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vnzla81
11-14-2010, 02:53 PM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2010/11/14/stephenson-and-price-will-have-to-wait-their-turn/


Written by
Mike Wells

CLEVELAND – One of the questions I get asked on a regular basis is when will A.J. Price and/or Lance Stephenson get some playing time.

A the rate things are going, it’ll take an injury to one of the players in front of them for that to happen.

“I thought O’Brien said Price was the best player for them in the preseason?” a fan recently asked me.

He was their best player, according to O’Brien, but T.J. Ford was also injured most of the preseason.

I was told Ford was playing better than Price in practice prior to his hamstring injury.

People continue to voice their displeasure over Ford.

I have to disagree with those people about Ford. He has had a very solid start to the season (contract years will do that to you).

Ford deserves to be in the rotation. He got the Pacers back in the game in the third quarter against the Houston Rockets on Friday and O’Brien went him for more than half of the second half against Cleveland on Saturday.

The Pacers want to win as many games as possible. Ford will help them do that. He’s also helping Darren Collison get through the ups and downs of learning O’Brien’s system.

This isn’t a knock on Price, who had a very good preseason, but Ford and Collison are the guys to roll with right now.

Things are a little different with Stephenson.

He’s gradually getting better, but he still has work to do on the defensive end.

There’s also a maturity issue with the 20 year old.

He doesn’t always go all out in practice and he has a problem staying focused.

Those things won’t get Stephenson any playing time, especially since that’s the only place he’ll be able to prove he deserves any minutes.

One of the things that frustrates the coaching staff is that they constantly have to repeat things to Stephenson.

That gets old after while.

How will the coaching staff be able to trust Stephenson in the game if he can’t grasp things in practice?

Besides, Stephenson’s not better than any of the rotation players at his position.

BringJackBack
11-14-2010, 03:18 PM
I couldn't agree anymore and I'm starting to wonder if Lance is just another Gerald Green... sigh..

Midcoasted
11-14-2010, 03:36 PM
I couldn't agree anymore and I'm starting to wonder if Lance is just another Gerald Green... sigh..

He's a 20 year old who is a second round pick with a ton of potential. I won't be to upset either way.

BringJackBack
11-14-2010, 03:41 PM
He's a 20 year old who is a second round pick with a ton of potential. I won't be to upset either way.

True, but it's just a shame that someone with the pure brute-like body and handles of Lance Stephenson just can't seem to put it together. He has a couple years to get it together but he hasn't really been a PR dream or a hard worker.. If Lance Stephenson was the worker that Roy Hibbert or Danny Granger were he'd have a chance to be a very unique player.

xBulletproof
11-14-2010, 03:46 PM
Lance better pray for no conviction and a ton of improvement to his game over this next 10 months if he wants that 3rd and 4th year of his contract picked up.

Hicks
11-14-2010, 03:48 PM
Yeah, put me down under, "Lance isn't going to work out, court issues be damned." At least we didn't end up trading up for him like they tried to do!

vnzla81
11-14-2010, 03:52 PM
I would like to see what Lance could do for another coach, I'm not ready to let the guy go.

pacer4ever
11-14-2010, 03:54 PM
I would like to see what Lance could do for another coach, I'm not ready to let the guy go.

i bet scott skilles could get him better at defense

righteouscool
11-14-2010, 04:05 PM
I think a lot of Stephenson's issues on the defensive end are because they are trying to play him out of position at point guard. In pre-season he seemed fine when he was guarding shooting guards.

PaceBalls
11-14-2010, 05:23 PM
It's not Lance's body, ability or what position he is playing that makes him bad, it's his brain.

Whenever I have seen him play he seems to have no clue what he is doing, no idea about defensive rotations or switches or weakside help. On offense it is almost as bad. He just tries to create his own offense instead of what everyone else is doing as a team.

That said, the kid is young and can learn. I hope he gets it, because there is no denying the raw talent he has.

Kaufman
11-14-2010, 05:36 PM
If Lance can't learn and isn't motivated, then it doesn't matter who the coach is.

Scott Skiles sure ain't gonna coddle him.

Strummer
11-14-2010, 08:10 PM
Seriously? We're all going to give up on Lance 8 games into his rookie season? Just because Mike Wells is impatient?

Remember, this is the same Mike Wells that was whining weekly because Bird wasn't moving fast enough to acquire a point guard. Was Mike Wells right in his criticism? Nope, Bird took his time and had the point guard we all wanted, well before the season started.

So do we need to give up on Lance already just because Mike Wells is impatient? Nope. As far as I'm concerned he can take as much time as he needs. He's not a 4 year college player like Hans, Rush and Hibbert. He's a kid. I'm sure the basketball minds with the Pacers understand that. It's unfortunate that Mike Wells doesn't.

Sandman21
11-14-2010, 10:20 PM
I know Larry is no fan of the NBADL, but for Lance, it may be the best thing for him at this point.

MLB007
11-14-2010, 10:32 PM
It's not Lance's body, ability or what position he is playing that makes him bad, it's his brain.

