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BringJackBack
11-20-2010, 10:36 PM
I miss Darren Collison, I love Jeff Foster, I hate Mike Dunleavy, and I hate TJ Ford no matter how many big shots he hits because with Darren we would never be in this position.

All that said, I will never forget this game.

Grangerous
11-20-2010, 10:40 PM
yeah hate hate hate TJ he cost us a game today WOW! when will DC coming back??? we need him!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 10:41 PM
I'll go on record and say that was the best game the Pacers have played all season. Sure they have shot better against poor defense (so what) tonight they played hard, they rebounded, they defended

I'm very encouraged with how the Pacers played tonight - best defensive game from start to finish

NapTonius Monk
11-20-2010, 10:43 PM
How was this all TJ's fault? We missed a ton of open shots, shot horrible from 3 tonight, missed several free throws. Hard to say one guy made us lose. Jeff was on his defensive game tonight. Sure wish we had that from the starting 4 spot.

Grangerous
11-20-2010, 10:43 PM
I'll go on record and say that was the best game the Pacers have played all season. Sure they have shot better against poor defense (so what) tonight they played hard, they rebounded, they defended

I'm very encouraged with how the Pacers played tonight - best defensive game from start to finish

yep i am going to agree with you but why why why why TJ!?!? he surely cost us a game tonight

BringJackBack
11-20-2010, 10:45 PM
I'll go on record and say that was the best game the Pacers have played all season. Sure they have shot better against poor defense (so what) tonight they played hard, they rebounded, they defended

I'm very encouraged with how the Pacers played tonight - best defensive game from start to finish

Yes, but it would have been icing on the cake if Jameer Nelson would have never hit that shot.

It would also be nice if Rush got more minutes than Mike and Darren was available. We might have won, but theres no point in saying what ifs.

Mr_Smith
11-20-2010, 10:45 PM
Lets get off the T.J. hate and get ON the Danny Granger disappearing acts!. T.J. hit some big shots out there tonight.

pacers101
11-20-2010, 10:45 PM
Granger needs to step up in close games. Good franchise players find a way to make enough plays to help their team win.
When we hit that 3 to go up 1 with at the end did nobody else want to foul Howard?
I really think it was the best play to make. He had played the whole second half. Looked exhausted. Had just gone 1-2 from the line. I highly doubt he makes both in that case. If he does we are only down 1 and get the ball back with plenty of time.
I guess I just don't trust our defense or the refs especially the way they were calling the game tonight.
Am I crazy for thinking we should have done this?

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 10:45 PM
I will continue to say that JOB is a terrible caoch and anyone who says otherwise has no sense what so ever.

I'll take that as a compliment then I guess. Great coach? No. Terrible coach? No

LG33
11-20-2010, 10:46 PM
I don't think our normal punching bags - T.J., JOB, or Posey - deserve credit for that loss. We just missed too many shots. To be one possession away from defeating the Magic without your starting point guard - that's a good thing. I'm not happy we lost, but I'm not pissed about the way we lost. More often than not, this Pacers team beats itself. Tonight, we got beat.

imawhat
11-20-2010, 10:46 PM
Almost won it. I'm glad to see our team battle again after a year of duds.

BringJackBack
11-20-2010, 10:46 PM
Lets get off the T.J. hate and get ON the Danny Granger disappearing acts!. T.J. hit some big shots out there tonight.

TJ didn't get double teamed and he didn't get put on defensive stoppers. Apples to oranges.

PaceBalls
11-20-2010, 10:46 PM
The boys gave all they had in this game, I loved the effort and I loved the D in the 4th. It was fun to watch even though I was really frustrated by the players Jim put on the court. Thing is, we could have won this game. There were alot of missed oppurtunities on offense. TJ was looking like the bad Jamaal Tinsley out there at times and Mike Dunleavy is terrible.. I would cheer if they cut him, let alone traded him for anyone not named Troy Murphy.

Credit to Jim for not playing Mike in the 4th except for the last play. Maybe Jim will realize we should have Mike be the 3rd wing off the bench now. I doubt it...

Jeff Foster is awesome, he is the perfect back up to Roy, it is a shame he is so old, they would have made such a great tandem back in Jeff's prime.

Jim needs to play Tyler alot more. I like JamesP and all, but for the love of the basketball gods, Tyler is a freakin beast and he needs to be getting 25mins+.

In the end this is another loss to Jim, he did have his guys playing hard which is always a good sign for the coach, but the rotations cost us this game... once again.

I think we are going to be freaking awesome next year (provided we get a good coach) and it looks like we will be decent this year, or at least better than I expected, in spite of Jim's horrible rotations.

imawhat
11-20-2010, 10:47 PM
C'mon, stop forcing Unclebuck to defend JOB. He has no choice.

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 10:47 PM
Lets get off the T.J. hate and get ON the Danny Granger disappearing acts!. T.J. hit some big shots out there tonight.

As I said in the game thread, the Magic double teamed Granger everytime in the last 3 or 4 minutes. They geaqred their defense to stop Danny as really good defensive teams will

Grangerous
11-20-2010, 10:48 PM
Lets get off the T.J. hate and get ON the Danny Granger disappearing acts!. T.J. hit some big shots out there tonight.

yeah but then tj keep taking shot and missed last 4 or 5? he aint clutch :mad:

imawhat
11-20-2010, 10:48 PM
I'm happy with the game Danny played tonight. Orlando focused their gameplan around Granger and he still found a way to impact the game.

BringJackBack
11-20-2010, 10:48 PM
Next we go into Miami so here comes 5-7. Let's bounce back after that to be .500 again.

Consistency. Our team has none. We are young, or our system relies on too many jumpers.

count55
11-20-2010, 10:49 PM
I will continue to say that JOB is a terrible caoch and anyone who says otherwise has no sense what so ever.

I say otherwise.

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 10:49 PM
As Croshere said after the game if the pacers play like this, they will win a lot of games

Sookie
11-20-2010, 10:49 PM
I don't think our normal punching bags - T.J., JOB, or Posey - deserve credit for that loss. We just missed too many shots. To be one possession away from defeating the Magic without your starting point guard - that's a good thing. I'm not happy we lost, but I'm not pissed about the way we lost. More often than not, this Pacers team beats itself. Tonight, we got beat.

TJ made some shots..but he also played pretty bad defense (except for a few times in the fourth) and made terrible (abysmal) decisions with the ball through out most of the night.

So for me, as often as people say "Darren is like TJ" no..no he's not. He's not a god awful decision maker.

Obrien didn't do anything he normally doesn't do.
Good adjustments, not really..
Weird rotations..yup..
over trust with the vet..mmhmm

But he wasn't any worse than normal (or better than normal) to me. It was just..what I expected. So I'm not going to blame him. And things like the foul at the end..that wasn't JOB's fault..that was Ford and Posey's fault (who were closest to the guy with the ball)

AesopRockOn
11-20-2010, 10:50 PM
Pietrus and the Magic help defenders played amazing defense on Danny tonight. We could have used Roy in the second half. Tough game.

Psycho T
11-20-2010, 10:51 PM
1. McBob finally looked like he was an NBA player. Played 15 minutes and thats about where it should be.

2. TJ Ford must be blind because he missed Hansbrough under the goal like 2 times for an easy bucket. Had a terrible game I thought.

3. Posey played 21 minutes but it took him 20 minutes to do anything and in the end it didnt even matter. All 6 shot attempts were from 3.

4. I wish Hibbert would stop having weak 2nd halves.

5. Jeff Foster played well.

6. Only 11 minutes for Hansbrough.. Played well on defense.

I hate this offense. It relies to much on the 3 point shot to win games. Soon as Posey entered the game they were running plays to try and get him shots.. What I dont understand is why not run some pick and pop with Hansbrough? He is just as likely to make the 15-17 footer than Posey is making the 3. If you cant shoot the 3 ( or not named Hibbert ) then you are an outcast on the offensive end.

The Pacers were 5 of 27 from 3..

BringJackBack
11-20-2010, 10:51 PM
Darren is coming back a game late.

rock747
11-20-2010, 10:51 PM
Lets get off the T.J. hate and get ON the Danny Granger disappearing acts!. T.J. hit some big shots out there tonight.

Have to agree with this, TJ came up bigger than Danny did. Danny has disapeared against the big time teams... we need Collison to play though. Pacers really can't afford injuries.

imawhat
11-20-2010, 10:51 PM
I'll also say this game wouldn't have been close if Dunleavy had been out there trying to chase down Orlando's perimeter shooters. I give O'Brien credit for going with Brandon down the stretch. That was one of the big differences.

LG33
11-20-2010, 10:51 PM
I believe Darren is more turnover prone that T.J., especially this year's T.J. I don't know, man. I thought Ford had a pretty solid defensive effort out there. I wasn't disappointed by his energy on either side of the court.

Gamble1
11-20-2010, 10:52 PM
Well you lose the ones you should lose and you win the ones you should win. If we do that we should be a .500 team and in the playoffs.

Personally I am glad Hibbert and Rush had a good night against a playoff team.

pacers101
11-20-2010, 10:52 PM
Uncle Buck:

We understand they double teamed Granger. The point here is that if he really is a franchise player he sould be able to make plays to help us win even if he is being double teamed. Make a nice pass to an open teammate. Create a foul. Do something! Too often he just dissapears or takes shots that are low percentage shots at the end of close games.
I love Danny but I just think we need to re-consider him being our franchise player. I just don't see it in him.

Dr. Hibbert
11-20-2010, 10:53 PM
Agree mostly on Granger. I know I'm beating a dead horse but if he's really a franchise player, he needs to step it up in close games, and he's just not doing that.

rock747
11-20-2010, 10:54 PM
Next we go into Miami so here comes 5-7. Let's bounce back after that to be .500 again.



Does anyone else feel that we match up against Miami more favorably than Orlando?

They have no interior D, which is good for Hibbert. We also have alot of wing players to throw at LBJ and Wade. Orlando is also a lot deeper of a team. Also, Granger seems to get up for games against Lebron.

BlueNGold
11-20-2010, 10:55 PM
I'll also say this game wouldn't have been close if Dunleavy had been out there trying to chase down Orlando's perimeter shooters. I give O'Brien credit for going with Brandon down the stretch. That was one of the big differences.

I also appreciate this. There are more things I agree with about how he is running things...than last year.

AesopRockOn
11-20-2010, 10:55 PM
I'm happy with the game Danny played tonight. Orlando focused their gameplan around Granger and he still found a way to impact the game.

His passing and unselfishness was terrific in the first half, but once the Magic focused on him in the second half, he really could do nothing except for on a couple of plays. That's a testament to the Magic's D.

To me, the thing that was lacking in the second half was simply Roy's presence on the floor. That said, Jeff played his butt off on Howard and the defensive glass. It's nearly impossible to offensive rebound against the Magic.

Blink
11-20-2010, 10:55 PM
Lets get off the T.J. hate and get ON the Danny Granger disappearing acts!. T.J. hit some big shots out there tonight.

Let's not. TJ is just not that good, and he dominates the ball. They were big shots because they were the ones he didn't miss.

Sookie
11-20-2010, 10:56 PM
Stop it with the Granger hate..really.

I've said this a few times.

Danny is not good at creating his own shot. So just giving him the ball and say "go" is not going to ever work.

So either we draw up a play for him..(aka..practice end of the game plays for him) or we give that job to someone else...

It has nothing to do with being a franchise player, and has everything to do with the fact that either the coach doesn't have a few set plays for him or his teammates don't execute to get him the ball in a position in which he can score. You can't keep asking Danny to do things he can't do.

Trophy
11-20-2010, 10:56 PM
DC has been missed.

It sounded like he's good to go, but they just wanted to keep him out one more game.

We need to come out like this against Miami and honestly, we can beat them if Brandon and Tyler are playing a bunch of minutes and everyone is defending very well.

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 10:56 PM
Uncle Buck:

We understand they double teamed Granger. The point here is that if he really is a franchise player he sould be able to make plays to help us win even if he is being double teamed. Make a nice pass to an open teammate. Create a foul. Do something! Too often he just dissapears or takes shots that are low percentage shots at the end of close games.
I love Danny but I just think we need to re-consider him being our franchise player. I just don't see it in him.

