PDA

View Full Version : What does this statement from Dunleavy mean?



Peck
01-10-2011, 07:20 PM
twitter

@JeffRabjohns Mike Dunleavy: “Quite frankly, some guys just don’t feel like we have this thing figured out, especially offensively.”

Trophy
01-10-2011, 07:23 PM
He's probably just as frustrated as we all are.

This team has the capability to be a lot better, but they just aren't.

SMosley21
01-10-2011, 07:23 PM
I think it means that they haven't figured out what offensive strategy they're supposed to carry out because there is no true definition to it and there is so much change from game to game.

hoops_guy
01-10-2011, 07:27 PM
Our offense consists of constantly putting the ball in Roy and Danny's hands who usually shoot around 40% from the field. The ball should be in mostly Darren's hands and everyone getting a share from there.

Our offense sucks because our two best players aren't getting the job done. However, I think a huge part of this mess is actually Dunleavy himself. He's horrible on the road and he doesn't bring anything special into the starting lineup. Personally, I'd start George even though it's premature (and I'm biased).. But starting Rush or even Dahntay Jones would be fine.

We could actually use Dahntay's aggression right now even though he thinks he's the best player in the world. Having Hans starting helped us a lot during the San Antonio game and the aggression is needed.

pwee31
01-10-2011, 07:29 PM
It's not just Dunleavy, it's Granger as well

http://twitter.com/JeffRabjohns


Granger on #Pacers quick motion offense: "We really have to have an understanding of what's going on, and I don't think we have that yet."Which this is all in context to

http://twitter.com/JeffRabjohns


#Pacers had a long practice today in Philly. Spent the entire time working on offense.


Pacers, as a whole, have to get quick passing game down. It's all about making right reads, passes. Right now, not happening.

Peck
01-10-2011, 07:29 PM
Then Granger say's this


@JeffRabjohns Granger on #Pacers quick motion offense: "We really have to have an understanding of what's going on, and I don't think we have that yet."

Trophy
01-10-2011, 07:31 PM
Enough with the talk, let's see it.

McKeyFan
01-10-2011, 07:32 PM
Sounds like Obie is telling them the reason they aren't scoring well is because they aren't "getting it."

So it's not the it. It's the players.

gummy
01-10-2011, 07:40 PM
He and Dun (especially Dun) seem to me to be diplomatically saying that they don't understand what the hell they are supposed to be doing in JOB's offensive system (pun intended) and it isn't working.

But I'm totally fed up with JOB, so that could be confirmation bias speaking. It's possible they think the system is fine but there are players who don't understand it and that's screwing things up.

All I know is, we've heard a lot of talk over the years about how players don't understand the offense or defense - from the players and from JOB. Read and react offense is difficult. At what point do the TPTB say, "OK, no matter what the reasons this isn't working and hasn't consistently worked on either side of the ball for the past several years now. So we need to try a different (more traditional NBA) system."? I sure hope it's sometime before the next season begins.

CableKC
01-10-2011, 07:42 PM
Could someone that knows explain to me if the offense that we are running now is different then what we have been running over the last 2 seasons?

If it's not...then I can understand why everyone is not on the same page as JO'B.

But if it essentially is....then I am hoping that the ones that don't get it are DC, McBob, Hansbrough and Posey. Everyone else ( Dunleavy, BRush, Granger, Hibbert and TJ ) has been here for the last 2 seasons....I'd hope that they understand what's going on by now.

1984
01-10-2011, 07:45 PM
Sounds like Obie is telling them the reason they aren't scoring well is because they aren't "getting it."

So it's not the it. It's the players.

"If at first you don't succeed..."

"...Blame everyone around you."

Rather than accepting the reality that this offensive system does not function; O'Brien would rather blame the players. Don't misunderstand these statements: they are passive aggressive. Mike, Jr. and Danny don't want to engage a mutany, however they are making it known that there is a problem in the locker room.

It's your move, Larry.

Shade
01-10-2011, 07:47 PM
The Jim O'Brien Offense: So advanced, he's the only one who understands it.

1984
01-10-2011, 07:54 PM
The reason Jim O'Brien is not a successful coach is communication.