Whenever I have seen him play he seems to have no clue what he is doing, no idea about defensive rotations or switches or weakside help. On offense it is almost as bad. He just tries to create his own offense instead of what everyone else is doing as a team.

That said, the kid is young and can learn. I hope he gets it, because there is no denying the raw talent he has.

Can you say Johnny Bender? :D

pacer4ever
11-14-2010, 10:36 PM
Can you say Johnny Bender? :D

bender was because he had bad knees he grew to fast

BlueNGold
11-14-2010, 10:46 PM
I would have cut Lance and kept Magnum Rolle. Great NBA body, but it's a waste of time trying to turn him into an NBA player. He simply doesn't fit a position.

The kind of potential Lance has is diminished because of his flaws. It's like Sarunas. Very talented at some things, but fatally flawed as an NBA player.

Sookie
11-14-2010, 10:58 PM
*sigh* So Ford earned it in the first week of practice when Price had just been cleared to play basketball after knee surgey..And I'll note, Ford's been good some games and bad others, but he hasn't been as good as AJ was in preseason.

Lance..it concerns me that there is some practice issues. And I think he's a flawed player, personally. He's got one on one talent, but as said, he's flawed. We'll see how his future goes.

SMosley21
11-14-2010, 11:40 PM
I would have cut Lance and kept Magnum Rolle.

and you would have cost the team a couple million dollars. Congrats, you'd be a terrible GM.:dance:

PacerGuy
11-15-2010, 12:01 AM
The emotional swings on this board are worse then any woman I've ever been around (& that's say'n something!).
Let me ask a few questions:

-Is it a surprise that Lance (20 yrs old, 1 Yr College ball) is having dificulties understanding & executing Professional game schemes?
NO!
-Is it a surprise a second round rookie is not getting minutes over several productive proven vets?
NO!-
Is it a surprise that a young player is having dificulties staying focused, is mentally still adapying to the NBA "Lifestyle, distinguishing what they have always known as a "game" is now a "job"?
NO!
-Is it surprising that a player who is learning a new position on top of a new offense & defensive and adjusting to a new lifestyle, is struggling?
NO!
-Is it surprising that a young man with the "outside personal issues" Lance has has, and who missed a big portion of off-season work "in exile" may not be as focused or ready as an NBA coach might want?
NO!
-Is it a surprise after knowing what we know about Lance that he might not be the "sharpest knife in the drawer"?
NO!

If you answered "NO" to the above, then what is all the fuss?
In a perfect world, Lance was a "luxery pick" anyway. Sure, there was hope & thoughts of Lance being a contributer, but that was when we thought Ford would be moved & before we aquired D.Collison,and had little to no other options. Yes, getting "NBA ready" player in the 2nd rd. would have been great, but how many times does that happen? Is 8 games into a rookie season really the time to judge his ability to learn & adjust to everything he is having to absorbe, to determine that he is a "bust", and start the tweets/ threads/ posts to abandon ship on Lance already?....
NO!

Bball
11-15-2010, 12:21 AM
I would like to see what Lance could do for another coach, I'm not ready to let the guy go.

I'd like to see what the entire team could do for another coach...

vnzla81
11-15-2010, 12:24 AM
I'd like to see what the entire team could do for another coach...

Yeah that would be nice :laugh:

MLB007
11-15-2010, 01:56 AM
bender was because he had bad knees he grew to fast

If that's what you think then you missed the story.
(He had no grasp of team basketball BEFORE he had the knee problems)
It was well known at the time.
Immense physical gifts.
Clueless what to do with it.

MLB007
11-15-2010, 01:59 AM
I'd like to see what the entire team could do for another coach...

I'd like to see what the entire team can do for this coach...

Brad8888
11-15-2010, 10:32 AM
and you would have cost the team a couple million dollars. Congrats, you'd be a terrible GM.:dance:

IIRC, the contract had been signed prior to the decision had to be made whether to keep Lance. It also, IIRC, was made when the team still needed a ball dominant scoring guard to throw at the point guard position prior to getting Collison for that and accepting the fact that Ford was OK at that too.

The contract for Stephenson was excessive and a waste and had already been spent regardless of whether Lance wears suits behind the bench and travels with the team or if the Pacers had simply paid him his money and told him to move along. Doing so would have freed up a roster spot for a promising young big that could fill that position behind the bench in a suit equally well, but possibly could have figured out a way to rise into the top 12 and get to put a uniform on at least occasionally. Rolle wouldn't have gotten the money, but keeping him could conceivably have been looked at as an attempt to recoup some of the wasted money spent on Stephenson, as well as whatever was spent in making the trade up to get Rolle with the last pick.

So, as it stands, the Pacers wasted both Lance's contract as well as losing Rolle in the process, in essence keeping one pick for the price of 3. Awesome GM we have there, huh? :hmm:

Bball
11-15-2010, 11:11 AM
I'd like to see what the entire team can do for this coach...

That movie has been playing for over 250 times these past 3+ years at the NBA cinemaplex.

