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View Full Version : Looking beyond this season and the future Core?



CableKC
12-01-2010, 09:15 PM
If you were to step beyond this season and look at the likely core of Players that will remain on the roster and try to envision that future core as a Playoff Caliber Team that is built to get beyond the 1st round of the Playoffs ( a mindset that I think we should be taking after this season IF we return to the Playoffs this season ), what role do you think that each Player would best fit?

We know who will be our future Starting PG, SF and Center:

PG - Collison
SF - Granger
C - Hibbert

However, looking at the remaining core of Players that will likely be on the roster ( assuming that we resign McBob :pray: and let the Expiring Contracts go ):

AJ / BRush / PG / Posey / Hans / McBob / Inferno / Lance

I think that we have a very solid depth at all positions......but not any real Starters to fill the 2 remaining spots at the Starting SG and PF spots.

AJ - AJ's best suited to be DCs backup at the PG spot. A no-brainer here.

BRush - IMHO, BRush maybe a Starter on a "Bad" to "Playoff Bubble" Team ( basically where we are now )....but on a Playoff Caliber Team....I think that BRush is best suited to be the 1st GF off the bench. To me, on a Playoff Caliber Team....he's not Starting material but a much better option as the 6th Man in our rotation on a really good Team.

Posey - As a smart Veteran GF that can provide some good leadership on the floor ( that won't likely be going anywhere due to the $$ owed to him in the 2011-2012 season ), I think that he'd best fill whatever remaining GF minutes are left behind BRush and next to PG in the GF rotation.

PG - For now; I only see PG playing behind Granger, whatever Starting SG that I think we should get ( assuming that BRush isn't that guy....which I do not ) and BRush in the GF rotation while fighting for whatever leftover minutes that are left for Posey and PG. I'd anticipate AT WORST that next season, PG will be playing next to Posey in the GF rotation ( meaning either of them...but not both....should get 10-15 and AT BEST playing ahead of Posey and next to BRush in the GF rotation. I really hope that he does blossom as a Starter under a new Coach or role...but I think that it will be later rather then sooner ( I hope he proves me wrong in this aspect ).

McBob - On a "Playoff Bubble Team", McBob is a Starter...on a Playoff Caliber Team...he has obvious flaws that will limit his effectiveness. Assuming that we are able to resign him ( which I hope we do ) and seeing how well he has played so far....I really think that he should be the 1st Big Man off the bench to fill the role that Foster should have filled when we were actually a good Team. Offensively, he's still a liability...when he's not doing some Alley-Oop or dunking on someone....but on a Playoff Caliber Team...I think that he'd fill the roll as a 1st Big Man off the bench more then adequately and can ( if injury occurs ) step in to be a good "stop-gap" Starter at the PF or Center spot. To me, McBob has an edge over Hansbrough as the 1st Big Man off the bench.

Hansbrough - Just like BRush, I think that he'd be much better suited to be a rotational Big rather then a Starter. There are some flaws to his game ( as Seth continually likes to point out ), but he's clearly ( at worst ) good enough to be a rotational Player that should get a minimal # of consistent Minutes in the rotation. The question is how well he progresses and how well he does in the next season. For now, I look at Hansbrough ( at best ) next to McBob as the 1st Big Man off the bench but more then likely play behind McBob in the Big Man PF/C rotation.

Inferno / Lance - For now, both of them are inconsequential and in suits.

The reason I bring this is up is because when I started look at the future core how well our Team would fit the mold of being a "Playoff Team and beyond" Team....it gave me an idea about what positions of need we'd have to target to get this Team to the next level.

Thoughts anyone?

What role and position do you think our future likely core of Players will fill IF we wanted to start making a major push for the Playoffs and to try to get past the 1st round?

Right now, McBob and BRush are our Starters...but I feel that if we are to get over the next "hump", they are much better suited to be 6th/7th rotational Players as the "1st GF" or "1st Big Man" off the bench. To me, if we get a taste of the Playoffs...unless PG, Lance and Hansbrough take significant steps forward and they "finally get it"...I think that Bird and Company will be looking more to in "Win now" while looking less on the Younger Players to "get it". This would likely translate into looking to sign either a Starting quality PF and/or a Starting quality SG to fill out the roster. This ( of course ) dove-tails into the whole "Make a run for Iggy or not" thread.

BringJackBack
12-01-2010, 09:24 PM
Thank you. I agree with everything you said 100%

In my opinion we also need a tall, rebounding, and shotblocking third big. Josh can do that, but he may be our starter next year. So we need a tall third big who brings energy and who can dunk in traffic.

Rush is perfect as our 3rd wing so we need an upgrade as our starting wing. Same w/ George as our backup small forward. We can have a beastly rotation of defenders there. James Posey plays spot minutes some games.

NapTonius Monk
12-01-2010, 09:36 PM
I think it should be mentioned that Solo is playing super solid of late. He's filling that role playing 3rd big spot pretty nicely.

BringJackBack
12-01-2010, 09:46 PM
I think it should be mentioned that Solo is playing super solid of late. He's filling that role playing 3rd big spot pretty nicely.

I agree. However, we still need someone that has a consistent positive impact in games off the bench like Tony or Foster in the past for us.

Don't get me wrong though. Solo has been playing great for his standards. But we can still get a player who is more dynamic and who can be trusted in posting up, getting offensive rebounds, and blocking shots.

beast23
12-01-2010, 10:49 PM
Quality starters currently on team:

PG - Collison
SF - Granger
C - Hibbert

Subs:

PF - McRoberts, Hansbough, Posey (minimal minutes; next season only)
PG - Price
SG - Rush, DJones (next season only)
SF - Rush, Posey (next season only), George
C - NONE

By no means to we have solid/quality depth... at least not for a team capable of making a deep run into the playoffs. I don't think we should mistake the fact that we have better depth at this time than we have had for the last 3-4 years for quality depth that better performing playoff teams have and need.

