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View Full Version : Don't blame Danny...



OakMoses
11-22-2010, 01:56 PM
for being the best player on this team, but not being one of the best players in the NBA.

It is not his fault that there is not a player on the roster who's better than him. It's not even Bird's fault. When have we had the opportunity to acquire a better player than Granger?

While we're at it, let's stop talking about his $60 million contract like it means he should be Kobe. Danny gets paid like a 2nd banana does on a really good team. How many 2nd bananas are consistently asked to win games for their team? He makes less than Rashard Lewis, Pau Gasol, Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, and Andrew Bynum to name a few. None of those guys are expected to carry their teams anywhere.

Also, let's throw out the concept of a "franchise" player. It's useless especially if you somehow create it with the ability to get your own shot during crunch time. I guess Jameer Nelson is Orlando's franchise player. If that's your criterion, I guess TJ Ford is ours. It's not like there's a guy on the roster who does a better job of getting their own shot against tough defense.

I'll say it again, don't blame Granger. I've never been a huge fan of his, but I like him as player. I like what I've seen this season more than I've ever liked what I've seen in the past. Over the past 3 games he's pretty much locked down 3 20+ ppg scorers: Joe Johnson, Eric Gordon, and Vince Carter. He's showing a commitment on the defensive end. He's not breaking the offense and looking for his own shot, and he's passing more effectively than at any other point in his career.

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 01:59 PM
I love Granger, love what he brings to the table

His only weakness in my opinion, is his inability to break people down off the dribble. Granger can sometimes get his own shot off, but when we are down by a point with the clock down to 5 seconds, we have really no one who can take his man off the dribble , strong to the hole. Danny will usually get that last shot opportunity, but its a jab step followed by a long jumper

Mackey_Rose
11-22-2010, 02:04 PM
Let's also not act like Granger's contract is some sweetheart deal for the Pacers.

It's probably fair compensation, but it isn't like he did us any huge favors by signing that contract.

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 02:09 PM
Let's also not act like Granger's contract is some sweetheart deal for the Pacers.

It's probably fair compensation, but it isn't like he did us any huge favors by signing that contract.

I disagree

I think he could have definitley gotten a max contract from a few different teams, very simmlar to the JO situation

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 02:10 PM
Let's also not act like Granger's contract is some sweetheart deal for the Pacers.

It's probably fair compensation, but it isn't like he did us any huge favors by signing that contract.
ITs a lot harder to get fair compensation in the NBA with your star player. Just ask the Hornets with Peja or the Hawks with Joe Johnson or Baron Davis with the Clippers or the Pistons with Ben Gordon or Jamison when he was with the Wizards, etc etc....

Edit: I bet I could point out more teams that over paid for a star player than you could come up those teams that didn't.

cdash
11-22-2010, 02:42 PM
I disagree

I think he could have definitley gotten a max contract from a few different teams, very simmlar to the JO situation

I really, really don't think so.

ballism
11-22-2010, 02:50 PM
I don't know about max, but it was smart for us to give that extension before he became a restricted FA. We did it based on his play till 2008. If he became a FA after 2009 season when he was playing like an All Star... I think it's fair to assume there would have been quite a few buyers.

Who were top free agents during summer 2009 anyway? Shawn Marion, Hedo Turkoglu, Ron Artest, Allen Iverson... who else? Kobe, Nash resigned with their own teams, Boozer took his option, so there was quite a few mediocre players getting overpayed. Danny would have been the top of the FA class.

Max or not max, we would have payed much more to match his contract.

Trader Joe
11-22-2010, 03:12 PM
It's all relative. Granger could go out and drop 30+ on Lebron tonight (as he has in the past) and people would give him some credit, but then get right back on him after the next loss. It comes with the territory Danny is in and will probably keep coming at him until the Pacers are consistent winners.

croz24
11-22-2010, 03:21 PM
idk...based on value to this team, i'd argue hibbert is far more valuable right now. but does hibbert's value make him a better player than danny? or is hibbert's value more of a product of the pacers lacking a solid back-up post presence?

Dece
11-22-2010, 03:29 PM
There isn't a team in the NBA who'd sign Granger to the max.

daschysta
11-22-2010, 03:32 PM
Joe Johnson got the max (highest payed player in the league IIRC, as did rudy gay (who has looked great this year, but was coming off a year where he certainly didn't earn it.)

