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vnzla81
11-16-2010, 09:29 PM
No words to describe what I saw today :rolleyes:

MyFavMartin
11-16-2010, 09:32 PM
No answer for Josh Smith.

Ford didn't too bad. I feel Tyler might have been of help against Smith/Horford.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 09:33 PM
It only took 9 games for us to see the infamous line up of TJ, Rush,Danny,Dun and Posey :suicide2:

graphic-er
11-16-2010, 09:34 PM
Hey that guy Horford....somebody might of wanted to get out there and guard him instead of cheating away and doubling the ball handler. Very depressing to see the Pacers completely beaten by one play. They ran that play atleast a dozen times. You'd think JOB would be able to make an adjustment.

Trader Joe
11-16-2010, 09:37 PM
1.) I hate watching Mike Dunleavy play. Hate it. He is everything I loathe in a basketball player now. He is a chucker from deep and constantly lost on defense.

2.) I want my starting point guard back. :(

3.) Granger played ridiculously well tonight, that shouldn't be lost in this loss. He was the best player on the court for a large portion of the game. Played great D and did a great job of going to the hole and taking jumpers. Too bad the rest of the team let him down for the most part.

4.) Stacey Paetz stop interviewing the other team for the love of God.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 09:37 PM
The love affair by Jim had Posey guarding Smith even though he was getting abuse all night long.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 09:37 PM
Granger played great D
Jones played his best game of his career
TJ didnt impress me
AJ played well, and of course got limited time
McBob is slowly becoming exposed
Roy needs to finish much better and he can become a complete player
would have been nice to see Paul George

Dr. Awesome
11-16-2010, 09:37 PM
Hey that guy Horford....somebody might of wanted to get out there and guard him instead of cheating away and doubling the ball handler. Very depressing to see the Pacers completely beaten by one play. They ran that play atleast a dozen times. You'd think JOB would be able to make an adjustment.

I wouldn't have.

birdsandbats
11-16-2010, 09:37 PM
Did this game **** you guys off as much as it pissed me off? At this point in time, I don't have great expectations for the Pacers, but game especially irked me for some reason. Just some thoughts:

I thought Granger played well despite having the lowest +/-. He played good defense on JJ and didn't just settle for threes.

Dunleavy can be every Pacers fans' favorite player when he is hot, but man when that jumper is cold, it just kills us. The #1 thing the Pacers needs is consistency and that is the opposite of what Dun brings.

Josh McRoberts played pretty good defense most of the game, but in the 4th (maybe 3rd quarter), man did his basketball IQ blow. I love McBob but he committed several stupid fouls either going for impossible rebounds or just being in bad position (and he also thinks he never fouls anyone).

This team desperately needs some athletes not just smart basketball players. The second Josh heads to the bench, Josh Smith completely ravages us. Our rotations are slow, which allowed Horford infinite jumpers (his bread and butter). Atlanta has superb athletes (smith, teague, crawford, williams) and it really showed because they always had a mismatch on one of our guys who couldn't keep up. We missed Tyler a lot.

Final random thoughts: Solomon Jones 10 points who woulda guessed. Also that Jamal crawford crossover and dish was sick.

Infinite MAN_force
11-16-2010, 09:38 PM
Jim seemed perfectly content to allow Josh Smith to abuse James Posey all night. Without so much as a whim of making an adjustment.

Josh Mcroberts has hardly been tearing it up lately and did commit a few dumb fouls in the third quarter... but Josh Smith only scored 2 points against him all night. He scored 23 against Posey... and the vast majority were directly coming at Posey who was clearly outmatched. Why did he play 25 minutes vs. 22 for Josh?

Of course Posey hit a couple of threes in the second quarter, so you know how that goes...

For the record, this is not an anti-Posey post, or a Pro-Mcroberts post... this is a pro-common sense post. Is this coach incapable of understanding match ups and adjustments.

That being said, Danny Granger played like a freaking beast tonight.

cdash
11-16-2010, 09:38 PM
The love affair by Jim had Posey guarding Smith even though he was getting abuse all night long.

No matter what happens, win or loss, you will ***** about JOB. You know the funny part? He's been a lot better this season. He hasn't been bad. He really hasn't.

PacerPenguins
11-16-2010, 09:40 PM
lets face it...the pacers are never going to get anything productive with JoB sitting on the bench.. he could be a waterboy or go around selling penuts and beer but he is not fit to be a coach

BringJackBack
11-16-2010, 09:41 PM
I'm sick of losing games when it's not the player's fault. I love James Posey, but wow does our staff seriously expect him to be able to guard Josh Smith? I would have made the adjustments to keep Smith from going off spacing be damned.

There were some good things, some bad things, but it's still sickening. The only people that played relatively well were Hibbert and Granger. Hibbert didn't shoot well, but he rebounded well and still scored a lot. Granger was amazing and I want to see him lash his players for not playing the defense that is required to win games.

I am very very very disappointed in TJ's defense. He went back to being lazy on picks and then he didn't close out on Bibby. I miss Darren Collison, and we better not lose versus the Clippers.

We're 4-5 but we should be significantly better.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 09:41 PM
No matter what happens, win or loss, you will ***** about JOB. You know the funny part? He's been a lot better this season. He hasn't been bad. He really hasn't.

Having Posey on Josh Smith was not that bad? playing TJ,Rush,Dun,Danny and Posey together in the last minutes wasn't that bad? come on man........

TheDon
11-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Roy's shooting percentage is pretty woeful I have no problems with him making passes out of the high post but I don't like him shooting a near 3 point shot. But you know...he's so much better in the high post.:rolleyes:

PacerPenguins
11-16-2010, 09:42 PM
No matter what happens, win or loss, you will ***** about JOB. You know the funny part? He's been a lot better this season. He hasn't been bad. He really hasn't.

what other coach would take hibbert with more than 7 min left in 3 of our 5 loses? what other coach plays solo as a backup center? what other coach thinks that tj should finish the game instead of DC? what other coach doesnt play his number one draft pick for even a second? See the trend?

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 09:45 PM
I'm sick of losing games when it's not the player's fault. I love James Posey, but wow does our staff seriously expect him to be able to guard Josh Smith? I would have made the adjustments to keep Smith from going off spacing be damned.

There were some good things, some bad things, but it's still sickening. The only people that played relatively well were Hibbert and Granger. Hibbert didn't shoot well, but he rebounded well and still scored a lot. Granger was amazing and I want to see him lash his players for not playing the defense that is required to win games.

I am very very very disappointed in TJ's defense. He went back to being lazy on picks and then he didn't close out on Bibby. I miss Darren Collison, and we better not lose versus the Clippers.

We're 4-5 but we should be significantly better.

yeah TJ let me down, Bibby was kiling him all night. Granger looked great, but yeah I dont understand why the coach refuses to make adjustments when the same thing is done over and over

Dr. Awesome
11-16-2010, 09:48 PM
No matter what happens, win or loss, you will ***** about JOB. You know the funny part? He's been a lot better this season. He hasn't been bad. He really hasn't.

He has been better.



He has still been awful.

cdash
11-16-2010, 09:48 PM
Having Posey on Josh Smith was not that bad? playing TJ,Rush,Dun,Danny and Posey together in the last minutes wasn't that bad? come on man........

I'm not talking about this specific instance. On the whole, I think he has been pretty good this year, at least compared to what he has been in the past. Running the offense through Roy, not really playing small that much, besides tonight. Rotations haven't been awful.

And I didn't watch the whole game, but who else could he have put on Smith besides Posey? McRoberts can't play that many minutes and we really don't have anyone else who could guard him. He's just a really tough matchup.

PacerPenguins
11-16-2010, 09:48 PM
area 55 needs to get a chant going about firing JoB.. he is probably the lamest coach i have ever seen

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 09:49 PM
yeah TJ let me down, Bibby was kiling him all night. Granger looked great, but yeah I dont understand why the coach refuses to make adjustments when the same thing is done over and over

Well at least you got to see the real TJ again ;)

PaceBalls
11-16-2010, 09:50 PM
A secret look into Jim's mind: ~~~~

Mike Dunleavy is the G.O.A.T. He can do no wrong.. ever, if he gets blown by on defense by his man, it was by design so that Hibbert could take a charge, dammit!!where is the help defense??

If he misses a shot the next one will surely go in, after all he had that one game vs. the Knicks in 2007 and made 7 3pters in a row the other night!! No one ever does that! I will take him out for 1 minute early in the 4th quarter just so I can finish the game with him.

What I really need to do is put Posey in the game along with Mike... and then I will put in Granger and Rush, so we can have the QUADRUPAL THREE POINT THREAT!!!! YES!!!!

PacerPenguins
11-16-2010, 09:50 PM
And I didn't watch the whole game, but who else could he have put on Smith besides Posey? McRoberts can't play that many minutes and we really don't have anyone else who could guard him. He's just a really tough matchup.

thats where we need tyler

binarysolo
11-16-2010, 09:51 PM
I thought TJ played pretty well

PacerPenguins
11-16-2010, 09:51 PM
A secret look into Jim's mind: ~~~~

Mike Dunleavy is the G.O.A.T. He can do no wrong.. ever, if he gets blown by on defense by his man, it was by design so that Hibbert could take a charge, dammit!!where is the help defense??

If he misses a shot the next one will surely go in, after all he had that one game vs. the Knicks in 2007 and made 7 3pters in a row the other night!! No one ever does that! I will take him out for 1 minute early in the 4th quarter just so I can finish the game with him.

What I really need to do is put Posey in the game along with Mike... and then I will put in Granger and Rush, so we can have the QUADRUPAL THREE POINT THREAT!!!! YES!!!!

WTF?:confused:

cdash
11-16-2010, 09:51 PM
what other coach would take hibbert with more than 7 min left in 3 of our 5 loses? what other coach plays solo as a backup center? what other coach thinks that tj should finish the game instead of DC? what other coach doesnt play his number one draft pick for even a second? See the trend?

What are his options for backup centers? Honestly. Foster is hurt. No one else on this roster besides our starting PF who isn't used to big minutes can play the backup center position. You are killing him for playing the only real card he has. I guarantee you he isn't wild about giving Solo as many minutes he's gotten, but he doesn't have a choice. The TJ **** bothers me. The PG thing is understandable.

AesopRockOn
11-16-2010, 09:51 PM
Having Posey on Josh Smith was not that bad? playing TJ,Rush,Dun,Danny and Posey together in the last minutes wasn't that bad? come on man........

C'mon. That was for the last 2 or 3 possessions of the game. The lineup had nothing to do with us losing. As far as I'm concerned the game was over long before then.

Please don't cite something that demonstrates <1% of the reason the Pacers lost. Complain about other things: Roy's terrible shooting, Josh's poor and careless play of late, Dunleavy's everything, Rush's lack of a heartbeat, everyone's lack of recognition that JSmith is LEFT HANDED (Yes, mostly Posey.), and OB's insistence on playing Dunleavy so many minutes that could have given George some burn and Danny a chance to play D on Smith (instead of having to shut down JJ).

Think of the folks who didn't have a chance to watch the game and want to know what happened.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 09:52 PM
Josh is going to be a tough cover, but honestly Granger should have been playing him. Posey is not physically capable of bothering Josh Smith. While I'm not into matching up with teams, if I don't do that...I better be throwing a mismatch out on the floor myself. The Pacers don't create a mismatch by putting Posey out there. They create a great opportunity for Josh Smith.

This is not tough to see.

PaceBalls
11-16-2010, 09:52 PM
what other coach would take hibbert with more than 7 min left in 3 of our 5 loses? what other coach plays solo as a backup center? what other coach thinks that tj should finish the game instead of DC? what other coach doesnt play his number one draft pick for even a second? See the trend?

Right, besides my Mike Dunleavy rant, all these too. Though I do like TJ.

cdash
11-16-2010, 09:52 PM
thats where we need tyler

Yeah, but he was hurt. I'm not sure he would be very good at guarding Smith. He's just a really bad matchup for us.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 09:53 PM
I'm not talking about this specific instance. On the whole, I think he has been pretty good this year, at least compared to what he has been in the past. Running the offense through Roy, not really playing small that much, besides tonight. Rotations haven't been awful.

And I didn't watch the whole game, but who else could he have put on Smith besides Posey? McRoberts can't play that many minutes and we really don't have anyone else who could guard him. He's just a really tough matchup.

Mcbob was doing a decent job on smith, but Posey hit two three pointers in the first half reason why I think he stay on the floor(I don't see any other reason)

TheDon
11-16-2010, 09:55 PM
I blame stankolover

cdash
11-16-2010, 09:57 PM
Mcbob was doing a decent job on smith, but Posey hit two three pointers in the first half reason why I think he stay on the floor(I don't see any other reason)

McBob isn't used to that many minutes. You can't keep him out there the 38 or whatever minutes that Smith plays.

AesopRockOn
11-16-2010, 09:58 PM
Josh is going to be a tough cover, but honestly Granger should have been playing him. Posey is not physically capable of bothering Josh Smith. While I'm not into matching up with teams, if I don't do that...I better be throwing a mismatch out on the floor myself. The Pacers don't create a mismatch by putting Posey out there. They create a great opportunity for Josh Smith.

This is not tough to see.

Did you see that game though? Danny was playing terrific man-to-man D on Johnson. Posey indeed was manhandled by Smith but the options were very sparse. The only fix I see is adding some quickness on the perimeter with George. Why he can't get at least a few minutes a game is startling to me.

