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BornReady#6
01-12-2011, 01:26 PM
What are some of the best young cores in the NBA today? Which teams do you think in 3-4 years will be contenders if they stick with their youth?(I did 25 and under.)

Edited for consensus:

#1ThunderWe all know that drafting has really done these guys good, and being the youngest team in the league, they are a model for all small market teams.
Westbrook, Maynor
Harden, Cook
Durant
Green,
Ibaka, Aldrich

#2ClippersEveryone seems to be jumping on the Clippers band wagon, and there is plenty of room. The question always remains though, what will Mr. Sterling do? We have seen the Clippers in this position plenty, plenty, plenty of times, where they amass a great core of young guys, and then for some reason they are all gone by free agency, injuries or crazy trades.
Bledsoe, Willie Warren
Gordon,
Al-Farouq Aminu,
Griffen
Jordan,


#3?Pacers:As a team we are doing well getting guys in every position, if we can develop these guys, we should be contenders for years in the East
DC, AJ
Brush, Lance
George
Tyler, McBob
Roy

Wizards:With a few more lottery picks, and some playing time the wiz are making moves to build a contender also.
Wall
Young
Yi
Blatche, Seraphin
McGee


Raptors: This team seems to lose every all star they get, but through it all they have picked up some good young players, now they just need time and some more picks.
Bayless
DeRozan, Weems
Klieza, Wright
Ed Davis, Amir Johnson
Bargnani


Rockets This team really has a ton of talent, but like every year, they fail to win against the way better teams in the west, and they always have injury problems. On a good note, they have picked up some really good young talent to play behind their older guys.
Brooks, Lowry, Ish Smith
Lee, Twill,
Budinger,
Patterson, Hill


GrizzliesThis team has done great on the drafting side, but only Rudy Gay has really panned out to his full potential, with Conley and Gasol showing some good game also, but none-the-less it hasn't transfered into many wins.
Conley, Vasquez
Mayo, Henry,
Gay, Young, Carol
Arthur,
Gasol, Thabeet, Hadadi



TWolves:So much talent, so little direction. This is one of those teams we will look back at, after these players have gone on to other teams and succeeded, and think what a waste.
Rubio, Flynn, Telfair
Wes Johnson, Webster, Ellington
Beasley, Brewer, Hayward,
Love, Tolliver
Darko, Pekovic, Kosta


Warriors:Just like always the Warriors are a talented team that seems to always just waste it.
Curry, Lin, Law
Ellis, Williams,
Dorrell Wright, Udoh
Brandan Wright,
Biedrins


Kings: They remind me of the wizards of the west, they are silently rebuilding, and will be a great team in due time.
Evans
Taylor
Casspi, Greene
Thompson, Jackson
Cousins, Whiteside

pacer4ever
01-12-2011, 01:29 PM
Thunder followed by the Clippers

Trophy
01-12-2011, 01:38 PM
What's the frown for?

MyFavMartin
01-12-2011, 01:42 PM
I think we saw one last night: Holiday, Evans, and Speights. Meeks is potentially a very good 6th man/Ben Gordon-type (offensive spark).

Unclebuck
01-12-2011, 01:50 PM
Whenver I look at this type of thing I only look at quality. Don't really care too much about players 4-6 on the lists above. Only care about 1-3

The combo of Westbrook and Durrant are by far the best on that list, in fact they deserve to be compared with some of the best combos in the NBA - such as Lebron and Wade - that is how good they already are.

I would put the Clippers second.

DrFife
01-12-2011, 02:10 PM
Whenver I look at this type of thing I only look at quality. Don't really care too much about players 4-6 on the lists above. Only care about 1-3

The combo of Westbrook and Durrant are by far the best on that list, in fact they deserve to be compared with some of the best combos in the NBA - such as Lebron and Wade - that is how good they already are.

I would put the Clippers second.

Interesting comment. I agree with the Thunder-then-Clippers vote, but my statistical analysis from a couple years ago suggested that adding the 4th player (but not the 5th) to consideration in predicting regular season records was (marginally) worthwhile.

graphic-er
01-12-2011, 02:39 PM
I'd also add Evans, Cousins, Casspi in Sacto as a good young core.

pacer4ever
01-12-2011, 02:42 PM
I'd also add Evans, Cousins, Casspi in Sacto as a good young core.

GS also

sportfireman
01-12-2011, 02:48 PM
Thunder followed by Clippers. Pacers aren't too far behind.... we just need the right motivator.

pacer4ever
01-12-2011, 02:50 PM
Twolves should be on here



Beasly,Love,Flynn,Wes, Rubio

Justin Tyme
01-12-2011, 02:54 PM
What are some of the best young cores in the NBA today? Which teams do you think in 3-4 years will be contenders if they stick with their youth?(I did 25 and under.)

Pacers:(of course)As a team we are doing well getting guys in every position, if we can develop these guys, we should be contenders for years in the East
DC, AJ
Brush, Lance
George
Tyler, McBob
Roy

Wizards:With a few more lottery picks, and some playing time the wiz are making moves to build a contender also.
Wall
Young
Yi
Blatche, Seraphin
McGee


Raptors: This team seems to lose every all star they get, but through it all they have picked up some good young players, now they just need time and some more picks.
Bayless
DeRozan, Weems
Klieza, Wright
Ed Davis, Amir Johnson
Bargnani


Rockets This team really has a ton of talent, but like every year, they fail to win against the way better teams in the west, and they always have injury problems. On a good note, they have picked up some really good young talent to play behind their older guys.
Brooks, Lowry, Ish Smith
Lee, Twill,
Budinger,
Patterson, Hill


GrizzliesThis team has done great on the drafting side, but only Rudy Gay has really panned out to his full potential, with Conley and Gasol showing some good game also, but none-the-less it hasn't transfered into many wins.
Conley, Vasquez
Mayo, Henry,
Gay, Young, Carol
Arthur,
Thabeet, Hadadi


ThunderWe all know that drafting has really done these guys good, and being the youngest team in the league, they are a model for all small market teams.
Westbrook, Maynor
Harden, Cook
Durant
Green,
Ibaka, Aldrich

ClippersEveryone seems to be jumping on the Clippers band wagon, and there is plenty of room. The question always remains though, what will Mr. Sterling do? We have seen the Clippers in this position plenty, plenty, plenty of times, where they amass a great core of young guys, and then for some reason they are all gone by free agency, injuries or crazy trades.
Bledsoe, Willie Warren
Gordon,
Al-Farouq Aminu,
Griffen
Jordan,


Why did you leave out Marc Gasol? I like Memphis with Gay, Gasol, Mayo, and Conley. They have a very young and inexperienced bench. The owner should have kept his nose out of drafting Thabeet at #2 when there was much better talent available to choose. Practically, every player drafted after Thabeet is a better player than Thabeet. A case could be made that a dozen 2nd round picks are better. What a waste of a #2 pick in a good draft!!

Pacergeek
01-12-2011, 03:51 PM
I like the Grizzlies. Conley has really improved this season, and Gay is becoming a star.

cdash
01-12-2011, 04:06 PM
I like the Grizzlies. Conley has really improved this season, and Gay is becoming a star.

Yeah, I do too. Gay is already a star.

I know PG is a little smaller than Rudy, but I think that is a good comparison for where George could eventually be someday. We can only hope.

DrFife
01-12-2011, 06:30 PM
Yeah, I do too. Gay is already a star.

I know PG is a little smaller than Rudy, but I think that is a good comparison for where George could eventually be someday. We can only hope.

Gay has the wingspan of a condor and can jump out of the gym, but PGeorge has hops too and is about the same size otherwise:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rudy-Gay-34/
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Paul-George-5688/

seattlerainer
01-12-2011, 06:31 PM
hahah so PG is wayy better than Gay 4 sho

aaronb
01-12-2011, 06:46 PM
1. Okc
2. Clipps
3. Minnesota
4. Memphis
5. Sacto

BringJackBack
01-12-2011, 07:00 PM
I'll go:

1. OKC
2. Clippers (The front office and ownership will ever make anything of it though.)
3. Grizzlies
4. Pacers
5. Timberwolves (I guess)

aaronb
01-12-2011, 07:56 PM
6. GS
7. Washington
8. Portland
9. Chicago
10.Detroit
11.Pacers

hoops_guy
01-12-2011, 08:02 PM
6. GS
7. Washington
8. Portland
9. Chicago
10.Detroit
11.Pacers

...And that is why I don't take you seriously. You had to add five other teams when others were generally making a top five (including yourself) to try to take a little jab at Bird. Not only is that a jab at Bird, but you are trying to make buzz for the hell of it. I understand if you really and truly feel that way, but the only reason you did that is to try to undermine our talent and players, not to make a true assesment.

shags
01-12-2011, 08:14 PM
Miami, Chicago, and Oklahoma City would be 1, 2, and 3 for me.

aaronb
01-12-2011, 08:19 PM
...And that is why I don't take you seriously. You had to add five other teams when others were generally making a top five (including yourself) to try to take a little jab at Bird. Not only is that a jab at Bird, but you are trying to make buzz for the hell of it. I understand if you really and truly feel that way, but the only reason you did that is to try to undermine our talent and players, not to make a true assesment.


It's not a jab at anyone. It's an honest assessment of what our "young core" really is. I'd venture to say that most non Pacers fans would share that same opinion. Same with most professional NBA pundits and "experts".

Unfortunately reality sucks sometimes

purdue101
01-12-2011, 08:42 PM
It's not a jab at anyone. It's an honest assessment of what our "young core" really is. I'd venture to say that most non Pacers fans would share that same opinion. Same with most professional NBA pundits and "experts".

Unfortunately reality sucks sometimes

Out of curiosity, what is your beef with Bird in the first place? Since Donnie left, I think he's done a very good job. Hibbert, George, AJ, & Rush were all good picks. Hans is starting to coming around. Lance could be a steal for a 2nd rounder. The JO trade, DC trade, and Rush trade all worked out in our favor against the other teams. The Granger extension was solid when you look at some of the other deals tossed around (Iggy, JJ, etc).

Considering he inherited mariginal players with huge deals, he's done a very good job IMO.

We can't hold him accountable for any moves while Donnie was here b/c we simply do not know who pulled the trigger on what. Plus, Donnie would have to sign off on everything as he sat atop the chain of command.

hoops_guy
01-12-2011, 08:47 PM
There is a difference between reality and "reality".

"Reality" being stretching the truth to support an opinion.

aaronb
01-12-2011, 09:04 PM
Out of curiosity, what is your beef with Bird in the first place? Since Donnie left, I think he's done a very good job. Hibbert, George, AJ, & Rush were all good picks. Hans is starting to coming around. Lance could be a steal for a 2nd rounder. The JO trade, DC trade, and Rush trade all worked out in our favor against the other teams. The Granger extension was solid when you look at some of the other deals tossed around (Iggy, JJ, etc).

Considering he inherited mariginal players with huge deals, he's done a very good job IMO.

We can't hold him accountable for any moves while Donnie was here b/c we simply do not know who pulled the trigger on what. Plus, Donnie would have to sign off on everything as he sat atop the chain of command.




My beef is that we've been a rudderless ship for 6 years running now. Bird has stood pat and done nothing to really change the fortunes of the franchise. Sure he has drafted OK for being in the mid teen each and every year. Problem is that we've had NO BUSINESS being in the mid teens for 7 years.

The way the NBA is set up right now. The worst place to be is 10-14. Yet it's exactly what we've planned on being for 5-6 consecutive years.

At some point a reasonable man would have realized the core wasn't good enough. We should have stockpiled young assets and picks. This thing is still years of building away from being a contender. And far too many people are in complete denial about that fact.

Nobody should get Credit for Standing Pat and being awful. Yet somehow Bird is the Teflon man of the NBA?

aaronb
01-12-2011, 09:15 PM
There is a difference between reality and "reality".

"Reality" being stretching the truth to support an opinion.


On a cell phone without spellcheck. I apologize profusely got the typo

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 09:17 PM
George is 3/4 of an in taller, since they other guy said Gay was bigger.
Gay has the wingspan of a condor and can jump out of the gym, but PGeorge has hops too and is about the same size otherwise:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rudy-Gay-34/
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Paul-George-5688/

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 09:19 PM
:picard:
My beef is that we've been a rudderless ship for 6 years running now. Bird has stood pat and done nothing to really change the fortunes of the franchise. Sure he has drafted OK for being in the mid teen each and every year. Problem is that we've had NO BUSINESS being in the mid teens for 7 years.

The way the NBA is set up right now. The worst place to be is 10-14. Yet it's exactly what we've planned on being for 5-6 consecutive years.

At some point a reasonable man would have realized the core wasn't good enough. We should have stockpiled young assets and picks. This thing is still years of building away from being a contender. And far too many people are in complete denial about that fact.

Nobody should get Credit for Standing Pat and being awful. Yet somehow Bird is the Teflon man of the NBA?

purdue101
01-12-2011, 09:26 PM
My beef is that we've been a rudderless ship for 6 years running now. Bird has stood pat and done nothing to really change the fortunes of the franchise. Sure he has drafted OK for being in the mid teen each and every year. Problem is that we've had NO BUSINESS being in the mid teens for 7 years.

The way the NBA is set up right now. The worst place to be is 10-14. Yet it's exactly what we've planned on being for 5-6 consecutive years.

