PDA

View Full Version : Who are some "Hidden gems" in 2011 free agency?



BringJackBack
11-21-2010, 09:00 PM
I saw this on another board and I figured that this can generate some good discussion.

Everyone has said that this year's free agent class is extremely weak. The only guys that were worth anything were Carmelo Anthony, Al Horford, Tony Parker, Caron Butler, and Zach Randolph. Tony Parker and Al Horford have now signed extensions so that makes things even weaker. Carmelo Anthony isn't coming here either. Caron Butler and Zach Randolph potentially can, but there will be some competition to pick either of these players up. However, even though the high echelon players aren't very good, that doesn't mean that the role players are crap as well. So, who do you think are some players that we can bring in that may be under the radar that can come here and be productive and help us out on the win column?

Kendrick Perkins- First and foremost, I believe that the best under-the-radar player that we can possibly pick up is Kendrick Perkins. His injury has seemingly made everyone forget about him and let's not forget how good of a defensive player he is. He had 132 blocks last year which is good for ninth in the league, and he has an 11.5 offensive rebound percentage which is good for eighth in the league. He sets bonecrushing picks, and he is just mean. I don't think that I have ever seen him smile. Which is a good thing.

He finishes around the rim (2nd in the league last year with a .602 percentage) and has a respectable back to basket game which is valuable for a 3rd big nowadays. I know that this may be somewhat of a stretch considering that Boston is in love with him, but we must as well make an offer to him as he would tremendously help us as a 3rd big. He has won a championship and he has been around leaders like Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce. Not to mention that if he and Roy worked together in the offseason he would potentially make Roy the best center in the league (no hyperbole).

So, that is just one player that I have had on my mind. He'd at least be a fan favorite for sure.

And for good measure here is a very good article wrote on the day of Finals game 7 about Perk: http://nbaplaybook.com/2010/06/17/the-celtics-defense-without-kendrick-perkins/

Tayshaun Prince- Kstat I may need some input here, buddy. I know that Tayshaun Prince is a pesky defender and he is made of steel. He is a respectable floor spacer and he has an all around game. He has a good defensive rebounding percentage (13.8 last year), and he can really score at a high percentage for a player of his position (.473 from the field so far this season). He's got long arms, he's a winner, he has ability to create off the dribble, plays with intensity, and he's just a glue guy. Basically James Posey when he was with Boston. Good thing.

If we brought him off the bench for Danny next year we would have a very, very solid backup small forward. I love the idea of having two good rebounding and defending small forwards both starting and coming off the bench. I know that technically and morally we aren't supposed to be doing any business w/ guys from Detroit, but for the sake of winning I don't really care. Tayshaun would be a real glue guy for us.

Here is yet another article about what has been "up" with Tayshaun. It just really seems as if it is time for him to part ways with the franchise: http://www.freep.com/article/20101120/SPORTS18/101119079/1048/Sports/Whats-wrong-with-Pistons-forward-Tayshaun-Prince

DeAndre Jordan- If we strictly want to go youth movement here, I think that DeAndre can be a good pickup. First of all, he's a big boy. He's a big time athlete, and he can rebound the ball (2.0 offensive rebounds per game in 18 minutes per game which is a 12.9 offensive rebound %.) He also has had nice or decent defensive rebounding percentages in his first two years in the league (25.5 and 23.5 respecively.)

To put this into perspective, let's look at Jeff Foster's defensive and offensive rebounding percentages. In his best defensive rebounding percentage year, he was at 25.4 percentage compared to DeAndre's 23.5 last year (his first year he didn't play too many games). Pretty good considering that DeAndre is just 22, eh?

He is awkward around the basket and doesn't hit very many contested shots around the rim though. He is flat footed and can't really go up very well such as Amare Stoudamire or Javale McGee for example (Perk has this problem too). However, he still hits his shots. He has very good percentages for a big man (.644 fg% this year) and that is decent coming from a 22 year old kid drafted on potential who averages 9.9 ppg per 36 minutes. He's limited offensively, but he doesn't take silly shots.

Some more downsides: Awful free throw shooter and not good from the perimeter.

So, to conclude, pick him up if you think that he can steadily improve year by year to become a good-to-elite 3rd big. If he doesn't he'll be okay. Still better than Solomon Jones.

Some more but I have gotten too lazy to keep going on: Andrei Kirilenko (if he ever learns to stop shooting from the perimeter), Samuel Dalembert (for a one or two year deal at the most), Joel Pryzbilla (be healthy my man), Nick Collison, Marcus Thornton (restricted), Chuck Hayes, Tyson Chandler (I'd love this pickup if cheap. I'd absolutely love it), and Shane Battier*

*I bet that Shane isn't going anywhere. So I didn't expand on that.

Who do you guys think we should go after that we haven't really talked about?

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 09:09 PM
I love Deandea's game cant play offense a lick but would be a good backup to roy.

kester99
11-21-2010, 09:56 PM
Carl Landry.

I don't know what's under the radar or not, and I haven't heard any news on him lately...but this is a guy who could help....for 2010 so far: 17.4 pts/36 min; 7.0 rbs/36; 1 asst/36. Good energy guy. Good point production.

Real GM still shows him unrestricted for summer 2011.

And the Indiana connection couldn't hurt ticket sales. Not a major factor in this, but true.

ballism
11-21-2010, 10:07 PM
I think our top 2 targets should be Zach Randolph and David West (player option), if they are available. I'd prefer Zach Randolph, because age should have less of an impact on him in final years of a contract - considering his style of play. But I would be very happy with either of them, and would give Granger's type of deal to get them. With an All Star quality PF, I think we have enough talent to win 50+ games. If we miss on those two, we could also go Jason Richardson, he fills a need (SG), but he currently makes 14.5 mil. I like him, but I'm not sure that he improves us enough to compete for home court in the playoffs. So I'd pass on him if it goes above 4 years 40 mil or similar deal.

If we can't get Zach Randolph, David West or J-Rich, I think we need to settle for role players. I'd absolutely love T-Prince - both for his game and his playoff experience - but he plays the same position as Danny. He's too good to come off the bench on this team, his price would be too high for a backup, and I wouldn't want to force our best player (Granger) to play out of position. Maybe we could play Prince out of position, but he's getting on the old side and probably won't be able to fill out 2 spot permanently, and he's too thin to play PF. Same goes for Caron Butler.

If we go for role players, then I think a backup C is top priority. I think Perkins is too good to be a backup, and his price will be too big. I mean, average salary for a C is around 7-8 mil in this league. If Brendan Haywood can get 5 years 42 mil guaranteed, Perkins will command so much more.

DeAndre on the other hand, I like him and he might be had for cheap. Clippers seem to be quite high on him atm, but with a high lottery pick incoming they might just get something better and let him go. He's inconsistent right now as a starter, while Chris Kaman is out. But he's becoming into one of the better backup Cs imo. Anything around 4 mil a year - I think that would be a great deal for us. Our C spot would be fine for years.

If DeAndre is not available, I wouldn't mind Big Baby Davis. He's way undersized, but he's dealing with backup C minutes just fine for the Celtics. Not to mention, a guy with his toughness and playoff experience is just good for this team. He could also back up 4, and his salary will probably be in 4 mil range.

My 3rd option at backup C would probably be Nazr Mohammed if we could get him at veteran minimum or a bit above. He's been on multiple playoff teams, and as backup C he'd be better than most. If we can't get any of those at reasonable price, I wouldn't mind Ronny Turiaf - if he's available (has a player option left). Nenad Krstic would also be ok-ish, but he would have to take a paycut, he currently makes over 5.5 mil in his last year, and that's just too much for what he brings imo.

As for role players at other positions, I'd absolutely love Matt Barnes. His salary this year is 1.8 mil. If we can get him at around 2-3 mil, we should. Toughness, good D, 3 pointers and playoff experience doesn't hurt.

ballism
11-21-2010, 10:15 PM
Carl Landry.

I don't know what's under the radar or not, and I haven't heard any news on him lately...but this is a guy who could help....for 2010 so far: 17.4 pts/36 min; 7.0 rbs/36; 1 asst/36. Good energy guy. Good point production.

Real GM still shows him unrestricted for summer 2011.

And the Indiana connection couldn't hurt ticket sales. Not a major factor in this, but true.

I wonder what kind of money he will command this summer. Personally, I wouldn't pay much - he's 27 already so he is who he is right now. Energy guy with inferior rebounding and average defense. I think we can develop Hansbrough into Landry. But if his salary is similar to what he currently makes, sure why not - front court depth doesn't hurt.

