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k_lewis93
11-19-2010, 09:44 AM
I know a lot of people have been screaming get rid of Posey but I ask the question....why? In my opinion he has proven himself to be more then worthy to play. Obviously he isn't the greatest defensive player but offensively he comes around and hits shots right when we need them. Last night against the Clippers he went 4-7 from 3 point land and had 12 points. That isn't a lot of points but if you watched the game you would know that he made those shots when we needed them. He always makes them to try to bring us out of a shooting slump or makes them to put the game out of reach. He is a proven veteran who has won championships so I think trading Posey would be a awful move I really hope we keep him around.

smj887
11-19-2010, 09:54 AM
It won't break my heart if he does eventually get traded, but I agree, I think he's shown that he can be a solid roleplayer.

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 09:55 AM
If the next few games you are going to find out why he doesn't need to play more than 15min, he is a decent player to come off the bench when he is use the right way, the issue I have is that Jim is using him way too much and taking playing time from Hans and Josh because they can't shoot the three.

By the way I don't ever want to see Posey playing center ever again.

duke dynamite
11-19-2010, 09:55 AM
He reminds me of what Sam Perkins brought to this team. He can hit the three...at times, but doesn't really offer too much outside of that.

Indra
11-19-2010, 09:58 AM
He reminds me of what Sam Perkins brought to this team. He can hit the three...at times, but doesn't really offer too much outside of that.

He brings some pretty awesome knee socks to the team.

nerveghost
11-19-2010, 10:13 AM
I think his team defense his excellent - he seems to be always in the right place, even if his quickness is lacking.

SMosley21
11-19-2010, 10:19 AM
If the next few games you are going to find out why he doesn't need to play more than 15min, he is a decent player to come off the bench when he is use the right way, the issue I have is that Jim is using him way too much and taking playing time from Hans and Josh because they can't shoot the three.

By the way I don't ever want to see Posey playing center ever again.


He's only playing 19 minutes per game. You saying that extra 2 minutes each would benefit Josh and Tyler, or our team THAT much that it would make a difference?

:bs:

Deadshot
11-19-2010, 10:20 AM
He is a proven veteran who has won championships so I think trading Posey would be a awful move I really hope we keep him around.

This is all we've heard since he's been here - ok, he's got 2 rings, we get it. That in itself will do nothing for us at this point.

However, he has been hitting his shots lately and making some great hustle plays on defense and for loose balls. I also like that he is big enough to help stop guys who are posting up or backing down on him. The problem is that any athletic player he tries to guard will typically abuse him. Each and every night its hard to tell where to play him and what matchup will best suit him.

Trophy
11-19-2010, 10:46 AM
He's decent and a good player to have on your team, but I don't think he should be playing a huge role here because of the young talent.

The fact that Posey is not a PF and gets into the rotation is what really confuses me.

Although last night we saw a lot more of him at SF and even some SG.

tfarks
11-19-2010, 10:51 AM
JOB thought the trade was for Posey, with DC as a throw-in.

Kid Minneapolis
11-19-2010, 10:53 AM
I like Posey. I don't see any problem with the playing time he's gotten. He's earned it. He's been communicative, a team player, a veteran presence, and clutch.

Pacergeek
11-19-2010, 11:01 AM
he is better than Paul George

Gamble1
11-19-2010, 11:13 AM
JOB thought the trade was for Posey, with DC as a throw-in.
I don't believe that for a minute.

Posey with restricted minutes is a good thing. He brings a veteran presence and he is capable of scoring enough points to justify playing him. With how widely inconsistent our pf play is at the moment I don't have a problem with him stealing 10-15 minutes a game away from McBOB or Hans.

nerveghost
11-19-2010, 11:17 AM
you have to have a solid veteran presence in this league. just look what the clippers did last night - that should tell you why.

Unclebuck
11-19-2010, 11:19 AM
He knows how to play winning NBA basketball. I realize that sounds really simple, but that is hugely important.

imawhat
11-19-2010, 11:26 AM
I thought the play last night with Granger was symbolic. Posey was wide open but made the pass to a wide open Granger for three. He was willing to sacrifice to keep his teammates satisfied.

SMosley21
11-19-2010, 11:32 AM
I thought the play last night with Granger was symbolic. Posey was wide open but made the pass to a wide open Granger for three. He was willing to sacrifice to keep his teammates satisfied.

That was the play of the night for me. After Granger hit the shot, the Clippers called a timeout and you could see not only how detested they were but you could also see a great bond between DG and Posey. Posey gave him a look and Granger just smiled and they looked like they were just out there having fun. I like that.

jcouts
11-19-2010, 11:53 AM
James Posey is this team's version of a Derek Fisher. I hope he's here for a long time, personally.

The best way I can describe those two guys are as momentum busters. Basketball is a game of runs and when another team is surging or gaining momentum, guys like Posey and Fisher nearly always step in and take away the other team's momentum...or at least do something to mitigate it to the point that the younger players are suited to handle it. In the off nights when they can't do that, that's why there's a loss column.

We haven't had a guy like that for quite some time on the Pacers.

Posey is fearless when it comes to taking shots in critical situations, whether it be in crunch time or at a random point in the middle of the game when the other team is starting to go on a run and you need a big shot to crush their momentum, or at least slow it down a little. There may be games where it doesn't make a difference, but there may be other games, such as games we saw in the last couple of years when a team went on a 30-8 run because we didn't have that veteran guy to come in and find a way to hit a couple of shots to kill the other team's momentum at the 10-0 run mark.

Even if he misses the shots, it will be no worse than the guys taking the shots and missing them last couple of years. Say what you will about Danny or anyone we had last year or the year before, but if one of them were capable of doing that, we wouldn't have lost as many games as we did with teams coming back from 20 down to beat us. The difference with Posey is, the majority of the time, he won't miss those shots in those situations. I believe Jim will go to him in the lineup at points during the game when he feels momentum or energy turning the other team's way or may be about to turn the other team's way. If he's in the game when it happens, you may see Jim draw up a play for him to get a shot out of a timeout.