Granger could very well get the max depending on the situation.

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 03:34 PM
I really, really don't think so.
After the Joe Johnson max I think its really plausible that Danny could have gotten a max with another team. I know they are different players but just looking at their stats in 08-09 Danny had more points and a better 3pnt percentage. In his career he is as good as Joe Johnson when it comes to shooting. I am not saying they deserve a max but that other teams are stupid enough to offer it.

pacerDU
11-22-2010, 03:42 PM
I agree totally mellifluous.

It's still a very strange phenomenon to me how people's opinions seem to change from game to game. I don't know if it's just this forum or if it's the same from other team's fans as well, but when we win we're world-beaters and when we lose we need to take apart the whole team.

I think Danny's really stepped-up his game this year. He's still scoring the ball (and at a better percentage than last year mind you), but his defense is also much improved.

Look, I certainly don't want to make this into a fire-the-coach thread. For me though, much of the problem lies with Obie. It's not ALL him, but I think most of the players would look better in a more traditional offense. I think Collison would certainly be better with someone else coaching. When he's able to play his game, it really opens up the offense for everyone else.

I'm personally quite happy with how Danny's performed this year. I think we just need a different playing-style/system and another guy to help out Danny. Hibbert's coming along nicely, we just need one other consistent scorer.

Free agency next year, or trade deadline this year...

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 03:45 PM
There isn't a team in the NBA who'd sign Granger to the max.

I am sorry but I dont know how on God's green earth you can make that assessment

Jon Theodore
11-22-2010, 03:49 PM
Yeah with organizations like the Clippers and T Wolves you can't say nobody would sign him to the max, you can say that a winning organization would not sign Danny to the max...because he is not a max player.

Kaufman
11-22-2010, 03:51 PM
I agree totally mellifluous.

It's still a very strange phenomenon to me how people's opinions seem to change from game to game.

Respectfully speaking, who's opinion is changing game to game?

I am still on the fence. I think if the right trade comes along, I would really consider it. I need to see consistency from Danny, in the meantime, before I am sold on who exactly he is and what exactly he brings to this team.

If he can sustain his defensive play, and stop chucking threes, and develop that killer instinct again that he had when he fell to the floor diving for a ball and lost teeth, I would be happy with that. But I think he needs to show consistency. Three games is NOT enough for me.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 03:56 PM
It's all relative. Granger could go out and drop 30+ on Lebron tonight (as he has in the past) and people would give him some credit, but then get right back on him after the next loss. It comes with the territory Danny is in and will probably keep coming at him until the Pacers are consistent winners.

Anymore it doesn't matter who you are or how good you are someone will find something to discredit you about.

ballism
11-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Yeah with organizations like the Clippers and T Wolves you can't say nobody would sign him to the max, you can say that a winning organization would not sign Danny to the max...because he is not a max player.

Winning organizations tend to overspend quite a bit actually *cough* Rashard Lewis, Andrew Bynum and Kirilenko *cough*
But I agree in the sense that he's not someone you can throw a max at and expect to make the playoffs in the East, a la D-Wade.

OakMoses
11-22-2010, 03:59 PM
There isn't a team in the NBA who'd sign Granger to the max.

Agreed, but I also don't know if any GM would consider Granger's contract particularly onerous.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 04:00 PM
I agree totally mellifluous.

It's still a very strange phenomenon to me how people's opinions seem to change from game to game.

I call them Yoyo's. Get it?

pizza guy
11-22-2010, 04:01 PM
OP nailed it. Granger is paid like a 2nd banana because he is a 2nd banana. Biggest problem with this team is that we're pretending our 2nd can be a 1st, we think we could have a 1st in Hibbert, but still don't know, and we've got a boatload of cap space this offseason to sign a 1st...but the only option is Melo (some aren't even sold on him as a 1st), and it's highly unlikely he's coming here.

So, where does that leave us? As a .500 team looking to find the right line-ups and rotations to win on a consistent basis playing team ball. Which, is definitely better than we have been, but not where any of us want to stay. Are there any 1st bananas available in trade? Who knows? Is there some way we trade up in the draft and pick a 1st banana? These are the questions that will drive this board as the season progresses, and especially this offseason.

