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RoboHicks
11-14-2010, 09:20 PM
Odd thoughts while navigating the high seas
Written by Peck

Link (http://www.pacersdigest.com/wordpress/?p=249)

*

Well at the 8 game mark we are a .500% ball club with a record of 4-4. Thatís not really a bad record nor technically is it a good record either but with the new mix of players, plays & even new assistant coachís I think most of us can look objectively at this and say that we are not really upset by the record as it stands.

However in todayís journey I want to guide you through what I perceive to be rough waters.

Some of this we have covered before & frankly some of it is rehashing of problems from the past but I think it is worth taking the time to look at anyway. However so that we are fair & balanced we will also look at some bright spots as well.

Rough Waters:

Josh McRoberts had a period of about 3 games where he got into early foul trouble and thus forcing Jim to replace him far earlier in the rotation than the plans called for. Obviously he can not always control what is called on him and for the most part the fouls have been legitimate (in other words no soft touch fouls) but it does mess up the rotation massively when he does this so early on.

Josh McRoberts has got to become somewhat of an offensive threat. Sorry for picking on Josh in this post because I am a supporter but he has got to develop some form of offense other than a high flying spectacular dunk. Now donít get me wrong we need those as well but the other night vs. the Cavaliers they literally were giving Josh 8-10 jumpers and daring him to hit them. I donít know what his field goal % is right now but I can assure you that away from layups & dunks it has got to be terrible. Also while we are at it OíBrien needs to have him shooting 500 free throws a day because at this point in time he is making Dale Davis look like Calvin Murphy from the free throw line.

Darren Collison ball gawking. He usually does fairly decent about staying with his man, although he has certainly been burnt a few times there as well, but his off the ball defense has led to several wide open cuts to the lane and easy layups by his man because he literally loses them while watching the ball and they make a quick cut to the basket usually leading to an easy 2 or in a few cases so far a and 1 situation.

Paul George has been too passive for my taste. I get that he can hit the three and I get that he has a silky smooth jumper but to borrow a phrase from Rocky I really want to see the eye of the tiger from Paul. I almost want R. Lee Emory to come scream at him to show us his war face. I have no problem with Jim giving Paul a little pine time to get his attention as long as that is the goal, which I do believe it is. I think if Paul has good practices this week you will see him right back in the lineup.

Tyler Hansbrough not understanding the offense pretty much at all. I donít remember him having this type of trouble last year but right now for the most part he seems lost on the offensive end and he is getting his scores usually off of broken plays. Now to me this may also be part of another troubling trend we will talk about in a few minutes but for now this is the system we run so I guess Tyler has got to learn it & execute it.

Tyler Hansbrough needs to rebound better on both ends of the floor. For the life of me I can not figure out why this guy is not averaging 9 rebounds a game. He is huge so he clears out space, he blocks out fairly well that I can tell; now he is not a leaper but good positioning should take care of that problem. This is something he is going to have to work on as the year moves on.

Danny Grangers shot selection has been somewhat iffy from game to game. There are some games where he seems intent on driving to the basket and then other games he seems content taking a quick jumper either from distance or even a mid range. Now there is nothing wrong with mixing it up so no complaints there but I think he needs to mix it up every game.

Our offense has also begun to trouble me over the past few games. In fact while we all want to be happy about the 20-21 in the Denver game I actually was somewhat disturbed because I really wonder what happens if those same shots are not dropping? I heard Jim say after the game how each of those shots were good shot and I kept thinking to myself does he really believe this? I mean several of those Mike Dunleavy shots were with him falling to the floor and often times with a defender rushing at him. There were also some mid range shots that I was wondering about as well. Now donít get me wrong when you are on a streak like that you obviously can take shots where you want to but I am troubled that the last three games have required super human scoring streaks or at the very least highly improbable shooting %. Obviously the Denver game will not be repeated but what I found more troubling was that it took James Posey going nuts from the three point line to even get us back into the game vs. Houston. Overall I am just very concerned about the way we are scoring in general. I have a feeling that there is already enough tape on us out there that teams are just cutting off the lanes and daring us to just take jumpers. Some games you are going to hit those jumpers some you are not but you need to have some form of offense in mind so that you do not use the old adage of live by the sword die by the sword (insert jumper or three for sword).

