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View Full Version : Anybody else tired of how Roy is being used?



Pacergeek
11-17-2010, 08:51 AM
I'm sorry to complain, but last nights game against ATL was laughable in terms of how little we went to Roy. I mean Roy was being guarded by freaking Al Horford, who is listed at a generous 6-10. Horford had no business guarding the giant Hibbert. The Pacers should have exploited that matchup all night, and made the Hawks pay.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 08:58 AM
Sure it is easy to say that Roy didn't get the ball in the second half and either blame the Pacers coaching or Roy's teammates (or maybe even Roy), but I would have to go back and re-watch to see what the Hawks did differently - that might have been the biggest factor. I just don't know.

A lot of times if Roy cannot get good low post position then the play turns into a pick and roll

cordobes
11-17-2010, 09:10 AM
Post-up defense, top 10 2010 NBA:


Plays PPP FG% %SF %TO
1. Al Horford 284 0.69 36.1 7.7 13.7
2. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 93 0.71 32.3 9.7 9.7
3. Dwight Howard 212 0.71 34.2 9.4 13.7
4. Mehmet Okur 233 0.71 34.7 10.3 15.5
5. Ben Wallace 208 0.73 39.1 5.8 12.5
6. Kendrick Perkins 226 0.75 37.4 6.2 10.2
7. Andrew Bynum 175 0.76 38.2 6.3 10.9
8. Jermaine O'Neal 233 0.76 40.1 11.2 12.0
9. Nene Hilario 293 0.77 42.5 9.9 17.1
10. Greg Oden 54 0.78 40.0 7.4 9.3

PPP is points per play, %SF is % shooting-fouls committed.

....

Points in the paint differential:

1. Orlando 21.6
2. Atlanta 15.0
3. LA Lakers 12.6
4. New Orleans 10.6
5. Chicago 9.6

Horford is permeable against really good post scorers, but other than that he's pretty good - especially because they can also bring an excellent weakside helper like Josh Smith.

Has Roy Hibbert scored in the post when defended by Horford a single time yesterday? I've only watched the 1st half and partially. He was struggling, made only 3/4 field goals including a couple of jumpers. I'll try to watch his post-up possessions.

Pacergeek
11-17-2010, 09:10 AM
it seems to me like it was a slap in the face having Horford guard Roy. Horford can match up with most teams' centers, becasue most teams don't use a "true" center. Hibbert has all the tools to have made Horford look foolish, but the Hawks were the ones laughing.

Trader Joe
11-17-2010, 09:11 AM
I don't understand where this idea that Atlanta is a weak defensive front court came from?

Roy has got to step up his shooting %'s though. 6/16 isn't acceptable from him IMO. I think he will figure it out, but right now it's sort of limiting us, and it's especially frustrating with how many layups he misses.

cordobes
11-17-2010, 09:14 AM
Hibbert is shooting 32-70 from the field in the last 5 games. These are bad numbers for a center. Season wise, using more than 1/4 of his team possessions to shoot 45% from the floor... it could be worse, but he needs to start making shots (or stop taking them).

Trader Joe
11-17-2010, 09:15 AM
Hibbert is shooting 32-70 from the field in the last 5 games. These are bad numbers for a center. Season wise, using more than 1/4 of his team possessions to shoot 45% from the floor... it could be worse, but he needs to start making shots (or stop taking them).

I absolutely agree. Roy's flown under the radar on this because he's rebounding much better than expected and blocking shots, but these sort of shooting numbers are exactly the sort of thing JO was doing when people were ranting on here that he was bogging down the offense. Roy has simply got to get going at a 50% or higher clip.

ballism
11-17-2010, 09:17 AM
Maybe there were a few questionable possesions where Hibbert might have had the ball, but overall I thought Atlanta just defended him too well in 2nd half. Help defenses were always coming at Roy, esp Josh Smith. And they used Zaza on the court with Horford quite a bit in the 2nd half, while Smith was resting. So it's not like he was guarded by Horford alone all night. I thought Atlanta adjusted well in the 2nd half.

Also, it's hard for your C to stay productive, when your PFs are cold. During 1st half, Posey was going loco, and that effectively kept Smith away from the paint. In 2nd half, he was cold. And McRoberts was just terrible all night. So it was only a matter of time till help defenses started aiming in on Hibbert.

Trader Joe
11-17-2010, 09:18 AM
it seems to me like it was a slap in the face having Horford guard Roy. Horford can match up with most teams' centers, becasue most teams don't use a "true" center. Hibbert has all the tools to have made Horford look foolish, but the Hawks were the ones laughing.

Hibbert is lacking one major tool against Horford...strength. Horford could out muscle Roy and push him out of the post pretty much whenever he wanted to last night.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 09:58 AM
One of the biggest myths is that height is really important in low post play. Just ask Barkley, Larry Johnson, Mark Aquirre, Adrian Dantley or the other dozens of guys who were great ion the low post and yet were short. What is important is leverage, low center of gravity, lower body strength, broad shoulders, wide body.

Trophy
11-17-2010, 09:59 AM
Roy did have a good game statistically.

He should shoot less from outside the paint and score more in the post.

IndyHoya
11-17-2010, 10:04 AM
I'm sorry to complain, but last nights game against ATL was laughable in terms of how little we went to Roy. I mean Roy was being guarded by freaking Al Horford, who is listed at a generous 6-10. Horford had no business guarding the giant Hibbert. The Pacers should have exploited that matchup all night, and made the Hawks pay.

Part of the problem, particularly in the second half was (1) they were sagging off Josh and doubling Roy in the low post and (2) for some reason, they were running plays with Roy posting high. Can't figure the reason for (2)[maybe a questionable JO coaching strategy] but (1) is attributable to Josh's inability to be a credible offensive threat with a short jumper.

thefeistyone
11-17-2010, 11:44 AM
Part of the problem, particularly in the second half was (1) they were sagging off Josh and doubling Roy in the low post and (2) for some reason, they were running plays with Roy posting high. Can't figure the reason for (2)[maybe a questionable JO coaching strategy but (1) is attributable to Josh's inability to be a credible offensive threat with a short jumper.

So you're saying we need a 4 that can knock down a 3 from the top of the key? I think I got someone in mind, He even went to college in indiana. I don't know if we could get him back though.

ballism
11-17-2010, 11:56 AM
3s don't matter so much. Anyone who can knock a mid range would help. Smith here just didnt bother with McRob. As soon as Posey would sit - and when he went cold - Smith would close in on Hibbert.

Gamble1
11-17-2010, 12:42 PM
I absolutely agree. Roy's flown under the radar on this because he's rebounding much better than expected and blocking shots, but these sort of shooting numbers are exactly the sort of thing JO was doing when people were ranting on here that he was bogging down the offense. Roy has simply got to get going at a 50% or higher clip.
I won't make the comparison of JO and Hibby but there were a number of years that Rik Smits shot under 50% as a center.

