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View Full Version : How Did We Get So Many Non-Athletic Guys?



presto123
01-15-2011, 12:55 AM
It just dawned on me. How many guys do we really have that can break down a defense and create their own shot? This is a must in the NBA and the elite teams are loaded with guys like this. Other than Collison we don't have hardly anybody. Think about it. Everybody on our team lacks athleticism to a certain degree. Even Danny Granger struggles a lot to get his own shot and to call him quick would be a stretch. Brandon Rush is a great shooter but can he get his own shot? Not really. He has to rely on screens and such. We have to be the slowest most non-athletic team in the league now that I think about it. Until some of this changes I think we will always struggle to keep pace with the elites.

Pacerfan
01-15-2011, 12:57 AM
Two words: Paul George

croz24
01-15-2011, 12:57 AM
what would you consider an athletic team? imo athleticsm doesn't really have much to do with the ability to create an open shot for yourself or others.

Dr. Awesome
01-15-2011, 12:59 AM
what would you consider an athletic team? imo athleticsm doesn't really have much to do with the ability to create an open shot for yourself or others.

It does in a sense. I mean, I see what your saying, but by the same token, an unathletic guy isn't getting away from an athletic defender.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 12:59 AM
It does in a sense. I mean, I see what your saying, but by the same token, an unathletic guy isn't getting away from an athletic defender.

Larry Bird

xBulletproof
01-15-2011, 01:00 AM
Larry Bird

Chris Mullen too.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:01 AM
what would you consider an athletic team? imo athleticsm doesn't really have much to do with the ability to create an open shot for yourself or others.

Clippers have many athletic players, EJ he creates his own shot with his good handles and athleticsm.

Dr. Awesome
01-15-2011, 01:03 AM
Larry Bird

Yea, because every non-athletic guy is on Larry Bird's level.

I've never understood why people try to make a point using the exception and not the rule...doesn't make sense.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:04 AM
Two words: Paul George

him and Lance and DC and Rush, but Rush isnt a very good finisher they are the only ones


JOB thinks DG can but he can't constantly. He is very misused by the coach

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:05 AM
Yea, because every non-athletic guy is on Larry Bird's level.

I've never understood why people try to make a point using the exception and not the rule...doesn't make sense.

Bird was insane his passing and skills off the chart. I was just giving an example. But there arent too many players like Bird who arent athletic and can create off the dribble.

Sookie
01-15-2011, 01:06 AM
him and Lance and DC and Rush, but Rush isnt a very good finisher they are the only ones


JOB thinks DG can but he can't constantly. He is very misused by the coach

Price and Ford can too. But TJ will miss his wide open layup.

I'd like to see Lance do it in an NBA game though.

And I agree, Granger really can't..he needs some screens to get himself open instead of taking bad shots..

presto123
01-15-2011, 01:07 AM
what would you consider an athletic team? imo athleticsm doesn't really have much to do with the ability to create an open shot for yourself or others.


What? Not sure what you mean. Maybe I should have said quick. We don't have many quick players that can get open by themselves.(fake the defender out of his shoes or blow by somebody)

rock747
01-15-2011, 01:08 AM
It's kind of wierd really... I have been asking this same question for years.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:12 AM
Price and Ford can too. But TJ will miss his wide open layup.

I'd like to see Lance do it in an NBA game though.

me 2 might have to wait till JOB is gone he probly isn't gonna play Lance

And I agree, Granger really can't..

Ford doesnt count because what he creates sucks he makes bad reads as the pg and cant hit a shot to save his life.

A.J creates more for others than himself which isn't a bad thing. He just isn't atletic enoght if he is playing a rondo type player to create his own shot in my option.

croz24
01-15-2011, 01:14 AM
What? Not sure what you mean. Maybe I should have said quick. We don't have many quick players that can get open by themselves.(fake the defender out of his shoes or blow by somebody)

other than tony parker, what great athletes do the spurs have? the past two years the lakers have won titles on the back of kobe's basketball iq and ability to get open looks at the use of pump fakes and great footwork. the celtics with exception to rondo, aren't exactly littered with great "athletes". and pacers4ever mentioned the clippers. guess where the clippers are in the standings with all of those great athletes. the reason we aren't winning has nothing to do with not having "athletes". your pic is of tom coverdale. how often did he fail to get his own shot or open shots for others? not often and i wouldn't exactly classify cov as a great athlete.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:15 AM
And I agree, Granger really can't..he needs some screens to get himself open instead of taking bad shots..