At some point a reasonable man would have realized the core wasn't good enough. We should have stockpiled young assets and picks. This thing is still years of building away from being a contender. And far too many people are in complete denial about that fact.

Nobody should get Credit for Standing Pat and being awful. Yet somehow Bird is the Teflon man of the NBA?

Bird has been in charge for 3 years, so again, that's all we can really judge him by. How is he supposed to improve the roster when we had marginal players like Mike Dunleavy, Troy Murphy, JO, and Tinsley eating up every penny of our cap? Bird didn't sign/trade for those guys, Donnie did. We've had no cap room to sign anyone, it's impossible. Nobody wants to trade for those guys making that money either, we've been completely backed into a corner. The fact that he got an expiring contract (Rasho) and Hibbert for JO was a miracle, as was turning Troy into DC. You act as though Bird inherited $30M in cap space which he sat on, which couldn't be further from the truth. He's done well with what he's had. I would say we've drafted well above average in recent years and all three major trades (JO, Bayless, & Troy) worked out well for us.

You also say our future is bleak, how so? We have a lot of young talent (top 11 in your own words), but the only difference is that we now have more money to spend than any of those teams you ranked ahead of us. Portland, Detroit, Washington, LAC, etc., are now saddled with no money b/c of Brandon Roy, Villanueva, Gordon, Rashard Lewis, Kaman, Davis, etc. We are one of the few teams in this league with young talent and a ton of money to add the missing pieces.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we cannot judge Bird in full until we see what he does with cap space and flexibility. All we can look at is the draft and trades, which he's nailed. If we are in a terrible position in 9 months after FA, then feel free to bash away.

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 09:41 PM
We did get Hibbert out of JO as well, well the 17th pick that got Hibbert.

Bird has been in charge for 3 years, so again, that's all we can really judge him by. How is he supposed to improve the roster when we had marginal players like Mike Dunleavy, Troy Murphy, JO, and Tinsley eating up every penny of our cap? Bird didn't sign/trade for those guys, Donnie did. We've had no cap room to sign anyone, it's impossible. Nobody wants to trade for those guys making that money either, we've been completely backed into a corner. The fact that he got an expiring contract (Rasho) and Hibbert for JO was a miracle, as was turning Troy into DC. You act as though Bird inherited $30M in cap space which he sat on, which couldn't be further from the truth. He's done well with what he's had. I would say we've drafted well above average in recent years and all three major trades (JO, Bayless, & Troy) worked out well for us.

You also say our future is bleak, how so? We have a lot of young talent (top 11 in your own words), but the only difference is that we now have more money to spend than any of those teams you ranked ahead of us. Portland, Detroit, Washington, LAC, etc., are now saddled with no money b/c of Brandon Roy, Villanueva, Gordon, Rashard Lewis, Kaman, Davis, etc. We are one of the few teams in this league with young talent and a ton of money to add the missing pieces.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we cannot judge Bird in full until we see what he does with cap space and flexibility. All we can look at is the draft and trades, which he's nailed. If we are in a terrible position in 9 months after FA, then feel free to bash away.

aaronb
01-12-2011, 09:43 PM
Bird has been in charge for 3 years, so again, that's all we can really judge him by. How is he supposed to improve the roster when we had marginal players like Mike Dunleavy, Troy Murphy, JO, and Tinsley eating up every penny of our cap? Bird didn't sign/trade for those guys, Donnie did. We've had no cap room to sign anyone, it's impossible. Nobody wants to trade for those guys making that money either, we've been completely backed into a corner. The fact that he got an expiring contract (Rasho) and Hibbert for JO was a miracle, as was turning Troy into DC. You act as though Bird inherited $30M in cap space which he sat on, which couldn't be further from the truth. He's done well with what he's had. I would say we've drafted well above average in recent years and all three major trades (JO, Bayless, & Troy) worked out well for us.

You also say our future is bleak, how so? We have a lot of young talent (top 11 in your own words), but the only difference is that we now have more money to spend than any of those teams you ranked ahead of us. Portland,
Detroit, Washington, LAC, etc., are now saddled with no money b/c of Brandon
Roy, Villanueva, Gordon, Rashard Lewis, Kaman, Davis, etc. We are one of

the few teams in this league with young talent and a ton of money to add the missing pieces.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we cannot judge Bird in full until we see
what he does with cap space and flexibility. All we can look at is the draft and trades, which he's nailed. If we are in a terrible position in 9 months after FA, then feel free to bash away.



That is a fair way to look at the situation. But my feeling is that Bird will still be off limits out here in 12 months because of some other excuse.

The CIB?
JOB
Hibby or Granger
An injury
Fan Support?

Whatever stupid excuse that can be thought up will surely be used to defend Larry Legend.

At what point is it fair to call him a failure? Just like 90% of all former players turned FO Exec.

Would we give Kevin McHale or Isiah Thomas 8 years as GM to prove he's a complete dud? If Larry was from California would the excuse brigade still be out in full force?

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 09:50 PM
He isn't a failure, you be trollin.

purdue101
01-12-2011, 09:54 PM
That is a fair way to look at the situation. But my feeling is that Bird will still be off limits out here in 12 months because of some other excuse.

The CIB?
JOB
Hibby or Granger
An injury
Fan Support?

Whatever stupid excuse that can be thought up will surely be used to defend Larry Legend.

At what point is it fair to call him a failure? Just like 90% of all former players turned FO Exec.

Would we give Kevin McHale or Isiah Thomas 8 years as GM to prove he's a complete dud? If Larry was from California would the excuse brigade still be out in full force?

For the third post in a row, Larry has been in charge for 3 years. Not 6 years. Not 8 years. 3 years. If you have beef for 8 years of Pacers play, chalk 5 up to Donnie.

If Larry duds out with our expirings by not trading them for a good asset, or by using the cap savings to sign a significant FA piece(s), then yes, we can call him a failure.

It blows my mind that you consider Larry a failure when he has not been one red cent under the salary cap to make a move. All he's been able to do is make trades, which he's nailed, and draft, which he's also nailed. Not sure where your anger towards him comes from. If it's from 6 years of Pacers failures, than blame Donnie, he started this mess with all the bad contracts and trades. Bird is slowly digging us out of it.

aaronb
01-12-2011, 09:56 PM
He isn't a failure, you be trollin.


I've been a huge Pacers fan all my life. It's not being a troll if you are being honest about the situation at hand.

If more people were realistic about things, then we'd most likely be in a much better position today.

Justin Tyme
01-12-2011, 10:00 PM
[QUOTE=purdue101;1134983]

All we can look at is the draft and trades, which he's nailed. QUOTE]


Yep, he sure nailed Shawne Williams and James White as draft picks. How's Lance Stephenson doing? Let's not turn a blind eye towards the blunders of giving Foster a 2 year 12.6 mil extension when he did. Or picking up O'Brien's TO for a 4th year when he did. I guess those things don't count either, and Bird shouldn't be judged by them. Those are Bird's doings, and he's accountable for them whether you want to agree or not.

aaronb
01-12-2011, 10:00 PM
For the third post in a row, Larry has been in charge for 3 years. Not 6 years. Not 8 years. 3 years. If you have beef for 8 years of Pacers play, chalk 5 up to Donnie.

If Larry duds out with our expirings by not trading them for a good asset, or by using the cap savings to sign a significant FA piece(s), then yes, we can call him a failure.

It blows my mind that you consider Larry a failure when he has not been one red cent under the salary cap to make a move. All he's been able to do is make trades, which he's nailed, and draft, which he's also nailed. Not sure where your anger towards him comes from. If it's from 6 years of Pacers failures, than blame Donnie, he started this mess with all the bad contracts and trades. Bird is slowly digging us out of it.


Bird was brought here in 2003. So surely he did SOMETHING during that time?

aaronb
01-12-2011, 10:05 PM
[QUOTE=purdue101;1134983]

All we can look at is the draft and trades, which he's nailed. QUOTE]


Yep, he sure nailed Shawne Williams and James White as draft picks. How's Lance Stephenson doing? Let's not turn a blind eye towards the blunders of giving Foster a 2 year 12.6 mil extension when he did. Or picking up O'Brien's TO for a 4th year when he did. I guess those things don't count either, and Bird shouldn't be judged by them. Those are Bird's doings, and he's accountable for them whether you want to agree or not.

Those don't count. He had the sun in his eyes, his hands were slippery, and he had acid reflux going on when those things happened.

purdue101
01-12-2011, 10:20 PM
[QUOTE=purdue101;1134983]

All we can look at is the draft and trades, which he's nailed. QUOTE]


Yep, he sure nailed Shawne Williams and James White as draft picks. How's Lance Stephenson doing? Let's not turn a blind eye towards the blunders of giving Foster a 2 year 12.6 mil extension when he did. Or picking up O'Brien's TO for a 4th year when he did. I guess those things don't count either, and Bird shouldn't be judged by them. Those are Bird's doings, and he's accountable for them whether you want to agree or not.

You can't tell me that Donnie nor Herb approved that pick also. They're in charge, not Larry. I highly doubt Donnie would allow Larry to select a player he was adamantly against - that's not how any business is run.

More importantly, that draft was hands down the weakest draft over the past 10 years, possibly ever. Bargnani, Tyrus Thomas, Adam Morrison, & Shelden Williams were top 5 picks. There are at least 8-10 players ahead of Shawne that are no better than he is now with NYK - 5 players ahead of him aren't even in the league. And behind Shawne, there is only one player worth mentioning (Rondo).

It was a weak draft, I can't blame anyone for taking a flyer on potential at 17. About 2/3 of the GM's in the league were goose egged on that draft.

Lance hasn't played a minute of NBA ball, how can we judge him? He's stuck behind one of the deepest wing rotations in the league. Let the kid get on the court. The only time he did (summer league), he was very good.

I will knock Larry though for the Foster/JOB extensions, more so JOB. Foster is actually earning his keep recently. However, neither were good moves.

My point is, Bird has done far more positives then negatives, and some people want to write him off when he has never once had a full deck of cards to play with, which he will over the next 6-9 months.

Day-V
01-12-2011, 10:24 PM
How's Lance Stephenson doing?
Dude was a 2nd round pick at a position where we were already full. He was always going to be a project, as most 2nd round picks are.


Let's not turn a blind eye towards the blunders of giving Foster a 2 year 12.6 mil extension when he did. Or picking up O'Brien's TO for a 4th year when he did. I guess those things don't count either, and Bird shouldn't be judged by them. Those are Bird's doings, and he's accountable for them whether you want to agree or not.

While those indeed were not good, you seem to be skipping over the tremendous moves Bird has made in the past 3 years.

Trading away the Ghost of Jermaine O'Neal for Roy Hibbert
Trading Jerryd Bayless away on draft day and bringing in Brandon Rush and Josh McRoberts
Drafting Tyler Hansbrough
Drafting Paul George
Trading away the Human Turnstile for Darren Collison



Bird has brought in a promising young core in just 3 seasons. The future is much brighter now than it was with Donnie trotting out a crippled J.O., Stephen Jackson, Bermuda Harrington, and Jamaal Tinsley.


The next test for Bird is what he does in the off-season in regards to the coaching situation and what he does with the cap room. To call the man a failure is basically letting everyone know you haven't been paying attention the past few years.

xBulletproof
01-12-2011, 11:29 PM
aaronb simply can't comprehend that Larry has a plan. He likes to laud over guys who have made moves and completed rebuilding process, while dogging Bird over a rebuild in progress. It's a worthless argument, trust me. Larry Bird did something personally to the guy. Bird could spin this offseason into getting Kevin Love, Lebron James and Dwight Howard, and he'd still be a schmuck worthy of firing, I'm sure.

It's amusing that Justin Tyme's complaints revolve around a pick that was made while Donnie Walsh was his boss, and two 2nd round picks. Stephenson is still in his rookie year, and he's barely 20, so that's silly to judge. Regardless, most 2nd round picks in the NBA don't amount to much anyway. If that's what you've got to complain about then there's really not much to complain about.

aaronb
01-12-2011, 11:44 PM
aaronb simply can't comprehend that Larry has a plan. He likes to laud over guys who have made moves and completed rebuilding process, while dogging Bird over a rebuild in progress. It's a worthless argument, trust me. Larry Bird did something personally to the guy. Bird could spin this offseason into getting Kevin Love, Lebron James and Dwight Howard, and he'd still be a schmuck worthy of firing, I'm sure.

It's amusing that Justin Tyme's complaints revolve around a pick that was made while Donnie Walsh was his boss, and two 2nd round picks. Stephenson is still in his rookie year, and he's barely 20, so that's silly to judge. Regardless, most 2nd round picks in the NBA don't amount to much anyway. If that's what you've got to complain about then there's really not much to complain about.

I've never understood your personal issue with myself or my opinions?
I just think at some point it's gotta be Birds fault. Everyone else has been fired, and yet were still stuck in nuetral. That ISNT job well done in my opinion. To each their own I suppose.

And for the record for the 7th time. I have nothing against Bird as a person. I'm sure he's a nice enough guy to grab a beer with. I just think he's overmatched as an exec in today's NBA.


LB was a garbage man at an age when lots of these new, top level Execs were in Ivy League schools. Simply put the game has changed. Look no further than the huge list of former starts that are/have/did fail miserably at being the franchise builder.

It's just a different skillset. It's a different game.