OK, he probably isn't a franchie player. But I was responding to the thought that danny didn't step up like he didnt even try.

One of my pet peeves is when so many disregards the oppoents defense and how that impacts our offense

pacers101
11-20-2010, 10:57 PM
Franchise players should be able to create their own shots at the end of games.

croz24
11-20-2010, 10:57 PM
sorry but hibbert is our most valuable player and the fact that he only took TWO shots the entire 2nd half after dominating the 1st half is entirely on job. job does this every game. hibbert will get on a roll and then you never hear from hibbert again. this offense HAS to be run through hibbert if the pacers wish to make the playoffs.

avoidingtheclowns
11-20-2010, 10:59 PM
sorry but hibbert is our most valuable player and the fact that he only took TWO shots the entire 2nd half after dominating the 1st half is entirely on job. job does this every game. hibbert will get on a roll and then you never hear from hibbert again. this offense HAS to be run through hibbert if the pacers wish to make the playoffs.

So the fact that he picked up quick fouls to start the 3rd and 4th had no bearing on his playing time?

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 10:59 PM
sorry but hibbert is our most valuable player and the fact that he only took TWO shots the entire 2nd half after dominating the 1st half is entirely on job. job does this every game. hibbert will get on a roll and then you never hear from hibbert again. this offense HAS to be run through hibbert if the pacers wish to make the playoffs.

Once again you have to consider the defense being played. Honestly though I missed part of the third, so I don;t know, but i assume the Magic's defense changed in the third quarter after roy had such a good first half

Trophy
11-20-2010, 10:59 PM
Stop it with the Granger hate..really.

I've said this a few times.

Danny is not good at creating his own shot. So just giving him the ball and say "go" is not going to ever work.

So either we draw up a play for him..(aka..practice end of the game plays for him) or we give that job to someone else...

It has nothing to do with being a franchise player, and has everything to do with the fact that either the coach doesn't have a few set plays for him or his teammates don't execute to get him the ball in a position in which he can score. You can't keep asking Danny to do things he can't do.

I seriously think people forget who they're talking about.

Danny hasn't had a game below 20 points in a while give him a break. This guy is a star and stars can't go out and have 20+ nights every night. He was trapped the whole entire second half and couldn't even get a shot up.

He deserves a lot of credit for his defense.

xBulletproof
11-20-2010, 11:00 PM
sorry but hibbert is our most valuable player and the fact that he only took TWO shots the entire 2nd half after dominating the 1st half is entirely on job. job does this every game. hibbert will get on a roll and then you never hear from hibbert again. this offense HAS to be run through hibbert if the pacers wish to make the playoffs.

No, this has to do with Hibberts stupid 5th foul he got pretending he got ran over by a midget trying to get a charge off the ball. Then tried to recover and block a Dwight Howard dunk.

Least intelligent play of the day, right there. That 5th foul planted him on the bench for most of the 2nd half.

rock747
11-20-2010, 11:01 PM
I seriously think people forget who they're talking about.

Danny hasn't had a game below 20 points in a while give him a break. This guy is a star and stars can't go out and have 20+ nights every night. He was trapped the whole entire second half and couldn't even get a shot up.

He deserves a lot of credit for his defense.

Actually, a star does go out there and give it every night. That's what makes them a star.

Gamble1
11-20-2010, 11:02 PM
Uncle Buck:

We understand they double teamed Granger. The point here is that if he really is a franchise player he sould be able to make plays to help us win even if he is being double teamed. Make a nice pass to an open teammate. Create a foul. Do something! Too often he just dissapears or takes shots that are low percentage shots at the end of close games.
I love Danny but I just think we need to re-consider him being our franchise player. I just don't see it in him.
Your franchise player is making 13 mill a year not the max. Recognize that he isn't a true franchise player and be glad your not paying him JO money when he is here.

Danny is paid what he is worth so stop thinking he is a freaking perennial all star because he isn't.

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 11:02 PM
No, this has to do with Hibberts stupid 5th foul he got pretending he got ran over by a midget trying to get a charge off the ball. Then tried to recover and block a Dwight Howard dunk.

Least intelligent play of the day, right there.

I AGREE 100%. That was a stupid foul, stupid play.

croz24
11-20-2010, 11:04 PM
So the fact that he picked up quick fouls to start the 3rd and 4th had no bearing on his playing time?

did i mention anything about his playing time? when hibbert was in the game, the pacers were not looking to get him involved in the 2nd half. 5 fouls or not, hibbert was not being fed the ball when he was in the game in the 2nd half.

PaceBalls
11-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Does anyone else feel that we match up against Miami more favorably than Orlando?

They have no interior D, which is good for Hibbert. We also have alot of wing players to throw at LBJ and Wade. Orlando is also a lot deeper of a team. Also, Granger seems to get up for games against Lebron.

We match up well in theory, but Jim will bench Hibbert to match up with Bosh and he will play Dunleavy on DWade for 31 minutes.

There will be much Jim hate after the Miami game. :borg:

PacerHound
11-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Just my opinion. James Posey is going to be getting more and more minutes at the expense of McRoberts and Hansbrough which is a trend that was already setting in before this game. McRoberts was around 15 minutes tonight and had a great game going (9 rebounds and 6 points on 3 of 6 shooting) and Tyler only got 11 minutes (just got 1 shot up). Posey got over 21 minutes. This is developing into a trend. The coach has a thing for the 3 point shooter and will go with him until the bitter end ala Murphy (and clearly we are a better team without Murphy than we were with him). Posey was 1 for 6 tonight all back of the 3 point line. I suspect that Collison will be playing less as well for it is just my opinion that the coach favors experience over development. I hate to see it but if you are a Pacer fan I think you just have to accept it. It would be great to be proven wrong and I sure hope I am. All this is only my opinion save for the stats which came from the NBA TV web site. Sure hope I am dead wrong.

Mr_Smith
11-20-2010, 11:05 PM
Uncle Buck:

We understand they double teamed Granger. The point here is that if he really is a franchise player he sould be able to make plays to help us win even if he is being double teamed. Make a nice pass to an open teammate. Create a foul. Do something! Too often he just dissapears or takes shots that are low percentage shots at the end of close games.
I love Danny but I just think we need to re-consider him being our franchise player. I just don't see it in him.

Thank you!!! At least somebody is on my side!!!

Trophy
11-20-2010, 11:05 PM
Actually, a star does go out there and give it every night. That's what makes them a star.

Not every game. That's almost impossible.

Danny defended very well and was defended. He was passing it more.

Danny did "give it" and did his best.

I'm not going to debate that Danny is not a star.

People must not be seeing what he's done in the last few games.

McKeyFan
11-20-2010, 11:06 PM
sorry but hibbert is our most valuable player and the fact that he only took TWO shots the entire 2nd half after dominating the 1st half is entirely on job. job does this every game. hibbert will get on a roll and then you never hear from hibbert again. this offense HAS to be run through hibbert if the pacers wish to make the playoffs.
I'm going to agree and disagree.

Agree in that Roy didn't get fed the ball in the second half. We NEED to run it through him.

Disagree in the sense that I'm pretty impressed with how JOB and the team IS force feeding Hibbert in the first half of games. Let's not take that for granted. There is a serious, deliberate attempt to run the offense through Roy. It's just that we haven't figured out how to execute when things ratchet up as the game gets more intense.

Gamble1
11-20-2010, 11:08 PM
Franchise players should be able to create their own shots at the end of games.
So who is the franchise player at Detriot or Cleveland or half the teams in the NBA.

I'll let you in on a secret. A franchise player doesn't equal unstoppable.

BringJackBack
11-20-2010, 11:08 PM
I think the worst part about this loss is that it is going to kill the morale on this board. And it will get worse and worse if this team snowballs. Trolls will come and make everything worse than it seems and that is somewhat upsetting.

If Jameer didn't get that And1 the whole morale on this board and opinions of the players would be 180 degrees different than they are now. Heck, I wouldn't be mad at TJ Ford if Jameer didn't hit that shot.

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 11:09 PM
Granger is a star player, but not a superstar. I only consider about 5 or 6 players right now as superstars

BlueNGold
11-20-2010, 11:09 PM
Danny was getting Lebron treatment....and Danny's not Lebron. It's no surprise they shut him down. I think Danny helps the team by drawing attention...and all the players, including Danny...need to learn how to move the ball.

Also, Rush and Price should have the back court locked up. They can both hit perimeter J's and are the best defensive players at their positions. I suppose I'd be fine with Collison at PG...but Price plays smart, savvy, veteran basketball. Dude plays like he's 30 years old. He's also not a runt like TJ and Darren. As for Rush, he's clearly our best SG. It's not even close.

PaceBalls
11-20-2010, 11:11 PM
I AGREE 100%. That was a stupid foul, stupid play.

It was his one bad moment in the game and he knew it as soon as it happened. It hurt us bad, but he had a great game up to that point and Jeff really stepped up to fill the void.

It is something that we will have to deal with if the team ever makes it to the playoffs. Roy will be priority #1 for the opponent to go at and he will have a hard time keeping out of foul trouble. Not saying we are going to make the playoffs... but Jeff will play a huge part in a series if we make it there.

Trophy
11-20-2010, 11:12 PM
We're playing more as a team. We can't have one guy (Danny) being expecting to score 30+ points every game anymore.

He's still the franchise player and his teammates are giving him some help and it's helping us be a much better team.

AesopRockOn
11-20-2010, 11:12 PM
did i mention anything about his playing time? when hibbert was in the game, the pacers were not looking to get him involved in the 2nd half. 5 fouls or not, hibbert was not being fed the ball when he was in the game in the 2nd half.

I'm not sure you watched the game. Roy went out with four fouls with 6:52 left in the 3rd. Up to that point in the third, he had missed two shots and fouled Howard twice.

He didn't return until the beginning of the fourth quarter. He fouled (stupidly, as we all agree) with 10:06 left and didn't return till about 3 or 4 minutes left. So he got a little more than 7 minutes in the second half until the end of the game. He played a poor second half and his absence along with the Magic's upped defense is what set the tone for the second half and ultimately assured them the win.

kester99
11-20-2010, 11:12 PM
We were 5-3 last year, and went 1-10 to get to 6-13. That was a bad stretch of opponents, and we are going into this year's version of that now.

Really, prepare yourself for the 8-12 record, or worse, that is coming. It won't be an indicator of how we finish the season.

jmoney2584
11-20-2010, 11:13 PM
Thank you!!! At least somebody is on my side!!!

We need a closer. Danny isn't that guy.

Not to say he isn't a really good player and his defense has been great...but he isn;t anything special down the stretch.

PaceBalls
11-20-2010, 11:13 PM
I think the worst part about this loss is that it is going to kill the morale on this board. And it will get worse and worse if this team snowballs. Trolls will come and make everything worse than it seems and that is somewhat upsetting.

If Jameer didn't get that And1 the whole morale on this board and opinions of the players would be 180 degrees different than they are now. Heck, I wouldn't be mad at TJ Ford if Jameer didn't hit that shot.

Hell, I have a higher morale now than before this game. I thought the boys played with a lot of heart. I am frustrated by Jim's rotations, but I applaud the effort.

McKeyFan
11-20-2010, 11:13 PM
I do like Posey in the game down the stretch. And it was nice to see him hit the three that put us ahead.

But I was really disappointed in the next three he shot where he was closely covered and five feet behind the line. Very poor shot selection with 30 seconds left down 2.

Gamble1
11-20-2010, 11:13 PM
Thank you!!! At least somebody is on my side!!!
That makes one.;)

BlueNGold
11-20-2010, 11:14 PM
I think it's killing JOb to show-case TJ. JOb knows Price can drain the perimeter shot and TJ kills spacing.

It flies in the face of Jim's philosophy to play TJ Ford, so I suspect this is a mandate from TPTB.

jmoney2584
11-20-2010, 11:18 PM
If Posey were used at his natural position he would be so much more effective. JOB can't play without a stretch four though and it kills us during stretches of the game.

vnzla81
11-20-2010, 11:19 PM
I do like Posey in the game down the stretch. And it was nice to see him hit the three that put us ahead.

