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Trader Joe
11-19-2010, 02:41 PM
1.) Granger's Defense: Pacer fans should send Team USA a big fat thank you note for sticking Granger on team USA. A couple of reasons, first Granger got glued to the bench for two things IMO, his defense and his passing. Well, these two things have been vastly improved this season. Now, why? Defense has to go back to Granger putting more focus on it, but I also want to point something else out, who was Granger likely matched up against in scrimmages for Team USA...Kevin Durant. What better way to improve your defense than playing against one of the most complete scorers in the NBA for the entire summer. Danny's passing has been a bit of a revelation, but overall I think the game has just completely slowed down for him ans he's seeing things before they happen.
He's an all-star right now without any doubt in my mind, and if his free throw attempts continue to go up, he'll be doing all this while still posting 25 PPG, and he's doing it more efficiently than he has his entire career.

2.) Roy Hibbert: I'm beyond pleased with his rebounding and defense, but I want to see him, dunk the ball like he did last night EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. Roy will almost always be the tallest guy on the court this season, he needs to throw it down like he did yesterday and not allow himself to miss the bunnies. I think he's figuring that out, and I'm excited to watch it unfold.

3.) Jim O'Brien: Everyone's favorite coach has been much better this season. Even as everyone has predicted that James Posey will move in front of Josh and Tyler in the rotation, JOB has stuck with it. Hans even remained the first big man off the bench last night after coming back from injury and Posey putting together some quality games. And while we've seen the small ball, we've also seen some big ball, Granger-Posey-Hans-Hibbert all on the court? Yes, please.

4.) TJ Ford vs. AJ Price: After the way JOB has been very fair with Hans, I must assume that Ford is playing above Price right now in an attempt to raise his trade value. It's not terribly upsetting because TJ has been better than you would expect, but I will still be excited if the day comes when Price is backing up Collison just because it looks like it could really be something else to watch.

5.) Finally, is everyone aware that right now the Pacers are giving up 98.6 PPG and that is good for 11th in the NBA? The best ranking O'Brien has had as the Pacers head coach. Our rebounding and scoring numbers are still solid as well.

Infinite MAN_force
11-19-2010, 02:48 PM
Granger's defense has been ELITE the last two games. He has gone from being a guy people thought was a liability to being the best on the team.

I wouldn't have even thought he would be capable of defending Eric Gordon, let alone shutting him down. Being that sort of two way player brings him much closer to the upper echelon of NBA players. He has to keep it up though.


5.) Finally, is everyone aware that right now the Pacers are giving up 98.6 PPG and that is good for 11th in the NBA?

I'm going to go ahead and dub this the "Troy Murphy effect"

BillS
11-19-2010, 02:53 PM
I'm going to go ahead and dub this the "Troy Murphy effect"

Can't be, since PD Conventional Wisdom is that Dun is worse.

Day-V
11-19-2010, 02:56 PM
Can't be, since PD Conventional Wisdom is that Dun is worse.

I disagree on that. I think the conventional wisdom is that Dun is just vulnerable in certain areas. Even though his man-defense is Troy Murphy-horrible, he at least contributes with loose balls, steals, and yes, rebounds. Troy, on the other hand, was a turnstile.



Back on topic, while I'm excited about Danny's recent improvement on defense, I also have liked his driving ability. Not only is he taking it to the hoop, but he's not hesitating on deciding what he wants to do.

Trophy
11-19-2010, 02:58 PM
Consistency is the big thing moving forward.

We have good players who are capable of making it to the playoffs and they have to play their best every game.

cdash
11-19-2010, 03:08 PM
I agree with most of your thoughts. I thanked you because you didn't mention the need to fire JOB or throw Dunleavy under a bus.

I am actually impressed with the team, and honestly the coaching this season. The defense has been much improved. The offense is hit or miss. I'm impressed with the players responding to the coach and the system. Last year right up until the crazy winning streak that killed our lottery odds, we played like a team that hated it's coach and had given up on the season. I really figured that would carry over into this year, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

pizza guy
11-19-2010, 03:39 PM
I was thinking about starting a similar thread, but you beat me to it. I pretty much agree with everything you said to, so I'll just ask the question that I planned on asking in my post.

