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View Full Version : Okay, so as UB pointed out, we run pick and rolls, but...



Hicks
01-11-2011, 02:42 PM
... how many of them are set plays, and how many of them are a spontaneous component of "Quick?"

I think this is a significant question because, as has been discussed here and by the players/coach, Quick involves every player making reads and knowing what to do based on what they see (and do it all quickly). Obviously this often isn't working out the way it is supposed to because not everyone makes the correct read or move, or they don't do it fast enough. They're often not on the same page.

Isn't it then fair to assume that whenever a pick is set for the ball handler within Quick, it may technically be a "pick and roll/pop", but how many times in that scenario:

1) Is the ball handler expecting it and ready to quickly and effectively utilize it?

2) Are the other 3 players in good positions (spacing-wise) to accommodate a pick and roll?

3) Good spacing or bad, how often do the other 3 players realize what's going on as it's happening and are prepared to catch the ball if it comes their way, and for that matter, to shoot the ball?

Can we agree that there's a difference between what we're often seeing here with our pick and rolls and a set offense / plays designed specifically around pick and rolls?

Unclebuck
01-11-2011, 02:47 PM
To answer your first question I would guess probably about 40 -50 % (in the Spurs game) were from set plays. The others were just reads by the players.

Hicks
01-11-2011, 02:56 PM
Wouldn't the offense be better off if that % was closer to 100% than 40 or 50%?

Unclebuck
01-11-2011, 03:01 PM
Wouldn't the offense be better off if that % was closer to 100% than 40 or 50%?

Maybe.

But doing a random pick and roll in a early offense type of situation is often a good way to keep the defense off balance. I would say a decent % of the random pick and rolls were in early offense before the defense was set.

Having said that sure it is best to have the other players spaced correctly so it is more dificult to help on the ball handler or picker.

most of the pick and rolls we ran in the Spurs game were what I would call half-hearted. Big men didn't set hard picks, ball handler was sloppy. A lot of them worked well because the Spurs were maybe not ready for the Tyler - Collison pick and roll. it appeared they were ready for the Garnger - Hibbert pick and rolls and stopped those rather easily.

90'sNBARocked
01-11-2011, 03:02 PM
The problem to me is Jim wants the ball constantly moving, and thus out of the PG's hands. Now this makes some sense to me as we have inferior players who have a much better chance of scoring off a wide open jumper/back door cut , then going one on one

However, to me the true definition of a PG is a PLAYMAKER, and how can a PG be a play maker if Jim wants the ball out of his hands completely

We dont run a typical PNR, (think stockton/malone, nash/stoudamire) once the pcik is set, the ball goes back to Roy in the post, who looks for cutters

In a typical PnR, after collison would go around the pick, then the player who set the pick would roll to the basket, and either receive a pass from DC or DC would take it to the hoop

That usually doesn't happen

Pacers4Life
01-11-2011, 03:05 PM
1) I don't think it's so much the ball handler in these P&R situations... Roy Hibbert is a pretty awful Roll man IMO. I'm 6' tall so I really have no true heresay, but I play pickup ball. I set picks, I play big (sometimes). And it just seems to me that WHOMEVER it is (not just Big Roy) seems timid with whatever decision they make (off of said screen they're setting). Whether its to get to the hole, start a post up, just swing out for the jump shot, whatever it is.. They just don't seem sure.

2) As for the other 3 players... Seriously... A lot of players are looking lost in any kind of pick and roll. Besides Mike and Josh, who I think both understand the floor very well for their position and adjust accordingly. (Josh needs to see the floor btw. Every game.)

3) Oh jeez... My #2 is like this one. I'm in a poor mood... we're 14-20... but I really do need to see some drastic offensive improvement from us. I watch all games but I'm not the best as picking up whats reeeaallly going on, too focused on the actual game ya know? But we do, we look lost.

Somebody help us.

Sobotka
01-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Some interesting discussion (generally) about PnR's from a few months back.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sports/basketball/20pick.html

Interesting quotes about Utah


Perhaps the most enlightening revelation in all this is that the Jazz uses the pick-and-roll so sparingly. Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer are viewed as extensions of John Stockton and Karl Malone, the retired Utah stars who became the pick-and-roll’s most notable tandem in the N.B.A. Jerry Sloan coached both pairs of players, but Utah’s offense now revolves around cuts and reads.

“Everybody just associates pick-and-rolls with us because of John and Karl,” Williams said. “They ran it out a lot, but similar to us. We run it toward the end of the game when we need baskets, but we try to execute our offense first.”