Ive been saying this for years but still we misuse him. Would Reggie have been so effective if he had to play in ISO or PnR a lot or had the ball in his hands a lot?? I dont think so we did the correct thing with Reggie and ran him off a lot of screens.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:19 AM
other than tony parker, what great athletes do the spurs have? the past two years the lakers have won titles on the back of kobe's basketball iq and ability to get open looks at the use of pump fakes and great footwork. the celtics with exception to rondo, aren't exactly littered with great "athletes". and pacers4ever mentioned the clippers. guess where the clippers are in the standings with all of those great athletes. the reason we aren't winning has nothing to do with not having "athletes". your pic is of tom coverdale. how often did he fail to get his own shot or open shots for others? not often and i wouldn't exactly classify cov as a great athlete.

I get ur point but most teams have a few good shot creators which we lack.

Lakers have Kobe

Thunder have Westbrook Durant

Celtics have Pierce who can create for himself

if you look at most every team they have at least one or 2 shot creators. We dont have one reliable one right now.

presto123
01-15-2011, 01:22 AM
other than tony parker, what great athletes do the spurs have? the past two years the lakers have won titles on the back of kobe's basketball iq and ability to get open looks at the use of pump fakes and great footwork. the celtics with exception to rondo, aren't exactly littered with great "athletes". and pacers4ever mentioned the clippers. guess where the clippers are in the standings with all of those great athletes. the reason we aren't winning has nothing to do with not having "athletes". your pic is of tom coverdale. how often did he fail to get his own shot or open shots for others? not often and i wouldn't exactly classify cov as a great athlete.


Ginobli can get to the hoop at will? What does my avatar have to do with this thread. I would be the first to admit that Cov is slow and that is the main reason he didn't make it to the NBA.Terrific passer and shooter though. And I wasn't saying that that is the only factor that determines success. It just helps out tremendously and makes things a little easier. Basketball IQ and instinct are just as important.

croz24
01-15-2011, 01:23 AM
having shot creators is entirely different than having great athletes. yes, we lack creators. but that in no way means we lack the athletes to compete. and that's why i disagree with the op. it isn't athleticsm that has been our downfall.

presto123
01-15-2011, 01:28 AM
having shot creators is entirely different than having great athletes. yes, we lack creators. but that in no way means we lack the athletes to compete. and that's why i disagree with the op. it isn't athleticsm that has been our downfall.


Athleticism and quickness tye right in to creating your own shot. Pump fakes and such are only so effective. Your logic still escapes me here?

croz24
01-15-2011, 01:28 AM
Ginobli can get to the hoop at will? What does my avatar have to do with this thread. I would be the first to admit that Cov is slow and that is the main reason he didn't make it to the NBA.Terrific passer and shooter though. And I wasn't saying that that is the only factor that determines success. It just helps out tremendously and makes things a little easier. Basketball IQ and instinct are just as important.

i don't think you are understanding. your argument is that we lack athletes or have the slowest team in the league. as i just stated, athleticism and shot creation are entirely different. your argument should be we have nobody who can really create for themselves consistently, not that we don't have any athletes... and your avatar is proof that it takes more than athleticism to get open looks. cov was as slow as they get, and yet he's the best shot creator iu has had over the last 10 years.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:28 AM
having shot creators is entirely different than having great athletes. yes, we lack creators. but that in no way means we lack the athletes to compete. and that's why i disagree with the op. it isn't athleticsm that has been our downfall.

To me are downfall is lack of defense and lack of a low post player and no shot creators. But thats just my option ya athelticsm doesnt have anything to do with being a good basketball player or good basketball team. It helps if you have athletes but i would take a good basketball player over a athlete who lacks basketball skills any day(ala Kevin Love).

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:30 AM
Athleticism and quickness tye right in to creating your own shot. Pump fakes and such are only so effective. Your logic still escapes me here?

I disagree Paul Pierce is old and semi-unathletic now but is still so good at creating his own shot and shots for others. He uses crafty ball fakes and is a good dribbler.

croz24
01-15-2011, 01:32 AM
Athleticism and quickness tye right in to creating your own shot. Pump fakes and such are only so effective. Your logic still escapes me here?

so you are telling me ginobili is quicker than anybody on the pacers roster? you are saying we lack the athletes. read your op. we have the same amount of athletic players as any elite team in the league, if not more. paul pierce is more athletic than granger or collison or george? even jordan in his later years was half the athlete he was in his younger days but was still able to create for himself off of fakes, post moves, footwork, basketball iq, etc. reggie miller wasn't exactly the greatest athlete yet he utilized his positioning and iq to always get the open shot. the logic is you are saying the pacers lack the athletes elite teams have which is false.

presto123
01-15-2011, 01:34 AM
i don't think you are understanding. your argument is that we lack athletes or have the slowest team in the league. as i just stated, athleticism and shot creation are entirely different. your argument should be we have nobody who can really create for themselves consistently, not that we don't have any athletes... and your avatar is proof that it takes more than athleticism to get open looks. cov was as slow as they get, and yet he's the best shot creator iu has had over the last 10 years.