Price - Questionable backup. This is a drop a deuce or get off the pot season for AJ. He must evolve into a solid backup. We will not have Ford next season and it must be determined whether AJ can adequately provide quality backup minutes that will be required. Otherwise, we will be looking looking for a backup PG next summer, with AJ either gone or relegated to 3rd string.

BRush - Solid backup. I think Rush would make an excellent backup SG for probably any team in the league. Therefore, we should count ourselves lucky to haver Rush available to come off the bench in the coming seasons. He can also handle backup SF minutes depending on the match up and what is needed. But even with a top-notch SG starting in front of him, we should still expect to use him at least 25 minutes per game.

Posey - Veteran/knowledgeable backup. I believe Posey will be used next year much like he is being used this season. As a player that contirbutes to defense and as a spot shooter. He will see minutes at SF and also at PF, depending on the match up. I think this will be true regardless of a possibe coaching change for next season.

George - Unknown backup ability. At this time, it cannot be predicted whether George will see any court time at all. This year and what he can accomplish in training next summer will dictate how George will be used next season. He somehow needs to find the light switch. Otherwise, Posey will see the majority of backup minutes next season rather than George. So based on what I've seen so far, I think AT BEST, George will get 15 minutes a game and be ahead of Posey in the depth chart. AT WORST, next season will be a repeat of what we have seen so far of him this season.

McRoberts - Energetic backup. Every team needs a player like McRoberts in its front court off the bench. Goes after every loose ball; seems to have a knack for keeping rebounds alive. A decent physical presence.

Hansbrough - Similar to McRoberts in what he brings, except that he has an offensive game. Does not have good enough defensive skills to meet our needs at PF, but is a decent big off the bench.

I could see the Pacers attempting to re-sign Dunleavy for a lot less money than he is making now if his contract cannot be used in a sign-and-trade to acquire another player. Even with better starters, he can make a great contribution at both wing positions.

So, we still have a lot of needs to evolve into a very good playoff team.

PF - Need a quality starter.
SG - Need a quality starter.
C - Need a quality backup.

Young
12-02-2010, 12:01 AM
I have to agree with much of what has been said already.

Many of the current Pacers can be a part of a championship team. They have the makings of a strong bench. I think the Pacers need a couple of things in their starting lineup.

- A 20 PPG scorer, either SG or PF
- Elite defensive PF

The Pacers do not have a Dwight Howard of Kobe Bryant. They cannot follow the mode the Magic and Lakers have used to build championship caliber teams. They must follow the Celtic's mode. To do that they need to be a top 3 defensive team and they need another 20 PPG scorer.

Danny and Roy are 20 PPG scorers. If Roy isn't he is very close and I don't think anyone would argue he can be a top 3 scorer on a championship team.

It is likely the scoring will have to come from the SG spot. All around PFs are very difficult to get. I think that Paul George could develop into that guy. Some say he can't play SG but what he really lacks are ballhandling skills and he can develop that.

Jon Theodore
12-02-2010, 12:07 AM
I think it should be mentioned that Solo is playing super solid of late. He's filling that role playing 3rd big spot pretty nicely.

Where are all the posters who were saying JOB was an idiot for playing Solo??? Wait...what was that you said???

JOB might have seen some potential in Solo and thought with some minutes he might figure it out....NOOOO not an established NBA coach...guy is just clueless! We all know that.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 02:32 PM
Thank you. I agree with everything you said 100%

In my opinion we also need a tall, rebounding, and shotblocking third big. Josh can do that, but he may be our starter next year. So we need a tall third big who brings energy and who can dunk in traffic.

Rush is perfect as our 3rd wing so we need an upgrade as our starting wing. Same w/ George as our backup small forward. We can have a beastly rotation of defenders there. James Posey plays spot minutes some games.
This is what I'm trying to gauge from all of you.....do we have all of our necessary Starters NOW to make a real run at returning to our prominence years ago where we were considered a perennial "2nd round Playoff or beyond" Playoff Team starting in the next 2 years?

My impresson is that we don't. BRush and McBob are the perfect examples of Players that are Starters on a Bad or "Playoff Bubble" Team ( exactly what they are now ). However, on a really good "Playoff or Beyond" Team....they wouldn't be Starters but Backup Players at their respective positions.

The best way that I can put it is to imagine a 2nd unit that comprised AJ/BRush/Posey(or PG)/Hans/McBob. To me....that is solid Depth that is needed to get us to the next level.

My thought is that if you look at it that way.....then 2 primary objectives that I think that Bird should really look at in the offseason is to get a Starting PF ( duh ) AND a high quality Starting SG....where one ( but not both ) could be top-tier Players at their respective positions.

We certainly have the $$$ to go after them in the offseason and I think that Bird is ready to make a huge move to get us to the next level as opposed to slowly wait for PG and Lance to develop.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 02:54 PM
I think it should be mentioned that Solo is playing super solid of late. He's filling that role playing 3rd big spot pretty nicely.
I still would put McBob ahead of Solo in the rotation. I know that he's been doing much better as of late....but if I were to look at what he does and where he would fit on a "Playoff or beyond" Team....then IMHO, he'd be considered the 5th Big Man at the end of the bench.....specifically a Big Man that would only get time if Hibbert, our Starting PF, McBob and Hansbrough gets injured. At best....next season....if Solo were on the roster and we were to get a Starting PF....my Big Man PF/C rotation consists of (1) Hibbert, (2) whatever Starting PF that we get, (3) McBob and Hansbrough and Solo fighting for the leftover minutes. Given my preference to develop Hansbrough...I'd easily prefer to put Hansbrough ahead of Solo or whoever we sign as a Big Man to warm the bench.