Sloan said: “You’ve got to learn how to play other ways than just strictly pick-and-roll. Most of the time, other guys are just standing in the pick-and-roll. We try to run other stuff where they’re not standing and stay active in other parts of the game.”

What Sloan says makes sense. The PnR/PnP is basically a two-man play, and you basically want the other three guys out of the way.

It seems to me that the problem that some of the players have, specifically Rush and Hibbert, is not necessarily not making the right read or making different reads than other players. It's that they're not making any read at all. If, as Sloan notes, the PnR tends to make spectators out of the other players, then PnR's might make a guy like Rush even more passive, assuming he's one of the other three.

Pacers4Life
01-11-2011, 03:12 PM
So in my poor estimation... The big man needs to be that.. a BIG MAN and actually SET A GOOD SCREEN.
The Ball handler in question needs to WANT to use it (as said by UB it keeps the D off balance) and if it doesn't work.. the ball is either down low to come back out or vise versa... And it took like 5 secs...
The other players need to quit picking their butts and REACT (as do the screener and ball handler) to what they see. Empty lane/ Fill that ****! Defender not lookin/ Cuutt!! D saggin off you a tad? Space out for the open J somewhere.

Is it not this simple?

SMosley21
01-11-2011, 03:17 PM
We're running the PnR with the wrong player setting the pick. Roy isn't quick enough, nor does he have a consistent enough spot up 15-18 footer to be the guy setting the pick. We need to be running that play with Darren handling the ball and someone with a consistent jumper who is also athletic enough to roll to the basket quickly. The closest thing we have to that right now would be Tyler or Josh (although Josh's jumper isn't consistent at all).

Since86
01-11-2011, 03:21 PM
Using Roy as the picker is just setting the whole thing up for failure, IMHO. The screen not only needs to be a good one, but the player setting the screen needs to be able to have the mobility to either pop or roll.

While Roy has the ability to hit a jumpshot after he pops, he really doesn't have the mobility for it. It's too slow, and defenders have the time to recover.

I really don't think the Pacers have the bodies to run a PnR game.


I agree the Pacers need a quick motion offense. But it should be structured around dribble penetration, and not jumpshots. The jumpshots will come as a result, but attacking the middle off the bounce should be the focus, IMHO.


PnR can be effective with the roster when used on limited occasions, but Roy needs to be the dump man, and Josh/Solo need to be the screeners. It should also take place at 15-17ft instead of out at the 3pt line. The pop needs to be for a midrange jumper, and when they roll it should be for more of a lob or atleast get them the ball in a position where they don't have to make a move with it.

Roy would be more effective in the opposite short corner so if his man slides over to help, he can get the ball dumped off. Defenses won't be able to help off him as much as they would be able to some of the other players.

SMosley21
01-11-2011, 03:26 PM
This is how the PnR offense should be ran...

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Our version looks nothing like that, therefore it is unsuccessful a majority of the time.

Hicks
01-11-2011, 03:34 PM
I agree the Pacers need a quick motion offense. But it should be structured around dribble penetration, and not jumpshots. The jumpshots will come as a result, but attacking the middle off the bounce should be the focus, IMHO.

But how many of our players can attack off the dribble? Darren, obviously, but then who? Can it work if it's just one guy?

Unclebuck
01-11-2011, 03:42 PM
One key to the Suns is having the three other players ouit beyond the three point line. (obviously that isn't the only key)

Some might call that stretching the floor, but since that is not a good term, I guess we'll just forget about

Since86
01-11-2011, 03:57 PM
But how many of our players can attack off the dribble? Darren, obviously, but then who? Can it work if it's just one guy?

The point of dribble pentration is to make the defense rotate. Danny has the ability to get to the rim off a straight drive. He struggles with driving when he's gonig against a set defender, but if he puts the ball on the floor and attacks without needing to perform a move, he's effective. Although he's not the greatest finisher in the world.

Rush has shown the ability to get to the rim off the dribble.
Mike can be very effective with his cuts, getting behind the defense when they start to help.

Focusing on dribble penetration doesn't mean 3 guys need to be able to handle the ball. You can get away with one, if they're really good at it, but a team can be just fine with two.

The key is the spacing of the other players, either in their cuts or their spot up positions.

I think it's the best type of offense for the squad. It allows players to play their style at the same time. Posey doesn't need to be able to handle the ball to be effective in a dribble penetration system. Players that have the ability to spot up, and only shoot the ball open up the driving lanes for players like Darren. Posey's man can't slide over and help, or Darren simply kicks it out.