For now, we've got one of the absolute best 2nd bananas in the NBA, and we're going to have to find a way to win with him, so why don't we get off his back a little because he's giving everything he's got. Some nights it'll be enough, some nights it won't.

--pizza

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 04:05 PM
I really, really don't think so.
I hope everyone realizes that the contract we gave Granger is only 2.65 million dollars less per year than the max.

Danny at that time could only be give 25% of the salary cap given he was a 4 year player. IMO its not a stretch to think that a team wouldn't have given him 2.6 million dollars more for his services.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 04:05 PM
When have we had the opportunity to acquire a better player than Granger?

In the 2006 draft we took Shawne Williams at #17 instead of Rajon Rondo who was picked 4 spots later.

In the 2009 draft we selected Hansbrough at #13 instead of selecting a very much needed PG in Jrue Holiday. In my opinion, the PG is the very most important player on the team. We decided to draft PF instead of PG therefore having to use Troy Murphy in a deal that sent us Collison. Had we selected a PG, preferably Holiday in the 09 draft, we could of used Murphy to get a valuable player at a different position other than PG, like PF or SG.

I said it than and I say it now, we made a very bad decision in the 09 draft and a huge mistake by not selecting Holiday and taking Tyler, of all people, with the 13th pick. He has been ok but nothing special. Holiday is having a breakout year in just his second season and will prove down the course of his career to be more valuable than someone in Danny Granger. PG's are a rare commodity in this league, SF's are a dime a dozen.

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 04:25 PM
In the 2006 draft we took Shawne Williams at #17 instead of Rajon Rondo who was picked 4 spots later.

In the 2009 draft we selected Hansbrough at #13 instead of selecting a very much needed PG in Jrue Holiday. In my opinion, the PG is the very most important player on the team. We decided to draft PF instead of PG therefore having to use Troy Murphy in a deal that sent us Collison. Had we selected a PG, preferably Holiday in the 09 draft, we could of used Murphy to get a valuable player at a different position other than PG, like PF or SG.

I said it than and I say it now, we made a very bad decision in the 09 draft and a huge mistake by not selecting Holiday and taking Tyler, of all people, with the 13th pick. He has been ok but nothing special. Holiday is having a breakout year in just his second season and will prove down the course of his career to be more valuable than someone in Danny Granger. PG's are a rare commodity in this league, SF's are a dime a dozen.
You do realize that there is not much separating Holiday from Collsion at this point in their career and if 7 assists and 13 points is a breakout year than I guess thats not much of a standard for a breakout year now is it.

IF SF's are a dime a dozen than how come only 10 teams have great SF's then?

daschysta
11-22-2010, 04:25 PM
In the 2006 draft we took Shawne Williams at #17 instead of Rajon Rondo who was picked 4 spots later.

In the 2009 draft we selected Hansbrough at #13 instead of selecting a very much needed PG in Jrue Holiday. In my opinion, the PG is the very most important player on the team. We decided to draft PF instead of PG therefore having to use Troy Murphy in a deal that sent us Collison. Had we selected a PG, preferably Holiday in the 09 draft, we could of used Murphy to get a valuable player at a different position other than PG, like PF or SG.

I said it than and I say it now, we made a very bad decision in the 09 draft and a huge mistake by not selecting Holiday and taking Tyler, of all people, with the 13th pick. He has been ok but nothing special. Holiday is having a breakout year in just his second season and will prove down the course of his career to be more valuable than someone in Danny Granger. PG's are a rare commodity in this league, SF's are a dime a dozen.

The circumstances in which we were able to get someone as good as Collison were very specific. If the hornets weren't trying to appease CP3 the deal likely never would have happened. It's too hard to play what ifs and hindsight is 20-20. Hansbrough still looks like he could be very solid. I'd take Collison over holiday anyhow. You can't assume that collison will be better than granger either, and fans in philly really haven't been that happy with holiday this year. Also we have a pretty good track record in the draft, and have gotten quite a few steals that should be acknowledged. More often than not i've been pretty happy with our draft picks, given where they have been.

Infinite MAN_force
11-22-2010, 04:45 PM
Danny Granger is better than Joe Johnson. Joe Johnson got the max. It is completily in the realm of possibility. I think you could make the case he is currently underpaid a bit.