I see your point. Yes we have very few that can create for themselves. But we also are very lacking in the quickness department. Quickness helps in getting open looks but once again it's not the only factor obviously.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:39 AM
I see your point. Yes we have very few that can create for themselves. But we also are very lacking in the quickness department. Quickness helps in getting open looks but once again it's not the only factor obviously.

I would rather have skilled guys(AJ) than athletic ones(Josh). But if they have the complete package skills and athletesim(BGriffen,Westbrook) than that is a bonus

Sookie
01-15-2011, 01:41 AM
Ford doesnt count because what he creates sucks he makes bad reads as the pg and cant hit a shot to save his life.

A.J creates more for others than himself which isn't a bad thing. He just isn't atletic enoght if he is playing a rondo type player to create his own shot in my option.

He's skilled, and he's quicker than people think he is, and pretty smart so he can get to the basket pretty easily (Might get blocked because the jumping ability isn't that great..) In fact he was third on the team in +1s last season. (In only 56 games..many of which were garbage games..) He can also get off his midrange shot and create space for himself. He's a good shooter so people have to guard him closer than they might others, which allows him to have the ability to get to the rim. Remember, last season he repeatedly beat Westbrook off the dribble in his best game, so he certainly has that ability. Is he going to dunk..no. But when people say "create your own shot" I think of a player that has the ability to get off a good shot. Price has got that ability. He's shown it.

If we're talking about "Does he have the ability to get to the rim based purely on athletics" No..but the quickness combined with his skills and intelligence gets him to the rim.

As someone else said, athleticism isn't all that's needed or the only thing thing that's needed. As someone pointed out before..Nash and Manu certainly aren't the most athletic players, but they can create their own shot easily.

In fact Lance isn't going to be able to get to the rim because he's athletic. He's slow. He's going to bulldoze his way into the basket.

As for Ford. All that was said was "creating his own shot" Ford can do that. He doesn't make it often, and as I said, he'll miss the wide open layups he gets..but he certainly can get his own shot up. :laugh:

presto123
01-15-2011, 01:42 AM
I would rather have skilled guys(AJ) than athletic ones(Josh). But if hey have the complete package skills and athletesim(BGriffen,Westbrook) than that is a bonus


Amen. How scary will Durant be if he gains some strength? He's getting better and better and he's even modest. What a concept. I would kill to get him on the pacers:happydanc

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:49 AM
He's skilled, and he's quicker than people think he is, and pretty smart so he can get to the basket pretty easily (Might get blocked because the jumping ability isn't that great..) In fact he was third on the team in +1s last season. (In only 56 games..many of which were garbage games..) He can also get off his midrange shot and create space for himself. He's a good shooter so people have to guard him closer than they might others, which allows him to have the ability to get to the rim. Remember, last season he repeatedly beat Westbrook off the dribble in his best game, so he certainly has that ability. Is he going to dunk..no. But when people say "create your own shot" I think of a player that has the ability to get off a good shot. Price has got that ability. He's shown it.

If we're talking about "Does he have the ability to get to the rim based purely on athletics" No..but the quickness combined with his skills and intelligence gets him to the rim.

As someone else said, athleticism isn't all that's needed or the only thing thing that's needed. As someone pointed out before..Nash and Manu certainly aren't the most athletic players, but they can create their own shot easily. In fact Lance isn't going to be able to get to the rim because he's athletic. He's slow. He's going to bulldoze his way into the basket.

As for Ford. All that was said was "creating his own shot" Ford can do that. He doesn't make it often, and as I said, he'll miss the wide open layups he gets..but he certainly can get his own shot up. :laugh:

Im not gonna lie and say i did. i was so pissed at how we were doing i quit watching games.


i agree with the 2nd bold statement 1000%. If you have basketball skills and savy that trumps athleticism any day u dont need too much athleticsm but u do need a tiny bit and know how to use it to benifit you.

pacer4ever
01-15-2011, 01:51 AM
Amen. How scary will Durant be if he gains some strength? He's getting better and better and he's even modest. What a concept. I would kill to get him on the pacers:happydanc

If Durant devlopes a post game and adds muscle he will be unstopable.

graphic-er
01-15-2011, 02:40 AM
Athleticism and quickness tye right in to creating your own shot. Pump fakes and such are only so effective. Your logic still escapes me here?

Hedo Turkoglu would disagree. That guy is one of the most nonathletic players in the league, and he has made a name for himself as being able to create off the dribble.

presto123
01-15-2011, 03:19 AM
Hedo Turkoglu would disagree. That guy is one of the most nonathletic players in the league, and he has made a name for himself as being able to create off the dribble.