But I was really disappointed in the next three he shot where he was closely covered and five feet behind the line. Very poor shot selection with 30 seconds left down 2.

That is the reason why I keep saying that Posey can win you but also lose you a game(not saying that it was his fault)

imawhat
11-20-2010, 11:20 PM
Posey's not fast enough to cover SFs. He gets in trouble just about any time he has to defend beyond the free throw line.

Day-V
11-20-2010, 11:21 PM
T.J. Ford, you ruined my evening at the Fieldhouse. Thanks a lot.

jmoney2584
11-20-2010, 11:22 PM
Posey's not fast enough to cover SFs. He gets in trouble just about any time he has to defend beyond the free throw line.

He's a smart defender though with good positioning. Sure he shouldn't be covering starting SFs but in a bench role his D is fine there. Playing him at the four makes us weak down low when he is forced to switch onto an even bigger player in the paint. Not his forte. He is effective in short bursts at the four to stretch, but JOB abuses this notion entirely.

BringJackBack
11-20-2010, 11:23 PM
T.J. Ford, you ruined my evening at the Fieldhouse. Thanks a lot.

We are a team that is ready to win. Mike and TJ are not. That simple.

I'm done trolling. But I needed to say that.

BlueNGold
11-20-2010, 11:23 PM
That is the reason why I keep saying that Posey can win you but also lose you a game(not saying that it was his fault)

He was 1-6 from the perimeter...but he's shooting 40% from three this year. He's a good backup and will be helpful to this team as it squeeks into the playoffs.

As for the suggestion that he play SF...that is ludicrous. He barely has the quickness to defend PF's.

Day-V
11-20-2010, 11:25 PM
We are a team that is ready to win. Mike and TJ are not. That simple.

I'm done trolling. But I needed to say that.

I don't know how many times I kept screaming at Dunleavy to guard his ****ing man. Is it really that hard of a friggin concept?

DonSwanson
11-20-2010, 11:25 PM
My takeaway:

Tough game to lose obviously, we came so close. Our struggle at the line was a key difference... Dwight Howard shot identical at the line as did our entire team. It's a make or miss league.

To those of you who don't like O'Brien... all fans may have disagreements on things like lineups and such, how the sausage is made in a sense. But the bottom line is that we almost upset the best defensive team in the NBA, one of the top 5 teams in the NBA. It's confounding how people will still blame the coach no matter what. Just like last season when we went into San Antonio and lost by a point without Granger, went into Boston and had the game even through 3 quarters without our best player and held a great Boston team to 38% shooting, how 2 years ago we went into L.A. and lost at the buzzer. It's unbelievable to me how this team has overachieved and has fought hard, yet many people think it happens in spite of O'Brien.

PaceBalls
11-20-2010, 11:26 PM
I think it's killing JOb to show-case TJ. JOb knows Price can drain the perimeter shot and TJ kills spacing.

It flies in the face of Jim's philosophy to play TJ Ford, so I suspect this is a mandate from TPTB.

I usually agree with you, but I think you are wrong about the showcasing theory and have been since the Murphy days. Jim honestly thinks the vets give him the best chance to win. He trusts JT more than AJ right now.

jmoney2584
11-20-2010, 11:34 PM
James Posey, regardless of that fact that he is a step slower, is effective in a backup role at SF because he does what Dunleavy is only capable of in myth...Posey plays GREAT team defense. Against Orlando I don't agree that you want JPose being your help defender on Howard. Against other teams...sure, he has quick hands...he can play PF..i guess, i don't like it..but i guess...just not Orlando. Bass, Gortat, Howard...much too big for Posey to be asked to guard or even switch to help out on, im sorry but its fact. He makes up for it with his ability to shoot from the perimeter sometimes, but Tyler would have been much more effective during the times when Posey was missing (most of the game). Im not dissing on him, his leadership is great and he is good for this team..but only in the right role which I feel changes depending on the matchups that game. Tyler could have gotten us some hustle points off offensive boards and played better post D during parts of the game where we needed him. Posey hit a big shot at the end no doubt and I dont fault him being in there when we needed the offense, but when we needed the D and stops through the third Tyler would have been outstanding...props to JOB for allowing Tyler to learn from the bench... sarcasm...

vnzla81
11-20-2010, 11:34 PM
As a dark sider(according to some here ;)) I'm not really to sad about this lost, in fact I was expecting us to get blowout, it was nice to see that they finally had a close game.

As many here know I don't like Jim(I want him gone yesterday) but his coaching was not that bad today(I'll give him a C ;)) his love for Dunleavy and Ford must be huge because there is not reason for those two to be playing that many minutes, Ford is a decent point guard when he is playing under 20min the same with Dunleavy, they just become horrible players when they play more than that, I don't know why?

Once again I'm going to say that Brandon Rush and Hansbrough need to be the starters, they are the best at their positions on the team hands down, Rush is a defensive machine and is starting to score now, Hansbrough's defense is been underrated by many here, he is always in the right place and keeps his position when guarding his man.


Let's hope that the next game is as exciting as this one and they could get a win.

BlueNGold
11-20-2010, 11:37 PM
I usually agree with you, but I think you are wrong about the showcasing theory and have been since the Murphy days. Jim honestly thinks the vets give him the best chance to win. He trusts JT more than AJ right now.

Ok. I suppose I can't read his mind. I just know...and apparently Jersey does as well...that vets are not necessarily who you should be playing.

BTW, I applaude Jim for playing Foster. In that case, it DOES give him a better chance to win over the young Solo. Notice that Solo's contract is tiny...;)

I still hold that money controls some of the decisions...

Day-V
11-20-2010, 11:38 PM
I seriously want to know why Mike Dunleavy insists on leaving his man when on defense. He needs an electric collar or something. Anytime he goes further than 5 feet off his guy; BZZZZZ! shock him.


Ok, so that's a bit ridiculous, but my goodness. Man Defense is something that was taught to me at age 7. It's not a difficult concept.

pacer4ever
11-20-2010, 11:41 PM
I seriously want to know why Mike Dunleavy insists on leaving his man when on defense. He needs an electric collar or something. Anytime he goes further than 5 feet off his guy; BZZZZZ! shock him.


Ok, so that's a bit ridiculous, but my goodness. Man Defense is something that was taught to me at age 7. It's not a difficult concept.

and j mac and TJ. Lewis lite up jmac and TJ left nelson many times.

Unclebuck
11-20-2010, 11:55 PM
I seriously want to know why Mike Dunleavy insists on leaving his man when on defense. He needs an electric collar or something. Anytime he goes further than 5 feet off his guy; BZZZZZ! shock him.


Ok, so that's a bit ridiculous, but my goodness. Man Defense is something that was taught to me at age 7. It's not a difficult concept.

We would need to look at the instances when you think "he left his man". I would gues on most of those, he left his man on purpose to be in position to play team defense

xBulletproof
11-21-2010, 12:00 AM
We would need to look at the instances when you think "he left his man". I would gues on most of those, he left his man on purpose to be in position to play team defense

I've tried to bring this up and talk about it. Gets ignored every time. He isn't going to leave his man for no reason, but they like to believe that. So I don't argue it anymore. Too many people seem to just understand streetball logic. If your man scores it's your fault, no matter the situation that caused it or led up to it happening. All I can figure.

Hibbert
11-21-2010, 12:01 AM
T.J. Ford, you ruined my evening at the Fieldhouse. Thanks a lot.

How so?

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 12:05 AM
We would need to look at the instances when you think "he left his man". I would gues on most of those, he left his man on purpose to be in position to play team defense

Attempt at humor? Sick joke regarding the Dunleavy team defense myth? Not funny..

Anyway, if you're going to put together the video evidence to support that claim I will certainly look at it. Otherwise, I'm going to assume it's mike doing what he does best...sucking at defense.

I for one can't wait for this season to be over.
A) We should be pretty good next year, if not by the end of this year. Despite our up and down record, the east is weak and I think we are a lock for the 7th or 8th spot in the playoffs which will be great experience we can carry into next year.
B) Mike AND TJ won't be anywhere near this team, and if they are it will be on a much smaller and worthwhile contract that won't cause any undue influence on their playing times and they can get the third string minutes that they deserve.
... at least in my dreams.

Hibbert
11-21-2010, 12:06 AM
I miss Darren Collison, I love Jeff Foster, I hate Mike Dunleavy, and I hate TJ Ford no matter how many big shots he hits because with Darren we would never be in this position.

All that said, I will never forget this game.

What has Collison done for us this year? TJ has been beyond good this year. Him being in a contract year probably plays a big part of it but still why hate still? I don't like him but have been enjoying watching him play with this team this year, he is different this year than in the past, its nice to see.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 12:08 AM
I've tried to bring this up and talk about it. Gets ignored every time. He isn't going to leave his man for no reason, but they like to believe that. So I don't argue it anymore. Too many people seem to just understand streetball logic. If your man scores it's your fault, no matter the situation that caused it or led up to it happening. All I can figure.

You and UB are cute. Really. ;)

Day-V
11-21-2010, 12:11 AM
We would need to look at the instances when you think "he left his man". I would gues on most of those, he left his man on purpose to be in position to play team defense

I get that. All i'm saying is that he needs to use that High Basketball IQ of his to determine when to help, and when it's time to go back out and guard his man.


Brandon Rush doesn't have this issue, at least not as bad.

xBulletproof
11-21-2010, 12:14 AM
You and UB are cute. Really. ;)

When debating the issue fails, attack the messenger.

That's not cute, it's sad.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 12:14 AM
What has Collison done for us this year? TJ has been beyond good this year. Him being in a contract year probably plays a big part of it but still why hate still? I don't like him but have been enjoying watching him play with this team this year, he is different this year than in the past, its nice to see.

DC has done plenty, the potential is there. The good TJ does is negated when he blows it at the end of a game. What good is a condom if it breaks? same thing. He is JOBs safety net, ie condom. JOB wears him during the big moment, he is useful until he becomes overused and breaks...and we know what happens when a condom breaks...you lose..so to speak.

DC will be 5x the PG the TJ is. He is a second year player and has to be allowed to make mistakes in order to be the PG that he will become. If we had lost with Tyler and AJ playing, Brandon starting...I wouldnt be so upset. Those are the players that need reps and if they take a loss, big deal, they grow.

vnzla81
11-21-2010, 12:14 AM
We would need to look at the instances when you think "he left his man". I would gues on most of those, he left his man on purpose to be in position to play team defense

Can we please stop with the team defense BS please? team defense or not Mike Dunleavy is a horrible defender, right now he got into a point were he is as bad as Troy Murphy, his defense today gave Orlando the lead and kept them there, I really try hard to like Mike and Posey but when people overrated them or keep saying that Mike has this high basketball IQ and that his team defense is so amazing it really grinds my gears, the same thing with Posey and his "know how to win" stuff, we need to stop overrating players, Posey and Dunleavy are who they are, bench players that if they have to play a big part in your team success you are in big trouble.

cordobes
11-21-2010, 12:15 AM
I get that. All i'm saying is that he needs to use that High Basketball IQ of his to determine when to help, and when it's time to go back out and guard his man.

Brandon Rush doesn't have this issue, at least not as bad.

No, what he needs is other guys to get the "help the helper" concept down. When you're helping, your man is not your responsibility any more, you go back to your man once your help isn't needed any more.

Rush was as bad defensively in the first quarter vs. the Clippers than Dunleavy has ever been this season.

DonSwanson
11-21-2010, 12:16 AM
Consolation: Milwaukee and Cleveland lost too, so we remain in 6th.

More bad news though: Miami lost. I'm sure they'll be on their A game Monday night to prevent a 2nd loss in a row. Hopefully our guys don't get too low and we can go steal one in Miami. I'd like for us to be 7-7 before we go out west.

Unclebuck
11-21-2010, 12:16 AM
I get that. All i'm saying is that he needs to use that High Basketball IQ of his to determine when to help, and when it's time to go back out and guard his man.


Brandon Rush doesn't have this issue, at least not as bad.


I would need to look at the actual plays. But maybe Rush is not in the correct position for team defense

My point on Mike is that he has physical limitation that cause him problems in one-on-one defense, but his team defense is generally excellent, so if he is "laving his man" it is on purpose and his attempt to be in position to play team defense

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 12:18 AM
When debating the issue fails, attack the messenger.