Think about this:

[1] Why do we (including the media) have to interpret O'Brien's alleged, "coach speak?" Could it be possible that the man is not utilizing a linguistic tool, but is instead limited by his inability to clearly and concisely communicate a problem? [2] Why do we often debate, "the system." It seems to me that no one really knows what, "it" is - including the players. [3] Why does it seem that O'Brien says one thing while his coaching staff sometimes says another?

O'Brien may be an intelligent man - I have no question. However, I believe he is limited in his ability to communicate. I suppose that is what separates so many great minds. What good is knowledge if you cannot delineate it to another person?

ksuttonjr76
01-10-2011, 08:09 PM
Could someone that knows explain to me if the offense that we are running now is different then what we have been running over the last 2 seasons?

If it's not...then I can understand why everyone is not on the same page as JO'B.

But if it essentially is....then I am hoping that the ones that don't get it are DC, McBob, Hansbrough and Posey. Everyone else ( Dunleavy, BRush, Granger, Hibbert and TJ ) has been here for the last 2 seasons....I'd hope that they understand what's going on by now.

That's more my concern. If it takes multiple years to learn an offense, then maybe it's time to change the offense being taught.

speakout4
01-10-2011, 08:11 PM
The Jim O'Brien Offense: So advanced, he's the only one who understands it.
Simplify. Less is more.

kester99
01-10-2011, 08:19 PM
Our starting 5-man unit stats are better with Dunleavy on the floor than they are with either Rush or Jones. Just saying. http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND2.HTM

We haven't seen enough games with Tyler added to the starters to have any useful 5-man stats.


But...back to the quotes...I hope that when Dunleavy and Danny say 'we' don't fully get it yet, they're referring mostly to the newer players as part of the 'we,' rather than themselves.

BlueNGold
01-10-2011, 08:40 PM
Dunleavy is a perfect fit for a read and react system. It requires superior passing, cutting and perimeter shooting on offense.

The problem is, Hibbert is a poor fit because he doesn't move well...and when he does he gets off balance. Athleticism is important for playing in this system because there is supposed to be constant movement. He is simply never going to play that well in this system.

Also, while Granger is a great shooter, he isn't naturally gifted in the passing department...and he's simply not naturally inclined to move without the ball. He's somewhat mechanical and this offense is best suited for smooth flowing play.

It's no wonder Roy and Danny are having tough years.

hoops_guy
01-10-2011, 08:46 PM
Our starting 5-man unit stats are better with Dunleavy on the floor than they are with either Rush or Jones. Just saying. http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND2.HTM

We haven't seen enough games with Tyler added to the starters to have any useful 5-man stats.
]

Yeah, I know and understand those stats and I like Mike as a player- probably more than most people on here do. But we desperately need transition buckets, easy buckets, and we need to get to the free throw line (which Rush admittedly obviously doesn't bring), and perhaps George and Jones could fill that gap. The offense stalls a lot with Dun and Granger on the court because they can't create for themselves.

As long as Mike gets his 25 minutes, no matter where it is, we'll be fine. We also need to decrease Danny's minutes obviously to prevent injury... but that is another story.

Yeah agreed but he brings that intensity that has been lacking.

Roaming Gnome
01-10-2011, 08:59 PM
Are these warning shots over the bow to Players versus coach?

Bball
01-10-2011, 09:05 PM
Are these warning shots over the bow to Players versus coach?

I hope so... The players can only be expected to deal with Captain Contradiction so much. As much as I'm a 'get in line with the coach' kind of guy, it's clear to me we're not just treading water, we're going backwards with O'Brien. We're 2 years past his expiration date.

Team and fan mutiny... It's the natural progression when dealing with a bad coach/wrong fit/walking contradiction this long.

rexnom
01-10-2011, 09:10 PM
I read these quotes as two team leaders calling out their teammates, not their coach or the coach's system.

If Kobe was saying "we just aren't getting it," he'd obviously be referring to his teammates' inability to run the triangle, not his own inability to "get it."

1984
01-10-2011, 09:14 PM
Of couse Kobe has proven he has an understanding of the triangle. This is different since Mike, Jr. and Danny clearly have no understanding of what this offense is or how it functions.

Eleazar
01-10-2011, 09:31 PM
Ok lets break these down.