Are the Pacers, as Bill Parcells would say, what their record is? Are they a .500 team all year? Is that the cap for these guys?

Or, can we throw the record out the window and say that they're a team that is gelling together with new pieces, and over the course of an 82 game season, they could be a .300 team or a .600 team?

What's telling to me is that we've had two games decided by 3 points (one loss, one win), and one 4 point loss. The other 7 games have been huge point differentials: -13, +27, -10, +14, +31, -26, +13. That tells me that this team is just young and learning. When they have it together, they really have it together. But when they take a night off (mentally, effort, or coaching), they really get beat up.

So, what is this team? It's been Jekyll and Hyde thus far, but are we more Jekyll or more Hyde?

--pizza

Since86
11-19-2010, 03:39 PM
Can't be, since PD Conventional Wisdom is that Dun is worse.

If Dun was worse than Troy, wouldn't you think that Dun would have been getting the majority of complaints while Murph was still in town?

Day-V
11-19-2010, 03:45 PM
Plus, I think deep down most (ok, some) Pacer fans want to see Dunleavy succeed. I know I do. Most people, on the other hand, just wanted Troy gone.

90'sNBARocked
11-19-2010, 03:48 PM
1.) Granger's Defense: Pacer fans should send Team USA a big fat thank you note for sticking Granger on team USA. A couple of reasons, first Granger got glued to the bench for two things IMO, his defense and his passing. Well, these two things have been vastly improved this season. Now, why? Defense has to go back to Granger putting more focus on it, but I also want to point something else out, who was Granger likely matched up against in scrimmages for Team USA...Kevin Durant. What better way to improve your defense than playing against one of the most complete scorers in the NBA for the entire summer. Danny's passing has been a bit of a revelation, but overall I think the game has just completely slowed down for him ans he's seeing things before they happen.
He's an all-star right now without any doubt in my mind, and if his free throw attempts continue to go up, he'll be doing all this while still posting 25 PPG, and he's doing it more efficiently than he has his entire career.

2.) Roy Hibbert: I'm beyond pleased with his rebounding and defense, but I want to see him, dunk the ball like he did last night EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. Roy will almost always be the tallest guy on the court this season, he needs to throw it down like he did yesterday and not allow himself to miss the bunnies. I think he's figuring that out, and I'm excited to watch it unfold.

3.) Jim O'Brien: Everyone's favorite coach has been much better this season. Even as everyone has predicted that James Posey will move in front of Josh and Tyler in the rotation, JOB has stuck with it. Hans even remained the first big man off the bench last night after coming back from injury and Posey putting together some quality games. And while we've seen the small ball, we've also seen some big ball, Granger-Posey-Hans-Hibbert all on the court? Yes, please.

4.) TJ Ford vs. AJ Price: After the way JOB has been very fair with Hans, I must assume that Ford is playing above Price right now in an attempt to raise his trade value. It's not terribly upsetting because TJ has been better than you would expect, but I will still be excited if the day comes when Price is backing up Collison just because it looks like it could really be something else to watch.

5.) Finally, is everyone aware that right now the Pacers are giving up 98.6 PPG and that is good for 11th in the NBA? The best ranking O'Brien has had as the Pacers head coach. Our rebounding and scoring numbers are still solid as well.

I second a lot of what you said, although I have a little disappointment at the shooting percentages of one Roy Hibbert

Mostly , and man this hurts my head, I have been pleasently suprised with the way Jim has coached this team

Of course I reserve the right to change if we get blown out by Orlando tomorrow :)

Day-V
11-19-2010, 03:51 PM
Of course I reserve the right to change if we get blown out by Orlando tomorrow :)

If there's any silver lining, it's that we always play Orlando tough at home.

Infinite MAN_force
11-19-2010, 04:00 PM
Plus, I think deep down most (ok, some) Pacer fans want to see Dunleavy succeed. I know I do. Most people, on the other hand, just wanted Troy gone.