Infinite MAN_force
01-12-2011, 11:51 PM
10.Detroit
11.Pacers

Suggesting that Detroit has a better young core than we do invalidates everything you have to say.

xBulletproof
01-12-2011, 11:54 PM
Here's a simple question. Do you think we're in a better position with younger players and expiring contracts than we were when Larry Bird took over?

pacer4ever
01-12-2011, 11:57 PM
Suggesting that Detroit has a better young core than we do invalidates everything you have to say.

lets compare


DC/AJ
Rush/Paul/Lance
Tyler/J mac
Roy

DET

Stucky
White
Daye
Summers /Jerebko(injured)
Moneroe


I would take ours in a blowout fashion. But i really like Daye and Moneroe,Jerebko

Stuckey and the rest not so much.

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 11:59 PM
I've been a huge Pacers fan all my life. It's not being a troll if you are being honest about the situation at hand.

If more people were realistic about things, then we'd most likely be in a much better position today.

then why are you completely ignoring when people say he has been GM for only three years. Why aren't you engaging in a debate. I stand by my accusation that you be trollin. If your not troll-in then you just don't know what the hell your talking about.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 12:10 AM
then why are you completely ignoring when people say he has been GM for only three years. Why aren't you engaging in a debate. I stand by my accusation that you be trollin. If your not troll-in then you just don't know what the hell your talking about.

I'm not ignoring it. It's not the truth. Look at any basketball resource and you will see Bird has been here since 2003.

Some people pretend that every bad move was Walsh, and every decent move has been Bird.

I think it's beyond silly to cherry pick blame.

xBulletproof
01-13-2011, 12:25 AM
I'm not ignoring it. It's not the truth. Look at any basketball resource and you will see Bird has been here since 2003.

Some people pretend that every bad move was Walsh, and every decent move has been Bird.

I think it's beyond silly to cherry pick blame.

It's not cherry picking. Bad moves, before Walsh left. Good moves, since Walsh left. That's called common sense, not cherry picking. The difference in quality of moves has changed since Walsh left. You call it cherry picking because you want to make excuses for why Bird is a failure.

You still never answered my simple question either.

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 12:28 AM
It's not cherry picking. Bad moves, before Walsh left. Good moves, since Walsh left. That's called common sense, not cherry picking. The difference in quality of moves has changed since Walsh left. You call it cherry picking because you want to make excuses for why Bird is a failure.

You still never answered my simple question either.

Plus when Walsh was here he made the final decsion on every basketball move. Yes Bird had input but he didnt have the final say on any basketball decsions. I must say I like Morway a lot he is a good GM.

oxxo
01-13-2011, 02:25 AM
Just put aaronb on ignore. All he brings is 'Bird sucks' with no logic or reason. Our latest (typical) example being him saying Detroit has a better core than Indiana.

1) Thunder
2) Clippers
3) Bulls
4) Pacers
5) Grizzlies

Taterhead
01-13-2011, 03:52 AM
I love how everybody gets so touchy when Larry Bird gets criticized. They even go as far as to accuse people of being biased towards Larry, like there is any valid reason to have a grudge with him if you're an Indiana basketball fan. Yeah right. I am the biggest fan of Larry the basketball player, and even as a coach, you can possibly find. But I am not blind.

Here are the real facts that matter. Larry Bird has failed to deliver a playoff birth as GM, which was his #1 goal every year. He has failed to produce a draft pick or free agent that has made a significant impact on a team who is in desperate need of it. The fact that Josh McRoberts is on the bench in favor of a gimmick line-up has to mean one of two things. Either he isn't that good or the coach is an idiot. Roy getting benched at the end of games for a washed up Jeff Foster means something. And he hired Jim O'Brien and even extended him without any real improvement in the state of the team during his tenure.

I personally like our young players but I do wish Larry would have been more aggressive the last few years. I think he has missed some opportunities to improve the team.

xBulletproof
01-13-2011, 04:39 AM
Taterhead

I don't think anyone has a problem with legit complaints about Bird, like keeping O'Brien around. However if you've read aaronb's posts over the months, he obsesses over it. It's the only subject he ever posts about and it's always unrealistic complaints. In fact, you have what I'd consider a complaint that is unrealistic in your post, even though you have some legit one's as well. How was Bird supposed to make any sort of free agent signing that had an impact when he's had no money to spend? What's been his biggest signing dollar wise? 2 million per year? That's just horribly unrealistic to expect any impact signings with what was available.

The draft picks haven't been home runs, but they're all rotation players. Of course, that could change with Paul George. He could very well be the home run you're asking for, and I believe he will be.

You can believe Bird had opportunities to improve the team, but you can't prove so. Just as I can't prove otherwise. However we do know the assets he had, which were Danny Granger, and late lottery picks. What else did he have that other teams would have wanted? Not much, I presume.

Regardless, we're in a much better position today, than we were the day Donnie Walsh resigned. That much is obvious. That's Larry Bird's doing. Some complaints I understand (I have some) but the level of aaronb's complaints are quite honestly .... strange.

purdue101
01-13-2011, 07:02 AM
I love how everybody gets so touchy when Larry Bird gets criticized. They even go as far as to accuse people of being biased towards Larry, like there is any valid reason to have a grudge with him if you're an Indiana basketball fan. Yeah right. I am the biggest fan of Larry the basketball player, and even as a coach, you can possibly find. But I am not blind.

Here are the real facts that matter. Larry Bird has failed to deliver a playoff birth as GM, which was his #1 goal every year. He has failed to produce a draft pick or free agent that has made a significant impact on a team who is in desperate need of it. The fact that Josh McRoberts is on the bench in favor of a gimmick line-up has to mean one of two things. Either he isn't that good or the coach is an idiot. Roy getting benched at the end of games for a washed up Jeff Foster means something. And he hired Jim O'Brien and even extended him without any real improvement in the state of the team during his tenure.

I personally like our young players but I do wish Larry would have been more aggressive the last few years. I think he has missed some opportunities to improve the team.

Significant impact player? We've never had a top 10 pick to work with and when we have drafted, they've been impact players (Hibbert & Rush). Name three players we passed on who would be a significant player on this team?

Also, give me your take on what those "missed opportunities" were? Please be specific. Are you referring to all the teams chomping at the bit to get their hands on Dunleavy and his 3 year 30M deal? What about Tinsley and his ever appealing contract? Murphy's worth 12M a year, look at him tearing it up in NJ. As I see it, we capitalized with what we could - DC & Hibbert trades.

You have to keep in mind, for the hundreth time, Bird has had no money. The most important weapon in any GM's aresenal is cash, and he's had none. All he's had were draft picks & a few trade opportunities, he's cashed in on both.

Some people are so closed off to considering all the facts that influence an outcome.

purdue101
01-13-2011, 07:10 AM
Here's a simple question. Do you think we're in a better position with younger players and expiring contracts than we were when Larry Bird took over?

Took the words right out of my mouth. Our position, compared to the majority of teams in the league is excellent. You can't rectify a mess in one season and I'm glad Larry stayed patient and true to his plan. We could have swayed and ended up like Charlotte, who is doomed for the next 5 + years.

Taterhead
01-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Significant impact player? We've never had a top 10 pick to work with and when we have drafted, they've been impact players (Hibbert & Rush). Name three players we passed on who would be a significant player on this team?

Also, give me your take on what those "missed opportunities" were? Please be specific. Are you referring to all the teams chomping at the bit to get their hands on Dunleavy and his 3 year 30M deal? What about Tinsley and his ever appealing contract? Murphy's worth 12M a year, look at him tearing it up in NJ. As I see it, we capitalized with what we could - DC & Hibbert trades.

You have to keep in mind, for the hundreth time, Bird has had no money. The most important weapon in any GM's aresenal is cash, and he's had none. All he's had were draft picks & a few trade opportunities, he's cashed in on both.

Some people are so closed off to considering all the facts that influence an outcome.

Hibbert and Rush are impact players? What is their impact exactly?

Unclebuck
01-13-2011, 10:32 AM
Bird IMO cannot be judged until after this summer's free agency. We'll know next year if Bird is a success or not. Not to suggest that no one should comment in the meantime, but I think to draw definitive conclusions at this point is sort of like drawing conclusions midway through the 3rd quarter of a game.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 10:37 AM
Just put aaronb on ignore. All he brings is 'Bird sucks' with no logic or reason. Our latest (typical) example being him saying Detroit has a better core than Indiana.

1) Thunder
2) Clippers
3) Bulls
4) Pacers
5) Grizzlies


WITHOUT LOGIC OR REASON????????


I think I've CLEARLY spelled out plenty of logic and several reasons. It's your choice if you choose to agree or not?

Not sure why people get angry at someone for not being a Pollyanna about this situation? Are we not allowed to have an adult conversation about this?

aaronb
01-13-2011, 10:43 AM
Significant impact player? We've never had a top 10 pick to work with and when we have drafted, they've been impact players (Hibbert & Rush). Name three players we passed on who would be a significant player on this team?

Also, give me your take on what those "missed opportunities" were? Please be specific. Are you referring to all the teams chomping at the bit to get their hands on Dunleavy and his 3 year 30M deal? What about Tinsley and his ever appealing contract? Murphy's worth 12M a year, look at him tearing it up in NJ. As I see it, we capitalized with what we could - DC & Hibbert trades.

You have to keep in mind, for the hundreth time, Bird has had no money. The most important weapon in any GM's aresenal is cash, and he's had none. All he's had were draft picks & a few trade opportunities, he's cashed in on both.

Some people are so closed off to considering all the facts that influence an outcome.


GOOD LORD THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!!!!!!

If we would have rebuilt the correct way. The way that every other team has rebuilt over the last 20 years. We would have had MULTIPLE top 10 picks. We would probably be sitting here with a franchise player and a multitude of high upside prospects.

Instead Larry has pieced this roster together to shoot for an 8th seed in the playoffs each and every year. Now we have a bunch of bit players and ONLY 3 PLAYERS WHO SEE THE COURT ON A CONTENDER.

Its not all flowers and kittens, its the reality of the situation.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 10:49 AM
Taterhead

I don't think anyone has a problem with legit complaints about Bird, like keeping O'Brien around. However if you've read aaronb's posts over the months, he obsesses over it. It's the only subject he ever posts about and it's always unrealistic complaints. In fact, you have what I'd consider a complaint that is unrealistic in your post, even though you have some legit one's as well. How was Bird supposed to make any sort of free agent signing that had an impact when he's had no money to spend? What's been his biggest signing dollar wise? 2 million per year? That's just horribly unrealistic to expect any impact signings with what was available.

The draft picks haven't been home runs, but they're all rotation players. Of course, that could change with Paul George. He could very well be the home run you're asking for, and I believe he will be.

You can believe Bird had opportunities to improve the team, but you can't prove so. Just as I can't prove otherwise. However we do know the assets he had, which were Danny Granger, and late lottery picks. What else did he have that other teams would have wanted? Not much, I presume.

Regardless, we're in a much better position today, than we were the day Donnie Walsh resigned. That much is obvious. That's Larry Bird's doing. Some complaints I understand (I have some) but the level of aaronb's complaints are quite honestly .... strange.


Bullett, lets hash this out.

What exactly are my "Unrealistic complaints"?

My whole platform is that when Artest went off the reservation in 2005. It was time to clean house and do a complete ground up rebuild. Instead the Pacers decided to go the piecemeal route of cobbling together a team that could compete for an 8th seed, each and every year.


The "What could Larry do? He was drafting in the mid teens" argument doesn't hold water. We had no business keeping a roster in tact that kept us in the mid teens.

In the NBA, if you aren't a contender. You need to be in rebuild mode. Larry has instead chosen to be a "Floater"



Your turn.........

johndozark
01-13-2011, 11:24 AM
There is general consensus that for the past three years Bird has made pretty good draft picks (for the positions we had) and pretty good trades (for what we had to offer). I think that there is also consensus that he should not have extended O'Brien.

I believe that the other mistake is related to retaining O'Brien. When we were no longer in contention at the end of each season, we continued to play to win (according to O'Brien's idea of that) rather than to develop young talent. Too often the debate on this has centered on playing to win versus tanking. It is not tanking to take a risk on developing our young talent. If the risk turns out badly in wins and losses, then so be it; it would only mean better draft picks. But it is silly to be playing our veterans in the attempt to beat other teams that are not trying to win. It is meaningless and doubly costly: missing the potential to develop our young guys more and probably getting worse draft picks too.

Justin Tyme
01-13-2011, 11:57 AM
Dude was a 2nd round pick at a position where we were already full. He was always going to be a project, as most 2nd round picks are.




While those indeed were not good, you seem to be skipping over the tremendous moves Bird has made in the past 3 years.


How quickly we forget. After Stephenson was drafted, he was THE pick., a pick Bird wanted in the 1st round. His star was bright and greatness was just waiting to happen... until his PR nightmare incident. So don't play the "he was a 2nd round pick" card with me. Speaking of 2nd round picks, what happened to Rolle? Remember, the Pacers had the 3 best players in summer league. 3 can't miss Bird picks.

I'm not skipping over anything, but showing Bird isn't as great as some have made him out to be. Contrary to some's belief, Bird, the POB, isn't w/o warts. We'll see what he'll to with the cap space for the future ....... if indeed he is still around.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 11:58 AM
WITHOUT LOGIC OR REASON????????