@JeffRabjohns Mike Dunleavy: “Quite frankly, some guys just don’t feel like we have this thing figured out, especially offensively.”

"some guys"
this obviously means he is talking about others.

"just don't feel like we have this thing figured out"
This could be talking about many things like the offense, the coach, or something else.

"especially offense"
By singling out offense, with the word "especially" in front of it, that means there is more than just offense that the players are having trouble with. What that is I don't know, but as a human being who has played organized sports in the past I would imagine that the rotations and uncertainty are included.

Granger on #Pacers quick motion offense: "We really have to have an understanding of what's going on, and I don't think we have that yet."

This one is pretty straight forward, nothing that can be misinterpreted. The only thing that is vague are the details about what they don't understand. This could be a hint that the players are confused by what their coach is do, or it could just simply be about the offense. Even if it is just about the offense my experience would say that they are also confused by the coach, but this sentence in no way implies that.

Hoop
01-10-2011, 09:36 PM
We all know Mike is a fairly smart player, coaches son and all, even if he's limited athletically. Danny was offered a scholarship at Yale, so I'm going to assume he's a fairly intelligent guy. Both Mike and Danny have complained about not understanding what they are suppose to do before this current season.

If neither of these guys, going on 3 years, know what the hell is going on with the offensive system, the system IS the problem.

Bball
01-10-2011, 09:40 PM
We all know Mike is a fairly smart player, coaches son and all, even if he's limited athletically. Danny was offered a scholarship at Yale, so I'm going to assume he's a fairly intelligent guy. Both Mike and Danny have complained about not understanding what they are suppose to do before this current season.

If neither of these guys, going on 3 years, know what the hell is going on with the offensive system, the system IS the problem.

....going on 4 years....

Justin Tyme
01-10-2011, 09:52 PM
When the Pacers get 10 games under .500 and are in 9-10 place in the East, maybe Herb Simon will finally decide to give some of that leadership he talked about 3 years ago.

1984
01-10-2011, 09:54 PM
Dunleavy's comments are probably innocent.

Is it bad that I want them to be mutinous?

BlueNGold
01-10-2011, 09:57 PM
Jim is wasting his time.

He's forcing a system that is a poor fit for his players, especially his center.

It is and will continue to be a losing proposition.

Bball
01-10-2011, 10:02 PM
Jim is wasting his time.

He's forcing a system that is a poor fit for his players, especially his center.

It is and will continue to be a losing proposition.

Wrong...

He is wasting the time of the players, fans, and franchise!

beast23
01-10-2011, 10:37 PM
Our offense sucks because our two best players aren't getting the job done.I thought about this and kept coming back to this. I've concluded that I don't think it is accurate and is probably stated exactly opposite of what it should be in cause-effect.

Our two best players aren't getting it done because the offensive system sucks.

I honestly believe they would be performing better in another offensive system. And, if for no other reason than all players would be on the same page in a system that is much less "intuitive".

d_c
01-10-2011, 10:40 PM
twitter

@JeffRabjohns Mike Dunleavy: “Quite frankly, some guys just don’t feel like we have this thing figured out, especially offensively.”

Dunleavy has spent a career making those kinds of statements about his teammates.

beast23
01-10-2011, 10:42 PM
Dunleavy has spent a career making those kinds of statements about his teammates.Quotes please.

Mackey_Rose
01-10-2011, 10:45 PM
Dunleavy has spent a career making those kinds of statements about his teammates.

He does seem to have a self-accountability issue that can only be trumped by the man who calls him "Michael."

d_c
01-10-2011, 10:49 PM
Quotes please.

You can look up the ones he made as a Pacer. I'm too lazy to find 5 year old quotes he made from when he played at GS.

NapTonius Monk
01-10-2011, 11:27 PM
Captain Contradictionhttp://thegarbagechute.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/PALADINO_CC.jpg

Anyone wanna photoshop JOB's head to be the new Captain Contradiction?

imawhat
01-10-2011, 11:37 PM
How do Dunleavy and Granger know that some guys feel this way? What's their connection to the team...who's their source?

Anthem
01-10-2011, 11:42 PM
What I don't understand is why the offense is so much worse than it was when Obie got here. Remember when Dun and Danny were both close to being 20ppg guys?