That's not cute, it's sad.

No I've just given up because you take one statement and run with it out of context. Outside of when we were losing down the stretch and I was clearly posting things out of frustration, I made some excellent and on point remarks that i'm sure you either intentionally looked over, or just didn't take the time to go back and read what led me to my current stance during the thread or otherwise you'd see where I am coming from. It's cool, no biggie. Stay sexy.

And c'mon, you know what happens to the messenger...he usually gets shot ;)

Day-V
11-21-2010, 12:21 AM
I would need to look at the actual plays. But maybe Rush is not in the correct position for team defense

My point on Mike is that he has physical limitation that cause him problems in one-on-one defense, but his team defense is generally excellent, so if he is "laving his man" it is on purpose and his attempt to be in position to play team defense

I know. And you're probably right. All I'm saying is, it gets very friggin' frustrating to see us leaving shooters WIDE open, and as they get the pass, it always seems to be Dunleavy's guy and Dunleavy having to run out there with a hand up in desperation.

bellisimo
11-21-2010, 12:22 AM
Franchise players should be able to create their own shots at the end of games.

Don't remember Reggie Miller being good at creating his own shot at the end of games...but pretty sure he was the franchise player of the Pacers in his time...

Young
11-21-2010, 12:24 AM
This is off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread for it.

I found this site, I think it might be new?

http://bballbreakdown.com/

xBulletproof
11-21-2010, 12:26 AM
No I've just given up because you take one statement and run with it out of context. Outside of when we were losing down the stretch and I was clearly posting things out of frustration, I made some excellent and on point remarks that i'm sure you either intentionally looked over, or just didn't take the time to go back and read what led me to my current stance during the thread or otherwise you'd see where I am coming from. It's cool, no biggie. Stay sexy.

And c'mon, you know what happens to the messenger...he usually gets shot ;)

As far as I know, I've only replied to you in one topic, and to two posts the entire time I've been here. This post makes it sound like I've beaten you into submission and have you "giving up" because I constantly nit pick something you're saying and give you crap all the time. A bit dramatic, are we?

In both posts I didn't nit pick anything, it was the general point of both posts. Whatever you need to tell yourself however.

Hicks
11-21-2010, 12:30 AM
Stop it with the Granger hate..really.

I've said this a few times.

Danny is not good at creating his own shot. So just giving him the ball and say "go" is not going to ever work.

So either we draw up a play for him..(aka..practice end of the game plays for him) or we give that job to someone else...

It has nothing to do with being a franchise player, and has everything to do with the fact that either the coach doesn't have a few set plays for him or his teammates don't execute to get him the ball in a position in which he can score. You can't keep asking Danny to do things he can't do.

Exactly. It's almost as bad as if Larry Brown, and later Larry Bird, said to Reggie Miller, "Okay, Reg, we're gonna run an iso play here with you dribbling the ball at the top of the key while everyone else gets the hell out of the way. Go get'em, Mr. Clutch!" Horrible. And not Danny's fault.

Brad8888
11-21-2010, 12:30 AM
I watched this game.

It was the single best defensive performance by the Pacers of O'Brien's tenure in my opinion.

Jeff Foster was the catalyst for the team and seemed like the Jeff we used to know! That really felt good to see.

Plainly, the decision making on offense with respect to taking 3's was hideous and ridiculous in a game where our players were playing their hearts out defensively. They didn't have the energy to make free throws, let alone 3's. Yes, it takes energy to make free throws, that is why coaches at all levels have players shoot free throws at the end of practice, in an effort to develop consistency when players are fatigued.

Orlando played stellar defense, and focused on Danny for the most part as our key weapon.

Hibbert had a very good half. Unfortunately, he is not yet experienced enough to keep himself composed in that situation. He will get there.

I felt TJ played about 80% of his minutes at a pretty decent level, but the other 20%, especially late, were very costly. More Price, please.

Dunleavy needs to develop better awareness of how he is being defended and look for others more than he did tonight. His shots while covered were damaging as well.

Then, there is the question of the power forward position.

McRoberts had a wonderful game for the short duration he was permitted to play. I believe that he could have made the difference from an energy standpoint had he played in the 4th. He also was very effective defensively this game, and could have made a significant difference on that end compared to his soon to be replacement, Posey.

I also believe that Hansbrough was under untilized. His energy also could have proven useful, even if he wasn't scoring.

Posey did three things tonight that were positive. I watched his play particularly closely due to my participation in the other threads that have discussed his play. He got his hands on the ball defensively because his man had been trapped defensively down low due to the team concept. He had one other slight deflection after he had been beaten by his man that caused a turnover. Obviously he hit the 3 that put the Pacers in the lead. Otherwise, he was almost the only player on the floor (with the exception of a couple of lapses by Dunleavy) not playing effective defense, primarily because he simply isn't quick enough to do so any more. He failed to recover from doubling moire than once, one of which he didn't even look like he realized that he should have. He also sagged WAY off his man frequently, leaving wide open jumpers. He tried to flash to the arc on one of them, and the shot was missed, but Orlando was tired like we were at that point. He had to foul to stop guys, otherwise they were going to have their way. He confirmed once more who I believe he is in my opinion.

So, for me, coaching was a significant factor in the loss. Over reliance on the 3 killed a winning effort. Over reliance on James Posey instead of the combination of the Animal Crackers was very costly due to the drain on the defensive effort that could have been even better than it was. And, to top it off, once again letting the clock run without fouling when down 2 with 20 seconds left was the surest way to put the final nail in the Pacers coffin for the night. The players should know better, but even if they don't, the coach should have been screaming for the foul, and he most definitely was not.

But, at least the best defensive effort since O'Brien came here kept the game interesting and winnable almost down to the end against a team that is top quality. Good job by our players despite it all!

Goooooooo Pacers!!!!!!!!

ksuttonjr76
11-21-2010, 12:34 AM
We were 5-3 last year, and went 1-10 to get to 6-13. That was a bad stretch of opponents, and we are going into this year's version of that now.

Really, prepare yourself for the 8-12 record, or worse, that is coming. It won't be an indicator of how we finish the season.

:bs:. I'm preparing myself for a 6-6 record after the Miami Heat game.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 12:35 AM
Don't remember Reggie Miller being good at creating his own shot at the end of games...but pretty sure he was the franchise player of the Pacers in his time...

Reggies movement without the ball is what created his shots, he may not have had the dribbles and iso that i'd like to see out of danny, but he found a way to get open. Danny moves nowhere near how reggie did and doesnt work near as hard to get open. No comparison. Danny has a long way to go before he can be compared to Reggie. Danny is a good shooter, but not what Reggie was in that department either. I never worried about Reggie taking contested jumpers from any range, not the case with Danny. Reggie has an uncanny ability to step up with the game on the line, he defined his career by stepping up in the fourth. Danny has so long to go to match that. So really, not to de a bick, but if you don't remember Reggie getting his own shot at the end of games, you must not have been much of a fan back then. Reggie made me the happiest kid in the world through much of the 90's. Pure heart and determination. All work.

ksuttonjr76
11-21-2010, 12:44 AM
Looking through the rest of the thread...the TJ Ford and JOB hate is without merit. IMHO, I thought Indiana played a great game. The reasons why we lost was: Bad FT shooting, lost Hibbert for long stretches due to foul trouble, and Rashard Lewis nailed some tough shots during the course of the game.

IMHO, the BIGGEST reason for the lost was the fouls on Hibbert. Howard went wild after Hibbert went to the bench. I WAS REALLY hoping that Hibbert would get Howard in foul trouble first. Hibbert's presence would have commanded a double team, and we could have gotten cleaner looks. No Hibbert = No worrying about the middle...especially when you have Foster and Posey playing.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 12:47 AM
As far as I know, I've only replied to you in one topic, and to two posts the entire time I've been here. This post makes it sound like I've beaten you into submission and have you "giving up" because I constantly nit pick something you're saying and give you crap all the time. A bit dramatic, are we?

In both posts I didn't nit pick anything, it was the general point of both posts. Whatever you need to tell yourself however.

It's more about you pointing out how upset I was following the loss when it was clear to everyone and myself and didnt need to be said. UB said something and you joined in, just like all the other posts...its cool if you want to shadow him, be his assistant pimp..cosign to all his stuff, but don't do it at my expense. Simple as that. Anyway, I'm done. It's pointless to go back and forth with a fellow Pacers fan regardless of the reason. Let's end it at this and go back to keeping our posts related to the team. Thanks.

xBulletproof
11-21-2010, 12:54 AM
It's more about you pointing out how upset I was following the loss when it was clear to everyone and myself and didnt need to be said. UB said something and you joined in, just like all the other posts...its cool if you want to shadow him, be his assistant pimp..cosign to all his stuff, but don't do it at my expense. Simple as that. Anyway, I'm done. It's pointless to go back and forth with a fellow Pacers fan regardless of the reason. Let's end it at this and go back to keeping our posts related to the team. Thanks.

So your feelings are hurt because I pointed out you overreacted and were being irrational ..... and that's MY fault? :laugh: Just like in that topic where you claimed nobody should comment on your overreaction and should just let it go without pointing it out. You should just be able to say dumb things and nobody's supposed to say anything why? Because you're that special? Get over yourself.

Make your own forum and don't let anyone else join. Vent at will there and you won't get it pointed out.

What an overly emotional, irrational, and self righteous kid. I have just as much of a right to respond as you do to overreact. Get mad at yourself, not everyone else.

joeyd
11-21-2010, 12:59 AM
Not the outcome we hoped for, but a great game with great effort and hustle, and great crowd-involvement. So impressed with the effort against Howard and Carter. Carter always seems to kill us from the perimeter. Forgot who was guarding him, but Carter was held in check all night. Howard was really held in check until almost the end of the third quarter, though he was a rebounding machine. Foster is playing like a guy half his age in his limited minutes, and I hope he will continue to do this if only to keep the Foster-bashers silent. In the limited minutes he is projected to play, age is not going to be a factor. I am very impressed with how he alters games. If I recall correctly, Foster caused Howard to kick the ball back out several times more than he did when Hibbert was guarding him. He just seemed to take it to Hibbert more, maybe in an attempt to draw fouls that Foster would not be lulled into making.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 01:03 AM
So your feelings are hurt because I pointed out you overreacted and were being irrational ..... and that's MY fault? :laugh: Just like in that topic where you claimed nobody should comment on your overreaction and should just let it go without pointing it out. You should just be able to say dumb things and nobody's supposed to say anything why? Because you're that special? Get over yourself.

Make your own forum and don't let anyone else join. Vent at will there and you won't get it pointed out.

What an overly emotional, irrational, and self righteous kid. I have just as much of a right to respond as you do to overreact. Get mad at yourself, not everyone else.

And here you go again. All I'm saying is, yea I was upset. You went out of your way to point out what someone else did and jump on their gravy train. Feelings aren't hurt, just annoyed that someone would be childish enough to pick at someone who was upset with good reason. I'm not allowed to be upset over a loss? thanks mom. And now I'm dumb? lots of name calling going on...self righteous, dumn, irrational, emotional?. Sounds like you are the one who is mad. I thought you were bulletproof? Clearly an overreaction on your behalf. It's ok though, I can expect as much from an assistant pimp with no ideas of his own, I'd be frustrated too if all I could do was jump on well repected posters back and ride his ideas like they were my own too. I still think its cute by the way ;) Pucker up pretty boy.

kester99
11-21-2010, 01:04 AM
:bs:. I'm preparing myself for a 6-6 record after the Miami Heat game.

I'm all for it.

bellisimo
11-21-2010, 01:11 AM
Reggies movement without the ball is what created his shots, he may not have had the dribbles and iso that i'd like to see out of danny, but he found a way to get open. Danny moves nowhere near how reggie did and doesnt work near as hard to get open. No comparison. Danny has a long way to go before he can be compared to Reggie. Danny is a good shooter, but not what Reggie was in that department either. I never worried about Reggie taking contested jumpers from any range, not the case with Danny. Reggie has an uncanny ability to step up with the game on the line, he defined his career by stepping up in the fourth. Danny has so long to go to match that. So really, not to de a bick, but if you don't remember Reggie getting his own shot at the end of games, you must not have been much of a fan back then. Reggie made me the happiest kid in the world through much of the 90's. Pure heart and determination. All work.

