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RoboHicks
11-17-2010, 03:00 AM
Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds
Written by Peck

Link (http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/?p=252)


http://staffwww.fullcoll.edu/tmorris/lab/images/red_tail_hawk.jpg

If I went to you before the game tonight and told you that Danny Granger would outplay Joe Johnson significantly and Roy Hibbert would render Al Horford essentially irrelevant you would probably think that Pacers had a better chance than not of winning the game.

Sadly, as most expected, that was not the result of the game.

I would love to use the excuse that Darren Collison & Tyler Hansbrough being out of our lineup caused us to not be able to compete and win but then I have to remind myself that the Pacers have recently lost to a couple of teams missing key players and took everything in their power to beat the Cavaliers who were also missing key players.

This is the NBA and injuries are just part of it, you do what you can to compensate and then you move on.

Which, in all honesty, the Pacers did as well as they could tonight.* Both T.J. & James Posey provided adequate relief and while I am certain that we might have played better in spots with the missing players, at the end of the day I am not certain the end result would have been any different.

Iím a little short on time tonight so Iím just going back to the old standard of the good, the bad & the ugly to review the game.

The Good:

Danny Granger was just outstanding tonight.* He played hard on both sides of the floor and the fact that he played hard defense and did not foul one time is absolutely amazing.* If he had any faults at all tonight it might be in the fact that he didnít shoot enough.* He was 50% from the field and really he would have been above that if not for desperation threeís that we were trying to get up at the end of the game.* He defended and in my opinion locked down Joe Johnson for most of the night.* He might have been a little more active on the glass but 6 rebounds are respectable.* So while he didnít get a lot of help tonight he certainly tried his best on both ends of the floor.

Roy Hibbert outplayed Al Horford.* I actually felt good typing that because I believe that is the first time I have ever been able to say that or for that matter not need a stress debriefing after watching Al abuse Roy in the post.* But for tonight Roy more than held his own and in fact outplayed Al in their one on one matchups.* Itís too bad that the skills that Roy brings to the game are not valued by our coach down towards the end of the game.* For the life of me I will never understand why we take our best rebounder, our only low post defender and our only real low post threat and sit him on the bench at the end of games.* I understand that they may need or want to shoot three point shots (I wonít insert the insanely easy jokes to be made about our offense and three point shots here) down towards the end but you still need someone to rebound the ball and defend the other end.* When he was taken out of the game Roy spent the rest of the night looking dejected and very down, which I know he takes losses very hard and personal but some of this had to be because he wasnít given a chance to help towards the end.*

Solomon Jones, yes Solomon Jones.* No you didnít read that wrong.* Look he is what he is and frankly that often leaves something to be desired but tonight he gave you about everything you could ever expect from him even going so far as to grab 3 rebounds in one game.* I felt like that right there merited an entire post and celebration but then I thought that maybe that was overboard.* He was perfect from the field and even managed to make Horford eat a shot which had to come as a real surprise to him.* While this isnít the biggest ringing endorsement that you can get I will still just say that he gave you everything he could and that is all you can ever ask of a player.

The Bad:

Iím tempted to just right ďeverybody elseĒ but that is not really fair or accurate as both T.J. Ford & James Posey played to the best of their abilities however neither should be required to give you this many minutes in a game so I think for the most part I am going to give them a pass for the night and even say that they tried.* In fact James played great in the first quarter but soon after that Josh Smithís athletic ability just overwhelmed him.

Josh McRoberts is on the verge of taking his starting power forward position and throwing it in the can.* The only thing saving him right now is that Tyler is not really ready to take it at the moment and I think they wanted to wait a few games before they inserted Posey into the slot.* While I want to hate on OíBrien for this, it is hard to argue against it.* While I love Josh and wanted him to start I will not be a hypocrite here and let him get a pass on the very same thing that I used to complain about with Jeff Foster.* Josh has got to get some form of offense.* I donít care if itís a fact up jumper, a post up move, a slash to the basket or a hook shot.* He has become a detriment on the offensive end because teams are now not only sagging off of him they are actually leaving him to double the ball and Josh does not make them pay.* I donít know if he has lost his confidence or what but for Godís sake he only got up 3 shots in 23 minutes of play.* This is not acceptable and will be the reason why I am going to have to suffer watching James Posey play vs. Blake Griffin on Thursday.* His defense was solid and I donít know if itís true or not yet but I read where Smith only scored 2 points when Josh was on him.* While that is great if true it still does not excuse his inept offensive production.

Jim OíBrien didnít blow the game but he didnít help either.* For those of you that follow the Pacers Digest main board you know that I am doing my absolute best to not be overly critical of the coaching and am trying to look for positives.* In fact we are in official dťtente mode; however it is getting harder every game.* Look again nobody has to remind me that he does not have an abundance of talent to work with and yes we all know that his offense is not designed to take quick bad shots or an abundance of three point shots but is actually designed to open up the driving lanes so that our cutters (as if those actually existed) will get to the basket and hopefully to the line.* The problem is though that when this does not work either by the opponentís adjustments or just simply by the fact that we are not hitting shots our offense comes to a quick and startling halt.* Tonight in the second half that very thing happened.* The Hawks just packed the lane and for some reason we decided that Roy who in the first half was very effective needed to go from the low post to the high post and initiate the offense.* Now seeing as how Roy & Danny were really the only ones scoring Iím not sure who they thought would pick up the slack.* Also for four games now, which by the way we are now 1-3 in, he has decided that Roy Hibbert needs to sit on the bench and his closing unit is Mike Dunleavy, Danny Granger, James Posey, T.J. Ford and usually Josh at center.* Tonight our closing lineup in the last minute consisted of Danny Granger playing center and yes the results were exactly what you thought they might be as the only rebound we secured was off of a Mike Bibby missed free throw.* In other words slowly, some might even add sneakily, Jim OíBrien has started to add his small lineup back into the mix.* Again I will say what I always say there is a time and a place for a small lineup but they need to be faster and more athletic.* Our small lineup is slow and usually not athletic but they usually share one thing in common, they can shoot from distance.* Doesnít mean they hit but they can shoot.* This all has the horrid ominous ring of past seasons to me.