Infinite MAN_force
11-16-2010, 09:59 PM
I'm not talking about this specific instance. On the whole, I think he has been pretty good this year, at least compared to what he has been in the past. Running the offense through Roy, not really playing small that much, besides tonight. Rotations haven't been awful.

And I didn't watch the whole game, but who else could he have put on Smith besides Posey? McRoberts can't play that many minutes and we really don't have anyone else who could guard him. He's just a really tough matchup.

Smith really didn't do a thing with Mcbob on the floor. Josh may be non-existent offensively, but he was keeping Smith in check and was solid on the boards. He only played 22 minutes.

It was frustrating watching Smith go at Posey possession after possession and see the coach do nothing.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:00 PM
Jim seemed perfectly content to allow Josh Smith to abuse James Posey all night. Without so much as a whim of making an adjustment.




That is simply not true. The Pacers started double teaming Josh Smith when Posey was guarding him. That is an adjustment

Kuq_e_Zi91
11-16-2010, 10:02 PM
My only real complaint with O'Brien is his reliance on Dunleavy. He contributes very little on offense, and is a HUGE liability on defense.

I would have played it like this:

Granger on Josh Smith and back off of him.
Rush on Joe Johnson
George on Marvin Williams

I definitely would have used Dahntay to spell minutes at the wing for some defense. I'd give Dunleavy a MAX of 10-15 minutes. More than that and he hurts your team.

We complain about their athleticism, yet we have these athletic guys rotting on the bench while Dunleavy throws up bricks and gets blown by on defense.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:03 PM
I'm sick of losing games when it's not the player's fault. I love James Posey, but wow does our staff seriously expect him to be able to guard Josh Smith? I would have made the adjustments to keep Smith from going off spacing be damned.



Who else (Besides Josh)do we have that could have guarded Smith?

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 10:03 PM
McBob isn't used to that many minutes. You can't keep him out there the 38 or whatever minutes that Smith plays.

Smith played for 36min I think you could have Josh and Danny on him. By the way Danny's defense was really good today.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:06 PM
Josh is going to be a tough cover, but honestly Granger should have been playing him. Posey is not physically capable of bothering Josh Smith. While I'm not into matching up with teams, if I don't do that...I better be throwing a mismatch out on the floor myself. The Pacers don't create a mismatch by putting Posey out there. They create a great opportunity for Josh Smith.

This is not tough to see.



OK, if you switch Granger to Josh then JJ goes off

PaceBalls
11-16-2010, 10:06 PM
Smith played for 36min I think you could have Josh and Danny on him. By the way Danny's defense was really good today.

I was impressed by Danny's D too. There were times in the 2nd quarter where we looked like a defensive juggernaut. I am also enjoying TJ's efforts, but when you have such a weak link like Dunleavy playing minutes like he is the MVP of the league it just sucks all the energy out of the team.

AesopRockOn
11-16-2010, 10:07 PM
My only real complaint with O'Brien is his reliance on Dunleavy. He contributes very little on offense, and is a HUGE liability on defense.

I would have played it like this:

Granger on Josh Smith and back off of him.
Rush on Joe Johnson
George on Marvin Williams

I definitely would have used Dahntay to spell minutes at the wing for some defense. I'd give Dunleavy a MAX of 10-15 minutes. More than that and he hurts your team.

I think you would have to sub Marvin out for Crawford considering how much more the Hawks play him. In that case, I think you're left with Rush on Jamaal, George on JJ, and Danny on Smith. This is only after Smith blows up though. Danny on JJ established the defensive tone for the first half, especially the first quarter, which we would have led by six had TJ not flopped and given Teague a wide open three at the buzzer.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 10:08 PM
OK, if you switch Granger to Josh then JJ goes off

why? you will have Rush on him, Rush defense was impressive tonight.

Sookie
11-16-2010, 10:08 PM
Danny Granger was fantastic.

TJ was bad and good. Zero turnovers in about 40 minutes is extrordinary for TJ. And the hustle was good. His shot was off though, and he stalled the offense about half the time. I can haz Darren nao, kaythx

Price played really well, but looked rusty to me.

Seemed like Roy, Price, and McRoberts are looking over their shoulder at JOB, expecting to be pulled for a mistake (or no reason) I wouldn't have expected that from AJ after dealing with the mind games of last season and not doing that. (I've seen Josh and Roy do it before) But..Price is going back to the bench as soon as Collison is healthy, with Roy and Josh, that's something to look for.

Roy..I agree, needs to increase his shooting percentage. DUNK. Kaythx.

Dun..oi..I want to like him, I really do. Especially after Larp..but sheesh..

Solo played decent tonight, if he played like that every night we wouldn't be in DESPERATE need (we'd still be in need) of a backup center.

WTF was Posey, Granger, Dun, Rush, TJ....really JOB?

D-BONE
11-16-2010, 10:09 PM
Eh. They played pretty hard most of the game, but the offense just blew pretty much from halftime on. TJ wasn't great, but he certainly wasn't terrible. In fact, that would be an adequate description of basically everyone but Granger. Problem is that's entirely too many guys playing fairly hard, but not at all well.

Sookie
11-16-2010, 10:10 PM
McBob isn't used to that many minutes. You can't keep him out there the 38 or whatever minutes that Smith plays.

Josh is 23 years old, he can handle the minutes.

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:10 PM
why? you will have Rush on him, Rush defense was impressive tonight.

Then Jamal Crawford goes off...

Josh Smith is a bad matchup for us. I've said that several times now, but it's true. I really liked Granger's D on Joe Johnson tonight, and I think switching him off of a guy he was locking down would have been a much more egregious error than what actually transpired.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 10:11 PM
Did you see that game though? Danny was playing terrific man-to-man D on Johnson. Posey indeed was manhandled by Smith but the options were very sparse. The only fix I see is adding some quickness on the perimeter with George. Why he can't get at least a few minutes a game is startling to me.

George is an option I had in my post, but the best approach is actually simple.

Bibby, Johnson, Horford and Smith are the three guys we needed to worry about. Here are the guys that should have been assigned those tasks:

Price on Bibby
Rush on Johnson
Granger on Smith
Hibbert on Horford.

Depending on who the Hawks put on the floor, you may or may not be able to play Dun. If you can play him, great. If not, the reason might be because they went big or athletic. If they put Pachulia in there, you put McBob out to match up. If they put Teague out there, you plug in Dahntay Jones.

...and if George is ready, by all means put him out there.

But please don't put Posey on Josh Smith. Sorry for using this term, but that personnel decision is just stupid.

graphic-er
11-16-2010, 10:12 PM
If I'm Danny Granger, I'm cursing out my teammates in the locker room right now. He came out and made a statement this game and said I'm goin to shut down Jo Johnson. And it was all for naught.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 10:13 PM
Then Jamal Crawford goes off...

Josh Smith is a bad matchup for us. I've said that several times now, but it's true. I really liked Granger's D on Joe Johnson tonight, and I think switching him off of a guy he was locking down would have been a much more egregious error than what actually transpired.

I disagree. Rush could handle Johnson fine. Granger should have been on Smith. See above post...

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:13 PM
Josh is 23 years old, he can handle the minutes.

Roy is what, 24? And he still couldn't handle those minutes. I stand by my belief that McRoberts is mainly effective in short spurts. His offense is bad, let's face it. He is a complete non-threat on that end of the court when he is in the game. I am not defending the Posey on Smith thing specifically, but I can understand it with the way our offense was struggling. I can see where the threat of a Posey three pointer was enticing enough to keep him out there.

Psycho T
11-16-2010, 10:14 PM
Smith really didn't do a thing with Mcbob on the floor. Josh may be non-existent offensively, but he was keeping Smith in check and was solid on the boards. He only played 22 minutes.

It was frustrating watching Smith go at Posey possession after possession and see the coach do nothing.

McBobs boards came from a couple blocked shots and some that bounced off a couple teammates then right to him. Not exactly solid imo.

D-BONE
11-16-2010, 10:15 PM
What we need is the following...

-An intimidating, rebounding oriented 4
-An experienced, lock-down perimeter defender
-A consistent, dynamic scorer capable of creating off the bounce
-A quality back-up center

Okay. We should be able to acquire that by next week. I'm just reminding myself why we will continue to struggle along.
Part of me thinks we should be winning some of the Houston, Atlanta, Bucks-type home games. Particularly when teams are down players. But then I start asking myself the above question and think maybe my expectations are too high.

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:15 PM
I disagree. Rush could handle Johnson fine. Granger should have been on Smith. See above post...

I didn't say anything about Rush not being able to handle Johnson. But he was guarding Crawford mainly when he was in the game, and if you switch Rush off of him, then who guards him? Hence, he goes off.

Scot Pollard
11-16-2010, 10:15 PM
argh...why did this team lose

this might have been a good game for me to miss

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:16 PM
why? you will have Rush on him, Rush defense was impressive tonight.

The one time I remember Rush being on JJ he scored rather easily.

Pacers lost because the Hawks are clearly the better team and the Pacers bigs are really subpar as a group.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 10:16 PM
I didn't say anything about Rush not being able to handle Johnson. But he was guarding Crawford mainly when he was in the game, and if you switch Rush off of him, then who guards him? Hence, he goes off.

Dahntay Jones, Rush and Granger are a better combination to defend those players than Rush, Granger and Posey.

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:17 PM
I'm done defending the move. I'm just trying to get people to see the other side of the coin here. I don't condone all of Obie's moves, but I knew going into this game that Smith was going to be a problem for us. We just don't have the horses to match up with him. And I don't think that putting Granger on him would have solved a whole lot. Guarding Joe Johnson and guarding Josh Smith are two very different things.

graphic-er
11-16-2010, 10:18 PM
Roy is what, 24? And he still couldn't handle those minutes. I stand by my belief that McRoberts is mainly effective in short spurts. His offense is bad, let's face it. He is a complete non-threat on that end of the court when he is in the game. I am not defending the Posey on Smith thing specifically, but I can understand it with the way our offense was struggling. I can see where the threat of a Posey three pointer was enticing enough to keep him out there.

Josh may not be an offensive threat, but he is effective at doing all the alittle things that make the offense go. Just look back at the 20/21 quarter. Those guys hit shots, but Josh was out there they whole time setting screens and picks, and making the passes to open shooters.

xBulletproof
11-16-2010, 10:18 PM
I have to be honest here, I've sat behind the Pacers bench twice this year now and McRoberts is the biggest damn cry baby I think I've ever seen. I was in perfect position in the 1st half to see him stripped going up at the rim. He flails and throws a fit at no call. In the 2nd half he ran under Zaza going for a rebound, and threw another fit that Zaza wasn't called for the foul and he was. Then on the way to the bench Dahntay went to give him 5 and cheer him on, and blatantly ignored him while throwing his towel and yelling towards his chair "f-bomb this s-word and f-bomb something else" that I didn't catch, but I saw O'Brien give him a good stare down after the 2nd part that I didn't understand.

I was thoroughly disgusted at his whiney attitude both games, for the entire games.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 10:18 PM
The one time I remember Rush being on JJ he scored rather easily

One time. So is Rush now a poor defender? I think he's better than Danny.

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:19 PM
Dahntay Jones, Rush and Granger are a better combination to defend those players than Rush, Granger and Posey.

If you say so, I'm not gonna argue.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:19 PM
What we need is the following...

-An intimidating, rebounding oriented 4
-An experienced, lock-down perimeter defender
-A consistent, dynamic scorer capable of creating off the bounce
-A quality back-up center

Okay. We should be able to acquire that by next week. I'm just reminding myself why we will continue to struggle along.
Part of me thinks we should be winning some of the Houston, Atlanta, Bucks-type home games. Particularly when teams are down players. But then I start asking myself the above question and think maybe my expectations are too high.

I vote this for thread of the month mainly because you didn't mention the coach

Kuq_e_Zi91
11-16-2010, 10:20 PM
I think you would have to sub Marvin out for Crawford considering how much more the Hawks play him. In that case, I think you're left with Rush on Jamaal, George on JJ, and Danny on Smith. This is only after Smith blows up though. Danny on JJ established the defensive tone for the first half, especially the first quarter, which we would have led by six had TJ not flopped and given Teague a wide open three at the buzzer.

I'm more comfortable with Rush on JJ than the rookie. George can use his length to disrupt Crawford, though an argument can be made that Rush is better at staying in front of him if Jamaal tries to crossover.

Either way, we have the athleticism to match up with the Hawks, but we don't try to use it -- minus the Hibbert v Horford match up, though Roy wasn't too bad tonight.

Trophy
11-16-2010, 10:20 PM
It was a good first half, but the second half just got really sloppy we were getting careless offensively.

I give a lot of credit to Danny and Brandon for their defense and held Joe Johnson to just 11 points.

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:20 PM
Josh may not be an offensive threat, but he is effective at doing all the alittle things that make the offense go. Just look back at the 20/21 quarter. Those guys hit shots, but Josh was out there they whole time setting screens and picks, and making the passes to open shooters.

And Posey can't do those things? And be a three point threat on top of it? Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

D-BONE
11-16-2010, 10:21 PM
Well, I realize it's far from simple and it would not have significantly altered either Smith's performance or the result of the game. But, for the love of God, can we just force the guys to turn to his right and shoot a jump shot.

Yeah, he got a reverse move to his right for a dunk maybe once? But we never forced him to the above. At least not in the second half. Every play I remember, sans the dunk, we allowed him to get to his left.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:21 PM
Josh is 23 years old, he can handle the minutes.