BringJackBack
11-21-2010, 10:16 PM
Carl Landry.

I don't know what's under the radar or not, and I haven't heard any news on him lately...but this is a guy who could help....for 2010 so far: 17.4 pts/36 min; 7.0 rbs/36; 1 asst/36. Good energy guy. Good point production.

Real GM still shows him unrestricted for summer 2011.

And the Indiana connection couldn't hurt ticket sales. Not a major factor in this, but true.

The thing that kind of scares me is his sup-par rebounding. It's pretty terrible. Here's the stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/landrca01.html

Heres something from a Rockets board about his rebounding back in December: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=181680

And for good measure: http://www.sacbee.com/2010/10/28/3138825/landry-answers-critics-of-his.html#mi_rss=Kings/NBA

I don't know if it is effort or ability with the rebounding thing with Landry, but I hope that it is the effort so that it can get fixed.

I am not way too worried about his rebounding though because as Westphal said he boxes out. He also had a positive +/- stat with Houston (40). It went down with Sacramento, but almost everyone besides Sergio had a negative one as they were a losing team. If I remember correctly they were tanking. It was -129 for Landry with the Kings.

However, I would welcome Carl Landry to the team with open arms. Hits shots at a high clip, is an active player, and can create his own shot (something that our PF tandem can't do, which is critical for postseason play). But he won't ever get us over the hump into contention.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 10:17 PM
I wonder what kind of money he will command this summer. Personally, I wouldn't pay much - he's 27 already so he is who he is right now. Energy guy with inferior rebounding and average defense. I think we can develop Hansbrough into Landry. But if his salary is similar to what he currently makes, sure why not - front court depth doesn't hurt.

he will problly get a drew gooden type deal 5yrs 32 million

BlueNGold
11-21-2010, 10:22 PM
Landry is currently better than anything we have now, but he's just not good enough to be the future starting PF of any contender. Although Roy has improved his mobility, we still need a longer player with better athleticism at the 4 if we expect to contend with this group of players. While Landry is currently better, I think Hans is fine coming off the bench in that role backup PF role.

If we ever expect to contend, we have to acquire better players than this.

BringJackBack
11-21-2010, 10:32 PM
I think our top 2 targets should be Zach Randolph and David West (player option), if they are available. I'd prefer Zach Randolph, because age should have less of an impact on him in final years of a contract - considering his style of play. But I would be very happy with either of them, and would give Granger's type of deal to get them. With an All Star quality PF, I think we have enough talent to win 50+ games. If we miss on those two, we could also go Jason Richardson, he fills a need (SG), but he currently makes 14.5 mil. I like him, but I'm not sure that he improves us enough to compete for home court in the playoffs. So I'd pass on him if it goes above 4 years 40 mil or similar deal.
David West would be great for this team imo. If we do pick n' rolls and pick n' pops, Darren Collison could average 8+ assists per game next season with either Zach or West. I too think that we could flirt with 50 games if we picked up one of the two, got a new coach, and with the improvement of our players. Sorry, but no to Jason Richardson if we are paying him 4/40 million.

If we can't get Zach Randolph, David West or J-Rich, I think we need to settle for role players. I'd absolutely love T-Prince - both for his game and his playoff experience - but he plays the same position as Danny. He's too good to come off the bench on this team, his price would be too high for a backup, and I wouldn't want to force our best player (Granger) to play out of position. Maybe we could play Prince out of position, but he's getting on the old side and probably won't be able to fill out 2 spot permanently, and he's too thin to play PF. Same goes for Caron Butler.
Tayshaun isn't quite as good as he was in Detroit years ago, and I think that he would be a great, great backup to Danny in my opinion. His price may be high, but he would for sure fill a need which is having a bench. Our bench has been consistently terrible for years and it's finally time that we have a good bench. I think that we will be fighting with Oklahoma City though if we try to pick him up. We could really use his bench defense and offense though.

If we go for role players, then I think a backup C is top priority. I think Perkins is too good to be a backup, and his price will be too big. I mean, average salary for a C is around 7-8 mil in this league. If Brendan Haywood can get 5 years 42 mil guaranteed, Perkins will command so much more.
Sure, he is too good to be a backup. And I agree with you, 7-8 million is too much for a backup. But the reason that Brendan Haywood got that deal is because of silly management and no one has the money for that this offseason compared to last. But, I'm just saying, if we had Perk and Tayshaun as our backups, we'd have an amazing bench. It'd be crazy. Anywhere around the MLE I would do it without looking back.

I wouldn't know what to do though. Roy needs his 33-35 minutes and Perk needs about 25-28 per game. I suppose that we could move Perk to power forward situationally but that wouldn't really work. I would hate to only have Perk out there 14 minutes a game.

DeAndre on the other hand, I like him and he might be had for cheap. Clippers seem to be quite high on him atm, but with a high lottery pick incoming they might just get something better and let him go. He's inconsistent right now as a starter, while Chris Kaman is out. But he's becoming into one of the better backup Cs imo. Anything around 4 mil a year - I think that would be a great deal for us. Our C spot would be fine for years.

If DeAndre is not available, I wouldn't mind Big Baby Davis. He's way undersized, but he's dealing with backup C minutes just fine for the Celtics. Not to mention, a guy with his toughness and playoff experience is just good for this team. He could also back up 4, and his salary will probably be in 4 mil range.
Agreed here, except we have Hansbrough who is as good, if not better, than Davis. So we don't really need Davis.

My 3rd option at backup C would probably be Nazr Mohammed if we could get him at veteran minimum or a bit above. He's been on multiple playoff teams, and as backup C he'd be better than most. If we can't get any of those at reasonable price, I wouldn't mind Ronny Turiaf - if he's available (has a player option left). Nenad Krstic would also be ok-ish, but he would have to take a paycut, he currently makes over 5.5 mil in his last year, and that's just too much for what he brings imo.
Interesting with Ronny Turiaf there. Not only is he a pretty good defender, he is also a very good teammate.

As for role players at other positions, I'd absolutely love Matt Barnes. His salary this year is 1.8 mil. If we can get him at around 2-3 mil, we should. Toughness, good D, 3 pointers and playoff experience doesn't hurt.
The only downside is the case that got dropped in Sacramento. As long as that wouldn't bring bad publicity, I'd be all for bringing Barnes in. He's just a smart player who doesn't pretend to like opposing players or teams.

.

MyFavMartin
11-21-2010, 10:37 PM
Josh McRoberts, Mike Dunleavy, Jeff Foster?


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=FreeAgents-10-11



I could see a lot of interest in Carl Landry. If we don't and we don't resign McRoberts, I could see interest in Kris Humphries or Yi Jianlin at PF, but these guys would back up Tyler.


I could see interest in Dalembert, if cheap, as a backup Center or Hollins as a end of the bench-type 3rd string Center.


I could see interest in Rasual Butler, Jamario Moon, Sam Young, or Luc Mbah a Moute as perimeter defenders, though we have Posey in that role and I'm happy with the rotation of Rush/Granger/George... PG needs to show some development this year, though.

Shannon Brown or Kelenna Azubuike as a Dahntay Jones type role, if DJ is moved.

ballism
11-21-2010, 10:42 PM
.

Ohh absolutely, Prince, Perkins, Hansbrough, Rush and AJ Price would be a terrific bench. But if we don't get proper starters before getting those two, we end up starting some of them. Also, you have to wonder how Prince would feel coming off the bench on an up-and-coming young team that isn't a contender. After all, he would be the most experienced player on the team, proven in the playoffs, a key player from a title team, and he's not really that old yet.
But if we somehow manage to get Zach and J-Rich (or similar level starters) and then T-Prince for 6th man, I'm absolutely for it.

MyFavMartin
11-21-2010, 10:50 PM
Prince can also contribute spot minutes at PF, dependent on matchups.

cinotimz
11-21-2010, 11:15 PM
Perkins is a starting caliber center in this league. No way he comes here unless Hibbert departs.

graphic-er
11-21-2010, 11:26 PM
We gotta make some noise in the playoffs this year if we hope to sign any of these battle tested Vets to be out backups. Otherwise they'll be the annual crop of players to chase rings and sign with the contenders.

Not so sure about DeAndre Jordan, at the game last week he was just terrible. Played pretty dirty too when he was guarding Roy. Got away with pushing Roy in the back all night long.

BringJackBack
11-21-2010, 11:40 PM
Perkins is a starting caliber center in this league. No way he comes here unless Hibbert departs.