Jim OíBrien I fear is already losing patience with the players. I have really been troubled that our closing lineup the past couple of games has included T.J. Ford, James Posey & Josh McRoberts taking the role of undersized center.

So letís review that lineup for a minute shall we? Mike Dunleavy, Danny Granger, T.J Ford, James Posey & Josh McRoberts. HmmmÖ..

This sounds small, old and other than Josh un-athletic to me, in other words the same type of lineup that he has used every other year that he has been here.

While our defense has been solid it really struggles when Roy is not in there to anchor the middle & for the life of me I do not understand why he is not closing out games when they are still in contention as to who wins.

Again Iím not jumping course here I just find some of these to be troubling.

Smooth Sailing:

Mike Dunleavy seems to have at least found his shot again. I like the three point shot that he can give you but I really enjoy the fact that he is trying to get to the lane and draw fouls. His defense will never be anything to shout about but at least he is not ball gawking like his partner in the starting back court.

Roy Hibbert has been absolutely fabulous on the defensive end for the most part, well other than letting old man river Brad Miller abuse him the other night (still one of the worst trades in Pacers history btw) but Roy has stayed out of foul trouble and has been not only blocking shots but altering them as well. Several times during the Cleveland game I noticed guards begin to penetrate only to see Roy in position so they just passed out. His rebounding has been an added bonus as well. I donít think any of us would have predicted that his rebounding would be anywhere near as good as it has been.

Danny Grangerís shot selection, yea I know Iím contradicting myself here but Iím doing it anyway. For the most part this year Danny has been very conscious about not just settling for threeís and has mixed in some of the old mans game that Eddie Johnson bragged about three years ago. In other words while he still plays below the rim he has a wide array of shots that he can get off and does not need athleticism to get them.

James Posey is not Troy Murphy. Look I donít want Posey sucking up a lot of minutes on the floor but one thing needs to be made clear for those who want to just say that he is this years Troy. No, he is not. James actually plays defense and plays it very well. Obviously he no longer has any speed and his offense is sickening to me but on the defensive end there is no comparison to Troy Murphy at all.

Jim for the most part has kept a big man on the floor most of the season. I honestly donít know if Danny has even played one min. yet at the four spot, he may have I just donít remember it. But he is either running Roy, Josh or Solo on the floor. Now Posey is really to short for my taste at the 4 but he is now to slow to keep up with the younger wings so by default he is now a power forward.

Darren Collison can get his shot off any time and anywhere. Unlike T.J. though he actually doesnít make me cringe when he shoots. I have given up on our point guards ever being anything other than glorified shooting guards until we have a coaching change so I do not even look at the assist from Darren anymore because our system is not designed for that but I do believe he can be that type of point guard and also a scorer on top of it. I think he and Danny & Roy are a very solid foundation to build upon.

T.J. Ford has played decent basketball. Very solid defensively and while at times I want to scream at the top of my lungs about his decision making he hasnít been that bad. Now the down side to this is that A.J. Price is just sitting over there doing nothing. Iím not sure what the plan is here, I just do not believe teams showcase players the way some of you think that they do. The book has been written on T.J. Ford so nothing is going to change there; I just actually feel that Jim (after 3 years) is comfortable with him. So if this leads to a mid season trade or not we will never know but I think he is playing not because of any showcase I think he is playing because Jim prefers him at this time.

Observing the mariners compass:

We are about to embark on a killer schedule with lots of very good teams and at least two sets of 3 games in 4 nights. If we can come out of our next 8 games at .500% I think you have to look at that as win for our club.

Tyler rolled his ankle so that is troubling as we could use some aggressiveness when the Hawks come to town. Letís hope he can both go and play.

I think it is highly important that we establish some form of low post game from Roy & we really need to start working on getting some kind of offensive plays designed to get Tyler some looks going to the basket as well.