CableKC
01-10-2011, 11:44 PM
Can someone tell me if the offense that we are running now any different then the offense that we have been running for the last 2 seasons?

If it is different.....are we talking about significantly different?

imawhat
01-10-2011, 11:46 PM
It's worse because they used to run a lot of curls for Dunleavy and a lot of backdoor stuff, which they don't do anymore (though the curls for Dun started creeping back into offense about ten games ago and have since disappeared). Danny had better shot selection and Rasho was a steady passer from the elbow. Other than that, same crappy offense.

Foul on Smits
01-11-2011, 12:08 AM
I cant tell you what offensive system they are running. However, I can tell you that since November 20th, Danny Granger has been shooting 39% from the field. Now I hate JOB and want him gone as much as everybody else, but 39% shooting for close to two months, from our best player, is absolutely horrible. And will always equal losses. Lots of losses. The Pacers are 9-15 in that stretch. Probably not a coincidence.

aceace
01-11-2011, 12:21 AM
I've pretty much quit watching games and quit following except for on here and checking scores on Yahoo. When JOB is gone I will start watching again, going to games etc. The guys clueless and why he's still coaching I will never know. The Pacers got a big gift from the city in paying their bills time to pay the city back and get rid of JOB

Heisenberg
01-11-2011, 05:05 AM
We all know Mike is a fairly smart player, coaches son and all, even if he's limited athletically. Danny was offered a scholarship at Yale, so I'm going to assume he's a fairly intelligent guy. Both Mike and Danny have complained about not understanding what they are suppose to do before this current season.

If neither of these guys, going on 3 years, know what the hell is going on with the offensive system, the system IS the problem.
The Ivy League doesn't offer athletic scholarships, jus'sayin.

DaveP63
01-11-2011, 07:59 AM
An obvious change would be to simplify what you are trying to do. That is the normal way to handle something that your personnel don't get. Then, when the light bulb comes on, you can always ramp it up. However, that isn't happening, is it?

Square pegs in round holes, over reliance on certain players, unwillingness to change to adapt to situations with personnel or in game, bizzare lineups and substitution patterns. These are the reasons why we need to start looking elsewhere.

Unclebuck
01-11-2011, 08:09 AM
I know this article has its own thread, but this thread is discussing these quotes also

Here is more context to those quotes.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110111/SPORTS04/101110321/At-14-20-Pacers-playoff-team-name-only?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports

PHILADELPHIA -- At this point, tonight's game between the Indiana Pacers and Philadelphia 76ers is between two playoff teams.

The 14-20 Pacers are seventh in the Eastern Conference standings and the 15-22 Sixers are eighth, the final playoff spot.

In part, that's an indictment on the East, which had six teams at least six games above .500 entering Monday night and a bottom nine all at least six games below .500.

It also means, despite nearly a month of struggles, the Pacers are playing games that could be critical at the end of the season.

"I guess it's a good-news bad-news thing, but we're really not happy with where we're at," Pacers guard Mike Dunleavy said. "You almost don't even look at the standings. The most important thing for us is to start playing better.

"The winning, the seeding, the playoffs will take care of themselves. Right now, it doesn't really matter that we're in the seven spot because if we keep playing the way we do, we won't be for long."

The Pacers have gone 5-13 their past 18 games, sliding into a pack of six teams vying for the East's final two playoff spots.

Indiana, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Toronto and Detroit entered Monday within three games of each other.

Pacers coach Jim O'Brien isn't pleased with the team's position.

"We're a little angry to be 14-20," he said. "We should be a better team and that's my job; 14-20 is not very good. It doesn't matter whether we're seventh in the East or 10th. We are not playing the type of basketball that allows us to be anything other than 14-20."

The Pacers have been good offensively and poor defensively the past few years, but the opposite has been true recently. The offense needs fixing.

The Pacers are third in the NBA in field-goal defense (43 percent) this season, but they are averaging just 92 points over the past 10 games, fifth worst in the NBA in that span.

The players have become irritated with the situation.

"Guys are not happy. There's some frustration, and there's also some looking for answers," Dunleavy said. "Quite frankly, some guys just don't feel like we have this thing figured out, especially on offense."