Lets flip this around, was Reggie Miller a franchise player/first bananna/whatever? I would venture to say Danny Granger is a more talented basketball player than Reggie Miller. Reggie was clutch, but its not like he was a guy who you hand the ball to and say "go". He scored by hitting shots running off screens, and his defense wasn't anything to write home about. We did pretty damn well with him as our best player.

I hate these conversations bickering about who is a first option or batman/robin blablabla. As Unclebuck always says, there are probably only about 6-7 true franchise players of that caliber in the entire NBA. Odds are you aren't going to get one of those guys. Ill take Danny as a nice consolation prize, a guy who I would consider near the top of the "second tier" so to speak.

ballism
11-22-2010, 04:50 PM
Holliday should be a great defender, that's his advantage over Collison. That said, I don't know how you can blame the management for not taking Holliday or Rondo. Many teams passed on these guys, there were serious question marks with them coming in. And we had more than our fair share with mid round steals. Sure, we didn't get Rondo and Holliday, but we got Danny and Hibbert. That's much more than other 15 teams drafting in the 10-20 range over the past 6 years could say.

daschysta
11-22-2010, 05:00 PM
Holiday has been no better than darren defensively this year, and Darren was considered teh better defender coming out of college anyhow.

graphic-er
11-22-2010, 05:11 PM
In the 2006 draft we took Shawne Williams at #17 instead of Rajon Rondo who was picked 4 spots later.


We had just given tinsley an extension. No point in drafting another point guard. Also of we did we wouldnt have drafted rondo. He couldnt hit a jump shot. Boston grabbed him with all picka they had stock piled.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 05:16 PM
In the 2006 draft we took Shawne Williams at #17 instead of Rajon Rondo who was picked 4 spots later.

In the 2009 draft we selected Hansbrough at #13 instead of selecting a very much needed PG in Jrue Holiday. In my opinion, the PG is the very most important player on the team. We decided to draft PF instead of PG therefore having to use Troy Murphy in a deal that sent us Collison. Had we selected a PG, preferably Holiday in the 09 draft, we could of used Murphy to get a valuable player at a different position other than PG, like PF or SG.

I said it than and I say it now, we made a very bad decision in the 09 draft and a huge mistake by not selecting Holiday and taking Tyler, of all people, with the 13th pick. He has been ok but nothing special. Holiday is having a breakout year in just his second season and will prove down the course of his career to be more valuable than someone in Danny Granger. PG's are a rare commodity in this league, SF's are a dime a dozen.

There's other ways of looking at it.

I think at the start of a rebuild you need to look for projects that can turn into valuable pieces, (Roy Hibbert) and other young core players before going after a point guard. A franchise point guard can make to much of a difference if you get one right off the bat. They make you too good to get other high draft picks, but not good enough to contend as quickly.

I think it's best to get a good point guard toward the end of your rebuild. Like when we got Collison.

Of course if the guy is a Chris Paul you get them whenever you can and sort the rest out later.

ballism
11-22-2010, 05:17 PM
Holiday has been no better than darren defensively this year, and Darren was considered teh better defender coming out of college anyhow.

Well lets just agree to disagree then. I'd love Darren to have Holliday's defense, but he just doesn't have it. And in time, the gap will probably get even bigger, considering Holliday's size advantage. Holliday has the perfect size to be a defensive monster at 1, and he doesn't lack commitment.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 05:22 PM
You do realize that there is not much separating Holiday from Collsion at this point in their career and if 7 assists and 13 points is a breakout year than I guess thats not much of a standard for a breakout year now is it.

IF SF's are a dime a dozen than how come only 10 teams have great SF's then?

You don't get my point. Im not saying Holiday is better than Collison. What Im saying is had we selected Holiday there would of been no need to use the Murphy trade chip to acquire our starting PG since we already would of had one. We could of traded Troy to get another valuable position player and add another key piece to this team. Also, yes Holiday is playing great this year. Remember he is on the 76ers, his pts have increased by 6, his assists went from 3.8 to 7.2, he's getting a half a steal more a game, and his shooting % has basically stayed the same while attempting 5 more shots a game than last year. His numbers are more impressive than Collisons.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 05:28 PM
We had just given tinsley an extension. No point in drafting another point guard. Also of we did we wouldnt have drafted rondo. He couldnt hit a jump shot. Boston grabbed him with all picka they had stock piled.