Red sky at night sailorís delight, Red sky in the morning sailors takes warning:

Hib Hib Hoo Roy: Big Roy is second in the NBA at 3.0 blocks per game trailing only behind Josh Smith who is averaging 3.1 He is also 13 in the NBA with 9.6 rebounds per game.

Work on it: Josh McRoberts is shooting an anemic 29% from the free throw line which is far worse than either his field goal or even three point shooting.

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kester99
11-14-2010, 09:38 PM
Lots of good stuff there. One thing that jumped out at me:

"If we can come out of our next 8 games at .500% I think you have to look at that as win for our club."

I think that should read 'a tremendous win' for our club. Really, expecting to win more than two or three of those games seems like a stretch to me. But hey, if we beat Atlanta, I'll change my tune on that.

MLB007
11-14-2010, 09:39 PM
Tyler is averaging 4.1 rebs in 17 minutes. That's 8.2 in 34 minutes.
Not sure what you are expecting there............................

Overall, I think you're pretty much wrong on most of the criticisms.
As for the players tuning out coach, you must have missed the last game.
Where they won with defense and played nice team defense.
It was almost as though the players were doing what their coach required.

Imagine that.

You are right about Josh, his shot is ***** and it's why he won't be starting for long. We don't need him shooting 3's but he's not even close or looking comfortable from 15'. LOVE his energy and passing, but you can't be a total liability on the offensive end.

vnzla81
11-14-2010, 10:42 PM
Once again good post, I'm starting to think that is true that we actually have the worst starting PF in the NBA, I like Josh but he hasn't done much lately.

Regarding Posey and the comparison with Murphy I agree that his defense is a bit better but again he should be an small part in the team and shouldn't be playing that Many minutes.

I also agree with you about the shot selection, Dunleavy is been making some weird shots, even Danny has been making impossible shots, I spect them to kill the team more times than help.

I been saying for a while that I have a feeling that Jim is going back to his veteran line up and he is been getting there slowly.

Peck
11-14-2010, 11:48 PM
Once again good post, I'm starting to think that is true that we actually have the worst starting PF in the NBA, I like Josh but he hasn't done much lately.

Regarding Posey and the comparison with Murphy I agree that his defense is a bit better but again he should be an small part in the team and shouldn't be playing that Many minutes.

I also agree with you about the shot selection, Dunleavy is been making some weird shots, even Danny has been making impossible shots, I spect them to kill the team more times than help.

I been saying for a while that I have a feeling that Jim is going back to his veteran line up and he is been getting there slowly.

That might be a little harsh but then again if we go starting 4 by starting 4 he might be one of the worst.

However even as bad as he has been playing so far, he is still a huge improvment over Troy Murphy.

I still think with time he will be fine but there can be no doubt he has to have some form of offense.

vnzla81
11-15-2010, 12:03 AM
That might be a little harsh but then again if we go starting 4 by starting 4 he might be one of the worst.

However even as bad as he has been playing so far, he is still a huge improvment over Troy Murphy.

I still think with time he will be fine but there can be no doubt he has to have some form of offense.

I agree is better than having Murphy but he needs to be able to do something in the offensive end, I was laughing hard when Jim called that last second play for him, it was like watching the Jeff Foster Lakers play all over again.

Peck
11-15-2010, 12:30 AM
I agree is better than having Murphy but he needs to be able to do something in the offensive end, I was laughing hard when Jim called that last second play for him, it was like watching the Jeff Foster Lakers play all over again.

Can't argue with that. I like Josh, I like Tyler as well but right now both are struggling a little bit.

Hopefully time will improve that.

MLB007
11-15-2010, 01:05 AM
It's a 2 headed monster at 4 right now and those guys are averaging 14.2pts and 10.6 boards per game in 40ish minutes.
I'm guessing that's competitive at the position.

Peck
11-15-2010, 01:59 AM
Dang it I knew I forgot something.

Brandon Rush has now played in three games and has attempted, yes you guess it, 2 free throws. Both of which were in his first game back.

Peck
11-15-2010, 02:06 AM
Lots of good stuff there. One thing that jumped out at me:

"If we can come out of our next 8 games at .500% I think you have to look at that as win for our club."