Guys like Posey and Fisher almost have this odd aura about them where the only time they seem to make shots is at that point where you say, "dangit, we almost had them, but there he is again...hitting that shot". They bring the other team back to reality, whether it's in a situation where a team is ahead of the Pacers and trying to expand the lead to double digits, or if we have the lead and the team is trying to cut it below 10. The games when Fisher has an off-night and isn't doing that, the Lakers usually lose.

Most nba players seem to get in a groove when momentum is going their way and the game is flowing downstream. Players like Posey and Fisher are the opposite. They thrive when momentum is going against them. They never seem to hit many game winners, but if it's a 2 point game, they hit shots to make it a 5 point game. Or if you're down 5, they hit shots to make it a two point game.

I believe his presence alone in those situations will result in at least 6-8 more wins this season in games that we might have lost last season without a guy like that...and if he continues to do what he can do, it will be tough to keep him out of the game during crunch-time in close games.

If Denver had a guy like Posey, I guarantee the we wouldn't have hit 20 straight shots and had a 54 point quarter in that game.

Kid Minneapolis
11-19-2010, 12:20 PM
Ya, Posey is a great "run-stopper".

Hicks
11-19-2010, 12:20 PM
he is better than Paul George

Sure, for now.

tfarks
11-19-2010, 12:45 PM
I don't believe that for a minute.

Sarchasm.

tfarks
11-19-2010, 12:47 PM
Oh my jcouts, thats even more fluff than a Dunleavy apologist could dish out.

PR07
11-19-2010, 12:48 PM
You've got a lot of young players on this team, it doesn't hurt to have a few veterans teach them how the game should be played both on and off the court. Posey's been a key player on a lot of championship teams. He may be taking a few minutes from our younger guys, but they need to be earning some of their minutes anyways.

Speed
11-19-2010, 12:50 PM
Love his savvy, but I'd still only play him 1.) he's hitting shots. 2.) has a good defensive match up

He should almost NEVER play SF, only PF.

He reminds me of watching the Legend games back in the day during all star weekend.

I think maybe its been too long since we've seen a really clever defensive player in the Blue and Gold, cuz folks are giving him way too much love.

When the season is over he should not have played over 17 mins a game average or something didn't go right, imo.

Day-V
11-19-2010, 01:38 PM
As tfarks can attest to,


I love me some James Posey. And i'm not ashamed to admit it.

dgranger17
11-19-2010, 01:39 PM
Love his savvy, but I'd still only play him 1.) he's hitting shots. 2.) has a good defensive match up

He should almost NEVER play SF, only PF.

He reminds me of watching the Legend games back in the day during all star weekend.

I think maybe its been too long since we've seen a really clever defensive player in the Blue and Gold, cuz folks are giving him way too much love.

When the season is over he should not have played over 17 mins a game average or something didn't go right, imo.

I started the year saying he should never play PF, but that's only because he was mostly rocking the 4 with Solly at the 5.

With Foster and Rush back, I'm in love with our lineup. I know it's only the Clippers, but Foster off the bench is out****ingstanding. Posey played a few minutes at the 3 with Price at 1, Granger at 2, Hansbrough at 4, and Foster at 5. That lineup (considering there's only 1 starter) is sick. Call me a homer or whatever, but there's arguably 5 defenders on the court with the lineup and 3 that can hit the three. All from a lineup with 4 reserve players.

Long story short... Larry Bird, you are our Savior

tfarks
11-19-2010, 01:53 PM
As tfarks can attest to,


I love me some James Posey. And i'm not ashamed to admit it.

Haha. There's no denying that.

jcouts
11-19-2010, 04:48 PM
Oh my jcouts, thats even more fluff than a Dunleavy apologist could dish out.

30 games from now, we'll see how much of it is fluff

id' like to just mention a few stats from last night's game...

Griffin and Posey were in the game at the same time for roughly 6 minutes and 45 seconds last night...all of it falling between between 2:17 left in Q1 and 6:48 left in Q4. During that period, Griffin's highlights were...

- Blake Griffin kicked ball
- Blake Griffin defensive rebound
- Blake Griffin defensive rebound
- Blake Griffin misses 18-foot jumper

adding up to 2 defensive rebounds, 0 assists, 0 blocks, 0 steals, 0 points, 0-1 from the field, 0-0 from the foul line and 0 offensive rebounds

whether or not they were matched up on one another the entire time, I'm not sure...but either way those numbers (or lack thereof) are coming from a rookie of the year candidate who also happens to be the team's second leading scorer and leader in rebounds, who put up 12 and 6 and shot 6-12 in his other 21 minutes on the court last night...

also to add in, during those 6 minutes and 45 seconds that both posey and griffin were on the court, the clippers scored a grand total of 3 points.

posey played 18 minutes between 2:17 left in Q1 and 6:48 left in Q4 and had a +23 +/-, including a 14-7 run in Q2 and a 21-10 run in Q4.

griffin played four primary segments in last night's game...just looking at scoring in each, he put up...

- 6 points in ~9 minutes (during q1)
- 4 points in ~7 minutes (during q2)
- 2 points in ~7 minutes (during q3)
- 0 points in ~4 minutes (during q4)

during the first two segments, james posey was not in the game at any point...during the later two, james posey was in the game for extended periods

we can pretend those 6 minutes and 45 seconds against Griffin or Posey's 18 minutes as a whole were irrelevant fluff and had nothing to do with runs and momentum if you want to...but, I don't believe they were irrelevant...at all.

all of those comparative stats were derived from the espn play-by-play log and box score

QuickRelease
11-19-2010, 05:02 PM
I agree with Duke on the Sam Perkins comparison, with this exception: I feel he provides a little bit more than Sam would if his shot wasn't falling. He's a bit of a better defender.

tfarks
11-19-2010, 05:14 PM
So Posey was involved in positive swings in a game where the Pacers blew out the hapless Clippers by almost 30, and a rookie struggled at times.