IT was said before the season started that we would give Roy some time to get adjusted to new body and I think he is in that so called adjustment period. I also think he is getting the ball pretty far away from the basket for whatever reason and that is leading to his lower percentage.

Gamble1
11-17-2010, 12:44 PM
One of the biggest myths is that height is really important in low post play. Just ask Barkley, Larry Johnson, Mark Aquirre, Adrian Dantley or the other dozens of guys who were great ion the low post and yet were short. What is important is leverage, low center of gravity, lower body strength, broad shoulders, wide body.
I'll ask Tim Duncan instead.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 12:46 PM
I'll ask Tim Duncan instead.

Yes, but TD is wide. A better player to ask is JO, who had very narrow shoulder and hips and that was the reason why he often led the NBA in getting his shots blocked and always had trouble getting low post position.

BillS
11-17-2010, 12:48 PM
He's still pretty easy to push out of position, and he hasn't yet figured out how to force his way back. If someone on the team could hit a quick midrange jumper there'd be less chance for folks to double Roy and deny his position and then get back to the person Roy passes to in time to defend him.

I noticed last night the only person to catch and shoot was Dun, though I may be selling Danny short as there were a couple of shots where he was at least somewhat quick. Pretty much everyone else took too much time to either get set or figure out what to do, including Roy.

ksuttonjr76
11-17-2010, 12:53 PM
Part of the problem, particularly in the second half was (1) they were sagging off Josh and doubling Roy in the low post and (2) for some reason, they were running plays with Roy posting high. Can't figure the reason for (2)[maybe a questionable JO coaching strategy] but (1) is attributable to Josh's inability to be a credible offensive threat with a short jumper.

That was exactly what happened in the 2nd half. It forced Roy to came out the high elbow. I believe that the gameplay was for Roy to hit the cutters, but they're shots wasn't falling that well. As a result, we moved to too many isolation plays. The would explain James Poesy's extended minutes, because it was his job (no pun intended) to make ATL pay for the double team on Roy. One-on-One, Roy was going to put in them in foul trouble among their bigs. Roy attempt 8 FTs last night.

ksuttonjr76
11-17-2010, 12:54 PM
He's still pretty easy to push out of position, and he hasn't yet figured out how to force his way back. If someone on the team could hit a quick midrange jumper there'd be less chance for folks to double Roy and deny his position and then get back to the person Roy passes to in time to defend him.

I noticed last night the only person to catch and shoot was Dun, though I may be selling Danny short as there were a couple of shots where he was at least somewhat quick. Pretty much everyone else took too much time to either get set or figure out what to do, including Roy.

Dang, you pretty much beat me to it.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 12:58 PM
I think Roy's better off learning how to just maneuver to re-post as opposed to trying to shove his way back to where he wants to be. Hop away, move a little, then dart back to a position you can live with. Don't try to get into a wrestling match if you can't out-muscle the other guy. Hell, just cut to the opposite low block, even, and have the team work the ball around quickly. There's options beyond shoving with your man.

ksuttonjr76
11-17-2010, 01:00 PM
As a side note, 18 points, 15 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 BLK and 1 STL are not exactly pedestrian numbers. I would almost "chalk up" his FG% given the fact he took some mid-range jumpers.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 01:04 PM
Roy needs to just realize there are some shots he takes that he ought not take, and then keep working on finishing (be it a layup or a dunk). If he can tighten those up, his FG% will likely be just fine.

I don't know if that means it will be 50+% or not, but I'd guess at least upper 40's. Probably right around 50%.

And the sooner he disciplines himself to 'always' be balanced between "don't rush" and "don't wait", the better. The times where he's in rhythm and just goes right into an on-balance move, he's pretty killer. Catch, go, release, but not too fast, not too slow.

MTM
11-17-2010, 01:09 PM
At least he is playing this year and not being taken out for allegedly poor defense.

croz24
11-17-2010, 01:21 PM
roy has improved in every season he has ever played from college until now. i think we can back off a little on a center who's shooting 45% while averaging 16ppg 10rpg 3apg 3bpg and 83% from the line while clearly being our most valuable player in just his 3rd year.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 01:29 PM
I think overall using Roy in the low post but also in the high post makes sense.(I don't know what % breakdown it should be - depends on the matchup) It would be fun to see Roy in the high post and a good low post player in the low post - but we don't have any (besides Roy)

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 01:34 PM
I think overall using Roy in the low post but also in the high post makes sense.(I don't know what % breakdown it should be - depends on the matchup) It would be fun to see Roy in the high post and a good low post player in the low post - but we don't have any (besides Roy)

That is the issue here, if we don't have any other player that can play down low why is the system designed for him to be in the high post, if a regular guy like you can figure that out why an NBA coach like JOB can't?

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 01:41 PM
That is the issue here, if we don't have any other player that can play down low why is the system designed for him to be in the high post, if a regular guy like you can figure that out why an NBA coach like JOB can't?

Sometimes it is good to have no one in the low post, it opens the floor up for backdoor plays. In fact one of our most popular and successful plays is when Danny flashes into the lane and Roy lobs him the ball from the high post. No reason to stop running that play. (Jim used to run that with Walker feeding Pierce)

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 01:53 PM
Sometimes it is good to have no one in the low post, it opens the floor up for backdoor plays. In fact one of our most popular and successful plays is when Danny flashes into the lane and Roy lobs him the ball from the high post. No reason to stop running that play. (Jim used to run that with Walker feeding Pierce)

I am sorry but I don't think you need your 7'2'' center in the high post shooting jumpers, you need him inside, that play that you are referring too is maybe use once or twice in a game, is not something that is going to give you a win.

Regarding your example about Jim using this play for Walker and Pierce, I understand the play if you have a good shooter in walker and a good player in Pierce that can also post up, this is another example for the JOB haters(how some people call those that don't like JOB) of Jim not adjusting his game to bring the best out of his players.

Trophy
11-17-2010, 01:54 PM
Tyler can play the post well, but JOB uses him to shoot FGs like Roy.

Josh needs to learn how to play the post better.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 02:00 PM
I am sorry but I don't think you need your 7'2'' center in the high post shooting jumpers, you need him inside, that play that you are referring too is maybe use once or twice in a game, is not something that is going to give you a win.

Regarding your example about Jim using this play for Walker and Pierce, I understand the play if you have a good shooter in walker and a good player in Pierce that can also post up, this is another example for the JOB haters(how some people call those that don't like JOB) of Jim not adjusting his game to bring the best out of his players.

Ok lets take a different approach.

What other current NBA center does Roy most resemble in style of play. I think Roy is similar to Yao. Both good passers, good shooters, good low post, but also good high post, and both have limited mobility. Yao is used quite a bit in the the high post - that makes him a more difficult player to defend. I could list the other big guys through the years who were used in the high post - it is not unusual. Brad Miller, Divac, Chris Webber.......