I think that should read 'a tremendous win' for our club. Really, expecting to win more than two or three of those games seems like a stretch to me. But hey, if we beat Atlanta, I'll change my tune on that.

Yea .500% really should be looked at as a huge victory for us. It is going to be a very rough couple of weeks.

CableKC
11-15-2010, 03:30 AM
I know that we are talking about the "here and now", but if we are to step back and look at both McBob and Hansbrough and what they truly appear to be....IMHO, solid backup Players at their respective positions that can ( if needed ) step in and be a "short-term" Starter but not truly suited to be "long-term" Starting material. It does not surprise me that they are struggling in their current roles.....I'd be more surprised if we weren't struggling.

What strikes me most about our PF rotation is that we are forced to play Posey as a PF not as much because he's doing fairly well...but because he's doing better then our current rotation of actual PFs ( at least compared to McBob and Hansbrough ) and JO'B doesn't appear to have too much choice.

cdash
11-15-2010, 03:40 AM
Dang it I knew I forgot something.

Brandon Rush has now played in three games and has attempted, yes you guess it, 2 free throws. Both of which were in his first game back.

That's troubling.

ballism
11-15-2010, 06:16 AM
McRoberts has 7 FT attemps for all 8 games btw. On one hand, that means there's no reason to be so ultra negative with his 0.286 %, i'd be surprised if he's not at 0.500-.0600 by the end of the season. On the other hand, it's surprising he has less than 1 FT a game, considering his style.

BringJackBack
11-15-2010, 06:28 AM
Well, I guess that I am going to be the first to point this out.

I'm going to call the two headed monster with Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansbrough bogus. Don't get me wrong before I start rambling on about them, they have been fairly good for us in terms of energy and rebounding. However, when I think of monster I at least think of someone who can at least create their own shot or someone that is able to get a shot off in traffic.

We all know Tyler's back to back game is very suspicious and Josh's doesn't exist while they both aren't respectable enough at 17-18 feet to take the ball off the dribble like say JJ Hickson or even Jason Thompson to name a few younger players. They are good rebounders but neither have the ability- at least yet anyways- to have big time games on the boards. On top of that- us, one of the worst fouling teams in the league- Josh and Tyler foul way, way, way too much as well as other role players such as Solo, James Posey, Dahntay Jones, and Paul George.

So, to conclude my mini-rant I just want to say that when someone compares Josh and Tyler to someone like Al Horford or Chris Bosh think twice about it because Tyler and Josh mostly get buckets by filling the lanes on the break, broken plays, off of offensive rebounds, or whatever. That's not a bad thing, but when we need some halfcourt play don't expect it from them and especially don't expect consistency and last but not least expect fouling.

All that said, I still love watching Josh and Tyler play. Thoughts?

ballism
11-15-2010, 06:39 AM
Agreed, I'd much rather see someone like Hickson taking those PF minutes as well. I hope that's how we spend all that cap space or the pick.
That's without judging upside/off the court issues - I remember there was some issue with Hickson and Scott early in the season? Can't remember the nature of it.

owl
11-15-2010, 09:18 AM
Peck posted....Red sky at night sailorís delight, Red sky in the morning sailors takes warning


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or said another way, Evening red and morning gray sends a traveler on his way, but evening gray and morning red brings rain down upon his head.

As far as what is really keeping this team from being ultimately successful I believe it is having no interior offense other than Roy. If the PF position or the back up center was
able to help out in the interior this team would have some real hope of going into the playoffs and making some real noise. Can Josh or Tyler fill that role, I don't know. I do know the Pacers having nothing to back up Roy so as of right now since there is no one on the roster who can help out. That should be a bigger priority than any other, including PF.

Unclebuck
11-15-2010, 09:24 AM
Ideally Josh should be our 8th or 9th man coming off the bench for 10-15 minutes a game to add a spark. I think asking and expecting him to be a starter is more than he can handle. But Tyler is not ready yet - and we have no one else. Really as simple as that. I'll add more in a few.