What a persuasive argument, great sample size, irrefutable correlation. Yes please lets wait 30 games shall we?

Gamble1
11-19-2010, 05:25 PM
I agree with Duke on the Sam Perkins comparison, with this exception: I feel he provides a little bit more than Sam would if his shot wasn't falling. He's a bit of a better defender.
What are you talking about?


http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/sports/basketball/indiana_pacers/2000/shaq_dunk.jpg

SMosley21
11-19-2010, 05:31 PM
What are you talking about?


http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/sports/basketball/indiana_pacers/2000/shaq_dunk.jpg

^^^ irrelevant post

As if there was anyone in the NBA who could guard Shaq at that point in his career.

Gamble1
11-19-2010, 05:41 PM
^^^ irrelevant post

As if there was anyone in the NBA who could guard Shaq at that point in his career.
Well the guy who tried the hardest was him.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_uo1n3tbj91Y/S6cAe_-jnJI/AAAAAAAAAeg/8OWiz4RZs7M/s512/B%C3%A3ng%20r%C3%A6%20NBA%2043.jpg

jcouts
11-19-2010, 05:46 PM
So Posey was involved in positive swings in a game where the Pacers blew out the hapless Clippers by almost 30, and a rookie struggled at times.

What a persuasive argument, great sample size, irrefutable correlation. Yes please lets wait 30 games shall we?

i don't think the word i have in mind for you at the moment is allowed in this forum :)

ok...so you disagree. fine.

what is your counterargument as to why he isn't relevant in that regard, for one game, the next thirty games or several years past and present? i'd like to hear it. we used to have interesting discussions on this board once upon a time beyond belittling one liner wisecracks. i'd like to see more of it again.

if i had enough time on my hands to sift through his career and cite all of the examples to support my statements in a larger "sample size" with "irrefutable correlation", i'd be happy to. in fact, i'd be happy to do just about anything other than belittle supportive and encouraging posts on this board about something other than firing jim. i live 5 states away now...this is my only lifeline to pacers basketball. hearing your one liners isn't why i'm here.

so let's hear it...what gives you such confidence against posey affecting runs and momentum in a positive way throughout the last 5 or 6 years of his career? Kid Minneapolis, feel free to hop in as well.

i won't even exclude the knee injury year in new orleans. toss that into your counterpoint...it's worth discussing.

tfarks
11-19-2010, 06:21 PM
Just a busy day man, but thanks for giving me a laugh. I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to call me bad names.

Let's not go crazy with the I came here to talk Pacers basketball stuff, the burden of proof was on you.

But since you requested, and I have a couple hours before I go embarrass myself with karaoke at a bar, let me make my point.

People tend to overrate players after wins, and if its not based purely on statistics it tends to err to more intangible/qualitative aspects. I take these things with a grain of salt. For example, I like to analyze baseball on its sabermetric side more so than its scouting side, even though I played the game my whole life and know what I see. The bias that occurs with the eye test is mostly an opinion thing, which leaves a wider grey area when discussing things.

Now, I never said Posey wasn't relevant. In fact I like Posey like 1/10th of what Day-V does, which is still a lot. Using a short part of the season though, for an old declining vet though is erroneous. He is what he is, a decent vet who had to be taken as rift-raft to make it possible to bring DC here. He is gonna do some good things, play decent defense and make some threes. His old body is also gonna show wear, and his three point shot is gonna go cold. So I'm not gonna get super-positive about him now and then hate him later after a 5 game losing streak.

I don't put much stock in his "fearlessness" to shoot, there are a lot more players who put up more critical shots in more critical situations. And I would rather have Collison or Danny or Roy take those much more often then I would Posey. They are better players period, there is no superlative you could throw out there for Posey's grittiness that will change those facts.

Also I don't buy the fact the Posey is a "run stopper" due to his savvy veteraness, and will hit a 3 that will suddenly stifle the opposing teams ability to score. His defense is adequate, if another team is going on a run lets see a better defensive squad, not a Posey 3-ball.

Guys like Posey and Fisher are useful, but the whole he hit that critical shot thing time and time again is cognitive bias in its purest form. They've missed many too, its just more surprising to the spectators because it wasn't Kobe or Gasol that came through during that possession. That's not to say they don't bring an additional element, because they play smart using their experience. But this doesn't make them magically better when the game is on the line, you just remember it that way. I could expand on this because again you just assume that Fisher and Posey are magical momentum stoppers based off some games you have seen, which bases your entire argument on a fallacy.

If Denver had a guy like Posey, I guarantee the we wouldn't have hit 20 straight shots and had a 54 point quarter in that game. - This statement has zero credibility. And although you think it helps your argument, it doesn't at all.

You just can't cherry pick 6 minutes out of a game and attribute causation to correlation. Yes Griffin struggled during that time period, the only thing you can take away from that is a randomized event, in which another game the results could be completely flipped depending on which player is hot. Only if a match up occurred over and over again, with similar results could you extrapolate a worthwhile argument. And I ask, how much direct involvement did Posey have on Griffin? I didn't get to see the game, but the last one I saw Posey got beat again and again by Josh Smith. Not exactly the great grizzled veteran leader I want playing. He sure didn't stop Smith's or the Hawks momentum.

This is why I call it fluff. You have formed an opinion based on a fallacy and you are stubborn in your belief. That's why I wisecrack. If I argued with everyone's opinion on something they saw during the game that without a doubt led to the outcome I would never leave the keyboard. So yes, let's wait 30 games and see where we stand with Posey. I believe he will be a contributor off the bench for 15-20 minutes, but not nearly the player you perceive him as. Good enough?

cordobes
11-19-2010, 07:03 PM
At the 4, Posey is a very good defender, except if matched up with very big PFs. There isn't one PF in the NBA who's too quick for Posey to defend.