Lamar Odom, Carl Landry, Antawn Jamison, Serge Ibaka, Al Harrington, and Taj Gibson are all starting caliber bigs in this league too. I don't think it really matters as long as Perk gets his 20-25 minutes in a game.

Of course he's probably going to want to resign with Boston, sign with Utah, or sign with Oklahoma City, but if we throw enough cash at him we can get him over here. As long as we attract attention this postseason, as graphic-er said, we can start to get guys to come over here.

jeffg-body
11-21-2010, 11:50 PM
My guys are Landry, Odom, West, and Randolph not necessarily in that order though.

BringJackBack
11-22-2010, 12:10 AM
What about Tyson Chandler you guys?

Rebounder, energy, above the rim player, get Collison a large number or assists, shot blocker. Would be a really good 2nd center for a couple years.

Is he too injured? Will he get overpaid?

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 12:16 AM
What about Tyson Chandler you guys?

Rebounder, energy, above the rim player, get Collison a large number or assists, shot blocker. Would be a really good 2nd center for a couple years.

Is he too injured? Will he get overpaid?

Cuban will pay him

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 12:37 AM
No thanks on DeAndre. Dalembert and Chandler would be great. If we could somehow get them both imagine that. Deepest frontcourt in the league.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 12:46 AM
Carl Landry.

I don't know what's under the radar or not, and I haven't heard any news on him lately...but this is a guy who could help....for 2010 so far: 17.4 pts/36 min; 7.0 rbs/36; 1 asst/36. Good energy guy. Good point production.

Real GM still shows him unrestricted for summer 2011.

And the Indiana connection couldn't hurt ticket sales. Not a major factor in this, but true.

Why is Landry so overrated on this board? Yeah he can score but thats it, all offense no defense. He averages 30.5 min/gm with a lousy 5.9 rebs/gm. Josh McRoberts averages just 23 min/gm and pulls down 6.6 rebs a game. As sad as it sounds I would rather stick with Josh and Tyler than give our money, a lot of money, to Carl freakin Landry. We better do much better than that this offseason.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 12:56 AM
Perkins is a starting caliber center in this league. No way he comes here unless Hibbert departs.

I think they could make a devastating Twin Towers combination.

They could both start and get 30-35 mpg.

When they play together Perk would play the low post and Roy the high post.

graphic-er
11-22-2010, 12:59 AM
I've not seen Landry play that much, but i've not heard any knock on his lack of defense.

Rebounding....he is a bit undersized. It would be pretty tough to find a big man who can score 17, rebound in double figures, and play defense in this free agency.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 01:00 AM
I think they could make a devastating Twin Towers combination.

They could both start and get 30-35 mpg.

When they play together Perk would play the low post and Roy the high post.

that would be good if we had the right coach to run that kind of system. But we need to start playing more of inteiror game. Not a peremiter game like we have done the past few yrs.

IndyProdigy
11-22-2010, 01:28 AM
We will have enough money for landry, i would want kirilenko as well.

and if we can turn ford/dahntay/foster/dun into a deal before the deadline, i think our team will be well off especially after next years draft, EVEN with some of the expectations of us making the playoffs with the squad we have now

graphic-er
11-22-2010, 01:37 AM
We will have enough money for landry, i would want kirilenko as well.

and if we can turn ford/dahntay/foster/dun into a deal before the deadline, i think our team will be well off especially after next years draft, EVEN with some of the expectations of us making the playoffs with the squad we have now

AK47 is over the hill, he played really well is his last contract year. The then his production took a nose dive, and he is injury prone, hasn't played close to a full season in a long time. Really, if you look at their numbers in comparative minutes he isn't any better than Tyler Hansbrough. 5 Rebounds a game for the last 3-4 seasons is pitiful for a guy with his ability.

pizza guy
11-22-2010, 01:37 AM
Trey Thompkins
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/trey-thompkins

CJ Leslie
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/cj-leslie

Let's not forget the draft. I think we'll look there for our PF X and use our cap space for role players that will be worth a darn (if we don't sign 'Melo).

--pizza

graphic-er
11-22-2010, 01:47 AM
Trey Thompkins
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/trey-thompkins

CJ Leslie
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/cj-leslie

Let's not forget the draft. I think we'll look there for our PF X and use our cap space for role players that will be worth a darn (if we don't sign 'Melo).

--pizza

Drafting a PF of the future is one way to go, but I don't think it fits the Plan. I mean you have Danny Granger in his prime, You have Roy Hibbert about to enter his prime. I don't think the Pacers want to wait another 3 years for a young big to develop. Certainly they should draft a big this coming draft though.

If I am the TPTB, then I am wanting to find a PF to pair with these guys now that will make us a perennial playoff team. They just need a big who is athletic around the rim, and scrappy. They seem to have guys now who are scrappy, but not athletic and vice versa. Gosh if we could only clone a Dale Davis.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 01:57 AM
Trey Thompkins
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/trey-thompkins

CJ Leslie
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/cj-leslie

Let's not forget the draft. I think we'll look there for our PF X and use our cap space for role players that will be worth a darn (if we don't sign 'Melo).

--pizza

I love trey's game.

Hicks
11-22-2010, 02:09 AM
I think they could make a devastating Twin Towers combination.

They could both start and get 30-35 mpg.

When they play together Perk would play the low post and Roy the high post.

And which one do you prefer to get eaten alive by power forwards and when the other team goes small?

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 02:11 AM
And which one do you prefer to get eaten alive by power forwards and when the other team goes small?

We are sort of good at going small our self.

Hicks
11-22-2010, 02:30 AM
We are sort of good at going small our self.

If they're both starting and playing 30+ minutes a game, you're not going small very often.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 03:33 AM
If they're both starting and playing 30+ minutes a game, you're not going small very often.

That would depend on match ups and how small we went. If we played a whole game with just one of them playing at a time, they could still get 24 minutes each that game. That happens to players now and they still average 30 + minutes.

They could each play 20-24 minutes alone, and 12-15 together and both average somewhere between 32-39 minutes. If they only played together 12 minutes a game, (one quarter) they could still average 30 + minutes a game.

As for small ball I don't think we would always be at a disadvantage when a team went small against us. Sometimes going small would get the other team killed, it would depend on matchups.

It might not be feasible, I don't know enough to even guess if it would work, but if it did work it would give other teams big problems. I know Roy is not very fast laterally, but I have no idea about Perk. My thinking is if they are both good enough to start then they could probably play some together, especially in a high/low post setup.

Lance George
11-22-2010, 04:18 AM
Landry's one-dimensionality worries me. He can score and...

I like Chandler as a rebounder and a solid defender. I just can't see him playing PF next to Roy and a long-term backup center, while needed, isn't the top of my wish list. His recent injuries are also a factor.

I don't see L.A. and New Orleans letting Odom and West walk.

Battier doesn't seem that good anymore to me. He's 32, so I doubt that it's a fluke.

I like Jason Richardson. He'll be 30, but he's still as productive as he was at 25. He'd be a big upgrade as the starting SG while George is groomed to be his (hopeful) successor.

If Caron Butler could return to his All-Star form of two years ago he'd be a good pickup. I'm skeptical.

Jeff Green's young and has proven he can be a productive player on a winning team. He's versatile as well. I don't like him as our starting PF and he's not starting at SF with Danny here, but I think he'd make an excellent 25-30 mpg backup at both forward spots.

I like DeAndre Jordan as well. Not as a primary target, but an interesting young big man with great size and athleticism who could be groomed as a rebounder/defender to compliment Roy.

Carmelo Anthony... HA! Yeah right. :laugh:

Joel Przybilla is old and injury prone.

I like Samuel Dalembert for the right price. An excellent backup big man who could possibly play some PF next to Roy.

kester99
11-22-2010, 04:46 AM
Three PFs...McBob, Tyler, Landry...why not? But no one mentioned in here is the missing piece that takes us over the top to contender status. We need four bodies for 2011-12, if we keep Josh. Four good ones, but not all-stars, and we compete. To get to contender status...?

By trade, or somehow, we need a Carmelo level acquisition. Someone besides Melo would be good. Not a big Carnmelo fan myself.

cinotimz
11-22-2010, 05:10 AM
I think they could make a devastating Twin Towers combination.

They could both start and get 30-35 mpg.

When they play together Perk would play the low post and Roy the high post.

Defensively would never work. And offensively it always sounds a lot better than it actually plays out. Theres very few instances of it ever working effectively for any extended periods of time if both bigs are a bit on the slow side and true centers. Thats just it, they are both true centers-something you dont see so much of. So the idea of having both on the same team to play together seems a bit flawed. Especially since they both will command top dollar for legit starting center material.