I don't think I could handle seeing Josh play 38 minutes. I still don't think he has a clue what he is doing, his IQ and feel for the game is really poor. Sure he has a nice feel for passing, but not much else

d_c
11-16-2010, 10:21 PM
Roy is what, 24? And he still couldn't handle those minutes.

Never averaged more than 26 mpg in college. Even when he was the team's best or 2nd best player. His conditioning is definitely improved, but it's still an issue for him. Might always be.

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:21 PM
I vote this for thread of the month mainly because you didn't mention the coach

I don't even like Obie, but I feel as if I'm taking up your job in this thread in defending the guy's moves.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 10:22 PM
What we need is the following...

-An intimidating, rebounding oriented 4
-An experienced, lock-down perimeter defender
-A consistent, dynamic scorer capable of creating off the bounce
-A quality back-up center
-A New coach
Okay. We should be able to acquire that by next week. I'm just reminding myself why we will continue to struggle along.
Part of me thinks we should be winning some of the Houston, Atlanta, Bucks-type home games. Particularly when teams are down players. But then I start asking myself the above question and think maybe my expectations are too high.

Fixed

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:23 PM
Never averaged more than 26 mpg in college. Even when he was the team's best or 2nd best player.

Yeah, exactly. That's my point.

pacer4ever
11-16-2010, 10:23 PM
Fixed

and w also have 2 lockdown defenders

D-BONE
11-16-2010, 10:23 PM
I vote this for thread of the month mainly because you didn't mention the coach

Well, I'm no JOB fanboy, but I can recognize there are lots of imperfections about this team besides just coaching.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:24 PM
One time. So is Rush now a poor defender? I think he's better than Danny.

Where did i ever say Rush os a poor defender. But the fact is Danny was doing a great job on the Hawks best player, so you don't change that matchup.

Rush is a good defender, but for whatever reason Danny had JJ locked uyp, so you do not change that

Sookie
11-16-2010, 10:24 PM
I don't think I could handle seeing Josh play 38 minutes. I still don't think he has a clue what he is doing, his IQ and feel for the game is really poor. Sure he has a nice feel for passing, but not much else

He was defending Josh a lot better than Posey was..and that's kind of important.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 10:25 PM
I don't even like Obie, but I feel as if I'm taking up your job in this thread in defending the guy's moves.

I've been relatively pleased with JOb this year. Now I look like Mr. Slam JOb just because I point out what I believe to be a fact.

PaceBalls
11-16-2010, 10:25 PM
What we need is the following...

-An intimidating, rebounding oriented 4
-An experienced, lock-down perimeter defender
-A consistent, dynamic scorer capable of creating off the bounce
-A quality back-up center

Okay. We should be able to acquire that by next week. I'm just reminding myself why we will continue to struggle along.
Part of me thinks we should be winning some of the Houston, Atlanta, Bucks-type home games. Particularly when teams are down players. But then I start asking myself the above question and think maybe my expectations are too high.

Just to be the contrarian..

Ok, maybe Jim would play Dale Davis. I bet he'd rather have Troy Murphy though...

And experienced lock-down perimeter defender... Brandon Rush, yet we see Jim having Dunleavy playing 35+ minutes every game.

An experienced, dynamic scorer capable of creating off the dribble... we have one on the bench named Paul George (minus the experience) who won't get experience. DNP-CDs the last 3 games. Why is that? Because the kid tried to create his own shot...

I agree about the back up center part.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:28 PM
He was defending Josh a lot better than Posey was..and that's kind of important.

The crazy thing though is Josh Smith is the Hawks fourth option in their starting lineup. Smith typically gets a good portion of his points on broken plays and not as a primary option.

Sookie
11-16-2010, 10:31 PM
The crazy thing though is Josh Smith is the Hawks fourth option in their starting lineup. Smith typically gets a good portion of his points on broken plays and not as a primary option.

Well, the Hawks acted like a smart team and paid attention to the miss match.

I mean, really, we could have used Tyler here. But of the two, Josh was the better choice over Posey, but I'm not even that upset over that. I honestly can understand that move, as at that point we were behind and needed points. And Posey adds that.

My biggest issue is that Roy keeps being taken out.

avoidingtheclowns
11-16-2010, 10:32 PM
I don't think I could handle seeing Josh play 38 minutes. I still don't think he has a clue what he is doing, his IQ and feel for the game is really poor. Sure he has a nice feel for passing, but not much else

So we're clear later: do you actually believe this or is PD forcing you to post this?

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:33 PM
So we're clear later: do you actually believe this or is PD forcing you to post this?

What do you mean

avoidingtheclowns
11-16-2010, 10:34 PM
Never averaged more than 26 mpg in college. Even when he was the team's best or 2nd best player. His conditioning is definitely improved, but it's still an issue for him. Might always be.

At this point, is it really conditioning that's the problem? Couldn't it just be that someone built the way Roy is will always struggle to average more than that a game. I think Smits only had a few seasons where he reached 30/min a game and I think it was like his sixth year in the league.

spazzxb
11-16-2010, 10:36 PM
Did this game **** you guys off as much as it pissed me off? At this point in time, I don't have great expectations for the Pacers, but game especially irked me for some reason. Just some thoughts:

I thought Granger played well despite having the lowest +/-. He played good defense on JJ and didn't just settle for threes.

Dunleavy can be every Pacers fans' favorite player when he is hot, but man when that jumper is cold, it just kills us. The #1 thing the Pacers needs is consistency and that is the opposite of what Dun brings.

Josh McRoberts played pretty good defense most of the game, but in the 4th (maybe 3rd quarter), man did his basketball IQ blow. I love McBob but he committed several stupid fouls either going for impossible rebounds or just being in bad position (and he also thinks he never fouls anyone).

This team desperately needs some athletes not just smart basketball players. The second Josh heads to the bench, Josh Smith completely ravages us. Our rotations are slow, which allowed Horford infinite jumpers (his bread and butter). Atlanta has superb athletes (smith, teague, crawford, williams) and it really showed because they always had a mismatch on one of our guys who couldn't keep up. We missed Tyler a lot.

Final random thoughts: Solomon Jones 10 points who woulda guessed. Also that Jamal crawford crossover and dish was sick.

"He fouled Zaza (out whatever it is) hand with his face" then got frustrated had another foul and got taken out. I didn't get to see the whole game but I can say the officiating was awful in the fourth.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 10:37 PM
Where did i ever say Rush os a poor defender. But the fact is Danny was doing a great job on the Hawks best player, so you don't change that matchup.

Rush is a good defender, but for whatever reason Danny had JJ locked uyp, so you do not change that

JJ's performance has dipped this year. Obviously I like Danny, but Danny is rarely the reason anyone is having a bad game offensively. I suppose his defense has improved, but I highly suspect that Rush would have turned in an equivalent assignment on D at least.

I think DJones is a better guy to have on the floor against this type of team (athletic)...while Posey is better against other types of teams. I simply think the wrong personnel decisions were made in this case. At the same time, I think JOb has done much better this year on his subs...and I am not anti-Posey necessarily. Against Josh Smith, of course, I don't think it's a good idea.

...and I think Horford is their best player.

Pacemaker
11-16-2010, 10:38 PM
Looking at the box score, may be AJ should've played a little bit more of TJ's minutes.

avoidingtheclowns
11-16-2010, 10:40 PM
What do you mean

Well it was mostly supposed to be funny. But I was referencing a few weeks ago, when you said you felt pushed into saying Josh didn't have NBA talent or skill.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:40 PM
The Pacers need a lot of work on their pick and rolls - they generally do a poor job. Either the ball handler doesn't allow the big guy the time to set the pick or the spacing is poor. Pacers pick and roll action is esy to defend

Bball
11-16-2010, 10:41 PM
Well, I'm no JOB fanboy, but I can recognize there are lots of imperfections about this team besides just coaching.

The beauty of it is that the coach really knows how to maximize those imperfections...

Sookie
11-16-2010, 10:42 PM
The Pacers need a lot of work on their pick and rolls - they generally do a poor job. Either the ball handler doesn't allow the big guy the time to set the pick or the spacing is poor. Pacers pick and roll action is esy to defend

Problem is, Price and Collison are the only players on the team good at running the PnR....and that includes all the big guys.

I think Josh, Tyler, and Roy can all improve..but that's not an emphasis in the offense and they aren't good at it right now..

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:43 PM
The Pacers need a lot of work on their pick and rolls - they generally do a poor job. Either the ball handler doesn't allow the big guy the time to set the pick or the spacing is poor. Pacers pick and roll action is esy to defend

Yeah I agree. Crazily, against all odds, the best pick and rolls I've seen this season out of us were two AJ Price to Solomon Jones (!!) connections in the first half. I really think Collison and Hibbert need to work on them, because those PnR's make life a lot easier on both of them.

Justin Tyme
11-16-2010, 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=PacerPenguins;1098843]

what other coach plays solo as a backup center? /QUOTE]


Just in case you haven't noticed this season, the Pacers don't have another b/u center.

Unclebuck
11-16-2010, 10:44 PM
JJ's performance has dipped this year. Obviously I like Danny, but Danny is rarely the reason anyone is having a bad game offensively. I suppose his defense has improved, but I highly suspect that Rush would have turned in an equivalent assignment on D at least.

I think DJones is a better guy to have on the floor against this type of team (athletic)...while Posey is better against other types of teams. I simply think the wrong personnel decisions were made in this case. At the same time, I think JOb has done much better this year on his subs...and I am not anti-Posey necessarily. Against Josh Smith, of course, I don't think it's a good idea.

...and I think Horford is their best player.

I would much rather have Horford than any of their other players. But JJ is by far their most explosive offensive player and their most difficult player to guard. The defensive gameplan starts with defending JJ, not with Horford

Sookie
11-16-2010, 10:45 PM
Yeah I agree. Crazily, against all odds, the best pick and rolls I've seen this season out of us were two AJ Price to Solomon Jones (!!) connections in the first half. I really think Collison and Hibbert need to work on them, because those PnR's make life a lot easier on both of them.

Has Soloman played the PnR with Collison?

Maybe when Solo's in there, that's what Collison should do, it might make Solo less useless...

Bball
11-16-2010, 10:46 PM
Just curious here but couldn't Hibbert's minutes be expanded by utilizing shorter stints while also keeping him fresher for later in the game?

Or we could slow down the pace of the game... but Heaven knows we wouldn't want to do that...

DonSwanson
11-16-2010, 10:46 PM
My only real complaint with O'Brien is his reliance on Dunleavy. He contributes very little on offense, and is a HUGE liability on defense.

I would have played it like this:

Granger on Josh Smith and back off of him.
Rush on Joe Johnson
George on Marvin Williams

I definitely would have used Dahntay to spell minutes at the wing for some defense. I'd give Dunleavy a MAX of 10-15 minutes. More than that and he hurts your team.

We complain about their athleticism, yet we have these athletic guys rotting on the bench while Dunleavy throws up bricks and gets blown by on defense.

I don't really have a problem with Dunleavy getting 30+ minutes. It would be one thing if we were one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA, but coming into tonight we were 9th in opponents' points per 100 possessions. This system of team defense helps to somewhat hide a guy like Dunleavy. Someone else posted a plus/minus article recently BEFORE Dunleavy's hot streak the past 3 games, which seemed to suggest that the Pacers were still a better team with Dunleavy on the floor despite his 34% shooting. The offense just seems to flow better when he's out there, and is REALLY good when he's knocking down the outside shot.

Is a guy like Dahntay Jones value-added at this point? Would he make us a better defensive team? Perhaps marginally, but I see it coming at the expense of the offense. My concern is, as an extreme example at the other end of the spectrum--how much would the offense suffer by having a guy like Dahntay play all of Mike's minutes? We can't look at this issue of offense vs defense in isolation. It's one thing if a guy like Jones is sandwiched between two offensive stars like Chauncey Billups and Carmelo Anthony and you can trot him out there for 18 minutes of above-average defense, but on this team I don't think we can afford to surrender any offense from that position.

Even tonight, we were still a respectable -3 with Dunleavy in the game. I know a lot of people would probably disagree, but I think for this team to go anywhere this year we will definitely need to rely on Dunleavy.

pwee31
11-16-2010, 10:47 PM
1.) I hate watching Mike Dunleavy play. Hate it. He is everything I loathe in a basketball player now. He is a chucker from deep and constantly lost on defense.

2.) I want my starting point guard back. :(

3.) Granger played ridiculously well tonight, that shouldn't be lost in this loss. He was the best player on the court for a large portion of the game. Played great D and did a great job of going to the hole and taking jumpers. Too bad the rest of the team let him down for the most part.

4.) Stacey Paetz stop interviewing the other team for the love of God.

She's required to, it's not by choice

Justin Tyme
11-16-2010, 10:47 PM
who else could he have put on Smith besides Posey? McRoberts can't play that many minutes and we really don't have anyone else who could guard him. He's just a really tough matchup.


Yes, but others don't want to admit it. The Pacers need a good quality starting PF and a b/u Center.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 10:49 PM
Has Soloman played the PnR with Collison?

Maybe when Solo's in there, that's what Collison should do, it might make Solo less useless...

That was how Solo got most of his ten points, It was nice to watch

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 10:52 PM
but I think for this team to go anywhere this year we will definitely need to rely on Dunleavy.