Where we are right now.....Solo gets minutes because we do not have a true Starting PF ( despite McBob doing his best impression of one ). Looking at Teams that are built to not only make it to the Playoffs but compete in the Playoffs that could make it to the 2nd round and beyond ( such as the Spurs or the Jazz ) and a Player like Solo would be warming the bench as a Cheerleader.

Again....don't look at where the Team is now ( a "Playoff Bubble" or "A Likely 1st round Playoff Exit" Team ), looking at the Team this way and I think that Players like Solo are regular rotational Players and McBob and BRush are Starters. Over the last 3 seasons...we were at the "Let's just make it to the Playoffs" level....to me, given our performance as of late...I feel that we will likely get there by this season.

I wanted to take a look at what we'd need to do to get to that "Next Level"...specifically what it would take to get us back to where we were before as a perennial Playoff bound Team that can make it to the 2nd round..if not the ECF.

MLB007
12-02-2010, 03:07 PM
These aren't established veterans with known quantities (and ceilings).
BRush and McBob are YOUNG players that might be a whole lot better in another year. Brandon is showing assertiveness and maturity and McBob is playing for the first time.
Both can be a lot better in the future, as can Tyler and AJ.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 03:08 PM
I agree. However, we still need someone that has a consistent positive impact in games off the bench like Tony or Foster in the past for us.

Don't get me wrong though. Solo has been playing great for his standards. But we can still get a player who is more dynamic and who can be trusted in posting up, getting offensive rebounds, and blocking shots.
To me, I think that McBob would do a good job of filling the hole that Foster will likely vacate in our PF/C rotation. He's a high-energy guy that can rebound, block shots, provide solid defense, athleticsm, act as a disruptor on the defensive end, and provide some solid Big-Man passing for 20 minutes a game.

MLB007
12-02-2010, 03:09 PM
I still would put McBob ahead of Solo in the rotation. I know that he's been doing much better as of late....but if I were to look at what he does and where he would fit on a "Playoff or beyond" Team....then IMHO, he'd be considered the 5th Big Man at the end of the bench.....specifically a Big Man that would only get time if Hibbert, our Starting PF, McBob and Hansbrough gets injured. At best....next season....if Solo were on the roster and we were to get a Starting PF....my Big Man PF/C rotation consists of (1) Hibbert, (2) whatever Starting PF that we get, (3) McBob and Hansbrough and Solo fighting for the leftover minutes. Given my preference to develop Hansbrough...I'd easily prefer to put Hansbrough ahead of Solo or whoever we sign as a Big Man to warm the bench.

Where we are right now.....Solo gets minutes because we do not have a true Starting PF ( despite McBob doing his best impression of one ). Looking at Teams that are built to not only make it to the Playoffs but compete in the Playoffs that could make it to the 2nd round and beyond ( such as the Spurs or the Jazz ) and a Player like Solo would be warming the bench as a Cheerleader.

Again....don't look at where the Team is now ( a "Playoff Bubble" or "A Likely 1st round Playoff Exit" Team ), looking at the Team this way and I think that Players like Solo are regular rotational Players and McBob and BRush are Starters. Over the last 3 seasons...we were at the "Let's just make it to the Playoffs" level....to me, given our performance as of late...I feel that we will likely get there by this season.

I wanted to take a look at what we'd need to do to get to that "Next Level"...specifically what it would take to get us back to where we were before as a perennial Playoff bound Team that can make it to the 2nd round..if not the ECF.

Solo blocked or altered 3 shots in about 2 minutes last game. He is starting to become a factor and looking MUCH more confident out there.
He seems to be much more of a "center like" guy than McBob and Tyler.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 03:13 PM
These aren't established veterans with known quantities (and ceilings).
BRush and McBob are YOUNG players that might be a whole lot better in another year. Brandon is showing assertiveness and maturity and McBob is playing for the first time.
Both can be a lot better in the future, as can Tyler and AJ.
I do not doubt that they will improve.....but I do not see any of them as the type of high-quality Starters that we will need if we are to compete with the 2nd-tier Playoff Teams.

I'm not trying to be-little what they are doing now or what they can do.....but using the ceiling of Granger and Hibbert as models.....I just don't see either McBob or BRush as having as high of a ceiling for them as many of you do.

This doesn't mean that they can't contribute...I just see them as better contributors with a more focused role as a Backup ( playing 24-28 mpg ) as opposed to a Starter.

graphic-er
12-02-2010, 03:18 PM
Am I the only one who think back up PG is a position of need as well? I mean AJ is good and all but he isn't much bigger than DC. This past week has shown that we need some size at the PG spot. I don't think Lance is the answer.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 03:19 PM
Solo blocked or altered 3 shots in about 2 minutes last game. He is starting to become a factor and looking MUCH more confident out there.
He seems to be much more of a "center like" guy than McBob and Tyler.
Based off of what we know....if McBob or Solo were on a Team like the Spurs or Jazz....which one would likely get regular rotational minutes?

With admitted preference for McBob...my best guess is that Solo wouldn't crack the rotation and get regular minutes on a 2nd Tier Team on a regular basis.

I'll default to my initial answer....I think that McBob is clearly ahead of Solo as a rotational Big Man Player. At best....if it comes to Solo and Hansbrough as to who will get the minutes next.....I can see arguments that either is better then the other given the situation. But at this point...we're talking about a 4th/5th Big Man in the rotation. If given the choice...I'd rather have Hansbrough be the 4th Big Man..which would leave whoever is left as the 5th Big Man getting garbage minutes.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 03:24 PM
Am I the only one who think back up PG is a position of need as well? I mean AJ is good and all but he isn't much bigger than DC. This past week has shown that we need some size at the PG spot. I don't think Lance is the answer.
Maybe because of homerism when it comes to AJ...I'd prefer to see what AJ can do as the backup PG. But I agree about the size concern....we would have to look for a veteran Backup 2nd/3rd PG regardless.