Again, Iím not turning.* But now I am adding the word yet to that statement because I am starting to see more and more things sneak onto the floor that just look way to familiar to me.

The Ugly:

Zaza Pachuliaís head is just absolutely huge.* Iím talking the leader from the Hulk comic books huge.* His head is bigger than any other two players heads combined bad.*

Quick Hits Bullet Point Style


Ok I think that we should have Paul Georgeís attention, now next game he needs some time on the floor.
I am going to be attending some form of religious service soon because when Brandon Rush shoots 4 free throws in one game I know the apocalypse is coming.
Love my boys up in area 55 but you guys might want to not be chanting when they are honoring local heroes.*
Half time was a skate team from Kokomo which drew the following tweet from Austin Croshere ďWorst half-time show ever!! Lame roller skaters. Wow terrible!!Ē
While Iím certain that Austin will not be on the skaters Christmas list this year I have a feeling this tweet wonít make him popular with OíBrien either.* ďLive by the 3, die by the 3! Must find other ways ti score.Ē
http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png (http://www.addtoany.com/share_save)

Peck
11-17-2010, 03:18 AM
Ok I had a tweet in there from Mike Wells but I erased it because he erased the tweet.

He now has the quote in today's article in the star online.

Needless to say I get very sick of Jim's condescending attitude towards his players at times & unless this is taken out of context I think that this is one of those things that he should have just kept to himself. Who does he think got Horford in foul trouble? Yes, let's denegrate a player for doing his job and actually outplaying the people he is supposed to outplay. I feel confident that this is in response to a quesiton asking why Roy was moved away from the basket and not utilized on the offensive end in the second half.

God forbid he ever admit that maybe just maybe he didn't do a good enough job in getting Roy some looks.

I hope you guys on the pro O'Brien side of the fence appreciate the fact that I am not going on a 32 page rant about this because believe me I want to.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20101117/SPORTS04/11170327/1062/SPORTS04/Atlanta-domination


Atlanta domination
Hawks knock off Pacers for 7th consecutive time
Nov 17, 2010 |

Written by
Mike Wells
There are just some teams that are a nagging thorn in the Indiana Pacers' side. The kind that no matter how hard or well they play they can't do enough to beat them.

The Atlanta Hawks are the team that continues to poke the Pacers harder and harder each time they play them.

The Hawks toyed with the Pacers for the first 24 minutes before locking in during the second half to extend their winning streak in the series to seven games.

A bad third quarter did in the Pacers during their 102-92 loss to the Hawks on Tuesday night at Conseco Fieldhouse.

"We came out with no energy and just didn't seem to be able to get in the groove," Pacers forward Mike Dunleavy said. "They're a tough team for us to match up with and they really played us tough from start to finish."

The Hawks' athleticism presents challenges across the board for the Pacers.

Contain one player -- Joe Johnson -- and another player -- Josh Smith -- steps up.

Danny Granger held Johnson, an All-Star, to 11 points on 4-of-12 shooting, but Smith picked up the slack.

Smith used his height to take advantage of James Posey and Josh McRoberts in the post for easy baskets.

Smith abused the Pacers power forwards to get 25 points, eight rebounds and seven blocks.

"It seemed like Josh Smith couldn't miss throughout the game," Granger said.

Smith did most of his damage in the third quarter, when the Hawks broke open a close game.

He had nine of his team's 11 points during one stretch to help Atlanta take a 12-point lead into the final quarter.

All five Hawks starters scored in double figures and they shot 50 percent from the field, including 53 percent on 3-pointers.

"We lost to a very good basketball team," Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said. "They have a lot of weapons. They played together and they're well-coached. Josh Smith was terrific."

The Pacers had their own offensive weapon going in the first half.

Center Roy Hibbert, who has had problems against center Al Horford in the past, came out determined to give the Pacers a presence in the post.

The third-year center had 14 points, eight rebounds and two assists in 17 minutes in the first half.

The second half, well, was a totally different game for Hibbert.

He went from getting the ball in the post to having to play out around the foul line where he wasn't as effective.

Hibbert scored only four points and attempted six shots in the final 24 minutes of the game.

He was limited to one shot attempt in the third quarter when the Hawks got their double-digit lead.

Hibbert finished with 18 points and 15 rebounds. Granger led the Pacers with 22 points.

"I think they got under him (Hibbert) pretty effectively," O'Brien said. "We tried to get the ball to him on pick-and-roll plays. They do a very good job of guarding the pick-and-roll.

". . . He certainly went off in the first half, but it was against their second-string centers. Horford was in foul trouble."
Etc.
The Pacers were without starting PG Darren Collison and backup PF Tyler Hansbrough, who were out with ankle injuries. O'Brien said he is not sure how long either player could be out.

Diamond Dave
11-17-2010, 03:40 AM
My detente is officially over. I want someone with a straight face to actually tell me they believe that JOB doesn't actually value the 2 threes that Posey made more than he values the 16 rebounds Roy had.

You can't do it! If you can, then you must live with the fact that you know that deep down somewhere in your soul you are a liar.