Dunleavy is what he is defensively. My big complaint with him latley has been his inability to hit shots. I've come to expect his three pointers to clank, and outside of one miraculous quarter, more often than not they have clanked. Dude has to shoot well to justify being on the floor.

xBulletproof
11-19-2010, 04:10 PM
outside of one miraculous quarter, more often than not they have clanked.

In the 3 games since the game that had the "miraculous quarter" , he's made 16 of 31 shots. That's 52%. 7 of 17 from 3 point range. That's 41%. Looks to me like he just came out of his slump and he's fine now.

:confused:

Sookie
11-19-2010, 04:17 PM
Can't be, since PD Conventional Wisdom is that Dun is worse.

I think post defense is more important than perimeter defense, personally. Josh and Hibbert can cover a lot better for Dun, than Roy could cover for Troy.

1. I agree, I think the Team USA experience showed Danny that in order to be considered a great player, he has to play defense.

But I also think, that this season, he believes that it matters that he plays defense, and we have other offensive options so he CAN play defense. Some don't buy the "saving himself" argument..but all great players take "breaks"

I think the best players take their breaks on offense, but the Pacers couldn't afford that.

I also see a lot more hustle in Danny this season, that wasn't there last season. It's nice to see.

2. Roy Hibbert, his progression is like the typical post player. His defense and rebounding is much improved. But It's actually pretty typical that a young post player misses a lot of bunnies. As he gets older, that'll change. I think he needs, as said, to get "meaner" on offense. But he's clearly a motivated person, he knows what his problems are, and he'll fix them.

3. Jimmy..he's been better. Shades of last year have crept in a few times. But he's definitely been better.

4. TJ v AJ. I hope it's for trade value. Truth is, the Pacers have to trade him..or they get nothing for him because he's obviously not staying. TJ has been playing good for TJ..he doesn't kill the team..and what was once a turnover has now become an almost turnover. But Price actually helps the team..If it is just for trade value, that has got to be annoying for JOB, because Price runs his offense well..(Although, strangely, Price ran mostly PnRs last night, which was probably why he got so many assists. That *running the PnR* probably had to do with the lineup that was in though.)

5. I think that's the result of being a more balanced team, and clearly being better defensively. As I said, Dun's defense is bad, but Josh and Roy cover for him. You can't cover for a post defender.

Other notes, Josh is struggling. He is. I don't know what changed, my guess is the couple of games of foul trouble shook him a bit. He was playing quite well, particularly with Hibbert. I hope he's allowed to keep getting minutes though.

As for starting Tyler. Tyler's outplaying Josh. Heck, Tyler's probably better than Josh (and I keep going back and forth on that one..)

One thing I don't go back and forth on is that Tyler is a better scorer than Josh. And I really think, unless something with the second unit changes (Dun goes to the second unit, Price goes into the second unit..ect..) that Tyler needs to stay there because it's needed.

It's important to have some fire power off the bench, it really is. Especially when you have dynamic scorers in the starting line up (DC, Danny, Roy) and..none in the second unit (as it is now) That's really why I think think Dun should be in the second unit. I don't mind Dun like a lot of people do. But I think he tries to compete for shots with the starters, and doesn't supply anything that the starters don't bring. If we had a Tyler, Dun, Price (with Posey and Foster..or George and Foster..) second unit..we'd have a LOT of fire power off the bench..and if Josh gets it together, him and Rush would supply energy and defense (and take a backseat to the other scorers) to the starting lineup.

Just my thoughts though.

Infinite MAN_force
11-19-2010, 04:24 PM
In the 3 games since the game that had the "miraculous quarter" , he's made 16 of 31 shots. That's 52%. 7 of 17 from 3 point range. That's 41%. Looks to me like he just came out of his slump and he's fine now.

:confused:

My mistake. I was basing that some what off of recent memory with the Atlanta game (1-4 from three) and I really wasn't watching the cleveland game very closely (was at a bar).

I was very frustrated with his shooting early in the year.