Pacerized
11-22-2010, 10:24 AM
When I think of twin towers I think of Olajuwon and Sampson. 2 starting caliper centers both starting together and dominating. I can't think of a recent attempt at this in the nba other then Duncan and Robinson if you want to think of Duncan as a 5 and I think that worked out well for the Spurs. It's just as possible today as it was then but there are really just not that many good centers in the NBA right now. I'd be willing to bet that in any case where this didn't work one or both of the starting centers were scrubs. Our next trade should be for a starting big man and I'd be just as happy with another starting level 5 such as Kaman, Gasul or Perkins as I would be with a starting level 4. If the opportunity is there to obtain another starting 5 then I say do it and let other teams worry about matching up to us instead of our matching up to them.



Defensively would never work. And offensively it always sounds a lot better than it actually plays out. Theres very few instances of it ever working effectively for any extended periods of time if both bigs are a bit on the slow side and true centers. Thats just it, they are both true centers-something you dont see so much of. So the idea of having both on the same team to play together seems a bit flawed. Especially since they both will command top dollar for legit starting center material.

pacergod2
11-22-2010, 11:38 AM
Here is my list of people we should focus on signing in the off-season:

Roy Hibbert (extension)
Brandon Rush (extension)
Josh McRoberts

That would be my focus. We still have to look out for the long-term. We can probably get Rush and McRoberts signed for fairly cheap. Signing all of them after their third years is a much better idea than waiting. Hibbert we need to extend. He will probably cost us around 8-10M per year under the current CBA, which I would adjust depending on the new CBA.

We still are looking at extensions for Price, Hansborough and Collison the following summer. And then extensions for George, Lance and Granger the summer thereafter. There will be significant cap space utilization for the players currently on our roster, so we can't go making too big of a splash and still retain them all.

Roster for next summer:

PG - Collison, Price
SG - Rush, George, Stephenson
SF - Granger, Posey, DJones
PF - McRoberts, Hansborough
C - Hibbert

Assuming we bring McRoberts back, we have to fill four roster spots, two of which will go to draft picks.

An interesting player outside of our team in my opinion would be Nene. He fills that vital PF/C role. He is big enough to play center at times and would be some beef next to Hibbert. I think he would benefit from better conditioning, which after his knee surgery would benefit the health of his knee while making him quicker. He blocks shots and is a solid rebounder. His rebounding numbers aren't spectacular, but often times Kenyon Martin is the more aggressive rebounder of the two. He and Hibbert would be very good rebounders as a tandem IMO.

Our rotation would start Hibbert and Nene, with Josh and Tyler filling in. I don't expect Foster or Solo back. I wouldn't be upset with bringing back Solo as an end of bench big for what he makes. Or even Jeff for a one-year veteran minimum. I would prefer Jeff as a coach though. I think he could be a very good coach one day.

nerveghost
11-22-2010, 11:57 AM
correct me if i'm wrong, but Hibbert and Rush are already extended.

I say No to Roberts unless they want to keep him as a 10 or 12th man. Keep Hansbro as a backup and sign a really good PF free agent.

pacergod2
11-22-2010, 12:12 PM
No, neither are "extended". They are still on their current rookie deals and the timeframe to be able to sign them to an early extensions begins 7/7/2011 and ends I believe 10/31/2011. They can only be extended the summer prior to their fourth year on their rookie deal. Typically teams will do this because they either have an All-Star caliber player they will sign regardless of money or they think they can get good young talent at a discount early rather than waiting until they are worth more.

I believe that our roster as it stands going forward, and how Bird described "10 core players", is right where we want to be. We are stong throughout our guard rotation with young guys. Granger/George/Rush and Collison/Price makes me feel rather comfortable. I just think we need one piece to add to our front court after Hibbert and before Josh/Hansborough. Even if we bring in another young guy to compete for the starting job, I think we have the core for a great team.

ballism
11-22-2010, 12:16 PM
Hibbert and Rush are in rookie deals till 2012...

Sookie
11-22-2010, 01:46 PM
No, neither are "extended". They are still on their current rookie deals and the timeframe to be able to sign them to an early extensions begins 7/7/2011 and ends I believe 10/31/2011. They can only be extended the summer prior to their fourth year on their rookie deal. Typically teams will do this because they either have an All-Star caliber player they will sign regardless of money or they think they can get good young talent at a discount early rather than waiting until they are worth more.

I believe that our roster as it stands going forward, and how Bird described "10 core players", is right where we want to be. We are stong throughout our guard rotation with young guys. Granger/George/Rush and Collison/Price makes me feel rather comfortable. I just think we need one piece to add to our front court after Hibbert and before Josh/Hansborough. Even if we bring in another young guy to compete for the starting job, I think we have the core for a great team.

I agree, I think we need a backup for Hibbert, and a starting PF. (only because I don't expect Foster to be healthy/play for many more years..)

Although, I think it's plenty possibly to have a
Hibbert/Josh
PF/Hans

Rotation..

With the guard rotation, my only concern is Rush and his consistency. I think Paul George will eventually be our starting SG..and a rather good one (great one..possibly All Star Level one) My question is..how long will it take him to get there, and can Brandon hold down the starting SG position until then.

That's one of the reasons why I thought a trade for Rip wouldn't be that bad. Having a wing rotation of Rip/Granger/Brandon/George, for three years would give George time to grow, and give us a veteran, that's actually pretty good. (Personally, I just think he needs a new place to play..and playing in a system with a lot of ball movement would help him a lot.)

Of course, if Brandon was consistent (I don't mean offensively, I mean with his effort) I'd be fine with just giving him the starting spot until George is ready. I think that's something though, that we should be paying attention to, at the trade deadline.

cdash
11-22-2010, 01:51 PM
I prefer the option of maintaining cap flexibility as opposed to overpaying any free agent from this class. Make a Michael Beasley or Eric Maynor sort of trade, or at least leave that sort of option open. I fear we are going to spend a lot of money on Carl Landry, which doesn't get me very excited.

ballism
11-22-2010, 01:55 PM
I prefer the option of maintaining cap flexibility as opposed to overpaying any free agent from this class. Make a Michael Beasley or Eric Maynor sort of trade, or at least leave that sort of option open. I fear we are going to spend a lot of money on Carl Landry, which doesn't get me very excited.

Agreed, big money on Carl Landry is what I'd be afraid off too. Unless it's Zach Randolph, David West, J-Rich, just keep the cap and add role players.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 01:56 PM
I like Rip but have heard he's gone down hill of recent. Has he lost a step? If so, would resigning Dun be a better option? Or sticking with Dahntay with a new coach and system?

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 02:00 PM
I like Rip but have heard he's gone down hill of recent. Has he lost a step? If so, would resigning Dun be a better option? Or sticking with Dahntay with a new coach and system?

paul /Dahntay/lance rip is no where near being worth 12 mill at his age and mike ugg. Wilson Chanler woulnt be bad but he is a RFA and will get lots of money.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 02:04 PM
Our rotation would start Hibbert and Nene, with Josh and Tyler filling in. I don't expect Foster or Solo back. I wouldn't be upset with bringing back Solo as an end of bench big for what he makes. Or even Jeff for a one-year veteran minimum. I would prefer Jeff as a coach though. I think he could be a very good coach one day.

Why do you think Jeff would make a good coach?

Nene seems to injury prone to me.

I think Jeff will be back at the vet minimum. He was quoted earlier this year as saying he still wants to play for a couple more years, and he's also said he likes it here and doesn't want to leave. I'd rather have him than Solo right now.

If Josh or Tyler don't take ownership of the power forward position, I look for a PF to be brought in. In that case one of them will probably get traded.

As is, I think a couple of young guys that are looked at as core pieces right now will get traded within the next two years. Right now I'd guess the most likely core pieces to be traded are Lance, Rush, and Josh, but perceptions can change over night.

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 02:05 PM
An interesting player outside of our team in my opinion would be Nene. He fills that vital PF/C role. He is big enough to play center at times and would be some beef next to Hibbert. I think he would benefit from better conditioning, which after his knee surgery would benefit the health of his knee while making him quicker. He blocks shots and is a solid rebounder. His rebounding numbers aren't spectacular, but often times Kenyon Martin is the more aggressive rebounder of the two. He and Hibbert would be very good rebounders as a tandem IMO.