So what isn't working?

"A lot of it is rhythm and timing and making smart basketball plays," Dunleavy said. "We have a pretty simple offense. It's based on reads, hitting the open guy. We struggle with that. Until that changes, we're probably going to struggle on offense."

The Pacers spent more than two hours on the practice court Monday, the entire time dedicated to offense.

The issue isn't simply missing shots. The Pacers haven't been getting quick shots and, as a result, have fewer possessions and more shots taken as the shot clock runs down.

Danny Granger, Indiana's leading scorer, said players have worried about the offense for several weeks.

"Teams are scouting us, taking away a lot of our set plays," he said. "We like to do our quick motion, which is a little bit unpredictable and easier to score out of, but with that offense, we really have to have an understanding of what's going on, and I don't think we have that yet."

If they don't get it soon, seventh in the East may begin slipping away.

pwee31
01-11-2011, 09:11 AM
I don't get the Dunleavy self accountability issues? The guy has always made team first comments and always uses we need to get better, we're not playing well. I don't have a problem with that.

I personally don't get the quick motion offense, seems like a lot of guys stand around behind the 3 point line. The only movement I really see is from Dunleavy unless a set play is call, than you'll see picks for the player the play is called for, but still not a lot of movement.

The same goes for ball movement too. Here lately the Pacers have become a beat a man off the dribble and shoot team. We do NOT have the players for this. Both PGs have been guilty of this too much, as well as Rush and Granger. The team has started to try a force the action which leads to blown layups or force layups, charges and turnovers, and it takes other players out of the mix.

The Pacers best ball is when the tempo is up and players are moving the ball and making the extra pass. Guys can shoot the ball, they just need to get each other open shots. When that happens you get in a rhythm as a team and the offense flows.

If the Pacers can get back to ball movement, cutting, and not forcing the action, they can be successful again.

I do feel McRoberts should be getting time for his playmaking ability, and yes I agree with those who think he and Hansbrough should be on the floor together at times. And those 2 should NEVER be on the inactive list if healthy.

Mackey_Rose
01-11-2011, 09:17 AM
I don't get the Dunleavy self accountability issues?

One of the things that has always bothered me about Dunleavy, is that often he will get beat defensively and then blame his teammates for not covering for him. He has done it since he's been here. I didn't watch him at Golden State, but maybe d_c can either confirm or deny if that was the case there as well.

In my opinion, it isn't about what he says in the media, it is about how he acts on the court.

Unclebuck
01-11-2011, 09:24 AM
One of the things that has always bothered me about Dunleavy, is that often he will get beat defensively and then blame his teammates for not covering for him. He has done it since he's been here.

Isn't that his teammates job. His teammates are supposed to cover for him and everyone else on the team. Mike does a good job covering for his teammates

Mike gets mad when his teammates don't play team defense when they don't know where they are supposed to be and same thing on offense.

If I were a player I could live with a teammate not being physically capable of doing something, but I could not put up with a teammate not knowing what they are doing, or making mental mistakes or being lazy and not putting forth the effort.

xIndyFan
01-11-2011, 10:04 AM
reading the twitter quotes and UB's Indystar article, it seems pretty obvious that some players are still having trouble understanding where to go in the quick offense. the dunleavy quotes are clear that some [other] players don't know what is going on offensively. this is consistent with the comments from JOB explaining why tyler was not playing early in the year. someone correct me if i am wrong, but didn't JOB say tyler was not playing because he did not know the offense?

watch tyler on the court. every game, including SAS, he's had somebody wave him to the correct spot, or call him over to explain something, or get caught clogging up the offensive flow. it is not hard to add 2 + 2 and get 4 in this case. now there is nothing wrong with a young player having problems with the offense, but unless that player is really playing well, vets will not like it at all.

wasn't darren also complaining about the offense early in the year? didn't he have troubles playing within the offense also? another young player, new system, maybe he has problems with it.

sounds like mike and danny want the new guys to get up to speed and quit fouling up things. their comments are not unexpected from vets who know how to play and what is needed to win at the NBA level. they want the younger players to be able to play the team game instead of just their individual game.

one last thought. there seems a hint of veteran frustration that young players that don't know what to do are playing more than they deserve. the veteran's assumtion that guys are playing that don't deserve to be playing the minutes they have because they haven't done the work needed to be prepared. the worst thing that can happen to a team is giving playing time to guys who don't deserve it. if this is the case, it is the worst case and look for the pacers to implode completely.