BillS
11-19-2010, 04:55 PM
If Dun was worse than Troy, wouldn't you think that Dun would have been getting the majority of complaints while Murph was still in town?

Do I keep playing and answer this, or do I let it go? :chin:

what the heck...

Dun was injured and not playing the kind of minutes Murphy was, so people <i>thought</i> Troy was worse. Now, I guess they know better. There are even comments in the Troy Trade thread from folks who would trade Dunleavy for him "in a heartbeat". :zip:

duke dynamite
11-19-2010, 04:59 PM
If there's any silver lining, it's that we always play Orlando tough at home.
How is that a silver lining when we are 3-3 at home?

Since86
11-19-2010, 05:03 PM
Do I keep playing and answer this, or do I let it go? :chin:

what the heck...

Dun was injured and not playing the kind of minutes Murphy was, so people thought Troy was worse. Now, I guess they know better. There are even comments in the Troy Trade thread from folks who would trade Dunleavy for him "in a heartbeat". :zip:

I think trying to rationalize everything JOb has done has officially ruined your brain.

BillS
11-19-2010, 05:05 PM
I think trying to rationalize everything JOb has done has officially ruined your brain.

:jester:

90'sNBARocked
11-19-2010, 05:11 PM
Do I keep playing and answer this, or do I let it go? :chin:

what the heck...

Dun was injured and not playing the kind of minutes Murphy was, so people <i>thought</i> Troy was worse. Now, I guess they know better. There are even comments in the Troy Trade thread from folks who would trade Dunleavy for him "in a heartbeat". :zip:

yep that was me big guy :)

I admit, I never disliked Troy , and felt he was often judged unfairly. I know peole didnt like Jim's use of Troy, but I can honestly say right now that Murphy can help a lot more teams than Dun in my opinion. I think one team that Murphy would do extreemly well with is Orlando.

Dun , to me , is a little redundant with Granger, Rush, George. I also feel as much flack as Murphy got for his defense, Dun might actually be worse

So as painful as it sounds I for one, would have rather sent Dun packing then Murphy

Just my opinion though

Also I am starting to warm up to AJ, if he can do this on the road , I have no problem vanishing TJ

Gamble1
11-19-2010, 05:56 PM
If Dun was worse than Troy, wouldn't you think that Dun would have been getting the majority of complaints while Murph was still in town?
Two things here. I think both are bench players and both are over paid.

The difference to me is that Murphy had a guy behind him that deserved some of his minutes while Dun had a very underachieving sg in front of him who didn't have a problem getting minutes do to Dun's injuries/recovery.

Which one was more valueable? Probably the guy we traded for Collison.

Trader Joe
11-19-2010, 06:22 PM
Do I keep playing and answer this, or do I let it go? :chin:

what the heck...

Dun was injured and not playing the kind of minutes Murphy was, so people <i>thought</i> Troy was worse. Now, I guess they know better. There are even comments in the Troy Trade thread from folks who would trade Dunleavy for him "in a heartbeat". :zip:

Wasn't it really only one or two people advocating that?

BillS
11-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Wasn't it really only one or two people advocating that?

:jester::jester:

Though the idea that even one advocates it boggles my mind.

Day-V
11-19-2010, 06:41 PM
How is that a silver lining when we are 3-3 at home?

90s was implying that we might get blown out on Saturday. All I was saying is that the last few times we've played Orlando at Conseco, we've either won or hung right there with them when we had an obviously inferior roster.

Pacersalltheway10
11-19-2010, 08:06 PM
If we still had Troy Murphy, We would be giving up 102 PPG again. Simple. Remember the 5 game win streak from last season? It was also Troy's injury streak. Addition by substraction. Simple. I would not even want Troy coming off the bench for even 10 mins a game. even if he signed a minimum contract. In those 10 minutes, We could be up by 10 points then be down by 5.

daschysta
11-19-2010, 08:26 PM
pacers are also 7th in the league in fg% def, top 10 in point differential, get more rebounds and assists than their opponents, all while being 3rd in the league in free throw shooting xD