Reggie did notcreate space by himself - they were set plays - the team said ok time to get Reggie the balland then they ran a various set of screens to get Reggie open - that is not rating your own shot- that is playing within a system and running plays

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 01:12 AM
Not the outcome we hoped for, but a great game with great effort and hustle, and great crowd-involvement. So impressed with the effort against Howard and Carter. Carter always seems to kill us from the perimeter. Forgot who was guarding him, but Carter was held in check all night. Howard was really held in check until almost the end of the third quarter, though he was a rebounding machine. Foster is playing like a guy half his age in his limited minutes, and I hope he will continue to do this if only to keep the Foster-bashers silent. In the limited minutes he is projected to play, age is not going to be a factor. I am very impressed with how he alters games. If I recall correctly, Foster caused Howard to kick the ball back out several times more than he did when Hibbert was guarding him. He just seemed to take it to Hibbert more, maybe in an attempt to draw fouls that Foster would not be lulled into making.

It was nice to not have Carter go off against us...seems a long time since thats been the case, if ever lol.

Hibbert
11-21-2010, 01:12 AM
Stop it with the Granger hate..really.

I've said this a few times.

Danny is not good at creating his own shot. So just giving him the ball and say "go" is not going to ever work.

So either we draw up a play for him..(aka..practice end of the game plays for him) or we give that job to someone else...

It has nothing to do with being a franchise player, and has everything to do with the fact that either the coach doesn't have a few set plays for him or his teammates don't execute to get him the ball in a position in which he can score. You can't keep asking Danny to do things he can't do.

Good vs. Great. We are paying him 60M dollars. He has been the best player on our team for what 5 years now and still have not seen him taken over as our team leader. I waited and waited and than Roy came here and this year he has taken over as our team leader, something Danny was not capable of doing or just didn't want or care to. Im tired of hearing people defend Danny, we can't keep asking Danny to do things he can't do? Good vs. Great. If Danny was great he would work on everything that he "can't do", he would a leader and a guy we could count on late in the game to hit a big shot when we are down but we can't. Danny is just good, he will never be great. You have to have heart and a good attitude, he has neither. Last year I saw him get down on himself to the point where it affected his game and basically took himself out of the game, he is doing the same thing this year. Instead of shaking it off he lets it get to him, he is weak mentally. When he is having a bad shooting game that's it, it's over. He can't shake it off and pull it together. He is either hot or cold, there is no in between with him. He is one of the most inconsistent players in the league. Agree, disagree, get mad at me, I dont care, this is very true. I like Danny don't get me wrong, I just can't believe some of the stuff I hear, read, and see about him.

xBulletproof
11-21-2010, 01:16 AM
And here you go again. All I'm saying is, yea I was upset. You went out of your way to point out what someone else did and jump on their gravy train. Feelings aren't hurt, just annoyed that someone would be childish enough to pick at someone who was upset with good reason. I'm not allowed to be upset over a loss? thanks mom. And now I'm dumb? lots of name calling going on...self righteous, dumn, irrational, emotional?. Sounds like you are the one who is mad. I thought you were bulletproof? Clearly an overreaction on your behalf. It's ok though, I can expect as much from an assistant pimp with no ideas of his own, I'd be frustrated too if all I could do was jump on well repected posters back and ride his ideas like they were my own too. I still think its cute by the way ;) Pucker up pretty boy.

Yes, I agreed with him twice. You're amazingly astute. I've disagreed with him to an extent before that I thought he put me on ignore. Yet, I ride his coattails. Especially when in the other thread he wasn't even saying the same thing I was. :rolleyes:

You've got some growing up to do. Goodness. Nice passive aggressive attempts though. I know you're over there seething with anger. It's pretty obvious when someone is overly emotional like you. You let it fly when it's something about the game, but try to hide it with me because you don't want me to think I got the best of you. Bad thing is, I'm not even trying. I'm just trying to talk basketball and you get personal with the "cute" comments because you're so bothered by something that happened in a completely different thread.

It's pretty obvious who's angry and has hurt feelings. Keep trying to convince yourself you aren't though. Maybe it'll happen one day. However I'm done arguing with children who antagonize but can't comprehend simple basketball strategy. Unlike you claiming to ignore me, but won't because you're so enamored with what I might say next, you're really going to be ignored.

Do yourself and everyone around you a favor and stop acting like everyone owes you something. I ignore people who act like that in person too. Good luck.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 01:16 AM
Reggie did notcreate space by himself - they were set plays - the team said ok time to get Reggie the balland then they ran a various set of screens to get Reggie open - that is not rating your own shot- that is playing within a system and running plays

Agree to disagree... Reggie never stopped moving and ran his defenders ragged night in and night out. If he didn't work so hard the screeners would have been useless. That to me is working to get your own shot. His movement without the ball got him open shots plenty, it wasn't always about a set play with Reggie. For you to say he only got his points off of set plays is a slap in the face of his game. Sure they ran plays for him, but he worked his azz off to get open and the work he put in all game payed off in the end when the defender was a step slower in the fourth quarter from chasing him around all game. THOSE situations he created for himself.

Eddie Gill
11-21-2010, 01:22 AM
I hereby motion to include Jeff Foster in the Animal Crackers. Dude was a beast tonight.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 01:24 AM
Yes, I agreed with him twice. You're amazingly astute. I've disagreed with him to an extent before that I thought he put me on ignore. Yet, I ride his coattails. Especially when in the other thread he wasn't even saying the same thing I was. :rolleyes:

You've got some growing up to do. Goodness. Nice passive aggressive attempts though. I know you're over there seething with anger. It's pretty obvious when someone is overly emotional like you. You let it fly when it's something about the game, but try to hide it with me because you don't want me to think I got the best of you. Bad thing is, I'm not even trying. I'm just trying to talk basketball and you get personal with the "cute" comments because you're so bothered by something that happened in a completely different thread.

It's pretty obvious who's angry and has hurt feelings. Keep trying to convince yourself you aren't though. Maybe it'll happen one day. However I'm done arguing with children who antagonize but can't comprehend simple basketball strategy. Unlike you claiming to ignore me, but won't because you're so enamored with what I might say next, you're really going to be ignored.

Do yourself and everyone around you and stop acting like everyone owes you something. I ignore people who act like that in person too. Good luck.

Your posts are getting longer and longer, and more boring to boot. I only get angry with things I care about...like the Pacers. You're merely an inconvience that I felt like teaching a lesson to, and let me tell you...it worked. The fact that you keep going after I already tried to end this is evidence enough. Everytime you come back with one of these long, drawn out psychological breakdowns of me it just proves my stance that you are the angry one...and clearly not bulletproof. I'd like to end it at this...like I tried to do before, but go ahead. Post a response again and show everyone how good you are at breaking down someones mental profile because its obviously important to you. Makes you look good in your mind or something, whatever works. I'm going back to posting about the GAME and the TEAM with people who are here to talk about things like that and not to make it a point to get the last word in on smoeone who called them out and made them feel foolish as I appear to have done to you. ;) If you were my boyfriend I'd be embarassed to take you on a date..

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 01:26 AM
I hereby motion to include Jeff Foster in the Animal Crackers. Dude was a beast tonight.

We do have three rowdy *** white guys on our team...don't know if any other teams can claim that lol

Hibbert
11-21-2010, 01:27 AM
No, what he needs is other guys to get the "help the helper" concept down. When you're helping, your man is not your responsibility any more, you go back to your man once your help isn't needed any more.

Rush was as bad defensively in the first quarter vs. the Clippers than Dunleavy has ever been this season.

Your trying to compare one quarter of basketball here. To be fair that was Brandon's 4th game back and he had 5 less games played than Mike. Brandon will take over Mike's starting spot soon, main reason being defense. Besides he is a better basketball player than Mike as well. Stick up for Mike all you want, justify, compare one quarter.... but it won't fool any real Pacer fan that watches and knows the game.

jmoney2584
11-21-2010, 01:30 AM
Your trying to compare one quarter of basketball here. To be fair that was Brandon's 4th game back and he had 5 less games played than Mike. Brandon will take over Mike's starting spot soon, main reason being defense. Besides he is a better basketball player than Mike as well. Stick up for Mike all you want, justify, compare one quarter.... but it won't fool any real Pacer fan that watches and knows the game.

Makes me wonder if JOB is a Pacers fan and/or watches the games lol. If Brandon doesn't get the starting nod soon I may have to go silent ninja style on JOB.

beast23
11-21-2010, 02:00 AM
Attempt at humor? Sick joke regarding the Dunleavy team defense myth? Not funny..

Anyway, if you're going to put together the video evidence to support that claim I will certainly look at it. Otherwise, I'm going to assume it's mike doing what he does best...sucking at defense.

I for one can't wait for this season to be over.
A) We should be pretty good next year, if not by the end of this year. Despite our up and down record, the east is weak and I think we are a lock for the 7th or 8th spot in the playoffs which will be great experience we can carry into next year.
B) Mike AND TJ won't be anywhere near this team, and if they are it will be on a much smaller and worthwhile contract that won't cause any undue influence on their playing times and they can get the third string minutes that they deserve.
... at least in my dreams.
Quite frankly, I think it would be an absolute waste of time to even attempt to put together a video to demonstrate the point that Dunleavy is "away from his man" only in instances of attempting to contribute to team defense. I personally just don't think some of you would "get it".

And, the opinion that the size of a contract influences a coach's decision regarding playing time is one of the more off the wall comments I've ever read.

Dunleavy stops penetration by Nelson on the break, Lewis scores a 3, and everyone blames Dunleavy for the score.

Dunleavy sags a little toward the paint to help discourage the entry pass to Howard, the ball is reversed and his man scores, and fault is found with Dunleavy for attempting to prevent the greater threat from scoring.

Some don't get it and I fear they never will. As xBulletproof states, "Is streetball the only thing that is understood?"

pizza guy
11-21-2010, 02:16 AM
Great, great effort tonight. The defense in the second half was great, and Hibbert's D on Howard in the first half was great.

All this "Dunleavy plays great team defense" is nonsense. I have liked Mike for some time, and have used that line before. But it's obvious that when Rush replaces MDJ, our TEAM defense IMPROVES, along with our man defense. Rush needs to have the starting job for that reason alone. Add to it that Mike is an inefficient scorer while Rush seems to casually hit an open three or make a couple simple jumpers, and it's blatantly obvious that Mike needs to come off the bench and play limited minutes.

Speaking of limited minutes, someone needs to introduce them to James Posey. He hit a big shot for us tonight...A big shot...ONE. He made a few good plays on defense, too. I actually like Posey quite a bit, in the same role as Dunleavy. James got way too minutes tonight, and I would've liked to have seen more Hans and maybe a little PG24?! C'mon JO'B.

Hibbert's first half was tremendous. I was dreaming of the SportsCenter telecast that would follow, declaring that Hibbert had arrived and had owned D Howard tonight. But, the veteran Howard got Big Roy into foul trouble early in the third...and fourth...and completely derailed that train. This was the difference in the game, IMO. If Roy plays more in the second half, and maybe gets Howard into foul trouble like he did in the first, the Pacers win this going away. It frees up Danny to be more effective, our offense runs smoother (i.e. less TJ Ford ball domination), and we have our way in the paint. But, these are the things our young players have to learn by experience.

Danny was shut down tonight. Most of the game, I didn't realize he was on the floor. His defense, coupled with Rush's and Foster's, is what kept us in the game, though. The first half it seemed like Orlando was hitting a lot of perimeter shots because Hibbert had Howard on lock down. The second half was flipped: Hibbert on the bench, Howard dominating, but the outside shots were just not there for Orlando.

TJ played well enough for most of the game to have me firmly planted on his side (for tonight), but he made such a bonehead play in fouling Nelson that I'm just going to say this. AJ looked good and I'm glad DC is coming back.