NuffSaid
01-11-2011, 10:16 AM
He and Dun (especially Dun) seem to me to be diplomatically saying that they don't understand what the hell they are supposed to be doing in JOB's offensive system (pun intended) and it isn't working.

But I'm totally fed up with JOB, so that could be confirmation bias speaking. It's possible they think the system is fine but there are players who don't understand it and that's screwing things up.

All I know is, we've heard a lot of talk over the years about how players don't understand the offense or defense - from the players and from JOB. Read and react offense is difficult. At what point do the TPTB say, "OK, no matter what the reasons this isn't working and hasn't consistently worked on either side of the ball for the past several years now. So we need to try a different (more traditional NBA) system."? I sure hope it's sometime before the next season begins.
A "read and react" offense takes "creativity" out of your offense somewhat. I basically means that "if the defense does this, you do that." I means you have to have experienced players on the floor - veterans mostly. Problem is, we don't have many veterans on this team who can do that. So, basically for this team a "read and react" offense leaves out the ability for any one player to improvise. That job, IMO, should go to either BRush, Collison or TJ Ford because they are the only players other than Granger who can create for themselves and get to the rim even when the defense is pressuring.

NuffSaid
01-11-2011, 10:46 AM
reading the twitter quotes and UB's Indystar article, it seems pretty obvious that some players are still having trouble understanding where to go in the quick offense. the dunleavy quotes are clear that some [other] players don't know what is going on offensively. this is consistent with the comments from JOB explaining why tyler was not playing early in the year. someone correct me if i am wrong, but didn't JOB say tyler was not playing because he did not know the offense?

watch tyler on the court. every game, including SAS, he's had somebody wave him to the correct spot, or call him over to explain something, or get caught clogging up the offensive flow. it is not hard to add 2 + 2 and get 4 in this case. now there is nothing wrong with a young player having problems with the offense, but unless that player is really playing well, vets will not like it at all.

wasn't darren also complaining about the offense early in the year? didn't he have troubles playing within the offense also? another young player, new system, maybe he has problems with it.

sounds like mike and danny want the new guys to get up to speed and quit fouling up things. their comments are not unexpected from vets who know how to play and what is needed to win at the NBA level. they want the younger players to be able to play the team game instead of just their individual game.

one last thought. there seems a hint of veteran frustration that young players that don't know what to do are playing more than they deserve. the veteran's assumtion that guys are playing that don't deserve to be playing the minutes they have because they haven't done the work needed to be prepared. the worst thing that can happen to a team is giving playing time to guys who don't deserve it. if this is the case, it is the worst case and look for the pacers to implode completely.
This is why I've consistently argued for putting the best starting five on the floor at their relative positions and not just plug players into a "system".

Dunleavy, Granger, TJ Ford, AJ Price and Foster have all played for JOB and have a very good understanding of JOB's system since they've played for him the last few years. So, if Collison says he's strugging understanding aspects of JOB's system, you either scale it down for him or you put someone else in as your starting PG who understand the system better. IMO, Collison shouldn't have been made the starting PG so quickly, not until he had a full grasp of the way JOB wanted him to run the offense. AJ Price should have gotten playing time not necessarily over Collison, but certainly ahead of TJ Ford or at least Collison and Price could have split minutes.

Same could be said at Center and PF. Fine, Hibbert and Jmac are the starters at Center and PF, respectively. But why go with Solo and Posey as their backups when neither have shown they can be real forces down low or even decent contributors at their relative positions? Granted, Solo's game has improved, but he still needs work. And although Foster's not going to get you 10+ ppg, you know he understands JOB's offense and defensive schemes. So, why play Solo so much and keep a guy like Foster glued to the bench? I have the same kind of problems w/Posey in that he has rarely, if ever, played at PF. Why force the issue? Just to have a stretch-forward on the floor? You got rid of Troy Murphy because you we going to go more with an inside game down low in the post. Why go away from that in an effort force someone into either being a power post-player when he's not (Posey) or a perimeter threat when he's not (Jmac)? Let these players do what they do best. Don't try forcing them into doing things they're not comfortable doing.