Behind Tinsley look what we had, Keith McLeod, Sarunas, and Darrell Armstrong. Another PG wouldn't of hurt, especially at that spot in the draft.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 05:43 PM
IF SF's are a dime a dozen than how come only 10 teams have great SF's then?
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Gerald Wallace
Josh Smith
Andre Iguodala
Danny Granger
Tayshaun Prince
Rudy Gay
Luol Deng
Caron Butler
Paul Pierce
Stephen Jackson
Jeff Green
Michael Beasley
Trevor Ariza
Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Grant Hill
Richard Jefferson

Not sure what your definition of "great" is but here are 20 above average SF's in this league. Than you have your up and comers like Dorrel Wright, Nicholas Batum, and Wilson Chandler to name a few. Only a few teams(4 or 5) have an average SF. As you can see more than 10 teams have "great" SF's, now don't they?

MLB007
11-22-2010, 05:50 PM
Joe Johnson got the max (highest payed player in the league IIRC, as did rudy gay (who has looked great this year, but was coming off a year where he certainly didn't earn it.)

Granger could very well get the max depending on the situation.

Johnson got the max BECAUSE of the lock out situation next year. There was much writtten about how the owners opened up their checkbooks BECAUSE they knew the season is in danger AND the rules (contracts) will be changed.
He would not have gotten that contract under any other circumstances.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 05:51 PM
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Gerald Wallace
Josh Smith
Andre Iguodala
Danny Granger
Tayshaun Prince
Rudy Gay
Luol Deng
Caron Butler
Paul Pierce
Stephen Jackson
Jeff Green
Michael Beasley
Trevor Ariza
Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Grant Hill
Richard Jefferson

Not sure what your definition of "great" is but here are 20 above average SF's in this league. Than you have your up and comers like Dorrel Wright, Nicholas Batum, and Wilson Chandler to name a few. Only a few teams(4 or 5) have an average SF. As you can see more than 10 teams have "great" SF's, now don't they?

My definition is only one is great. I would say about twelve were pretty good though.

MLB007
11-22-2010, 05:51 PM
Behind Tinsley look what we had, Keith McLeod, Sarunas, and Darrell Armstrong. Another PG wouldn't of hurt, especially at that spot in the draft.

Yeh, LOTS of us wanted a PG.
I wanted Rondo badly.

daschysta
11-22-2010, 06:12 PM
Johnson got the max BECAUSE of the lock out situation next year. There was much writtten about how the owners opened up their checkbooks BECAUSE they knew the season is in danger AND the rules (contracts) will be changed.
He would not have gotten that contract under any other circumstances.

Gilbert arenas, Allan Houston, Rudy Gay, Michael Redd... The list goes on. Danny very easily could have got the max from someone coming off of his all star season.

Justin Tyme
11-22-2010, 07:22 PM
I really, really don't think so.



Whether he could have gotten a max or not, w/o a doubt in my mind he could have gotten more than what the Pacers gave him. The season after he sign a new contract he had a GOOD year. If he hadn't signed with the Pacers, some team would have paid Granger more than he's making now. You can take that to the bank.

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 07:35 PM
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Gerald Wallace
Josh Smith
Andre Iguodala
Danny Granger
Tayshaun Prince
Rudy Gay
Luol Deng
Caron Butler
Paul Pierce
Stephen Jackson
Jeff Green
Michael Beasley
Trevor Ariza
Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Grant Hill
Richard Jefferson

Not sure what your definition of "great" is but here are 20 above average SF's in this league. Than you have your up and comers like Dorrel Wright, Nicholas Batum, and Wilson Chandler to name a few. Only a few teams(4 or 5) have an average SF. As you can see more than 10 teams have "great" SF's, now don't they?
Then i could give you 20 pgs that would equal the talent level that you listed. I would also take the liberty as you did to list off guys who played multiple positions much of which are not sf's. ;)

I highly doubt you can prove to me that great pgs are harder to find than great sf's. I also doubt you can show me that the draft has produced less guards than forwards in the last 5 years when looking at talent level. If anything its the reverse of what you are saying.

IF you were to look at the who leads the nba in points reb and assist in 2010 this would be your list according to NBA.com
1. Gasol
2. Lebron
3. Rose
4. Durant
5. Bryant
6. Carmelo
7. Westbrook
8. Deron Williams
9. Dirk
10. Ellis

To me thats a good mixture of guards and forwards and the only guy drafted in the second round to make that list was a guard.