I haven't focused as much on the 2nd and 3rd Backup PG spots only because I think that we already have AJ as a backup...but we'd still have to get a 3rd PG in the rotation...preferably a veteran Backup PG.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 03:31 PM
Where are all the posters who were saying JOB was an idiot for playing Solo??? Wait...what was that you said???

JOB might have seen some potential in Solo and thought with some minutes he might figure it out....NOOOO not an established NBA coach...guy is just clueless! We all know that.
Honestly, I think that Foster is more injured then is generally known and that the only reason that he is not playing ( despite suiting up ) is because he's currently used as a "Break in case of extreme emergency" Big Man off the bench.

Couple that with the thought that I think that he's being rested so that we can use him more in the 2nd half of the season when we are making a serious push for the Playoffs......if he was completely healthy now....I think that Foster would be playing now and Solo and Hansbrough wouldn't be playing as much as they are now.

Sookie
12-02-2010, 03:32 PM
PG is not an issue. Honestly, DC and AJ both have the potential to be good starters, we need to not get vet pg to take both of their minutes. We'll need a third pg (Unless we're still stuck on Stephenson at the PG position) But let those two play a season together, please. Deron Williams and Russel Westbrook are going to score on any PG we put out there, but at leas Darren and AJ have firing power back.


I think the biggest issues are starting PF, and backup Center.

I've thrown this around a bit, but I wouldn't mind getting a starting PF, having McBob play backup C and Tyler play backup PF. I think that would be a fun unit to bring into the game. And we'd only need to aquire one player.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 03:41 PM
I could see the Pacers attempting to re-sign Dunleavy for a lot less money than he is making now if his contract cannot be used in a sign-and-trade to acquire another player. Even with better starters, he can make a great contribution at both wing positions.
Although Dunleavy and Posey brings slightly different skills to the table...I think that Posey can fill the role that Dunleavy would likely fill next season. I will miss all the "Little" things that Dunleavy does.....but there wouldn't be enough minutes behind the needed "Starting SG" that both of us think we need, Granger and BRush to warrant the need for BOTH Dunleavy and Posey to get regular minutes.

If we didn't have Posey...then I'd agree that Dunleavy can step back and play behind BRush in the rotation for 10-15 mpgs....but with Posey likely being here next season ( I doubt that he will be moved )...Posey can be that veteran presense that we need in the GF rotation and having a Player like Dunleavy would be a luxury.


So, we still have a lot of needs to evolve into a very good playoff team.

PF - Need a quality starter.
SG - Need a quality starter.
C - Need a quality backup.
Except for the need for a quality Backup Center ( cuz I think that McBob can fill that role as the 1st Big Man off the Bench ), I can't disagree here. But as you and others have mentioned....I guess we will have to see whether AJ is up to the task of being DCs backup at the PG spot. Regardless....we'd have to get a backup PG anyway....whether it turns out to be a better backup PG then AJ as the 2nd PG in the rotation or one to backup AJ himself as the 3rd PG in the rotation.

90'sNBARocked
12-02-2010, 04:02 PM
Why should Dahanty be "incidential"

I really believe he deserves minutes. Other than that good post

CableKC
12-02-2010, 04:09 PM
Why should Dahanty be "incidential"

I really believe he deserves minutes. Other than that good post
After Granger, ( hopefully ) a new Starting SG, BRush and Posey....we have PG, Lance and Inferno in the GF rotation.

If you had to choose between giving minutes to any of those Players....where would Inferno fit among those 3?

My guess is that the answer would be PG, Lance and Inferno ( in that order ).

I agree with you on one thing though....with a different Coach...I'd think that Inferno would better fit and fill that "perimeter defender" rotational Player that I think that Bird signed him up for...but my guess is that IF we make a trade for a Long-Term Contract to fill either the Starting SG or SF positions...that Inferno would be included...purely for Salary / Financial reasons.

MagicRat
12-02-2010, 04:13 PM
I was expecting any discussion about The Core to include Peck and DaSmash......:sadbanana

90'sNBARocked
12-02-2010, 04:14 PM
I agree with you on one thing though....with a different Coach...I'd think that Inferno would better fit and fill that "perimeter defender" rotational Player that I think that Bird signed him up for...but my guess is that IF we make a trade for a Long-Term Contract to fill either the Starting SG or SF positions...that Inferno would be included...purely for Salary / Financial reasons.

Thats the point I was looking for . I dont know what DJ ahas done to not get any minutes. I do believe PG is potentially a better player but if it was in the playoffs for example and we are playing say Miami, you could put him on Wade/LBJ

Like last night, and I admitt it might not have made a difference, but why not at least try Dahanty on Derron Williams?

Williams was kllling DC/Rush so why not try Dahanty?

CableKC
12-02-2010, 04:22 PM
Many of the current Pacers can be a part of a championship team. They have the makings of a strong bench. I think the Pacers need a couple of things in their starting lineup.

- A 20 PPG scorer, either SG or PF
- Elite defensive PF

The Pacers do not have a Dwight Howard of Kobe Bryant. They cannot follow the mode the Magic and Lakers have used to build championship caliber teams. They must follow the Celtic's mode. To do that they need to be a top 3 defensive team and they need another 20 PPG scorer.

Danny and Roy are 20 PPG scorers. If Roy isn't he is very close and I don't think anyone would argue he can be a top 3 scorer on a championship team.