:angry:

able
11-17-2010, 05:22 AM
The day Jimmy is fired is the day i order tickets to come over again.

skip2mylou
11-17-2010, 06:15 AM
I think O'brien benched Roy for a defensive mistake. Right before he got benched, he left Horford wiiiiide open.
Not that i agree with it, but I do think there's a reason for his strange substitutions. I believe it's mostly just punishment for mistakes.

I refuse to believe that anybody thinks S.Jones gives you a better chance to win than Roy Hibbert. So, I hope I'am right.

McKeyFan
11-17-2010, 08:31 AM
JOB is a mini despot, and we are under his tyranny until someone delivers us.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 08:43 AM
Oh, so I guess this is a rip JOB thread. OK

Alabama-Redneck
11-17-2010, 08:54 AM
The day Jimmy is fired is the day i order tickets to come over again.

I'm looking forward to seeing you very, very soon. And yes, I will drive up from Alabama to pick you up from the airport

:cool:

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 09:02 AM
He went from getting the ball in the post to having to play out around the foul line where he wasn't as effective.



What needs to be carefully analyzed is what caused Roy to "have to play around the foul line" Was it the Hawks defense, Pacers running different plays, Pacers not executing, Roy not working for low post position. That is what we need to know and without re-watching the second half, I just don't know

Trader Joe
11-17-2010, 09:10 AM
Roy was good last night, but come on he shot 6/16 from the field. That's terrible for a big man, and his shooting percentage this season is JO-esque.

I'm surprised you're not all over that Peck considering you and many other rode JO out on a rail over his shooting %'s as a big man.

That being said JOB's quote is ridiculous, but Roy MUST fix his shooting %'s. He needs to be much closer to 50% and right now he's trending toward 40%.

Trader Joe
11-17-2010, 09:13 AM
Oh, also, Roy has apparently decided he'd like to give Jeff Foster a run for his money for the title of Pacers big man who misses the most layups. I mean good Lord, I think Roy is shooting a higher % on his hook shot than he is on wide open layups for the season.

DUNK THE FRIGGIN' BALL FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY.

Brad8888
11-17-2010, 10:17 AM
I will preface this by saying that I did not watch last night's game, but I have read the majority of the post game thread plus Peck's synopsis in this thread.

I assume that McRoberts was not in the paint much offensively for last night's game, as he has not been much this season due to his new function as an offensive facilitator from the high post. He only took 3 shots according to the box score, so I assume his touches in any kind of scoring position were almost non-existent for whatever reason, or that he was more focused on getting the ball to Roy who missed shots. Again, I am just guessing, primarily about Josh getting the ball to Roy when Roy was missing shots.

Again, McRoberts is being played at a position on the floor that limits his overall effectiveness. Yes, he can pass, and he is working on being better at setting screens. Those are the positives of his playing there. Josh's ability to dash to the rim from the high post is pretty much limited to non-existent as soon as the opposition decides to pack the paint to stop our penetration and dare Roy to beat them from the perimeter because the Pacers will not go to him in traffic due to his inability to get quality shots off consistently when teams have players put a body on him to keep him off balance due to his lack of good footwork.

So now, as a result of Josh adapting his game to suit O'Brien's plan, what we have in Josh is a one dimensional offensive player, and a large part of that is the fact that he is not a jump shooter. He is now just a passer, and primarily to Roy or other cutters, and as soon as the opposition packs the paint, Josh is no longer effective because he cannot hit shots from 15 feet and out. He still plays good defense, and he is rebounding effectively, and I suspect he is assuming some of the blocking out responsibility that is allowing Roy and others to get the former rebounds of Murphy.

Last year, Josh was a more effective player because he was a threat to use his energy to be explosive because his role was less defined due to O'Brien not actually planning to use him at any time, which forced other teams to have to look out for him because they never could be sure where he was going to come from, and he was always a mismatch in the Pacers favor as a result.

So, Josh should take Paul George's advice and say "eff it" and unleash the game he has bottled up inside him. That is a shot in the arm that the Pacers really need at this point. I realize that saying "eff it" is likely what has George glued to the bench, but at this point Josh is about to head there anyway because Posey can hit jumpers on occasion despite the shortfalls throughout the remainder of his game on both ends of the floor.

As I have also posted elsewhere previously, I suspect that the PnR game will die a slow death, and that Roy will become marginalized due to his inability to play a power game in the low post, and that teams will increasingly dare him to score from the perimeter unless the Pacers actually install a passing and player movement oriented offense in the half court that is designed to draw defenders away from the paint because so many players will be free in scoring positions in the midrange that the defenders won't be able to pack the paint. It will take a radical change in O'Brien's philosophy of basketball for that to happen, and I don't look for that to occur.

MagicRat
11-17-2010, 11:08 AM
Josh McRoberts is on the verge of taking his starting power forward position and throwing it in the can.* The only thing saving him right now is that Tyler is not really ready to take it at the moment and I think they wanted to wait a few games before they inserted Posey into the slot.* While I want to hate on OíBrien for this, it is hard to argue against it.* While I love Josh and wanted him to start I will not be a hypocrite here and let him get a pass on the very same thing that I used to complain about with Jeff Foster.* Josh has got to get some form of offense.* I donít care if itís a fact up jumper, a post up move, a slash to the basket or a hook shot.* He has become a detriment on the offensive end because teams are now not only sagging off of him they are actually leaving him to double the ball and Josh does not make them pay.* I donít know if he has lost his confidence or what but for Godís sake he only got up 3 shots in 23 minutes of play.* This is not acceptable and will be the reason why I am going to have to suffer watching James Posey play vs. Blake Griffin on Thursday.* His defense was solid and I donít know if itís true or not yet but I read where Smith only scored 2 points when Josh was on him.* While that is great if true it still does not excuse his inept offensive production.