This team is doomed if we expect to rely on Dunleavy

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 10:53 PM
I would much rather have Horford than any of their other players. But JJ is by far their most explosive offensive player and their most difficult player to guard. The defensive gameplan starts with defending JJ, not with Horford

Do you think DJones can defend Crawford better than Posey can defend Josh Smith?

This is the choice you are making IMO. ....assuming you think Rush could do about as well as Danny on JJ.

Justin Tyme
11-16-2010, 10:55 PM
Pacers lost because the Hawks are clearly the better team and the Pacers bigs are really subpar as a group.


Especially the latter.

cdash
11-16-2010, 10:56 PM
This team is doomed if we expect to rely on Dunleavy

Man come on. He had a really good post there, pointing out some good stuff, and you focus on that one sentence to repeat yourself for the 5,000th time.

pwee31
11-16-2010, 10:56 PM
Call me a downer, but I fully expected us to lose this game tonight, and therefore, I'm not as upset we loss.

Never happy with a loss, but we always struggle against the Hawks. Only game I remember winning in recent years in the one at home when Horford hurt his ankle.

I thought Danny played well tonight, really defending Joe Johnson well, and had pretty good shot selection. Rush defended well, wish his offense was rolling.

Don't understand the Foster situation? Hasn't seen a minute, even when "healthy" perhaps he's done?

Bibby and Josh Smith were really the difference makers. Horford kept us at bay late, but Bibby from the outside and Josh Smith on the inside.. and defensive end caused real problems tonight.

I think Hansbrough would've made it harder for him in the post and Collison would have made Bibby work more on the other end of floor with his offense.

Oh well, bring on the Clippers. I really hope we play well against the Clippers b/c it's the only game that night other than the TNT doubleheader , so it should get a little attention with the TNT gang with Blake Griffin and all.

Justin Tyme
11-16-2010, 10:57 PM
I'm done defending the move. I'm just trying to get people to see the other side of the coin here. I don't condone all of Obie's moves, but I knew going into this game that Smith was going to be a problem for us. We just don't have the horses to match up with him. And I don't think that putting Granger on him would have solved a whole lot. Guarding Joe Johnson and guarding Josh Smith are two very different things.


I thought this is one of the better games I've seen Smith play offensively.

spazzxb
11-16-2010, 10:58 PM
what other coach would take hibbert with more than 7 min left in 3 of our 5 loses? what other coach plays solo as a backup center? what other coach thinks that tj should finish the game instead of DC? what other coach doesnt play his number one draft pick for even a second? See the trend?


Please contain (or at least make it a point to separate ) your complaints to what actually happened in this particular game since its the post game thread. One would think Collison was playing tonight. I didn't see the whole game but others like me would like to find out what happened in this game their are tons off coach hate threads to get your general hate on. Oh and and EVERY other coach seeing TJ outplaying Collision on a given night would do the same thing.

The truth is the Hawks are a better team than us right now. They better be because there handcuffed to it. The Pacers aren't a finished product. We were still competitive tonight. Wether they were bad calls or not a lot of fouls in the second half took us out of/ kept us out of this game.

Justin Tyme
11-16-2010, 11:00 PM
I have to be honest here, I've sat behind the Pacers bench twice this year now and McRoberts is the biggest damn cry baby I think I've ever seen. I was in perfect position in the 1st half to see him stripped going up at the rim. He flails and throws a fit at no call. In the 2nd half he ran under Zaza going for a rebound, and threw another fit that Zaza wasn't called for the foul and he was. Then on the way to the bench Dahntay went to give him 5 and cheer him on, and blatantly ignored him while throwing his towel and yelling towards his chair "f-bomb this s-word and f-bomb something else" that I didn't catch, but I saw O'Brien give him a good stare down after the 2nd part that I didn't understand.

I was thoroughly disgusted at his whiney attitude both games, for the entire games.



I mentioned his whining a few days ago. The Pachulia whining was ridiculous.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:01 PM
Man come on. He had a really good post there, pointing out some good stuff, and you focus on that one sentence to repeat yourself for the 5,000th time.

He is telling us that Dunleavy is an important part for this team to be successful, a funnier joke than that impossible :laugh:

30+ minutes for him? :laugh:

DonSwanson
11-16-2010, 11:04 PM
He is telling us that Dunleavy is an important part for this team to be successful, a funnier joke than that impossible :laugh:

30+ minutes for him? :laugh:

Yes, as a #3 option absolutely he's important.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 11:05 PM
I thought this is one of the better games I've seen Smith play offensively.

Highest point total of the young season for him. The Hawks play a pretty smart game and take what the defense gives. I think you can tell where our defense was giving...;)

cdash
11-16-2010, 11:06 PM
He is telling us that Dunleavy is an important part for this team to be successful, a funnier joke than that impossible :laugh:

30+ minutes for him? :laugh:

...I don't know what you're laughing at, it seems like a pretty true statement to me.

Justin Tyme
11-16-2010, 11:06 PM
Either the ball handler doesn't allow the big guy the time to set the pick or the spacing is poor.


This happened twice that I can remember with Price and Solo where Solo got called for a violation.

spazzxb
11-16-2010, 11:07 PM
Just to be the contrarian..

Ok, maybe Jim would play Dale Davis. I bet he'd rather have Troy Murphy though...

And experienced lock-down perimeter defender... Brandon Rush, yet we see Jim having Dunleavy playing 35+ minutes every game.

An experienced, dynamic scorer capable of creating off the dribble... we have one on the bench named Paul George (minus the experience) who won't get experience. DNP-CDs the last 3 games. Why is that? Because the kid tried to create his own shot...

I agree about the back up center part.


You know as well as anyone that Brandon rush took George's Minutes. I am hoping it doesn't take to long for Rush to earn the stating job, but he messed up with the suspension so it shouldn't be to easy for him either. Can we please just forget Murphy exists.

Scot Pollard
11-16-2010, 11:07 PM
this game sucked because we didnt have our pg and we had to use freakin ford who got the majority of the minutes meanwhile aj scored way more points in limited time

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:07 PM
I mentioned his whining a few days ago. The Pachulia whining was ridiculous.

Yeah I noticed the same thing, is not looking good for our possible future PF, it reminds me of this:

By the way Hansbrough was killing him on this video :laugh:

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Kuq_e_Zi91
11-16-2010, 11:09 PM
I don't really have a problem with Dunleavy getting 30+ minutes. It would be one thing if we were one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA, but coming into tonight we were 9th in opponents' points per 100 possessions. This system of team defense helps to somewhat hide a guy like Dunleavy. Someone else posted a plus/minus article recently BEFORE Dunleavy's hot streak the past 3 games, which seemed to suggest that the Pacers were still a better team with Dunleavy on the floor despite his 34% shooting. The offense just seems to flow better when he's out there, and is REALLY good when he's knocking down the outside shot.

Is a guy like Dahntay Jones value-added at this point? Would he make us a better defensive team? Perhaps marginally, but I see it coming at the expense of the offense. My concern is, as an extreme example at the other end of the spectrum--how much would the offense suffer by having a guy like Dahntay play all of Mike's minutes? We can't look at this issue of offense vs defense in isolation. It's one thing if a guy like Jones is sandwiched between two offensive stars like Chauncey Billups and Carmelo Anthony and you can trot him out there for 18 minutes of above-average defense, but on this team I don't think we can afford to surrender any offense from that position.

Even tonight, we were still a respectable -3 with Dunleavy in the game. I know a lot of people would probably disagree, but I think for this team to go anywhere this year we will definitely need to rely on Dunleavy.

All great points, that I think can be supported by looking at the impact Dahntay had on our offense last season when it took a step back. He certainly has his moments of tunnel vision where he tries to do too much, which like you said, might be because we don't have a Billups or Melo to keep him in check. No argument from me there.

When I mentioned Dahntay, I didn't mean to imply that I wanted to completely swap Dun's minutes with his. Both players if relied on too much can be detrimental. The key is finding a middle ground for both, determined by match ups and hot/cold streaks. For example, tonight's match up with the athletic Hawks isn't a good one for Dun, especially when he isn't hitting on offense.

Also, we shouldn't completely forget about Paul George and playing Dunleavy 30+ minutes would be doing just that. While he might not be ready right now, there's no question he provides a unique skill set that no other player on our roster brings. It would be in our best interest, both now and in the future, to give him some minutes this season and not 30+ to a player in Dunleavy who likely won't be back next season.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:12 PM
Yes, as a #3 option absolutely he's important.




...I don't know what you're laughing at, it seems like a pretty true statement to me.

Roy Hibbert is more important as our third option than Dunleavy, Danny 1st option Collison 2nd option Roy 3rd everybody else 4th option.

Again if Dunleavy is our 3rd option in anything we are doomed.

Scot Pollard
11-16-2010, 11:12 PM
guys i've really had enough with jim obrien its almost a guarantee that he wont be back

i want mike brown coaching the pacers

not only is he a good coach that is fair but hes not a stranger to the pacers organization and everyone would welcome his return im sure and come to games

cdash
11-16-2010, 11:13 PM
Rush seems to be back up to his old tricks to me. I have wavered on this a few times, but I like Dunleavy out there with the starters for now. I would like to see Paul George pick up a few minutes in the next game.

We really need to beat the Clippers the next game. They are horrible and maybe a warning to all those people that basically don't want us to play any veterans, besides Granger. Last game they trotted out a Jordan-Griffin-Aminu-Gordon-Bledsoe lineup and got waxed.

Sookie
11-16-2010, 11:13 PM
This happened twice that I can remember with Price and Solo where Solo got called for a violation.

yea..he did it with Ford too..I just think Solo's a little mobile on the screens. Which would be the downside of him trying to do that with Collison..

cdash
11-16-2010, 11:15 PM
Again if Dunleavy is our 3rd option in anything we are doomed.

Then maybe you should stop *****ing about every little thing JOB does if this team is doomed by its personnel.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:19 PM
Then maybe you should stop *****ing about every little thing JOB does if this team is doomed by its personnel.

He is the one playing Dunleavy 30+ minutes, there are better options than him.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:21 PM
Rush seems to be back up to his old tricks to me. I have wavered on this a few times, but I like Dunleavy out there with the starters for now. I would like to see Paul George pick up a few minutes in the next game.

We really need to beat the Clippers the next game. They are horrible and maybe a warning to all those people that basically don't want us to play any veterans, besides Granger. Last game they trotted out a Jordan-Griffin-Aminu-Gordon-Bledsoe lineup and got waxed.

I would love for the Pacers to be the Clippers, they are losing now but they will be better than the Pacers in two years, not question about that.

edit: at the end of the season the Pacers are going to have not more than 10 more wins than them just like the last year.

Justin Tyme
11-16-2010, 11:21 PM
For all you Mr. Inconsistancy fans, when is his consistancy going to start showing up? Will his consistancy show up anytime b4 his annual last 20 games of the season?

cdash
11-16-2010, 11:23 PM
He is the one playing Dunleavy 30+ minutes, there are better options than him.

Like Rush? That's very debateable. George is not a better option than either of them right now. He's just too raw on both ends of the court right now to be considered better than the veterans.

cdash
11-16-2010, 11:26 PM
I would love for the Pacers to be the Clippers, they are losing now but they will be better than the Pacers in two years, not question about that.

edit: at the end of the season the Pacers are going to have not more than 10 more wins than them just like the last year.

Yeah, you are gambling on the most inept franchise in sports history to be better than us in two years? I am very skeptical. Their talent is already way ahead of ours. They always seem to find ways to **** things up.

And playing all these young guys now isn't effecting that majorly either way. Cordobes had a really good post on this sometime in the past week about throwing minutes at players. He put it better than I can.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:27 PM
For all you Mr. Inconsistancy fans, when is his consistancy going to start showing up? Will his consistancy show up anytime b4 his annual last 20 games of the season?

He was nice on defense tonight,him and Danny were the main reason the Pacers were close in the 1st half, he was trying to be agressive in the offensive end but his shot didn't go down.

SMosley21
11-16-2010, 11:32 PM
1.) I hate watching Mike Dunleavy play. Hate it. He is everything I loathe in a basketball player now. He is a chucker from deep and constantly lost on defense.

2.) I want my starting point guard back. :(

3.) Granger played ridiculously well tonight, that shouldn't be lost in this loss. He was the best player on the court for a large portion of the game. Played great D and did a great job of going to the hole and taking jumpers. Too bad the rest of the team let him down for the most part.

4.) Stacey Paetz stop interviewing the other team for the love of God.

1. Can't argue much with that.

2. Me too.

3. Yes.

4. She interviews who her producers tell her to. Typically it's a player from the winning team. It's not her fault we lose more games than we win.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:33 PM
Yeah, you are gambling on the most inept franchise in sports history to be better than us in two years? I am very skeptical. Their talent is already way ahead of ours. They always seem to find ways to **** things up.

And playing all these young guys now isn't effecting that majorly either way. Cordobes had a really good post on this sometime in the past week about throwing minutes at players. He put it better than I can.

You don't think that playing the young guys helps the team in different ways?
You should go and aks Cordobes how the Celtics got KG? If they didn't play big Al, Minnesota would have never find out how good he was and never made the trade.

I would say it again I would love for the pacers to have the roster the Clippers have, I know is the Clippers but I don't care that team is better than us right now.

SMosley21
11-16-2010, 11:35 PM
I would say it again I would love for the pacers to have the roster the Clippers have, I know is the Clippers but I don't care that team is better than us right now.


Actually they're not.