It is likely the scoring will have to come from the SG spot. All around PFs are very difficult to get. I think that Paul George could develop into that guy. Some say he can't play SG but what he really lacks are ballhandling skills and he can develop that.
I agree with the 1st part that I think that I think that the easier of the 2 Starting positions of need to fill through Trade or FA is the Starting SG spot. IMHO....I think that getting a consistent 2nd/3rd Scoring option at the Starting SG spot that can efficiently and effectively score will do wonders to this Team while taking a huge load off of Granger and Hibbert's shoulders.

Unfortunately, I do not think that BRush can be that guy that will ALWAYS put up 15+ PPG....which is what we need from a Starter as a 2nd/3rd scorer n this Team. On top of that...unless PG takes a huge step forward in the next season...I do not think that he is the answer there. I can hope that PG can fill that role....I'm just not optimistic that he'll get there in the next season or two. Of course, I will easily change my mind if PG actually gets consistent minutes to actually prove what he's capable of. Hopefully this will come next season when he has a longer leash to show what he can do.

BillS
12-02-2010, 04:26 PM
I was expecting any discussion about The Core to include Peck and DaSmash......:sadbanana

:rotflmao:

CableKC
12-02-2010, 04:29 PM
Thats the point I was looking for . I dont know what DJ ahas done to not get any minutes. I do believe PG is potentially a better player but if it was in the playoffs for example and we are playing say Miami, you could put him on Wade/LBJ

Like last night, and I admitt it might not have made a difference, but why not at least try Dahanty on Derron Williams?

Williams was kllling DC/Rush so why not try Dahanty?
I can't disagree with you there....it couldn't hurt. As mentioned in my response to you...I think that Inferno is a Player that Bird brought in to as a long-term "piece to the puzzle" while ignoring the fact that JO'B values Players more that can contribute ( as opposed to can't contribute ) on the offensive end ( at least in most cases ) as opposed to on the defensive end.

I'd still like to see what a different Coach can do with Inferno as a specific role-Player that can be brought in to do what you suggest....but that leads to the whole "Should JO'B get extended or not" discussion.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 04:31 PM
I was expecting any discussion about The Core to include Peck and DaSmash......:sadbanana
Is this some inside joke that I'm missing here?

I hope it's not about that horrible "The Core" movie with Hillary Swank.

BillS
12-02-2010, 04:56 PM
Is this some inside joke that I'm missing here?

Yep.


I hope it's not about that horrible "The Core" movie with Hillary Swank.

Nope.

:whistle:

Eleazar
12-02-2010, 06:39 PM
Starters:

PG: Collison
SG: Rush
SF: Granger
PF: McRoberts
C: Hibbert

Bench:
Price
George
Hansbrough

The way I see it is that we have a good enough starting 5 that if we found the right bench pieces we would be competing for a championship this year.

Collison, Rush, Granger, and Hibbert are all quality starters. McRoberts might not be ideal, but he would be adequate with the right bench.

There are three pieces that we need on the bench:

Back-up PG
Wing Scorer
Back-up C who can score

If we had that we would be able to go 8 deep with minimal drop off from the starters to the bench.

Currently we have that back-up PG in Price, no need to go looking for another.

George could potentially be that back-up wing scorer, but there is no guarantee.

Hansbrough can't play C, and struggles to play within an offense not set around him.

If George develops properly we could have two of those three pieces already. If we were able to find a quality back-up C we would compete for a championship, but probably fall short similar to late 90's Pacers.

The problem I see is that we would only be able to go 8 deep, and in order to win a championship I believe you need to be able to go 10 deep. This is why we need to find a better starting PF. With McRoberts coming off the bench with a C that can score, the bench would be very similar to what we have with our starters right now in the post. The final player I would want would be a player like Posey. A savvy vet that might be past prime, but is solid and smart enough to take advantage of the other teams mistakes.


Now that is all easier said than done, but I do believe that this team is just a quality bench away from competing for a championship. If George develops like we hope we are only one piece away from having that bench.

CableKC
12-02-2010, 11:15 PM
The problem I see is that we would only be able to go 8 deep, and in order to win a championship I believe you need to be able to go 10 deep. This is why we need to find a better starting PF. With McRoberts coming off the bench with a C that can score, the bench would be very similar to what we have with our starters right now in the post. The final player I would want would be a player like Posey. A savvy vet that might be past prime, but is solid and smart enough to take advantage of the other teams mistakes.

Now that is all easier said than done, but I do believe that this team is just a quality bench away from competing for a championship. If George develops like we hope we are only one piece away from having that bench.
Actually, I think the reverse. With AJ/BRush/Posey/Hans/McBob I think that we have a quality Bench. IMHO...we should spend the FA $$$ on the best SG or PF that we can get while getting whatever else we can at getting a solid Player at the remaining Starting spot.

As you said....we need to be 10 Players deep to be a Contender....IMHO we alreaday have 8 of those in place...we just need 2 Starting quality Players at the SG and PF spot.

Sookie
12-02-2010, 11:56 PM
Actually, I think the reverse. With AJ/BRush/Posey/Hans/McBob I think that we have a quality Bench. IMHO...we should spend the FA $$$ on the best SG or PF that we can get while getting whatever else we can at getting a solid Player at the remaining Starting spot.

As you said....we need to be 10 Players deep to be a Contender....IMHO we alreaday have 8 of those in place...we just need 2 Starting quality Players at the SG and PF spot.

I agree, that's a fantastic bench unit.

Starting PF and Starting SG would be all that's needed. (coughIggycough)

idioteque
12-03-2010, 12:01 AM
Will the Pacers be able to retain Collison and Hibbert AND sign another free agent?

cdash
12-03-2010, 12:02 AM
Will the Pacers be able to retain Collison and Hibbert AND sign another free agent?

Absolutely.

BringJackBack
12-03-2010, 12:27 AM
Yeah, technically we could sign damn near two max free agents AND keep all of our players. Thats what the Magic and Lakers do.