Good call on Nene

With his injuries and his former contract I doubt the bidding will be that high. I think we could swoop in and snag him away from Denver, but not sure if he is really that much of a decision maker ,though

I do agree with your approach, lets not act like a young kid with Christmas money and spend just to spend. Rather than overpay a medicore FA, I would rather we just save the money and wait for a better FA class (like 2012, 2013)

We dont need anymore overpaid role players here

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 02:08 PM
Good call on Nene

With his injuries and his former contract I doubt the bidding will be that high. I think we could swoop in and snag him away from Denver, but not sure if he is really that much of a decision maker ,though

I do agree with your approach, lets not act like a young kid with Christmas money and spend just to spend. Rather than overpay a medicore FA, I would rather we just save the money and wait for a better FA class (like 2012, 2013)

We dont need anymore overpaid role players here

Big men always get overpaid i exspect 10 million over 4 yrs

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 02:09 PM
Landry's eFG% has dropped since joining Sacramento. He was very good with Houston though. He was in a 3 player FC rotation with Scola and Yao.

If Scola is making $7.75 million, how much should Landry expect?

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 02:10 PM
Landry's eFG% has dropped since joining Sacramento. He was very good with Houston though. He was in a 3 player FC rotation with Scola and Yao.

If Scola is making $7.75 million, how much should Landry expect?

drew gooden type deal 5 yrs 32

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 02:11 PM
Big men always get overpaid i exspect 10 million over 4 yrs

Yes they do but

I dont Nene can command anywhere near 10 million per on the open market

I could be wrong though, but I see him getting maybe 6-7 million for 2 years

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 02:11 PM
Good call on Nene

With his injuries and his former contract I doubt the bidding will be that high. I think we could swoop in and snag him away from Denver, but not sure if he is really that much of a decision maker ,though

I do agree with your approach, lets not act like a young kid with Christmas money and spend just to spend. Rather than overpay a medicore FA, I would rather we just save the money and wait for a better FA class (like 2012, 2013)

We dont need anymore overpaid role players here

I don't think we need to worry about over paying if Bird comes back. He seems to want good deals, but will overpay his own players a bit. I like it that way.

ballism
11-22-2010, 02:12 PM
Landry's eFG% has dropped since joining Sacramento. He was very good with Houston though. He was in a 3 player FC rotation with Scola and Yao.

If Scola is making $7.75 million, how much should Landry expect?

That's Scola's 1st year, his average is closer to 9.5 mil.
But Scola is a much better player than Landry. I have no idea how much he should expect, but I wouldn't pay him over 5 mil a year.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 02:12 PM
drew gooden type deal 5 yrs 32

That would seem very reasonable. He and Tyler could battle it out for the starting spot, and if Landry gets pushed to the bench, then we've got a tremendous FC spark off the bench, who is used to that role. However, I wouldn't expect a FC tandem of Landry and Tyler to work well with the second unit... The previous mention of Foster resigning could then work well.

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 02:12 PM
I don't think we need to worry about over paying if Bird comes back. He seems to want good deals, but will overpay his own players a bit. I like it that way.

I agree, in fact , I think Birds strongest trait by far has been patience

We got Collison without giving up the number 10 pick in the draft due to Bird/Morway paitence

ballism
11-22-2010, 02:16 PM
Yes they do but

I dont Nene can command anywhere near 10 million per on the open market

I could be wrong though, but I see him getting maybe 6-7 million for 2 years

Considering he's been quite healthy the last two years, and he's only 28, I think 4 years at 10 mil would be more realistic. It will all depend on new CBA of course.

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 02:18 PM
Considering he's been quite healthy the last two years, and he's only 28, I think 4 years at 10 mil would be more realistic. It will all depend on new CBA of course.

Yeah so much depends on the CBA

Anyone know what his number were?

ballism
11-22-2010, 02:19 PM
Yeah so much depends on the CBA

Anyone know what his number were?

around 11 mil on average, if you mean the salary.

90'sNBARocked
11-22-2010, 02:24 PM
around 11 mil on average, if you mean the salary.

I meant like his career or recent seasons points and rebounds per game

I think, unfortuanltely since his recovery from cancer, his numbers have dropped

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 02:27 PM
With the uncertainty of the new CBA, Nene might not opt out of his $11.6 million ETO, so I'm not even sure Nene will be available.

That said, I see Denver keeping him.

vnzla81
11-22-2010, 02:27 PM
Put me in for the No on Landry, he is too small, if we expect to win anything he is just not the guy.

From the free agents next year I would like Nene, Tchandler, not sure about David West he is over the hill(Ebrand 2?)and not to ZR.

I rather make a trade for a player, Varejao,kaman,iguadola,JRich.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 02:38 PM
Varejao can't spread the floor because he can't shoot from midrange. Doesn't hit FTs. Pass.

Randolph: Off-court issues, conditioning concerns. PAss.

Chandler won't be available and has injury issues.

West intrigues me. Looks like a better rebounding and FT shooting version of Landry. PO of $7.5 million and would be looking for more.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 02:48 PM
Yes they do but

I dont Nene can command anywhere near 10 million per on the open market

I could be wrong though, but I see him getting maybe 6-7 million for 2 years

a ave center in the NBA makes 7 mill he is above ave. I mean Darko just got 5 mill per and Brenden Haywood just got 5 yrs 55 million and nene is a better player and younger. He will get 10 million per yr. A lot of teams will have money to blow and will over pay for him. I wouldnt mind us getting him. We need to sign some FA before we have to resign DC and Roy and B rush we have there bird rights so we can go over the cap to sign them. Or we will be stuck without anyone. So maybe no one this yr but next yr we make a splash with some signings.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 02:50 PM
Varejao can't spread the floor because he can't shoot from midrange. Doesn't hit FTs. Pass.Randolph: Off-court issues, conditioning concerns. PAss.

Chandler won't be available and has injury issues.

West intrigues me. Looks like a better rebounding and FT shooting version of Landry. PO of $7.5 million and would be looking for more.

Im sry but i want a banger down low not a mid range jump shooter ala Chris Bosh. We need a banger to complement Roy.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 02:54 PM
Im sry but i want a banger down low not a mid range jump shooter ala Chris Bosh. We need a banger to complement Roy.

What he said.

I Love P
11-22-2010, 02:59 PM
How much money will we have this summer? Where do we stand with the rest of the NBA and their money?

ballism
11-22-2010, 02:59 PM
Im sry but i want a banger down low not a mid range jump shooter ala Chris Bosh. We need a banger to complement Roy.

I think we need a banger with some sort of offense. We've already seen this year what happens to Roy when PFs can't hit a jumper. He just gets double teamed and pushed out.

That said, I like Varejao, he does have offense even if very limited. But he's no McRob, like people seem to think.

Personally, I love how Zach Randolph plays. I think he'd be great on this team - or on almost any team for that matter. His strength based game would match with Hibbert perfectly. Saying he has 'offcourt issues' is nothing new of course, in fact, it's sort of outdated. His behavior and locker room presense have been stellar for 1.5 years now. People do mature. There's always a risk, but I think he's just the best option available for this team this off season.

kester99
11-22-2010, 03:04 PM
How much money will we have this summer? Where do we stand with the rest of the NBA and their money?

We have about 34.8 million committed to 10 players for 2011-12. How much we have to play with to get the other 5 depends on the salary cap for next year. If you throw in McRoberts, and a couple of draftee contracts, we should still have substantial sums to share out for a couple of strong players.

ballism
11-22-2010, 03:05 PM
How much money will we have this summer? Where do we stand with the rest of the NBA and their money?

No answer to that till new CBA.
If we assume the cap stays the same as this year (not likely) - 58 mil - then we have around 24 mil. Which is among the best cap situations in the league.

We will probably extend Hibbert next October, so you have to take some 10 mil off that amount. Depending on new CBA, that should still be enough to sign one of the top available free agents, like David West or Zach Randolph.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 03:05 PM
I think we need a banger with some sort of offense. We've already seen this year what happens to Roy when PFs can't hit a jumper. He just gets double teamed and pushed out.




I agree with this part of your statement. You need a guy to be able to hit the 15-17 footer to open space for Roy in the low block.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 03:08 PM
No answer to that till new CBA.
If we assume the cap stays the same as this year (not likely) - 58 mil - then we have around 24 mil. Which is among the best cap situations in the league.

We will probably extend Hibbert next October, so you have to take some 10 mil off that amount. Depending on new CBA, that should still be enough to sign one of the top available free agents, like David West or Zach Randolph.

does 24 million count Tinsley who comes off the books this yr.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 03:08 PM
No answer to that till new CBA.
If we assume the cap stays the same as this year (not likely) - 58 mil - then we have around 24 mil. Which is among the best cap situations in the league.