I also think JOB hasn't taken advantage of pairing those players who perform well together often enough. Foster and Dunleavy work well together, but JOB rarely puts Foster on the floor. This is why I believe both of these players really should be your backups at Center and SG respectively. Let them work those plays they've nearly perfected - the given-N-go. Doc Rivers said something I thought was brillian last time the Pacers played the Celtics. He said of his use of Maquis Daniels, "we ran the same play about 3 or 4 times and they (Pacers) couldn't stop us." We'll, I've seen Foster and Dunleavy run the give-N-go so well, yet JOB doesn't let them run it nearly as much as I think he should because they work it very well.

Something else the pre-game Pacers/76ers IndyStar article points out: Pacers really do lack a passing game from the low-post. I blame Hibbert here. He continues to force his way through double-teams instead of passing out of them. He also takes way too long to set up his offense. He needs to decide much sooner what he wants to do with the ball and when he does decide to take the shot he needs to do so from a more controlled, more balanced position. He's rushing his shots and taking most of them way off balance. He needs to correct that.

Granger's starting to get his confidence back, but he took too long to decide to lay off the jump shots and start taking his game inside more. I'm a firm believing that if one aspect of your game isn't working, the only way to correct that (other than practise) is to switch to other parts of your game to compensate. If your perimeter shot isn't falling, step inside the 3-pt line. If your jump shot isn't falling, take your game to the rim. And if you're gone completely cold, the best thing you can do is go to the hot hand down the stretch instead of trying to come off as the hero. To that, it's up to your coach to make the distinction and not be afraid to tell his players who that hot hand is. More important, a mature player even if he's our franchise player will recognize that it's not personal; it's your coaching giving your team the best shot to win in going w/the hot hand. And if you're an unselfish player, you'll allow your coach to make that call. But if you're a coach worth your salt, you'll have the courage to make that admission. I often question whether or not coach O'Brien has that fortitude.

pacergod2
01-11-2011, 11:28 AM
UB, I agree with your argument about knowing what you are doing when you are on the court, but the exact contradiction that could be made is that people who aren't capable of getting the offense should be allowed to get just as frustrated when player's who aren't capable of guarding their own man keep needing their asses saved.

pacergod2
01-11-2011, 11:45 AM
Nice post Nuff. I think in general you make some very good points.

In regards to Hibbert, if he is struggling scoring from the post, he needs to concentrate on passing out of the post nearly every time to get the defense to not double him. As soon as he gets it, he should be passing the ball. That way, when they quit doubling as hard, he has some time to put a move on someone. He is not doing a good job of "mixing it up" offensively and has lost his confidence. He needs a big man to show him. To give him the reps to understand. We don't have those guys on our coaching staff. Jeff Foster can't teach the kid how to score, but can help him learn to pass. Bill Laimbeer for our next coach PLEASE.

Also, I will take the Lakers for example when utilizing their plays. Kobe and Pau run a read and react high post set, very similar to ours. The big difference is that you KNOW Kobe and Pau have got their read and react down. We don't have players who do the read and react well other than guys who are fairly one-dimensional. Brandon and Mike are both fairly one-dimensional and when utilizing the high post, they become easy to defend when they take a pull up jumper every time. Brandon is much better about taking it to the hole, but he has not been doing that as much. Danny has gotten into the same habits. They aren't versatile out of the high post. That also goes for our bigs. When has McRoberts ever looked to score out of a high post set either through a mid range jumper or rolling to the basket? I don't think the coaching staff wants him to do those things. Our team lacks the versatility that we showed offensively early in the season, because the opposing coaches say, just play them for the jump shot out of a high post set, and immediately their defense is effective.

The coach says, double Hibbert hard when they actually do get the ball to him. It is predictable because they do this 5 times per game. Double hard, because he struggles with quick moves and he hasn't shown comfort in passing out of the double team. If we got him the ball more often in the low post, I think he would get more comfortable, but that is something the coaching staff isn't willing to struggle through.

Our point guards do a poor job in read and react offense, unless it is looking for their own shot. And then it is more of an isolation play anyway.