I think I've CLEARLY spelled out plenty of logic and several reasons. It's your choice if you choose to agree or not?

Not sure why people get angry at someone for not being a Pollyanna about this situation? Are we not allowed to have an adult conversation about this?

The last time I saw you laying out your case against Bird, I recall you moving the goal posts repeatedly when people responded to it with good counterpoints.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 12:21 PM
The last time I saw you laying out your case against Bird, I recall you moving the goal posts repeatedly when people responded to it with good counterpoints.


I'm not attempting to move any goal posts. I just don't understand how a guy who has had such little success in his job is completely absolved from any kind of criticism.

The guy got here in 2003 with the title of GM. Yet for some reason every good move gets put on the Bird ledger, and every bad move is the fault of someone else?

Justin Tyme
01-13-2011, 12:29 PM
[QUOTE=Justin Tyme;1135014]

You can't tell me that Donnie nor Herb approved that pick also. They're in charge, not Larry. I highly doubt Donnie would allow Larry to select a player he was adamantly against - that's not how any business is run.


It was a weak draft, I can't blame anyone for taking a flyer on potential at 17. About 2/3 of the GM's in the league were goose egged on that draft.




Herb Simon rubber stamped pretty much whatever Walsh wanted. Walsh wasn't against Bird's picks of Williams or White or as you indicate they wouldn't have been drafted. Walsh apparently wasn't against Bird's great picks of Lorbek and Stanko either. They are ALL Bird's picks. Same as it was Bird's idea to sign Cabbages after scouting him for a year and half. Same as signing Maceo B. They are all bad decisions by Bird.

You might want to revise the 2/3 quote. 15 players after the 1st 5 players selected are still in the NBA. That's 2/3 of those selected in the 1st round are still in the NBA 5 years later.

Sookie
01-13-2011, 12:48 PM
Instead of arguing who had control with Walsh/Bird

Isn't it just fair to look at what Bird did by himself. I think that's decent, for what he's had to work with. The trades are in our favor, and the draft picks have been good, especially from where they were taken.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 12:50 PM
I'm not attempting to move any goal posts. I just don't understand how a guy who has had such little success in his job is completely absolved from any kind of criticism.

The guy got here in 2003 with the title of GM. Yet for some reason every good move gets put on the Bird ledger, and every bad move is the fault of someone else?

Morway has been the GM since summer 2008. Do you lay everything since then at his feet, or at Bird's feet?

Because if you are going to tell me you put it at Bird's feet, then you can't put 2003-2007 (and part of '08) at his feet because at the time he was the Morway to Donnie Walsh's Bird.

colts19
01-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Bullett, lets hash this out.

What exactly are my "Unrealistic complaints"?

My whole platform is that when Artest went off the reservation in 2005. It was time to clean house and do a complete ground up rebuild. Instead the Pacers decided to go the piecemeal route of cobbling together a team that could compete for an 8th seed, each and every year.


The "What could Larry do? He was drafting in the mid teens" argument doesn't hold water. We had no business keeping a roster in tact that kept us in the mid teens.

In the NBA, if you aren't a contender. You need to be in rebuild mode. Larry has instead chosen to be a "Floater"



Your turn.........

Let's be serious for a moment, all this stuff your saying may be true but here is something else that is true. How many teams are contenders. Year after Years it is the same teams. Boston, Lakers, San Antonio and every once in a while someone else. So whatever were doing wrong basically almost every other team in the league is doing it wrong to and most of them are doing it even worse than we are.

The arguments you are making could be made about every other GM and team president except for a few. When your a small market team without a superstar player, it is very hard to be a contender.

It's just not as easy as you are trying to make it. If it is then give me one example of a team that has done it.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 01:46 PM
Let's be serious for a moment, all this stuff your saying may be true but here is something else that is true. How many teams are contenders. Year after Years it is the same teams. Boston, Lakers, San Antonio and every once in a while someone else. So whatever were doing wrong basically almost every other team in the league is doing it wrong to and most of them are doing it even worse than we are.

The arguments you are making could be made about every other GM and team president except for a few. When your a small market team without a superstar player, it is very hard to be a contender.

It's just not as easy as you are trying to make it. If it is then give me one example of a team that has done it.


What roster state was Seattle/OKC in 5 years ago? What about the Knicks? What about Miami? Portland? Memphis?

My point is that there is a wrong and a correct way of going about a rebuild. Larry Bird choose to follow a blueprint that never worked for anyone else. Why he did that I have no idea?

Maybe he thought the roster was better than it was back then? Maybe he didn't want to stomach through a season or two of 20 wins? Maybe he thinks he's smarter than everyone else in the NBA? Maybe he was too stubborn to listen to other people give advice?

Bottom line is that this rebuild has been painfully slow, and it leaves us with very little on court upside. 6 years of lotto ball should net you more than 3 NBA rotation level players. At least in my own humble opinion?

aaronb
01-13-2011, 01:49 PM
Let's be serious for a moment, all this stuff your saying may be true but here is something else that is true. How many teams are contenders. Year after Years it is the same teams. Boston, Lakers, San Antonio and every once in a while someone else. So whatever were doing wrong basically almost every other team in the league is doing it wrong to and most of them are doing it even worse than we are.

The arguments you are making could be made about every other GM and team president except for a few. When your a small market team without a superstar player, it is very hard to be a contender.

It's just not as easy as you are trying to make it. If it is then give me one example of a team that has done it.


And let me add, that this very Pacers team was a solid NBA contender for 13 years. We were the San Antonio Spurs of the last generation. Just without the Titles.

colts19
01-13-2011, 02:02 PM
What roster state was Seattle/OKC in 5 years ago? What about the Knicks? What about Miami? Portland? Memphis?

My point is that there is a wrong and a correct way of going about a rebuild. Larry Bird choose to follow a blueprint that never worked for anyone else. Why he did that I have no idea?

Maybe he thought the roster was better than it was back then? Maybe he didn't want to stomach through a season or two of 20 wins? Maybe he thinks he's smarter than everyone else in the NBA? Maybe he was too stubborn to listen to other people give advice?

Bottom line is that this rebuild has been painfully slow, and it leaves us with very little on court upside. 6 years of lotto ball should net you more than 3 NBA rotation level players. At least in my own humble opinion?

OK here we go.

1 Knicks, 22-16. Got amarie, It's New York he wasn't coming here. Not a contender.

2. Memphis 18-20, I wouldn't trade them rosters. Not a contender

3. Portland, 20-19, Had 1st pick in draft and passed on Durant, if bird had done that you would be screaming. Not a contender.

4. OKC Lucked out getting Durant because of Portland, what would they be without him. Superstar. Still not a contender.

5. Prince James, and company were not going to get together to come to Indiana. May be a contender, but haven't won anything yet.

Still waiting for an example. Thanks

colts19
01-13-2011, 02:04 PM
And let me add, that this very Pacers team was a solid NBA contender for 13 years. We were the San Antonio Spurs of the last generation. Just without the Titles.

We went to 1 finals. Not hardly the Spurs

aaronb
01-13-2011, 02:39 PM
OK here we go.

1 Knicks, 22-16. Got amarie, It's New York he wasn't coming here. Not a contender.

2. Memphis 18-20, I wouldn't trade them rosters. Not a contender

3. Portland, 20-19, Had 1st pick in draft and passed on Durant, if bird had done that you would be screaming. Not a contender.

4. OKC Lucked out getting Durant because of Portland, what would they be without him. Superstar. Still not a contender.

5. Prince James, and company were not going to get together to come to Indiana. May be a contender, but haven't won anything yet.

Still waiting for an example. Thanks


Each and every one of those teams has a better roster than we do right now. Is your argument that every team that doesn't win the Title is a failure? Should the Pacers just contract now?

aaronb
01-13-2011, 02:42 PM
We went to 1 finals. Not hardly the Spurs


5 Eastern Conference finals and 1 Championship appearance is extremely successful.

Do you think the Manning era Colts are failures as well?

Since86
01-13-2011, 02:56 PM
Morway has been the GM since summer 2008. Do you lay everything since then at his feet, or at Bird's feet?

Because if you are going to tell me you put it at Bird's feet, then you can't put 2003-2007 (and part of '08) at his feet because at the time he was the Morway to Donnie Walsh's Bird.

I think it's fair to say he's ignoring your point.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 03:04 PM
I think it's fair to say he's ignoring your point.


What was the point exactly? That once again the PD faithful Bird loyalists will never hold him accountable for anything? I'm just curious what the excuse will be next year at this time.


Who could we have drafted at 11 overall?

How could Larry know that free agents didn't want to come to Indy?

If the CIB hadn't loomed over Larry all summer. He could have gotten somebody good?

The Simons are just trying to ruin Larry's legacy?


Rest assured it's going to be something. Write it down!

Day-V
01-13-2011, 03:05 PM
How quickly we forget. After Stephenson was drafted, he was THE pick., a pick Bird wanted in the 1st round. His star was bright and greatness was just waiting to happen... until his PR nightmare incident. So don't play the "he was a 2nd round pick" card with me. Speaking of 2nd round picks, what happened to Rolle? Remember, the Pacers had the 3 best players in summer league. 3 can't miss Bird picks.


What fantasy world are you living in? What, just because he had a good Summer League and a few members on PD got excited, he became the pick? I came on to PD after I got back from the Draft Party, and the talk was ALL about PG. He was the main guy.

xBulletproof
01-13-2011, 03:15 PM
My point is that there is a wrong and a correct way of going about a rebuild. Larry Bird choose to follow a blueprint that never worked for anyone else. Why he did that I have no idea?

See, we've been over this so many times, and you choose to simply ignore what you don't like, or don't want to hear. Perfect example, this thread. I simply asked you if we were in a better position today, than we were on the day Donnie Walsh quit. Do you answer? Of course not, because you don't want to admit that we're better off today, than the day Bird took over as the boss.

Regardless, I've been over this before with you. I've went through the Pacers draft picks, and records before the 90's team started winning on a high level. We repeatedly picked in the teens, and yet we went from a "rudderless and middle of the road" team, to a contender. This blueprint has worked, and it was for the very team you claim to root for. So you're wrong to claim it 'never worked for anyone else'. You asked for the 'unreasonable' part, well that's case in point. I'm not going to sit here and hash out our previous 10 page debate.

For your inability to answer simple questions, and remember that I've already disproved arguments you continue to make .... I'm going to give you a big fat, NFL Countdown style ...... C'mon Man!

colts19
01-13-2011, 03:18 PM
5 Eastern Conference finals and 1 Championship appearance is extremely successful.

Do you think the Manning era Colts are failures as well?

No I don't but I don't think their the Patroits either. So I wouldn't say they were. Just like you can't compare the Pacers to the Spurs, its not even close.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 03:25 PM
See, we've been over this so many times, and you choose to simply ignore what you don't like, or don't want to hear. Perfect example, this thread. I simply asked you if we were in a better position today, than we were on the day Donnie Walsh quit. Do you answer? Of course not, because you don't want to admit that we're better off today, than the day Bird took over as the boss.

Regardless, I've been over this before with you. I've went through the Pacers draft picks, and records before the 90's team started winning on a high level. We repeatedly picked in the teens, and yet we went from a "rudderless and middle of the road" team, to a contender. This blueprint has worked, and it was for the very team you claim to root for. So you're wrong to claim it 'never worked for anyone else'. You asked for the 'unreasonable' part, well that's case in point. I'm not going to sit here and hash out our previous 10 page debate.

For your inability to answer simple questions, and remember that I've already disproved arguments you continue to make .... I'm going to give you a big fat, NFL Countdown style ...... C'mon Man!


First off, you haven't disproved any of my points. It's impossible to because I'm correct. I'll go through your points now.

1. Are we better off now than when Walsh quit?

Yes, because we are finally getting out from onerous contracts to mediocre players. Are we a Good team though?

2. The 90's success WAS made possible be capitalizing on high draft picks.

Chuck Person (4th overall)
Rik Smits (2nd overall)
Wayman Tisdale (2nd overall)
Detlef (8th overall)
Reggie (11th overall)
Dale Davis (13th overall)

Were all Lotto (by todays standards) picks that were either directly instrumental or used to bring in other assets that led to our 90's-2004 success.

3. What simple questions am I not answering? Ask me something direct and I will gladly have the discussion.

Since86
01-13-2011, 03:34 PM
What was the point exactly? That once again the PD faithful Bird loyalists will never hold him accountable for anything? I'm just curious what the excuse will be next year at this time.


Who could we have drafted at 11 overall?

How could Larry know that free agents didn't want to come to Indy?

If the CIB hadn't loomed over Larry all summer. He could have gotten somebody good?

The Simons are just trying to ruin Larry's legacy?


Rest assured it's going to be something. Write it down!

What does your response have anything to do with what Hicks said? Nothing.

Here I'll quote it again, because clearly you've not read it both times it's been posted.


Morway has been the GM since summer 2008. Do you lay everything since then at his feet, or at Bird's feet?

Because if you are going to tell me you put it at Bird's feet, then you can't put 2003-2007 (and part of '08) at his feet because at the time he was the Morway to Donnie Walsh's Bird.

colts19
01-13-2011, 03:35 PM
First off, you haven't disproved any of my points. It's impossible to because I'm correct. I'll go through your points now.