We will probably extend Hibbert next October, so you have to take some 10 mil off that amount. Depending on new CBA, that should still be enough to sign one of the top available free agents, like David West or Zach Randolph.


Extending Roy would take money off the following year's available space, when Posey comes off the books. It would be interesting to speculate as to whether DJones picks up his PO that following year or expects more than $2.5 mil on the FA market.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 03:09 PM
I agree with this part of your statement. You need a guy to be able to hit the 15-17 footer to open space for Roy in the low block.

or a banger and let hibbert play high post.

ballism
11-22-2010, 03:09 PM
does 24 million count Tinsley who comes off the books this yr.

yes. but again, that's 24 mil when we consider this year's cap (58 mil). With new CBA, it's almost certain to be different.

I Love P
11-22-2010, 03:16 PM
Extending Roy would take money off the following year's available space, when Posey comes off the books. It would be interesting to speculate as to whether DJones picks up his PO that following year or expects more than $2.5 mil on the FA market.

I would pick it up, ride the bench and be a huge fan. That would be like one of us sitting on the bench every game and getting paid millions to cheer. Sounds like an okay job to me.

ballism
11-22-2010, 03:17 PM
Extending Roy would take money off the following year's available space, when Posey comes off the books. It would be interesting to speculate as to whether DJones picks up his PO that following year or expects more than $2.5 mil on the FA market.

His salary won't count to cap right away, but we probably have to wait and see how new CBA treats it.
I mean, if we will have hard cap, it's fair to assume we won't be able to spend all our cap, then resign Hibbert into 'future cap' same summer, and then pick up Collison / George / Hansbrough options next year while being over cap.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 03:57 PM
or a banger and let hibbert play high post.

I'd rather have my cake and eat it too: a banger who can hit the outside shot.

We might already have that in Tyler. :laugh:

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 04:00 PM
I would pick it up, ride the bench and be a huge fan. That would be like one of us sitting on the bench every game and getting paid millions to cheer. Sounds like an okay job to me.


Probably depends on the CBA and whether he and his agent are thinking of setting up the next deal. He had some good use in Denver and think he might command more. We'll see.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 04:43 PM
I'd rather have my cake and eat it too: a banger who can hit the outside shot.

We might already have that in Tyler. :laugh:

when i say banger i mean i guy that is like nene or kendrick perkins not tyler. I like him a lot but i see him as the backup 4 and i really good backup who can score and be an energy guy.

CableKC
11-22-2010, 05:41 PM
The way that I look at it.....we need to look into addressing 4 positions of need during the 2011-2012 Offseason through FA/Trade and with our 1st and 2nd Round 2011-2012 Draft pick. We need to get the following:

Starting Quality SG - Unless PG steps up SIGNIFICANTLY and convinces the FO that he's the Starting SG of the future....which I am not convinced of YET despite what some want to believe ( yes, IMHO....I believe that he'll turn out to be more of a SF that can do a decent job of pretending to be a SG ). My best Option to fill this spot is Caron Butler. Most everyone has been focusing on signing a PF....but one area that I think we have a much better chance of upgrading our Starting SG spot at a reasonable cost. I'd look to try to make a run for Caron Butler. He's going to be 31 years old by the time he signs a new contract and I think can fill in as a decent "Robin" to Granger's best impression of "Batman". Short of trying to acquire Iggy...which would be a long shot and likely high cost......given other options like JRich ( who is on the downside of his career ).....I don't think that Caron will command a "Granger-level" Contract and could be had for $8-9+ mil multi-year contract.

Starting Quality PF - IMHO....I'd like to believe that Hansbrough is going to be betters suited to be a solid 1st Big Man off the bench or 1st PF off the bench...but not Starting material. As for McBob being "that guy".....as we are seeing now...he's much better to play next to or behind Hansbrough ( thinking long-term ) on a Playoff Caliber Team. I'm not entirely sold on David West nor Landry as a good fit next to Hibbert....so I don't know how we can really upgrade that position through FA....as some have suggested....we may need to upgrade through a Trade.

Backup PG ( either to backup DC or AJ ) - IMHO...AJ can do a solid job as a backup to DC...if TPTB don't think that he's up to the task....then we'd need to get a very solid backup PG. Options for Backup PGs? As this will likely be a 3rd String PG...I have no clue.

Backup PF/C - As mentioned above...I think that McBob is much better suited to be a rotational PF/C rather then the 1st Big Man off the bench. I'd like to resign McBob and then look for a better Big Man rather and then push McBob down to fill the role that Solo fills now...a 4th/5th rotational PF/C. But another Foster-like Player that I think could be had and could fill the role that McBob is doing now is Nick Collison. I think that he'd do a good job filling the void that Foster is going to vacate and could be a decent PF/C to fill out the rotation BEHIND Hibbert and whatever Starting PF that we look into acquiring.

Will Galen
11-22-2010, 05:58 PM
Most everyone has been focusing on signing a PF....but one area that I think we have a much better chance of upgrading our Starting SG spot. I'd look to try to make a run for Caron Butler.

He's going to be 31 years old by the time he signs a new contract and I think can fill in as a decent "Robin" to Granger's best impression of "Batman". Short of trying to acquire Iggy...which would be a long shot and likely high cost......given other options like JRich ( who is on the downside of his career ).....I don't think that Caron will command a "Granger-level" Contract and could be had for $8-9+ mil multi-year contract.

As for PF....I'm not entirely sold on David West nor Landry....so I don't know how we can really upgrade that position through FA....as some have suggested....we may need to upgrade through a Trade.


Caron Butler is a Danny sized forward.

I think upgrades are more likely though trades. Our first shot at that will come around the trade deadline since we have expirings, and young players with potential. It will depend on who gets shopped, because we have a patient front office.

cdash
11-22-2010, 07:06 PM
Personally, I love how Zach Randolph plays. I think he'd be great on this team - or on almost any team for that matter. His strength based game would match with Hibbert perfectly. Saying he has 'offcourt issues' is nothing new of course, in fact, it's sort of outdated. His behavior and locker room presense have been stellar for 1.5 years now. People do mature. There's always a risk, but I think he's just the best option available for this team this off season.

I've seen you mention this a few times now. At first I scoffed at the idea. Randolph has a murky history with chemistry issues and off the court nonsense that wouldn't fit into the culture our front office is trying to create. For that reason, I don't think he is a terribly realistic option. Off the court issues aside, he would be a great addition to our team. He can score and rebound and bang down low. He fills a huge need at the 4 and on paper a Hibbert-Randolph-Granger-whoever-Collison lineup looks intriging. I'm not a cap expert and am too lazy to look it up, but do we have the money to pull off a midseason trade for Iguodala with our expirings/George as the centerpieces and sign Randolph to a reasonably similar deal he has now in the offseason? Because that would be a really fun lineup on paper.

cordobes
11-22-2010, 07:46 PM
As for small ball I don't think we would always be at a disadvantage when a team went small against us. Sometimes going small would get the other team killed, it would depend on matchups.

It might not be feasible, I don't know enough to even guess if it would work, but if it did work it would give other teams big problems. I know Roy is not very fast laterally, but I have no idea about Perk. My thinking is if they are both good enough to start then they could probably play some together, especially in a high/low post setup.

Having a size advantage is not enough to create a mismatch in your favour. You need the offensive skills to take advantage of the difference in size.

In my view, Hibbert + Perkins wouldn't work offensively because Perkins is very limited there. He's a guy who can finish stuff at the rim. He can't create his own shot. His jumper is shaky. He's a decent passer but he doesn't have great hands. But he can't create his shot at a high enough level in the low block, not even if he has a size advantage.

If I'm coaching the other team, I'd just put 2 quick PFs on the floor. I'd kill that combo in transition, I'd take advantage of them on pick'n'pops and with a face-up/off-ball game for my bigs (defensively it'd be a disaster, too much slowness). Defensively... Hibbert on the high post can be defended by a PF - it's actually better to have a more mobile player there, to stop his drives and his jumpers. If Hibbert moves to the low post, I can simply double him with Perkins' man because if Perkins is 7ft out of the basket, I'm not guarding him anyway; if he's staying on the low block, it's really easy to double and recover. In the meanwhile, I don't have to worry about dribble penetration because the lane is clogged with those two guys and I don't have to worry about having my guards sinking inside to double.

ballism
11-22-2010, 07:55 PM
I've seen you mention this a few times now. At first I scoffed at the idea. Randolph has a murky history with chemistry issues and off the court nonsense that wouldn't fit into the culture our front office is trying to create. For that reason, I don't think he is a terribly realistic option. Off the court issues aside, he would be a great addition to our team. He can score and rebound and bang down low. He fills a huge need at the 4 and on paper a Hibbert-Randolph-Granger-whoever-Collison lineup looks intriging. I'm not a cap expert and am too lazy to look it up, but do we have the money to pull off a midseason trade for Iguodala with our expirings/George as the centerpieces and sign Randolph to a reasonably similar deal he has now in the offseason? Because that would be a really fun lineup on paper.