We'd be about 50 million over the tax though lol.

beast23
12-03-2010, 01:00 AM
beast23: So, we still have a lot of needs to evolve into a very good playoff team.
PF - Need a quality starter.
SG - Need a quality starter.
C - Need a quality backup.


CableKC:
Except for the need for a quality Backup Center ( cuz I think that McBob can fill that role as the 1st Big Man off the Bench ), I can't disagree here. But as you and others have mentioned....I guess we will have to see whether AJ is up to the task of being DCs backup at the PG spot. Regardless....we'd have to get a backup PG anyway....whether it turns out to be a better backup PG then AJ as the 2nd PG in the rotation or one to backup AJ himself as the 3rd PG in the rotation.


CableKC:
With AJ/BRush/Posey/Hans/McBob I think that we have a quality Bench. IMHO...we should spend the FA $$$ on the best SG or PF that we can get while getting whatever else we can at getting a solid Player at the remaining Starting spot.

There are a couple of ways of looking at what will be required to be a perennial contender in the playoffs. In our "glory" years, we could look at the players coming off of our bench and recognized that they were good enough to start on other teams in the league. For example, Antonio and Jalen came off the bench, but easily could have started for half the teams in the league. Travis, despite his flaws, probably could have started for a handful of teams. We had a big that could play PF or C, a wing that could play SF or SG and a PG that were "that good".

That's what I'm looking for as our first options off the bench. So, to get us to that point, I really can't consider a bench of "AJ/BRush/Posey/Hans/McBob" to be a "quality bench".

The only player I could consider as "good enough" to be a quality first option off the bench would be Rush. And, if we were lucky enough to acquire a quality PF for next season that can score, defend and rebound, then I would consider Rush an adequate starter. He would not have to consistently score 15 ppg, he would just have to be a consistent defender, which he already is.

I really think that our first big off the bench needs to be the player that can definitely play both PF and C. He doesn't have to be a prolific scorer, but he does need to be able to defend both positions and rebound, with at least one offensive ability, whether it be hitting mid-range open shots or drawing fouls to get to the line or whatever. I don't think Josh or Tyler covers this need. They can both play PF, but I'm not secure at all in their abilities to defend the C.

As for acquiring new starters, I think that if we have any aspirations of returning to a perennial contender, it is imperative that we get a PF that can fully complement Hibbert. He must be a strong rebounder and he must be capable of sliding over to cover the post if Hibbert leaves the game due to foul trouble. With Granger, Hibbert and Collison in the lineup, this PF does NOT need to be a 20 ppg scorer. I think that the PF, as well as the starting SG can be 12-14 ppg scorers, with the capability of going for 20 points when one of Granger, Hibbert or Collison is off, unavailable or in foul trouble.

And this is really the reason why I believe Rush might make an adequate starter... because we don't need for him to be a high scorer... just one capable of scoring in an occassional time of need. You give me 18-20 points from each of Granger, Hibbert and Collison and 12-14 points from each of Rush and a new PF, then I think we will win a lot of games... as long as we get the players we need coming off the bench.

If Rush were the starter at SG, then I would be looking for a backup that can put up points. I wouldn't necessarily overlook a weaker defender, as long as he can score in bunches.

CableKC
12-03-2010, 03:14 AM
The only player I could consider as "good enough" to be a quality first option off the bench would be Rush. And, if we were lucky enough to acquire a quality PF for next season that can score, defend and rebound, then I would consider Rush an adequate starter. He would not have to consistently score 15 ppg, he would just have to be a consistent defender, which he already is.
On a Playoff Caliber Team....I don't want an "adequate" Starter at the SG spot...I want one that can push us to that next level...that can come in and consistently be an offensive threat that would make Teams pay for doubling Granger or Hibbert. BRush can sometimes do that...sometimes he can't. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we have enough FA $$$ to go after 2 quality Starters at the SG and PF spots....we should go after them to improve this Team.


I really think that our first big off the bench needs to be the player that can definitely play both PF and C. He doesn't have to be a prolific scorer, but he does need to be able to defend both positions and rebound, with at least one offensive ability, whether it be hitting mid-range open shots or drawing fouls to get to the line or whatever. I don't think Josh or Tyler covers this need. They can both play PF, but I'm not secure at all in their abilities to defend the C.

As for acquiring new starters, I think that if we have any aspirations of returning to a perennial contender, it is imperative that we get a PF that can fully complement Hibbert. He must be a strong rebounder and he must be capable of sliding over to cover the post if Hibbert leaves the game due to foul trouble. With Granger, Hibbert and Collison in the lineup, this PF does NOT need to be a 20 ppg scorer. I think that the PF, as well as the starting SG can be 12-14 ppg scorers, with the capability of going for 20 points when one of Granger, Hibbert or Collison is off, unavailable or in foul trouble.
The type of PF that you are looking for is going to be hard to find as a Starter and backup. There isn't one that would be available via Free Agency as a Starter. As for a Backup....same thing. I know that McBob's offense right now sucks....but there's nothing to indicate that he couldn't develop an offensive move as a backup Big Man.

My thought is that if there is $$$ to be spent....spend it to get a very good Starting SG that can be that 2nd scorer....while spending a little less $$$ to get a solid Starting Quality PF. As to who? I have no clue....but I think that it would be easier to find a Top Tier SG that would fit our need then it would be to find a Top Tier PF.

Dr. Awesome
12-03-2010, 03:20 AM
Cable, I really disagree with you on Rush. If you look around, so many Championship teams have had a guy exactly like Rush in the starting lineup. A great defender who can shoot 3's.