Sounds like somebody misses Troy Murphy......:console:

Gamble1
11-17-2010, 11:14 AM
So now, as a result of Josh adapting his game to suit O'Brien's plan, what we have in Josh is a one dimensional offensive player, and a large part of that is the fact that he is not a jump shooter. He is now just a passer, and primarily to Roy or other cutters, and as soon as the opposition packs the paint, Josh is no longer effective because he cannot hit shots from 15 feet and out. He still plays good defense, and he is rebounding effectively, and I suspect he is assuming some of the blocking out responsibility that is allowing Roy and others to get the former rebounds of Murphy.

Asking a NBA player to hit a 15 foot jump shot shouldn't be that big of a deal IMO. I really don't blame josh for yesterdays failures but if he wants to start he has to offer more than just than just 5 points and 6.6 rebounds a game. Defensively he's pretty good but I really have a hard time believing that what he is being asked to do is just totally hindering him as player. Out of the starting five he is the last guy I care about offensively because he has shown the least ability to doing anything with the ball outiside of dunks and put backs.

I think Tyler will be starting here soon.

Bball
11-17-2010, 11:16 AM
Oh, so I guess this is a rip JOB thread. OK

Jim O'Brien isn't the only thing wrong with the Pacers but he's certainly one of them. And high on the list as well....

Speed
11-17-2010, 11:28 AM
Many said it on the Post game thread, they got beat by a better team. That simple really. They competed the first half admirably. Showed signs of being good enough.

Honestly, with Hansbrough and Collison out, the drop off is pretty dramatic in my estimation. TJ is an above average back up and a below average starter. Hansbrough would have gotten all of Posey's 2nd half minutes against Josh Smith who absolutely torched them and was the main difference, imo.

I look forward to playing them again, I think DC can run Bibby off the court so you won't have those big 3s at the end of the half as much. I think Hansbrough can at least move his feet moreso than Posey, well, God I'd hope so.

I look at guys like Solo who probably had his best game this year and think, wow he's just not that good.

I think looking at Roy's usage and shooting percentage is really just nit picking. Not that it's not valid overall to critique anyone on the team, it's just last night they were outmanned. Roy had to assert himself, had to shoot 16 times, had to take tougher shots under the circumstance, imo.

Atlanta is good, I've gotten the chance to see them play a few times already this season. They are a good team that has tough matchups for the Pacers.

It shows you how important DC can be, when he's not available you really lose quite a bit in offensive fire power. It also shows how Hanbrough is needed, he helps get over those intensity humps throughout games.

Live to fight another day. I was happy they competed honestly.

I couldn't have been happier with Danny's D, maybe one of his best efforts since shutting down Chris Bosh in the 4th quarter last year.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 11:28 AM
Sounds like somebody misses Troy Murphy......:console:

We got the new Troy Murphy in Posey.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 11:42 AM
It shows you how important DC can be, when he's not available you really lose quite a bit in offensive fire power. It also shows how Hanbrough is needed, he helps get over those intensity humps throughout games.


Yes the Pacers need them both. I never underestimate the value of a hustle player like Tyler even if it is only for 12 minutes in a game, that can be a big difference maker.

But I think we missed Collison even more - he is extremely important to our offense and even though I've been disappointed in his defense, offensively he is a big upgrade over the point guards we have had

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 11:45 AM
I am really glad I never got to agree on the detente thing because I knew that Jim was coming back to his old self, TJ,Rush,Dun,Danny and Posey together? :laugh:

I know people keep making excuses that if we had Collison and Hansbrough Jim could have play them longer, make the right adjustment and put Hansbrough on Smith and things like that, what people forget is that in the previous games Hansbrough was seating on the bench watching Posey jacking up threes.

Lets be real here, Jim was not going to play Hansbrough that many minutes because HE CAN'T SHOOT THE THREE, it doesn't matter if Posey was getting abuse, we seen this movie many times, has anybody forgot Troy Murphy?


He certainly went off in the first half, but it was against their second-string centers. Horford was in foul trouble."

There is not excuse for him to be saying this about one of his best players, this sounds to me like the time he said that Josh game was irrelevant :censored:

CableKC
11-17-2010, 11:53 AM
I think O'brien benched Roy for a defensive mistake. Right before he got benched, he left Horford wiiiiide open.
Not that i agree with it, but I do think there's a reason for his strange substitutions. I believe it's mostly just punishment for mistakes.

I refuse to believe that anybody thinks S.Jones gives you a better chance to win than Roy Hibbert. So, I hope I'am right.
To be fair....at least in this one game....Solo was doing a fairly good job of defending Horford. I'm not saying that Solo should have played more minutes then Hibbert in the 2nd half.......I'm just saying that Solo was very active when it came to defending him. I'm guessing all those practice times with Horford when he was a Hawk paid off.

Now, if we could play the Hawks for the rest of the season...then Solo would actually be useful for us on a regular basis.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 12:31 PM
The day Jimmy is fired is the day i order tickets to come over again.

You may be missing out on an opportunity here. Come over now, and you get to yell at him during a game, "I LITERALLY flew in here from London, England to say that you SUCK! *boo*" :D

Peck
11-17-2010, 12:41 PM
On that note I do want to say & I know Gnome can confirm but the catcalls were coming loud and often at the end of the game against O'Brien from our end of the court (no it wasn't us) (ok edit, it wasn't me Diamond Dave let loose a few shout outs to our favorite hair dyed coach)

Also it may be time to start cranking up the music again during intro's as the last two games when he is announced the boo's are starting to fly.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 12:48 PM
On that note I do want to say & I know Gnome can confirm but the catcalls were coming loud and often at the end of the game against O'Brien from our end of the court (no it wasn't us) (ok edit, it wasn't me Diamond Dave let loose a few shout outs to our favorite hair dyed coach)

Also it may be time to start cranking up the music again during intro's as the last two games when he is announced the boo's are starting to fly.