Pacers W-L
4-5

Clippers W-L
1-10

Kuq_e_Zi91
11-16-2010, 11:37 PM
MikeWellsNBA

O'Brien on what changed for Roy in the 2nd half, "He certainly went off in the 1st half, but it was against their 2nd string centers."
about 1 hour ago via web
http://twitter.com/MikeWellsNBA/status/4735730202976256

Wow.

immortality
11-16-2010, 11:37 PM
Was reading a recap of the game from a Hawks blog, and he has a nice tidbit about McRoberts guarding Smith


The presence of Josh McRoberts on the court allowed Josh Smith the freedom to roam for several of those seven blocks. James Posey got free a couple of times when Smith helped defensively bit could not score often enough to off-set Smith's offensive dominance of him in the post.

Rest of the article here:
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/

So as others were saying Josh Smith is just really a bad matchup for us.

cdash
11-16-2010, 11:39 PM
You don't think that playing the young guys helps the team in different ways?
You should go and aks Cordobes how the Celtics got KG? If they didn't play big Al, Minnesota would have never find out how good he was and never made the trade.

I would say it again I would love for the pacers to have the roster the Clippers have, I know is the Clippers but I don't care that team is better than us right now.

No they aren't better than us right now. They are 1-10. They are a bad team. They have great talent and a bright future, but right now, they are awful.

I know there are benefits to playing the young guys, I'm not saying I don't want to see them out there, but if you play a crapload of young guys at the same time, they lose. They develop losing habits that follow them around. It's part of the reason Bird goes for guys that are winners. Rush, Hansbrough, Hibbert...winners in college.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:39 PM
Actually they're not.

Pacers W-L
4-5

Clippers W-L
1-10

Two of their key players are out(Baron and Kaman)

Look at their team againts the Pacers:

Bledsoe, EJ,Aminu,Griffing, Jordan the oldest player in this line up is 22 years old.

SMosley21
11-16-2010, 11:42 PM
Two of their key players are out(Baron and Kaman)

Look at their team againts the Pacers:

Bledsoe, EJ,Aminu,Griffing, Jordan the oldest player in this line up is 22 years old.

I repeat

Pacers 4-5
Clippers 1-10

Pacers win more now = Pacers are better now

fyi, Kaman has played 8 of their 11 games

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:44 PM
No they aren't better than us right now. They are 1-10. They are a bad team. They have great talent and a bright future, but right now, they are awful.

I know there are benefits to playing the young guys, I'm not saying I don't want to see them out there, but if you play a crapload of young guys at the same time, they lose. They develop losing habits that follow them around. It's part of the reason Bird goes for guys that are winners. Rush, Hansbrough, Hibbert...winners in college.

Not trying to extend the argument here, but I just don't see any reasoning to this, either way you lose, what are you going to win? five, ten more games? is winning five or ten more games making you a winning team? I don't think so.

PaceBalls
11-16-2010, 11:50 PM
You know as well as anyone that Brandon rush took George's Minutes. I am hoping it doesn't take to long for Rush to earn the stating job, but he messed up with the suspension so it shouldn't be to easy for him either. Can we please just forget Murphy exists.

Yeah but Brandon should've taken Dunleavy's minutes and George should've taken the rest. I want to see Dunleavy get the DNP-CDs. He won't be here next year, he has no future with the team (god willing), it is doing our team no good at all to play him since he actually has a negative effect on the game, yet our coach plays him like he is MJ 2.0. He is an absolute sieve on defense one on one. Just watching everyone blow by him was enough to make me start swearing at the TV again tonight, not to mention the rebounds he gave up because of not boxing out.

I hear people talking about how our defensive system is designed to cover for Mike's deficiencies, just like I heard about Troy last year. But here is a novel idea. How about we play guys who are good defenders so we don't have to cover for their lack of ability.

About Troy. I am trying to forget, but last season is hard to shake. Jim being here is not helping me. I do take pleasure watching him play for NJ... although their coach seems to be much smarter than ours and he is not playing very much at all.

I know you think I am a hater, but really I think Jim and Mike are cool dudes, I just really don't like them in regards to basketball. On occasion I can appreciate what they do basketball wise, those occasions are all too rare. But as far as human beings go, I think they are top notch.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 11:53 PM
I repeat

Pacers 4-5
Clippers 1-10

Pacers win more now = Pacers are better now

fyi, Kaman has played 8 of their 11 games

Look at their schedule and the reason for that record and many of those games were close:

Portland,GS,Dallas,Spurs,Thunder(win),Nuggets,Utah ,NO,Spurs,Detroit and Nets.

Tell me how many games you think the Pacers could have won? 2? 3? Maybe 4 max?

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 12:00 AM
Look at their schedule and the reason for that record and many of those games were close:

Portland,GS,Dallas,Spurs,Thunder(win),Nuggets,Utah ,NO,Spurs,Detroit and Nets.

Ive watch every clipper game.If we dont play well we will get beat. EJ can take over the game and griffen is gonnaa have a field day on the offensive boards. They have gotten better each game. FYI Kaman and Baron suck they need to trade them. The oldest person in there starting lineup is 22 jordan thier center really atheltic. They make a lot of mistakes they ar young. Should be intersting who Aminu guards probly Mike but that will be a good matchup. But the pg spot will be fun to watch eric Bledsoe is a stud. They have played everygame close except GS.

pig norton
11-17-2010, 12:08 AM
The thing that really struck me about this game was the horrible coaching. I don't know why no one's mentioned this before, but JOB is not a very good coach. I mean, for several years now he's coached us right into matching up badly with the Hawks! Not one of our players has been coached into being able to effectively defend Josh Smith! Not one! And the only guy who may have been able to slow him down? You guessed it. JOB coached him right into an injury. Jeez. How stupid is that?

And, of course, Mike Dunleavy is literally the worst basketball player I have ever seen. Were it not for his abjectly terrible play, we may have been able to overcome the whole coaching thing.

But seriously, the Pacers are probably about a .500 team. The Hawks are significantly better than that. The Pacers had a couple of key injuries, the Hawks did not. And on top of that, the Hawks are a particularly bad matchup for us. I actually consider this a somewhat encouraging game.

IUfan4life
11-17-2010, 12:25 AM
I swear this is the biggest group of babies ever.
The Hawks had a better player at every position tonight. Can we not applaud the Pacers for playing very hard and competing. The Pacers were never winning this game in a million years. Between Danny's and Rush's D, the hustle, Danny's shot selection, Solo having a good game, and Roy finally not taking 15 seconds to decide what to do. I think there were a lot of positives tonight.
You guys are the biggest haters I have ever seen.

IUfan4life
11-17-2010, 12:26 AM
Ive watch every clipper game.If we dont play well we will get beat. EJ can take over the game and griffen is gonnaa have a field day on the offensive boards. They have gotten better each game. FYI Kaman and Baron suck they need to trade them. The oldest person in there starting lineup is 22 jordan thier center really atheltic. They make a lot of mistakes they ar young. Should be intersting who Aminu guards probly Mike but that will be a good matchup. But the pg spot will be fun to watch eric Bledsoe is a stud. They have played everygame close except GS.

Who makes more mistakes; you when typing, or the Clippers? :)

IndyPacer
11-17-2010, 12:30 AM
I agree with the camp that wants Rush guarding Johnson and Granger guarding Smith, although that wouldn't have been enough for the win.

CableKC
11-17-2010, 12:32 AM
Let's be real about this.......the Hawks has a incredibly athletic lineup that can score from outside and in.....we do not have a lineup that JO'B would be comfortable using that would have made much of a difference. I'd even go as far as to say that even with the most athletic lineup that we can put out there that is athletic and can be effective on both ends of the floor.....there's no way that we can run it for extended periods of time.

Is it possible that we simply got beaten by a better team and that there wasn't much that JO'B could have done given the lineup ( due to injuries ) and roster that we have?

IUfan4life
11-17-2010, 12:32 AM
I agree with the camp that wants Rush guarding Johnson and Granger guarding Smith, although that wouldn't have been enough for the win.

I will play Devil's advocate here because I have not seen this point brought up yet. The one possession I recall Danny guarding J. Smith, Josh just posted up and got an easy lay up on Danny. I am not sure Danny would fend much better.

IUfan4life
11-17-2010, 12:34 AM
Another point I would like to make is this; a lot of people post on here complaining about everything as if this was a perfect world, and the Pacers had the Dream Team. We obviously do not.

Cactus Jax
11-17-2010, 12:36 AM
I swear this is the biggest group of babies ever.
The Hawks had a better player at every position tonight. Can we not applaud the Pacers for playing very hard and competing. The Pacers were never winning this game in a million years. Between Danny's and Rush's D, the hustle, Danny's shot selection, Solo having a good game, and Roy finally not taking 15 seconds to decide what to do. I think there were a lot of positives tonight.
You guys are the biggest haters I have ever seen.

I agree except I thought Danny was the best player on the floor tonight for either team.

McRoberts is being exposed as a poor option at PF on both ends of the floor, if he isnt dunking I cringe every time he has the ball. His defense is ok, but not good enough against an athletic team like the Hawks where he either has to guard Josh Smith or Horford.

IUfan4life
11-17-2010, 12:39 AM
I agree except I thought Danny was the best player on the floor tonight for either team.

McRoberts is being exposed as a poor option at PF on both ends of the floor, if he isnt dunking I cringe every time he has the ball. His defense is ok, but not good enough against an athletic team like the Hawks where he either has to guard Josh Smith or Horford.

I agree with Danny. What I meant was that in general the Hawks are better at every position. I just worded it poorly, and a lot is lost in text on the internet

Brad8888
11-17-2010, 01:22 AM
Let's be real about this.......the Hawks has a incredibly athletic lineup that can score from outside and in.....we do not have a lineup that JO'B would be comfortable using that would have made much of a difference. I'd even go as far as to say that even with the most athletic lineup that we can put out there that is athletic and can be effective on both ends of the floor.....there's no way that we can run it for extended periods of time.

Is it possible that we simply got beaten by a better team and that there wasn't much that JO'B could have done given the lineup ( due to injuries ) and roster that we have?

So, was the game slowed down to minimize the impact of the superior athleticism of the Hawks, which is one thing that O'Brien could have done?

I didn't watch, but I would doubt that he slowed it much, if at all, if history is any guide. Also, the Hawks apparently moved better offensively than the Pacers if the box score is any indication, and that impact would have been lessened at a slower pace. Admittedly, though, that probably would have resulted in our bigs being fouled out very quickly if the Hawks had executed a half court offense designed to create the inevitable mismatches in the half court.

Two good things apparently were the facts that we did get to the line and win the FT battle for once, which is encouraging, and only shot 18 3's, going 4-18 there.

Also, we won the battle of the boards handily, 42 - 30, with 12 offensive boards with the mighty Roy leading the way!

spazzxb
11-17-2010, 01:34 AM
I would love for the Pacers to be the Clippers, they are losing now but they will be better than the Pacers in two years, not question about that.

edit: at the end of the season the Pacers are going to have not more than 10 more wins than them just like the last year.


Winning the lottery is a good thing most the time. I don't agree about them being better than us, not that I can predict.

Ransom
11-17-2010, 01:40 AM
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imawhat
11-17-2010, 01:43 AM
Well, that was sickening. Never thought I'd say the Hawks out-executed the Pacers, but they've done that for the past two seasons.

I think that's smoke coming out of my ears.

Will Galen
11-17-2010, 02:36 AM
Well, I'm no JOB fanboy, but I can recognize there are lots of imperfections about this team besides just coaching.

Getting better players always seems to improve the coaching too . . . I wonder why?

skip2mylou
11-17-2010, 02:49 AM
Josh Smith would be awesome next to Roy.

CableKC
11-17-2010, 03:14 AM
So, was the game slowed down to minimize the impact of the superior athleticism of the Hawks, which is one thing that O'Brien could have done?

I didn't watch, but I would doubt that he slowed it much, if at all, if history is any guide. Also, the Hawks apparently moved better offensively than the Pacers if the box score is any indication, and that impact would have been lessened at a slower pace. Admittedly, though, that probably would have resulted in our bigs being fouled out very quickly if the Hawks had executed a half court offense designed to create the inevitable mismatches in the half court.

Two good things apparently were the facts that we did get to the line and win the FT battle for once, which is encouraging, and only shot 18 3's, going 4-18 there.

Also, we won the battle of the boards handily, 42 - 30, with 12 offensive boards with the mighty Roy leading the way!
I'm sure that JO'B could have made changes....or at least we hope that he would.....but when our Frontcourt options is made up of Granger/Hibbert/McBob/Posey/Solo.....I don't think that there was too much JO'B could have done that would have made that much of a difference.

I'm just saying that it's obvious that we aren't that good of a Team and that we got beaten by a much better and athletic Team that is much better at doing what they do then the Pacers are at what they do.

ilive4sports
11-17-2010, 03:25 AM
I'm just as upset with anyone about this loss considering the start of the game. I wasn't able to see it cause I was working, but i followed the score closely on my phone.

But let's remember these aren't the hawks of a couple of years ago. Atlanta is a legit playoff team. They are better than us when we are completely healthy. Yet we aren't right now and we had a chance at winning this thing. We played without our starting PG and without our (best? quite possibly) PF.

We didnt play as well as we should have, but lets not be shocked with the result. There is a lot of room for improvement on this team. Roy needs to be consistent with his offensive game. Yeah he put up 18 and 15, but shot 6 for 16. Big fella needs to be hitting at least 50% if he wants to take that many shots. We are young and it's showing. Missing two key players doesn't help. Tonight wasn't our night. I think we can beat the Hawks if Tyler and DC played.