There is a chance, but it's highly unlikely. Depends on the cap under the new CBA.
Iguodala's salary is 13.5 mil next year. So if the cap stayed the same, we would have under 10 mil cap space for a free agent. That's usually a bit too low for a Zach Randolph or David West type of player. As for Randolph's current deal, it was 6 years 84 mil - started at around 11 mil.

cordobes
11-22-2010, 07:55 PM
I couldn't care less about Randolph's off-court activities, but he's a high maintenance scorer who isn't very efficient for a big man and a very lousy defender. Plus, you just got rid of that awful Hibbert+Murphy combo... why double down on it? Another slow footed big man?

I'd pass on Dalembert for more or less the same reasons I wouldn't even consider Perkins.

That kind of player is good if you're thinking about moving Hibbert. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense, they won't play well together.

-------


Landry isn't good enough to be a reliable starter, IMO. BBJ, there's a correlation between Landry's rebounding and the minutes he played and games he started. The more minutes he plays and the more minutes he plays against starters, the less his rebounding rate is. He's a miserable rebounder for a big man + an average defender who suffers from his lack of size. You acquire Landry for a scoring threat off the bench as an undersized PF or a spot starter.

Btw, Hansbrough hasn't played basketball in a year, he missed his first off-season as a pro due to injury too. Won't he be at least as good as Landry in a year? I think he'll be a similar level of player quite soon. Right now the game is still too fast for him - normal when he played/practised so little basketball for such a long period - but once he gets in game shape and puts a Summer of work, he should be a decent role-player with good scoring ability, the kind of player Landry is.

Justin Tyme
11-22-2010, 08:04 PM
He was quoted earlier this year as saying he still wants to play for a couple more years, and he's also said he likes it here and doesn't want to leave.

If Josh or Tyler don't take ownership of the power forward position, I look for a PF to be brought in. In that case one of them will probably get traded.

As is, I think a couple of young guys that are looked at as core pieces right now will get traded within the next two years. Right now I'd guess the most likely core pieces to be traded are Lance, Rush, and Josh, but perceptions can change over night.



The last time Foster made a similar comment Bird gave him 12 plus mil. After last season of not playing at 6 mil, Foster ought to give the Pacers a freebie year to make it up. Like that would ever happen.

That's what I want now. A PF to be brought in with Hans being the b/u.

I can see all 3 being traded.

Justin Tyme
11-22-2010, 08:10 PM
I think we need a banger with some sort of offense. We've already seen this year what happens to Roy when PFs can't hit a jumper. He just gets double teamed and pushed out.

That said, I like Varejao, he does have offense even if very limited. But he's no McRob, like people seem to think.

Personally, I love how Zach Randolph plays. I think he'd be great on this team - or on almost any team for that matter. His strength based game would match with Hibbert perfectly. Saying he has 'offcourt issues' is nothing new of course, in fact, it's sort of outdated. His behavior and locker room presense have been stellar for 1.5 years now. People do mature. There's always a risk, but I think he's just the best option available for this team this off season.


His biggest knock, other than off court tripe, has been he doesn't play "D". Him playing with Hibby wouldn't be a strength. Hibby needs a PF that can play "D."

Justin Tyme
11-22-2010, 08:14 PM
I'd rather have my cake and eat it too: a banger who can hit the outside shot.

We might already have that in Tyler. :laugh:


McBob just doesn't meet the criteria of a banger, nor one that can hit an outside shot.

My be you are joking, right.

ballism
11-22-2010, 08:27 PM
I couldn't care less about Randolph's off-court activities, but he's a high maintenance scorer who isn't very efficient for a big man and a very lousy defender. Plus, you just got rid of that awful Hibbert+Murphy combo... why double down on it? Another slow footed big man?


The Grizzlies are just fine with their 'slow footed Murphy-Hibbert combo' in Gasol and Randolph btw. :p
I'd understand 'no-hops' or 'bad athlete', but 'slow footed' and Randolph? Come on. That man lives from his footwork. There's only a few big men in this league who can match him in that department. Or do you mean something else.
I also don't quite get the 'not efficient' part. How many PFs have really been more efficient than Randolph in Grizzlies?

Personally, I think the comparison between Zach and Troy offensively is quite poor. What I agree on is his defense, he has no chance of defending anyone with a midrange jumper. Nowitzki, or LaMarcus Aldridge of the Blazers come to mind. What he can do is bang with his man near the rim - and he does it better than anyone on this current Pacers team.

Is he a perfect fit? No, I'd prefer at least 5 other guys PFs whom we'll never get. Zach is just a good consolation prize.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 08:33 PM
McBob just doesn't meet the criteria of a banger, nor one that can hit an outside shot.

My be you are joking, right.

McBob is proving to be a defensive liability and very foul prone.

MyFavMartin
11-22-2010, 08:37 PM
Landry isn't good enough to be a reliable starter, IMO. BBJ, there's a correlation between Landry's rebounding and the minutes he played and games he started. The more minutes he plays and the more minutes he plays against starters, the less his rebounding rate is. He's a miserable rebounder for a big man + an average defender who suffers from his lack of size. You acquire Landry for a scoring threat off the bench as an undersized PF or a spot starter.

Btw, Hansbrough hasn't played basketball in a year, he missed his first off-season as a pro due to injury too. Won't he be at least as good as Landry in a year? I think he'll be a similar level of player quite soon. Right now the game is still too fast for him - normal when he played/practised so little basketball for such a long period - but once he gets in game shape and puts a Summer of work, he should be a decent role-player with good scoring ability, the kind of player Landry is.

Very good point and post.

ballism
11-22-2010, 08:40 PM
His biggest knock, other than off court tripe, has been he doesn't play "D". Him playing with Hibby wouldn't be a strength. Hibby needs a PF that can play "D."

I think defensively, you need someone who can bang around in the post on both sides of the court next to Hibbert. Zach does that. He uses his strength, pushes people around, but he won't jump and block shots. He looks quite good defending at C for Memphis imo. The problem with him defensively imo is that (a) you want a shot blocker next to him and (b) he's not effective against face-up and jump shooting big men.
Hibbert would solve the (a) part because he can block shots. Zach would help him with pushing people around. Offensively, they would also seem to fit. But the (b) part defensively, I agree, that's a problem. I don't know who would defend Chris Bosh, or Nowitzki on this team with Zach + Hibbert.

cordobes
11-22-2010, 08:41 PM
The Grizzlies are just fine with their 'slow footed Murphy-Hibbert combo' in Gasol and Randolph btw. :p
I'd understand 'no-hops' or 'bad athlete', but 'slow footed' and Randolph? Come on. That man lives from his footwork. There's only a few big men in this league who can match him in that department. Or do you mean something else.
I also don't quite get the 'not efficient' part. How many PFs have really been more efficient than Randolph in Grizzlies?

Personally, I think the comparison between Zach and Troy offensively is quite poor. What I agree on is his defense, he has no chance of defending anyone with a midrange jumper. Nowitzki, or LaMarcus Aldridge of the Blazers come to mind. What he can do is bang with his man near the rim - and he does it better than anyone on this current Pacers team.

Is he a perfect fit? No, I'd prefer at least 5 other guys PFs whom we'll never get. Zach is just a good consolation prize.

The Grizzlies were 25th in the league last season in eFG% allowed and this season they're 26th. They have been a below par defensive team and they'll always be until they breal up that Gasol/Randolph combo (and move Mayo for a proper 2 guard).

He has great foot-work offensively - so does Shaq. Or Yao Ming. Doesn't mean he's quick moving his feet defensively. And that's the kind of player you want to put next to Hibbert, a quick, fast, athletic defender. Very often Memphis put Gasol defending the most dangerous opponent big - something you wouldn't be able to do with Hibbert.

Randolph's TS% since he's with the Grizzlies has been 54%. It's not as bad as it used to be, but nothing to write home about for a big. Last season there were 48 bigs who scored at least 500 points and had a higher TS%. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=80&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ts_pct)

I didn't compare Murphy and Randolph offensively. I like Randolph's game offensively well enough, especially now that he improved his shot-selection a bit. Randolph+Hibbert would be similar to Randolph+Gasol.

vnzla81
11-22-2010, 08:43 PM
I'm pretty sure that if you have a race between Hibbert and Randolph, Hibbert would beat him every time, Zach is one of the slowest guys in the NBA, he is maybe as slow as Ilgauskas and we don't need that, he would also take the ball away from Roy and we don't want that either.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 08:44 PM
I'd rather have my cake and eat it too: a banger who can hit the outside shot.