He lost the quickness that allowed him to be an elite wing defender, but the other stuff - the intelligence, the smarts, the willigness, the ability to read plays, to smell where the danger is coming from, the grittiness - it's all there.

jcouts
11-19-2010, 07:04 PM
Much better.

I unfortunately don't have two hours at the moment to formulate a reply (wife completed her Ph.D. this week, so celebrations are soon ensuing)...but nonetheless, I appreciate you taking the time for discussion.

I will just say, believe me, I didn't just overrate him after this win, or what he's brought to the Pacers this season. In fact, I grimace when folks do that on here...I've never been a too high after a win, too low after a loss type of observer. I've been watching Posey fairly often as a player since around 2002 when I picked him up as a later pick in fantasy leagues for a couple of years. I grew to love how he played even through some of the attitude questions that sprung up surrounding him at times during that span.

Also, I've played basketball one way or another throughout most of my life as well, with and against players who were way out of my league at times. So, it's not as if I'm formulating spontaneous opinions based solely on highlight videos or a few casually observed games without any sort of practical background. You know as well as I do that there are always X factors in the game of basketball that specific measures and objectives can't ever accurately represent. I very much believe Posey is a guy with certain X factors along the lines of what I'm getting at, that I'm finding out are very tough to explain :)

But, over the course of the next 30 games and beyond, I look forward to the back and forth.

tfarks
11-19-2010, 07:07 PM
He lost the quickness that allowed him to be an elite wing defender, but the other stuff - the intelligence, the smarts, the willigness, the ability to read plays, to smell where the danger is coming from, the grittiness - it's all there.

A lot of other players have this, and they're more athletic. I don't understand the insistence to inflate value to a player. Let him smell danger and hit a couple 3's 15-20 minutes a game. But I'm not at all convinced Posey is an integral cog in the Pacers' playoff machine, he's very replaceable in spite of his veteran grit.

Again, I like Posey and the value he brings. But I'm not buying the priceless intangibles rhetoric.

Eleazar
11-19-2010, 07:10 PM
Posey has a role on this team. That role is not to play 20 minutes at the PF position. His role should be to play 5 to 15 minutes depending on situation and how well he is playing as a SF.

tfarks
11-19-2010, 07:14 PM
Well jcouts that means congratulations are definitely in order, that's impressive and I bet she's looking to celebrate. I completed my master's in June and am contemplating a PhD personally. And yes, X factors are hard to explain. That's why I'm tough to convince. I think too many people sit back nodding their head in agreement when there's so many variables. I think we just disagree on the value, which like I mentioned is a grey area.

Not too long back I made several posts on Posey playing in clutch situations, as someone who wasn't great but good enough for the Pacers. If he does that for this team and helps them into the playoffs I will be ecstatic. But ya, I'm waiting at least 30 games to see what is and what isn't sustainable.

Kemo
11-19-2010, 08:42 PM
I very much believe Posey is a guy with certain X factors along the lines of what I'm getting at, that I'm finding out are very tough to explain :)

+100

I have been , in the back of my mind , coming to the conclusion that Posey IS our "x-factor" that this team sorely needs right now.
I know, that even quite a few of you on here have been talking of our need for an X-Factor type of roleplayer who can come off the bench and turn the momentum over in our favor during the course of a game..
Posey is it IMO , and a pretty good one at that ...

.

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 08:48 PM
+100

I have been , in the back of my mind , coming to the conclusion that Posey IS our "x-factor" that this team sorely needs right now.
I know, that even quite a few of you on here have been talking of our need for an X-Factor type of roleplayer who can come off the bench and turn the momentum over in our favor during the course of a game..
Posey is it IMO , and a pretty good one at that ...

.

Now Posey is the Pacers X factor? :laugh:





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cordobes
11-19-2010, 08:54 PM
A lot of other players have this, and they're more athletic. I don't understand the insistence to inflate value to a player. Let him smell danger and hit a couple 3's 15-20 minutes a game. But I'm not at all convinced Posey is an integral cog in the Pacers' playoff machine, he's very replaceable in spite of his veteran grit.

Again, I like Posey and the value he brings. But I'm not buying the priceless intangibles rhetoric.

What intangibles rhetoric? Why do you disagree with from what I wrote, what do you think it was an inflation of the player's value? Can you be specific? I'm struggling to understand your point.

I agree he's good for 20 mpg in this team. A little more or a little less depending on the matchups. At least until Hansbrough settles his game.

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 08:56 PM
He knows how to play winning NBA basketball. I realize that sounds really simple, but that is hugely important.

Anybody could play winning basketball if their teammates are Shaq, Wade, KG, Pierce,Rondo or Allen, this thing that he knows how to play winning basketball is so overrated that is not even funny.

beast23
11-19-2010, 08:58 PM
At the 4, Posey is a very good defender, except if matched up with very big PFs. There isn't one PF in the NBA who's too quick for Posey to defend.

He lost the quickness that allowed him to be an elite wing defender, but the other stuff - the intelligence, the smarts, the willigness, the ability to read plays, to smell where the danger is coming from, the grittiness - it's all there.
An important footnote to make regarding your post is that many of the items that you mention in your second paragraph are qualities that one does not gain through coaching. Many of these qualities can be improved through experience, but the greater percentage of each quality is something within the player himself... either he has it or he doesn't it.

I definitely agree that Posey has these qualities.

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 09:00 PM
At the 4, Posey is a very good defender, except if matched up with very big PFs. There isn't one PF in the NBA who's too quick for Posey to defend. He lost the quickness that allowed him to be an elite wing defender, but the other stuff - the intelligence, the smarts, the willigness, the ability to read plays, to smell where the danger is coming from, the grittiness - it's all there.

So Jsmith destroyed Posey with his quickness but he is not quick enough? how about Amare? not quick enough either? talking about overrating a bench player.

cordobes
11-19-2010, 09:03 PM
So Jsmith destroyed Posey with his quickness but he is not quick enough? how about Amare? not quick enough either? talking about overrating a bench player.