And IMHO it's the simplest system you can run, because it allows players with different skill sets to play together.

It would require Roy, and Tyler if he's going to be getting the ball on the post, to make their moves rather quickly. Something that Roy is obviously struggling with.

90'sNBARocked
01-11-2011, 03:59 PM
But how many of our players can attack off the dribble? Darren, obviously, but then who? Can it work if it's just one guy?

Painful to say this but
TJ Ford, and possibly (though unknown as of now) Lance

Since86
01-11-2011, 04:00 PM
One key to the Suns is having the three other players ouit beyond the three point line. (obviously that isn't the only key)

Some might call that stretching the floor, but since that is not a good term, I guess we'll just forget about

No, you're right. It is stretching the floor. But the PnR makes the defense collapse which frees up the shooters.

In Jim's system, the defense doesn't have to collapse. The Pacers don't focus on attack the middle, and if they're not doing it, then the defense doesn't need to respect it.

I think I can speak for most of us when I say that I'm not against stretching the floor with 3pt shooting. I'm against how Jim does it. 3pt shooting can't be your go-to possession. That's why the Pacers struggle closing out games. Because they're centered around getting jumpshots.

Scot Pollard
01-11-2011, 04:34 PM
This is how the PnR offense should be ran...

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hPSpvdpnxUw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;hd=1&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;col or2=0x9461ca"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hPSpvdpnxUw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;hd=1&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;col or2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Our version looks nothing like that, therefore it is unsuccessful a majority of the time.

with the right coach

roy and dc would make a great PnR type and it would help this team win

but jim is lazy as hell and doesnt care

just give the ball to james posey at PF to take a 3 pointer

Hicks
01-11-2011, 05:44 PM
The point of dribble pentration is to make the defense rotate. Danny has the ability to get to the rim off a straight drive. He struggles with driving when he's gonig against a set defender, but if he puts the ball on the floor and attacks without needing to perform a move, he's effective. Although he's not the greatest finisher in the world.

Rush has shown the ability to get to the rim off the dribble.
Mike can be very effective with his cuts, getting behind the defense when they start to help.

Focusing on dribble penetration doesn't mean 3 guys need to be able to handle the ball. You can get away with one, if they're really good at it, but a team can be just fine with two.

The key is the spacing of the other players, either in their cuts or their spot up positions.

I think it's the best type of offense for the squad. It allows players to play their style at the same time. Posey doesn't need to be able to handle the ball to be effective in a dribble penetration system. Players that have the ability to spot up, and only shoot the ball open up the driving lanes for players like Darren. Posey's man can't slide over and help, or Darren simply kicks it out.

And IMHO it's the simplest system you can run, because it allows players with different skill sets to play together.

It would require Roy, and Tyler if he's going to be getting the ball on the post, to make their moves rather quickly. Something that Roy is obviously struggling with.

Can you run me through this? What would be your #1 play for each of our starters in the kind of offense you're describing? Let's assume we're starting DC, Mike, Danny, Tyler, and Roy. What are all 5 doing in each play?

spazzxb
01-11-2011, 05:56 PM
Anyone else notice how often DC ignores Roys picks. Ignore may be the wrong word but quite often DC attempts to make his move in the opposite direction of the pick roy is trying set up. I am not sure how often this happens, but have noticed it.

oxxo
01-11-2011, 06:09 PM
Our PnR/PnP suck hard. The picks suck. The way DC uses them suck. The other guys on the court suck (get in the way). It's a very ugly thing to watch.

Is it because they aren't set plays? Who knows. All I know is that when we do run it, it looks horrible.

jcouts
01-11-2011, 06:53 PM
Personally, I'd like to see us run the PnP with Darren and Danny. Boston has seen quite a bit of success running the PnP with Rondo and Pierce over the last few years. Danny's shot seems to me to be the most accurate when he's fundamentally squared up for a catch and shoot. It could work. I would at least be curious to see how it worked a few possessions per game with those two involved.

Since86
01-12-2011, 01:36 PM
Can you run me through this? What would be your #1 play for each of our starters in the kind of offense you're describing? Let's assume we're starting DC, Mike, Danny, Tyler, and Roy. What are all 5 doing in each play?

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/DribbleDriveMotionOffense.html

There are some good diagrams. But changes would need to be made.

Diagram 1 is the simplest. O5 would really be Granger, O3 would be Tyler, and O4 would be Roy.