I noticed(at least on tv) that MG tryes to call his name real quick and move on, is he taking longer now? (saying Jim O'brien)

cordobes
11-17-2010, 01:08 PM
Ok I had a tweet in there from Mike Wells but I erased it because he erased the tweet.

He now has the quote in today's article in the star online.

Needless to say I get very sick of Jim's condescending attitude towards his players at times & unless this is taken out of context I think that this is one of those things that he should have just kept to himself. Who does he think got Horford in foul trouble? Yes, let's denegrate a player for doing his job and actually outplaying the people he is supposed to outplay. I feel confident that this is in response to a quesiton asking why Roy was moved away from the basket and not utilized on the offensive end in the second half.

God forbid he ever admit that maybe just maybe he didn't do a good enough job in getting Roy some looks.

I hope you guys on the pro O'Brien side of the fence appreciate the fact that I am not going on a 32 page rant about this because believe me I want to.

I don't know, but why do you believe that Hibbert got Horford in foul trouble? Horford fouled Hibbert once in the entire game. Finished the game with only 2 fouls actually. The reason he didn't play more was because he committed the 2nd one right after coming back and then Jason Collins was taking care of the business.

I don't think that's denigrating a player. It's just true. Horford outplayed Hibbert - like he's been doing in the last 2 seasons - and it wasn't particularly close. Hibbert played decently vs. Collins. When he had to deal with Horford, he was never able to get deep position. And he forced Horford to commit a shooting foul the entire game.

Peck
11-17-2010, 01:18 PM
I don't know, but why do you believe that Hibbert got Horford in foul trouble? Horford fouled Hibbert once in the entire game. Finished the game with only 2 fouls actually. The reason he didn't play more was because he committed the 2nd one right after coming back and then Jason Collins was taking care of the business.

I don't think that's denigrating a player. It's just true. Horford outplayed Hibbert - like he's been doing in the last 2 seasons - and it wasn't particularly close. Hibbert played decently vs. Collins. When he had to deal with Horford, he was never able to get deep position. And he forced Horford to commit a shooting foul the entire game.

Hmmmm... my memory may be off then as I thought that Horford fouled Roy but to be honest I'm going off of live memory of being at the game so I may be off.

But either way I still beleive that you don't make a comment like that about a player doing what he was supposed to be doing.

Also my memory of the game must be way off then as I do not think that Al Horford outplayed Roy at all. At best in the second half he may have neutralized him but he wasn't lighting up the world either.

Peck
11-17-2010, 01:25 PM
I want to update my post here as I can not edit it out of my main thread.

IndyHoya one of Area55's finest has informed me that they were chanting the name of the kid that was being honored during the local hero ceremony as one of the members went to church with him so they were trying to give him a boost by chanting his name.

In my defense I did not understand their chant on that & thought they were practicing for the rest of the game.

So my apologies to area55 as not only was my comment wrong but your chant was for a good cause and admirable.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:23 PM
Roy Hibbert last night: 18 points (6-16, 6-8 FT), 15 rebounds (7 offensive), 3 assists (3 TO), 1 steal, 1 block (3 BA).

Al Horford last night: 15 points (7-12, 1-1 FT), 6 rebounds (3 offensive), 3 assists (2 TO), 0 steals, 0 blocks (2 BA).

I don't agree at all that, "Horford outplayed Hibbert - like he's been doing in the last 2 seasons - and it wasn't particularly close."

Hicks
11-17-2010, 02:25 PM
I see, too, that Roy was the only Pacer with a positive +/-, by the way.

Bball
11-17-2010, 02:26 PM
I see, too, that Roy was the only Pacer with a positive +/-, by the way.

That stat doesn't matter to Jim O' Contradictory... except when it does...

cordobes
11-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Roy Hibbert last night: 18 points (6-16, 6-8 FT), 15 rebounds (7 offensive), 3 assists (3 TO), 1 steal, 1 block (3 BA).

Al Horford last night: 15 points (7-12, 1-1 FT), 6 rebounds (3 offensive), 3 assists (2 TO), 0 steals, 0 blocks (2 BA).

I don't agree at all that, "Horford outplayed Hibbert - like he's been doing in the last 2 seasons - and it wasn't particularly close."

Fair enough, Hibbert hit the boards hard enough and he played an important part in the Pacers strategy of packing the lane - even though it proved to be a losing strategy as the Hawks got plenty of good lucks because the Pacers players would always drop out so deeply that they weren't able to close out in time to contest the shot.

Still, an important factor about who outplayed whom is the point that JOB and this Hawks blogger made:

Hoopinion: (http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2010/11/quotes-notes-and-links-atlanta-hawks_17.html)


Roy Hibbert:

"I wasn’t able to get to my sweet spots where I wanted to go. They did a good job of pressuring me. I should be able to do more. I can’t have a real good first half and drop off in the second half."

You can when Josh Powell and Jason Collins disappear from the court.

Peck
11-17-2010, 04:35 PM
Fair enough, Hibbert hit the boards hard enough and he played an important part in the Pacers strategy of packing the lane - even though it proved to be a losing strategy as the Hawks got plenty of good lucks because the Pacers players would always drop out so deeply that they weren't able to close out in time to contest the shot.