Overall, I think we HAVE to come away from this game feeling pretty darn good about where this team is. We gave Orlando everything they could handle and had the lead with under a minute! This is an elite team we faced tonight, and we had them on the ropes. Our guys may not know how to win the close ones yet, and our coach may be incompetent, and our veteran players may get too many minutes, and our "franchise player" may not be Kobe, but doggone it if I'm going to be upset about this game. Heckuva fun game to watch, and heckuva effort from the Indiana Pacers. They were down 7 to the Magic, had no momentum whatsoever, and instead of calling it quits like previous years, they fought back and took the lead!

We may make the playoffs or we may miss the playoffs, but this team is on the right track and is a lot of fun to watch. I'm excited to be a Pacer fan again.

--pizza

cdash
11-21-2010, 02:53 AM
:bs:. I'm preparing myself for a 6-6 record after the Miami Heat game.

Reason #42 this season is different than last season: I actually feel like we have more than a puncher's chance at winning that game. I didn't look at that post and roll my eyes. I really think we are a playoff team this year, and I really believe we can hang with anyone. It's refreshing to feel this way about the Pacers again.

BringJackBack
11-21-2010, 02:56 AM
Reason #42 this season is different than last season: I actually feel like we have more than a puncher's chance at winning that game. I didn't look at that post and roll my eyes. I really think we are a playoff team this year, and I really believe we can hang with anyone. It's refreshing to feel this way about the Pacers again.

I especially can't wait until teams like Orlando come to our house and we EXPECT to win. That will be amazing. And well deserved.

PacersPride
11-21-2010, 02:57 AM
tough loss tonight.. would really have enjoyed beating the magic, who are a top 3 EC team. we hung tough, there were some BS calls but you have to win regardless. would like to have seen Roy out there in the 4th but due to fouls he had to sit. i dont know if it would have made a difference but having DC would have been nice as well.

pacers played great.. despite the loss this was encouraging to see.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 02:57 AM
Quite frankly, I think it would be an absolute waste of time to even attempt to put together a video to demonstrate the point that Dunleavy is "away from his man" only in instances of attempting to contribute to team defense. I personally just don't think some of you would "get it".

And, the opinion that the size of a contract influences a coach's decision regarding playing time is one of the more off the wall comments I've ever read.

Dunleavy stops penetration by Nelson on the break, Lewis scores a 3, and everyone blames Dunleavy for the score.
Dunleavy sags a little toward the paint to help discourage the entry pass to Howard, the ball is reversed and his man scores, and fault is found with Dunleavy for attempting to prevent the greater threat from scoring.

Some don't get it and I fear they never will. As xBulletproof states, "Is streetball the only thing that is understood?"

no thoes 3s were J MAC's fault. He played pretty bad.

spazzxb
11-21-2010, 03:02 AM
I will continue to say that JOB is a terrible caoch and anyone who says otherwise has no sense what so ever.

How does one respond to that without directly insulting this poster. I think the class of your post speaks for its self.

PacersPride
11-21-2010, 03:04 AM
How does one respond to that without directly insulting this poster. I think the class of your post speaks for its self.

im not much of an obrien fan, dont know who we could bring in here to replace him that would be a significant upgrade.. but Bird im sure has more sense than anyone on this board.. and for some reason continues to support o'brien.

ApNeDtRiEeW
11-21-2010, 03:20 AM
Bird needs to be our coach

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 03:24 AM
JOB must hate AJ 12 mins ugg(TJ 35 mins). He should of been in there in winning time.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:04 AM
Next we go into Miami so here comes 5-7. Let's bounce back after that to be .500 again.

Consistency. Our team has none. We are young, or our system relies on too many jumpers.

I think we could beat the Heat in Miami. They really don't scare me that much night to night.

Sookie
11-21-2010, 04:06 AM
Danny was getting Lebron treatment....and Danny's not Lebron. It's no surprise they shut him down. I think Danny helps the team by drawing attention...and all the players, including Danny...need to learn how to move the ball.

Also, Rush and Price should have the back court locked up. They can both hit perimeter J's and are the best defensive players at their positions. I suppose I'd be fine with Collison at PG...but Price plays smart, savvy, veteran basketball. Dude plays like he's 30 years old. He's also not a runt like TJ and Darren. As for Rush, he's clearly our best SG. It's not even close.

I think, at the end of the day I'm a huge Price fan, essentially because of how high of a BBall IQ this kid has. And it's only gotten moreso since last season (from what I've seen in these three games.)

The defense that Rush and Price were playing was remarkable, because it was the "team defense" except Price and Rush would know how to rotate for each other, and they'd point it out to others to help them out.

I think Dun knows how to help his teammates out, in order to stop penetration to the basket, but he doesn't rotate well. (Collison, just flat out loses his guy)

I think Price is a hard guy for JOB to figure out. He's young, but he plays older..As I've said a few times, I like the Collison/Price combo because Collison's mentality is like the energizer bunny, and Price is like "settle the eff down" it's a good combo, but Price's is obviously more..mature.

He's also far more effective then the stat sheet ever shows..which is another problem for JOB. And I think he sees that Price is effective, but needs his proof (his stats)

And TJ..Tj just makes mistake after mistake..after mistake..and often its the same freaking mistake..I get the feeling he was a guy who was successful because of his physical gifts, and never learned to develope the mental part of the game..that's just how he comes off.

It's hard to tell which one JOB actually wants to play. Logically, you'd expect Price..but I don't know that JOB can get past the whole "vet" thing. However, it seems like there's been an awful lot of good press coming from the Pacers in regards to TJ Ford..when quite frankly, throughout the season, he's been on the bad side of mediocre..he's just been a huge upgrade from last season's TJ Ford.

As for Danny/franchise player..once again, not all franchise players create their own shots..in fact..that doesn't matter really, a good portion of guys who take the last shot aren't franchise players and can't create their own shots.

How many big shots has Ray taken and hit? Fisher? There's plenty more..but those guys are set up..and that's important.

Now, this is not necessarily JOB's fault. It has the potential to be about execution as well as the design of the play. I have to believe that JOB practices an "end of the game situation play" at practice..so the question becomes "why aren't the players doing it?"

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:09 AM
did i mention anything about his playing time? when hibbert was in the game, the pacers were not looking to get him involved in the 2nd half. 5 fouls or not, hibbert was not being fed the ball when he was in the game in the 2nd half.

Hibbert has to take some of the blame for his disappearing acts in the second half of games. He's totally changing the way he plays from half to half, he's floating more and he rarely establishes himself anywhere on the court in the second half offensively. Even when he goes to the post in the 2nd half, he's not establishing position physically, he's just kind of standing there.

Sookie
11-21-2010, 04:10 AM
Hibbert has to take some of the blame for his disappearing acts in the second half of games. He's totally changing the way he plays from half to half, he's floating more and he rarely establishes himself anywhere on the court in the second half offensively. Even when he goes to the post in the 2nd half, he's not establishing position physically, he's just kind of standing there.

It's because teams adjust to him..and the coaching staff, and Hibbert himself, needs to figure out a way to readjust.

15th parallel
11-21-2010, 04:15 AM
I really don't understand the high negativity about this game. I thought they played well against the Magic especially on defense. The fact that we almost beat them is something that I didn't even expect.

Despite his off-night, Danny played well defensively, something that I'm really happy about. Roy Hibbert showed that he can dominate Dwight Howard on both ends. He's just unlucky that he hadn't controlled his fouls to stay longer in the game. Somehow, I feel optimistic that we can beat Miami on the next game.

What I really think will improve this team is to limit the minutes of Dunleavy. When he's not scoring, he's becoming a liability. Going more with Rush on SG is better moving forward.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:18 AM
It's because teams adjust to him..and the coaching staff, and Hibbert himself, needs to figure out a way to readjust.

Fair enough, but is JOB really dumb enough that he tells Roy to not go into the post anymore in the second half? I mean even the most staunch JOB hater has to admit that is a serious stretch. Roy HAS to be more aggressive. Howard was not challenged at all when Roy had the ball offensively, in the first half Roy went right at him, hook shots, dunks, Roy was rockin', then in the 2nd half he put his tail between his legs, and would not establish, even when he's in the post, he's just standing there and when he gets the ball, he's trying to establish position while he has the ball.

All great big men, from Wilt to Kareem to Shaq to Dwight, establish position BEFORE they get the ball. Once Roy gets the ball it should literally be 2 to 3 seconds before he shoots or passes or draws a foul.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:20 AM
Now...
Rush vs. Dunleavy...

Is there really any comparison at this point? Our defense goes from about a 6 to a 9 out of 10 when Danny and Rush man the wings. I've seen enough of Dunleavy to last a life time. He's a chucker, he and JR Smith could be best of friends, and his "team defense" please...the next time I see Dunleavy positively impact a defensive position will be the first.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 04:20 AM
Hibbert has to take some of the blame for his disappearing acts in the second half of games. He's totally changing the way he plays from half to half, he's floating more and he rarely establishes himself anywhere on the court in the second half offensively. Even when he goes to the post in the 2nd half, he's not establishing position physically, he's just kind of standing there.

For some reason in the 2nd half of most games. We stop going to him in the low post but go to him in the high post. If you watch the game 2nite in winning time he was in the high post(actually closer to the 3pt line). I think we need him in the low post almost all the time. I know he is a good passer. So he should be able to pass out of the low post as well as the high post. Plain and simple we need Roy in the low post and not as much in the high post.

Sookie
11-21-2010, 04:21 AM
Fair enough, but is JOB really dumb enough that he tells Roy to not go into the post anymore in the second half? I mean even the most staunch JOB hater has to admit that is a serious stretch. Roy HAS to be more aggressive. Howard was not challenged at all when Roy had the ball offensively, in the first half Roy went right at him, hook shots, dunks, Roy was rockin', then in the 2nd half he put his tail between his legs, and would not establish, even when he's in the post, he's just standing there and when he gets the ball, he's trying to establish position while he has the ball.

All great big men, from Wilt to Kareem to Shaq to Dwight, establish position BEFORE they get the ball. Once Roy gets the ball it should literally be 2 to 3 seconds before he shoots or passes or draws a foul.



Honestly, I don't know..JOB seems to very much be a "take what the other team is giving you" kind of coach. So perhaps if they are guarding Hibbert heavily, JOB's adjustment is "go away from Hibbert"

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:22 AM
My point P4E is that Roy is getting pushed out of the low post. Watch him, he's getting chased out of there by whoever is guarding him.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:22 AM
Honestly, I don't know..JOB seems to very much be a "take what the other team is giving you" kind of coach. So perhaps if they are guarding Hibbert heavily, JOB's adjustment is "go away from Hibbert"

Come on...I guarantee the Magic came into the game knowing they needed to slow down Hibbert, it's not like it was a half time revelation.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 04:23 AM
Now...
Rush vs. Dunleavy...

Is there really any comparison at this point? Our defense goes from about a 6 to a 9 out of 10 when Danny and Rush man the wings. I've seen enough of Dunleavy to last a life time. He's a chucker, he and JR Smith could be best of friends, and his "team defense" please...the next time I see Dunleavy positively impact a defensive position will be the first.

half of the shots mike takes he isnt even squared up. They just almost dont have a chance to go in. Rush is almost the exact opposite. He isnt gonna just shoot a contest shot like mike will.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 04:26 AM
My point P4E is that Roy is getting pushed out of the low post. Watch him, he's getting chased out of there by whoever is guarding him.

in the 1st half he was so effective from the low post. But the 2nd half was hard to gauge he was in foul trouble most of it. But 2nite it seemed like he was playing so well. In winning time we should of slowed the temo down and got him the ball in the low post. instead of playing with 5 gus on the premieter.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:26 AM
Mike is just a nasty basketball player to watch. Terrible shot selection doesn't even begin to describe his choices.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:27 AM
in the 1st half he was so effective from the low post. But the 2nd half was hard to gauge he was in foul trouble most of it. But 2nite it seemed like he was playing so well. In winning time we should of slowed the temo down and got him the ball in the low post. instead of playing with 5 gus on the premieter.

He was out there the whole time except for the last play with about 10 seconds left and we had to have a 3. He didn't establish position, period. Why it happened? I don't know, but I'm just not buying the "JOB says stop going to Roy in the 2nd half"....