As I metnioned after the game, the blowout of Denver taught me nothing about this team and I don't think it has any real value to the team. One could argue it might not have been a good thing for this team. The Nuggets had nothing to give defensively and when a team plays defense like the Rockets did the Pacers struggle to get decent shots. I still think the pacers overall are a pretty easy team to defend in the halfcourt - but not as easy as the past two seasons.

Defensively I see some improvement and at times they have played well in stretches - at Cleveland second half and third quarter of the home opener. The problem is they don't play consistantly well

Brad8888
11-15-2010, 10:09 AM
Ideally Josh should be our 8th or 9th man coming off the bench for 10-15 minutes a game to add a spark. I think asking and expecting him to be a starter is more than he can handle. But Tyler is not ready yet - and we have no one else. Really as simple as that. I'll add more in a few.

As I metnioned after the game, the blowout of Denver taught me nothing about this team and I don't think it has any real value to the team. One could argue it might not have been a good thing for this team. The Nuggets had nothing to give defensively and when a team plays defense like the Rockets did the Pacers struggle to get decent shots. I still think the pacers overall are a pretty easy team to defend in the halfcourt - but not as easy as the past two seasons.

Defensively I see some improvement and at times they have played well in stretches - at Cleveland second half and third quarter of the home opener. The problem is they don't play consistantly well

37 assists, 56 field goals against Denver. The shot quality wasn't great despite O'Brien saying it was, but it was better than most of the Pacers games see, and it was because there was ball and player movement that hasn't really been seen as much in any of the rest of the games so far this year, as usual. That should be the lesson learned from that game.

You are right, though, the Denver game has no bearing on what to expect from this team, because some passing and player movement happened as opposed to dribble penetration. It just represented a little more what should be done offensively, in the absence of playing through the post after making perimeter passes to take pressure away from the post as we had been led to believe was going to happen. Defensively, the team basically played the ball instead of the man or the team concept, and Denver was tired enough that they didn't burn the Pacers even worse than they did.

Regarding Josh, he needs to go back to playing the game he always has in the past, as opposed to midrange and out. He needs to stay out of the high post area for the most part and concentrate his efforts on bringing energy and rebounding, and hope that our scoring guards and wings feed him inside where he can get to the rim with the aggressive moves that he has made in the past.

And, obviously, Josh needs to get up 500 free throws a day (not 3's) with a mindset like that of Reggie Miller or Larry Bird, because if he cannot make free throws consistently he will have a difficult time getting playing time even if he magically is allowed to play his game. In other words, he needs to model himself after Hansbrough in that respect if he is to stay ahead of him in the rotation, and I doubt that either of those things occur.

In honor of O'Brien's chess hobby, you cannot use a rook as a bishop. It just doesn't work that way.

Unclebuck
11-15-2010, 10:26 AM
the Pacers even worse than they did.

Regarding Josh, he needs to go back to playing the game he always has in the past, as opposed to midrange and out. He needs to stay out of the high post area for the most part and concentrate his efforts on bringing energy and rebounding,


I agree with the rest of your post - but just wanted to comment on whether Josh should be in the high post. I think that is where he is best, he's one of our best passers and some of our best possessions are when Josh feeds Roy from the high post. So I would keep that as part of our offense. Plus from the high post he can still dash to the offensive glass to get some O rebs

Brad8888
11-15-2010, 11:36 AM
I agree with the rest of your post - but just wanted to comment on whether Josh should be in the high post. I think that is where he is best, he's one of our best passers and some of our best possessions are when Josh feeds Roy from the high post. So I would keep that as part of our offense. Plus from the high post he can still dash to the offensive glass to get some O rebs

I don't mind seeing him there on occasion, just not as much as he is, or Roy for that matter. The high / low game with Josh and Roy is a good idea, but Roy is not often down on the block for Josh to deliver the ball to, and when he is it generally takes long enough for anyone besides Josh or Dunleavy to see him that other bigs put their bodies on Roy and keep him from establishing his position because he lacks the physical presence to stop them from pushing him out of position.