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 11:53 AM
*sigh* So Ford earned it in the first week of practice when Price had just been cleared to play basketball after knee surgey..And I'll note, Ford's been good some games and bad others, but he hasn't been as good as AJ was in preseason.

Lance..it concerns me that there is some practice issues. And I think he's a flawed player, personally. He's got one on one talent, but as said, he's flawed. We'll see how his future goes.

LOL

I know that had to make you grit your teeth, when you read TJ was best at practice

I dont know if the coach even believes what comes out of his own mouth

Trophy
11-15-2010, 11:56 AM
TJ has been a good backup. He's not doing anything too special. Just coming in when Darren needs come rest. It's good to have a veteran too.

TJ has also been shooting the ball much better. Maybe he's learning from Darren who can make open 3 pointers.

I would prefer to see AJ become Darren's backup eventually.

As for Lance, we're packed at the guard positions so he'll have to wait it out. I would like to see him in uniform though and to come in and play garbage minutes.

imawhat
11-15-2010, 11:58 AM
TJ won't be injury free for 82 games. AJ will get his time, probably sooner than later.

daschysta
11-15-2010, 12:06 PM
LOL

I know that had to make you grit your teeth, when you read TJ was best at practice

I dont know if the coach even believes what comes out of his own mouth

Or TJ could have actually been outperforming AJ in practice.... It is well known that JOB prefers veterans to younger players. That is a fact. Therefore if TJ was playing comparably to AJ in practice JOB is more inclined to give him run than AJ. So far TJ has been more than adequate as a backup and has played excellent D at times. Sometimes young players DO have to wait their turn, and i'm sure AJ will get his if TJ begins veering off course again. While Jim prefers veterans he has done a fine job of playing youth when they prove that they deserve to play (troy murphy manlove nonwithstanding)

Tyler, Roy, Brandon, AJ last year, Josh this year and PG early on have all gotten more than adequate minutes given their respective production and circumstances.

The coaches main job is to win, especially when the team in questions goal has consistantly been the playoffs, veterans typically fit best into that goal, especially when it isn't like the youth is way better anyhow.

AJ will get his chance, but that doesn't mean that it has to be now, and TJ hasn't made JOB look foolish yet. Preseason is just preseason, I don't take much from it, and while AJ was decent last year, TJ is still the better basketball player IMO, apparently Jim thinks so too.

It isn't like JOB has any reason to be Anti-AJ hell AJ is the better shooter, a quality Jim loves in any player. Aj is coming off an injury as well, and even sookie pointed out that he looked not 100 percent at times.

Sookie
11-15-2010, 12:38 PM
LOL

I know that had to make you grit your teeth, when you read TJ was best at practice

I dont know if the coach even believes what comes out of his own mouth

Oh, I actually think he probably did outplay Collison and Price the first few days of practice (remember he got hurt about three days in)

Price was just starting to play after recovering from knee surgery, and Collison had just gotten his cast off and didn't know the offense. (arguably still doesn't..but I think he runs it better than Ford anyway)

But Ford's smart. He took advantage of a key time..he knows if he hits his shots he'll stay on the court because Obie likes vets (and hopefully wants to showcase Ford)

Hibbert
11-15-2010, 12:50 PM
Tj is playing over AJ cause he deserves it and has earned it, who played better in preseason does not matter one bit. Ford has done very well so far this year.

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 01:47 PM
The coaches main job is to win, especially when the team in questions goal has consistantly been the playoffs, veterans typically fit best into that goal, especially when it isn't like the youth is way better anyhow.

AJ will get his chance, but that doesn't mean that it has to be now, and TJ hasn't made JOB look foolish yet. Preseason is just preseason, I don't take much from it, and while AJ was decent last year, TJ is still the better basketball player IMO, apparently Jim thinks so too.

It isn't like JOB has any reason to be Anti-AJ hell AJ is the better shooter, a quality Jim loves in any player. Aj is coming off an injury as well, and even sookie pointed out that he looked not 100 percent at times.


All good points , and I think TJ is proving he is a capable NBA PG. I just dont understand the coach saying basically. AJ was the best in pre-season, but TJ was best in practice.

Doesnt make much sense to me

Right now though, in all honestyTJ deserves the minutes. He is one of the only Pacers that can create his own shot off the dribble, especially when the shot clock is winding down

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 01:48 PM
Oh, I actually think he probably did outplay Collison and Price the first few days of practice (remember he got hurt about three days in)

Price was just starting to play after recovering from knee surgery, and Collison had just gotten his cast off and didn't know the offense. (arguably still doesn't..but I think he runs it better than Ford anyway)

But Ford's smart. He took advantage of a key time..he knows if he hits his shots he'll stay on the court because Obie likes vets (and hopefully wants to showcase Ford)

I agree

I think even those with PHD's in Psychology cant figure Jim out

Since86
11-15-2010, 01:52 PM
Or TJ could have actually been outperforming AJ in practice....

But that doesn't mean TJ should be getting minutes. Because JOb told us last year that AJ practiced the best out of the 3, and AJ was still the odd man out until an injury forced TJ to sit down.