He's gotta establish position, that's all I'm saying. He kept getting pushed out of the paint anytime he was on the court in the second half.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 04:34 AM
He was out there the whole time except for the last play with about 10 seconds left and we had to have a 3. He didn't establish position, period. Why it happened? I don't know, but I'm just not buying the "JOB says stop going to Roy in the 2nd half"....

He's gotta establish position, that's all I'm saying. He kept getting pushed out of the paint anytime he was on the court in the second half.

i have to re watch the game. But i know he missed a bunch of the 2nd half due to foul trouble. In the 1st half it looked like he had his way with Dwight in the low post but for some reason he wasnt in the low post in the 2nd. I dont know how he went from having his way with Dwight to being man handled like u said happen. I guess i will have to re watch 2 figure that one out .



We didnt need a 3 the last play we just needed 4 pts but Dunleavy decided to use is high B BALL IQ to almost dribble out the clock. Instead of getting a quick shot off. B rush was open on that inboud pass but we mised him.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:36 AM
I don't have a solid answer as to why, but Roy definitely was not establishing position the same way in the 2nd. Maybe Roy isn't that good in the pick n' roll which we ran extensively in the 2nd half. Which is sort of depressing if that's the case.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 04:38 AM
I don't have a solid answer as to why, but Roy definitely was not establishing position the same way in the 2nd. Maybe Roy isn't that good in the pick n' roll which we ran extensively in the 2nd half. Which is sort of depressing if that's the case.

all i remember we were running in winning time was TJ isolation. I wanted aj out there.

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:39 AM
Nah, in winning time we ran several pick n rolls with Roy and Danny. The Posey three came off that play. That was our go to play the last two minutes or so. Danny going off a Roy pick.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 04:43 AM
Nah, in winning time we ran several pick n rolls with Roy and Danny. The Posey three came off that play. That was our go to play the last two minutes or so. Danny going off a Roy pick.

i should have put 4th ya i remember the PnR's with DG . But ya i didnt like the posey play the 2nd three he was pretty well covered and decided to still chuck it. I dont remember the shot clock though

Trader Joe
11-21-2010, 04:45 AM
It was a bad shot.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 04:46 AM
It was a bad shot.

that possesion we really need a score or at least a good look.

Hibbert
11-21-2010, 07:33 PM
I don't have a solid answer as to why, but Roy definitely was not establishing position the same way in the 2nd. Maybe Roy isn't that good in the pick n' roll which we ran extensively in the 2nd half. Which is sort of depressing if that's the case.

Please, he was never pushed out. I watched the game twice, once live and once this morning. He was never pushed anywhere by anybody. Orlando made adjustments and Roy simply never went down low in the second half.

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 07:57 PM
Please, he was never pushed out. I watched the game twice, once live and once this morning. He was never pushed anywhere by anybody. Orlando made adjustments and Roy simply never went down low in the second half.

thats what i thoght. I feel we win that game if Roy plays in the low post in winning time.

BlueNGold
11-21-2010, 11:43 PM
We were 5-3 last year, and went 1-10 to get to 6-13. That was a bad stretch of opponents, and we are going into this year's version of that now.

Really, prepare yourself for the 8-12 record, or worse, that is coming. It won't be an indicator of how we finish the season.

I saw this post and meant to comment. Yes, it's going to be rough. However, this is not the same team as last year. This team is capable of fighting back...something it wasn't able to do the last several years.

So average teams are not going to turn it on and blow us away like the last few years. There will be times that happens, but it will not be under the opponent's control like it was in the previous few years. If we are on our game, we can compete with most teams. Only the elite teams will blow us out when we are on our game....and only if they are playing their best basketball.

We are a more complete team this year. We are much better off at at least a couple positions on the floor and I would argue we are better at every single position. We are also much healthier.

jeffg-body
11-21-2010, 11:53 PM
I was ok with this game myself. We shot poorly and played bad defense at times but still hung around and had our chances to win the game even though we were without our starting PG.

D-BONE
11-22-2010, 12:03 AM
I thought the defensive intensity in the second half was bordering on playoff-like. Add that to the crowed being into it since it went down to the wire. I really enjoyed it except the loss part.

That's a very tough team we played. We shot abysmally and still stayed right in it. Disappointing, but certainly a good showing.

Didn't like the last Posey three, but had it not been for some good play by him in the few minutes leading up to that point, we might not have even been in position to challenge for the game.

So far so unimpressed by Dunleavy this year. I mean...he's okay, but that just it. OKAY. I think that's about what we can expect from him, whereas we could have some of his minutes going to Rush (and George, too).

Unclebuck
11-22-2010, 10:03 AM
Exactly. It's almost as bad as if Larry Brown, and later Larry Bird, said to Reggie Miller, "Okay, Reg, we're gonna run an iso play here with you dribbling the ball at the top of the key while everyone else gets the hell out of the way. Go get'em, Mr. Clutch!" Horrible. And not Danny's fault.

Those are not isolations they are running for Granger. They are screen and rolls. The Magic defended it differently than most teams have - the Magic trapped Danny and made it difficult for him to do anything, so he had the pass the ball. That is what good defenses do. But egenrally that play is one of our best - Danny gets a lot of layups on that, he gets a lot of open 15 ft shots on the right side of the lane and it can often open up passing lanes also. IMO that is one of our best 3 or 4 plays we run at the end of the games.

Give the Magic credit for defending it in a way we are not used to, but to just stop running it I think is wrong.

DonSwanson
11-22-2010, 10:14 AM
To further touch upon the Brandon Rush vs Mike Dunleavy defense issue... People always are quick to knock Mike D, but in the final 20 seconds something stood out to me (other than the refs swallowing their whistles as it took Orlando 8 seconds to get the ball across halfcourt)... Nelson passes it up after being double teamed in the backcourt. Rush hangs back and allows Carter to catch it. It was a dangerous pass and I thought it was one which could have been stolen by an alert defender. I think cerebral Mike D. would have stolen it, he would have anticipated the pass and picked it off. Rush may be the better athlete and defender but I felt he was sort of in a reactive daze on this play.

vnzla81
11-22-2010, 11:27 AM
People always are quick to knock Mike D, but in the final 20 seconds something stood out to me (other than the refs swallowing their whistles as it took Orlando 8 seconds to get the ball across halfcourt)... Nelson passes it up after being double teamed in the backcourt. Rush hangs back and allows Carter to catch it. It was a dangerous pass and I thought it was one which could have been stolen by an alert defender. I think cerebral Mike D. would have stolen it, he would have anticipated the pass and picked it off. play.

Cerebral Mike Dunleavy? :wtf2:
If Mike had those celebrals and high IQ everybody keeps talking about, he would know that for his guy not to score he should be closer than five feet away from the guy.

If he was such a smart player he would know not to jack up shot after shot everytime he gets the ball.

Hicks
11-22-2010, 12:04 PM
The sooner we don't ask Danny to play off the dribble in crunch time, the better. I'm fine with his handles during the broader part of the game, but when it gets down to the wire, I want him coming off a screen (or two).

ReggiesUncle
11-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Dunleavy cost them this game! he gave up at least 3 wide open 3s that were made. He also missed a ton of shots! i hate him so much (as a bball player) and am sick of seeing him in a pacers uni

Trader Joe
11-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Please, he was never pushed out. I watched the game twice, once live and once this morning. He was never pushed anywhere by anybody. Orlando made adjustments and Roy simply never went down low in the second half.

I have to question if you were watching the same game then. Dwight physically man handled Roy in the second half. Roy refused to establish the same position. If you guys honestly want me to believe that Jim O'Brien has two playbooks he uses for the first half and the second half, I'm going to have to call B.S.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 01:01 PM
I have to question if you were watching the same game then. Dwight physically man handled Roy in the second half. Roy refused to establish the same position. If you guys honestly want me to believe that Jim O'Brien has two playbooks he uses for the first half and the second half, I'm going to have to call B.S.

Im going to go ahead and ask you the same thing. Roy played the first 5 minutes of the 3rd before being taken out due to foul trouble. He than came back in at the start of the 4th only to come out after only playing 2 minutes(he came out after his 5th foul with 10:06 to go). He didn't come back in until 3:46 left in the game and left the game with 9 seconds to go when JOB put Dun in there to have all 3 pt shooters in. He played a total of 10 minutes the entire second half due to early foul trouble therefore he was never able to get going in the 2nd.

When he was in he was playing cautiously and if you watched the game you could tell right away he wasn't going to be as effective in the 2nd, the Magic also adjusted and went right at him right away to take him out of the game and it worked. Dwight Howard had a total of 8 pts and 5 rebs in the second half during the time Roy was in. I didn't see any physically man handling going on by Howard, though in the first half I saw Roy physically man handle Dwight. Had Roy kept his fouls down early this would of been a masterpiece by Roy, Dwight was helpless in the first half. Roy looked like the 4 time all-star that Howard is and Howard looked like Cherokee Parks thanks to Roy in the first half.

The refs were awful, Orlando shot 9 more free throws than we did and were called for 7 less fouls than we were, many calls were questionable. We play them 2 more times this year, make sure you watch. Roy is a different, more complete player this year.

daschysta
11-22-2010, 01:04 PM
I have to question if you were watching the same game then. Dwight physically man handled Roy in the second half. Roy refused to establish the same position. If you guys honestly want me to believe that Jim O'Brien has two playbooks he uses for the first half and the second half, I'm going to have to call B.S.

It's not JOB as much as Roy's fouls this game. It's hard to get going when you pick up stupid, stupid fouls like Roy's 5th. Kudo's to the magic though. Attacking Roy and getting him into foul trouble is still their doing. Howard is a handful.

Trader Joe
11-22-2010, 01:04 PM
No doubt Roy manhandled Howard in the first half, and yes the fouls played a role, but Roy will have to learn how to play with those to a certain extent. Howard had 3 in the first half and didn't pick up a single one after that. You can't allow that to happen if you're Roy. Even if your time on the court is limited due to fouls.

ReggiesUncle
11-22-2010, 01:13 PM
Roy needs to bulk up to be able to handle Howard because he is a beast! I would rather Roy have gained 20 lbs over the summer than lost it because he is too thin to be a powerful center imo

unless he develops into a ewing/olajuwan and gets some post up turnoaround floaters :)

Trader Joe
11-22-2010, 01:14 PM
Ugh, please no. That is the last thing I want. If Roy gains any weight I will be pissed.

daschysta
11-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Roy does NOT need to bulk up. He isn't a power center and his primary offensive weapon is the hook, which is a vertical thing. He'll learn to get position better, which is all bulking up would really help with. I like this quicker Roy, which has partially been the reason he has been ablet o avoid foul trouble for the most part to begin with.

If you recall, even when Roy was around 270 he still prefered to go for the dainty layup as opposed to dunking the ball, his weight isn't why he isn't doing it, and the first half of this game proved that he can still lay the hammer down now any way when he has the mind to.

Mackey_Rose
11-22-2010, 01:19 PM
Defending players in the post has not been Josh's issue when it comes to getting in foul trouble. The lone exception to this was the San Antonio game when Blair got the better of him early, but then Josh adjusted and proceeded to keep Blair totally silenced the rest of the game.

His problem has been he's been too aggressive with his help defense. He doesn't seem willing to give up a layup if he's in the vicinity. Our perimeter defenders seem unwilling to take a foul to prevent an easy bucket, but we have Josh and Tyler, and to a bit of a lesser extent, Roy, who are the complete opposite. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough front court depth where these fouls are acceptable. In certain siutations, I'd rather they gave up the occasional 2 points and save themselves the foul trouble. I'm glad we have that physical presence in the paint finally, but they need to do what is best for the team.

We can really only afford to go three deep in the front court, so if it means we need to give up a couple points here and there to keep those three on the court, I think it makes sense.

I posted this before the Houston game, but it came back to bite us again on Saturday night.

Roy should have been smarter than to take his 5th foul on Howard in that situation. Hopefully he will learn from his mistake.