Still, an important factor about who outplayed whom is the point that JOB and this Hawks blogger made:

Hoopinion: (http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2010/11/quotes-notes-and-links-atlanta-hawks_17.html)

I know that this is just symantics at this point but I don't call neutralizing on offense outplaying.

Roy still rebounded, Roy still defended & frankly Roy still did score.

He outrebounded Al & he outscored Al.

MLB007
11-17-2010, 04:47 PM
Oh, so I guess this is a rip JOB thread. OK

Aren't they all? :rolleyes:

Eleazar
11-17-2010, 04:51 PM
I will preface this by saying that I did not watch last night's game, but I have read the majority of the post game thread plus Peck's synopsis in this thread.

I assume that McRoberts was not in the paint much offensively for last night's game, as he has not been much this season due to his new function as an offensive facilitator from the high post. He only took 3 shots according to the box score, so I assume his touches in any kind of scoring position were almost non-existent for whatever reason, or that he was more focused on getting the ball to Roy who missed shots. Again, I am just guessing, primarily about Josh getting the ball to Roy when Roy was missing shots.

Again, McRoberts is being played at a position on the floor that limits his overall effectiveness. Yes, he can pass, and he is working on being better at setting screens. Those are the positives of his playing there. Josh's ability to dash to the rim from the high post is pretty much limited to non-existent as soon as the opposition decides to pack the paint to stop our penetration and dare Roy to beat them from the perimeter because the Pacers will not go to him in traffic due to his inability to get quality shots off consistently when teams have players put a body on him to keep him off balance due to his lack of good footwork.

So now, as a result of Josh adapting his game to suit O'Brien's plan, what we have in Josh is a one dimensional offensive player, and a large part of that is the fact that he is not a jump shooter. He is now just a passer, and primarily to Roy or other cutters, and as soon as the opposition packs the paint, Josh is no longer effective because he cannot hit shots from 15 feet and out. He still plays good defense, and he is rebounding effectively, and I suspect he is assuming some of the blocking out responsibility that is allowing Roy and others to get the former rebounds of Murphy.

Last year, Josh was a more effective player because he was a threat to use his energy to be explosive because his role was less defined due to O'Brien not actually planning to use him at any time, which forced other teams to have to look out for him because they never could be sure where he was going to come from, and he was always a mismatch in the Pacers favor as a result.

So, Josh should take Paul George's advice and say "eff it" and unleash the game he has bottled up inside him. That is a shot in the arm that the Pacers really need at this point. I realize that saying "eff it" is likely what has George glued to the bench, but at this point Josh is about to head there anyway because Posey can hit jumpers on occasion despite the shortfalls throughout the remainder of his game on both ends of the floor.

As I have also posted elsewhere previously, I suspect that the PnR game will die a slow death, and that Roy will become marginalized due to his inability to play a power game in the low post, and that teams will increasingly dare him to score from the perimeter unless the Pacers actually install a passing and player movement oriented offense in the half court that is designed to draw defenders away from the paint because so many players will be free in scoring positions in the midrange that the defenders won't be able to pack the paint. It will take a radical change in O'Brien's philosophy of basketball for that to happen, and I don't look for that to occur.

Although I think there is some truth to that I think what you are see with him is what happens when a back-up plays as the starter. I'm willing to bet if it was Hansbrough starting people would be more satisfied with McRoberts. If we had a a true starting PF the complaints people have about McRoberts would mostly go away.

cordobes
11-17-2010, 05:23 PM
I know that this is just symantics at this point but I don't call neutralizing on offense outplaying.

Roy still rebounded, Roy still defended & frankly Roy still did score.

He outrebounded Al & he outscored Al.

It's not just semantics, we're indeed talking about different things.

You're saying he outscored Horford because he scored 18 points and Horford scored 15. That's a way of seeing it.

But he scored 8 of his points when he was being guarded by Jason Collins + Josh Powell in the last 7 minutes of the 2nd Q and 2 more when guarded by Pachulia in the first moments of the 4th. When Horford was on the floor, he only scored 8 points - at the expense of firing 9 shots. During that same time, Horford scored 11 points. 11>8 and Horford was quite more efficient.

So, Hibbert produced more than Horford during the game. But not while they were matched up with each other - and that was my original perspective.

I guess we can all agree on giving Hibbert credit for outplaying Horford when the Hawks center was sitting on the bench.

Peck
11-17-2010, 05:31 PM
It's not just semantics, we're indeed talking about different things.

You're saying he outscored Horford because he scored 18 points and Horford scored 15. That's a way of seeing it.

But he scored 8 of his points when he was being guarded by Jason Collins + Josh Powell in the last 7 minutes of the 2nd Q and 2 more when guarded by Pachulia in the first moments of the 4th. When Horford was on the floor, he only scored 8 points - at the expense of firing 9 shots. During that same time, Horford scored 11 points. 11>8 and Horford was quite more efficient.

So, Hibbert produced more than Horford during the game. But not while they were matched up with each other - and that was my original perspective.

I guess we can all agree on giving Hibbert credit for outplaying Horford when the Hawks center was sitting on the bench.

Did he not grab any rebounds vs. Horford?

Also how is scoring 3 more points in tune with this comment. "Horford outplayed Hibbert - like he's been doing in the last 2 seasons - and it wasn't particularly close"

cordobes
11-17-2010, 06:17 PM
I wanted to see if I were missing anything about how Hibbert played and was used in this game and I went through his offensive possessions when defended by Horford.

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/97rhiik40e9ub14hca10.png

First possession, the Pacers use a good misdirection to get position for Hibbert running Ford through a screen, Horford fronts Hibbert, Dunleavy throws the lob pass but Hibbert fumbles the ball. Turnover.