In what plays has Smith destroyed Posey with his quickness?

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 09:07 PM
In what plays has Smith destroyed Posey with his quickness?

In all of them?

cordobes
11-19-2010, 09:12 PM
In all of them?

All of them are dozens of possessions. Can you point out the exact plays, please?

I watched the game and I honestly don't remember. I recall a couple of post-ups, some jumpers and transition baskets. Plays where Smith benefited from a quickness advantage, I really don't remember, maybe I'm forgetting.

What kind of plays should I look at? Is it enough to pull out all Smith's scores or you're talking about plays where Smith didn't score?

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 09:18 PM
All of them are dozens of possessions. Can you point out the exact plays, please?

I watched the game and I honestly don't remember. I recall a couple of post-ups, some jumpers and transition baskets. Plays where Smith benefited from a quickness advantage, I really don't remember, maybe I'm forgetting.

What kind of plays should I look at? Is it enough to pull out all Smith's scores or you're talking about plays where Smith didn't score?

When I talk about quickness I talk about a player overpowering the other player, been able to spin, been able to be quick enough to make a move to score, that is what Jsmith was doing to Posey all night long, I think your definition of quickness is somebody that outruns the other guy, that is not what I mean.

Trader Joe
11-19-2010, 09:22 PM
Everyone looks at Posey and sees Big Smooth. I look at Posey and see Byron Scott.

cdash
11-19-2010, 09:24 PM
When I talk about quickness I talk about a player overpowering the other player, been able to spin, been able to be quick enough to make a move to score, that is what Jsmith was doing to Posey all night long, I think your definition of quickness is somebody that outruns the other guy, that is not what I mean.

I think your definition of "quickness" is everyone else's definition of "athleticism."

Trader Joe
11-19-2010, 09:25 PM
When I talk about quickness I talk about a player overpowering the other player,

This is not quickness.

Smith took Posey to school using his height and his strength. Josh Smith is very underrated for how strong he is, and when you combine that with his leaping ability he was a tough cover. He rarely was ever facing up Posey and driving him around with quickness thought.

Trader Joe
11-19-2010, 09:25 PM
I think your definition of "quickness" is everyone else's definition of "athleticism."

Basically beat me to the punch.

cordobes
11-19-2010, 09:27 PM
When I talk about quickness I talk about a player overpowering the other player, been able to spin, been able to be quick enough to make a move to score, that is what Jsmith was doing to Posey all night long, I think your definition of quickness is somebody that outruns the other guy, that is not what I mean.

My definition of quickness is quickness, somebody that beats the other guy to a spot by being quicker - taking him off the dribble, or with a cut, or with a spin move in the post. Overpowering is a lot different than quickness. Of course there are lots of PFs that can outmuscle Posey. By your definition of quickness, every made shot in the NBA results of a quickness advantage. Do you think that when Shaq scores on Ibaka it's because he's destroying him with his quickness too?

Smith scored twice on 2 post plays vs. Posey - but he get the shot off by backing him down, not with quickness. Beyond that, he hit contested jumpers and transition shots.

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 09:28 PM
I think your definition of "quickness" is everyone else's definition of "athleticism."

That could be another definition as well, must of the athletic guys in the NBA are quick, there has to be a combination of both I think Jsmith has both.

Brad8888
11-19-2010, 09:40 PM
All of them are dozens of possessions. Can you point out the exact plays, please?

I watched the game and I honestly don't remember. I recall a couple of post-ups, some jumpers and transition baskets. Plays where Smith benefited from a quickness advantage, I really don't remember, maybe I'm forgetting.

What kind of plays should I look at? Is it enough to pull out all Smith's scores or you're talking about plays where Smith didn't score?

No exact plays here, but defensively Posey either has an established position within the team concept well before basically anyone tries to drive past him and is effective in maintaining that position relative to others on a given play, or he simply stays out of the way because he recognizes that he no longer has the ability to stay in front of his man one-on-one due to his lack of quickness, and is a huge liability defensively in those circumstances in my opinion. Smith is only one example of a player Posey can't hope to match up with defensively in that commonplace scenario, especially when the Pacers defense gets stretched more than it ordinarily would due to playing a faster tempo where the other team also joins in playing the faster tempo.

vnzla81
11-19-2010, 09:41 PM
My definition of quickness is quickness, somebody that beats the other guy to a spot by being quicker - taking him off the dribble, or with a cut, or with a spin move in the post. Overpowering is a lot different than quickness. Of course there are lots of PFs that can outmuscle Posey. By your definition of quickness, every made shot in the NBA results of a quickness advantage. Do you think that when Shaq scores on Ibaka it's because he's destroying him with his quickness too?
Smith scored twice on 2 post plays vs. Posey - but he get the shot off by backing him down, not with quickness. Beyond that, he hit contested jumpers and transition shots.

Shaq used quickness and power to score on people, now he only use his power.

In your definition about quickness I think is hard for any power forward to have the ability to take somebody off the dribble, Odom is guy that comes to mind that can do that and Amare is another one.


edit: I don't think we have seen an up tempo team yet to really evaluate your quickness to quickness definition, either way I don't think Posey is able to guard most of the power forwards in the NBA because they are either to quick or to strong for him, I think we agree to disagree once again.

cordobes
11-19-2010, 09:52 PM
No exact plays here, but defensively Posey either has an established position within the team concept well before basically anyone tries to drive past him and is effective in maintaining that position relative to others on a given play, or he simply stays out of the way because he recognizes that he no longer has the ability to stay in front of his man one-on-one due to his lack of quickness, and is a huge liability defensively in those circumstances in my opinion. Smith is only one example of a player Posey can't hope to match up with defensively in that commonplace scenario, especially when the Pacers defense gets stretched more than it ordinarily would due to playing a faster tempo where the other team also joins in playing the faster tempo.