1. Are we better off now than when Walsh quit?

Yes, because we are finally getting out from onerous contracts to mediocre players. Are we a Good team though?

2. The 90's success WAS made possible be capitalizing on high draft picks.

Chuck Person (4th overall)
Rik Smits (2nd overall)
Wayman Tisdale (2nd overall)
Detlef (8th overall)
Reggie (11th overall)
Dale Davis (11th overall)

Were all Lotto (by todays standards) picks that were either directly instrumental or used to bring in other assets that led to our 90's-2004 success.

3. What simple questions am I not answering? Ask me something direct and I will gladly have the discussion.

So like some other posters here you solution is to be so bad the you get a high draft pick and are lucky enough to be able to pick the right player to make your team a contender. How has that worked for the Clippers over the last 20 years. I want a team that trys to win, I don't expect the pacers to ever win the nba championship, but I do want them to try.

I will concede that once you have no chance to make the playoffs it is futile to not try to get a higher draft pick, and I would put the worst lineup possible out there for a few games to make that happen.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 03:39 PM
What does your response have anything to do with what Hicks said? Nothing.

Here I'll quote it again, because clearly you've not read it both times it's been posted.


I guess I am missing what the point is supposed to be? Best I can tell its that Larry wasn't at fault in the early 2000's because Donnie Walsh was still on the payroll. And now he isn't at fault, because David Morway is at fault?

Was that the point you are trying to make?

aaronb
01-13-2011, 03:42 PM
So like some other posters here you solution is to be so bad the you get a high draft pick and are lucky enough to be able to pick the right player to make your team a contender. How has that worked for the Clippers over the last 20 years. I want a team that trys to win, I don't expect the pacers to ever win the nba championship, but I do want them to try.

I will concede that once you have no chance to make the playoffs it is futile to not try to get a higher draft pick, and I would put the worst lineup possible out there for a few games to make that happen.


Unfortunately that is how a small/mid market team has to build if they want to be a true contender. It's just how the NBA is set up. It's a star driven league. And you just don't find star level players very often picking in the mid teens every year.

xBulletproof
01-13-2011, 03:47 PM
First off, lets ignore Dale and Reggie. According to you, that's where we're picking now, and that's unacceptable. So it should have been unacceptable then. That's part of the 'horrible' position we're in now.

Tisdale was traded for Lasalle Thompson and Randy Whitman, we capitalized on that? Chuck Person was traded for Sam Mitchell and Pooh Williams. We capitalized on that? So for a #2 pick, and #4 pick we wound up with one player who played when we were winning .... Sam Mitchell, who was a limited role player. Oh, and we didn't draft Detlef. We traded for him.

Hate to tell you, but that team was constructed around late lottery picks, (which is where you say you don't want to be, shame on Bird) and smart trades. So yes, this blueprint has worked.

Since86
01-13-2011, 03:48 PM
I guess I am missing what the point is supposed to be? Best I can tell its that Larry wasn't at fault in the early 2000's because Donnie Walsh was still on the payroll. And now he isn't at fault, because David Morway is at fault?

Was that the point you are trying to make?

Seriously?

You're blaming Larry for the actions Donnie took while he was in charge. If you're going to do that, then you need to be blaming David Morway now, because Larry is now in Donnie's position and David is in Larry's position.


Are you going to do that? No!

Why? Because this isn't about what happened, when it happened, and who was in charge. This is about you not liking Larry. Period.

You have placed blame on Larry for Donnie's decisions. Which is silly. Donnie was in charge, and he should be held accountable for the actions of the Pacers while in charge.

Larry should be held accountable for the actions of the Pacers while he is in charge.

If you're going to place the blame on Larry, for what Donnie did, then you need to be consistant and place the blame on David now. Which I also happen to think is silly, which is why it's a valid point.

You shouldn't place blame on Larry for what Donnie did. Whatever happened then, is on Donnie, not Larry.

Whatever happens now is on Larry, not David. Which is why you're *****ing about Larry, and not David......

I know that's pretty long winded so I'll summarize.

THEN
Donnie=boss
Larry=employee
Boss=make decisions=get blame
Employee=do what boss says=boss gets blame.

NOW
Larry=boss
David=employee
Boss=make decisions=get blame
Employee=do what boss says=boss gets blame


Get it?

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 03:50 PM
First off, lets ignore Dale and Reggie. According to you, that's where we're picking now, and that's unacceptable. So it should have been unacceptable then. That's part of the 'horrible' position we're in now.

Tisdale was traded for Lasalle Thompson and Randy Whitman, we capitalized on that? Chuck Person was traded for Sam Mitchell and Pooh Williams. We capitalized on that? So for a #2 pick, and #4 pick we wound up with one player who played when we were winning .... Sam Mitchell, who was a limited role player. Oh, and we didn't draft Detlef. We traded for him.

Hate to tell you, but that team was constructed around late lottery picks, (which is where you say you don't want to be, shame on Bird) and smart trades. So yes, this blueprint has worked.

And John Bender busted we lost AD for the #4 pick good post

Hicks
01-13-2011, 03:52 PM
What was the point exactly?

I think you know the point. Read what I wrote.

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 03:54 PM
The GM's job is to look at the talent and reports to the presdient and tell's him who he likes and who he doesnt like. and the presdient has the final say on everything

aaronb
01-13-2011, 03:55 PM
First off, lets ignore Dale and Reggie. According to you, that's where we're picking now, and that's unacceptable. So it should have been unacceptable then. That's part of the 'horrible' position we're in now.

Tisdale was traded for Lasalle Thompson and Randy Whitman, we capitalized on that? Chuck Person was traded for Sam Mitchell and Pooh Williams. We capitalized on that? So for a #2 pick, and #4 pick we wound up with one player who played when we were winning .... Sam Mitchell, who was a limited role player. Oh, and we didn't draft Detlef. We traded for him.

Hate to tell you, but that team was constructed around late lottery picks, (which is where you say you don't want to be, shame on Bird) and smart trades. So yes, this blueprint has worked.

Lasalle Thompson was a rotation piece on many of those Pacers teams. And Chuck Person turned into Sam Mitchell AND Mark Jackson who both contributed (and starred in Jackson's case)

Detlef Turned into Derrick McKey (9th overall pick in 1987).

Rik Smits turned out aces at #2 overall. And Reggie and Dale Davis were great picks in the late lotto.

It's not just about the draft. It's about stockpiling assets that you can move to get a Mark Jackson, or a Jalen Rose, or a Ron Artest, or a Brad Miller.



It's not about sitting on your thumbs are being patient.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 04:00 PM
I guess I am missing what the point is supposed to be? Best I can tell its that Larry wasn't at fault in the early 2000's because Donnie Walsh was still on the payroll. And now he isn't at fault, because David Morway is at fault?

Was that the point you are trying to make?

:picard:

From 2003 until summer 2008:

Walsh is in charge, Larry is his second in command, you blame Larry for everything.

From 2008 until at least January 2011:

Larry is in charge, Morway is his second in command, you blame Larry for everything.

The point is clear: You blame Bird even when he's not in command. So where's the consistency. You had no trouble blaming the #2 guy when it was Bird, but now that Morway is the #2 guy you don't blame him. Be consistent!

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:01 PM
Seriously?

You're blaming Larry for the actions Donnie took while he was in charge. If you're going to do that, then you need to be blaming David Morway now, because Larry is now in Donnie's position and David is in Larry's position.


Are you going to do that? No!

Why? Because this isn't about what happened, when it happened, and who was in charge. This is about you not liking Larry. Period.

You have placed blame on Larry for Donnie's decisions. Which is silly. Donnie was in charge, and he should be held accountable for the actions of the Pacers while in charge.

Larry should be held accountable for the actions of the Pacers while he is in charge.

If you're going to place the blame on Larry, for what Donnie did, then you need to be consistant and place the blame on David now. Which I also happen to think is silly, which is why it's a valid point.

You shouldn't place blame on Larry for what Donnie did. Whatever happened then, is on Donnie, not Larry.

Whatever happens now is on Larry, not David. Which is why you're *****ing about Larry, and not David......

I know that's pretty long winded so I'll summarize.

THEN
Donnie=boss
Larry=employee
Boss=make decisions=get blame
Employee=do what boss says=boss gets blame.

NOW
Larry=boss
David=employee
Boss=make decisions=get blame
Employee=do what boss says=boss gets blame


Get it?


It's nothing to do with me "Not liking Larry". It's about me wanting the Pacers to be a good team again. It's about my desire for us to hire a capable guy to run this front office.

And if it was anyone other than Larry Bird in that seat. I GUARANTEE that 99% of you would have been calling for his head 2 years ago (ala JOB right now)

Day-V
01-13-2011, 04:04 PM
And if it was anyone other than Larry Bird in that seat. I GUARANTEE that 99% of you would have been calling for his head 2 years ago (ala JOB right now)


:picardriker:

Pacergeek
01-13-2011, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=purdue101;1134983]

All we can look at is the draft and trades, which he's nailed. QUOTE]


Yep, he sure nailed Shawne Williams and James White as draft picks. How's Lance Stephenson doing? Let's not turn a blind eye towards the blunders of giving Foster a 2 year 12.6 mil extension when he did. Or picking up O'Brien's TO for a 4th year when he did. I guess those things don't count either, and Bird shouldn't be judged by them. Those are Bird's doings, and he's accountable for them whether you want to agree or not.

you forgot to mention the Dahntay Jones signing. arguably the biggest Bird blunder of them all.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:06 PM
:picard:

From 2003 until summer 2008:

Walsh is in charge, Larry is his second in command, you blame Larry for everything.

From 2008 until at least January 2011:

Larry is in charge, Morway is his second in command, you blame Larry for everything.

The point is clear: You blame Bird even when he's not in command. So where's the consistency. You had no trouble blaming the #2 guy when it was Bird, but now that Morway is the #2 guy you don't blame him. Be consistent!


So Larry had zero say in any decision that happened from 2003 until 2008? He put his reputation on the line as the teams GM just to watch Donnie Walsh tarnish his good name? I seriously doubt it was the case.

The more logical happening was this. Larry decided who he wanted to have on the roster. Donnie helped him work the trades and assist with the interactions with the other Front Office types. Guaranteed that both guys were in the same room when trades and contracts were being hammered out.

Day-V
01-13-2011, 04:07 PM
you forgot to mention the Dahntay Jones signing. arguably the biggest Bird blunder of them all.


If a GM's biggest blunder is signing a guy to a contract that pays only around 2.5 million a year, I'd say that GM is doing pretty good.

Pacergeek
01-13-2011, 04:07 PM
So like some other posters here you solution is to be so bad the you get a high draft pick and are lucky enough to be able to pick the right player to make your team a contender. How has that worked for the Clippers over the last 20 years. I want a team that trys to win, I don't expect the pacers to ever win the nba championship, but I do want them to try.

I will concede that once you have no chance to make the playoffs it is futile to not try to get a higher draft pick, and I would put the worst lineup possible out there for a few games to make that happen.

How did it work for the Grizzlies, who got stuck with Thabeet? Or how did it work for the 76ers, who are stuck with Evan Turner?

Pacergeek
01-13-2011, 04:10 PM
If a GM's biggest blunder is signing a guy to a contract that pays only around 2.5 million a year, I'd say that GM is doing pretty good.

You could just argue that Dahntay was the biggest blunder because he was signed for i think 4 years to help the team, but now in only his second year with the Pacers, he can't get off the bench. Clearly a bad signing by Bird.

Since86
01-13-2011, 04:11 PM
Can we please get this joker banned on the mere basis of being annoying?

Pacergeek
01-13-2011, 04:12 PM
Can we please get this joker banned on the mere basis of being annoying?

me or aaronb?

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:14 PM
Bird resigned as Pacers coach shortly after the end of the 2000 season, following through on his initial promise to coach for only 3 years. In 2003, he returned as the Pacers' President of Basketball Operations, where he oversees team personnel and coaching moves, as well as the team's draft selections. Bird promoted David Morway to general manager in 2008, but Bird still has the final say in basketball matters.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:16 PM
Can we please get this joker banned on the mere basis of being annoying?



All I'm doing is trying to have adult debate about the state of the franchise. If that is too hard for you to handle than its not really my problem.

xBulletproof
01-13-2011, 04:17 PM
You say ......


It's just how the NBA is set up. It's a star driven league. And you just don't find star level players very often picking in the mid teens every year.

Then you say ....


It's not just about the draft. It's about stockpiling assets that you can move to get a Mark Jackson, or a Jalen Rose, or a Ron Artest, or a Brad Miller.

It's not about sitting on your thumbs are being patient.

You change your story, and twist things however they're needed at that moment to fit your argument. So it is all about the draft, then it's not? Make up your damn mind.

It's bad when a buddy who reads the board sends me a text going "WTF is in the water in Memphis"? I can't continue to argue with someone this delusional anymore. I've got to ignore this guy or I'll be banned by tomorrow. When someone can't understand simple logic, changes the story based on the need of their argument at the moment and points the "bias" finger at everyone but himself .... Ha.

You're right guy, it's just you. You're the only person with a brain. Everyone else are just dumb Bird loving hillbillies. Even though my only memories of Bird involve him beating the Pacers and cussing him out over it, I must be crazy in love.

Get a grip.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:18 PM
How did it work for the Grizzlies, who got stuck with Thabeet? Or how did it work for the 76ers, who are stuck with Evan Turner?