I'm not complaining about TJ playing right now, because we're told he's playing the better of the two. I'm saying that I have ocean front property here in East Central Indiana for sale if you believe what Jim says to the press.

pacer4ever
11-15-2010, 01:54 PM
Tj is playing over AJ cause he deserves it and has earned it, who played better in preseason does not matter one bit. Ford has done very well so far this year.

:bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs:

Eleazar
11-15-2010, 02:12 PM
The coaches main job is to win, especially when the team in questions goal has consistantly been the playoffs, veterans typically fit best into that goal, especially when it isn't like the youth is way better anyhow.


Exactly, and JOB has proven that he doesn't know who gives this team the best chance to win. Just because they are vets doesn't mean they give you the best chance to win, it just means they are vets. Yes there will be some growing pains if the vets got less time, but overall at worst this team would be as good as when the vets play expect the young players would have more experience. At best they would be competing for the Central Division.

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 02:21 PM
But I do give props to Jim for the way he is using Posey. I forget who said it but they were right in saying he is NOT Troy Murphy

He doesnt rebound as well or shot the 3 as well, but can defend way better than Troy and shot the 3 at a decent clip

Eleazar
11-15-2010, 02:22 PM
Tj is playing over AJ cause he deserves it and has earned it, who played better in preseason does not matter one bit. Ford has done very well so far this year.

I'm calling BS there. Yes, TJ hasn't played poorly, but I highly doubt he is playing better than what AJ would or does.

I can't believe a player goes from being the best PG to not dressing because the now back-up came back from an injury. Either JOB was lieing, highly unlikely because we all saw it with our eyes too, or TJ didn't earn anything.

It seems to me the only three players on this team that have really earned their playing time are Rush, McRoberts, and Hansbrough.

Hibbert is the starting C by default, we have no other C's on the team.

Granger is the face of the franchise, for good reason, but it isn't like anyone even considered him to not be starting.

Dunleavy was given it because of Rush's suspension.

Collison was given the starting spot when he was traded, and TJ was given the back-up because he is a vet.

Posey plays just because he is a vet that can occasionally shoot the 3 and I don't know why else.

Of those players I only think Granger and Hibbert actually deserve their automatic playing time.

Sookie
11-15-2010, 02:27 PM
Exactly, and JOB has proven that he doesn't know who gives this team the best chance to win. Just because they are vets doesn't mean they give you the best chance to win, it just means they are vets. Yes there will be some growing pains if the vets got less time, but overall at worst this team would be as good as when the vets play expect the young players would have more experience. At best they would be competing for the Central Division.

Thank you.

And also, this TJ earned his minutes thing? Really, all that was said was that he outplayed AJ and Darren in the first three days of practice. But that's not earning his time because you should be able to beat out the recovering cripple and the new second year player in the first couple of days.

No one has said anything since, though. I still wonder if TJ is even practicing.

And, look. TJ hasn't been terrible. In fact, he's been good defensively (most of the time) but offensively he's still not a very good point guard. He hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't been good either. He's just been much improved from last season.

dannygranger
11-15-2010, 02:49 PM
I'd like to see what the entire team can do for this coach...

LOL i hope this was a joke

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 03:23 PM
And, look. TJ hasn't been terrible. In fact, he's been good defensively (most of the time) but offensively he's still not a very good point guard. He hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't been good either. He's just been much improved from last season.

Amazing what can happen when you're in a contract year

I think TJ has finally bought into what Jim wants, im sure part of the "infamous summer talk"

cordobes
11-15-2010, 04:01 PM
Had O'Brien shut down Murphy last season to play more the likes of McRoberts, you wouldn't have Darren Collison - who's a much better prospect than anyone on your roster with the exception of Hibbert.

Worrying about developing low level young talent is just bad policy. Reminds me of my complains about Wally, Ratliff and Pierce being injured and how that was slowing down Big Al and Rondo's development. Less wins, worse spacing, forcing them to shoulder a bigger role that they should at that point of their career. Many would write me back saying "no Wally, we need to develop Ryan Gomes, he'll be in our future". Ryan Gomes, Delonte West, Telfair, Powe, Tony Allen... you can't focus on developing that kind of players. That level of player come and goes, it's always available for part of the mid-level every Summer. And some of those guys are good players, quality rotation players, fringe starters. D-West would do wonders for Miami as theire starting PG. But they didn't' need all those minutes, Ryan Gomes isn't a better player today because he played 35mpg all those nights. Future backups don't need to be playing 30mpg on a regular basis - in most cases it will hurt them more than help. And it may hurt their teammates that can become future key cogs in the team.

Scarifying whatever - wins, the trade value of a vet, an environment where the best players get to play, having the young players filling roles they can actually handle and not developing bad habits - for the sake of giving minutes to future rotational players isn't worth it and it rarely helps those guys to develop their games.

