 2 more years left after this one at 12M and 13M. Iguodala has 2 more years at 13.5M and 14.7M with a 3rd year player option at 16M that he would probably be almost certain to take.

Adding either salary to the team and signing a PF for 8M or above (more likely 10M or 12M if we can get a really good one) would probably cause a few problems for the salary structure in another year or so as we begin attempting to re-sign our younger players to their second contracts.

oxxo
01-17-2011, 04:16 PM
I swear if we do nothing this trade deadline- or even worse, free agency- I will be pissed. I've been waiting too long for this.

Doing something just for the sake of doing something only hurts the franchise.

Just like how waiting and not wasting our pick/assets on a backup PG ended up with us getting Collison. Or how the Knicks/Nets are about to ruin their future by gutting their teams for Carmelo ("hey we cleared this cap space for Lebron, we should use it on SOMETHING!").

BringJackBack
01-17-2011, 04:21 PM
Doing something just for the sake of doing something only hurts the franchise.

Just like how waiting and not wasting our pick/assets on a backup PG ended up with us getting Collison. Or how the Knicks/Nets are about to ruin their future by gutting their teams for Carmelo ("hey we cleared this cap space for Lebron, we should use it on SOMETHING!").

Picking up Martin, Scola, Iggy, West, or Gerald Wallace isn't making a move to make a move.

wintermute
01-17-2011, 04:28 PM
Why does everyone seem to assume that we can get David West if we want him? New Orleans still have Bird rights to him. He's their second best player and I'd bet Chris Paul would be greatly ticked off if the Hornets let him walk. Plus the Hornets have a couple of expiring contracts this year (Banks and Green) to give them a little financial relief, so even if we overpay the Hornets might well be able to afford a rich offer.

ballism
01-17-2011, 04:39 PM
Why does everyone seem to assume that we can get David West if we want him? New Orleans still have Bird rights to him. He's their second best player and I'd bet Chris Paul would be greatly ticked off if the Hornets let him walk. Plus the Hornets have a couple of expiring contracts this year (Banks and Green) to give them a little financial relief, so even if we overpay the Hornets might well be able to afford a rich offer.

Well I guess everyone is just unsure about their ownership situation. Since NBA controls that team, do they want to commit with a big contract and compete? Or would they prefer low future commitments, low expenses, and sell the team fast and high?
My guess would be they'll be very conservative with free agency, and only take on no-miss deals.

beast23
01-17-2011, 05:24 PM
Why does everyone seem to assume that we can get David West if we want him? New Orleans still have Bird rights to him. He's their second best player and I'd bet Chris Paul would be greatly ticked off if the Hornets let him walk. Plus the Hornets have a couple of expiring contracts this year (Banks and Green) to give them a little financial relief, so even if we overpay the Hornets might well be able to afford a rich offer.New Orleans is already committed to 50M for next season, and have 4 additonal roster spots to fill. They also have 3 players coming off of rookie contracts to either release, trade or re-sign, bringing their total number of roster slots in limbo to 7.

West can earn much more than what his option is for next season and will probably opt out That will bring their salaries down to 43M committed with 8 roster slots to fill. Their salaries, apart from West's are:
Paul 16.4M Okafur 12.5 M Ariza 6.8M

That totals 35.7M for just 3 players. West makes 8.3M this season and is scheduled to make 7.5 next season, but will probably be paid 10-12M in a new contract. That would put New Orleans at 44M to 46M for just 4 players, without even adding in the salaries of the other 4 players on the roster and the 7 other players that must be re-signed or signed as free agents.

New Orleans is between a rock and a hard spot. If they re-sign West, it seems like they will be looking at 55M to fill out half their roster with very marginal players. If they re-sign their own players at contract values suggested by their qualifying offers, that alone is enough to put their team salary above 60M.

If a team were to make West an offer for $10M, New Orleans may be unwilling to match it. You make him an offer for $12M, and I'd almost bet my house that New Orleans would be begging for a sign-and-trade to get something (players and a pick) out of the deal.

New Orleans best bet is for someone to take Okafur, but there are no takers considering the length of his contract. And they are not about to let Paul go willingly. The only thing is that Paul will leave after next season because losing West this summer will make them worse. It would seem that New Orleans only smart move is to initiate a rebuilding process and acquire young prospects and draft choices.

But at any rate, I believe West is VERY available this summer, it is just a matter of whether he would be willing to sign with the Pacers.

wintermute
01-17-2011, 07:19 PM
beast - I think you're missing a few Hornets. Our old friend Jarrett Jack would still be there, Pondexter is still under a rookie contract, and Aaron Gray has a player option, according to Hoopshype anyway. Regardless, I don't think it materially changes your point; however, I just don't agree with that argument.

The way I see it, New Orleans is facing a salary bump for West from $7.5m to the $10-12m range. That's not an excessive raise - basically the equivalent of maybe 1, at most 2 bench players. That shouldn't be enough to make New Orleans decide to break up their team.

Consider Atlanta - a lot of people thought they couldn't afford to re-sign Horford with all the other large contracts they have in place, but they did anyway. Or Utah, who went into the tax for Millsap. In my view, getting West under contract should be of more value to the Hornets at this stage than financial flexibility. Even if they do decide to tear it down later on (e.g. forced exit by Chris Paul), West would still be a valuable enough chip to get rebuilding pieces with.

Maybe ballism is right that the Hornets will be handcuffed pending new ownership. Beyond that, I don't see a major issue for the Hornets.

pwee31
01-17-2011, 09:20 PM
Yeah good teams can afford to go into the tax, b/c they can afford to cut cost and not regret it.

Take the Jazz, they trade Maynor and Brewer to avoid luxury problems. That's to solid young talents. They were able to let Boozer walk to the Bulls, but they're still competitive and were able to get Al Jefferson as well.

The Hornets have done the same. Simply trading players and picks to avoid luxury, like trading their 1st round pick and Mo Pete for less expensive picks. Got out from Posey and Peja, and they're still competitive.

Competitive teams can afford to do this b/c they'll still be a good team and can just swap parts around their core. The Pacers were able to do this for awhile back when they were consistently good as well.

Bad teams have to play it safe, or overpay for the most part