I like McRoberts, but the guy needs to start producing if he wants to keep playing. From the looks of it he didn't play well on defense and his offense is about as good as Jeff Fosters. I'm not saying Tyler should start, but damn when he doesn't play, McRoberts is just not enough. We need a PF more than anything. Hopefully we can trade Dunleavy to get some help there.

And about the Clippers being better than us in 2 years? I remember people saying that two years ago too. They only have two players i would be interested in, Gordon and Griffin. I'll keep Granger, DC, Hibbert, Rush, Hansbrough and George along with our cap space coming up.

It's a frustrating loss because of the lack of execution. The Hawks are a better team than us, no doubt about it. It's still early in the year, we have plenty of room for improvement. I fully expect to get better execution as the year goes on, every team does. I still like the core we have. Granger showed he can play at both ends. Hibbert showed he can rebound. We know he has the skill to be better on offense too. I think DC would have played rather well against an aging Bibby too.

Let's go play the Clippers and get the win we need. Hover around that .500 mark and as we start to improve we may go over it. I've been expecting a record near .500 and I think that would be huge for this team. Let's let Larry work on bringing a PF in here too. Execution will come with time. We are young, its bumpy, but remember we still got some time on this 3 year plan of Bird's.

CableKC
11-17-2010, 03:34 AM
If there is something that many of the supporters of the whole "Legend of McBob" is beginning to realize is that McBob maybe better suited to be ( at best ) the 1st Big Man off the bench or a ( more realistically ) PF/C that can come in for 10-15 mpg to give a burst of energy, hustle and a change in pace for the Frontcourt. I still think that he can contribute as 8th to 10th rotational Player on the Team...but given our lack of options at the PF spot.....as Peck mentions in his Post-Game thoughts....we may have to get used to see Posey as our Starting PF due to McBob's lack of offense which is limit his effectiveness on the court.

DonSwanson
11-17-2010, 04:23 AM
So, was the game slowed down to minimize the impact of the superior athleticism of the Hawks, which is one thing that O'Brien could have done?

I didn't watch, but I would doubt that he slowed it much, if at all, if history is any guide. Also, the Hawks apparently moved better offensively than the Pacers if the box score is any indication, and that impact would have been lessened at a slower pace. Admittedly, though, that probably would have resulted in our bigs being fouled out very quickly if the Hawks had executed a half court offense designed to create the inevitable mismatches in the half court.

Two good things apparently were the facts that we did get to the line and win the FT battle for once, which is encouraging, and only shot 18 3's, going 4-18 there.

Also, we won the battle of the boards handily, 42 - 30, with 12 offensive boards with the mighty Roy leading the way!

A big factor in why we lost was just a series of anomalies in the third...

6:40 mark, Atlanta leads 58-55... Josh McRoberts misses the dunk (refs miss the foul) which creates a fast break opportunity for Atlanta, layup and one... 5 point swing and it's now 61 to 55.

Shortly after this... A Josh Smith three (yuck--for his career he's 27% from 3). 64 to 55.

5:24 mark, more bad officiating... Marvin Williams travels to break the double team but refs call it a foul and put him on the line.. he makes both, 66-56.


Also, Jeff Teague's two three pointers to close out the first quarter (including one at the buzzer) were huge... After we got down 7-0 we had a great finish to the quarter, and should have been ahead by more than just three.

And at the end of the first half, I thought Posey got fouled on his 3 point attempt, should have given us 3 free throws. We could have potentially been up 52-50 at the half, but instead were down by 1.

And Mike Bibby was on fire with his outside shot in the 2nd quarter and rallied the Hawks from a 6 point deficit.

d_c
11-17-2010, 04:43 AM
If there is something that many of the supporters of the whole "Legend of McBob" is beginning to realize is that McBob maybe better suited to be ( at best ) the 1st Big Man off the bench or a ( more realistically ) PF/C that can come in for 10-15 mpg to give a burst of energy, hustle and a change in pace for the Frontcourt. I still think that he can contribute as 8th to 10th rotational Player on the Team...but given our lack of options at the PF spot.....as Peck mentions in his Post-Game thoughts....we may have to get used to see Posey as our Starting PF due to McBob's lack of offense which is limit his effectiveness on the court.

McBob isn't alone in this.

There are plenty of instances of "Legend of Some Guy Who Fans Think Should Get More Minutes" all around the league. It happens league wide. There's at least one per team.

Some 2nd round pick or undrafted player or some guy signed off the scrap heap looks good in some limited minutes. And then of course the coach pulls him off the floor after just a few of these minutes and fans wonder why. "Hey, he played well in those 5 minutes. Imagine what he could do playing 25."

What people are forgetting is that coaches limit these guys' minutes to certain matchups and situations that they will most likely look good in. They try to keep them away from matchups that they might struggle in.

Now the Pacers are thin at PF this year, but they don't have much options other than to start McBob. Now we're all seeing why he got so few minutes last year. His game is simply too limited on the offensive end, and he's not exactly Ben Wallace in his prime to make up for it on the defensive end. You can survive in short stretches with his shortcomings, but it's harder to do so in extended minutes.

Now opposing teams know he's going to play more so they're going to scout him. Now that he's in the starting lineup, McBob is actually game planned for as opposed to last year where it was highly unlikely last year that the opposition would worry about how they matched up with him. Opponents are going to be far more aware of what the starters are capable of than a reserve guy who plays sporadically.

jmoney2584
11-17-2010, 07:04 AM
I have to be honest here, I've sat behind the Pacers bench twice this year now and McRoberts is the biggest damn cry baby I think I've ever seen. I was in perfect position in the 1st half to see him stripped going up at the rim. He flails and throws a fit at no call. In the 2nd half he ran under Zaza going for a rebound, and threw another fit that Zaza wasn't called for the foul and he was. Then on the way to the bench Dahntay went to give him 5 and cheer him on, and blatantly ignored him while throwing his towel and yelling towards his chair "f-bomb this s-word and f-bomb something else" that I didn't catch, but I saw O'Brien give him a good stare down after the 2nd part that I didn't understand.

I was thoroughly disgusted at his whiney attitude both games, for the entire games.

Sorry I'm late to the party y'all. I agree w about 85% of this thread, most people are right on the money IMO. However, the above quote is one I wanted to touch base on at the end of reading this thread bc it utterly disgusted me, and has been throughout this short season. Josh blatantly makes some physical, and sometimes stupid, rough plays that would be called foul on the roughest playgrounds of NYC, yet he cries his little eyes out and is taken completely out if the game mentally. After said play where he tried to throw his hips under zaza, he came down to the other end of the court and made a weak attempt to block a layup when he should have put a clean, hard foul on the guy to stop the easy bucket, yet it was obviously still a foul even though he wiffed on the attempt and he again cried all the way to the bench as he was immediately pulled by JOB. I believe that mcbob brings some things to the table thy no one else can on this team, but all I'm saying is Tyler would never ever do this. He would get tougha and go make a play, not cry and throw a fit. It's just disappointing and I don't want to see it on our team. No room for that kinda wussy stuff.

D-BONE
11-17-2010, 07:20 AM
Just to be the contrarian..

Ok, maybe Jim would play Dale Davis. I bet he'd rather have Troy Murphy though...

And experienced lock-down perimeter defender... Brandon Rush, yet we see Jim having Dunleavy playing 35+ minutes every game.

An experienced, dynamic scorer capable of creating off the dribble... we have one on the bench named Paul George (minus the experience) who won't get experience. DNP-CDs the last 3 games. Why is that? Because the kid tried to create his own shot...

I agree about the back up center part.

PF/Dale/Troy: Impossible for us to know what JOB would do, but favoring Troy there would be grounds for an ouster.

Lock-down defender: Rush may potentially be that player, but he's by no means experienced or consistent in it. Right now I'd say he's potentially a good perimeter defender, but jury is out if he'll ever develop into an elite lock-down level.

Dynamic scorer: Haven't seen that George is adept off the bounce. Personally, what I've seen is that the handles are a bit loose and he's actually more like Danny's strength - jump shooter. He is way too young to be considered consistent or proven in any case.

Now with points two and three said, I do agree with you that those two young guys should be getting more time. Whether or not they develop into elite players, we'll never know unless they get the chance.

And, yes to Dunleavy needing reduced minutes. Doesn't change the fact that - right now - this team has a lot of work to do improving quality of personnel either by further acquisition and/or major development of individual player quality.

D-BONE
11-17-2010, 07:45 AM
Was reading a recap of the game from a Hawks blog, and he has a nice tidbit about McRoberts guarding Smith



Rest of the article here:
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/

So as others were saying Josh Smith is just really a bad matchup for us.

Seems totally plausible to me. We won the rebound battle but we weren't dominating/taking advantage of a lot of offensive boards for stick backs. And we know, despite all the off-season emphasis on it, that McBob's shot has looked disgusting at times. No reason Smith would have to account for McBob much defensively.

Conversely, if Posey isn't hitting the three, you know he's of no use since Smith will abuse him on D. Don't know what would've resulted from Tyler as the main match up. Bottom line - we don't have a good answer. Our PF position is just not good. I'd say go small with Danny, George, Rush all in the mix and pray.

And, I reiterate, how about trying to somehow take away his dribble to the left for jump hook pet move more than once?

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 08:04 AM
Was reading a recap of the game from a Hawks blog, and he has a nice tidbit about McRoberts guarding Smith



Rest of the article here:
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/

So as others were saying Josh Smith is just really a bad matchup for us.

Or Josh McRoberts is getting exposed now that teams have seen him and have seen what he can do against starters. I don't blame Josh, but he just isn't capable of being a starting power forward and someone who we need to play around 30 minutes a game. He is a backup and capable of being effective in about 12-15 minutes

Trader Joe
11-17-2010, 09:21 AM
McRoberts from shamefully under utilized to shamefully over utilized in 9 games? Only in Pacers land.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 09:26 AM
McRoberts from shamefully under utilized to shamefully over utilized in 9 games? Only in Pacers land.

Who else we got though

Doddage
11-17-2010, 09:31 AM
area 55 needs to get a chant going about firing JoB.. he is probably the lamest coach i have ever seen
If that happens, I'm positive Area 55 won't be happening again in the future. Area 55's job is to cheer for the team, not to tell the Pacers what to do.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 09:33 AM
He was nice on defense tonight,him and Danny were the main reason the Pacers were close in the 1st half, he was trying to be agressive in the offensive end but his shot didn't go down.

He's had 1 good game and 3 poor games. His shots don't go down b/c he's Mr. Inconsistancy! His "D" is average to good at times, and people act like he's an elite "D" player who is on the all "D" team each year.

And to think I use to get so upset with McKey, b/c he was such an underachiever with all the talent he had. Rush wouldn't make a good pimple on McKey's *** as a ball player, and that's putting it politely!

Trophy
11-17-2010, 09:33 AM
I saw Mike Wells tweeted that someone yelled they wanted Lester Conner coaching the Pacers.

I'd welcome him back.

The players enjoyed it when he took over for the one game last season.

dohman
11-17-2010, 09:36 AM
Or Josh McRoberts is getting exposed now that teams have seen him and have seen what he can do against starters. I don't blame Josh, but he just isn't capable of being a starting power forward and someone who we need to play around 30 minutes a game. He is a backup and capable of being effective in about 12-15 minutes



I am not a fanboy of his but I do like his game. He has stopped doing the things that made me like him.

He no longer puts the ball on the hardwood. I would love to see him run the break full speed because he has amazing handles for a pf.

He never thinks he has a good shot or that he can beat his man. I for some reason have this same problem when I play. PASS PASS PASS is his mindset instead of score.

You can tell the kid has fire. He wants to win and gets pissed when people makes mistakes. Because of this I can see him continuing to improve. Right now I think he is a better starter than Tyler but ultimently I think he would be best suited backing up Hilbert and the pf for about 20 a game.

dohman
11-17-2010, 09:37 AM
I wouldnt get to upset about this loss. They are better than us talent wise at EVERY position over than granger.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 09:43 AM
The players enjoyed it when he took over for the one game last season.

Sure the students always loved it too when a substitute teacher took over for 1 day.

Trophy
11-17-2010, 09:45 AM
Sure the students always loved it too when a substitute teacher took over for 1 day.

Conner seemed to be an all around coach offensively and defensively that runs a system that suits all of the players.

When he was here, I saw him working with Roy in the post on defense and offense so he's good "teacher" for the young guys.

xtacy
11-17-2010, 09:46 AM
atlanta is a better team and a very bad matchup for us. i don't think we would have won this even with darren.

i love how danny plays lately. very effective on offense, plays great defense.

i don't care how well ford is defensively he pisses me off. he is prolly the most inconsistent player i've ever seen. i want darren back asap.

posey on smith. i'm gonna leave it there. no comments needed.

although i like the way roy plays he can be more effective at the offensive end.

and i'm very happy seeing paul george improving his game sitting on the bench.

overall i'm happy with the team.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 09:50 AM
Conner seemed to be an all around coach offensively and defensively that runs a system that suits all of the players.



You might be 100% correct, but I don't know how you can know that. He had no time to even consider putting in his own system.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 09:57 AM
I wouldnt get to upset about this loss. They are better than us talent wise at EVERY position over than granger.



Why be upset getting beat by a better team when one never expected a W in the 1st place? If this game had been close down the stretch, maybe, but the 2nd half wasn't even remotely close.