Roy would need to be a little further out into the short corner, and Tyler would be coming more towards the elbow, but mainly off of the 3pt line. Posey on the other hand, would be following the line up.

But the rotations are simple to get, because really you're just refilling spots.

You need someone in the strong corner, weakside short corner, weakside corner (who will slide up to the wing), weakside wing (who will slide up top), and your ball handler on top getting into the middle.

I thought the offense greatly improved last night, and the reason for it IMHO, was that DC had the ball in his hands a lot more. He wasn't just merely finding the open man, he was getting the ball into the middle and causing them to collapse.

The offense ran last night was a lot better than it has been, and really was pretty close to what I was talking about here. Just a few tweaks.


I don't think they should run it exclusively, but it should be used along with the PnR and post plays trying to get Roy going.

owl
01-12-2011, 01:48 PM
We're running the PnR with the wrong player setting the pick. Roy isn't quick enough, nor does he have a consistent enough spot up 15-18 footer to be the guy setting the pick. We need to be running that play with Darren handling the ball and someone with a consistent jumper who is also athletic enough to roll to the basket quickly. The closest thing we have to that right now would be Tyler or Josh (although Josh's jumper isn't consistent at all).

This is exactly what happened last night with Collison and it worked well. It also worked well
with Jeff who picks and rolls quickly.

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 05:34 PM
The Offense looked better because Danny, Dunleavy, and Rush were on the floor together, alot. Danny and Dunleavy both played so many minutes because when they left the game our lead went away with them. Not discrediting DC but the big reason for the assist jump last night is that he had better tools around him to work with.

SMosley21
01-12-2011, 05:45 PM
The Offense looked better because Danny, Dunleavy, and Rush were on the floor together, alot. Danny and Dunleavy both played so many minutes because when they left the game our lead went away with them. Not discrediting DC but the big reason for the assist jump last night is that he had better tools around him to work with.

Could have also been the fact that he played almost 37 minutes and TJ Ford only played 11.

Last night was only the 2nd game all season that DC played at least 35 minutes. I don't think it's a coincidence that we won both of those games.

In those 2 games, DC averaged

19.5 points
9 assists
3 rebounds
2.5 steals
2.5 turnovers
62% FG
100 % FT

daschysta
01-12-2011, 06:20 PM
Could have also been the fact that he played almost 37 minutes and TJ Ford only played 11.

Last night was only the 2nd game all season that DC played at least 35 minutes. I don't think it's a coincidence that we won both of those games.

In those 2 games, DC averaged

19.5 points
9 assists
3 rebounds
2.5 steals
2.5 turnovers
62% FG
100 % FT

To be fair it makes sense that the games he gets extended minutes in are the games he is playing well in. Though some games like ny where he sat for extended periods despite tearing it up are ridiculous.

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 06:39 PM
His defense has been improving, so as long as he keeps the turnovers down I am happy with him getting the majority of minutes at pg.

Could have also been the fact that he played almost 37 minutes and TJ Ford only played 11.

Last night was only the 2nd game all season that DC played at least 35 minutes. I don't think it's a coincidence that we won both of those games.

In those 2 games, DC averaged

19.5 points
9 assists
3 rebounds
2.5 steals
2.5 turnovers
62% FG
100 % FT

Trophy
01-12-2011, 07:06 PM
His defense has been improving, so as long as he keeps the turnovers down I am happy with him getting the majority of minutes at pg.

He should be getting the majority of minutes at PG and he has.

BlueNGold
01-12-2011, 07:14 PM
The offense looked better because players who can execute it got a lot of minutes. Yes, that means Dun, Granger, Collison and Rush. Along with that, Foster, even without offensive skills executes it better than any of the other bigs. Whether it's experience, reaction time, whatever...he remains a good player if healthy.

Trophy
01-12-2011, 07:16 PM
I also noticed that DC has been guiding the offense more and is becoming more of a leading PG when the offense slows down and he's bringing the ball up.

flox
01-12-2011, 07:20 PM
edit: disregard forgot which year this was.

edit 2: Yes, I wish we ran a lot more dribble drive motion. It's one of my favorite offenses to watch. I'm a big fan of 4 out.

McKeyFan
01-12-2011, 08:04 PM
I'm a big fan of 4 out.
What color are your sideburns?

spazzxb
01-12-2011, 09:04 PM
He should be getting the majority of minutes at PG and he has. I should have said large majority like 35-40 minutes.