CableKC
12-03-2010, 04:20 AM
Cable, I really disagree with you on Rush. If you look around, so many Championship teams have had a guy exactly like Rush in the starting lineup. A great defender who can shoot 3's.
I envision BRush as the 6th Man and the 1st GF off the bench playing about 24 to 28 mpg. My hope is that we can get a very solid Starting SG that can complement both Granger and BRush on the offensive and defensive end....which is one of the reasons why I'd hope that if Iggy is available that we make a run for him.

Pacergeek
12-03-2010, 10:31 AM
I think that we are pretty solid at PG, C, and SF. I would prefer an upgrade at SG, preferibly a dead-eye 3 pt shooter. Somebody you don't want to leave open, and could get hot and make like 3 in a row.

For the PF, maybe just an enforcer type player. A Dale/Antonio davis 2.0.

Sookie
12-03-2010, 01:43 PM
Cable, I really disagree with you on Rush. If you look around, so many Championship teams have had a guy exactly like Rush in the starting lineup. A great defender who can shoot 3's.

I think, personally, if you want to win a championship, you either need three all star level players and good role players, or a superstar with a lot of support.

I think we have two right now with Hibbert and Danny.

I think we have the PG position solved with Collison and Price. I think they both could develope into being "good starter" (Which means we won't get to keep them both.) But regardless, it's young at that position, but it's solved. However, there's no "All Star" level player there.

That leaves the PF and the SG position. Brandon Rush could be a starter on a championship calibeer team, and I don't think Josh is. Which means, we only need to get one player, the PF..as an All Star level kind of player, and move Josh to backup Center, with Hans backing up the PF.

But, all star level PF's are rare, SG's are much easier to find, and Indiana isn't exactly the biggest market. I think it'd be easier to get an all star level SG, and a solid PF..have Rush be the sixth man, and allow PG to develope. And once again, move Josh to back up Roy, and Hans to backup the PF. (Obviously there's some versitility there..)

owl
12-03-2010, 02:24 PM
Nothing like a "Core" vs "Bore" war reference.

Almost fractured the forum permanently. ;-)

count55
12-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Absolutely.

Maybe

Hicks
12-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Nothing like a "Core" vs "Bore" war reference.

Almost fractured the forum permanently. ;-)

I've heard about it, but wasn't around for it. What was that all about? What makes a bore a bore? Boring posting? And the core was what, the most regular posters?

vnzla81
12-03-2010, 03:01 PM
I like Sookie's thinking here, here is my plan:

1st, Get Iguadola: Indiana sends Dunleavy+1st round pick+ Tyler

2nd, Get Varejao: Indiana sends TJ Ford + second round pick+ Lance

The team would look like this: Dc,Iguadola,Danny,Varejao and Hibbert.
Bench: Josh,DJ,Rush,Solo,AJ,Foster and Posey.

What do you guys think?

Larry Staverman
12-03-2010, 03:35 PM
This is why we need to find a better starting PF.

You may be a little quick with you evaluation!

McBob is 23, has played a total of 100 games with 20 starts for a total of about 1200 minutes.

Hans just turned 25, has played a total of 43 games with 1 start for a total of about 700 minutes.

Making a judgement about whether they can be starting PF's is only speculation at this point.

McBob has made huge improvement since he got here and Hans showed flashes last year but has struggled some since missing 9 mos of BB activity.

cdash
12-03-2010, 04:35 PM
Maybe

You really think they are going to get that much money?

Eleazar
12-03-2010, 05:00 PM
Actually, I think the reverse. With AJ/BRush/Posey/Hans/McBob I think that we have a quality Bench. IMHO...we should spend the FA $$$ on the best SG or PF that we can get while getting whatever else we can at getting a solid Player at the remaining Starting spot.

As you said....we need to be 10 Players deep to be a Contender....IMHO we alreaday have 8 of those in place...we just need 2 Starting quality Players at the SG and PF spot.

I disagree. While it does have talent and quality individual players, as a whole I don't see them working well together, or come in and have very little to no drop of from the starters.

Eleazar
12-03-2010, 05:05 PM
You may be a little quick with you evaluation!

McBob is 23, has played a total of 100 games with 20 starts for a total of about 1200 minutes.

Hans just turned 25, has played a total of 43 games with 1 start for a total of about 700 minutes.

Making a judgement about whether they can be starting PF's is only speculation at this point.

McBob has made huge improvement since he got here and Hans showed flashes last year but has struggled some since missing 9 mos of BB activity.

While yes they are both young I am looking at this from a very conservative view. It isn't that I don't think it is possible, only that as of right now and how they are playing right now this is what we need. I don't disagree with you that they can both develop into starters, but I'm looking at it as if they both develop to their middle potential instead of their ceiling.

MLB007
12-03-2010, 05:33 PM
PG is not an issue. Honestly, DC and AJ both have the potential to be good starters, we need to not get vet pg to take both of their minutes. We'll need a third pg (Unless we're still stuck on Stephenson at the PG position) But let those two play a season together, please. Deron Williams and Russel Westbrook are going to score on any PG we put out there, but at leas Darren and AJ have firing power back.


I think the biggest issues are starting PF, and backup Center.

I've thrown this around a bit, but I wouldn't mind getting a starting PF, having McBob play backup C and Tyler play backup PF. I think that would be a fun unit to bring into the game. And we'd only need to aquire one player.

+1

CableKC
12-03-2010, 05:52 PM
I disagree. While it does have talent and quality individual players, as a whole I don't see them working well together, or come in and have very little to no drop of from the starters.
Maybe I'm mis-reading what you're saying...but it's not like all 5 of our Starters are going to come in and all 5 of our Backup Players come in all at once. There would be a huge mix-and-match of Players where Players like BRush and McBob would be playing with some combination of our Starters for 24-28 mpg and then players like Posey, AJ and Hans would be playing with the Starters/Backups for 15+ mpg.