Now, if the Pacers lose to the Clippers, that's a horse of a different color. I may want to express a few adjectives.

CableKC
11-17-2010, 11:42 AM
McBob isn't alone in this.

There are plenty of instances of "Legend of Some Guy Who Fans Think Should Get More Minutes" all around the league. It happens league wide. There's at least one per team.

Some 2nd round pick or undrafted player or some guy signed off the scrap heap looks good in some limited minutes. And then of course the coach pulls him off the floor after just a few of these minutes and fans wonder why. "Hey, he played well in those 5 minutes. Imagine what he could do playing 25."

What people are forgetting is that coaches limit these guys' minutes to certain matchups and situations that they will most likely look good in. They try to keep them away from matchups that they might struggle in.

Now the Pacers are thin at PF this year, but they don't have much options other than to start McBob. Now we're all seeing why he got so few minutes last year. His game is simply too limited on the offensive end, and he's not exactly Ben Wallace in his prime to make up for it on the defensive end. You can survive in short stretches with his shortcomings, but it's harder to do so in extended minutes.

Now opposing teams know he's going to play more so they're going to scout him. Now that he's in the starting lineup, McBob is actually game planned for as opposed to last year where it was highly unlikely last year that the opposition would worry about how they matched up with him. Opponents are going to be far more aware of what the starters are capable of than a reserve guy who plays sporadically.
I wasn't actually blaming McBob for this loss....proverbially speaking....I'm just saying that "some of the tarnish is starting to rub off" when it comes to the "Legend of McBob" after seeing him play significant minutes on a consistent basis this season. He appears to be far more effective with a limited amount of minutes instead of a significant amount of minutes.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 11:45 AM
Now, if the Pacers lose to the Clippers, that's a horse of a different color. I may want to express a few adjectives.

The crazy thing is when the Clippers are healthy they have better talent at every position except small forward. (Clippers have other issues which makes them a bad team, but on talent alone they have no deficit there)

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 11:50 AM
The crazy thing is when the Clippers are healthy they have better talent at every position except small forward. (Clippers have other issues which makes them a bad team, but on talent alone they have no deficit there)

Ok we finally agree in something here :buddies:

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 12:12 PM
Why be upset getting beat by a better team when one never expected a W in the 1st place? If this game had been close down the stretch, maybe, but the 2nd half wasn't even remotely close.

Now, if the Pacers lose to the Clippers, that's a horse of a different color. I may want to express a few adjectives.

Clippers are a good team. They are just very young. I watch all the clipper games they have played alright but they havent closed games well.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 12:16 PM
He's had 1 good game and 3 poor games. His shots don't go down b/c he's Mr. Inconsistancy! His "D" is average to good at times, and people act like he's an elite "D" player who is on the all "D" team each year.

And to think I use to get so upset with McKey, b/c he was such an underachiever with all the talent he had. Rush wouldn't make a good pimple on McKey's *** as a ball player, and that's putting it politely!

Rush and Danny's defense kept the team on the game, Rush was guarding JJ,Bibbi and Crawford, he also had two blocks I wouldn't call that average defense.

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 12:17 PM
The crazy thing is when the Clippers are healthy they have better talent at every position except small forward. (Clippers have other issues which makes them a bad team, but on talent alone they have no deficit there)

Not at PG Baron is HORRIBLE he was the worst shooter in the NBA the last 2 seasons. i would take Hibbert over Kaman( i dont like his game but i love deandrea jordan there starter right now). but Bledsoe is solid he is improving everygame. He is a future stud he will problly get a double double if we dont play solid vs him.

IUfan4life
11-17-2010, 12:35 PM
Clippers are a good team. They are just very young. I watch all the clipper games they have played alright but they havent closed games well.

Having good talent, and being a good team is completely different. The Clippers are not a good team.

ksuttonjr76
11-17-2010, 12:37 PM
After reading this this thread, I'm getting so SICK and TIRED of reading posts where people EXPECT Indiana to lose and "They were the better team". Personally, I thought Indiana played a good game last night, but it gave more confirmation to our TRUE weakness for this team. Indiana NEEDS a better backup Center, and for Tyler to stay healthy. I believe that Tyler was the only player strong enough to handle Josh in the post. If you look at Josh's game, he's doesn't use his quickness to break players off the dribble so Tyler would have been alright there. PLUS, Tyler is so relentless at attacking and scraping for loose balls, he would have eventually gotten under Josh's skin.

We lost, because the one person who was strong enough to handle Josh Smith was not available. Indiana is a MUCH better team than what people give them credit for. Minus the Philly game, Indiana had been in every game played this season. That's a BIG improvement from last year where they blow people out or got blown out. I have been pretty comfortable with this team and JOB's coaching this season. We're losing the game on key possessions (and bad calls), but that's more an indication of poor mental toughness. Once Indiana (and their fans) start believing that this team will win, then we'll see less and less of those mental mistakes in key possessions. Honestly, I don't really see any thing that JOB could have done differently other than keep McRoberts on Josh Smith, play D. Jones at the PF, or play Foster. Given the situation, JOB was limited.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 12:50 PM
Not at PG Baron is HORRIBLE he was the worst shooter in the NBA the last 2 seasons. i would take Hibbert over Kaman( i dont like his game but i love deandrea jordan there starter right now). but Bledsoe is solid he is improving everygame. He is a future stud he will problly get a double double if we dont play solid vs him.

Baron when motivated and healthy is/was one of the best players in the NBA. Not just one of the best point guards but one of the best players.

Peck
11-17-2010, 01:12 PM
After reading this this thread, I'm getting so SICK and TIRED of reading posts where people EXPECT Indiana to lose and "They were the better team". Personally, I thought Indiana played a good game last night, but it gave more confirmation to our TRUE weakness for this team. Indiana NEEDS a better backup Center, and for Tyler to stay healthy. I believe that Tyler was the only player strong enough to handle Josh in the post. If you look at Josh's game, he's doesn't use his quickness to break players off the dribble so Tyler would have been alright there. PLUS, Tyler is so relentless at attacking and scraping for loose balls, he would have eventually gotten under Josh's skin.

We lost, because the one person who was strong enough to handle Josh Smith was not available. Indiana is a MUCH better team than what people give them credit for. Minus the Philly game, Indiana had been in every game played this season. That's a BIG improvement from last year where they blow people out or got blown out. I have been pretty comfortable with this team and JOB's coaching this season. We're losing the game on key possessions (and bad calls), but that's more an indication of poor mental toughness. Once Indiana (and their fans) start believing that this team will win, then we'll see less and less of those mental mistakes in key possessions. Honestly, I don't really see any thing that JOB could have done differently other than keep McRoberts on Josh Smith, play D. Jones at the PF, or play Foster. Given the situation, JOB was limited.

Not that I disagree with you overall but how can you look at last nights game and use that as an example. I think Solomon was one of the bright spots last night.

Again, overall I agree but I don't think that had anything to do with that game.

As to Tyler on Josh? Maybe. However offensively I think he would have destroyed Tyler as almost every single posession as Tyler would have had every one of those awkward one handed unorthadox shots sent the other way. Now if he could have hit that face up jumper to make him work a little harder than that is a different story. However the same thing can be said of McRoberts as well.

cordobes
11-17-2010, 01:14 PM
Baron when motivated and healthy is/was one of the best players in the NBA. Not just one of the best point guards but one of the best players.

I'd rather say "could have been". Gigantic waste of talent.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 01:17 PM
Solomon looked good mostly because his teammates made him look good. I'm not impressed by your game if it revolves around a teammate being a good passer.

Since86
11-17-2010, 01:18 PM
Yeah, exactly. That's my point.

I know this is going to get sent back a couple of pages, but you do realize that Roy has ashma problems, right?

Kinda hard to play long minutes, when you have breathing problems......

Roy and Josh aren't comparable for that reason alone.

cordobes
11-17-2010, 01:19 PM
Was reading a recap of the game from a Hawks blog, and he has a nice tidbit about McRoberts guarding Smith



Rest of the article here:
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/

So as others were saying Josh Smith is just really a bad matchup for us.

The part about Roy Hibbert is also interesting:



Roy Hibbert:

"I wasnít able to get to my sweet spots where I wanted to go. They did a good job of pressuring me. I should be able to do more. I canít have a real good first half and drop off in the second half."

You can when Josh Powell and Jason Collins disappear from the court.

Since86
11-17-2010, 01:23 PM
...I don't know what you're laughing at, it seems like a pretty true statement to me.

Again, I know this is going to be pushed back a couple of pages, but you do realize that you were just talking about how we don't have the horses to defend all the weapons that the Hawks have, and then you're arguing how important Dunleavy is.


Well maybe we don't have the horses, because Mike Freaking Dunleavy is expected to guard one of them??????

If Dahnatay Jones can't get any time against a team like the Hawks, when they have an abundance of weapons on the wing, then he needs to be cut. Salary lost on cutting a player still equals the amount of salary sitting on the bench. Didn't Mags actually sign a contract? So you could have swapped them out for the same exact price........

EDIT: Isn't this the EXACT reason why DJones was even signed? Two summers ago Jim cried that he didn't have enough defenders, that's why they got beat. I'm not saying DJones is the wonderboy, and he'll solve all our problems. Not even close. I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. But he should be used as a situational player, and this was the time to do it.

I think you can make it pretty clear to him that he goes in for defense, and unless he makes a cut to the basket and gets the ball, creating offense should be the last on his priority list.

DJones is a horrible signing, not because what he brings to the court or how much he's being paid, it's because he was brought in to do something, and doesn't ever do it.

Trophy
11-17-2010, 01:35 PM
It goes to show how much DC means to this team.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 01:43 PM
I'd rather say "could have been". Gigantic waste of talent.

But for 2 or 3 seasons in Charlotte and for 2 seasons in Golden State he was one of the best players in the NBA and the success of his teams proved that.

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 01:50 PM
Baron when motivated and healthy is/was one of the best players in the NBA. Not just one of the best point guards but one of the best players.

not over the last 2 yrs he has really struggeled in LA shooting 38% worst in the NBA. He just isnt a good fit for the clippers. The guy is near untradeable. on clipper fourms almost everyone wants eric bledsoe to start when Baron comes back. Baron has been a ball hog the past couple yrs and is really bad. I want him gone. Watch him play before you u say something like that Baron hasnt been that elite player you speak of in quite a while. ive watched almost every clipper game the past couple yrs.

Trophy
11-17-2010, 01:52 PM
I liked what Chris and Quinn said last night.

We can't take the Clippers record for granted. They're still an NBA team and we can't slack off.

Hopefully DC and Tyler will be ready to go.

MyFavMartin
11-17-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't know about you guys after watching last night's game, but I'm hungry for a 4 foot Steak n' Shake milkshake.

dohman
11-17-2010, 01:57 PM
It goes to show how much DC means to this team.

I agree. With a healthy DC I think it would of been a 1 or 2 point game going in either direction. Nothing against bibby but he would not be able to contain DC. We really missed his 15 and 5 last night.


We also lost points at pf. It would of been nice to have tylers 10-15. Although soloman shot the ball really well last night. He still does not make up for the hustle plays tyler does on the court.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 02:06 PM
But for 2 or 3 seasons in Charlotte and for 2 seasons in Golden State he was one of the best players in the NBA and the success of his teams proved that.

I like Baron Davis, but his biggest problem is that he is overweight and is been hurt too much in the last few years, there was a rumor that the Clippers tried to trade him and Kaman to Cleveland and they turned them down.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 02:26 PM
The crazy thing is when the Clippers are healthy they have better talent at every position except small forward. (Clippers have other issues which makes them a bad team, but on talent alone they have no deficit there)


I won't disagree with your statement about their talent, but the Pacers being beat by a 1-10 team that plays awful will be a hugh disappointment.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 02:32 PM
I won't disagree with your statement about their talent, but the Pacers being beat by a 1-10 team that plays awful will be a hugh disappointment.

Justin tyme look at the Clippers schedule and tell me how many games you think the Pacers could have won out of those 11 games, maybe 3? and the Pacers have Danny.

here is the schedule:

Portland,GS,Dallas,Spurs,Thunder(win),Nuggets,Utah ,NO,Spurs,Detroit and Nets.

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 02:35 PM
I won't disagree with your statement about their talent, but the Pacers being beat by a 1-10 team that plays awful will be a hugh disappointment.

they play much better than there record indicates. They stay close in almost every game but they dont finish games well.

odeez
11-17-2010, 02:35 PM
The Hawks just have too many weapons to score on us with. Plus their core has played together for awhile and they have Playoff experience as well. I am not surprised by the Pacers getting beat by them.

The Pacers lack the talent to match-up with the top-tier teams, IMO. Can we beat them? Yes, on a really good night, but not consistently, not yet...

DG and Roy played good, but Dun is simply not earning his money. Having DC and Tyler out didn't help matters.

I can't help but think how I would live to see Josh Smith play for us at the 4. I think Roy and Josh would be great next to each other. I would try to make that happen if I were TPTB.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 02:37 PM
The Pacers have 2 problems at the present time that needs to be addressed immediately if not sooner. They need a good quality starting PF, and a good b/u Center. Sorry, McBob and Hans fans, but they are bench rotational players not starters. These 2 issues are major weaknesses for the Pacers, and other teams will exploit these weaknesses until Bird does something about it.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 02:44 PM
The Pacers have 2 problems at the present time that needs to be addressed immediately if not sooner. They need a good quality starting PF, and a good b/u Center. Sorry, McBob and Hans fans, but they are bench rotational players not starters. These 2 issues are major weaknesses for the Pacers, and other teams will exploit these weaknesses until Bird does something about it.