They surely missed on that Thabeet pick. But they could have had Tyreke Evans, Rubio, or Steph Curry with that pick.

You still have to choose correctly. I'd rather have a shot at a star than no chance at all though?

Hicks
01-13-2011, 04:19 PM
you forgot to mention the Dahntay Jones signing. arguably the biggest Bird blunder of them all.

If that's true, he's done okay. That was relatively a small fry deal.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 04:20 PM
So Larry had zero say in any decision that happened from 2003 until 2008? He put his reputation on the line as the teams GM just to watch Donnie Walsh tarnish his good name? I seriously doubt it was the case.

The more logical happening was this. Larry decided who he wanted to have on the roster. Donnie helped him work the trades and assist with the interactions with the other Front Office types. Guaranteed that both guys were in the same room when trades and contracts were being hammered out.

Again, where is your consistency? If you have any problems with Larry Bird since summer of 2008, where is your harping about David Morway? If you had any problems with Larry Bird since BEFORE summer of 2008, where is your harping about Donnie Walsh? It's always Larry, Larry, Larry with you.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:21 PM
You say ......



Then you say ....



You change your story, and twist things however they're needed at that moment to fit your argument. So it is all about the draft, then it's not? Make up your damn mind.

It's bad when a buddy who reads the board sends me a text going "WTF is in the water in Memphis"? I can't continue to argue with someone this delusional anymore. I've got to ignore this guy or I'll be banned by tomorrow. When someone can't understand simple logic, changes the story based on the need of their argument at the moment and points the "bias" finger at everyone but himself .... Ha.

You're right guy, it's just you. You're the only person with a brain. Everyone else are just dumb Bird loving hillbillies. Even though my only memories of Bird is beating the Pacers and cussing him out over it, I must be crazy in love.

Get a grip.


What am I being delusional about? There is more than one thing that will go into making an NBA team. You need to draft well. You need to make smart trades. You need to manage your salary cap.

I'm glad that you are so happy about the state of the Pacers. Good for you!!!!

However a quick look at the attendance figures show that I'm not the only one who is disgruntled.

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 04:22 PM
So Larry had zero say in any decision that happened from 2003 until 2008? He put his reputation on the line as the teams GM just to watch Donnie Walsh tarnish his good name? I seriously doubt it was the case.

The more logical happening was this. Larry decided who he wanted to have on the roster. Donnie helped him work the trades and assist with the interactions with the other Front Office types. Guaranteed that both guys were in the same room when trades and contracts were being hammered out.

Like i said a GM's job is to scout players and tell the presdient who he likes but the presdient has the final say on all basketball moves. Is it that hard to understand?

Hicks
01-13-2011, 04:23 PM
All I'm doing is trying to have adult debate about the state of the franchise. If that is too hard for you to handle than its not really my problem.

An adult would/should recognize the inconsistency being pointed out to him. You blame the second in command, and not the commander, when the second in command is Bird.

Furthermore, when Bird is the commander, and someone else is second in command, suddenly you DON'T blame the second in command anymore.

BringJackBack
01-13-2011, 04:23 PM
Like i said a GM's job is to scout players and tell the presdient who he likes but the presdient has the final say on all basketball moves. Is it that hard to understand?


It obviously is when aaronb turns his cheek every time someone corrects him.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:24 PM
Again, where is your consistency? If you have any problems with Larry Bird since summer of 2008, where is your harping about David Morway? If you had any problems with Larry Bird since BEFORE summer of 2008, where is your harping about Donnie Walsh? It's always Larry, Larry, Larry with you.


David Morway can go right along with Larry. Donnie Walsh is already gone.

At least Donnie Walsh did build a long term contender here. Bird hasn't had any success of any kind.

xBulletproof
01-13-2011, 04:26 PM
...... I wonder if Taterhead will read this and understand now. :laugh:

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:28 PM
It obviously is when aaronb turns his cheek every time someone corrects him.

Nobody has corrected me on anything? All that has happened is the usual "It was someone else's fault".

Justin Tyme
01-13-2011, 04:29 PM
What fantasy world are you living in? What, just because he had a good Summer League and a few members on PD got excited, he became the pick? I came on to PD after I got back from the Draft Party, and the talk was ALL about PG. He was the main guy.


Paul George was my pick in this draft. I was livid over Bird picking Stephenson and Reid in the draft. The Pacers needed a big man not a SG who was going to be converted to a PG.

A FEW got excited?? It was from day one and increased into a frenzy in the Summer League. I was raked over the coals by more than a "few" posters who couldn't understand my displeasure of Stephenson and Reid picks by Bird. Over the next # of weeks, this forum touted how great a pick Stephenson was, and not by a "few" posters. It wasn't until Stephsenson's nightmare PR issue surface did the "love" for Stephenson start to cool off. You are apparently suffering from a bad case of "selective memory", go back and read the threads.

BringJackBack
01-13-2011, 04:30 PM
Nobody has corrected me on anything? All that has happened is the usual "It was someone else's fault".

Who was the freaking general manager from 2003-2008 when hell broke loose?! :mad:

Hicks
01-13-2011, 04:30 PM
David Morway can go right along with Larry. Donnie Walsh is already gone.

At least Donnie Walsh did build a long term contender here. Bird hasn't had any success of any kind.

So what's your explanation for why Walsh didn't stop Bird from making the bad decisions you didn't like from 2003-2008? After all, Walsh had a proven track record, Walsh is the better President/GM/CEO to you, so why didn't Walsh stop Bird from 2003-2008?

Hicks
01-13-2011, 04:32 PM
Nobody has corrected me on anything? All that has happened is the usual "It was someone else's fault".

You're not paying attention, man. We're saying everything from Summer '08 through today is on Bird.

But you seem to insist he twisted Donnie Walsh's arm from 2003-2008. I'm waiting to hear how he did that, and why Walsh didn't fight him?

Day-V
01-13-2011, 04:32 PM
You could just argue that Dahntay was the biggest blunder because he was signed for i think 4 years to help the team, but now in only his second year with the Pacers, he can't get off the bench. Clearly a bad signing by Bird.

But it's only worth 2.5 million a year. If a GM is going to make a mistake, that's the kind of mistake I could live with.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Again, where is your consistency? If you have any problems with Larry Bird since summer of 2008, where is your harping about David Morway? If you had any problems with Larry Bird since BEFORE summer of 2008, where is your harping about Donnie Walsh? It's always Larry, Larry, Larry with you.



Donnie Walsh is already gone. So no need to harp on his mismanagement. The difference is that Donnie Walsh had a hugely successful run for many years here. He continually picked the right players and made astute trades. He has shown himself to be a capable Front Office Executive (see NY now).

Yet it all falls apart almost immediately after Larry Bird becomes involved in the day to day decision making. Maybe it was just a coincidence? Maybe Donnie Walsh just forgot how to do his job for 4 years?

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 04:36 PM
David Morway can go right along with Larry. Donnie Walsh is already gone.

At least Donnie Walsh did build a long term contender here. Bird hasn't had any success of any kind.

Why would we fire Morway he got here in 08 and has helped bulid this franchise the guy is a pretty good talen evaluator i really like Morway.

Day-V
01-13-2011, 04:37 PM
Yet it all falls apart almost immediately after Larry Bird becomes involved in the day to day decision making.

When Larry first came in as the protege to Donnie, they fired Isiah, hired Carlisle, and made the Eastern Conference Finals with the #1 seed. And they had an even better team in 2004-2005, before having that shot to tell thanks to a guy that was on the team before Bird got there.


Just keep digging that hole.....

BringJackBack
01-13-2011, 04:38 PM
Donnie Walsh is already gone. So no need to harp on his mismanagement. The difference is that Donnie Walsh had a hugely successful run for many years here. He continually picked the right players and made astute trades. He has shown himself to be a capable Front Office Executive (see NY now).

Yet it all falls apart almost immediately after Larry Bird becomes involved in the day to day decision making. Maybe it was just a coincidence? Maybe Donnie Walsh just forgot how to do his job for 4 years?

Maybe he's just not as good as you think he is? 2003-2008 aren't his only **** ups. He's had plenty more.

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 04:41 PM
Maybe he's just not as good as you think he is? 2003-2008 aren't his only **** ups. He's had plenty more.

The Manleavy trade was unacceptable that is why we were stuck with so many bad contracts and the franchise suck the past few yrs who's idea was that trade?? WALSH

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:42 PM
So what's your explanation for why Walsh didn't stop Bird from making the bad decisions you didn't like from 2003-2008? After all, Walsh had a proven track record, Walsh is the better President/GM/CEO to you, so why didn't Walsh stop Bird from 2003-2008?



My theory is that the Simons wanted to bring Larry on board. He was a local hero, and they figured he would bring a lot of goodwill from the locals. Donnie Walsh was also getting old and having noted health problems.

So Larry was brought in to learn the GM ropes from Donnie Walsh (similar to the coach in waiting we sometimes see in CFB). Larry made the decisions on roster issues. Donnie helped Larry with contract negotiations and relations with other Front office types.

We did hear reports that the Simons wanted to keep Donnie over Larry. But Donnie retired before that came to a head. At least according to Pete Vecsey.

xBulletproof
01-13-2011, 04:43 PM
Maybe he's just not as good as you think he is? 2003-2008 aren't his only **** ups. He's had plenty more.

No way, he was hired in 1986, and it only took him 8 more years to take a .500 team (41-41, in 1986) to a 50 win total. He couldn't possibly have made any mistakes in there. That's an epic turnaround.

EPIC!!!

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 04:44 PM
My theory is that the Simons wanted to bring Larry on board. He was a local hero, and they figured he would bring a lot of goodwill from the locals. Donnie Walsh was also getting old and having noted health problems.

So Larry was brought in to learn the GM ropes from Donnie Walsh (similar to the coach in waiting we sometimes see in CFB). Larry made the decisions on roster issues. Donnie helped Larry with contract negotiations and relations with other Front office types.

We did hear reports that the Simons wanted to keep Donnie over Larry. But Donnie retired before that came to a head. At least according to Pete Vecsey.

:bs::bs::bs::bs::bs:

Donnie retired my *** NYK is retirement??

BringJackBack
01-13-2011, 04:46 PM
At least according to Pete Vecsey.

:-o

aaronb
01-13-2011, 04:47 PM
Who was the freaking general manager from 2003-2008 when hell broke loose?! :mad:


Larry Bird

BringJackBack
01-13-2011, 04:48 PM
Larry Bird

**** it. Just **** it. I don't care nor can I tell if you are being sarcastic but I'm done here.



Walsh apologist.

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 04:48 PM
Larry Bird

he meant presdient of basketball operations which was Donnie Walsh

BringJackBack
01-13-2011, 04:49 PM
he meant presdient of basketball operations which was Donnie Walsh

Even if I was wrong, he knew what I meant.

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 04:51 PM
Even if I was wrong, he knew what I meant.

President of basketball has the final say on all basketball decsions which Bird took over from Donnie in 08. Then he got Morway to be GM that same yr to replace himself.

Justin Tyme
01-13-2011, 06:33 PM
If Bird was Walsh's subordinate and any poor decision Bird made when Walsh was in charge is chargeable to Walsh not Bird, then poor decisions made by Bird's subordinates such as Morway and etc have to be Bird's fault b/c Bird's in charge and has final say.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 06:42 PM
If Bird was Walsh's subordinate and any poor decision Bird made when Walsh was in charge is chargeable to Walsh not Bird, then poor decisions made by Bird's subordinates such as Morway and etc have to be Bird's fault b/c Bird's in charge and has final say.

Bird just seemed so front and center the whole time. Posing with Artest in SI. Always doing Star interviews. Always the guy being quoted by the AP.

I'd not have the problem with his management if he just showed up in 2009.

ilive4sports
01-13-2011, 06:45 PM
If Bird was Walsh's subordinate and any poor decision Bird made when Walsh was in charge is chargeable to Walsh not Bird, then poor decisions made by Bird's subordinates such as Morway and etc have to be Bird's fault b/c Bird's in charge and has final say.

Exactly, but since Donnie Walsh is already gone all the blame goes on Larry Bird according to aaronb...

ilive4sports
01-13-2011, 06:47 PM
Bird just seemed so front and center the whole time. Posing with Artest in SI. Always doing Star interviews. Always the guy being quoted by the AP.

I'd not have the problem with his management if he just showed up in 2009.

So because of the press, it is Bird who made every single decision?

http://queenofsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Ochocinco_KosherHam-2T.gif

Plus you seem to be discounting that little thing call the brawl that completely ****ed out team...

aaronb
01-13-2011, 06:55 PM
So because of the press, it is Bird who made every single decision?

http://queenofsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Ochocinco_KosherHam-2T.gif

Plus you seem to be discounting that little thing call the brawl that completely ****ed out team...

Not saying it was 100% all Bird. Just doubt it was the 0% his fault that many are trying to claim.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 10:48 PM
Donnie Walsh is already gone. So no need to harp on his mismanagement. The difference is that Donnie Walsh had a hugely successful run for many years here. He continually picked the right players and made astute trades. He has shown himself to be a capable Front Office Executive (see NY now).

Yet it all falls apart almost immediately after Larry Bird becomes involved in the day to day decision making. Maybe it was just a coincidence? Maybe Donnie Walsh just forgot how to do his job for 4 years?