I think the absolute biggest thing we need offensively, is for our PFs to look to score out of the high post set. They don't do it. The coaching staff wishes they could, but they don't mandate to them the need to look to score. They put Posey in the game because it pulls the defense away from the action in the high post when using Hibbert. It helps a little, but we need more people around the rim. Not away from the rim. If we gained more versatility in the high post from our PFs, we wouldn't be in such an offensive slump. The coaching staff needs to recognize this and take their lumps in getting our young PFs looks from within the key. We are struggling anyway, fix the damn problem. Collison and Hansborough and McRoberts need to run high post set offense in practice every day even if you aren't doing practices. They need the repition. Make Hibbert work out of the low post while replicating the hard double. We have enough shooters and the Lord knows how much you prioritize outside shooting. This gives us better looks from deep. Make it happen.

Since86
01-11-2011, 12:44 PM
Does it really matter if Dun and Granger were talking about other players?

The message is still the same, the players don't understand the offense. It doesn't matter if Granger understands it and Darren doesn't. There is still a problem.

Scot Pollard
01-11-2011, 12:54 PM
darren deserves to be set free and run this team like a pg should

thats how a system works well

jim doesnt even have one and doesnt even care about positions

thats why he plays the ****in backup ford so much and limits the star darren

pacer4ever
01-11-2011, 12:56 PM
darren deserves to be set free and run this team like a pg should

thats how a system works well

jim doesnt even have one and doesnt even care about positions

thats why he plays the ****in backup ford so much and limits the star darren

Phil Jackson's system doesnt let the pg do his thing. Never has never will. I would say it has worked pretty well for him.

Scot Pollard
01-11-2011, 12:57 PM
Phil Jackson's system doesnt let the pg do his thing. Never has never will. I would say it has worked pretty well for him.

well darren isnt playing like he was brought in

phil jackson lets derek fisher slow down the offense

pacer4ever
01-11-2011, 01:02 PM
well darren isnt playing like he was brought in

phil jackson lets derek fisher slow down the offense

And Ron Harper and about 10 others that played in His Triangle offense. Which doesnt rely on a pg never has never will.

Unclebuck
01-11-2011, 01:03 PM
darren deserves to be set free and run this team like a pg should

thats how a system works well

jim doesnt even have one and doesnt even care about positions

thats why he plays the ****in backup ford so much and limits the star darren

Do you think Pacers should run more pick and rolls?

Since86
01-11-2011, 01:04 PM
Phil Jackson's system doesnt let the pg do his thing. Never has never will. I would say it has worked pretty well for him.

Jim O'Brien isn't Phil Jackson, and it's folly to hold them to the same standards.

And besides, not every system that uses their PG in the same manner gets the same results.

Jim isn't running the triangle, so there is no comparison between the two systems.

Scot Pollard
01-11-2011, 03:41 PM
Do you think Pacers should run more pick and rolls?

hell yes

thats what any pg of dc's caliber need

guys like derrick rose, rajon rondo, deron williams, chris paul all have that aid from their big men

heck dc was able to score and pass when he was with the hornets

jim likes racing and wants dc and his pg to race up the court to score

thats being a lazy coach and it ruins the team

NuffSaid
01-11-2011, 04:01 PM
darren deserves to be set free and run this team like a pg should

thats how a system works well

jim doesnt even have one and doesnt even care about positions

thats why he plays the ****in backup ford so much and limits the star darren
This only works IF you have a PG who plays more like a Scoring Guard or the reverse. Look at the Heat, for example. DWade is a Scoring Guard who plays more like a PG, but he has perfected his game so well that in certain situations you think he's a PG because he has such good ball control and he reads the defense exceptionally well. The Pacers don't have that type of player currently. They could if they develop either BRush or AJ Price more and give them the latitude to be creative off the dribble and play more to their strengths. Of course, this would mean JOB would have to relinguish more control, but that ain't happening even if we had Jason Kidd or Steve Nash out their.

The player I'd like to see out there is Lance Stephenson. I'd really like to see if he has the tools this team needs in a power player, a pure shooter, a creator, a pure shooter. If he has all those talents, he could be our Kobe Bryant. Time will tell...