I agree with you about the PF(and I am a huge Tyler fan) I disagree with you about the back up center, Solo is doing an ok job and he is cheap, what do you really want for a back up that doesn't make much? I would even play Mcbob at center sometimes.

Brad8888
11-17-2010, 02:50 PM
A big factor in why we lost was just a series of anomalies in the third...


You could just as well have said that the anomolous 4-18 from the arc for the Pacers coupled with the anomolous 8-15 shooting from the arc for the Hawks cost the Pacers the game, too, and had just as much validity overall.

Sookie
11-17-2010, 02:50 PM
I agree with you about the PF(and I am a huge Tyler fan) I disagree with you about the back up center, Solo is doing an ok job and he is cheap, what do you really want for a back up that doesn't make much? I would even play Mcbob at center sometimes.

Actually, if we were able to get a starting PF, a post rotation of
Roy/Josh
PF/Tyler

would probably be pretty good. Josh and Tyler seemed to play pretty good together. And I think they both give you stuff you want out of backup Posts.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 02:56 PM
Actually, if we were able to get a starting PF, a post rotation of
Roy/Josh
PF/Tyler

would probably be pretty good. Josh and Tyler seemed to play pretty good together. And I think they both give you stuff you want out of backup Posts.

I keep dreaming about getting Varejao or Nene

ThA HoyA
11-17-2010, 03:09 PM
I keep dreaming about getting Varejao or Nene

I keep dreaming about getting Josh smith :) only jersey I own thats not a pacers one.

PaceBalls
11-17-2010, 03:37 PM
I keep dreaming about us starting Tyler and seeing him play 30+ minutes a game.

Scot Pollard
11-17-2010, 03:40 PM
I keep dreaming about us starting Tyler and seeing him play 30+ minutes a game.

we wish but hopefully soon tyler is our future pf after all

beast23
11-17-2010, 03:48 PM
I can recall during our "good" seasons that I used to track games that I thought we should have won but lost, and vice-versa. For example, during the late 90s, I usually counted 6-7 games that I thought just got away from us each season. During the 61 win season, I think my count was 3.

I haven't even bothered tracking it the last few seasons. The reason? We are a young team, relatively inexperienced, and are bound to lose several games that we could have, or even should have, won. And that is going to be the story of this team for the next couple of years, at least until we get a good PF and he has a chance to blend with his teammates.

Every now and then, we will beat a team that most of us would think we have little to no chance of beating. But more often than not, our surprises will come in losing a game that we should have won. That's what young teams and teams with little depth do.

But each game that we lose, one thing I can count on is a handful of individuals who come on and blame Dunleavy, SJones, DJones or the resident whipping boy of the week/month for our loss.

More often than not, the logic and analysis to support the claim, even in the rare instance it is supplied, is off kilter. We are only 9 games into the season, and it is already getting old.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 03:55 PM
We are a young team, relatively inexperienced, and are bound to lose several games that we could have, or even should have, won

Yeah that team last night was really young TJ Ford 27, Danny 27, Dun 30, Posey 33 Hibbert 23.

Scot Pollard
11-17-2010, 03:59 PM
Yeah that team last night was really young TJ Ford 27, Danny 27, Dun 30, Posey 33 Hibbert 23.

heck we'd probably do better if it was only the young core players getting the majority of the minutes not dunleavy, ford, posey

veterans are important to have on your bench but not for them to take away all of the minutes from young players especially paul george

Speed
11-17-2010, 04:02 PM
heck we'd probably do better if it was only the young core players getting the majority of the minutes not dunleavy, ford, posey

veterans are important to have on your bench but not for them to take away all of the minutes from young players especially paul george

And so it begins....

Scot Pollard
11-17-2010, 04:05 PM
And so it begins....

dont get me wrong i think a guy like mike dunleavy has done well but he should be coming off the bench to make it stronger

ford is good to have playing 15-20 minutes a game with collison playing about 30

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 04:07 PM
dont get me wrong i think a guy like mike dunleavy has done well but he should be coming off the bench to make it stronger

ford is good to have playing 15-20 minutes a game with collison playing about 30

its not a diss on mike but we need his scoring on the 2nd unit. We need Rush's defense on the first.

Eleazar
11-17-2010, 04:18 PM
its dont diss on mike but we need his scoring on the 2nd unit. We need Rush's defense on the first.

I agree with who we have on this team the younger players are more talented and need to be getting the majority of the minutes, while the vets are better as their back-ups. Although I don't think that at this point in time that George needs to be averaging 20 minutes a game. 10 minutes sounds like a good place for him at this minute. Hopefully later in the season he will be ready for 20 minutes, but right now he just isn't there yet. Although he defiantly shouldn't be playing 0 minutes.

Midcoasted
11-17-2010, 06:10 PM
I think what we learned tonight is Posey should never ever gaurd Josh Smith. If Hansbrough is available, he should split time with McRoberts, then end. Posey is only good on players closer to own age/ability. Putting him on a guy like Smith was an epic failure.

Sad to say but we could have really used Magnum Rolle last night. Cutting him just lost us out first game IMO. We needed his lenght, athleticism and quickness gaurding Smith last night.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 06:43 PM
Justin tyme look at the Clippers schedule and tell me how many games you think the Pacers could have won out of those 11 games, maybe 3? and the Pacers have Danny.

here is the schedule:

Portland,GS,Dallas,Spurs,Thunder(win),Nuggets,Utah ,NO,Spurs,Detroit and Nets.


Yes, I read that when posted before. They still should have beaten both Detroit and the Nets. Having talent and winning with it is 2 different things.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 06:48 PM
I agree with you about the PF(and I am a huge Tyler fan) I disagree with you about the back up center, Solo is doing an ok job and he is cheap, what do you really want for a back up that doesn't make much? I would even play Mcbob at center sometimes.



We'll have to disagree. Solo has 8 rebs in 9 games. That's absolutely pathetic! I have no doubt you could get that many rebs with the same minutes. McBob isn't b/u Center quality material.

ilive4sports
11-17-2010, 06:51 PM
I think what we learned tonight is Posey should never ever gaurd Josh Smith. If Hansbrough is available, he should split time with McRoberts, then end. Posey is only good on players closer to own age/ability. Putting him on a guy like Smith was an epic failure.

Sad to say but we could have really used Magnum Rolle last night. Cutting him just lost us out first game IMO. We needed his lenght, athleticism and quickness gaurding Smith last night.

Just because magnum has length and athleticism doesn't mean he would have been able to handle josh Smith. If we would have relied on him to do so last night the result would be the same.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 06:51 PM
We'll have to disagree. Solo has 8 rebs in 9 games. That's absolutely pathetic! I have no doubt you could get that many rebs with the same minutes. McBob isn't b/u Center quality material.

But what kind of center you want to bring for less than 2mil a year that could give you everything you want?

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 06:54 PM
I keep dreaming about getting Varejao or Nene


That's like me dreaming about getting Ibaka. I'd trade them Rush, 011 1st, and either or both Lorbek/Stanko. I'm sure OKC would hang up after hearing the offer, but I'd have to make the offer anyway.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 06:56 PM
That's like me dreaming about getting Ibaka. I'd trade them Rush, 011 1st, and either or both Lorbek/Stanko. I'm sure OKC would hang up after hearing the offer, but I'd have to make the offer anyway.

He is the only thing they have, no way they let him go.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 07:03 PM
But what kind of center you want to bring for less than 2mil a year that could give you everything you want?


I can't believe I'm about to say this, a YOUNGER CHEAPER INJURY FREE Foster who can score. Don't ever say I say I said this b/c I'll deny it! :D

Midcoasted
11-17-2010, 07:07 PM
Just because magnum has length and athleticism doesn't mean he would have been able to handle josh Smith. If we would have relied on him to do so last night the result would be the same.

I just refuse to believe that James Posey can gaurd a 4 like Josh Smith as good as Magnum can. Sure Magnum may have been an offensive liability but I think the net points outscored would have been less against a rotation of McRoberts/Rolle or McRoberts/Hansbrough if Hans was healthy.

James Posey got lit up last night and McRoberts wasn't a whole lot better. The 4 spot cost us a game last night. Not having Collison sure didn't help, but with a guy who could have stopped that damn hook shot that was shoved down our throats 15 times I think we would have won.

Posey last night had the Murphy effect on us. Our PF gets shredded and we get dominated. We still need a starting PF before we are a contender. I'm not sure overpaying for Horford is the answer. If Josh Smith is on the trade block for real we need him. Maybe he has a bad attitude I don't know so he might not be the best option for us. But he sure is what we are missing. His defensive presence on the inside is excellent and his offensive post game is nice as well.

I always thought of him as a wing but he would be nice rotation with Hans and hopefully we get a better back up center or Magnum plays like he did last night for the rest of his career lol

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 07:11 PM
I can't believe I'm about to say this, a YOUNGER CHEAPER INJURY FREE Foster who can score. Don't ever say I say I said this b/c I'll deny it! :D

I agree but who is that in the NBA? anybody you have in mind? young? cheap and less than 2mil? rebounder? taller than 6'10''?

spazzxb
11-17-2010, 08:26 PM
I keep dreaming about us starting Tyler and seeing him play 30+ minutes a game.

I expect he will get his shot eventually, but I like him as a scorer in the second unit. I don't think we would need him scoring as a starter. I am not sure what the optimal rotation is but I do see Tyler proving himself to be the better offensive threat and I like his toughness and attitude.

spazzxb
11-17-2010, 08:31 PM
And so it begins.... Just be glad no one has started calling for us to tank yet. You don't have to be on tv to grow as a player.

beast23
11-17-2010, 08:47 PM
Sad to say but we could have really used Magnum Rolle last night. Cutting him just lost us out first game IMO. We needed his lenght, athleticism and quickness gaurding Smith last night.Rolle has not yet even played his first NBA game. I think Smith's experience would have eaten Rolle alive.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 09:11 PM
I agree but who is that in the NBA? anybody you have in mind? young? cheap and less than 2mil? rebounder? taller than 6'10''?



Not anyone that is available.

Justin Tyme
11-17-2010, 09:15 PM
Rolle has not yet even played his first NBA game. I think Smith's experience would have eaten Rolle alive.


If he could, he'd be on a NBA roster not on a NBADL team.

vnzla81
11-17-2010, 09:22 PM
Not anyone that is available.

So why you are complaining about not having a back up center? :laugh:

Trophy
11-17-2010, 09:27 PM
I just want to know. Have previous coaches Posey's played under use him to play PF like JOB does?

Trophy
11-17-2010, 09:30 PM
So why you are complaining about not having a back up center? :laugh:

I think we should start Josh at PF then Tyler is the first guy off the bench who replaces Josh. Then when Roy is ready to sit down, Josh plays center.

It's a young cycle and Josh is able to play the center position fairly well.

CableKC
11-17-2010, 09:37 PM
Rolle has not yet even played his first NBA game. I think Smith's experience would have eaten Rolle alive.
To be fair, I think that Hansbrough wouldn't have faired as well against JSmoove either.

daschysta
11-17-2010, 10:17 PM
I just want to know. Have previous coaches Posey's played under use him to play PF like JOB does?

Yes.

In his older age he is actually a more effective PF than SF.

Just not when he's asked to guard athletic freaks who can jump out of the gym... sigh. Jim really should have been able to make an adjustment at that time.

BlueNGold
11-17-2010, 10:33 PM
JOb has made far more good adjustments this year than bad...and he's doing better this year in general. Should have Posey been on Josh Smith? I don't think so, but it wasn't a horrible decision. Personally, I would have used Josh or Dahntay in this instance. Posey under other circumstances. The Hawks are already more athletic than our players at most positions. I don't think Posey should have been on the floor, honestly. But again, props to JOb this year. Other than AJ not getting more minutes, there is not much I can complain about.

Sookie
11-17-2010, 10:46 PM
JOb has made far more good adjustments this year than bad...and he's doing better this year in general. Should have Posey been on Josh Smith? I don't think so, but it wasn't a horrible decision. Personally, I would have used Josh or Dahntay in this instance. Posey under other circumstances. The Hawks are already more athletic than our players at most positions. I don't think Posey should have been on the floor, honestly. But again, props to JOb this year. Other than AJ not getting more minutes, there is not much I can complain about.

Honestly, I think he started out pretty good (other than the AJ thing..)

But we just saw a TJ/Dun/rush/Danny/Posey lineup....

And I see things going slowly back to the way they were..TJ's going to be taking more and more of DC's time..Posey's going to take Josh and Tyler's time..Hibbert's not going to be in at the end of the game..

It's eight games into the season, and we're already seeing hints of that stuff.

Midcoasted
11-17-2010, 11:07 PM
Rolle has not yet even played his first NBA game. I think Smith's experience would have eaten Rolle alive.

Well there is absolutely no way that he would have done any worse than Posey, who couldn't stop him a single time. So the worst thing would be he would have got destroyed like Posey. The obvious problem with Posey was he didn't have the length or hops to alter his shots. His awareness is fine. So I may be jumping a conclusion by presuming Rolle would be able to have a similiar level of IQ as Posey, while maintaining his obvious length and athletic advantage.

Maybe Rolle isn't the answer but niether is Posey and it's going to really hurt us this year. We need Josh Smith. I'd give them McRoberts, Rush and next years first. Still don't think that would be enough.