Another thing about Josh in the high post, Josh does seem to be working on his screening, and is beginning to improve a little there, so there is another reason to have him in the high post to facilitate Collison in the PnR. He can pass, yes, and I guess in the absence of playing the better passing Price at point guard, somebody besides Dunleavy has to pass to initiate offense for the scorers, and that might as well be Josh and Roy in the high post for lack of a traditional point guard in the lineup.

I guess I just miss the Josh that had a chance to shine in the league because of his energy and ability to disrupt opponents with his quickness on both ends of the court. He is doing what he has been told, he just hasn't been as effective as he can be due to lack of experience as a big playing what amounts to being the small forward position, and doing so without a jump shot.

It is no wonder Josh shoots poorly, and shoots so few free throws (which is a blessing at this point), and scores so little that Posey is going to end up as the starting "stretch 4" despite Josh overall being a better player than Posey at this point defensively and from a rebounding and passing standpoint. Posey can score sometimes, and that will be the deciding factor.

Since86
11-15-2010, 01:14 PM
Josh's biggest problem, as far as scoring, is that he's too passive. Again, that's been his MO since he first stepped foot on Duke's campus.

When he catches the ball, he immediately beings looking for the pass. If he doesn't make the pass within the first 4-5secs, he panicks, and often times just throws it up towards the rim. It's a hurried shot, he doesn't get his feet/shoulders squared up and he only looks at his target as he's on his way up to take the shot. He needs to be able to recognize where in the offense he can shoot comfortably from, and knock down a couple shots from that spot before he starts to automatically look to pass.

Attak the defense. Catch the ball, square to the basket. Cutters will get open more often because the defense will have to pay attention to the ball more. Right now, they're just getting in full deny mode, because they don't need to worry about him driving to the basket, nor make a consistant jumpshot.

He doesn't have to even score to make the defense react. Just make them think he can score.

LoneGranger33
11-15-2010, 02:28 PM
Well at the 8 game mark we are a .500% ball club with a record of 4-4. That’s not really a bad record nor technically is it a good record either but with the new mix of players, plays & even new assistant coach’s I think most of us can look objectively at this and say that we are not really upset by the record as it stands.


Lots of good stuff there. One thing that jumped out at me:

"If we can come out of our next 8 games at .500% I think you have to look at that as win for our club."

I think that should read 'a tremendous win' for our club. Really, expecting to win more than two or three of those games seems like a stretch to me. But hey, if we beat Atlanta, I'll change my tune on that.

The problem with being .500 after the first eight games is that there were three very winnable games that we lost to undermanned or overworked teams. We may be happy ending the season as a .500 team, but we can't be happy with .500 after the current run of games. I'm certainly not.

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 02:29 PM
So, to conclude my mini-rant I just want to say that when someone compares Josh and Tyler to someone like Al Horford or Chris Bosh think twice about it because Tyler and Josh mostly get buckets by filling the lanes on the break, broken plays, off of offensive rebounds, or whatever. That's not a bad thing, but when we need some halfcourt play don't expect it from them and especially don't expect consistency and last but not least expect fouling.

All that said, I still love watching Josh and Tyler play. Thoughts?


I agree , I dont like when people point ou the stats of two players combined. Its like saying if only Vince young ahd an arm like Drew Brees. I dont think you can compare two players to one. I think over the long haul Tyler will be able to provide more than Jeff, due to him having an offensive game. Josh seems to get by on "hustle points", which I think makes him a decent reserve.

Whether its a PF, SG, SF, whatever, I think more importantly we need another all star to Granger, regardless of position

Speed
11-15-2010, 02:52 PM
The problem with being .500 after the first eight games is that there were three very winnable games that we loss to undermanned or overworked teams. We may be happy ending the season as a .500 team, but we can't be happy with .500 after the current run of games. I'm certainly not.


Agreed, I'm not happy either.

I guess I can convince myself it's a learning process and this is a step for this group.

Otherwise, those 3 games you are talking about are exactly why teams like the Pacers don't make the playoffs.

Hopefully, the future will show a progression for this team and they can win those games later in the season.

The down side is, the combo of opponent and being shorthanded, time between games, and being at home for two of those games doesn't come around often in an 82 game season.