You are saying that Smith drove by Posey, correct? In this last game. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? This is like the "Manu destroyed Dunleavy" theory.

In regards to the tempo, have you been watching the Pacers games this season? The tempo they play at is pretty average. If you still think the Pacers play too fast for your liking, you do have a problem with NBA basketball because it's basically the average pace of the league.

It's fine to have different opinions and disagreements. And it's one's prerogative to allow his passions to cloud his judgement. But facts will still be facts and a clouded judgement will never be more than that.

cordobes
11-19-2010, 09:57 PM
Shaq used to use quickness and power to score on people, now he only use his power.

Exactly. Like Josh Smith on those plays.


In your definition about quickness I think is hard for any power forward to have the ability to take somebody off the dribble, Odom is guy that comes to mind that can do that and Amare is another one.

There are lots of PFs who have a face-up game and that use their quickness advantage to get shots off.

And occasionally, one will do it to Posey. I've seen Matt Bonner blowing by Garnett. But none has enough quickness to do it consistently. The guys who come closer are probably hybrids like Gerald Wallace and Chris Bosh (who has a spectacular first step for a big man).

BlueNGold
11-19-2010, 09:58 PM
Just have to weigh in on a Posey thread. The more I've seen from him this year, the more I like. I imagine he will have a difficult time matching up with Orlando and many other teams. But, his presence will always remind me of "the trade".

So, anytime I see him on the court at the 4 position, I know it could be worse...

Gamble1
11-19-2010, 10:51 PM
Just have to weigh in on a Posey thread. The more I've seen from him this year, the more I like. I imagine he will have a difficult time matching up with Orlando and many other teams. But, his presence will always remind me of "the trade".

So, anytime I see him on the court at the 4 position, I know it could be worse...
Why do you think Posey will have a hard time with Rashard Lewis? He's actually one guy I think he could match up well against.

BlueNGold
11-19-2010, 10:55 PM
Why do you think Posey will have a hard time with Rashard Lewis? He's actually one guy I think he could match up well against.

Maybe you have a point. Rashard is more SF than PF though. Posey is best against a player like Haslem IMO. I think James is a smart, savvy, experienced player who doesn't match up as well with athletes. Rashard is long and quick...not exactly Josh Smith so maybe Posey can handle it ok.

ksuttonjr76
11-19-2010, 11:01 PM
Why do you think Posey will have a hard time with Rashard Lewis? He's actually one guy I think he could match up well against.

Personally, I rather see Tyler bullying Lewis. Honestly, I don't see that Lewis being that much of an "impact" player. I believe that our Jo****yler combo should be able to handle him just fine.

Gamble1
11-19-2010, 11:04 PM
Maybe you have a point. Rashard is more SF than PF though. Posey is best against a player like Haslem IMO. I think James is a smart, savvy, experienced player who doesn't match up as well with athletes. Rashard is long and quick...not exactly Josh Smith so maybe Posey can handle it ok.
Personally I think age has caught up to both of them. Rashard looks like a shell of his Seattle days. Maybe its my recent playoff memory though.

Brad8888
11-19-2010, 11:45 PM
You are saying that Smith drove by Posey, correct? In this last game. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? This is like the "Manu destroyed Dunleavy" theory.

In regards to the tempo, have you been watching the Pacers games this season? The tempo they play at is pretty average. If you still think the Pacers play too fast for your liking, you do have a problem with NBA basketball because it's basically the average pace of the league.

It's fine to have different opinions and disagreements. And it's one's prerogative to allow his passions to cloud his judgement. But facts will still be facts and a clouded judgement will never be more than that.

No disrepect was intended by my post, Cordobes, and I apologize for any offense you may have taken from it.

I don't keep recordings, or recorded breakdowns of games that you may well have access to if I am not missing my guess. Yes, I admit that my judgement could be clouded because I am a human being, and my experience set plainly differs from yours, as it does from anyone else's.

I have watched all but the past two games, which I do have on my DVR and intend to watch them, possibly this weekend, and that obviously includes the Atlanta game. If you read my post carefully, I did not make the claim that Smith drove by Posey himself, but I will watch for that when I watch the game. My guess is that due to the stronger overall defensive effort that has been put forth by the combination of Rush and the improved Granger, Posey has not been required to cover as much ground defensively in those games when he has been paired with either of them, assuming that occurred, and otherwise his time on the floor has been with the lineup that would not have had a good performance of the team defensive concept and Posey probably would not have been utilized as a primary defender in those instances because he is not as quick as he used to be, which O'Brien would recognize.

I will say that earlier this season I have seen Posey simply watch as players have gone by him, assuming that whoever was behind him was picking up the driver, several of those times ending up as easy scores because of the failed defensive concept and slow rotations of our interior defenders, and I have also seen Posey, in the lane, not stay in front of driving players when he realized that he couldn't draw the charge because he recognizes his own limitations. In my clouded judgement he is no longer the Posey who was once a high quality defender, which is not surprising this late in his long career.

About the pace of play, O'Brien has complained about the pace of play being too slow more than once, and that he intends to get it sped back up, and for me that is a weakness strategically unless you have what amounts to an All-Star team to execute it in an above average fashion. Yes, the Pacers currently rank 12th in pace rating so far, just above the league average, but they most likely will end up much higher if what O'Brien has stated is true and if past performance is indicative of future results, and I am looking towards that with my comments about Posey in a more uptempo environment. I do not have a problem with NBA basketball, either, I just know what I like to see.

I am a Dunleavy fan. With respect to Dunleavy vs. Manu, again, Dunleavy is a player who is better when flanked by more athletic defenders who can make up some of the ground he cannot quite cover, but he is doing somewhat better this season due to his improved health, and he has surprised me at times by being able to slide in front of a good portion of driving players at least as well as he did prior to surgery, if not a bit better.

count55
11-20-2010, 12:24 AM
This is the shot chart for Josh Smith from Tuesday's game:

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/joshsmith.JPG

There is one make missing from this (or else just "in the basket"), and that Smith's lone dunk. That dunk was created when Jamal Crawford broke down the defense, got into the lane, and dumped it to Smith for the dunk.