We might already have that in Tyler. :laugh:

Tyler is no banger.

cordobes
11-22-2010, 08:45 PM
]I think defensively, you need someone who can bang around in the post on both sides of the court next to Hibbert. [/B]Zach does that. He uses his strength, pushes people around, but he won't jump and block shots. He looks quite good defending at C for Memphis imo. The problem with him defensively imo is that (a) you want a shot blocker next to him and (b) he's not effective against face-up and jump shooting big men.
Hibbert would solve the (a) part because he can block shots. Zach would help him with pushing people around. Offensively, they would also seem to fit. But the (b) part defensively, I agree, that's a problem. I don't know who would defend Chris Bosh, or Nowitzki on this team with Zach + Hibbert.

Hibbert is a pure center and a relatively slow player, even with his new body.

In my perspective, you need a Kevin Garnett type of player - a guy who can defend more mobile players, hedge on the pick'n'roll, guys like Brad Miller that can pop'n'shoot, the transition - not a banger. An Anderson Varej„o type of player. Varejao would fit spectacularly next to Hibbert.

ballism
11-22-2010, 09:10 PM
The Grizzlies were 25th in the league last season in eFG% allowed and this season they're 26th. They have been a below par defensive team and they'll always be until they breal up that Gasol/Randolph combo (and move Mayo for a proper 2 guard).

He has great foot-work offensively - so does Shaq. Or Yao Ming. Doesn't mean he's quick moving his feet defensively. And that's the kind of player you want to put next to Hibbert, a quick, fast, athletic defender. Very often Memphis put Gasol defending the most dangerous opponent big - something you wouldn't be able to do with Hibbert.

Randolph's TS% since he's with the Grizzlies has been 54%. It's not as bad as it used to be, but nothing to write home about for a big. Last season there were 48 bigs who scored at least 500 points and had a higher TS%. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=80&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ts_pct)

I didn't compare Murphy and Randolph offensively. I like Randolph's game offensively well enough, especially now that he improved his shot-selection a bit. Randolph+Hibbert would be similar to Randolph+Gasol.

It's quite hard to disprove Randolph's efficiency based on TS% alone. It doesn't account for offensive putbacks. He doesn't draw many fouls, but is he really a less efficient big than Sam Dalembert, who's no.25 on the list?

I'm not against Varejao, considering his rather fair salary. If we could get him, I'm for it. That would probably be quite costly though, I can't imagine Cleveland giving him away for expirings. That said, I think it would be an interesting pairing next to Hibbert.

I also think that at this point, we need talent more than anything. He has drawbacks, but if we could get Zach for around 10-11 mil per, I'd take him in FA easily. For all Memphis issues defending shots, they have been among the better teams in rebounding and preventing second shots, and in large part that was due to Zach Randolph's contributions. I agree, there are some question marks when it comes to fit, but when you consider talent, he's one of the best available options.

vnzla81
11-22-2010, 09:14 PM
Hibbert is a pure center and a relatively slow player, even with his new body.

In my perspective, you need a Kevin Garnett type of player - a guy who can defend more mobile players, hedge on the pick'n'roll, guys like Brad Miller that can pop'n'shoot, the transition - not a banger. An Anderson Varej„o type of player. Varejao would fit spectacularly next to Hibbert.

I been saying this forever

ballism
11-22-2010, 09:19 PM
I been saying this forever

I don't know who has been saying it longest, but a lot of people have :) I believe Varejao's been mentioned at least 3-4 times in this thread alone. Getting him is more of a problem though. How much would you be willing to give? I'm sure the price is messured in 1st round picks and young talent, otherwise he'd already be on one of the many contenders in need of size.

cordobes
11-22-2010, 09:29 PM
It's quite hard to disprove Randolph's efficiency based on TS% alone. It doesn't account for offensive putbacks. He doesn't draw many fouls, but is he really a less efficient big than Sam Dalembert, who's no.25 on the list?

Of course it accounts for offensive putbacks, it accounts for every point a player scores - 2 pt field goals (putbacks, jumpers, lay-ups, dunks or whatever), 3 pt field goals and free-throws made.

BringJackBack
11-22-2010, 09:31 PM
I don't know who has been saying it longest, but a lot of people have :) I believe Varejao's been mentioned at least 3-4 times in this thread alone. Getting him is more of a problem though. How much would you be willing to give? I'm sure the price is messured in 1st round picks and young talent, otherwise he'd already be on one of the many contenders in need of size.

Personally, while Varejao is obviously better, it might just be best to save all the cash and use a Varejao-lite at backup center. Then we can get a very good sixth man, a good power forward, and a decent-to-good backup center with potential.

ballism
11-22-2010, 09:36 PM
Of course it accounts for offensive putbacks, it accounts for every point a player scores - 2 pt field goals (putbacks, jumpers, lay-ups, dunks or whatever), 3 pt field goals and free-throws made.

What I mean is it does not account for the very fact of an offensive putback. Lets say there's a player (A) who misses his shot 5 times, rebounds it all 5 times, and then puts it back a la Moses Malone on 6th time. And a player (B), who makes the shot on the first try. For all I care, they both made an equally efficient play and scored 2 points during one attack. But if all you use to judge efficiency is TS%, you come up with conclusion that player B is much more efficient. His TS% will be 100%, while player A's - 17%.

This is what I mean when I say that TS% does not equal offensive efficiency. Zach makes a living out of putbacks, thus using TS% does not do justice to him.

Ryan
11-23-2010, 12:00 AM
Perk will cost 7-8 mil a year. You really wanna spend that money on a Center when you already have one?

He is not a backup.

Smoothdave1
11-23-2010, 11:37 PM
I could see the Pacers having interest in Zach Randolph and Zach having interest in the Pacers. As some of you may know, Zach lives in Indy (Geist) during the summer and spends a great deal of time here in Indy. His Mom still lives in Marion and he still has a lot of friends and family connections here. I live literally 2 minutes away from Zach and see him all the time during the summer and I know he would love to play at home for the Pacers.

I could see Memphis opting not to resign him, especially since they gave Rudy Gay and Conley a ton of money within the past few months. They will also have to resign Gasol and Mayo in the next few years too. I could see the Pacers willing to offer a deal of 3 years/35-40 mil or 4 years/45-50 mil. Larry & Morway will want to keep some cap flexibility for guys like Rush, DC, Roy, Tyler, etc. Therefore, I could see something like:

-- Jeff Foster retires
-- Resign Dunleavy for 3 years/10 million?
-- Resign Josh for 3 years/10 million?
-- Sign Zach to a 3-4 year deal for about 12 mil per season?
-- Sign a guy like Courtney Sims or Magnum Rolle from the NBDL to a deal
-- Try to find a team to take Dahntay

Pacers lineup:

DC, Price, Lance
Rush, Dunleavy, rookie
Granger, Posey, George
Z-Bo, Tyler, or a rookie?
Roy, Josh, Magnum

vnzla81
11-23-2010, 11:47 PM
Here are the reasons why the Pacers would never touch Randolph

http://crime.about.com/od/famousdiduno/ig/sports_mugshots/randolph_z.htm


In December 2003, professional basketball player Zach Randolph was stopped by Portland, Oregon police and charged with allegedly driving under the influence of marijuana.
Other legal problems in Randolph's past include a June 2006 incident when the Portland police stopped two cars for racing in a 20 mph speed zone. The police smelled marijuana, searched the cars and found two loaded weapons. Both cars were registered to Randolph and it was determined he had a permit for both guns.

ballism
11-24-2010, 12:49 AM
Here are the reasons why the Pacers would never touch Randolph

http://crime.about.com/od/famousdiduno/ig/sports_mugshots/randolph_z.htm

It's dubious, no doubt. I'm not sure Larry has it in him to take another risk either, no matter how small that risk seems to be considering Zach's behavior since he joined the Grizzlies.

wintermute
11-24-2010, 06:09 AM
I haven't seen his name mentioned yet, but the Bucks' Luc Mbah a Moute is a restricted free agent next year. Awesome defender, but with no offense to speak of. I imagine the Bucks would like to keep him. Still, if they end up trading Redd's expiring contract for longer salaries, they might be hard pressed to keep Mbah a Moute.