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http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/ern5twq78ymcgi7a5fqo.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/0xlyiuqwlbdvudr92ll9.png



A good play, Ford attacks the baseline, Hibbert flashes to the weakside elbow and then cuts to the basket. Unfortunately he allowed Smith to alter his shot, turnover.

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http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/gkg37bcsapt777snj968.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/wjzxuwrqk8v9zot1dk9t.png


http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/thn4zlu3roczi6klst03.png

This is the stuff you guys would like to see more: Pacers isolate Hibbert in the mid-post, good feed by Dunleavy, post-up. He's not successful backing down Horford, but ends up hitting a lefty running hook from 8ft.


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http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/mo0e51c91r48r3t2vuf.png


Here Hibbert/Granger run a pick'n'roll from the top, Hibbert rolls, Granger passes but Smith makes a good shot helping, blocking Hibbert's shot. He gets back the ball though and scores on a putback.

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http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/8e1ta2s67kwur9hw.png


http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/t0s7t0k7fc2djwtwcqz.png

Once again, Hibbert posting up Horford, Dunleavy feeding. The spacing is good, but Hibbert fails to get a shot off after an awkward drive to the right. He ends up dumping the ball to Ford in the perimeter.

Horford keeps defending Hibbert straight up, from behind, no doubles.

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/d1dqcjyku4k7stn5014n.png

Still in the same play, Ford and Hibbert eventually run a little pick'n'pop from the wing and Hibbert misses an open 20 ft. jumper.

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http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/dbonjo8pvta7v94srt6.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/6albnrw0wctxkhvan05m.png

Another interesting misdirection play to finally feed Hibbert in the right block. Once again he isn't able to conquer floor, but turns to his right shoulder and draws the foul. Horford pays the price for guarding him too close. 2 more points.

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http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/8sl7j5om24hrpbfu5nt.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/u6azzj1po3yk2xgwlr.png


http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/3xpw6cds8xgalour6psl.png

The Pacers immediately try to go to Hibbert on the low block again. But he's unable to back down Horford once again and ends up travelling. Turnover.

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http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/gru5zfymbd80ycw7a5o.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/z474ag3k5su89tuvrzt.png

A nice little high post play: the Pacers create a lot of good movement, with Dunleavy executing a deep-cut, Ford and McRoberts screening for a Granger's shallow-cut and McRoberts then splits the screen and cuts hard towards the basket.

This is where McRoberts lack of a jump-shot hurts, Smith never left the low block and is there downlow waiting for him. He's over-aggressive bodying up McRoberts and gets called for a foul (on the floor).

Just check where Smith is defending McRoberts:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6932/mcbobcut.png

Making McRoberts cuts/drives pretty useless is a negative but not a very big deal; allowing Josh Smith to just roam around the basket like that (and not punishing him) will make getting good shots at the basket an uphill battle.

This is everything in the first half, I'll get back to the 2nd half later.

cordobes
11-17-2010, 06:26 PM
Did he not grab any rebounds vs. Horford?

Also how is scoring 3 more points in tune with this comment. "Horford outplayed Hibbert - like he's been doing in the last 2 seasons - and it wasn't particularly close"

Of course he rebounded, check post #30; it was mostly about efficiency + defense.

Peck
11-17-2010, 06:30 PM
Of course he rebounded, check post #30; it was mostly about efficiency + defense.

Ok, fair enough. I just know that I walked away feeling as though Roy did pretty well overal and considering I've seen Al Horford look like Wilt Chamberlain vs. Roy I guess maybe I was to high on his production.

So if we agree that Roy rebounded and played adaquate defense then if Al scored 3 more points in their time together I can live with that. I still don't feel though as Al completely and totally outplayed him.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 06:39 PM
Nice pictures Cordobes, one thing, just by looking at those pictures kind of tells me that Hibbert is not posting up deep enough like Shaq or Howard, why he is posting up so far from the basket?

Part Timer
11-17-2010, 07:03 PM
Ok, fair enough. I just know that I walked away feeling as though Roy did pretty well overal and considering I've seen Al Horford look like Wilt Chamberlain vs. Roy I guess maybe I was to high on his production.

So if we agree that Roy rebounded and played adaquate defense then if Al scored 3 more points in their time together I can live with that. I still don't feel though as Al completely and totally outplayed him.

I think the bolded part of your comment is why you walked away with a positive impression of Hibbert. It's a step in the right direction for him because he had been utterly dominated previously by Horford.

Infinite MAN_force
11-17-2010, 07:31 PM
Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds
Written by Peck

The Bad:

Iím tempted to just right ďeverybody elseĒ but that is not really fair or accurate as both T.J. Ford & James Posey played to the best of their abilities however neither should be required to give you this many minutes in a game so I think for the most part I am going to give them a pass for the night and even say that they tried.* In fact James played great in the first quarter but soon after that Josh Smithís athletic ability just overwhelmed him.

Josh McRoberts is on the verge of taking his starting power forward position and throwing it in the can.* The only thing saving him right now is that Tyler is not really ready to take it at the moment and I think they wanted to wait a few games before they inserted Posey into the slot.* While I want to hate on OíBrien for this, it is hard to argue against it.* While I love Josh and wanted him to start I will not be a hypocrite here and let him get a pass on the very same thing that I used to complain about with Jeff Foster.* Josh has got to get some form of offense.* I donít care if itís a fact up jumper, a post up move, a slash to the basket or a hook shot.* He has become a detriment on the offensive end because teams are now not only sagging off of him they are actually leaving him to double the ball and Josh does not make them pay.* I donít know if he has lost his confidence or what but for Godís sake he only got up 3 shots in 23 minutes of play.* This is not acceptable and will be the reason why I am going to have to suffer watching James Posey play vs. Blake Griffin on Thursday.* His defense was solid and I donít know if itís true or not yet but I read where Smith only scored 2 points when Josh was on him.* While that is great if true it still does not excuse his inept offensive production.