The three circles in the paint below the circle are the post ups Smith got against Posey.

Below are Posey's defensive numbers from Synergy through Thursday's games:

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/posey.JPG

Do with this what you will.

avoidingtheclowns
11-20-2010, 12:40 AM
Do with this what you will.

I could make a hat. Or a brooch. Or a pterodactyl.

Brad8888
11-20-2010, 11:41 AM
I could make a hat. Or a brooch. Or a pterodactyl.

You could make a big floppy hat from the skin of the pterodactyl, with extra available for the ultimate in a cape for an accessory from the wings, and use its beak for the brooch, and roast the rest for Thanksgiving, but I'm afraid that would be politically incorrect, and that NETOD would get involved (Neanderthals for the Ethical Treatment of Dinosaurs) and they are reputed to swing a club better than Jamaal Tinsley ever swung a dustpan...

BillS
11-20-2010, 11:56 AM
Shaq used quickness and power to score on people, now he only use his power.

:jawdrop:

Brad8888
11-20-2010, 12:25 PM
This is the shot chart for Josh Smith from Tuesday's game:

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/joshsmith.JPG

There is one make missing from this (or else just "in the basket"), and that Smith's lone dunk. That dunk was created when Jamal Crawford broke down the defense, got into the lane, and dumped it to Smith for the dunk.

The three circles in the paint below the circle are the post ups Smith got against Posey.

Below are Posey's defensive numbers from Synergy through Thursday's games:

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/posey.JPG

Do with this what you will.

I don't know, I may be alone, but I don't subscribe to Synergy, so I don't know what these stats mean and how they are derived.

Does Rank mean the statistical ranking of the player within the league out of all players, or players at his position, or something else entirely? Those lead to completely different conclusions even at this early stage in the season. A ranking of 60th in the league as a whole seems way too high for him defensively, while 60th among forwards / power forwards seems too low. Also, how do the rest of the situational stats compare to other players in the league? Without knowing things like a comparison to league averages and what the best and worst performances are statistically, it is not possible to make any kind of sense of them.

Of course, I would currently rank Posey at about 10th defensively on the Pacers ahead of Stephenson, Collison, George (only because of his mistakes, overall he will be a better defender than Posey used to be because of his instincts once he gets acclimated to the league and gains maturity), Solomon Jones, and possibly McRoberts who has turned into a foul magnet during his transition. At the power forward position for the Pacers, I would rank Posey 2nd behind Hansbrough. Second on the Pacers in a 30 team league at his position should roughly equate to 60th or a little worse in the league amongst power forwards due to the Pacers relative weakness at that position.

The shot chart makes sense and I assume shows that Smith had difficulty when he was contested up top, probably by Rush and Granger from what I have read about the game so far, but when he drove we had a difficult time stopping him at the rim, and he abused us on postups as well, regardless of who was there to challenge him anywhere in the paint, Posey or anyone else.

Without understanding what the stats are supposed to represent and how they are derived, I haven't a clue what to do with them other than to say "Wow, they keep some interesting stats, sure wish I knew what they are supposed to mean."

SMosley21
11-20-2010, 12:47 PM
Of course, I would currently rank Posey at about 10th defensively on the Pacers ahead of Stephenson, Collison, George (only because of his mistakes, overall he will be a better defender than Posey used to be because of his instincts once he gets acclimated to the league and gains maturity), Solomon Jones, and possibly McRoberts who has turned into a foul magnet during his transition. At the power forward position for the Pacers, I would rank Posey 2nd behind Hansbrough. Second on the Pacers in a 30 team league at his position should roughly equate to 60th or a little worse in the league amongst power forwards due to the Pacers relative weakness at that position.

Considering Posey has been known (up until his recent couple of seasons with injury and age concerns) as one of the better wing defenders in the entire NBA, I think that's a big assumption to make. I do think George will be a very good defender eventually but to just assume that he's going to be better than Posey ever was is a very big assumption.

Brad8888
11-20-2010, 06:05 PM
Considering Posey has been known (up until his recent couple of seasons with injury and age concerns) as one of the better wing defenders in the entire NBA, I think that's a big assumption to make. I do think George will be a very good defender eventually but to just assume that he's going to be better than Posey ever was is a very big assumption.

You're absolutely right. How silly of me to express an overly positive, hyperbolized thought with respect to one of our future players. I should have said that because of O'Brien not playing him, and rightfully not doing so, he will not reach the level Posey was able to achieve because George doesn't have the playing experience needed to overcome the benching that he generally experiences, and as a result will basically be a bench player with about a 6 or 7 year NBA career.

Come on. There have been lots of people who have overstated the ceilings of just about every drafted player the Pacers have had in recent years. This season is no different. At draft time there were articles about George and his sky high potential to be the best player in this draft. In my opinion that is not going to happen, but I believe he can be very good on both ends of the floor as long as he gets taught how to play in the NBA by the other players and the next coach (hopefully next year). With the athleticism George has, he could exceed Posey's former defensive abilities in my view, without even necessarily being the very best defender in the league at that time.

cordobes
11-20-2010, 09:19 PM
I have watched all but the past two games, which I do have on my DVR and intend to watch them, possibly this weekend, and that obviously includes the Atlanta game.

Ah, okay, my bad as I thought you had actually watched the game, disregard my challenge then.

When you watch the game, you'll see that Smith's field-goals made when defended by Posey were:

2 hand-offs, a dunk and a lay-up (one assisted by Crawford, the other by Teague)
2 spot-ups (Johnson and Crawford assisted)
2 post-ups
1 isolation (finished with a 15 ft jumper from the left-block extended after a spin move).