I'm sorry, who traded, and later signed to an extension, the guy who lead the Brawl in Detroit? Who made the Golden State trade? Hint: Not Bird.

With that said, I'm not saying Bird has clean hands of all that happened from 2003-2008 (he chose to publicly support Ron in 2005, he signed Sarunas, he fired Rick), but let's not forget who was still the man in the big chair those years: Donnie Walsh.

Then starting with the 2008 draft, what's there to be terribly upset about? I realize there are things to be critical of, but I don't think there's much of anything to be upset about.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 10:50 PM
My theory is that the Simons wanted to bring Larry on board. He was a local hero, and they figured he would bring a lot of goodwill from the locals. Donnie Walsh was also getting old and having noted health problems.

So Larry was brought in to learn the GM ropes from Donnie Walsh (similar to the coach in waiting we sometimes see in CFB). Larry made the decisions on roster issues. Donnie helped Larry with contract negotiations and relations with other Front office types.

We did hear reports that the Simons wanted to keep Donnie over Larry. But Donnie retired before that came to a head. At least according to Pete Vecsey.

It's been years, and I don't have the quotes in front of me, but I seem to recall it was Donnie Walsh who wanted Larry Bird both in 1997 and again in 2003, and he made it explicitly clear he wanted Larry and thought Larry was the right man to take over for him.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 10:51 PM
If Bird was Walsh's subordinate and any poor decision Bird made when Walsh was in charge is chargeable to Walsh not Bird, then poor decisions made by Bird's subordinates such as Morway and etc have to be Bird's fault b/c Bird's in charge and has final say.

Exactly.

Hicks
01-13-2011, 10:53 PM
Not saying it was 100% all Bird. Just doubt it was the 0% his fault that many are trying to claim.

Name one poster who said Bird has 0% of the blame for 2003-2008.

aaronb
01-13-2011, 11:31 PM
Name one poster who said Bird has 0% of the blame for 2003-2008.


There looks to be about 15 of them if you read back thru this thread.

And to be clear going forward. I have nothing against LB as a person. I'm just disgruntled that we've continued to be this bad for 6 going on 7 years now.

Also, honestly I'm a little bummed that so many fans on here don't seem to care? It's like having a local celeb run the show is more important than winning. Why can't we learn from other teams mistakes?

pacer4ever
01-13-2011, 11:49 PM
There looks to be about 15 of them if you read back thru this thread.

And to be clear going forward. I have nothing against LB as a person. I'm just disgruntled that we've continued to be this bad for 6 going on 7 years now.

Also, honestly I'm a little bummed that so many fans on here don't seem to care? It's like having a local celeb run the show is more important than winning. Why can't we learn from other teams mistakes?

LOL

Justin Tyme
01-14-2011, 03:46 PM
Exactly.


Well, then that means since Bird is in charge with the final say, that Jimmy's coaching is Bird's fault since he's Jimmy's boss and in charge with the final say. If Bird can't control his subodinates coach's coaching, he's at fault. A fish smells from the head down. So why fire Jimmy when Bird, his enabler, is in control with the final say? Shouldn't Bird be the one fired for enabling Jimmy to coach the way he has for the last 3 1/2 years since Bird is the one in control with the final say?

Walsh was in control and responsible for the hiring and enabling of Thomas coaching, so Bird is in control and responsible for hiring Jimmy and enabling Jimmy's coaching. Walsh was at fault for Thomas, so Bird has to be at fault for Jimmy for both Walsh and Bird in control with the final say. Instead of constantly seeing fire O'Brien threads, it shoukl be Fire Bird threads. The buck stops with Bird.

Mr. Sobchak
01-14-2011, 04:49 PM
Paul George was my pick in this draft. I was livid over Bird picking Stephenson and Reid in the draft. The Pacers needed a big man not a SG who was going to be converted to a PG.

A FEW got excited?? It was from day one and increased into a frenzy in the Summer League. I was raked over the coals by more than a "few" posters who couldn't understand my displeasure of Stephenson and Reid picks by Bird. Over the next # of weeks, this forum touted how great a pick Stephenson was, and not by a "few" posters. It wasn't until Stephsenson's nightmare PR issue surface did the "love" for Stephenson start to cool off. You are apparently suffering from a bad case of "selective memory", go back and read the threads.

First of all, Reid wasn't the pick...He was used to acquire Magnum. Reid doesn't count because he is who OKC wanted us to draft in that spot. If you trade picks, you allow the other team to make the selection for you.

Secondly, It continually amazes me to see you lament the Stephenson and Rolle picks because they weren't the guys YOU wanted. Who were they? Let's see...Hamady N'daiye and Jerome Jordan.

Where is Jerome Jordan right now? Oh that's right he's in EUROPE for god's sake...He's not even good enough to play in the NBA right now.

Hamady N'daiye has played 11 total minutes this year and scored 3...that's right...3 TOTAL points. He didn't even have that great of a college pedigree. He failed to average over 12 points per game as a SENIOR in college at RUTGERS. Yes, he blocked a few shots and is athletic, but what on earth have you seen that makes you think he will ever be a rotation player in the NBA?

Yes, I agree with you that Bird has made a few mistakes during his tenure, but this argument is really starting to **** me off. Stephensen is one of the greatest high school players in New York basketball HISTORY. Yes, he has character concerns - that's how we were able to get him in the second round. But we were able to swing for the fences with this one because we have a locker room of harding working character guys to mentor him. Lance Stephensen has more talent in his foot than Jerome Jordan or Hamady N'daiye do in their entire bodies.

Also, you complain about us needing a big...We took one. His name is Magnum Rolle. We just didn't happen to have a roster spot for him. So if that's the case, how could we find room for someone like N'Daiye or Jordan who aren't even as good?

Who has made an impact so far in the second round that you wanted? Who would you take if we could do it again? I find it funny that you're ready to throw in the towel on Lance, but your guys haven't done anything either.

Lance will get his turn and he will be far better than Hamady freakin N'Daiye or Jerome Jordan.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2011, 07:45 PM
First of all, Reid wasn't the pick...He was used to acquire Magnum. Reid doesn't count because he is who OKC wanted us to draft in that spot. If you trade picks, you allow the other team to make the selection for you.



Secondly, It continually amazes me to see you lament the Stephenson and Rolle picks because they weren't the guys YOU wanted. Who were they? Let's see...Hamady N'daiye and Jerome Jordan.

Where is Jerome Jordan right now? Oh that's right he's in EUROPE for god's sake...He's not even good enough to play in the NBA right now.



Hamady N'daiye has played 11 total minutes this year and scored 3...that's right...3 TOTAL points.

Yes, I agree with you that Bird has made a few mistakes during his tenure, but this argument is really starting to **** me off. Stephensen is one of the greatest high school players in New York basketball HISTORY. Yes, he has character concerns - that's how we were able to get him in the second round. But we were able to swing for the fences with this one because we have a locker room of harding working character guys to mentor him. Lance Stephensen has more talent in his foot than Jerome Jordan or Hamady N'daiye do in their entire bodies.

Also, you complain about us needing a big...We took one. His name is Magnum Rolle. We just didn't happen to have a roster spot for him. So if that's the case, how could we find room for someone like N'Daiye or Jordan who aren't even as good?

Who has made an impact so far in the second round that you wanted? Who would you take if we could do it again? I find it funny that you're ready to throw in the towel on Lance, but your guys haven't done anything either.

Lance will get his turn and he will be far better than Hamady freakin N'Daiye or Jerome Jordan.



Reid WAS the pick. I distinctly remember Adam Silverman coming out and saying the Pacers select Reid. It wasn't announcerd later about the trade. If you have a LINK to disprove this, I'd love to read it.

Granted James is in Europe, but then where is Rolle? There isn't anything wrong with going to Europe to get some experience b4 trying the NBA. It worked well for A. Davis and the Pacers.

As far a N'Daiye, he's scored 3 more points and played 11 more minutes in the NBA than that fantastic NY phemonema Lance Stephernsen has. Lance has so much talent yet after 36 games he still hasn't played a minute in the NBA, and nearly all season has been inactive. That really says alot for such a "talented" pick that you tout on about. Not to mention Bird gave him, a 2nd rounder, a guaranteed contract. James White #II.

And I'm tired of listening to apologists as you try to spin bed time fairy tales too. Stephenson can't play "D" nor can he play PG. That was obvious in the pre-season games, but just keep looking through those rose colored glasses.

I'd still have taken either Jordan or N'Daiye. Neither would be any worse than than Rolle, and far less a PR problem than the phenomenal NY player Lance Stephenson. People like you make me ill by willing to swing for the fences knowing Stephenson is another PR problem away from dragging the image down that the franchise has tried so hard to rebuild. I call it reckless blindness.

BringJackBack
01-14-2011, 08:13 PM
Reid WAS the pick. I distinctly remember Adam Silverman coming out and saying the Pacers select Reid. It wasn't announcerd later about the trade. If you have a LINK to disprove this, I'd love to read it.

Granted James is in Europe, but then where is Rolle? There isn't anything wrong with going to Europe to get some experience b4 trying the NBA. It worked well for A. Davis and the Pacers.

As far a N'Daiye, he's scored 3 more points and played 11 more minutes in the NBA than that fantastic NY phemonema Lance Stephernsen has. Lance has so much talent yet after 36 games he still hasn't played a minute in the NBA, and nearly all season has been inactive. That really says alot for such a "talented" pick that you tout on about. Not to mention Bird gave him, a 2nd rounder, a guaranteed contract. James White #II.

And I'm tired of listening to apologists as you try to spin bed time fairy tales too. Stephenson can't play "D" nor can he play PG. That was obvious in the pre-season games, but just keep looking through those rose colored glasses.

I'd still have taken either James or N'Daiye. Neither would be any worse than than Rolle, and far less a PR problem than the phenomenal NY player Lance Stephenson. People like you make me ill by willing to swing for the fences knowing Stephenson is another PR problem away from dragging the image down that the franchise has tried so hard to rebuild. I call it reckless blindness.

Wow. It was a second round pick. What percentage of 2nd round picks make the big leagues long term again?

Oooh. Danny Ainge drafted Lester Hudson as a second round pick. Boston must as well crucify him.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2011, 08:46 PM
[QUOTE=BringJackBack;1136395]

Wow. It was a second round pick. /QUOTE]


The steal of the draft was a 2nd round pick! .... Landry Fields. Just think Walsh had the 2 picks b4 the Pacers and picked Fields and Rautins over Stephenson. Walsh decided not to swing for the fences on such a great NYC player. There must have been a "reason."

xBulletproof
01-14-2011, 09:19 PM
Reid WAS the pick. I distinctly remember Adam Silverman coming out and saying the Pacers select Reid.

Really?

Jerryd Bayless was announced as drafted by the Pacers too, and Bird said it was a prearranged deal before the draft. Just because the Pacers 'drafted' him, doesn't mean he was ever going to be on our team, even as they were announcing that the 'Pacers' drafted him.

:hmm:

BringJackBack
01-14-2011, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=BringJackBack;1136395]

Wow. It was a second round pick. /QUOTE]


The steal of the draft was a 2nd round pick! .... Landry Fields. Just think Walsh had the 2 picks b4 the Pacers and picked Fields and Rautins over Stephenson. Walsh decided not to swing for the fences on such a great NYC player. There must have been a "reason."

Same thing. It's hit or miss. Donnie also drafted Mark Pope. Its really a crap shoot unless if you are San Antonio and you REALLY have your work cut out for you.

Justin Tyme
01-14-2011, 09:50 PM
Really?

Jerryd Bayless was announced as drafted by the Pacers too, and Bird said it was a prearranged deal before the draft. Just because the Pacers 'drafted' him, doesn't mean he was ever going to be on our team, even as they were announcing that the 'Pacers' drafted him.

:hmm:



Yes, as you said, Bayless WAS drafted by the Pacers. It doesn't matter what happened after the Pacers drafted the player. The point is the Pacers drafted Reid, unlike what another poster stated. Either, the Pacers didn't draft Reid, or they did draft him. Reid WAS drafted by the Pacers, and traded afterwards.

Alex Johnson was drafted by the Pacers, and then traded for James White who had been drafted earlier in the 2nd round. Bottom line is Johnson was still drafted by the Pacers.

xBulletproof
01-14-2011, 09:55 PM
Yes, as you said, Bayless WAS drafted by the Pacers. It doesn't matter what happened after the Pacers drafted the player. The point is the Pacers drafted Reid, unlike what another poster stated. Either, the Pacers didn't draft Reid, or they did draft him. Reid WAS drafted by the Pacers, and traded afterwards.

You're missing the point, in the trade with Portland we were under obligation to take whoever THEY wanted. Just because it was announced that we drafted him, doesn't mean it was our decision. We were drafting FOR Portland, otherwise we just take Rush at #11.

You really can't be this blind.

Hicks
01-15-2011, 01:43 AM
Well, then that means since Bird is in charge with the final say, that Jimmy's coaching is Bird's fault since he's Jimmy's boss and in charge with the final say. If Bird can't control his subodinates coach's coaching, he's at fault. A fish smells from the head down. So why fire Jimmy when Bird, his enabler, is in control with the final say? Shouldn't Bird be the one fired for enabling Jimmy to coach the way he has for the last 3 1/2 years since Bird is the one in control with the final say?