I think you are letting Posey off a little light. Josh Smith was absolutely abusing him at points in the game and I think it was a big factor in the loss. Although in truth I think this is Jim Obrien's fault for not matching up properly.

Despite his offensive woes I think Josh should have played more minutes if only to keep Smith in check. I have been disappointed in Josh because I was hoping with as much shooting work he put in he might be able to become a semi-reliable shooter from 15 feet out. I don't think he needs a ton of offense to be effective but he has to give you SOMETHING on that end. In last nights game however Ill take not letting Smith go off for 25, he was killing us.

Josh seems to have a confidence issue with his shot and I suppose that being passive has always been a knock on him. He compounds it by losing his cool sometimes and making mental errors. He needs to learn to keep his emotions in check. He got frustrated in the third quarter and made some dumb fouls that got him pulled... and every time Posey came in Josh Smith started scoring in bunches.

On another subject, Hibbert has been playing great except in one area... FG%... Except I sometimes feel like he misses shots that he should be able to make. Is there going to be a moment where things just click and he starts hitting those shots? Or is there some sort of fundamental issue there? Is some of it just adjusting to a new body?

Regardless, this crap with sitting him in crunch time and playing more ridiculous small ball lineups has got to stop. Hibbert has become a vocal leader on this team and sitting him at the end of games screws up the whole team chemistry in my opinion. The Jim O'Brien era can't end soon enough.

cordobes
11-18-2010, 11:28 AM
Nice pictures Cordobes, one thing, just by looking at those pictures kind of tells me that Hibbert is not posting up deep enough like Shaq or Howard, why he is posting up so far from the basket?

Hmm...I thought his positioning was mixed. In that play he goes to the middle and scores with the running hook the catch was a couple of steps too far away from the lane, in the play he turns baseline and draws the foul it was pretty good positioning.

Let's see, Shaq was a freak, he'd just catch the ball wherever he wanted because he was so strong, smart and athletic. He was able to dislodge a large majority of his defenders merely moving to the spot. Still is more or less like that. Let's keep him out of the conversation.

Howard... I'm not sure Howard is that better getting position. In fact, I think it's the weakest part of his post game, especially when he faces high-level physical post defender (like Perkins). When people say Howard has no moves... he does have moves, but due to his poor ability getting position, he often has to rely on more complicated, less efficient, moves, has to put the ball on the floor too often to get a shot - those running hooks across the lane from 9ft away. The reason why Howard is not very good getting position is basically the lack of lower body strength - and in my opinion the same happens with Hibbert.

Having big legs and big rear ends really helps. The wide waist. Unclebuck mentioned this in some other thread I think. Guys with the body type of Howard or Hibbert struggle a bit more to establish position.

Howard has an advantage over Hibbert - he's extremely fast changing ends... and the easiest way to establish deep position in the blocks is by outrunning your opponent. And versus lesser defenders he pretty much goes wherever he wants to.

We can quickly look at Howard's catches on the post vs. Atlanta, just to compare, let me upload some snapshots. Ah, Horford didn't defend Howard for much of that game, he played PF, that's a shame. Anyway, some Horford post-up catches when defended by Collins:

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/lwoghmetcn5bfsp5n3.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/kvh0e7tanhdylptsrewt.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/1fs2spqn4etx0bgs73n.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/kjk9ky0cpb9tr05grwh.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/mr9xuweh0hbjqimu14l.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/n8ssv368qensr77jsamk.png

Hibbert defended by J. Collins:

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/uypq51zqd017shxsq36.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/i5dvh8tsyugckignb3at.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/viwkl1xqkkzeyyoqftvr.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/ntexqlgqcggvcverjk8.png

http://www.freeuploadimages.org/images/5o79jaljxbtc02vdo04.png

There isn't a lot of difference in favour of Howard, in fact, Hibbert was getting the ball closer to the basket, he was posting up inside the lane. Even though Howard never had much of a problem getting the ball where he wanted it (especially in that right block to fire his running left hook). Howard is more successful not due to catching deeper but because he's a lot quicker and more fluid on his moves. He makes up for that couple of steps away from the lane with that. He attacks the middle, once his defender overplays there, he's able to quickly spin towards the baseline. Hibbert still doesn't have that kind of fluidity: eg. those plays from the left block that resulted in a turnover and a bailout pass to Ford.

Collins was defending Hibbert on 3/4 denial, not straight up as Horford mostly did. Only defended from behind with the ball at the top. Btw, that 3rd play over there, Hibbert never got the ball and illustrates a problem he displays: sometimes he loses energy posting up on spots where it's difficult for his teammates to get him the ball without risking a turnover + doesn't seal his man well. Needs to do a better job providing a safe passing lane to the feeders. There's more in the 2nd half, I think.

BPump33
11-18-2010, 11:33 AM
I feel like I just attended a class. Thank you, Cordobes.

I will definitely be focusing more on Roy in the post at tonight's game.

PaceBalls
11-18-2010, 11:41 AM
Me too, It's great having such good basketball minds posting here.

vnzla81
11-18-2010, 11:46 AM
Thanks again Cordobes, so what do you think is the problem here? Hibbert not getting in the right position?(too far from the basket) the system? or his teammates not getting him the ball? I still think that he should get closer to the basket before receiving the ball, of course that his teammates need to find him first and a lot of times I don't see them even looking for him.