You sacrifice stuff to develop high-quality talent. The others guys will develop in whatever minutes they are able to get. The age of non-elite role-players is irrelevant. The reason young role-players projected to be role-players are good to have is their salary, not their upside.

cchobot
11-15-2010, 04:17 PM
Amazing what can happen when you're in a contract year

apologizing in advance for the following rant... but

TJs contract year IS a factor and yet another reason why AJ SHOULD be playing right now. All of the reasons AJ supposedly "shouldn't" be playing make no sense at all.

Let's just SAY for the sake of argument that TJ and DC are performing as well as AJ in practice consistantly.

Why would you want TJ to be logging ALL the backup minutes knowing there is NO WAY he is even here next year? Especially if AJ has showed promise as an ideal backup???

Saying they're "showcasing" TJ doesn't make sense. That is the definition of insanity as they tried to do that ALL LAST YEAR with no results.

At this point they're not fooling anybody. TJ is what he is. Every team in the league knows it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing for TJ, he's a decent backup PG and I'm sure a team needing just that will pick him up before the deadline (no thanks to the "showcasing").

So all we're really doing here is hurting the development of a young player by giving him ZERO minutes. Excellent.

I'll forgoe the reviving of the "Please trade AJ" thread I started awhile back but sooooo frustrated with this situation and lame responses as to the reasoning behind AJ not dressing.

Thankfully AJ doesn't lack the mental toughness to endure the current regime and still be clutch when he finally does get the PT he should...

ok... rant over...

Since86
11-15-2010, 04:22 PM
Had O'Brien shut down Murphy last season to play more the likes of McRoberts, you wouldn't have Darren Collison - who's a much better prospect than anyone on your roster with the exception of Hibbert.

Yep, you're right. Murphy magically changed into a total different player. He just wasn't a good 3pt shooter, pretty good rebounder, and a horrible defender before he got to Indy.

He just completely changed his game prior to last season.

Troy Murphy didn't land the Ps Darren Collison. His contract did.

cordobes
11-15-2010, 04:27 PM
Yep, you're right. Murphy magically changed into a total different player. He just wasn't a good 3pt shooter, pretty good rebounder, and a horrible defender before he got to Indy.

He just completely changed his game prior to last season.

Troy Murphy didn't land the Ps Darren Collison. His contract did.

The Nets didn't want an expiring contract - they already had the cap space itself. If they did, they could have traded for Dampier instead - an expiring contract already paid. Murphy on the final year of his contract landed Collison, but Murphy on the final year of his contract after posting up 4/2 for a season would have landed Collison? Doubtful.

So, Murphy didn't improve because he was playing. But veterans who aren't playing are tougher to sell. Wizards need to play Arenas and give him touches because if he proves he can still play at his former level or close to it, he'll become much easier to trade.

For example, if Ford was playing last season at the level he's playing on this one, maybe the Bobcats owner would have been more welcoming about that trade.

Since86
11-15-2010, 04:40 PM
Really? Are we talking about the same TJ Ford?

Last year in 25mins he averaged 10.08 pts on 44.5% shooting (16.0% from 3 mind you), 3.2 rebs, 3.8assists, 0.9 steals, 0.2 blocks, and 1.91 TOs.

This year he's just blowing those numbers away. 18.2 mins, 5.8 pts, 44.2 fg% (44.4 3pt%), 2.0 rebs, 3.5 assists, 1.0 steals, 0.6 blocks, and 2.0 TOs per game.

Yep, you're right. He's just playing so much better than he did last year.......

Mackey_Rose
11-15-2010, 04:43 PM
Really? Are we talking about the same TJ Ford?

Last year in 25mins he averaged 10.08 pts on 44.5% shooting (16.0% from 3 mind you), 3.2 rebs, 3.8assists, 0.9 steals, 0.2 blocks, and 1.91 TOs.

This year he's just blowing those numbers away. 18.2 mins, 5.8 pts, 44.2 fg% (44.4 3pt%), 2.0 rebs, 3.5 assists, 1.0 steals, 0.6 blocks, and 2.0 TOs per game.

Yep, you're right. He's just playing so much better than he did last year.......

Ignoring the statistics, he is playing much better than last year. He effort defensively has dramatically improved.

Playing for a new contract will definitely contribute to that.

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 04:52 PM
apologizing in advance for the following rant... but

TJs contract year IS a factor and yet another reason why AJ SHOULD be playing right now. All of the reasons AJ supposedly "shouldn't" be playing make no sense at all.

Let's just SAY for the sake of argument that TJ and DC are performing as well as AJ in practice consistantly.

Why would you want TJ to be logging ALL the backup minutes knowing there is NO WAY he is even here next year? Especially if AJ has showed promise as an ideal backup???

Saying they're "showcasing" TJ doesn't make sense. That is the definition of insanity as they tried to do that ALL LAST YEAR with no results.

At this point they're not fooling anybody. TJ is what he is. Every team in the league knows it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing for TJ, he's a decent backup PG and I'm sure a team needing just that will pick him up before the deadline (no thanks to the "showcasing").

So all we're really doing here is hurting the development of a young player by giving him ZERO minutes. Excellent.