There are always going to be those "crafty" players that are the acception to the rule. You guys are picking them out of the woodwork:laugh:

D-BONE
01-15-2011, 08:18 AM
To me are downfall is lack of defense and lack of a low post player and no shot creators. But thats just my option ya athelticsm doesnt have anything to do with being a good basketball player or good basketball team. It helps if you have athletes but i would take a good basketball player over a athlete who lacks basketball skills any day(ala Kevin Love).

I see what everyone's points are here. I don't think we're athletic enough, but ultimately, you can be a great player and/or shot creator without necessarily having great athletic ability. We just don't have a lot of great shot creators period.

Your point on the interior athleticism is spot on IMO. I look at guys on the Bulls like Noah, Boozer and especially Gibson. They get up in the air so quickly pursuing the ball. Gibson is like lightning going after a block or rebound.

I think Foster is our best guy at this right now. He's decent, but he's getting up there and doesn't elevate as much as jumps quickly plus is excellent at positioning. Difficulty is he is iffy at best finishing in traffic.

We flat out need an injection of both skill and athleticism inside.

xIndyFan
01-15-2011, 08:59 AM
. . . We flat out need an injection of both skill and athleticism inside.

pacers do need a couple of guys that can get their own shot. right now the guy that does that the best is TJ, followed by darren. both of those guys are so undersized, it makes it difficult to finish at the rim. that lack of size is something that cannot be overcome. long term, the pacers will need new PGs if they are going to make it past the first round of the playoffs.

pacers do need guys to work on improving their ball handling skills. danny and brandon are nice shooters, but terrible ball handlers for their position. paul george looks to have the combination of talent and potential skill set to be a really good player the pacers lack, but he still needs to work on his skills. the most skilled wing is mike. but his lack of athleticism puts a cap on how much he can do. except for mike, the pacer wings need to put some work on their ball skills. it looks like they have some, but still have a long way to go.

pacer bigs: roy, jeff and tyler are not particularly athletic. josh is more so, but not athletic by NBA standards, imho. jeff should be the role model for pacer bigs. is there anyone who does more with less than him. josh could be a real good player if he started doing the kind of things jeff does. tyler [and to a lesser extent josh] lack whatever skill is needed to defend in the post. boozer is a crafty player, but he is neither strong nor athletic by NBA bigs standards. he can be defended. but evidently only by jeff. both josh and tyler need to watch some tape of the guys they are defending and start anticipating what the other guy is going to do. roy has come a long way, but still needs to get bigger and stonger [especially lower body]. roy's problems in the post are exacerbated but the poor passing into the post by pacer wings and PGs. mike is the only quality passer. but in their defense, roy does not give a very good target.

i guess my point is: 1) the pacers do need to get more athletic, 2) the pacers need a couple of guys that can take someone off the dribble and [most importantly], pacers players need to do some serious work on their own skill sets. summer work. or they will remain ordinary players or players looking for work in china.

DieHard
01-15-2011, 01:31 PM
i think the reason why this team lacks the world class athletes like a d rose or blake griffin is because those type of players are drafted in the top five picks generally. the pacers have done a pretty good job building this team considering we haven't drafted in the top ten until this year. being a small market team the only way we get this type of talent is in the draft. people use okc as the model for us to follow, but they got kd 2nd, westbrook 4th. i feel like if larry had back to back top 5 picks we would have a much more athletic team.

SMosley21
01-15-2011, 01:37 PM
Is this a serious thread? Someone who has Tom Coverdale as their avatar complaining about a lack of athleticism, quickness or ability to creat their own shot? That is hilarious in and of itself.

Eleazar
01-16-2011, 01:40 AM
Collison, Price, Ford, George, Rush, Granger, and Josh are all athletic. They may not be Durant athletic, but none of them lack athleticism. They might lack other abilities that prevent them from being good shot creators, but that is a different issue all together.

Doug
01-16-2011, 09:49 AM
Beware falling in love with athleticism, for there lies madness.

spreedom
01-16-2011, 12:17 PM
I think that the ability to create your own shot has more to do with craftiness than athleticism -- reading your opponent and being advantageous when you know he is vulnerable. It's not always going to be that the guy that can jump higher will always be able to create a clean look. You have to have very precise timing.

presto123
01-17-2011, 12:14 AM
I think that the ability to create your own shot has more to do with craftiness than athleticism -- reading your opponent and being advantageous when you know he is vulnerable. It's not always going to be that the guy that can jump higher will always be able to create a clean look. You have to have very precise timing.


OK. We have a lot of guys who need to work on their timing:laugh:

Trophy
01-17-2011, 12:23 AM
Tyler is very athletic for his size.

I remember prior to the 2009 draft, Bird was looking for an athletic big and got exactly what he was looking for.

Paul already looks to be an athletic guy who will go right in for a dunk. Much like Rudy Gay.