Your blanket statement that you don't want a 7'2" center in the high post is IMO just not something you can make a blanket statement about.

The play that Jim ranw ith Walker and Pierce and now uses with Roy and danny are quick hitting plays where Pierce or Danny get the ball right at the basket - they generally get behind their defender for layups - one of our best plays - Jim has done a nice job bringing that play here and adapting it to our players. it is more of a surprise play as Danny fakes like he is going off a screen and then cuts backdoor - most of the time - sure some are post ups if the matchup is good.

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 02:02 PM
Ok lets take a different approach.

What other current NBA center does Roy most resemble in style of play. I think Roy is similar to Yao. Both good passers, good shooters, good low post, but also good high post limited mobility. Yao is used quite a bit in the the high post - that makes him a more difficult player to defend. I could list the other big guys who were used in the high post -

Your blanket statement that you don't want a 7'2" center in the high post is IMO just not something you can make a blanket statement about.

The play that Jim ranw ith Walker and Pierce and now uses with Roy and danny are quick hitting plays where Pierce or Danny get the ball right at the basket - they generally get behind their defender for layups - one of our best plays - Jim has done a nice job bringing that play here and adapting it to our players. it is more of a surprise play as Danny fakes like he is going off a screen and then cuts backdoor - most of the time - sure some are post ups if the matchup is good.

Yao plays mainly in the low post. Posting people up. Roy is misued we play him in the high post way to much.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 02:05 PM
Yao plays mainly in the low post. Posting people up. Roy is misued we play him in the high post way to much.

OK, what % of halfcourt offensive plays do you (and others) think Roy is used at the high post. (would be interesting to see how many times he is actually used there - I don't know, but it doesn't seem like it is that much to me

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 02:16 PM
Ok lets take a different approach.

What other current NBA center does Roy most resemble in style of play. I think Roy is similar to Yao. Both good passers, good shooters, good low post, but also good high post, and both have limited mobility. Yao is used quite a bit in the the high post - that makes him a more difficult player to defend. I could list the other big guys through the years who were used in the high post - it is not unusual. Brad Miller, Divac, Chris Webber.......

Your blanket statement that you don't want a 7'2" center in the high post is IMO just not something you can make a blanket statement about.

The play that Jim ranw ith Walker and Pierce and now uses with Roy and danny are quick hitting plays where Pierce or Danny get the ball right at the basket - they generally get behind their defender for layups - one of our best plays - Jim has done a nice job bringing that play here and adapting it to our players. it is more of a surprise play as Danny fakes like he is going off a screen and then cuts backdoor - most of the time - sure some are post ups if the matchup is good.

They use Yao in the high post at times because they have a really good post up player in Scola, like you said the Pacers don't have this type of player so I don't think that using Roy in the high post at this moment were we don't have a down low player is the right thing to do.

BillS
11-17-2010, 02:24 PM
When teams adjust against Roy in the low post, he either needs to be able to re-establish his position or he needs to shift to his secondary spot (high post).

Roy is not good at re-establishing his position. His efficiency in the low post does not come from muscling through his man for a jam or a switch-handed lay-up, it comes from his hook shot or an uncontested lay-up. When teams begin to double him, he has to pass out to an effective player somewhere else. When players aren't effective somewhere else, the next best strategy is to move Roy out so he can see the floor for cutters or open shots.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:28 PM
Sometimes it is good to have no one in the low post, it opens the floor up for backdoor plays. In fact one of our most popular and successful plays is when Danny flashes into the lane and Roy lobs him the ball from the high post. No reason to stop running that play. (Jim used to run that with Walker feeding Pierce)

Except for whenever the other team just dares us to shoot.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:29 PM
When teams adjust against Roy in the low post, he either needs to be able to re-establish his position or he needs to shift to his secondary spot (high post).

Roy is not good at re-establishing his position. His efficiency in the low post does not come from muscling through his man for a jam or a switch-handed lay-up, it comes from his hook shot or an uncontested lay-up. When teams begin to double him, he has to pass out to an effective player somewhere else. When players aren't effective somewhere else, the next best strategy is to move Roy out so he can see the floor for cutters or open shots.

If it were up to me, rather than encourage Roy to hit the high post when he's not able to get down low, I'd just tell him to cut across the lane and post up on the other block, and I'd coach the others to know he'll do that, quickly swing the ball, and quickly get it to him.

spazzxb
11-17-2010, 02:30 PM
roy has improved in every season he has ever played from college until now. i think we can back off a little on a center who's shooting 45% while averaging 16ppg 10rpg 3apg 3bpg and 83% from the line while clearly being our most valuable player in just his 3rd year.

People just need to stop.saying posting him more will solve our problems. Its not that he isn't playing well he just has trouble muscling guys in the post

Since86
11-17-2010, 02:34 PM
When teams adjust against Roy in the low post, he either needs to be able to re-establish his position or he needs to shift to his secondary spot (high post).

Roy is not good at re-establishing his position. His efficiency in the low post does not come from muscling through his man for a jam or a switch-handed lay-up, it comes from his hook shot or an uncontested lay-up. When teams begin to double him, he has to pass out to an effective player somewhere else. When players aren't effective somewhere else, the next best strategy is to move Roy out so he can see the floor for cutters or open shots.

And there is an extremely easy fix for that.

It's called ball movement. Roy can post up on a spot, and have the defense react, denying him direct entry pass. You swing the ball to another position on the floor, without Roy even moving, and suddenly he has position.

It's not something that has to be combated one way and one way only. There are other options for people that have a different name other than James O'Brien.

BillS
11-17-2010, 02:34 PM
If it were up to me, rather than encourage Roy to hit the high post when he's not able to get down low, I'd just tell him to cut across the lane and post up on the other block, and I'd coach the others to know he'll do that, quickly swing the ball, and quickly get it to him.

I'll have to look to see if that is being tried before going to the high post. My gut feeling is that Roy isn't deciding what to do fast enough and is taking the ball out of position low rather than passing out and re-establishing. The adjustment then comes from the bench, where the move to the other block would have to come within the low-post offense.

Problem is, though, as easy as it has been to get him out of position, I don't necessarily think just shifting across solves the problem, it just means pushing him out of position there as well.

This works if it opens up a shot for another offensive player, but if the offense is missing those it doesn't mean anything.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:35 PM
People just need to stop.saying posting him more will solve our problems. Its not that he isn't playing well he just has trouble muscling guys in the post

You don't have to "muscle" guys to succeed with your back to the basket. You have to have the moves, the ability to get your shot off cleanly, and the ability to finish. Roy can do that. His biggest problems are going too slow/fast, keeping his balance, and just getting good position to start with.

graphic-er
11-17-2010, 02:36 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=58276

We already got a thread on this man.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:38 PM
I'll have to look to see if that is being tried before going to the high post. My gut feeling is that Roy isn't deciding what to do fast enough and is taking the ball out of position low rather than passing out and re-establishing. The adjustment then comes from the bench, where the move to the other block would have to come within the low-post offense.