Honestly, I blame JOB's defensive philosophy. He asks so much out of our bigs, but doesn't expect nearly enough from the perimeter players. Our bigs get killed for not defending well enough on the pick and roll, but for me, the problem is that the perimeter players are not working hard enough to get through the screen and then bigs have to help way too much. Dunleavy is the worst about it, but Granger and Collison haven't fought through ball screens enough either.

With the exception of Granger in the last few games, our perimeter defense has been pathetic.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 01:20 PM
I posted this before the Houston game, but it came back to bite us again on Saturday night.

Roy should have been smarter than to take his 5th foul on Howard in that situation. Hopefully he will learn from his mistake.

Honestly, I blame JOB's defensive philosophy. He asks so much out of our bigs, but doesn't expect nearly enough from the perimeter players. Our bigs get killed for not defending well enough on the pick and roll, but for me, the problem is that the perimeter players are not working hard enough to get through the screen and then bigs have to help way too much. Dunleavy is the worst about it, but Granger and Collison haven't fought through ball screens enough either.

With the exception of Granger in the last few games, our perimeter defense has been pathetic.

Rush has been playing some lockdown defense

Mackey_Rose
11-22-2010, 01:27 PM
Rush has been playing some lockdown defense

Rush is, without a doubt, our most consistent defender, and it was my mistake for not mentioning him.

But I don't even think about it being that big of a deal while Dunleavy is still getting a ridiculous 30+ minutes.

He is probably the 4th best wing on the team and he gets playing time like he's an all-star.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 01:29 PM
Roy needs to bulk up to be able to handle Howard because he is a beast! I would rather Roy have gained 20 lbs over the summer than lost it because he is too thin to be a powerful center imo

unless he develops into a ewing/olajuwan and gets some post up turnoaround floaters :)

1st Half Stats:
Roy Hibbert: 17 PTS (8-14FG, 1-3FT) 6 REBS (4 OFF) 2 AST
Dwight Howard: 6 PTS (2-5FG, 2-4FT) 2 REBS(0 OFF)


Who handled who? Roy losing that weight this summer has done nothing but help him and in a major way. Did you watch this game? Or just assume we played Orlando who has Howard and we lost so Dwight must of dominated Roy? It was the other way around and I cant wait for the next two matchups we have with Orlando. Believe this or not....Roy is a top 5 center in the NBA this year.

Out of all Centers this year Roy is ranked 4th in rebounds per game, 5th in points per game, 2nd in per assists, and 5th in blocks per game. All of this while ranking only 9th in minutes per game at 30.9. He also has 5 double doubles so far through the first 11 games. These ranks go up against guys like Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, Joakim Noah, Al Horford, David Lee, Al Jefferson, Andrew Bogut, Marc Gasol, and Brook Lopez. Roy is one of the best 5 centers in the NBA, IMO.

vnzla81
11-22-2010, 01:30 PM
Rush is, without a doubt, our most consistent defender, and it was my mistake for not mentioning him.

But I don't even think about it being that big of a deal while Dunleavy is still getting a ridiculous 30+ minutes.

He is probably the 4th best wing on the team and he gets playing time like he's an all-star.

But what about his amazing team defense and his high basketball IQ? That counts for something right? Right? (green)

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 01:32 PM
But what about his amazing team defense and his high basketball IQ? That counts for something right? Right? (green)

lol ya but i was happy Rush close out the last game that was a step in the right direction. Dunleavy barley played in the 4th but still had 30+ mins:rolleyes:. UGGGGGGG

Trader Joe
11-22-2010, 01:33 PM
If Rush keeps up 14-15 ppg, it's only a matter of time til he replaces Dun IMO, but we'll have to wait and see.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 01:35 PM
also i think Rush played more than Mike. But ya i agree we have to start playing mike fewer mintues.

Sookie
11-22-2010, 01:39 PM
Rush is, without a doubt, our most consistent defender, and it was my mistake for not mentioning him.

But I don't even think about it being that big of a deal while Dunleavy is still getting a ridiculous 30+ minutes.

He is probably the 4th best wing on the team and he gets playing time like he's an all-star.

With Collison and Dun starting together, we're going to have bad perimeter defense.

Which is why Brandon should be starting..Him and Granger would make up for Collison just fine.

Mackey_Rose
11-22-2010, 01:43 PM
also i think Rush played more than Mike. But ya i agree we have to start playing mike fewer mintues.

In the Magic game, Mike played 31 minutes and Rush played 29. Not a big difference, but way too many for Dunleavy.

He is averaging 33 minutes per game. Rush is averaging 26.5. I don't understand how anyone can argue that Dunleavy has earned more than 30 minutes every night.

pacer4ever
11-22-2010, 01:47 PM
In the Magic game, Mike played 31 minutes and Rush played 29. Not a big difference, but way too many for Dunleavy.

He is averaging 33 minutes per game. Rush is averaging 26.5. I don't understand how anyone can argue that Dunleavy has earned more than 30 minutes every night.

Mike should get 15-23 mins at backup SF

ReggiesUncle
11-22-2010, 02:27 PM
1st Half Stats:
Roy Hibbert: 17 PTS (8-14FG, 1-3FT) 6 REBS (4 OFF) 2 AST
Dwight Howard: 6 PTS (2-5FG, 2-4FT) 2 REBS(0 OFF)


Who handled who? Roy losing that weight this summer has done nothing but help him and in a major way. Did you watch this game? Or just assume we played Orlando who has Howard and we lost so Dwight must of dominated Roy? It was the other way around and I cant wait for the next two matchups we have with Orlando. Believe this or not....Roy is a top 5 center in the NBA this year.

Out of all Centers this year Roy is ranked 4th in rebounds per game, 5th in points per game, 2nd in per assists, and 5th in blocks per game. All of this while ranking only 9th in minutes per game at 30.9. He also has 5 double doubles so far through the first 11 games. These ranks go up against guys like Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, Joakim Noah, Al Horford, David Lee, Al Jefferson, Andrew Bogut, Marc Gasol, and Brook Lopez. Roy is one of the best 5 centers in the NBA, IMO.

thanks for awaring me of how roy is a top 5 center...lol

he is my favorite player on the team and yes i was at the game...and yes i voted for him for the all star team and if he doesnt make its a rigged system

that being said howard was taking jumpers in the first half and then decided to body up roy in the 2nd half...did you watch the game? lol

roy as long as most centers in the league cant body up against howard because he is so physical in the paint

i dont need you telling me about stats i already know about im just saying id like to see him bulk up (w muscle, not fat obviously)

IndyPacer
11-22-2010, 02:35 PM
roy as long as most centers in the league cant body up against howard because he is so physical in the paint

i dont need you telling me about stats i already know about im just saying id like to see him bulk up (w muscle, not fat obviously)

I don't like that idea at all. Taller centers almost always end up with chronic problems with their feet, and added bulk would also worsen one of Hibbert's biggest weaknesses, foot speed.

I think Hibbert is fine at his current weight. If you're trying to figure out a way to outmuscle Dwight Howard, that's just not going to happen. He's a beast.

IndyPacer
11-22-2010, 02:45 PM
With Collison and Dun starting together, we're going to have bad perimeter defense.

Which is why Brandon should be starting..Him and Granger would make up for Collison just fine.

Rush's skillset just seems to compliment the starters better than those of Dunleavy. We finally have point guards to direct the offense, and Granger and Hibbert are going to be doing most of the scoring in that group. What they need is accurate shooting from the outside and a strong perimeter defender (and of course rebounding at the PF position). That sounds much more like Rush than Dunleavy to me. Dunleavy could contribute much more in the second unit. Dunleavy's "legendary" basketball IQ would actually be pretty handy helping some of the younger guys, such as Paul George, who is obviously going to be lost for awhile being so young and raw.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 02:47 PM
thanks for awaring me of how roy is a top 5 center...lol

he is my favorite player on the team and yes i was at the game...and yes i voted for him for the all star team and if he doesnt make its a rigged system

that being said howard was taking jumpers in the first half and then decided to body up roy in the 2nd half...did you watch the game? lol

roy as long as most centers in the league cant body up against howard because he is so physical in the paint

i dont need you telling me about stats i already know about im just saying id like to see him bulk up (w muscle, not fat obviously)

Im going to guess your 12-13 yrs old from reading this and BTW Roy did bulk up in the offseason by losing weight turning it into muscle. He is now down to just 7% body fat. If you read my other posts you would of saw the Roy only played 10 minutes in the 2nd half cause of foul trouble. Had he not been in foul trouble you would of seen Hibbert body up Howard the entire game, not just the 1st half which he did.

Roy owned Howard and he showed everyone, even you if you payed attention, that your theory of Howard being impossible to body up cause he is so physical is wrong. Howard was able to do so well in the 2nd half cause of Roy's foul trouble and that is the only reason, they took Hibbert out of the game so Dwight could do his thing since he wasn't doing $*** with Roy in the game. Why is it, do you think, that Dwight's first 3 shots of the game were 10-15 ft jump shots?

This is nothing new, Roy vs. Dwight. Last year in our 2nd game vs. Orlando Roy basically took Dwight out of the game offensively. Howard finished with 15 rebs but get this: He finished with 11 points on 2-6FG and 7-12FT! He also turned the ball over 5 times. Roy on the other hand was 10-19FG, 6-9FT with 26 pts, 8 rebs, 4 blks, 3 asts, and only 2 to's. Howard was the one who fouled out in that game.

Roy is going to give Howard aka Superman a tough time for years to come. Dwight is a dominate force but I like Roy as the more complete traditional center of the two.

ReggiesUncle
11-22-2010, 03:04 PM
well you are close im 6 yrs old! and i love how you say in our 2nd game last yr? you must be on the team! you must actually be roy! roy i love you i mean no disrespect just calling it how i see it!

have a nice day

Trader Joe
11-22-2010, 03:16 PM
Look, I don't see how we can say Roy needs to bulk up. Anyone who saw JO's plummet from elite to injury prone after adding extra muscle should know that is not a smart move.

croz24
11-22-2010, 03:28 PM
when roy isn't having to help out every time a pacer gets burned by an opponent driving to the basket, he is a very good defensive player who can handle his own against the best. i think roy has proven that he is the more skilled basketball player between he and howard and i can't wait to watch hibbert against the current best big in the game in pau gasol. also, adding weight would not be a wise move on hibbert's behalf. very few bigs can handle large amounts of weight while sustaining their game and health for several seasons. i don't think hibbert is one of those players.

Since86
11-22-2010, 03:29 PM
Look, I don't see how we can say Roy needs to bulk up. Anyone who saw JO's plummet from elite to injury prone after adding extra muscle should know that is not a smart move.

Just because JO couldn't handle it, doesn't mean that Roy couldn't. Everyone is different.

But I agree with you that he shouldn't.

daschysta
11-22-2010, 03:34 PM
Just because JO couldn't handle it, doesn't mean that Roy couldn't. Everyone is different.

But I agree with you that he shouldn't.

This is true, but I think on average it holds true. Very few bigs can carry so much weight, play big minutes and avoid early knee problems.

I prefer quick Roy to plodding Roy anyhow.

Hibbert
11-22-2010, 03:37 PM
well you are close im 6 yrs old! and i love how you say in our 2nd game last yr? you must be on the team! you must actually be roy! roy i love you i mean no disrespect just calling it how i see it!

have a nice day

Unlike you I guess, I'm a Pacers fan, born and raised. Every year I watch every game and every game I'm rooting for them. They could go the next 5, 10, 20 years without winning a single game and I would still be a Pacers fan and still root for them. I use "our" because I feel strongly about the Pacers and feel a part of the team, any die hard fan of any team knows what I'm talking about. Your post was a failed attempt for whatever you were trying to do, if you don't want me or anyone else commenting on what you have to say than don't bother posting I guess. You have your opinion and I have mine. Just try harder next time not to speak on what you don't know and you won't feel insulted or offened and have to make another immature post like this.

Jon Theodore
11-22-2010, 03:46 PM
ReggiesUncle is my new favorite poster.

Jon Theodore
11-22-2010, 03:47 PM
Also if ReggiesUncle is 6 years old, I would HOPE that every posts he makes will be "immature."

ksuttonjr76
11-22-2010, 11:14 PM
:bs:. I'm preparing myself for a 6-6 record after the Miami Heat game.

I called it :dance:!