Additionally, he got fouled in 2 post-ups by Posey.


About the pace of play, O'Brien has complained about the pace of play being too slow more than once, and that he intends to get it sped back up, and for me that is a weakness strategically unless you have what amounts to an All-Star team to execute it in an above average fashion. Yes, the Pacers currently rank 12th in pace rating so far, just above the league average, but they most likely will end up much higher if what O'Brien has stated is true and if past performance is indicative of future results, and I am looking towards that with my comments about Posey in a more uptempo environment. I do not have a problem with NBA basketball, either, I just know what I like to see.

If it's something you're predicting that will happen in the future, why complain that it's affecting the way the Pacers play defense now?

cordobes
11-20-2010, 09:24 PM
There is one make missing from this (or else just "in the basket"), and that Smith's lone dunk. That dunk was created when Jamal Crawford broke down the defense, got into the lane, and dumped it to Smith for the dunk.

The three circles in the paint below the circle are the post ups Smith got against Posey.

That dunk is charted as a 4ft jumper. It's that circle closer to the basket. The and1 he got after that Jeff Teague drive is on the same spot, it seems.

The 3rd post up, the one with 1:54 to go in the 2nd, was not against Posey, it was Granger defending him, there was a switch after a pindown by Jason Collins.

Brad8888
11-21-2010, 01:58 AM
Ah, okay, my bad as I thought you had actually watched the game, disregard my challenge then.

When you watch the game, you'll see that Smith's field-goals made when defended by Posey were:

2 hand-offs, a dunk and a lay-up (one assisted by Crawford, the other by Teague)
2 spot-ups (Johnson and Crawford assisted)
2 post-ups
1 isolation (finished with a 15 ft jumper from the left-block extended after a spin move).

Additionally, he got fouled in 2 post-ups by Posey.



If it's something you're predicting that will happen in the future, why complain that it's affecting the way the Pacers play defense now?

I still haven't watched the Hawks game. Thank you for the synopsis.

I complain because I care, and I believe things can be improved.

I am very concerned because it is having an impact now in my opinion, even at the relatively slow pace (which, by the way, is slower due to better defense by the remainder of the team overall in my opinion) and at the faster pace Posey will truly be exposed and it will turn our improved defense back into more like what we have had for three years, especially if Posey continues to see his minutes increase, and I still believe he will be the starter soon despite being less effective in the overall scheme of things than Hansbrough has been, and for the Orlando game, McRoberts was easily the best of the three. O'Brien loves him for the 3 and thinks he almost is still the Posey defensively from several years ago, and apparently he is not alone in that thought. I continue to disagree with that view, and the Orlando game reinforced that for me.

PacersPride
11-21-2010, 02:02 AM
i havent read through the entire thread, not a knock against posey but would much rather have seen tyler on the floor. interesting that mcroberts played very little it seemed like in the 2nd half. why does job feel the need to stick with a set starting lineup when its obvious to most on here that tyler should be starting.. and possibly rush as well.

would dun have really played good enough d the other night against a talent like eric gordon.. how bout when we play the heat.. how can o'brien justify starting a natural sf who plays average D against someone like wade.

truly a mystery

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 02:07 AM
i havent read through the entire thread, not a knock against posey but would much rather have seen tyler on the floor. interesting that mcroberts played very little it seemed like in the 2nd half. why does job feel the need to stick with a set starting lineup when its obvious to most on here that tyler should be starting.. and possibly rush as well.

would dun have really played good enough d the other night against a talent like eric gordon.. how bout when we play the heat.. how can o'brien justify starting a natural sf who plays average D against someone like wade.

truly a mystery

he just couln't guard Lewis. agree with the rest of ur post we need tyler and Rush starting. J mac would not play on most teams but we are thin at that postion. and dunleavy is ideal as the backup SF.

PacersPride
11-21-2010, 02:11 AM
he just couln't guard Lewis. agree with the rest of ur post we need tyler and Rush starting. J mac would not play on most teams but we are thin at that postion.

and posey can? if i were to guess.. i would say mcroberts has way more athleticsm than posey. same can be said for hansbrough

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 02:17 AM
and posey can? if i were to guess.. i would say mcroberts has way more athleticsm than posey. same can be said for hansbrough

if u saw the game mcbob just didnt stay with him. He stayed in the paint or drifed on someone eles. It isnt a matter of athleticsm Posey made sure he was gonna stay with Lewis. And he did for the most part and i really dont like Posey at all. But i watch and judge from a unbias view and mcbob didnt play defense 2nite. And tyler only played 11 mins which made me mad i wold of liked him to play more but JOB didnt play him. Im guessing he didnt play much because JOB thoght it was a bad matchup for him, but who knows.

dgranger17
11-21-2010, 07:46 PM
if u saw the game mcbob just didnt stay with him. He stayed in the paint or drifed on someone eles. It isnt a matter of athleticsm Posey made sure he was gonna stay with Lewis. And he did for the most part and i really dont like Posey at all. But i watch and judge from a unbias view and mcbob didnt play defense 2nite. And tyler only played 11 mins which made me mad i wold of liked him to play more but JOB didnt play him. Im guessing he didnt play much because JOB thoght it was a bad matchup for him, but who knows.

Is there a player that you do like?

pacer4ever
11-21-2010, 07:52 PM
Is there a player that you do like?

lol ya i like a lot of players but i am pretty tuff on them during the game. I like Roy ,B rush, DC , AJ, DG, tyler,foster, Paul, , lance, on the pacers

jeffg-body
11-21-2010, 10:46 PM
I personally have been pleasently surprised by Posey's game time performance. I fully expected him to be a great locker room guy and a great teacher to the youngs in practice to show them how to be professionals. I didn't expect him to play much at all and for the most part he has played well. His D is not what it was 4 years ago but he understands the game and has proven to me that there is still gas in the tank. All he does is play the game professionally and is a true professional and I can't knock him for anything thus far.