Walsh was in control and responsible for the hiring and enabling of Thomas coaching, so Bird is in control and responsible for hiring Jimmy and enabling Jimmy's coaching. Walsh was at fault for Thomas, so Bird has to be at fault for Jimmy for both Walsh and Bird in control with the final say. Instead of constantly seeing fire O'Brien threads, it shoukl be Fire Bird threads. The buck stops with Bird.

I don't know why you felt the need to make a discussion about upper management yet another Jim O'Brien discussion, or furthermore why you're directing it at me after the thread I made about what you're talking about not long ago.

Mr. Sobchak
01-15-2011, 03:08 AM
Reid WAS the pick. I distinctly remember Adam Silverman coming out and saying the Pacers select Reid. It wasn't announcerd later about the trade. If you have a LINK to disprove this, I'd love to read it.

Granted James is in Europe, but then where is Rolle? There isn't anything wrong with going to Europe to get some experience b4 trying the NBA. It worked well for A. Davis and the Pacers.

As far a N'Daiye, he's scored 3 more points and played 11 more minutes in the NBA than that fantastic NY phemonema Lance Stephernsen has. Lance has so much talent yet after 36 games he still hasn't played a minute in the NBA, and nearly all season has been inactive. That really says alot for such a "talented" pick that you tout on about. Not to mention Bird gave him, a 2nd rounder, a guaranteed contract. James White #II.

And I'm tired of listening to apologists as you try to spin bed time fairy tales too. Stephenson can't play "D" nor can he play PG. That was obvious in the pre-season games, but just keep looking through those rose colored glasses.

I'd still have taken either Jordan or N'Daiye. Neither would be any worse than than Rolle, and far less a PR problem than the phenomenal NY player Lance Stephenson. People like you make me ill by willing to swing for the fences knowing Stephenson is another PR problem away from dragging the image down that the franchise has tried so hard to rebuild. I call it reckless blindness.

Who cares if Reid was ANNOUNCED as the Pacers pick?...He was picked because that's who OKC wanted as a part of the trade..If you don't see this, then I really don't know what to tell you.

BTW, here is your link...
http://www.nba.com/thunder/news/reidbio_100629.html


Few draft pundits had Ryan Reid on their draft boards.

But the Thunder had been following the Florida State product closely throughout his four-year career. And like Executive Vice President/General Manager Sam Presti said, there are no silver bullets when it comes to evaluating talent.

Oklahoma City heard the Florida State coaching staff rave about Reid’s attitude and defensive abilities, about his work ethic both on and off the court.

Off it, Reid became the first member of his family to graduate college.

On it, he was so fundamentally sound as a defender that FSU head coach Leonard Hamilton told the Orlando Sentinel earlier this season that he wanted to make an instructional video on how to defend based on Reid’s defensive techniques.

“I would recommend anybody buy a video of him teaching people how to guard the low post,” Hamilton told the Sentinel.

So based on his character and drive alone, Reid embodies what the Thunder is all about, which is why the organization swapped second-round picks with the Indiana Pacers to get him during last Thursday’s NBA Draft.


The THUNDER had been following Reid for 4 years, not the Pacers. The Thunder knew that they could trade down and pick up some extra cash AND still get the guy they wanted.

XBulletproof said it better than I could...


You're missing the point, in the trade with Portland we were under obligation to take whoever THEY wanted. Just because it was announced that we drafted him, doesn't mean it was our decision. We were drafting FOR Portland, otherwise we just take Rush at #11.

You really can't be this blind.


The only reason Rolle isn't on the team is because we ran out of roster spots. Jordan, on the other hand, simply sucks. The Knicks have no backup center and if he was any good he would be playing. Simple as that. That's not to say he can't get better with some seasoning in Europe, but the dude is already 24 years old.

If I'm a blind optimist and apologist, you're a debbie downer - constantly railing Bird for everything from draft picks to contract negotiations. Quick, give me 10 players in the last 5 drafts from the second round that have become NBA role players. Better yet, give me a few after pick 50....I'm not even sure there are any.

Point being, second round picks rarely ever amount to anything. That's why we were willing to overlook a few of his past transgressions. This team needs more TALENT at every position.

Also, I disagree with the notion that Lance is even viewed by the front office as a point guard. I think they were trying him out there because we only had Ford and AJ. He is a shooting guard...and his D will be serviceable at that position. We're stacked at the wing right now so Lance hasn't gotten his shot yet. But he will - he's only 20 years old.

oxxo
01-15-2011, 04:50 AM
Why are people still responding to aaronb? He doesn't use or listen to logic or reason, so what's the point? He hates Larry Bird and no one is going to be able to convince him otherwise regardless of any cold hard facts put in front of him.

Justin Tyme
01-15-2011, 11:18 AM
Quick, give me 10 players in the last 5 drafts from the second round that have become NBA role players. Better yet, give me a few after pick 50....I'm not even sure there are any.



McBOB
Carl Landry... who I would have liked Bird getting when he was a RFA.
Marc Gasol... a nice young core piece for the Griz.
Mario Chalmers... who I liked as a 2nd round pick.
Blair... a favorite of Seth.
Chase Budinger... Seth again.
Sonny Weems... Bulls b4 injury.
Dragovic(sp?)... b/u pg for Parker.
Milsap... which many on this board wanted at PF earlier this season.
Glen Davis... need I say more with his championship ring.
Landry Fields... Knicks
Bill Walker... Knicks
Ramon Sessions... who I have always liked.
DeAndre Jordan... Clips who has a PD thread on him of late.
Mbah a Moute... Bucks


#50 and below.

The supposed steal of the the 09 draft, AJ Price, if he could get any PT.


You are right I don't have much in the way of positive things to say about Bird, but I give him credit when it is due... I always have. I have been easy on Bird this year compared to previous years. I have never felt Bird is FO material, but was a GREAT BB PLAYER. I have my own view why Walsh hired Bird, and it will never change. If you and others like Bird POB, that's your perogative, but I get irritated with posters who feel he hasn't made mistakes and won't admit to them. I will always show he has and what they are. You won't change what I think of Bird, and I won't change how you think about Bird. But BOTH views should be allowed to be voiced whether you and others agree with "those" that feel Bird has made mistakes. A forum is a place where BOTH sides can express their views whether YOU feel they are negative b/c they don't agree with your views. I believe this has been done in a civil fashion.


My point was that the Pacers drafted Reid. It doesn't matter if there was a pre-arranged agreement between teams. The Pacers still drafted Reid and Bayless, Portland drafted Rush, and OKC drafted Rolle... draft results show it as such. Point made, conversation over! Thank you and have a great day. :)

BringJackBack
01-15-2011, 12:12 PM
So thats 15 guys out of 150. It's a crap shoot.

Sookie
01-15-2011, 12:26 PM
My point was that the Pacers drafted Reid. It doesn't matter if there was a pre-arranged agreement between teams. The Pacers still drafted Reid and Bayless, Portland drafted Rush, and OKC drafted Rolle... draft results show it as such. Point made, conversation over! Thank you and have a great day. :)

But they drafted those players because the other teams told them too. That's how that trade works..

Honestly, I don't think that many people overrate Bird. He's done a decent job. I think some are underrating.

Justin Tyme
01-15-2011, 12:37 PM
So thats 15 guys out of 150. It's a crap shoot.


I'm sure if I spent the time researching I could find more. A # of years ago I did research on how many 2nds were still in the league after 5 years. IIRC, it was 34% which is a lot higher than a good many posters choose to believe.

As far as drafting goes, it's all a crap shoot, using your terminology. Some GM's are better than others at it. I always thought the best thing about Zeke was his ability to judge talent and for the most part draft well. Some GM's just have a knack at finding gems in the 20-30 spots and in the 2nd round.

BringJackBack
01-15-2011, 12:40 PM
I'm sure if I spent the time researching I could find more. A # of years ago I did research on how many 2nds were still in the league after 5 years. IIRC, it was 34% which is a lot higher than a good many posters choose to believe.

As far as drafting goes, it's all a crap shoot, using your terminology. Some GM's are better than others at it. I always thought the best thing about Zeke was his ability to judge talent and for the most part draft well. Some GM's just have a knack at finding gems in the 20-30 spots and in the 2nd round.

Yeah, I can't disagree there. It's possible to find someone, but the likelihood is still against a GM's favor though.

D-BONE
01-15-2011, 12:44 PM
Hmm...our young core seems to be slipping in the standings with each passing week.

At minimum Hibbert and Rush are far enough in that they should be showing significant advances. Yet here they are treading water or even regressing.

Any discussion of our core needs to be qualified. It is a core of potential role players and/or solid back ups. There is no legit impact power in it, which is obviously what we desperately need to make a jump in overall team quality.

Justin Tyme
01-15-2011, 01:23 PM
But they drafted those players because the other teams told them too. That's how that trade works..


If OKC thought so much of Reid, they could have drafted him themselves at #51 instead of having the Pacers do it at #57. What did the Pacers give them that was so valuable for them to chance losing Reid to another team drafting after them when they supposedly wanted him so badly? IIRC, it was a couple $100,000, so they thought so much of Reid they were willing to chance losing him to another team drafting before the Pacers for the money. WOW!

Bird paid money plus Reid to get Rolle who got cut. Bird traded Alex Johnson and 2 extra 2nds to get James White who got cut. Bird stated since the Pacers traded their 2007 1st in the Harrington fiasco that he'd get a pick in the draft. It was commonly believed he was referring to a 1st pick. Instead, he came up with a 2nd pick from Orlando where he drafted Stanko. Less than 10 picks later the Lakers drafted Marc Gasol. GRRR

Bird's 2nd round acquistions:
Lorbek
Stanko
James White
Price
Stephenson
Rolle

Only one has ever logged any minutes in a Pacers uni, and too few at that!
You'll have to admit Price is the best of the bunch. Seth has a far better record on 2nd round picks than Bird the POB! I'm sure for some monetary inducement Seth would be more than willing to pick a "winner" for Bird in the 2nd round this June. I know I'd feel more confident in the outcome!

xBulletproof
01-15-2011, 01:41 PM
Less than 10 picks later the Lakers drafted Marc Gasol. GRRR

You could play that game with every GM in the league. They'd all look equally silly.

We can have complaints about Bird, but be realistic. 2nd round picks aren't something worth throwing a fit about.

Justin Tyme
01-15-2011, 05:09 PM
2nd round picks aren't something worth throwing a fit about.


I know I'm in the minority, but I view EVERY pick as a valuable building tool... even 2nd rd picks. A wasted pick is a lost future asset to build with whether it is a 2nd rd pick or a 1st round pick. It bothers me other teams can draft players in the 2nd round that helps their team and Bird record of drafting contributing players in the 2nd round sux. It gripes me to see the daily box scores and see other teams 2nd rd picks, like Blair last night, making great contributions while the only Bird 2nd round pick who has ever played a NBA minute is Price. It just grates me to no end. I'm a firm believer there are gems to be found in the 2nd rd, and I feel the Pacers should be a team finding those gems. JMOAA

xBulletproof
01-15-2011, 05:42 PM
I think most people view 2nd rounders as a bonus. If you get one that pans out, great. Otherwise it's what you expected. Look at this breakdown of draft picks results in the past ...

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

In the 2nd round for each pick there's a total of 100% right? For all 30 picks it's a total of 3000%. I'm going to add up the "Deep Bench", "Bust" and "Did Not Play" percentages and see what the total is. I'd bet it's enormously high.

OMG I typed that before adding it up .... and I'm even shocked at the numbers. 2,550. What does that mean? That means from 1989 to 2008, that 15% of 2nd round draft picks have become a role player or better according to this chart. 85% became bench warmers, busts, or never played.

xBulletproof
01-15-2011, 05:54 PM
Just to add context to what's posted above, that 15% means that roughly 4 players per year in the 2nd round end up as role players, or better.

4 hits, 26 misses.

I have a hard time knocking a guy for not overcoming such overwhelming odds.

Justin Tyme
01-15-2011, 06:25 PM
I think most people view 2nd rounders as a bonus. If you get one that pans out, great. Otherwise it's what you expected. Look at this breakdown of draft picks results in the past ...

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

In the 2nd round for each pick there's a total of 100% right? For all 30 picks it's a total of 3000%. I'm going to add up the "Deep Bench", "Bust" and "Did Not Play" percentages and see what the total is. I'd bet it's enormously high.

OMG I typed that before adding it up .... and I'm even shocked at the numbers. 2,550. What does that mean? That means from 1989 to 2008, that 15% of 2nd round draft picks have become a role player or better according to this chart. 85% became bench warmers, busts, or never played.


Who are you trying to snow? That is their stats/system, if one looked hard enough one could probably find stats to show my thinking is more in line. Stats can be twisted and manuvered to show anything one wants.

Lets just end this debate with you and I having different views about the value of 2nd rd picks.

xBulletproof
01-15-2011, 06:49 PM
Who are you trying to snow? That is their stats/system, if one looked hard enough one could probably find stats to show my thinking is more in line. Stats can be twisted and manuvered to show anything one wants.

Lets just end this debate with you and I having different views about the value of 2nd rd picks.

Trying to snow? Who says that? :laugh:

Regardless this isn't a chart I made specifically tailored to this argument. I would be incredibly shocked if you could find someone who said any good amount of 2nd rounders amounted to anything. They don't. You can name the few that did so easily only because they stand out so well.