CableKC
12-03-2010, 05:56 PM
While yes they are both young I am looking at this from a very conservative view. It isn't that I don't think it is possible, only that as of right now and how they are playing right now this is what we need. I don't disagree with you that they can both develop into starters, but I'm looking at it as if they both develop to their middle potential instead of their ceiling.
The main reason why I started this thread is to look beyond the "here and now" and look at this Team as a "Playoff and beyond" Team. You're right...BRush and McBob are doing well as our Starters now...but we are built like a "Playoff Bubble" Team now. They are good and can reach a higher ceiling, but I feel that they wouldn't be Starting quality Players ( only cuz I don't think that they have that high of a ceiling ) on a "Playoff and Beyond" team...but backup 6th-8th Men on that type of TEam.

PaceBalls
12-03-2010, 06:18 PM
We definately need another smart big guy. He doesn't have to be the starter, but good enough to be one, yet not such a ego maniac he demands to be starting. I wouldn't mind getting someone like Big Baby, I like his game alot. I doubt Boston gives him up. But someone like that.

Or maybe something like getting Iggy and start Rush, Iggy and Danny as the 2 3 4. I could live with that and all of them are interchangeable really, anyone of them could play each of those positions. Then we have Hans and McRoberts manning the backup mins for PF/C.

Iggy is the only big name out there I am interested in. The dude is a monster on D and would put this team over the hump. We would make it work with putting our best players out there together, even if it meant one of the wings plays a bit at the 4. Just as long as that wing is one of the big wings, not Mike Dunleavy.

I'm not really sure, just musing about what I'd like to see, but I think we are getting close to a very competitive roster. One solid addition (and two subtractions TJ/Dun) is really all we need.

Larry Staverman
12-03-2010, 08:04 PM
Iggy is the only big name out there I am interested in. The dude is a monster on D and would put this team over the hump.

Iggy plays with an all star PF and and up and coming PG and has gotten Philly "over the hump" to a 5-13 record!

By the way he is owed $56.5 million over the next 4 years.

I'll stick with Rush.

xBulletproof
12-03-2010, 08:17 PM
Iggy plays with an all star PF and and up and coming PG and has gotten Philly "over the hump" to a 5-13 record!

Who's this All Star PF? Please don't say Elton Brand.

I guess the Celtics are running with 2 All Star's named O'Neal too.

owl
12-03-2010, 08:18 PM
I've heard about it, but wasn't around for it. What was that all about? What makes a bore a bore? Boring posting? And the core was what, the most regular posters?

My recollection is that of a tongue in cheek battle of posters who were the core or
mainstays of the forum and then someone starting a comical anti-core group called bore.
Someone with better memory than me can fill in the blanks.

count55
12-03-2010, 08:34 PM
You really think they are going to get that much money?

I think they'll get sizable amounts, but I don't know (a) where the post-CBA cap will be and (b) how tight the Pacers are going to be with money.

Eleazar
12-03-2010, 10:24 PM
The main reason why I started this thread is to look beyond the "here and now" and look at this Team as a "Playoff and beyond" Team. You're right...BRush and McBob are doing well as our Starters now...but we are built like a "Playoff Bubble" Team now. They are good and can reach a higher ceiling, but I feel that they wouldn't be Starting quality Players ( only cuz I don't think that they have that high of a ceiling ) on a "Playoff and Beyond" team...but backup 6th-8th Men on that type of TEam.

Yes, I realize that but we have no idea how good any of our players will be in 2 years. For all we know Stephenson could be the next MJ and Hibbert could be out of the league. So we can only base everything on what we have now. So I said what we need right now if we wanted to compete today, but that doesn't mean that those players aren't already on the team only that they are currently not playing those roles.

Yes, we are built like a playoff bubble team right now because we don't have a strong bench, not because we don't have a strong starting 5. If we didn't have a strong starting 5 we wouldn't be constantly competing and beating playoff and championship caliber teams. You can have a player like Rush or McRoberts as your starters if you have the right players on your bench. In fact I would say you would be a better team with those two players starting if you have the right players on the bench than all of these starting line-ups everyone is wanting. The reason is that they are glue guys. They won't stuff the stat sheet, but they do the other things that make your team better as a whole. While having a scorer would be nice at the SG position it doesn't mean we need a scorer to start in front of Rush. It just means you need a scorer who can replace Granger or Collison when one of them go to the bench. The same concept translates over to the C/PF positions.

We are in a good position with our current starting 5, especially considering all of them except for Granger could improve greatly over the next 2 to 3 seasons.

The bench on the other hand not so much. Our wing scorer off the bench is Dunleavy who is very one dimensional and most likely won't be here next season. While George could fill that role, possibly even replacing Rush or Granger, at this point we don't know. At PF Hansbrough looks like he will develop into a strong back-up PF, but there are some aspects of his game that he is having trouble changing that will hurt the team if he doesn't change them. The back-up C is obvious, but don't just assume McRoberts will bring what we need for a back-up C. McRoberts is a PF that can play C if necessary. Just like Granger is a SF who can play PF is necessary. That doesn't mean they should play those positions any more than 5 minutes a game.

I like our young players, but I'm not going to assume they will all be what we want them to be in 2 years. I judge how much a player will improve by how much I have seen them improve to this date. That is why I don't assume Hansbrough will be anything more than an average back-up PF that struggles to play within an offence, and I don't assume that McRoberts will ever be a serious scoring threat but he will do the little things that make the offense better as a whole. I have a hard time seeing either being anything more than improved versions of what they currently are. Rush on the other hand has shown that he is capable of improving both his defense and his scoring. He may never be the scorer that we want, but he will do everything else as well or better than whoever is behind him.


Wow this post got away from me.