I'll forgoe the reviving of the "Please trade AJ" thread I started awhile back but sooooo frustrated with this situation and lame responses as to the reasoning behind AJ not dressing.

Thankfully AJ doesn't lack the mental toughness to endure the current regime and still be clutch when he finally does get the PT he should...

ok... rant over...

I appreciate the rant :) and no problem

I guess I am in the minority but I dont see what has people so excited about AJ Price.

I think he can be a decent back up , but I think at least right now, TJ understands the system much better and is the better choice

Its like I would much rather see PG start but I realize that Dun is the better player , for this system and for right now

Since86
11-15-2010, 05:00 PM
Ignoring the statistics, he is playing much better than last year. He effort defensively has dramatically improved.

Playing for a new contract will definitely contribute to that.

So he still doesn't jump in the air without knowing where he's going? He's taking better shots?

I gave EVERY statistical category from his NBA.com page, because I wanted to show that he's pretty much the same production on every level as last season.

I think he's just being used properly this season. He shouldn't be playing 25mins, he should be playing closer to 15. And that's what is happening. You're confusing playing "better" with playing less. He just doesn't have the time to make the same mistakes that he does, and will continue to make, if you give him more minutes. He's not cutting down on his mistakes, he's just having less time to make them.

Troy Murphy was the same exact player last season as he was in Golden State. TJ Ford is the exact same player that he was with the Bucks.

Players don't change who they are this late in their careers. They are what they are. You just have to decide if your team will be better off with them, rather than without them.

Troy didn't change the way he played, nor did he suddenly start making better decisions. Neither has TJ.

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 05:34 PM
Since86 Posted:
Players don't change who they are this late in their careers. They are what they are. You just have to decide if your team will be better off with them, rather than without them.

Troy didn't change the way he played, nor did he suddenly start making better decisions. Neither has TJ.

Sorry but I disagree 110%

TJ is playing better this year, and I think the main reason is Jim and TJ had a discussion on what was in both their best interest

I think TJ is playing the way JIm wants finally and I would bet his asist to turnover ratio is much better than last years

I also think players can not only improve, but also look better in different systems

cordobes
11-15-2010, 05:47 PM
Troy Murphy was the same exact player last season as he was in Golden State. TJ Ford is the exact same player that he was with the Bucks.

Players don't change who they are this late in their careers. They are what they are. You just have to decide if your team will be better off with them, rather than without them.

Troy didn't change the way he played, nor did he suddenly start making better decisions. Neither has TJ.

I don't think the Nets thought Murphy was a better player. I don't think anyone believes Murphy improved. The point that you may be missing is that they knew he was still the same player.

Here's what I wrote in April about Ford.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=987876&postcount=16


The point is not to make them look better than they are or to try to trick GMs; rather to show that the player still has the potential to offer some value in the right situation. Murphy or Jones are playing as well as ever in his career or close to it; Ford wasn't even close to his former worse - that's the difference. A player who isn't playing at all sees his value deteriorating very quickly.



O'Brien hates Ford and wouldn't have played him a single second if he could, I think, especially considering how little effort Ford was putting on the floor during the entire year - I still remember seeing Hibbert outrunning Ford on the floor several times in one of the first Pacers games I saw this season. In my opinion, the Pacers FO should have forced O'Brien to keep playing Ford and use him in a way that would showcase what he can do for a franchise willing to maximize his talents. Those weeks were Ford dropped out of the rotation (and this late season "injury" as well?) could have been costly for the franchise. Sometimes it doesn't make a difference, but a happy+productive player is easy to deal away. Right now, I'm not sure if Ford can still play at a high enough level even if used the way Mitchell used him in Toronto. I'd be wary of trading for him even if I wanted that kind of player in my roster

And more recently, a few weeks back:


Generally showcasing players is a futile effort.

However, playing Ford this season is one of those exceptions. He missed large parts of the last season and when he played he looked horrible and unfit to be on the court. He had several lingering injuries lately and hasn't played well in more than a year. People start to wondering how much he has declined - not in terms of production, but also in terms of his physical ability to replicate his part performances. It's not that they're going to believe Ford is better than he is, more that they may have doubts he can still be the player he used to be even during part of his 1st season with Indiana. With him out there, GMs can see he's in shape, mentally fit and eager to play the game.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1090581&postcount=28

TJ Ford's work-rate and effort level are absolutely different this season. Last year he was being outran by Hibbert when changing ends to defend. He was absolutely dreadful. He played 50 games. Hit a career low in assists and steals per possession. Couldn't hit a long jumper to save his life. Couldn't even stay healthy. This season he's no better statistically (in many categories) but he's showing signs of life. Showing he can still be useful to some team. Showing he's eager and ready to play. So, I'm more convinced Ford can be the same player he was in Toronto now than what I were a few months back.

vnzla81
11-15-2010, 06:10 PM
I still don't see what some guys are seeing regarding Ford, he looks to me like the same player, he is been always decent and horrible at the same time. By the way his trade value is going to be the same regardless how many minutes he plays, everybody in the league knows who TJ Ford is.