----------

A couple of things here, the shots are good shots, imo, for this team. This team is a jumpshooting team as constructed. It reminds me of the old Arizona teams, one night they are one of the best teams in the country, the next one of the worst. All predicated on if their are falling.

It's why I love defense, defense doesn't have an off night.

-----------

Otherwise, this group is fun to watch offensively, but they haven't played a good defensive team, who is playing their best defense yet. I ahve a feeling when they play Boston, we'll see 10 different kinds of ugly.

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On Josh, I don't want him taking more than 5 shots a game, I want him setting picks and rebouding. I'm not down on him really much at all offensively. I am down on him in the last couple of games for his defensive intensity and running the floor though. He needs to be more active on that side of the ball, imo.

I think Conrad Brunner eluded to this before the season started that JMac's hold on the starting PF position might not last past Feb. once Hansbrough gets up to full speed. I tend to believe that.

-----------

Posey/Murphy is ridiculous in comparison. Posey drew more charge in the last game (3 I think) than Murph would in a month. I bet I'm not exaggerating much. I like Posey play good D, I thought he stifled Hickson last game and kept him from being a factor at all. Plus the charge thing is gets other players to try to do the same thing, Danny even drew one last game.

I am okay if Obie play Posey and if his shot isn't dropping or he doesn't have the right match up to make an impact defensively, bench him.

--------

TJs been, imo, by far their best defensive back court player in spurts. He's starting to even play wicked help side, using his ridiculously quick feet to cut guys off. I thought his defense at the end of the Cleveland game was the mostly the difference.

-----------

Lastly, Dunleavy needs some credit defensively. Last few games his giving you some possessions against the stronger 2/3. He's contesting jump shots, not getting beat off the dribble. Not sure what more anyone could hope for honestly. I think it's his best defensive stretch since he's been here.

The only disclaimer on my praise for TJ and Duns defense is the opponents.

----

Overall, I'm leary of the 4-4. It's really the softest stretch of schedule I can remember in a long long time.

Individually, I see a bunch of stuff I like. As a team, I see a long way to go, I guess.

pacer4ever
11-15-2010, 03:50 PM
The problem with being .500 after the first eight games is that there were three very winnable games that we lost to undermanned or overworked teams. We may be happy ending the season as a .500 team, but we can't be happy with .500 after the current run of games. I'm certainly not.

we should be 6-2 but we :censored: up. Could come back and bite us it the back.

MyFavMartin
11-15-2010, 05:13 PM
FYI 0.500% is one win for every 200 played. :tongue:

MyFavMartin
11-15-2010, 05:15 PM
I'd really like to see Foster alongside Hansbrough and Solo riding the bench.

Peck
11-15-2010, 05:26 PM
Peck posted....Red sky at night sailorís delight, Red sky in the morning sailors takes warning


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or said another way, Evening red and morning gray sends a traveler on his way, but evening gray and morning red brings rain down upon his head.

As far as what is really keeping this team from being ultimately successful I believe it is having no interior offense other than Roy. If the PF position or the back up center was
able to help out in the interior this team would have some real hope of going into the playoffs and making some real noise. Can Josh or Tyler fill that role, I don't know. I do know the Pacers having nothing to back up Roy so as of right now since there is no one on the roster who can help out. That should be a bigger priority than any other, including PF.

Cool, I had never heard that version before.

15th parallel
11-15-2010, 09:24 PM
The problem with being .500 after the first eight games is that there were three very winnable games that we lost to undermanned or overworked teams. We may be happy ending the season as a .500 team, but we can't be happy with .500 after the current run of games. I'm certainly not.

Inconsistencies at the beginning of the season are the ones that can be considered due to the lack of familiarity and the number of young players on this team right now. The fact that they can't win 3 in a row and having on and off shooting nights tells us that they are currently streaky right now, especially on their shooting and offense.