Problem is, though, as easy as it has been to get him out of position, I don't necessarily think just shifting across solves the problem, it just means pushing him out of position there as well.

This works if it opens up a shot for another offensive player, but if the offense is missing those it doesn't mean anything.

Timing and positioning can always get you what you need, if you execute. For us, that could just mean when Roy switches to the weakside, he posts up deeper than he needs to, so by the time the ball heads his way, he's only being pushed to just outside of the paint, as opposed to what sometimes is happening where he starts outside and gets pushed too far out.

If the team were deliberate about this, they could get it done the majority of the time.

I suspect the nature of our "we don't call plays (usually)" offense is making this harder than it has to be. If we simply decided going in that this is what we wanted to do, we could be better at it, but right now the players stop and think about their options and therefore aren't automatically looking to help Roy succeed (because they're wondering if they should shoot instead, or pass to someone else, or wait/look for a cutter).

BillS
11-17-2010, 02:41 PM
Timing and positioning can always get you what you need, if you execute. For us, that could just mean when Roy switches to the weakside, he posts up deeper than he needs to, so by the time the ball heads his way, he's only being pushed to just outside of the paint, as opposed to what sometimes is happening where he starts outside and gets pushed too far out.

If the team were deliberate about this, they could get it done the majority of the time.

I'd agree if Roy had more post weapons in his arsenal than a hook shot and a layup.

His comfort zone for these is better than it was last year, but it still isn't enough. Too close is just as bad as too far, all the defense needs to do is keep him out of his "sweet spot".

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:45 PM
I wouldn't be offended in the least if he just focused on his hook shot. They can't block it. You can only hope he misses or double team it. He also has a fade-away shot, btw.

Since86
11-17-2010, 02:46 PM
I'd agree if Roy had more post weapons in his arsenal than a hook shot and a layup.

His comfort zone for these is better than it was last year, but it still isn't enough. Too close is just as bad as too far, all the defense needs to do is keep him out of his "sweet spot".

And instead of trying to find other ways to get him to his sweet spot, our offense settles and just let's the defense dictate what the offense is going to do.

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 02:46 PM
I wouldn't be offended in the least if he just focused on his hook shot. They can't block it. You can only hope he misses or double team it. He also has a fade-away shot, btw.

ya his sky hook would be nice if he can work on it more. He just doesnt have that soft of a touch around the rim

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:46 PM
These stats don't include last night, but for what it's worth, I filtered to only centers, and only those who play 25+ minutes.

Roy is/was shooting 66.7% at the rim. With one exception (David Lee), all of the players who shoot as good or better than him at the rim are getting more of those shots off of an assist than Roy.

http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=C&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=25

spazzxb
11-17-2010, 02:54 PM
You don't have to "muscle" guys to succeed with your back to the basket. You have to have the moves, the ability to get your shot off cleanly, and the ability to finish. Roy can do that. His biggest problems are going too slow/fast, keeping his balance, and just getting good position to start with.

I just see him, especially the few times the have paused and clear out for him, trying to muscle his way in, specificly against Miller. I expect him to improve. Hid defense and most other parts of his game have been great.

BillS
11-17-2010, 03:00 PM
And instead of trying to find other ways to get him to his sweet spot, our offense settles and just let's the defense dictate what the offense is going to do.

Can't disagree with this. I think the plan is supposed to be to take advantage of where the defense ends up, only our offense other than Roy is not consistent enough to do that. Other players are too slow and let the defense catch up instead of making them pay, or just simply miss open shots.

The question, though, becomes whether we basically give up and figure Roy in the low post is our only possible offense, so every offensive activity is based solely on getting the ball to Roy and hoping he can get in position, or do we try other things even if they aren't working because it is early in the season and we need to trot them out?

If we weren't so jaded by Jim's use of Roy and the post in the past, would we be so critical of trying to establish multiple places he can be effective and multiple ways for the offense to attack?

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 03:08 PM
Can't disagree with this. I think the plan is supposed to be to take advantage of where the defense ends up, only our offense other than Roy is not consistent enough to do that. Other players are too slow and let the defense catch up instead of making them pay, or just simply miss open shots.

The question, though, becomes whether we basically give up and figure Roy in the low post is our only possible offense, so every offensive activity is based solely on getting the ball to Roy and hoping he can get in position, or do we try other things even if they aren't working because it is early in the season and we need to trot them out?

If we weren't so jaded by Jim's use of Roy and the post in the past, would we be so critical of trying to establish multiple places he can be effective and multiple ways for the offense to attack?

I think that a system like the one the Spurs use could fit this team, were you have a post up player, two shooters a garbage player(PF) and a point guard that likes to penetrate(not saying that we have the Spurs talent)

BillS
11-17-2010, 03:13 PM
I think that a system like the one the Spurs use could fit this team, were you have a post up player, two shooters a garbage player(PF) and a point guard that likes to penetrate(not saying that we have the Spurs talent)

Doesn't that seem to you like what we have, we just don't finish when the ball gets to the shooters? The thing that is probably missing is more use of the PG to penetrate when an opportunity presents, and that is a legitimate beef even though when we DO use it things can get a little scary turnover-wise.

Since86
11-17-2010, 03:13 PM
Can't disagree with this. I think the plan is supposed to be to take advantage of where the defense ends up, only our offense other than Roy is not consistent enough to do that. Other players are too slow and let the defense catch up instead of making them pay, or just simply miss open shots.

Is Roy not consistent enough or is the coaching not consistent enough? Let's be honest here, Roy's game does not fit JOb's coaching style. Troy Murphy with defense would be his ideal player. When Roy is being pushed off his spot, Jim is happy, IMHO. I don't know if happy is the right word, but it makes the perfect excuse to move him away from the basket into a position that he would rather his center be.

He doesn't try to fix it. He just say's "Okay, now I can do what I want to do" which is why I hate Jim the coach.

If I were the coach, I would work on the other ways to get Roy the ball in a position he's best suited for, instead of just giving up on it.




The question, though, becomes whether we basically give up and figure Roy in the low post is our only possible offense, so every offensive activity is based solely on getting the ball to Roy and hoping he can get in position, or do we try other things even if they aren't working because it is early in the season and we need to trot them out?

If we weren't so jaded by Jim's use of Roy and the post in the past, would we be so critical of trying to establish multiple places he can be effective and multiple ways for the offense to attack?

I think it's a balance act. Roy should work in the high post, but a very small percentage. And he should only be in the high post when the situation calls for it, like when Hans is in the game with him. Or if the Pacers get another low post threat.