In response to Cordobes about Troy Murphy's value I still think he was valuable to the Nets because he could fill a position in the case their rookie didn't look good and because he was an expiring that could be use to bring Melo or any other big free agent.

Mackey_Rose
11-15-2010, 07:12 PM
So he still doesn't jump in the air without knowing where he's going? He's taking better shots?

I gave EVERY statistical category from his NBA.com page, because I wanted to show that he's pretty much the same production on every level as last season.

I think he's just being used properly this season. He shouldn't be playing 25mins, he should be playing closer to 15. And that's what is happening. You're confusing playing "better" with playing less. He just doesn't have the time to make the same mistakes that he does, and will continue to make, if you give him more minutes. He's not cutting down on his mistakes, he's just having less time to make them.

Troy Murphy was the same exact player last season as he was in Golden State. TJ Ford is the exact same player that he was with the Bucks.

Players don't change who they are this late in their careers. They are what they are. You just have to decide if your team will be better off with them, rather than without them.

Troy didn't change the way he played, nor did he suddenly start making better decisions. Neither has TJ.

Nope you're right. Driving into nowhere with no idea what he is going to do and then jumping and sending a hopeful pass is still his go to move.

My contention is simply that his defensive effort has been so vastly improved that overall he has been playing better than he has at any time in a Pacers uniform. Of course his effort was so poor in the past that there was only one way to go, but in that area, he is much improved.

Sookie
11-15-2010, 07:31 PM
Nope you're right. Driving into nowhere with no idea what he is going to do and then jumping and sending a hopeful pass is still his go to move.

My contention is simply that his defensive effort has been so vastly improved that overall he has been playing better than he has at any time in a Pacers uniform. Of course his effort was so poor in the past that there was only one way to go, but in that area, he is much improved.

He certainly looks more motivated, and so far (I think that'll change) his go to move has worked.

What the showcasing might do though, is make it appear as if TJ is valued highly, which means other teams might feel the need to offer the Pacers more, knowing that the Pacers value him. I think there's two types of values, the talent of the player, and what that player means to a specific team. We may be increasing the second one.

BlueNGold
11-15-2010, 09:25 PM
and you would have cost the team a couple million dollars. Congrats, you'd be a terrible GM.:dance:

Money well spent...although this GM (and apparently all the other GMs picking before the Pacers) would have never drafted him nor given him a penny on a contract.

I understand the Pacers were looking for a diamond in the rough, but they found a turd.

Since86
11-16-2010, 02:18 PM
I think TJ is playing the way JIm wants finally and I would bet his asist to turnover ratio is much better than last years

Did you not see the stats I posted?

His assist/TO ratio is actually higher this year, so far. Not by much, mind you, but it is still higher. Like I said, playing better or playing less?

Since86
11-16-2010, 02:20 PM
Nope you're right. Driving into nowhere with no idea what he is going to do and then jumping and sending a hopeful pass is still his go to move.

My contention is simply that his defensive effort has been so vastly improved that overall he has been playing better than he has at any time in a Pacers uniform. Of course his effort was so poor in the past that there was only one way to go, but in that area, he is much improved.

I can agree with that. But I also think he went from Meh-bad side to Meh-good side.

He's not playing lock down defense, but he's not getting lost. I wouldn't call him good nor would I call him bad. But that's also a pretty low standard, and one that I expect and don't feel needs to be congratulated.

Since86
11-16-2010, 02:32 PM
I don't think the Nets thought Murphy was a better player. I don't think anyone believes Murphy improved. The point that you may be missing is that they knew he was still the same player.

Here's what I wrote in April about Ford.

I didn't quote you're entire post, because I hate when people quote a long post, only to say "agreed" or something short, but I did read all of it.

So really to sum up the argument is that GM's have short attention spans and if it's out of sight it's out of mind? I know that's not exactly what you're saying.

But TJ Ford, nor Murphy, nor any player without a major injury isn't going to rapidly decline in a matter of months. TJ being showcased this year, I can understand. But I just don't see the improvements in his game. I thought he had bad body language last year, but I thought he played the game the way he always played it, except he shot horribly from 3. This year I see the same player with a different attitude, and a 3pt shot that went from horrible to average for TJ.

Murphy isn't in the same discussion though. You can sell Troy Murphy using pure and simple logic, because no one was saying Troy shouldn't play. Hell, there were only a few outliers that were saying that he shouldn't start but the rest of us realized that he had to be the starting 4. (there's no way you could have started McRoberts last year. If Troy was still here he still should have been starting)

But we're talking about a player playing 30+mins a game, when he should have been playing about 24. He still would have shown he was the same player, and you get to play your younger players and let them develop.

skip2mylou
11-16-2010, 02:48 PM
I really like Price, but he's looking for his own shot too much imo.
At least in a Pacers uniform(never saw a college game in my life)..
I don't think of him as a floorgeneral, but rather a scorer.
Buuut, which PG is not in JOB's system?

cordobes
11-16-2010, 06:59 PM
I still don't see what some guys are seeing regarding Ford, he looks to me like the same player, he is been always decent and horrible at the same time. By the way his trade value is going to be the same regardless how many minutes he plays, everybody in the league knows who TJ Ford is.