I'm currently happy right now given that many expected them to start slow but they managed to have a 4-4 record. And besides, it's not like strong teams don't even slow down at some point during the season so this season is currently unpredictable right now. Who would've expect that NO will still be unbeatable and Miami is barely 0.500, so right now I'll wait and see how things will shape up as the season progresses.

skip2mylou
11-16-2010, 04:54 AM
Once again good post, I'm starting to think that is true that we actually have the worst starting PF in the NBA, I like Josh but he hasn't done much lately.

Regarding Posey and the comparison with Murphy I agree that his defense is a bit better but again he should be an small part in the team and shouldn't be playing that Many minutes.



Who do you want to see on the court then?

You think Mcroberts is the worst starting PF, but you also don't want too see Posey. We ain't got much else, other than Hansbrough, you want him to play 40 minutes?
I'am really not an O'brien fan. Not at all. But he ain't got too much options there...

Personally, I just want to win this season...so whoever helps us the most with that, should play, imho.

ballism
11-16-2010, 05:10 AM
Who do you want to see on the court then?

You think Mcroberts is the worst starting PF, but you also don't want too see Posey. We ain't got much else, other than Hansbrough, you want him to play 40 minutes?
I'am really not an O'brien fan. Not at all. But he ain't got too much options there...

Personally, I just want to win this season...so whoever helps us the most with that, should play, imho.

Next Year's Cap Space :p

Baring a trade we are who we are this year. Untill Hansbrough learns the system, we are probably the weakest at PF in the league. Debatable when it comes to Pistons maybe since they have a SF playing it. And Raptors, although I loved Amir Johnson there, and he's emerging as their main PF atm.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 06:40 AM
Who do you want to see on the court then?

You think Mcroberts is the worst starting PF, but you also don't want too see Posey. We ain't got much else, other than Hansbrough, you want him to play 40 minutes?
I'am really not an O'brien fan. Not at all. But he ain't got too much options there...

Personally, I just want to win this season...so whoever helps us the most with that, should play, imho.

If Posey starts he is still going to be the worst starting PF in the NBA, I rather have Mcbob or Tyler starting, lets find out what we have and play the young players, let Roy, Collison and the young guys finish games.

skip2mylou
11-16-2010, 06:43 AM
Next Year's Cap Space :p

Baring a trade we are who we are this year. Untill Hansbrough learns the system, we are probably the weakest at PF in the league. Debatable when it comes to Pistons maybe since they have a SF playing it. And Raptors, although I loved Amir Johnson there, and he's emerging as their main PF atm.

Yeah, you're probably right.

I'am kinda surprised Granger is not playing the 4 more. You would think O'brien would play him more there, with our weak other options at PF, especially with his preferred stretch-4 offense.

skip2mylou
11-16-2010, 07:05 AM
If Posey starts he is still going to be the worst starting PF in the NBA, I rather have Mcbob or Tyler starting, lets find out what we have and play the young players, let Roy, Collison and the young guys finish games.

I would like to see Granger more at PF(especially against back-ups). That would open up playing time for George and others.
Give Mcroberts all the minutes at back-up center, play Posey/Hansbrough/Granger at the 4.

That way, we would never see S.Jones again, and the young guys more.

I think that's a win in development, and, at the same time, would help us win more games.

Hoop
11-16-2010, 04:20 PM
Tyler Hansbrough needs to rebound better on both ends of the floor. For the life of me I can not figure out why this guy is not averaging 9 rebounds a game. He is huge so he clears out space, he blocks out fairly well that I can tell; now he is not a leaper but good positioning should take care of that problem. This is something he is going to have to work on as the year moves on.

Dale Davis only averaged above 8.9 Rebs a game 5 times in 16 years while getting between 28-35 mpg in those 5 years. Dale was only over 9.9 rebs one single time.

How's Tyler suppose to come close to that in 17 mpg.

cordobes
11-16-2010, 05:35 PM
I would like to see Granger more at PF(especially against back-ups). That would open up playing time for George and others.
Give Mcroberts all the minutes at back-up center, play Posey/Hansbrough/Granger at the 4.

That way, we would never see S.Jones again, and the young guys more.

I think that's a win in development, and, at the same time, would help us win more games.

Once George is ready to log on consistent minutes, I'd like to see that happening too.