Roy working in the highpost, without a low post threat, actually hurts other players from being able to get to the rim, unless the attack comes from the baseline. The help defense is literally 6-7 feet away from the driver and he has to beat two men with one move, instead of beating his man and then having to beat another, which is a lot easier considering "beating" could easily mean dumping off to Roy and that luxury is gone when Roy is planted 15ft away from the basket.

You also don't want Roy following the play, because he will just congest the lane even more.

Roy should only be in the high post when there is another low post threat in the game, or if there is a mismatch with Danny/Dunleavy etc.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 03:22 PM
Doesn't that seem to you like what we have, we just don't finish when the ball gets to the shooters? The thing that is probably missing is more use of the PG to penetrate when an opportunity presents, and that is a legitimate beef even though when we DO use it things can get a little scary turnover-wise.

I don't think we have the same system, if you pay attention to many of the Spurs games, must of their offense goes trough Duncan, when in the Pacers system must of the plays start from the top of the key, they been giving the ball to Roy a little more this year but not enough I think.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 03:23 PM
I think overall Jim's use of Roy while, not perfect, would not be on my list of top ten things to complain about in regards to Jim's coaching. In fact I think it would be on my top 10 good things Jim does.

Sookie
11-17-2010, 03:25 PM
I think overall Jim's use of Roy while, not perfect, would not be on my list of top ten things to complain about in regards to Jim's coaching. In fact I think it would be on my top 10 good things Jim does.

Out of curiosity, what would be on your list of top ten things to complain about in regards to JOB's coaching?

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 03:27 PM
Out of curiosity, what would be on your list of top ten things to complain about in regards to JOB's coaching?

I was thinking the same thing, there is no way UB has a list :laugh:

cordobes
11-17-2010, 03:27 PM
I doubt there are a handful of guys in the NBA who get more touches in the low post than Hibbert. Who are them? Yao? Maybe 4 years ago, before Adelman.

You can't go to the low block every possession. Not even a prime Shaq was used that way. It makes an offense extremely predictable.

Last season, Hibbert was 6th in the league in post-ups as a % of the possessions used. He scored .91 points per play in post-ups, ranking 56th in the league. And this season, he's being used even more in the low post. And he isn't scoring more efficiently from there.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 03:43 PM
Can't disagree with this. I think the plan is supposed to be to take advantage of where the defense ends up, only our offense other than Roy is not consistent enough to do that. Other players are too slow and let the defense catch up instead of making them pay, or just simply miss open shots.

The question, though, becomes whether we basically give up and figure Roy in the low post is our only possible offense, so every offensive activity is based solely on getting the ball to Roy and hoping he can get in position, or do we try other things even if they aren't working because it is early in the season and we need to trot them out?

If we weren't so jaded by Jim's use of Roy and the post in the past, would we be so critical of trying to establish multiple places he can be effective and multiple ways for the offense to attack?

There's getting it to Roy, but then there's other crazy idea I had: Use our best point guard, who is an established (if not yet completely consistent) offensive weapon, and run the same things his last team did to get him up to 19 and 9 as a starter... :whistle:

I wish we had an offense that resulted with the ball in DC's hands more than ours currently does. More pick and rolls, more dribble penetration, and otherwise lots of low post to Roy and getting Danny good looks off of kick-outs and especially off of screens.

I'm tired of this generally equal-opportunity passing offense being used on a roster where only about 3 guys are consistently an offensive threat.

Since86
11-17-2010, 03:51 PM
You can't go to the low block every possession. Not even a prime Shaq was used that way. It makes an offense extremely predictable.

But you have to be able to do SOMETHING when he's in the high post. Right now he's going to the high post, just to go to the high post. There's no reason to do it.

Without purpose, it's just a waste. That's why he should only be there when he and Hans are in the game.

And quite frankly, I think every offense in the NBA is extremely predictable. I think that's why the NBA is so stinking tough. You know what they're going to do, but the challenge is, can you stop it?

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 03:52 PM
Out of curiosity, what would be on your list of top ten things to complain about in regards to JOB's coaching?

Off the top of my head. And not in order of importance
1) has never gotten the team to commit to defense as I would like
2) Too many threes
3) Not using a more regular substitution pattern
4) Too much use of the passing/motion offense
5) Poor shot selection
6) too honest with the media
7) Poor execution on our pick and roll offense.

That is it for now. Some of these are pretty general and I don't blame the coach 100% for a few of these. Keep in mind Larry brown is IMO the best coach ever to coach the Pacers and I could make a similar list of things I didn't like about his coaching

Speed
11-17-2010, 03:55 PM
and run the same things his last team did to get him up to 19 and 9 as a starter... :whistle:



Absolutely.

I often wonder the same thing, I think when they let DC run the PnR, they are maybe trying this, but it's devolves in DC being stuck with no where to go. In other words its not running what N.O. ran, it's running an isolation play.

He needs to play the PnR, yes, but have other players doing stuff too, not ball gawking. I'm interested to watch N.O. next chance I get to see how they do it with CP3, I'm certain its not the Pacers version of it though.

The typical set, DC feeds the high post and runs to the corner. Might as well have Dunleavy do this, honestly.

I think they run the motion/high post stuff well, I think they run the PnR stuff horribly. DC looks lost sometimes and I completely understand why.

Whats somewhat encouraging is DC is still effective even though he's not playing instinctively. Pretty impressive.

Whats somewhat discouraging is I have no idea why DC is so bad guarding the PnR. It's almost terrible at times.

I have to keep in mind that 1.) DC is really young still. 2.) the system he's running right now might not be what he'll run the remainder of his Pacers tenure.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 04:04 PM
You can't go to the low block every possession. Not even a prime Shaq was used that way. It makes an offense extremely predictable.

Execution trumps unpredictability.

BillS
11-17-2010, 04:07 PM
There's getting it to Roy, but then there's other crazy idea I had: Use our best point guard, who is an established (if not yet completely consistent) offensive weapon, and run the same things his last team did to get him up to 19 and 9 as a starter... :whistle:

I wish we had an offense that resulted with the ball in DC's hands more than ours currently does. More pick and rolls, more dribble penetration, and otherwise lots of low post to Roy and getting Danny good looks off of kick-outs and especially off of screens.

I'm tired of this generally equal-opportunity passing offense being used on a roster where only about 3 guys are consistently an offensive threat.

In the back of my head, though, this little voice keeps saying that if only 3 guys are an offensive threat then changing out one of the guys by leaving the ball in his hands too much doesn't increase things, it just changes who has the chance to hit or miss.

After all, if those 3 threats are actually hitting open shots or not hesitating their way through an offense, we aren't having this discussion.

But, you've hit on one of my problems with too much read-and-react. There aren't opportunities built into the system to change out the offensive focus when your habitual ones aren't working. You need plays set up to give players a chance for success when things aren't falling, and part of that is to use more PnR for DC when the shots from the other guys aren't falling.

However, DC wasn't available last night, so - while many people are convinced he wouldn't have been used - there's no way to prove he wouldn't have been used. We ARE running more PnR when DC is on the floor, just not as many as some feel are needed to completely use the strengths he has.

cordobes
11-17-2010, 04:10 PM
Execution trumps unpredictability.

It's hard to execute if your opponent know what you're going to do, but I do agree - as Bill Russell would say, basketball is about execution. Which is why it makes some sense for Shaq to use 7/10 of his possession in the low block. Hibbert, on the other hand, just doesn't execute well enough to get so many possessions there.

cordobes
11-17-2010, 04:12 PM
and run the same things his last team did to get him up to 19 and 9 as a starter...

That would mean very few post-up opportunities for Hibbert. He'd be used mostly as a screener.

DaveP63
11-17-2010, 04:38 PM
I would like, very much, for him to take the damn ball when he's at the rim and not finger roll it, not toss it, not try to lay it in, DUNK THE DAMN BALL!!!

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 04:49 PM
One thing we keep forgetting is that our center Roy Hibbert is only 23 years old and is getting 16.ppg 10.2rpg 2.8 bpg and he hasn't even hit his prime.

Can you imagine how good we will be with a good coach?

thefeistyone
11-17-2010, 04:54 PM
It's hard to execute if your opponent know what you're going to do

I don't know...I can't imagine opponents getting too shocked when they saw Stockton and Malone running a pick and roll. Sloan has been coaching a long time and been pretty effective running a pick and roll offense. I know we don't have stockton or malone or D Williams for that matter but i could see hibbert and collison having pretty good luck running it a good percentage of the time.

PaceBalls
11-17-2010, 05:23 PM
One thing we keep forgetting is that our center Roy Hibbert is only 23 years old and is getting 16.ppg 10.2rpg 2.8 bpg and he hasn't even hit his prime.

Can you imagine how good we will be with a good coach?

I was thinking about this last night, with the right coach who uses Roy as our MVP, let's him finish games, trusts him to make the right plays, and forces the other team to adjust, not vice versa... Roy could be putting up 20/15/5/4 type numbers. Look at what he is doing with 25-30mpg while playing in the high post most of the game and getting benched during crunchtime.

I have high hopes for this team, we just need the right guy leading them. I also think that next summer we will have our pick of coaches. They will be lining up for a chance to coach Big Roy and the boys.

BillS
11-17-2010, 05:38 PM
I was thinking about this last night, with the right coach who uses Roy as our MVP, let's him finish games, trusts him to make the right plays, and forces the other team to adjust, not vice versa... Roy could be putting up 20/15/5/4 type numbers. Look at what he is doing with 25-30mpg while playing in the high post most of the game and getting benched during crunchtime.

I have high hopes for this team, we just need the right guy leading them. I also think that next summer we will have our pick of coaches. They will be lining up for a chance to coach Big Roy and the boys.

This thought process really bothers me because it assumes that Roy is somehow unstoppable if used correctly, and therefore the only reason Roy is stopped is when he isn't used correctly.

Against the Hawks, I think the Hawks DID adjust, and that stopped Roy. So, what does your "good" coach do? Not make a counter-adjustment and hope that the stopping was really only temporary or false?

The bash here in the past is that JOB ANTICIPATED adjustments, meaning he adjusted before guys were given the chance to do anything at all. I think this year he is adjusting AFTER something happens. He may not be adjusting in the way people want, or that hindsight dictates, but I don't think Roy camping in the low post against double teams is going to be a 20/15 guy every game without some additions to his skillset. He can get those additions, but they aren't there right now.

Midcoasted
11-17-2010, 06:05 PM
I'm scared that JOB may have actually ruint him, as many of us have worried he may ruin our players. He slimmed up alot so he could be quicker to fit O'Briens system, and the result is Hibbert being to weak to post up the stronger post defenders in the league. The only way he can score now is off of finesse, where as last year he has also has a power scoring game, even if it was small. Now he seems to have no ability to beat defenders with strength.

For I fear O'brien has ruint Hibbert.:(:mad::confused:Fire Him!!!

Part Timer
11-17-2010, 06:10 PM
One thing we keep forgetting is that our center Roy Hibbert is only 23 years old and is getting 16.ppg 10.2rpg 2.8 bpg and he hasn't even hit his prime.

Can you imagine how good we will be with a good coach?

Having a different coach would not change the fact that Hibbert is only 23 and still short of his prime. Nothing is going to change that except time and experience.

QuickRelease
11-17-2010, 06:22 PM
I'm scared that JOB may have actually ruint him, as many of us have worried he may ruin our players. He slimmed up alot so he could be quicker to fit O'Briens system, and the result is Hibbert being to weak to post up the stronger post defenders in the league. The only way he can score now is off of finesse, where as last year he has also has a power scoring game, even if it was small. Now he seems to have no ability to beat defenders with strength.

For I fear O'brien has ruint Hibbert.:(:mad::confused:Fire Him!!!I felt one of the reasons Jermaine broke down so frequently is that he bulked up a bit more than his frame was able to sustain. I wouldn't mind Roy getting a little bigger, but not if the trade-off is more wear and tear on his body. Roy has gotten better every year, and is already beyond what I thought he could ever be from his time at Georgetown. I wouldn't say JOB has ruined him at all.

PaceBalls
11-17-2010, 06:35 PM
This thought process really bothers me because it assumes that Roy is somehow unstoppable if used correctly, and therefore the only reason Roy is stopped is when he isn't used correctly.

Against the Hawks, I think the Hawks DID adjust, and that stopped Roy. So, what does your "good" coach do? Not make a counter-adjustment and hope that the stopping was really only temporary or false?

The bash here in the past is that JOB ANTICIPATED adjustments, meaning he adjusted before guys were given the chance to do anything at all. I think this year he is adjusting AFTER something happens. He may not be adjusting in the way people want, or that hindsight dictates, but I don't think Roy camping in the low post against double teams is going to be a 20/15 guy every game without some additions to his skillset. He can get those additions, but they aren't there right now.

It's just a logical extension of where Roy is now. If he is given more minutes, if he is trusted by the coach to finish the game and is considered the focal point of the offense, I think 20/15/5/4 is very possible. Hell, maybe this could even happen under Jim Obrien. If only he trusted Roy like he does Dunleavy.

croz24
11-17-2010, 06:54 PM
from what i've seen, the majority of his misses on his hook shots have hit off the front of the rim leading me to believe he's shooting it too flat. if he could get just a little more arc on that hook, it would literally be impossible to defend against.

Peck
11-17-2010, 06:56 PM
One of the biggest myths is that height is really important in low post play. Just ask Barkley, Larry Johnson, Mark Aquirre, Adrian Dantley or the other dozens of guys who were great ion the low post and yet were short. What is important is leverage, low center of gravity, lower body strength, broad shoulders, wide body.

However all things being equal I'll take height.

What you have listed are some of the best basketball players to have ever played let alone just being good low post players.

Your point is right though however if players are equal in talent and body structure size then being tall is better than not being tall.

Midcoasted
11-17-2010, 07:15 PM
I felt one of the reasons Jermaine broke down so frequently is that he bulked up a bit more than his frame was able to sustain. I wouldn't mind Roy getting a little bigger, but not if the trade-off is more wear and tear on his body. Roy has gotten better every year, and is already beyond what I thought he could ever be from his time at Georgetown. I wouldn't say JOB has ruined him at all.

I really didn't think Roy needed to bulk up, but losing 25 pounds hasn't helped him. He needed to get quicker and maintain that weight. Maybe I shouldn't be blaming O'Brien, but I think with a coach who doesn't require Hibbert to play at the elbow all game, then Hibbert could have kept the 25 pounds, got a little quicker, and be an overall more effective scoring option. It has helped his defense significantly but it has hurt his interior strength IMO.

Part Timer
11-17-2010, 07:29 PM
I really didn't think Roy needed to bulk up, but losing 25 pounds hasn't helped him. He needed to get quicker and maintain that weight. Maybe I shouldn't be blaming O'Brien, but I think with a coach who doesn't require Hibbert to play at the elbow all game, then Hibbert could have kept the 25 pounds, got a little quicker, and be an overall more effective scoring option. It has helped his defense significantly but it has hurt his interior strength IMO.

In one sentence you maintain that losing the weight hasn't helped him and in another you say it has helped his defense significantly?

If Hibbert had not lost the weight and gotten quicker he would be the same foul magnet that limited his minutes the last two years. He's not done shaping his body. Going forward he might be able to gain some of the weight back while not sacrificing the quickness, but this is not a process that can be completed in a single offseason.

d_c
11-17-2010, 07:38 PM
In one sentence you maintain that losing the weight hasn't helped him and in another you say it has helped his defense significantly?

If Hibbert had not lost the weight and gotten quicker he would be the same foul magnet that limited his minutes the last two years. He's not done shaping his body. Going forward he might be able to gain some of the weight back while not sacrificing the quickness, but this is not a process that can be completed in a single offseason.

Agreed with that.

The crucial thing losing weight does for Hibbert is it gets him in better condition. That's why he's actually been able to play over 30 mpg for the first time in his basketball career. He never even played that much that in college, when he was the best or 2nd best player on the team. Getting in better condition also means he's fouled less because a tired player always resorts to grabbing, reaching and holding.

Conditioning/stamina is still an issue for him. He's improved, but I don't think he has the stamina to muscle his way around the low block every single time down the floor for 30+ mpg. It takes a lot of energy to do that.

Putting him at the elbow half the time lets him pace himself and conserve energy. If you want him to post up everytime down the floor you're going to get a very tired Hibbert when the 4th quarter comes around.

spazzxb
11-17-2010, 08:15 PM
It's just a logical extension of where Roy is now. If he is given more minutes, if he is trusted by the coach to finish the game and is considered the focal point of the offense, I think 20/15/5/4 is very possible. Hell, maybe this could even happen under Jim Obrien. If only he trusted Roy like he does Dunleavy.

He played 33 minutes last night, that sounds about where it should be for someone his size.

Naptown_Seth
11-17-2010, 08:25 PM
Post-up defense, top 10 2010 NBA:


Plays PPP FG% %SF %TO
1. Al Horford 284 0.69 36.1 7.7 13.7
2. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 93 0.71 32.3 9.7 9.7
3. Dwight Howard 212 0.71 34.2 9.4 13.7
4. Mehmet Okur 233 0.71 34.7 10.3 15.5
5. Ben Wallace 208 0.73 39.1 5.8 12.5
6. Kendrick Perkins 226 0.75 37.4 6.2 10.2
7. Andrew Bynum 175 0.76 38.2 6.3 10.9
8. Jermaine O'Neal 233 0.76 40.1 11.2 12.0
9. Nene Hilario 293 0.77 42.5 9.9 17.1
10. Greg Oden 54 0.78 40.0 7.4 9.3 PPP is points per play, %SF is % shooting-fouls committed.

....

Points in the paint differential:

1. Orlando 21.6
2. Atlanta 15.0
3. LA Lakers 12.6
4. New Orleans 10.6
5. Chicago 9.6

Horford is permeable against really good post scorers, but other than that he's pretty good - especially because they can also bring an excellent weakside helper like Josh Smith.

Has Roy Hibbert scored in the post when defended by Horford a single time yesterday? I've only watched the 1st half and partially. He was struggling, made only 3/4 field goals including a couple of jumpers. I'll try to watch his post-up possessions.
Josh Smith gave them all sorts of post problems with his hops. As your numbers show, this team deals with height pretty well without having it themselves.


Putting him at the elbow half the time lets him pace himself and conserve energy. If you want him to post up everytime down the floor you're going to get a very tired Hibbert when the 4th quarter comes around. 100% agree. I mean we've seen this many times over. How about games where it would be Smits for one half and Reggie the other, just for starters.

You can't hand the ball off to Roy every play or have him be the starting pitcher every game. You use him to break scoring droughts and to act as the offensive anchor that other guys score off of.

Right now the biggest issue, despite good numbers, is how much offense they are getting from his passing. As he and his teammates improve together I think there is plenty of room to improve there. Maybe only a minor bump in direct assists, but also a reduction in TOs and an increase in passes that lead to the assisting pass.

In that regard I like to see the ball go through either Roy or Josh nearly every play, with every 3rd or 4th play working off a DC iso (not TJ so much since his ISO production is often streaky).



This thought process really bothers me because it assumes that Roy is somehow unstoppable if used correctly, and therefore the only reason Roy is stopped is when he isn't used correctly.

Against the Hawks, I think the Hawks DID adjust, and that stopped Roy. So, what does your "good" coach do? Not make a counter-adjustment and hope that the stopping was really only temporary or false?

The bash here in the past is that JOB ANTICIPATED adjustments, meaning he adjusted before guys were given the chance to do anything at all. I think this year he is adjusting AFTER something happens. He may not be adjusting in the way people want, or that hindsight dictates, but I don't think Roy camping in the low post against double teams is going to be a 20/15 guy every game without some additions to his skillset. He can get those additions, but they aren't there right now.I totally agree Bill. IMO this is something that's been a marked improvement for JOB, he's giving his assets a chance to pay off for him before switching away from them. I think this patience is an unexpected, highly productive change on his part.

My fundamental strategy for every sport is MAKE THEM MAKE THE PLAY. Sure nothing comes from rounding first hard or running the deep route most of the time, but you've got to make the other team prove they can handle it every single time (aka the anti-Moss strategy :) ).

Gamble1
11-17-2010, 08:35 PM
Yes, but TD is wide. A better player to ask is JO, who had very narrow shoulder and hips and that was the reason why he often led the NBA in getting his shots blocked and always had trouble getting low post position.
He had touble because he wan't a power type player if you know what i mean. The same as Bosh. I would also say that he got his shot blocked becuase he was very predictable.

In the NBA I see both types of players. Tall guys often times have the reach advantage but lack the leverage. IMO different body types lead to different playing styles simply becuase players lean on there God given stregths. I wouldn't call Rodman very wide or very tall but he was very good at reading the ball off the rim for rebounds.

Midcoasted
11-17-2010, 10:49 PM
In one sentence you maintain that losing the weight hasn't helped him and in another you say it has helped his defense significantly?

If Hibbert had not lost the weight and gotten quicker he would be the same foul magnet that limited his minutes the last two years. He's not done shaping his body. Going forward he might be able to gain some of the weight back while not sacrificing the quickness, but this is not a process that can be completed in a single offseason.

It has hurt his low post offensive game significantly, which we desperately need because without him we have none outside of Hansbrough but he is still figuring out the NBA and it may take some time to be fully effective.

I hope he maintains his speed but adds more muscle over time, espescially in his legs. It's not that he isn't as strong as the bigs gaurding him, they just have a better center of gravity against him. Therefore he has to get a little stronger in his lower core to negate that.

Trust me Roy Hibbert is my favorite player on the team. His growth has been great. I just think he may have lost a little to much weight. He should have maybe only lost 10 or 15 pounds and added a tad of muscle bulk. Weightlifting is the key I think. I don't know if a guy his size can do squats and lunges without risking injury to the knees, but if he can, then I believe that it would greatly benefit him if his body allows, if he isn't doing them already. The greatest thing I ever did for my vertical, speed, and core strength was do squats and lunges, with some calf weights as well.

PaceBalls
11-17-2010, 11:14 PM
He played 33 minutes last night, that sounds about where it should be for someone his size.

Yea, 33 minutes is ideal. It didn't seem like he was out there that much. I think not seeing him finishing the games was making me think he was not getting the minutes.

I still think he can be a 20/15 guy though and we could see it next year. He is only going to get better. I do appreciate how Jim is making an effort to get Roy alot of touches, what is bugging me the most is not seeing him finish.

Also, I would take Roy over Rik Smits everytime.

cordobes
11-18-2010, 10:17 AM
It's just a logical extension of where Roy is now. If he is given more minutes, if he is trusted by the coach to finish the game and is considered the focal point of the offense, I think 20/15/5/4 is very possible. Hell, maybe this could even happen under Jim Obrien. If only he trusted Roy like he does Dunleavy.

Dont' bet on that. Only one player in the history of the NBA averaged 20/15/5/4 - Kareem in 76, playing 41 minutes per game at a frenetic pace. Maybe Wilt Chamberlain did it too once or twice in the 60s, we don't have the block numbers to know. Olajuwon, Shaq, David Robinson.... nobody else did it.

I'm extremely doubtful Hibbert will ever in his NBA career post those numbers in a single game, let alone for a season. In the last 2 seasons, only Duncan, Gasol and Howard had a 20/15/5/4 game... and only 1 for each of them. Very rare event. Someone averaging that for a season? Once in the history of the league and isn't happening again any time soon.

PaceBalls
11-18-2010, 10:41 AM
Dont' bet on that. Only one player in the history of the NBA averaged 20/15/5/4 - Kareem in 76, playing 41 minutes per game at a frenetic pace. Maybe Wilt Chamberlain did it too once or twice in the 60s, we don't have the block numbers to know. Olajuwon, Shaq, David Robinson.... nobody else did it.

I'm extremely doubtful Hibbert will ever in his NBA career post those numbers in a single game, let alone for a season. In the last 2 seasons, only Duncan, Gasol and Howard had a 20/15/5/4 game... and only 1 for each of them. Very rare event. Someone averaging that for a season? Once in the history of the league and isn't happening again any time soon.

hehe... ok. So maybe my expectations are a bit high :p

I think that does put into perspective what a good season Roy is having right now though.

16.3ppg 10.2rpg 3.4apg 2.78bpg

QuickRelease
11-18-2010, 12:15 PM
Agreed with that.

The crucial thing losing weight does for Hibbert is it gets him in better condition. That's why he's actually been able to play over 30 mpg for the first time in his basketball career. He never even played that much that in college, when he was the best or 2nd best player on the team. Getting in better condition also means he's fouled less because a tired player always resorts to grabbing, reaching and holding.

Conditioning/stamina is still an issue for him. He's improved, but I don't think he has the stamina to muscle his way around the low block every single time down the floor for 30+ mpg. It takes a lot of energy to do that.

Putting him at the elbow half the time lets him pace himself and conserve energy. If you want him to post up everytime down the floor you're going to get a very tired Hibbert when the 4th quarter comes around.That also might have been due to that previously undetected asthma issue.

BillS
11-18-2010, 12:37 PM
I totally agree Bill.

My heart ... my heart ...

:buddies:

Hicks
11-18-2010, 01:03 PM
That also might have been due to that previously undetected asthma issue.

It was detected, and being treated, just improperly. They fixed his meds (either what he was taking, or how he took it was addressed), and now it's not bothering him like it used to.

nerveghost
11-18-2010, 01:27 PM
Roy will get better. Give him time - still only a 3rd year center. Considering he was a second round draft pick, his development is fantastic.

vnzla81
11-18-2010, 01:29 PM
Roy will get better. Give him time - still only a 3rd year center. Considering he was a second round draft pick, his development is fantastic.

uh?

Hicks
11-18-2010, 01:29 PM
Roy will get better. Give him time - still only a 3rd year center. Considering he was a second round draft pick, his development is fantastic.

He was a first round draft pick.

naptownmenace
11-18-2010, 01:35 PM
Roy's doing fine. He's still in the on-the-job training portion of his career.

If he's still struggling with making shots by the end of the year and next season, then we can worry a little. Right now, I'm enjoying his progress more than focusing on his weaknesses.

Speed
11-18-2010, 01:48 PM
I'm extremely doubtful Hibbert will ever in his NBA career post those numbers in a single game, let alone for a season. In the last 2 seasons, only Duncan, Gasol and Howard had a 20/15/5/4 game... and only 1 for each of them. Very rare event. Someone averaging that for a season? Once in the history of the league and isn't happening again any time soon.

Versus Milwaukee on Nov 5th, he was 6 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist away.

Against Cleveland Nov 13th, he was 2 pts, 2 assist and 3 blocks away.

I think he does it this year in a game.

I'm assuming the "5" is assists and the "4" is blocks, right?