In response to Cordobes about Troy Murphy's value I still think he was valuable to the Nets because he could fill a position in the case their rookie didn't look good and because he was an expiring that could be use to bring Melo or any other big free agent.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Ford.

Re. Murphy: why didn't they sign Amundson or Warrick or a guy of that kind if all they wanted was a generic PF? They could have signed them to 1 year deals if they offered enough money. Why didn't they go with Humphries and Joe Smith (the guys who have been starting anyway)? It'd save them a lot of money + Courtney Lee. The expiring factor is senseless, they didn't do the deal to get rid of salaries - they already had the cap space. If they really wanted an expiring, they'd just trade for Dampier's very valuable expiring.

I didn't like that deal for New Jersey a bit, but they gave away Lee for Troy Murphy because they want him to be a contributor for them. If they just wanted a PF under an expiring contract, they had cheaper options.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 07:05 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree about Ford.

Re. Murphy: why didn't they sign Amundson or Warrick or a guy of that kind if all they wanted was a generic PF? They could have signed them to 1 year deals if they offered enough money. Why didn't they go with Humphries and Joe Smith (the guys who have been starting anyway)? It'd save them a lot of money + Courtney Lee. The expiring factor is senseless, they didn't do the deal to get rid of salaries - they already had the cap space. If they really wanted an expiring, they'd just trade for Dampier's very valuable expiring.

I didn't like that deal for New Jersey a bit, but they gave away Lee for Troy Murphy because they want him to be a contributor for them. If they just wanted a PF under an expiring contract, they had cheaper options.

Good point

Warick has looked good so far

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 08:11 PM
[QUOTE]We'll have to agree to disagree about Ford.

Re. Murphy: why didn't they sign Amundson or Warrick or a guy of that kind if all they wanted was a generic PF?

Because they wanted a power forward that could stretch the floor for Lopez
and he is also an expiring contract.



They could have signed them to 1 year deals if they offered enough money. Why didn't they go with Humphries and Joe Smith (the guys who have been starting anyway)? It'd save them a lot of money + Courtney Lee. The expiring factor is senseless, they didn't do the deal to get rid of salaries - they already had the cap space.

Why is so senless? they want to use his expiring to make a deal for Melo or another big name player before the trade deadline, you don't make a deal with cap space alone.



If they really wanted an expiring, they'd just trade for Dampier's very valuable expiring.

Why do you make sound so easy? who they were going to trade for Dampier? is just not that easy


I didn't like that deal for New Jersey a bit, but they gave away Lee for Troy Murphy because they want him to be a contributor for them. If they just wanted a PF under an expiring contract, they had cheaper options.

They got rid of Lee because of his long term contract and you are right they were other cheaper offers, but not many of those guys can stretch the floor for Lopez and only be a one year contract.

cordobes
11-16-2010, 08:32 PM
Why is so senless? they want to use his expiring to make a deal for Melo or another big name player before the trade deadline, you don't make a deal with cap space alone.

Of course you do. They don't need to have a salary to match Anthony's salary or something. They can meet salaries by using cap space. Having Murphy instead of cap space complicates a deal for, say, Anthony (unless Denver prefers Murphy to cap relief/trade exception).



Why do you make sound so easy? who they were going to trade for Dampier? is just not that easy


Easier than trade for Murphy. They could have got Dampier for a 2nd rounder. Could have kept Lee and used him in another deal.


They got rid of Lee because of his long term contract

Lee is under his rookie contract. One more year after this one at an extremely cheap $2 millions. A bargain.

As for Murphy being able to stretch the floor, well, that's the point, it was about his talents. I think the rebounding was more important though.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 09:20 PM
Cordobes I'm sorry but I still don't understand your thinking, the could have got Dampier for a second rounder when Dampier was traded to the Bobcats for Chandler? why would the Mavs do this?

By the way how you make a three team trade if you don't have an expiring to match salaries(the New Jersey trade proposal this summer)

cordobes
11-16-2010, 09:30 PM
Cordobes I'm sorry but I still don't understand your thinking, the could have got Dampier for a second rounder when Dampier was traded to the Bobcats for Chandler? why would the Mavs do this?

The Mavs? They could have got Dampier from the Bobcats. The Bobcats waived Dampier, they let him walk for nothing, they'd be willing to trade him for a couple of 2nd rounders. Charlotte sends Dampier and his non-guaranteed expiring contract, New Jerseys sends trade exception + 2nd rounder. Deal.



By the way how you make a three team trade if you don't have an expiring to match salaries(the New Jersey trade proposal this summer)

No need to match salaries when you have cap space.

It's what New Jersey did this summer with Murphy - they got Murphy and his $12 million contract by Lee and his $1.3 million contract. Lee's salary is 1/10 of Murphy's - no match whatsoever.

It would be the same stuff with a trade for Carmelo Anthony.