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 08:11 PM
You don't get my point. Im not saying Holiday is better than Collison. What Im saying is had we selected Holiday there would of been no need to use the Murphy trade chip to acquire our starting PG since we already would of had one. We could of traded Troy to get another valuable position player and add another key piece to this team.
Right we would have used Murphy as a trade chip to get a pf which would have been who? Can you honestly say that they would have been better than what we have. I could understand your agrument if you think Murphy would land us a starting pf but he couldn't and he didn't.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 08:24 PM
Then i could give you 20 pgs that would equal the talent level that you listed. I would also take the liberty as you did to list off guys who played multiple positions much of which are not sf's. ;)

I highly doubt you can prove to me that great pgs are harder to find than great sf's. I also doubt you can show me that the draft has produced less guards than forwards in the last 5 years when looking at talent level. If anything its the reverse of what you are saying.

IF you were to look at the who leads the nba in points reb and assist in 2010 this would be your list according to NBA.com
1. Gasol
2. Lebron
3. Rose
4. Durant
5. Bryant
6. Carmelo
7. Westbrook
8. Deron Williams
9. Dirk
10. Ellis

To me thats a good mixture of guards and forwards and the only guy drafted in the second round to make that list was a guard.

You keep using the word great. Do you realize there are only 5 great players in the NBA? There are hardly many quality PG's as there are SF's in the NBA plain and simple. A point guard, a real true point guard is very rare to have. To me, SF is the least important position on the court but thats just my opinon. Im not sure what your getting at but you seem to think there are all these great players in the league. I consider Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson great. There are very few players in the league right now that are great. Kobe is great but I don't consider Lebron great, unless he gets a couple rings. Since 1980, only 3 point guards have been selected 1st overall while 7 small forwards have been selected 1st. A true point guard is hard to find, a lot harder to find than a wing player. You are the only one that thinks otherwise.

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 09:44 PM
You keep using the word great. Do you realize there are only 5 great players in the NBA? There are hardly many quality PG's as there are SF's in the NBA plain and simple. A point guard, a real true point guard is very rare to have. To me, SF is the least important position on the court but thats just my opinon. Im not sure what your getting at but you seem to think there are all these great players in the league. I consider Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson great. There are very few players in the league right now that are great. Kobe is great but I don't consider Lebron great, unless he gets a couple rings. Since 1980, only 3 point guards have been selected 1st overall while 7 small forwards have been selected 1st. A true point guard is hard to find, a lot harder to find than a wing player. You are the only one that thinks otherwise.
Insert good then and i am glad you think for everyone else except me. It must be hard though.

You can look at what is bolded part in another light. Pgs aren't as valuable as you make them out to be. Maybe teams feel that an Aaron Brooks or a Toney Parker will be there in the late 20's while a Carmelo type player won't. I mean some of the greatest pg's the league has ever had didn't get drafted with the first pick of the draft.

Powww
11-22-2010, 10:30 PM
All I wanna know is why he REFUSES to drive to the basket? He acts like he goes up for a lay up or a dunk he is going to catch a std. Dude can 2 times the player if he just drove to the basket more, there is no need for all these damn 3's and long jumpers.

15th parallel
11-22-2010, 11:19 PM
How about tonight's game? Nice overall effort by Danny in an impressive win against the Heat.

Nice defense on James, great passing for 6 assists, and ice cold 3 point daggers. Gotta give him credit now, eh?

Anthem
11-22-2010, 11:28 PM
here are 20 above average SF's in this league.
20? Really? I find it hard to believe there are more than 15 above average SFs in this league.

Or, if you're counting bench players as well, there's more like 45 above average SFs.

Gamble1
11-22-2010, 11:46 PM
20? Really? I find it hard to believe there are more than 15 above average SFs in this league.

Or, if you're counting bench players as well, there's more like 45 above average SFs.
Its just a silly argument. He wants me to have the restriction of positional purity while he list off pfs and sg's and calls them sf's.

The last 10 years teams who have won the NBA championship have had pg's who were drafted in the teens and 20's and I am suppose to believe its the most important position in the NBA and the hardest to fill. :confused: